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00:48:30 <int-e> gah, another wasted ghc build
00:49:28 <oerjan> how so
00:50:18 <int-e> I had copied a file to  mk/build.mk.7.10.1  instead of  build.mk
00:54:12 <oerjan> mhm
00:55:16 <int-e> so I got a full build, but without DYNAMIC_GHC_PROGRAMS
00:55:53 <oerjan> a fully anemic build
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00:58:40 <int-e> paraphrasing #haskell, unsafeCoerce is a fixed point of ($ id)
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00:59:05 <oerjan> whoa
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00:59:23 <oerjan> :t ($ id)
00:59:24 <lambdabot> ((a -> a) -> b) -> b
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00:59:40 <oerjan> :t fix ($ id)
00:59:41 <lambdabot>     Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b ~ (a -> a) -> b
00:59:41 <lambdabot>     Expected type: ((a -> a) -> b) -> (a -> a) -> b
00:59:41 <lambdabot>       Actual type: ((a -> a) -> b) -> b
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00:59:58 <oerjan> HMM
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01:00:39 <int-e> > :t (unsafeCoerce $ id) :: a -> b
01:00:39 <int-e> (unsafeCoerce $ id) :: a -> b :: a -> b
01:00:41 <lambdabot>  <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
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01:00:55 <shachaf> :t let uc :: a -> b; uc = undefined in ($ id) uc
01:00:56 <lambdabot> b
01:01:00 <int-e> but the point is, it's operationally the same as unsafeCoerce, too.
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01:01:03 <shachaf> it has an even more general type
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01:01:25 <int-e> shachaf: but without restricting the type it's liable to crash
01:01:31 <int-e> (I think)
01:01:40 <shachaf> It's liable to crash anyway.
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01:01:49 <int-e> true, there's that
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01:02:45 <shachaf> What's the least fixed point of ($ id) in untyped lambda calculus?
01:03:02 <int-e> maybe unsafeCoerce should really have type  unsafeCoerce :: a.
01:04:51 <int-e> let t = t (\y -> y) in t -- doesn't look useful after unfolding it into a Böhm tree.
01:04:54 <oerjan> shachaf: pretty sure it's bottom hth
01:05:38 <shachaf> oerjan: and what's the greatest fixed point twh
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01:06:07 <oerjan> does there have to be one
01:06:10 <int-e> (meh we're working in different domains)
01:06:29 <shachaf> oerjan: i never said it exists
01:07:12 <oerjan> unlambda v is a bit higher, i think
01:07:25 <oerjan> which is basically fix const
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03:00:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Time Out]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42276&oldid=42248 * Esowiki201529A * (+26) 
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03:37:21 <izabera> a hacker made this almost 3 years ago
03:37:24 <izabera> `` a=abcdef; n= eval 'printf %s "${a[0]"{1..'${#a}'}":(-(++n)):1}"' "$'\n'"
03:37:33 <HackEgo> fedcba
03:37:54 <izabera> and... this is mine
03:37:57 <izabera> `` a=abcdef; n= eval 'printf %s "${a[0]"{1..'${#a}'}":(-(++n)):1}"' "$'\n'"
03:37:58 <HackEgo> fedcba
03:37:59 <izabera> no
03:38:07 <izabera> `` a=abcdef; eval eval printf %s '"\"\${a:"'{${#a}..0}':1}\"' "$'$\'\\n\''"
03:38:08 <HackEgo> fedcba
03:38:09 <izabera> ^ that one
03:39:35 <izabera> mine is much more straigthforward  :|
03:39:45 <izabera> but... it works in bash/ksh/zsh
03:39:51 <izabera> his version only works in bash
03:39:53 <izabera> so yeah
03:39:57 <izabera> kinda happy
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04:51:31 <shachaf> int-e: For monotonic functions does o behave the way I wanted it to with respect to O?
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04:58:10 <Guest24483> coppro: you being a nethack dev is an april fool's, right
04:59:32 <pikhq> Guest24483: IIRC no, he's been involved in nethack for a while.
04:59:42 <Guest24483> I mean actual nethack
04:59:43 <Guest24483> not nethack 4
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05:52:16 <zzo38> Is "Do not destroy" the title of any melody?
05:53:06 <izabera> write one and call it like that
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05:55:07 <zzo38> Footnotes in the book of Psalms in the version I have say that it probably is, although some psalms are just marked "Do not destroy" and it isn't quite clear why; the scholars who wrote the footnotes seem to believe it is probably the title of a melody that is now lost (I suppose, presumably, they had no musical notation at the time so they just named the melody instead).
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07:59:03 <int-e> shachaf: no, you can construct staircase functions with fast growing stairs and still get similar counterexamples to the alternating function one.
08:04:00 <int-e> shachaf: for example, f(n) = 2^2^floor(log_2(log_2(n)) (which maps [2,4) to 2, [4,16) to 4, [16,256) to 16, [256,65536) to 256, etc; it's O(n), not o(n), and n is not O(f)).
08:04:50 <int-e> :t 1
08:04:51 <lambdabot> Num a => a
08:04:55 <int-e> lucky me.
08:07:37 <shachaf> int-e: OK.
08:07:46 <shachaf> Is there an obvious relationship between o and O?
08:08:23 <int-e> other than o(f) being a strict subset of O(f), none that I'm aware of.
08:10:26 <int-e> O(f) \ o(f) has no nice characterization, I think.
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08:43:56 <int-e> wtf.
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08:45:07 <gamemanj> Stuntaneous is yet another unfortunate victim of autojoin...
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08:46:58 <int-e> . o O ( thank irssi for selective ignores... /ignore stuntaneous JOINS PARTS QUITS )
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09:39:51 <Guest61975> hi
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10:20:47 <mroman> hi
10:38:52 <Guest61975> hi
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10:40:35 <Guest61975> heyo
10:44:31 <Guest24483> `relcome Guest61975
10:44:34 <HackEgo> ​Guest61975: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:48:29 <Guest61975> thanks
10:48:31 <Guest61975> so guys
10:48:38 <Guest61975> anyone know art magick?
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12:52:46 <oerjan> > typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy ((((),()),()) => ())
12:52:47 <lambdabot>  <hint>:1:45:
12:52:47 <lambdabot>      parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
12:52:54 <oerjan> > typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy ((((),()),()) => ()))
12:52:56 <lambdabot>      Illegal polymorphic or qualified type: (((), ()), ()) => ()
12:52:56 <lambdabot>      Perhaps you intended to use ImpredicativeTypes
12:52:56 <lambdabot>      In an expression type signature: Proxy ((((), ()), ()) => ())
12:53:04 <oerjan> ok that's still missing
12:53:11 <oerjan> oh wait
12:54:11 <oerjan> > typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy (((),()) :: Constraint)) == typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy ((),()))
12:54:13 <lambdabot>  True
13:00:31 <int-e> > 1
13:00:33 <lambdabot>  1
13:02:34 <oerjan> > let x :: forall a. (a b c ~ (((),()) :: Constraint)) => TypeRep; x = typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy a) in x
13:02:35 <lambdabot>  Not in scope: type variable ‘b’Not in scope: type variable ‘c’
13:02:39 <oerjan> oops
13:03:21 <oerjan> > let x :: forall a. (a b c ~ ((b,c) :: Constraint)) => TypeRep; x = typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy a) in x
13:03:22 <lambdabot>  Not in scope: type variable ‘b’Not in scope: type variable ‘c’Not in scope: ...
13:03:23 <int-e> sorry, going to take away the toy for some minutes.
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13:03:41 * oerjan swats int-e -----###
13:03:46 <oerjan> WORST TIMING EVER
13:04:26 <oerjan> i was trying to see if you could get at (,) :: Constraint -> Constraint -> Constraint  indirectly
13:07:05 <int-e> well, :t understands unicode syntax now (and still prints types in ASCII)
13:07:22 <oerjan> fancy
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13:08:25 <oerjan> > let x :: forall a b c. (a b c ~ ((b,c) :: Constraint)) => TypeRep; x = typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy a) in x
13:08:31 <lambdabot>  (,)
13:08:38 <oerjan> yay
13:10:36 <oerjan> > typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy (() ~ ()))
13:10:37 <lambdabot>  ~ * () ()
13:10:46 <oerjan> hm ~ has the kind, useless
13:11:30 <oerjan> i think maybe you actually need the () base case to construct ambiguous things of the same kind, but i'm not entirely counting on it.
13:14:29 <int-e> This was amazingly simple. https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/attachment/ticket/8959/ghc-print-unicode-flag.patch
13:15:39 <oerjan> GHC simple? what heresy is this?
13:16:13 <int-e> I know, right?!
13:21:40 <oerjan> Guest24483: you are fooling no one hth
13:24:32 <int-e> fungot: hi there
13:24:32 <fungot> int-e: gah. i've inadvertently gone and added another project to my ever-increasing list. so there's really no difference between eof and), respectively, too.)
13:24:49 <int-e> fungot: I feel your pain
13:24:49 <fungot> int-e: maybe ' bureaucracy' isn't the opposite of partial? fnord?
13:25:02 <int-e> fungot: that's an interesting thought
13:25:02 <fungot> int-e: it's just not the ants.
13:25:07 <int-e> creepy.
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13:51:31 <mroman> fungot: Do your people celebrate easter?
13:51:32 <fungot> mroman: gah. paul graham you program form the bottom up instead of top down...
13:52:32 <int-e> fungot: you're better than a magic 8ball
13:52:32 <fungot> int-e: and it isn't available in debian. debian is known at run-time, but the meta-language in which macros are your fnord bits?
13:52:46 <int-e> fungot: and almost as mysterious
13:52:46 <fungot> int-e: omg c++ rox0rz rofl rofl!!! i want a programming language
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14:22:21 <Jafet> ^style
14:22:21 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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14:25:45 <Taneb> fungot, how are you doing?
14:25:45 <fungot> Taneb: you've all seen it, always building the answer up is much more
14:26:52 <int-e> fungot's on a roll
14:26:53 <fungot> int-e: machinecode is where it's at
14:26:55 <oerjan> hm the most recent girl genius seems to indicate that some time has passed since the battle with the beast
14:27:03 <oren> zzo38: Perhaps at some point, when people tended to reuse parchment after scraping the letters off, some monk thought it a good idea to mark the psalms he needed saved, as "do not destroy"?
14:28:20 <int-e> oerjan: ah well, you know sparks
14:28:24 <oren> And then the mark just got copied from copy to copy, until the reason was lost 
14:28:26 <int-e> oerjan: it's probably less than a week
14:28:32 <oerjan> maybe
14:29:06 <oerjan> oren: this is the bible though, i somehow doubt they'd scribble in it?
14:29:07 <Taneb> oerjan, sparks are involved, progress can go quickly
14:29:15 <int-e> oerjan: how long did building the swinecopter-driven sleigh take, you think?
14:29:33 <int-e> and she did that all almost by herself
14:29:33 <oerjan> 15 minutes? :P
14:29:41 <oerjan> ok maybe an hour
14:30:06 <oren> oerjan: Hmm... my aunt writes notes all over her bible, but i can see how in the era of handwritten books that mght be frownedupon
14:30:18 <oerjan> int-e: but in this case, the monks are also working on it, presumably not as fast
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14:30:38 <int-e> oerjan: I know, she has some serious help there
14:30:47 <int-e> oerjan: and some of those monks are sparky too
14:31:03 <Taneb> oerjan, and the monks are REALLY GOOD at trains
14:32:17 <int-e> I wonder whether Martellus is helping
14:32:48 <oerjan> hm
14:33:35 <oerjan> well, at least a few days though, i'd say, they've had time to calm down some.
14:34:00 <int-e> let's say 3 days and move on :)
14:34:10 <oerjan> and also, gil initially expected them to have gone already.
14:34:17 <oerjan> FINE
14:35:13 <int-e> I mean there still was smoke outside, presumably indicating leftovers from the carnage
14:36:20 <oerjan> right
14:37:11 <int-e> (technically, very little meat was involved... huh)
14:37:51 <oren> Should I evn bother putting "2 years Matlab experience" on my resume?
14:38:04 <oren> Does anyone outside of academia use it?
14:44:47 <int-e> fun site... http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/uk/matlab.do
14:45:48 <int-e> so Matlab is about as popular as R, according to that site.
14:46:44 <int-e> I also thought that many of the toolboxes that Mathworks sells are not really made for academia but for real-life engineering and data analysis tasks.
14:47:02 <int-e> But I have virtually no personal Matlab experience.
14:47:33 <oren> Cool, so my time struggling to work with it in various courses was not wasted. Awsome
14:50:27 <fizzie> I have the same impression, that it does see real-life use.
14:50:39 <fizzie> (Something like Mathematica possibly rather less so?)
14:51:16 <fizzie> I haven't used Matlab outside of an academic context, but that's a pretty small sampling of jobs.
14:51:37 <int-e> I haven't used Matlab inside an academic context ;)
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14:52:41 <oren> Also I'm writing my resume in LaTeX... I wonder if anyone will recognize the Computer Modern font on my resume
14:53:34 <int-e> . o O ( "We have a special paper bin for resumes written in LaTeX." )
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14:53:59 <fizzie> If you want recognizability, Comic Sans would be a good choice.
14:54:13 <oren> Lol.
14:54:57 <int-e> has anyone here played typerider and read the history of comic sans?
14:56:11 <fizzie> You forgot the colon. (But I haven't played it.)
14:56:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Batch]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42277 * Esowiki201529A * (+24) redirect to "Batch file"
14:57:08 <int-e> fizzie: sorry, the colon got stuck in the middle of a level.
14:59:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Esowiki201529A *  moved [[MuFuck]] to [[ΜFuck]]
15:01:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir  * Esowiki201529A *  moved [[ΜFuck]] to [[MuFuck]] over redirect
15:15:43 <oerjan> `unidecode Μ
15:16:19 <HackEgo> ​[U+039C GREEK CAPITAL LETTER MU]
15:16:22 <oerjan> thought so
15:17:06 <int-e> Way to confuse people.
15:17:34 <int-e> Clearly Latin should be the one and only alphabet ;-)
15:18:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir  * Oerjan *  moved [[MuFuck]] to [[ΜFuck]] over redirect: It's a good idea but needs a little change...
15:19:59 <oren> int-e: Clearly if unicode did Han unification they should, for the sake of fairness, do Phoenician Unification as well
15:20:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ΜFuck]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42284&oldid=42282 * Oerjan * (-2) Different template, also bold
15:20:07 <fizzie> The thing with µ and μ is pretty bad.
15:20:31 <oerjan> `unidecode μ
15:20:32 <HackEgo> ​[U+03BC GREEK SMALL LETTER MU]
15:20:37 <int-e> oerjan: did you mean: ΜΦυκ
15:20:59 <oren> th other one is the micro symbol for iupac
15:21:16 <fizzie> Yes, but I can only easily type µ, not μ.
15:21:45 <oerjan> int-e: Heт
15:22:03 <oren> I have greek mapped to `x* where x is any latin letter
15:22:31 <int-e> Я не понимаю
15:22:52 <fizzie> Eat at Pectopah, the most popular restaurant chain of the Cyrillic world. (Ресторан.)
15:23:16 <int-e> ouch.
15:23:18 <oren> Ya ne ponimayu?
15:23:23 <b_jonas> heh
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15:23:51 * oren does not quite know how to read cyrillic
15:24:01 <int-e> oren: it's the universal phrase, you can say that to anybody, anytime
15:24:14 <int-e> oren: nye, but close enough
15:24:36 <oerjan> oren: so how do you write an actual x?
15:24:46 <int-e> `unidecode x
15:24:47 <HackEgo> ​[U+0078 LATIN SMALL LETTER X]
15:24:53 <oren> with the key x
15:25:00 <oerjan> oh wait
15:25:08 <int-e> (ah, not a trick question)
15:25:08 <oerjan> make that an actual *
15:25:34 <int-e> or perhaps an actual `
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15:25:36 <oren> oerjan the ` is part of the sequence, and `` makes a `
15:25:48 <oerjan> ah.
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15:26:13 <int-e> `unidecode ѥ
15:26:14 <HackEgo> ​[U+0465 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER IOTIFIED E]
15:26:21 <int-e> I've never seen that one (except in gucharmap)
15:27:30 <oerjan> ye ye ye
15:27:44 <oerjan> sounds redundant
15:28:40 <oren> Probably an old character they need for historic works... like ゑ
15:29:09 <oren> (that's a hiragana 'we' )
15:29:54 <int-e> airplane crashing in the mountains
15:30:05 <oerjan> again?
15:30:20 <int-e> oerjan: just freely interpreting ゑ
15:30:31 <oerjan> ic
15:30:42 * oerjan needs to catch up on recent changes before it slips off the 30 day limit
15:31:09 <int-e> which 30 day limit, what, huh, stop changing the subject!
15:31:54 <int-e> Oh, on the wiki, I guess.
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15:39:43 <oerjan> yes
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15:41:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Oerjan *  deleted "[[Talk:QWERTY Keyboard Dot Language]]": content was: "xd" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/80.222.241.129|80.222.241.129]]")
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15:43:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Oerjan *  deleted "[[Talk:JSFuck]]": content was: "new Array().filter(callbackfn[, thisArg])" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Esowiki201529A|Esowiki201529A]]")
15:46:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Oerjan *  deleted "[[Batch file]]": Not esoteric
15:47:09 <oerjan> i seem to be brutal today
15:50:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Oerjan *  deleted "[[Batch]]": Redirect to deleted page
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15:55:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Oerjan *  deleted "[[ArrayZ]]": Author request: content before blanking was: "'''ArrayZ''' is a [[brainfuck]]-derived [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:GeorgeEpicGen]] in 2014 to serve one purpose only: to be as short-hand and confusing as possible. It was created over the course ..."
15:59:06 <Guest24483> wait where was the author request
15:59:17 <Guest24483> oh
16:00:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:SuperJedi224]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42285&oldid=42158 * Oerjan * (+51) unsigned, hoping I got time zone right
16:00:38 <oerjan> Guest24483: in the edit summary for the blanking
16:00:44 <Guest24483> yeah I saw
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16:05:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42286&oldid=42165 * Oerjan * (+17) wikify, not a good URL
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16:09:20 <oerjan> stupid clicking noise from the ventilation system seems to be insisting on returning today
16:09:33 <oerjan> (it's always been _occasionally_ like this.)
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16:58:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42287&oldid=42286 * SuperJedi224 * (-18) Fixed source/
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17:27:56 <oren> oerjan: grab the attitude adjustment tool
17:36:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Isaacg1 *  New user account
17:39:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42288&oldid=40981 * Isaacg1 * (+65) 
17:40:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42289&oldid=42288 * Isaacg1 * (+57) /* External resources */
17:42:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42290&oldid=42289 * Isaacg1 * (-3232) /* Documentation */
17:49:18 <coppro> Guest24483: yes, it's part of an april fool's joke
17:49:45 <ais523> how is an april fools joke esolang any different from a regular esolang
17:50:00 <b_jonas> how is it different from a regular joke esolang?
17:51:20 <Taneb> `2014 hello
17:51:21 <HackEgo> No output.
17:51:24 <Taneb> `2015 hello
17:51:28 <HackEgo> No output.
17:51:45 <ais523> `cat bin/2014
17:51:46 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
17:51:48 <ais523> `cat bin/2015
17:51:50 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
17:52:06 <ais523> aha, 2015 is a language that /doesn't/ work in 2015?
17:52:18 <Taneb> Evidently
17:54:22 <ais523> that's interesting in another way
17:54:27 <ais523> although I think http://esolangs.org/wiki/2014 is better
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18:49:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Time Out]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42291&oldid=42252 * Rottytooth * (+61) 
18:49:32 <zzo38> I believe the problem with trying to do FM synth in .XM is that you cannot have a modulator envelope independent from the note frequency.
18:52:57 <zzo38> (Except for having multiple samples, I suppose, but even then it is not exact unless you do it for each note!!)
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19:13:21 <oren> i have just been alerted, by the appearance of a procession outside, that there is a holiday today.
19:14:33 <zzo38> That's because it is Good Friday today
19:17:44 <zzo38> Don't you know these kind of thing?
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19:23:39 <ais523> ooh, Rust 1 beta
19:24:49 <oren> zzo38: I generally lose track of time when I'm really busy 
19:27:03 <zzo38> Someone (who is an atheist) asked me, why is it good (if Jesus is dead)? I said, it is good because you don't have to go to work.
19:27:28 <oren> Hm... maybe it
19:27:37 <oren> is like "god friday"?
19:27:58 <zzo38> I don't know, possibly
19:29:02 * oren afk, getting cotton candy
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19:38:02 <coppro> zzo38: Christian teaching is that Jesus' death is the punishment for humanity's sin. So by the crucixion, the faithful's sins are absolved and they do not need to suffer the punishments themselves
19:39:39 <zzo38> coppro: Yes I know that.
19:41:47 <zzo38> But I think if it is good because sometimes you don't have to go to work!
19:44:08 <Guest61975> I'm back bitches
19:45:29 <zzo38> Some people doubt Jesus's existence. Some others believe he existed but was not resurrected. I am of the latter, but still must say I don't know for sure (I am no historian!); however I also believe that it is pretty irrelevant for today other than as a historical study; the stories were written and now they exist, and they contain a lot of stuff.
19:46:10 <zzo38> You can do good works and you can do prayer and meditation and spirituality and whatever regardless of how accurate the Gospels are.
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19:47:18 <pikhq> And then there's people who believe Jesus was buried in Shingou village, in Aomori Prefecture, Japan.
19:48:00 <zzo38> Well, that seems unlikely to me, but of course I don't know.
19:48:19 <zzo38> Why would he be in Japan?
19:49:13 <pikhq> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/GraveSign.jpg
19:49:21 <pikhq> Lots of stuff but nothing saying *why* Japan.
19:49:41 <pikhq> Japan is one hell of a long way away from Judea.
19:49:50 <pikhq> *Judaea
19:50:27 <zzo38> Yes, that's why it seems so unlikely to me.
19:51:14 <coppro> pikhq: there's also people who believe that he was in North America when he was thought to be dead
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19:51:41 * ais523 wonders how unlikely a statement has to be before /nobody/ believes it
19:51:56 <ais523> at least, it seems likely that such a statement exists
19:52:09 <ais523> the alternative is for some set of people to exist who collectively believe everything
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19:54:13 <pikhq> ais523: "Nothing is false"
19:54:53 <ais523> pikhq: I guess someone believing that either believes everything, or fails at logic
19:55:49 <pikhq> Though unlikely for humans, there hypothetically could exist minds that don't accept modus ponens...
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19:56:05 <zzo38> There are various hypotheses as to what actually happened; some say the body was stolen, although even such people disagree as to how or why. The most likely scneario to me seems that his family took it to bury it in the family tomb and didn't tell anyone since it wasn't important.
19:57:10 <pikhq> zzo38: My belief is just that it's unlikely any individual person would be all that recognizable as "Jesus" from that time period.
19:57:50 <pikhq> Even if there is in fact a "Jesus" from Nazareth it seems rather unlikely said person's life much resembles the myth.
19:58:23 <zzo38> I read somewhere that the Jesus Seminar considers that the amount of resemblance is approx. 20%
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19:58:41 <coppro> pikhq: I think it's fairly likely such a person existed.
19:59:11 <coppro> A prophet is just a cult leader that people never stopped listening to
19:59:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: I tried out the fisheye thing too, since you told me about it.
19:59:41 <pikhq> It's particularly weird some of the various omissions from records that, nevertheless, include other figures that people associate with Jesus...
20:00:03 <pikhq> (for instance, both John the Baptist and the apostle Paul are *quite* well attested.)
20:00:14 <zzo38> My own belief (although I must say I cannot be certain of anyy of this) is that Jesus of Nazareth probably did exist and was a Great Prophet. I do not believe in a final Great Prophet, though (even though most organized religion seems to)
20:00:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: The projection kind of makes this riverside view look like a lake, with the opposite shore being an isle.
20:01:00 <pikhq> But alas, I don't have a time machine.
20:01:13 <pikhq> Piecing shit together from sparse records is a tricky thing. :)
20:01:28 <coppro> zzo38: Most organized religion doesn't actually believe that there is a "final" prophet
20:01:34 <zzo38> Neither do I, and furthermore I am not a historian, so I cannot do it as good as real historians anyways.
20:01:53 <pikhq> coppro: That tends to be common in Christian belief in particular, though.
20:02:02 <pikhq> Assuming one doesn't count the Pope as a prophet.
20:02:08 <coppro> pikhq: Yes, but that is because Jesus is not, in Christian belief, a prophet.
20:02:15 <pikhq> True.
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20:02:55 <pikhq> He is quite specifically a divine being of some sort in that belief system. (precisely which sort depends on sect)
20:03:24 <coppro> yes
20:03:43 <coppro> He is a prophet in Islam, though.
20:04:08 <pikhq> And Baha'i.
20:05:11 <zzo38> Being a divine being of some sort does not seem to imply not being a prophet, as far as I can tell, though.
20:06:21 <coppro> pikhq: true, but "$RELIGION accepts $DUDE as a prophet -> Baha'i accepts $DUDE as a prophet" :P
20:06:27 <pikhq> coppro: :)
20:09:38 <zzo38> coppro: Are you sure about that?
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20:14:26 <coppro> zzo38: no
20:14:31 <coppro> it was facetious
20:17:53 <Guest61975> I'm back bitches again
20:18:19 <zzo38> Guest61975: Explain!
20:18:35 <Guest61975> Screw you, your legs will go POOF!
20:18:48 <Guest61975> *Poofs*
20:20:12 -!- Guest61975 has left.
20:23:11 -!- Guest43464 has joined.
20:23:18 <Guest43464> Back again!
20:23:25 <zzo38> Why?
20:23:54 <Guest43464> Screw you! that's why!
20:25:20 <Guest43464> Anyway
20:25:25 <Guest43464> anyone heard of art magick?
20:25:33 <zzo38> No, I have not.
20:26:10 <zzo38> (I doubt others here have or care much either, but, I don't know. I don't really care much either though.)
20:27:17 <Guest43464> What interests you zzo38
20:27:23 <Guest43464> Wanna talk about it?
20:28:37 <zzo38> I don't really care what you wish to talk about though, but if you ask, well, I have studied many things, but I am interested in mathematics, and do much computer programming to.
20:29:25 <Guest43464> interresting
20:29:32 <Guest43464> please do speak about mathematics
20:30:32 <zzo38> I don't really have much to say right now though
20:30:36 <ais523> Guest43464: you are acting oddly like Eliza…
20:31:43 <Guest43464> Guest43464 knows that it is suspicious but he doesn't know who the hell that is
20:32:23 <oren> I think it is possible they merely made a mistake and he wasn't completely dead when they put him in the tomeb
20:32:39 <zzo38> oren: I did consider that possibility too
20:32:53 <Guest43464> Seriously is that guy Misao Okawa?
20:33:38 <oren> Misao Okawa was the oldest woman in the world until she died a few days ago
20:33:44 <zzo38> I do have one thing to say about logic too, which is that in my opinion, logic is a math, and reasoning is the application of logic; some consider logic and reasoning to be the same thing but I do not.
20:37:43 <zzo38> I don't know what your opinion about these things are.
20:45:39 <oren> In my course "knowledge representation and reasoning" we learned different "logics" including "propositional logic" and "first-order logic"; and then we also learned different processes of "reasoning" which take a set of logical statements and produce a new one from them.
20:46:22 <oren> So sort of "logic" is the language and "reasoning" is the runtime?
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20:49:36 <zzo38> O, that's the course? I haven't heard of that course either
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21:01:09 <oren> zzo38: I dunno if they have that course at other universities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_representation_and_reasoning
21:30:54 <int-e> Oh, this is a nice thought... a self-driving car could avoid parking tickets.
21:31:36 <int-e> (Apparently Tesla produced an April fool's video which embedded this idea.)
21:32:36 <int-e> Hmm. April's fool's video. April's fool video. Glad this grammatical swamp will be irrelevant for the next 360 days.
21:34:44 <ais523> int-e: the idea is that if the time parked is about to expire, it drives off without its owner?
21:36:03 <int-e> ais523: right, or perhaps even later, when a parking enforcement officer approaches.
21:36:47 <ais523> the latter would be dangerous; in the UK, most parking enforcement's done via CCTV nowadays
21:38:01 <int-e> Yeah, but that's a technical detail. I'm picturing a scene in a movie: the officer approaches the car, trying to affix the ticket; the car backs away... It's completely unrealistic, but hilarious.
21:38:29 <int-e> (Useless too because then the license plate information will already have been taken down.)
21:39:44 <int-e> (Ultimately, the car, surrounded by traffic enforcement personnel, would sprout wings and fly away.)
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22:03:55 <oerjan> <zzo38> Someone (who is an atheist) asked me, why is it good (if Jesus is dead)? I said, it is good because you don't have to go to work. <-- that also confused me once.  in norwegian it's called the equivalent of "long friday" instead.
22:05:07 * oerjan is suddenly tempted to ban Guest*!*
22:05:43 <oerjan> especially that pesky Guest24483 
22:06:32 <shachaf> oerjan: you seem to have guest their secret identity
22:07:31 <oerjan> now to find some kryptonite...
22:07:33 <shachaf> I feel like some of these constraint things ought to be filed as separate GHC tickets.
22:07:42 <int-e> Uh, I'm not very Christian. Good Friday is a day of mourning, but also a day of hope?!
22:08:14 <shachaf> presumably the first part is only in the morning
22:08:18 <oerjan> int-e: it was pretty much explained in the logs, i was just commenting on the naming
22:08:29 <int-e> Oh. Good.
22:08:59 <zzo38> I still have the tradition on Good Friday to not eat meat, but still eat fish and chips. (I do not consider myself a Christian either though.)
22:09:21 <oerjan> shachaf: happy passover, or something
22:09:58 <zzo38> I think Passover is on Saturday; it says so on my calendar.
22:10:15 <zzo38> (It is also Holy Saturday)
22:10:56 <oerjan> i was going by wikipedia's main page, also i believe jewish days start at sunset.
22:11:23 <oerjan> i may of course be too early, pesky time zones.
22:11:57 <int-e> Oh Saturday morning.
22:12:23 <oerjan> no, friday evening
22:12:44 <oerjan> well i guess we have saturday morning here, sort of
22:12:50 * int-e wonders where oerjan is right now.
22:12:57 <oerjan> norway hth
22:13:02 <oerjan> just past midnight
22:13:08 <int-e> oh you already agreed, sort of.
22:14:29 <oerjan> something to test which i don't think will work with the new system
22:16:11 <oerjan> > let f :: forall a. Typeable a => Proxy a -> TypeRep; f _ = typeOf (Proxy :: Proxy a)
22:16:12 <lambdabot>  <no location info>:
22:16:12 <lambdabot>      not an expression: ‘let f :: forall a. Typeable a => Proxy a -> TypeRep;...
22:16:17 <oerjan> oops
22:16:41 <oerjan> > let f :: forall a. Typeable a => Proxy a -> TypeRep; f _ = typeOf (Proxy :: Proxy a) in f (Proxy Ord)
22:16:42 <lambdabot>      Not in scope: data constructor ‘Ord’
22:16:42 <lambdabot>      Perhaps you meant variable ‘ord’ (imported from Data.Char)
22:16:48 <oerjan> argh
22:16:52 <oerjan> > let f :: forall a. Typeable a => Proxy a -> TypeRep; f _ = typeOf (Proxy :: Proxy a) in f (Proxy :: Proxy Ord)
22:16:54 <lambdabot>      Could not deduce (Typeable Proxy) arising from a use of ‘typeOf’
22:16:54 <lambdabot>      from the context (Typeable a)
22:16:54 <lambdabot>        bound by the type signature for
22:16:59 <oerjan> there you go
22:17:20 <shachaf> oerjan: just download ghc 7.10 hth
22:17:29 <oerjan> i'm waiting for the platform
22:17:32 <shachaf> I haven't used the Haskell platform for years.
22:17:43 <shachaf> Oh, I guess it's a bigger hassle on Windows.
22:18:24 <oerjan> anyway, it cannot deduce Typeable (Proxy a) from Typeable a  when the kind is polymorphic
22:18:56 <oerjan> in fact, i don't think you can get the kindRep for k from the dictionary for Typeable (a::k) at all
22:19:02 <shachaf> The error is pretty confusing.
22:19:22 <shachaf> > typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy Proxy)
22:19:23 <lambdabot>      No instance for (Typeable Proxy)
22:19:23 <lambdabot>        (maybe you haven't applied enough arguments to a function?)
22:19:23 <lambdabot>        arising from a use of ‘typeRep’
22:19:47 <oerjan> oh hm
22:20:04 <oerjan> isn't that just kind not defaulting
22:20:20 <shachaf> Do you expect it to default?
22:20:32 <oerjan> > typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy (Proxy :: * -> *))
22:20:33 <lambdabot>  Proxy
22:20:47 <zzo38> I thought, if the programming language can be made which is using RDF as the input format, and which includes macros, aspect programming, logic programming, and may be made in such a way to be suitable it can implement the rules and cards of Magic: the Gathering and other similar games.
22:20:53 <oerjan> no, but in my example the kind is known
22:21:10 <zzo38> But with many things figured at compile-time
22:22:14 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
22:25:28 <oerjan> :k HList
22:25:28 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘HList’
22:26:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
22:26:07 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
22:27:12 <shachaf> oerjan: Why is the kind known in your case?
22:27:14 <oerjan> @let pt :: forall a. Typeable a => Proxy a -> TypeRep; pt _ = typeOf (Proxy :: Proxy a)
22:27:15 <lambdabot>  .L.hs:186:8:
22:27:15 <lambdabot>      Could not deduce (Typeable Proxy) arising from a use of ‘typeOf’
22:27:15 <lambdabot>      from the context (Typeable a)
22:27:31 <oerjan> shachaf: because the type is known
22:28:32 <oerjan> hm actually
22:28:45 <oerjan> @let pt :: forall a. Typeable a => Proxy a -> TypeRep; pt x = typeOf x
22:28:46 <lambdabot>  .L.hs:186:8:
22:28:46 <lambdabot>      Could not deduce (Typeable Proxy) arising from a use of ‘typeOf’
22:28:46 <lambdabot>      from the context (Typeable a)
22:28:58 <oerjan> lovely
22:29:02 <oerjan> :t typeOf
22:29:03 <lambdabot> Typeable a => a -> TypeRep
22:29:28 <int-e> oerjan: get ghci 7.10.1 installed already
22:29:33 <oerjan> @let pt :: forall a. Typeable a => Proxy a -> TypeRep; pt = typeOf
22:29:34 <lambdabot>  .L.hs:183:6:
22:29:34 <lambdabot>      Could not deduce (Typeable Proxy) arising from a use of ‘typeOf’
22:29:34 <lambdabot>      from the context (Typeable a)
22:29:46 <oerjan> but i'm also demonstrating :(
22:29:49 <int-e> or at least use private messages
22:29:58 <int-e> you're demonstrating lack of restraint
22:30:05 <oerjan> HOW DARE YOU
22:30:14 <shachaf> typeOf :: Typeable a => Proxy a -> TypeRep -- is also the same error hth
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22:31:19 <int-e> it is a funny one though, this works in ghci...
22:31:50 <oerjan> int-e: without PolyKinds, i assume?
22:31:51 <int-e> :k () :: Constraint
22:31:52 <lambdabot> Constraint
22:31:59 <int-e> oerjan: ah there's that...
22:32:07 <int-e> right
22:38:07 <int-e> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/Yhdd   sheds a bit more light on this. But now it's full of shadows.
22:40:21 <oerjan> int-e: the reason, as i suspect it, is that the new typeable solver doesn't try to transfer kind information at all; in fact TypeRep for the type a doesn't necessarily contain enough information to deduce its kind without access to compiler data.
22:40:43 <oerjan> it's designed such that type application works, but little more.
22:41:08 <oerjan> e.g.
22:41:11 <int-e> oerjan: No, it goes deeper to the foundations. You cannot talk about a type `a` without knowing its kind first. So ghc invents a context k :: BOX => for pt's type.
22:41:52 <int-e> Oh. Nah, there's no contradiction there.
22:42:32 <oerjan> the foundations don't prevent you from hypothetically making a TypeRep that _does_ contain the necessary information.
22:42:39 <int-e> You want something like  class Kindable k => Typeable (a :: k), and ghc doesn't do it that way.
22:42:44 <oerjan> yep
22:42:55 <oerjan> or at least something that fakes it
22:43:19 <oerjan> which is what i discussed with Richard Eisenberg in the trac with test cases
22:43:59 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:44:01 <oerjan> although i guess if no one has made code that was actually broken by this...
22:44:27 <int-e> The downside, perhaps, is that this would have to be explicit in the TypeRep that the Typeable class instances carry?
22:44:55 <oerjan> i guess mixing Typeable with code kind polymorphic enough to need this is not happening
22:45:10 <oerjan> (i could imagine something with DataKinds)
22:45:33 <oerjan> int-e: well yeah, you'd need a representation of the _whole_ kind
22:45:59 <oerjan> rather than just the core kind parameters
22:46:46 * Taneb *yawn*
22:47:32 <oerjan> Taneb: go to bed hth
22:47:41 <Taneb> oerjan, I need to book a train ticket!
22:48:04 <Taneb> And then like put my duvet cover on my duvet
22:48:05 <oerjan> and you need to wait until after midnight to do it?
22:48:15 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
22:48:21 <oerjan> for stupid price reasons?
22:48:44 <Taneb> No, I'm doing it now
22:48:49 <oerjan> fiendish
22:48:50 <Taneb> I was just procrastinating
22:48:59 <Taneb> And now it is suddenly the last minute
22:49:03 * int-e does such things for "I can still do this when I'm too tired to do all this other more interesting stuff" reasons.
22:49:32 * Taneb has booked train ticket
22:49:38 <int-e> Just make sure you got the date correct!
22:50:02 <Taneb> Too late now!
22:50:34 <int-e> I started to type this before you announced it was already done. So I had a "get" there initially.
22:50:38 * oerjan recalls the time he had ordered a train ticket for the day after the DST change
22:51:08 <int-e> Oh, DST ... *twiddles with watch*
22:51:22 <oerjan> int-e: you're a number of days late...
22:51:29 <int-e> no I'll wait 5 more minutes so it doesn't affect the date
22:51:55 <int-e> oerjan: I know. I hardly ever look at my pocket watch, and then usually only to check whether I have to run for the bus.
22:52:40 <oerjan> last time i took the bus i made the mistake of looking at the bus table i'd got by mail
22:52:57 <int-e> (the "pocket" watch is a wrist watch without the bands)
22:53:42 <oerjan> not remembering that they'd had a major budgeting scandal and had had to downsize everything.  so the bus schedule i was going to take had been canceled.
22:53:52 <int-e> :/
22:54:25 <oerjan> fortunately i didn't miss my appointment.
22:57:26 <int-e> there, 1 am now on that watch
22:57:53 <int-e> (it's a bit fast. that's healthy since ... I'm using it to check whether I have to run for buses and the buses tend to be a bit early ;-) )
23:01:06 <oerjan> i try to make sure it's not late, but i don't compensate for anyone else being early
23:02:47 <Taneb> Hmm
23:02:51 <Taneb> My train is at 10:53
23:03:03 <Taneb> It is a 40 minute walk to the station, but I want to stop at the shops on the way
23:03:15 <int-e> so go to bed now.
23:03:37 * int-e tries to remember Taneb's time zone
23:03:43 <int-e> @time taneb
23:03:44 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Sat Apr  4 00:05:42
23:03:54 <Taneb> So I probably want to leave before 10
23:03:58 <Taneb> Probably closer to half 9
23:04:12 <int-e> . o O ( half past 9? )
23:04:18 <Taneb> Yes
23:04:22 * int-e is used to halb 9 meaning 8:30.
23:04:35 <myname> dito
23:04:41 <Taneb> I think "half 9" meaning half past nine is a British thing
23:04:45 <oerjan> oh german is like norwegian then
23:04:45 <int-e> (German speakers are not in agreement about this.)
23:04:50 <oerjan> oh
23:05:04 <ais523> I was taught that in German, "halb 9" meant 8:30
23:05:05 <myname> huh?
23:05:07 <ais523> as an English speaker
23:05:08 <myname> it does
23:05:12 <ais523> however, in English "half 9" would always be 9:30
23:05:23 <myname> halb 9 in germany is 8:30
23:05:47 <int-e> (It's worse about viertel (quarter) 9 and dreiviertel 9 (three quarter 9) meaning 8:15 and 8:45; many states prefer the viertel vor/viertel nach (quarter to/quarter past) versions.)
23:05:50 <Taneb> ais523, I am told that is more a British thing rather than something agreed upon throughout the anglosphere
23:05:59 <int-e> s/about/with/
23:06:25 <ais523> Taneb: English English, then
23:06:25 <myname> int-e: i think "um 1" is more interesting
23:06:35 <int-e> (The logical explanation is that this says how much of the 9th hour has passed.)
23:06:45 <int-e> myname: same explanation
23:06:48 <ais523> almost sure it's the same in the rest of the UK, and I think it's the same in the US too
23:06:55 <myname> there are regions where it is exactly 13:00 and others where it id around 13:00
23:07:25 <ais523> to me it'd just as likely be 1am
23:07:27 <int-e> myname: ah. Ok, for the regions where this means exactly 13:00, that's the point where the 1st hour has passed. (ist um).
23:07:48 <int-e> (I'm used to that meaning.)
23:08:07 <int-e> (The other is "gegen 1")
23:09:02 <myname> "um 1" is meant as "um 1 rum" in the second
23:09:16 <Taneb> I am going to go to bed now
23:09:18 <Taneb> Goodnight
23:09:28 <shachaf> dol um ber ist
23:09:42 <int-e> Taneb: have a safe trip
23:09:57 <Taneb> Thank you
23:10:11 <Taneb> (I'm literally going to the next city over to play D&D)
23:10:12 <myname> to me, the funniest thing is that there are three things that are called pfannkuchen, depending on the region
23:10:22 <int-e> Taneb: don't die ;)
23:10:46 <int-e> and try not to kill any GMs either
23:10:58 <shachaf> Taneb: Which city is the next over?
23:11:02 <Taneb> shachaf, Leeds
23:11:08 <int-e> or DMs, whatever.
23:11:45 <Taneb> shachaf, I'll try
23:12:00 <Taneb> shachaf, (from York)
23:13:04 <Taneb> /s/shachaf, I/int-e, I/
23:13:24 <Taneb> Anyway, I must be off
23:13:27 <Taneb> Goodnight!
23:15:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wordy]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42292&oldid=42171 * Oerjan * (-73) wikify a bit, also we have our own .Gertrude page
23:21:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taworvor]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42293&oldid=42225 * Oerjan * (+10) standardifimogrify section name
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23:31:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42294&oldid=42223 * Oerjan * (-24) wikify a bit, remove some blank lines
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23:37:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]]  http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42295&oldid=42240 * Oerjan * (+9) wikify intro, section headers