and  tags, you use the unicode variants for the opening and closing tags: < and >.
< 1429269769 86837 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :what
< 1429269771 542816 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are unlifted arrays that still use pointers to heap
< 1429269771 867627 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :< isn't unicode
< 1429269794 958897 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: BRAAAAINS
< 1429269799 315672 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Also:
< 1429269802 587645 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :( :t mkShow
< 1429269802 906017 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :09BotPrelude.mkShow : (13a -> 12String) -> 12Show 13a
< 1429269803 637702 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ?
< 1429269809 348132 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I see
< 1429269819 94312 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: well that guy obviously isn't using theirs
< 1429269840 794682 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's taken from a bootstrap how-to website :)
< 1429269850 603112 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: mainly because they're too big to keep in registers/stack
< 1429269859 248975 :edirc!~edirc@unaffiliated/izabera/bot/edirc QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1429269867 274523 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaiu from what i read this morning
< 1429269877 966182 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1429269894 667139 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode <
< 1429269895 927314 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1429269943 464007 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Melvar: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
< 1429269984 804316 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ∀∀∀∀∀∀∀∀∀∀∀∀∀∀∀∀∀
< 1429269991 199748 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok, some actual loop then. let f :: () -> Int#; f x = f x in I# (f ())
< 1429269993 907575 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: presumably the distinction between unlifted and unboxed only makes sense for a non-strict language.
< 1429270017 845943 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hm
< 1429270033 12168 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :strict languages have no values that are lifted.
< 1429270076 29763 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for those of type Lazy' t a .
< 1429270077 373881 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Anyway, fun insight: The Scott topology that we so often use to discuss Haskell semantics cannot distinguish between Int and Int# (the two types are isomorphic; note that I# is strict.)
< 1429270080 818909 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: right, results that never return are allowed.
< 1429270146 947288 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, what do you think would be the best fix for these Typeable problems?
< 1429270147 36720 :fungot!~fungot@82.68.182.43 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: t-rex, i left a party early to go have a bath, and there i don't feel like i look down and notice you're not there cannot help but to fade a bit! i meant real emails.
< 1429270214 67804 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hm
< 1429270240 571521 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, a terminating undefined value is something like `undefined` or `error "foo"`.
< 1429270243 79612 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops
< 1429270252 616226 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oops that was to you not mroman 
< 1429270272 720016 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ok
< 1429270313 572297 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: i agree, it would be nice if ghc trac's Cc: worked properly
< 1429270313 676322 :fungot!~fungot@82.68.182.43 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: people have worried! the fact, you were like, " hey, i wonder if i've become one
< 1429270317 429321 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :( :t Show
< 1429270317 614206 :idris-bot!~ircslave@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :12Prelude.Show : 12Type -> 12Type
< 1429270325 276123 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes sense
< 1429270369 629664 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sometimes feel like Idris’ typeclasses currently have the wrong amount of magic.
< 1429270378 591827 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42590&oldid=42568 5* 03Vriskanon 5* (+8) 10/* Non-alphabetic */  Added 4
< 1429270380 362888 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07414]]4 N10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42591 5* 03Vriskanon 5* (+117) 10Created stub. Will develop later.
< 1429270399 509978 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t error
< 1429270400 642333 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Char] -> a
< 1429270420 620431 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that a is not *, but OpenKind iirc
< 1429270443 218259 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not.
< 1429270445 190506 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just so it can be used with unlifted types
< 1429270461 983070 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, they should either be more magical like Haskell’s, perhaps with coherence, or they should be less magical to be more flexible.
< 1429270474 504371 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let a :: Int#; !a = error "foo" in ()
< 1429270475 917917 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :     Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Int#’
< 1429270476 63311 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :     Perhaps you meant one of these:
< 1429270476 114444 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :       ‘Int’ (imported from Data.Int), ‘Int8’ (imported from Data.Int)
< 1429270478 613633 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m kinda favoring the latter at the moment.
< 1429270485 677767 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh
< 1429270494 721667 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Melvar: how are they currently magical?
< 1429270495 221655 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sorry, you're right... very interesting.
< 1429270546 265171 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: which means that let e = error does not make e equivalent to error
< 1429270571 566240 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hm
< 1429270579 108220 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds scary.
< 1429270603 591541 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow it reminds me of JS's `eval`, which changes behaviour if you alias it and invoke the alias
< 1429270606 587625 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let !a = error "foo" where 3# = a in ()
< 1429270607 958589 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :     Recursive bindings for unlifted types aren't allowed:
< 1429270608 54888 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :       !a
< 1429270608 105624 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :         = error "foo"
< 1429270613 251144 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah
< 1429270650 464048 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm does that mean
< 1429270663 141509 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let 3# = error "foo" in ()
< 1429270664 469107 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : *Exception: foo
< 1429270669 318363 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh it does
< 1429270690 797982 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :So because 3# is strict, the error is evaluated immediately?
< 1429270695 594058 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let 3# = e "foo"; e = error in ()
< 1429270696 904797 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :     Couldn't match kind ‘*’ with ‘#’
< 1429270696 955524 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :     When matching types
< 1429270697 9079 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :       a0 :: *
< 1429270702 628615 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, when binding 3#
< 1429270704 487916 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you go
< 1429270711 732624 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: yeah so it seems
< 1429270764 801233 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let !a = e "foo"; e = error in ()
< 1429270766 705736 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : *Exception: foo
< 1429270790 289751 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: Well, declared instances are available for the search to find alongside local variables, and values of declared classes can only be constructed through an instance declaration. Constraints kick off the search.
< 1429270831 548161 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, operationally there's no problem here; error just traverses the stack, executing various updated frames (which only point to boxed things), until it reaches a catch frame, where it stops.
< 1429270855 665736 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does (let 3# = error "foo" in ()) even mean? how can 3# be a pattern? isn't it a literal?
< 1429270866 725923 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1429270883 926207 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there are numeric rules that make it check equality when you use it as a pattern
< 1429270893 291005 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: literals have always been patterns
< 1429270906 699864 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, how would fac 0 = 1 work
< 1429270907 654664 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right, there's specific rules for them
< 1429270910 852811 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to check equality
< 1429270912 550274 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1429270917 722279 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: we're outside of Haskell2010 territory anyway. ghc implements patterns for unboxed ints.
< 1429270923 577924 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a literal is a data constructor
< 1429270930 104697 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: (mkShow does not circumvent the second limitation; it uses a single named instance as glue.)
< 1429270935 184496 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :n#-patterns, if you well
< 1429270936 80950 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: not in theory
< 1429270938 888014 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :will
< 1429270939 576877 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: nah, not a numeric literal, no
< 1429270945 732706 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh hm, okay
< 1429270947 772101 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t 1
< 1429270948 908875 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Num a => a
< 1429270954 645225 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, true
< 1429270988 257712 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \x -> let 3 = x in x
< 1429270989 179763 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Eq a, Num a) => a -> a
< 1429271001 935814 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Melvar: hm, I don't think I know enough about Idris to understand that properly, but thanks anyway
< 1429271011 558759 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should learn Idris

< 1429271014 510794 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f 1.0 = () in f 1.0
< 1429271016 27551 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : ()
< 1429271026 407191 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why the fuck
< 1429271053 142634 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f 1.0 = () in f (1.0 + 1e-15)
< 1429271054 492823 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : *Exception: :3:5-14: Non-exhaustive patterns in function f
< 1429271104 795937 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f : Rational -> (); f 1 = () in f 1
< 1429271106 181768 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:18: parse error on input ‘->’
< 1429271113 509403 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f :: Rational -> (); f 1 = () in f 1
< 1429271115 55115 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : ()
< 1429271146 373628 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f (1%3) = () in f (1%3)
< 1429271147 633028 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:8: Parse error in pattern: 1 % 3
< 1429271161 977027 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f ((==1%3) -> True) = () in f (1%3)
< 1429271163 222159 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : ()
< 1429271183 656709 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Priorities
< 1429271213 358935 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do numerical literal patterns turn into use of (==)?
< 1429271223 292353 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Melvar: yes
< 1429271226 143790 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they _removed_ n+k patterns, they're not going to add %
< 1429271263 570938 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Melvar: and numeric literals as either patterns or values turn to a use of FromInteger or FromRational I think
< 1429271282 946679 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: uncapitalized
< 1429271292 422919 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right
< 1429271297 867783 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fromInteger or fromRational
< 1429271308 246194 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was only unclear on the semantics of the patterns.
< 1429271313 991226 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hmm, so the distinguishing feature of unlifted types is not that they can't be bottom, but that a function cannot be lazy in an unlifted type argument. Fun.
< 1429271361 524222 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fuck is let f ((==1%3) = () in f (1%3)
< 1429271363 258157 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: erm... OKAY
< 1429271370 617644 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope nobody actually uses floating point patterns
< 1429271385 558358 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1 % 3
< 1429271386 794219 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 % 3
< 1429271388 671183 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sorry, I'm having an epiphany here.
< 1429271393 412263 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :@type (%)
< 1429271394 515082 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Integral a => a -> a -> Ratio a
< 1429271402 419656 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The only reasonable uses for those would be matching Infinity or NaN, but neither of those can be achieved.)
< 1429271405 400565 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2 % 6
< 1429271405 743382 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: ((==1%3) -> True) is a view pattern
< 1429271406 762759 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 % 3
< 1429271412 258618 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. 
< 1429271417 13229 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't looked at recent extensions.
< 1429271432 957095 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not _that_ recent >:)
< 1429271445 917765 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not in haskell terms :D
< 1429271458 472891 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let (∶) = (%)
< 1429271460 990067 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defined.
< 1429271472 846511 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: (The distinction is so very subtle.)
< 1429271499 561754 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@type 1∶10000
< 1429271500 690161 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Integral a => Ratio a
< 1429271507 524100 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let (÷) = (%)
< 1429271509 786402 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defined.
< 1429271523 27103 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I hope nobody actually uses floating point patterns <-- well you could use them Rationals if you wanted
< 1429271526 282908 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: I picked RATIO there on purpose.
< 1429271565 888603 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f 0 i = i; f x i = f (x/2) (i+1) in f 1 0
< 1429271567 109739 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1075
< 1429271573 576173 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+for
< 1429271575 201693 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it looks like a constructor. Imagine the confusion that would sow.
< 1429271584 461355 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do we have foo=>bar view patterns too now
< 1429271585 451455 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1429271594 364057 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, the ones involving a Maybe
< 1429271607 511973 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, never mind
< 1429271615 920296 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell syntax extensions in ghc are screwed up anyway
< 1429271618 714090 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like them
< 1429271654 417344 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even the list comprehension SQL extensions?
< 1429271657 365551 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they sacked the syntax czar too early
< 1429271663 268962 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(... "paging zzo")
< 1429271669 165094 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats Jafet -----###

< 1429271709 250194 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is silently hoping for an sqlite-based Haskell compiler.

< 1429271718 455558 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: Would full monad comprehensions suffice?
< 1429271743 449001 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Melvar: i think those two extensions are compatible
< 1429271756 424509 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, there are classes for the SQL things
< 1429271793 858971 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (-----###)
< 1429271795 25218 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@silicon.int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: ‘-----###’
< 1429271870 242871 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In Idris, comprehensions of course turn into >>= and guard so you can once again do whatever you want. >ω>)
< 1429271870 336249 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the weakening of the distinction between values/types/kinds, the type notation is so screwed up
< 1429271902 307573 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bootstrap's global default font-size is 14px, with a line-height of 20px. This is applied to the  and all paragraphs. In addition, 
 (paragraphs) receive a bottom margin of half their line-height (10px by default)."
< 1429271913 196998 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would they choose a pixel sized font-size :(
< 1429271978 134376 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.014 imperial cubits
< 1429272205 714122 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-169-098.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently the cubit is the latin equivalent of the ell.
< 1429272549 259044 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's surprising americans actually use hours, seconds and minutes
< 1429272551 750819 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not something else
< 1429272556 3041 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ticks and tocks
< 1429272556 957522 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429272558 829167 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thi sis surreal, I'm sitting in an office with a rabbit stuffed toy, and talking nonsense about the ghc type system that I don't understand
< 1429272569 546147 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's have thought my life would get to this?
< 1429272577 726661 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a tick is 0.978 seconds and a tock is 53 ticks
< 1429272735 463482 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm
< 1429272902 901933 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: px are not physical pixels.
< 1429272923 757548 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: that's because hours, seconds and minutes predate the metric system hth
< 1429273013 213706 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1429273023 115972 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but days and weeks are are even older
< 1429273145 352969 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't type "vocabulary". I keep trying to type "covabulary" instead
< 1429273198 677711 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funny, I once saw a beamer that (apparently, it's the only explanation I have) reported its physical resolution, which made pt-based fonts (which, also apparently, the login manager used...) ridiculously small.
< 1429273280 985767 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it would be about 30 dpi)
< 1429273400 970407 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: do you know about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar ? It didn't catch on...
< 1429273433 134953 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also Swatch time
< 1429273447 451106 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I suspect that a big factor in this was that nobody liked having their birthday on quartidi every year.)
< 1429273465 79599 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm kidding.)
< 1429274120 86711 :tellybot!~tellybot@host68-74-dynamic.41-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429274165 449863 :tellybot!~tellybot@host68-74-dynamic.41-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it PART :#esoteric
< 1429274561 93227 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah but it overwrites my default browser font-size
< 1429274711 290647 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a year has ~365 day
< 1429274735 922905 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did they do with those 5 days at the end?
< 1429274791 817090 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar#Complementary_days
< 1429274806 297643 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't they have a holiday or something
< 1429275036 843486 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should be using internet time anyway
< 1429275040 675822 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently we have 577 beats.
< 1429275053 27905 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's @577 to be precise.
< 1429275087 2411 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -eprint time
< 1429275093 184194 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1429275159
< 1429275096 785326 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`date +%s
< 1429275097 762335 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1429275164
< 1429275132 491689 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: oh you were not saying that they should've used pt instead...
< 1429275257 919708 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07414]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42592&oldid=42591 5* 03Vriskanon 5* (+3145) 10Added summary, table of functions, formatting (check for correct wiki formatting?) and basic example code.
< 1429275639 900044 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in
< 1429276288 270629 :nortti!~juhani@ayu.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: there are an unbounded number of memory cells, numbered from 1 onwards. you can move between them using the operations 2n, (n-1)/3, and collatz function
< 1429276333 402273 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07414]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42593&oldid=42592 5* 03Vriskanon 5* (+172) 10/* Sample codes */ Added Hello World program
< 1429276414 373088 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that gives you at least a one-sided tape on powers of 2
< 1429276481 686790 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact an infinite number, although moving between them is more awkward.
< 1429276507 394326 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1429276540 830449 :nortti!~juhani@ayu.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, actually, should one be allowed to go to 4 from 13? because if yes, you do (n-1)/3, then collatz, and end in someplace completely different
< 1429276548 628313 :nortti!~juhani@ayu.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also, it would no longer be a tree
< 1429276572 901578 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm
< 1429276595 624208 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just stick to powers of two
< 1429276604 267840 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42594&oldid=42590 5* 03Vriskanon 5* (-16) 10/* D */  Removed Daft Punk - Have given up on the project
< 1429276607 539051 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(n-1)/3 only if you end up at an odd number, naturally
< 1429276659 539199 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Daft Punk14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42595&oldid=42234 5* 03Vriskanon 5* (-317) 10Removed all text - please delete the page (project given up)
< 1429276689 352336 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively, make a competition: limit n to 2^16, and write programs that can reverse strings up to some length M; the person with the best M/sqrt(program size) ratio wins.
< 1429276707 250989 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not sure what the scoring formula should be)
< 1429276751 818632 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Oerjan 5*  10deleted "[[02Daft Punk10]]": Author request: content was: "{{stub}}" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Vriskanon|Vriskanon]]")
< 1429276752 281935 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can that simulate a RAM with logarithmic overhead?
< 1429277240 139516 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@65-183-137-193-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429277340 137312 :Patashu!~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1429277613 912644 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1429277725 884920 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Vriskanon14]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42596&oldid=42266 5* 03Vriskanon 5* (+10) 10/* Vriskanon */ Added credit for 4
< 1429278061 961697 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1429278201 776383 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429278920 894148 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are going to be 2 new IWC comics A WEEK
< 1429278923 9191 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaaaah
< 1429278972 76211 :nortti!~juhani@ayu.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :IWC?
< 1429278979 993725 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
< 1429278994 854090 :nortti!~juhani@ayu.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1429279588 201638 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429279977 469442 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Good evening.
< 1429279977 576030 :fungot!~fungot@82.68.182.43 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: so, hey, it was our table! if he's interested, he'll push it back to your side. the salt shaker over to their side, this means that, for all intents and purposes
< 1429280003 990696 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what a cliffhanger...
< 1429280004 55712 :fungot!~fungot@82.68.182.43 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: in a good story, they function in an undiagnosable way?
< 1429280013 634360 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: spot on
< 1429280013 739282 :fungot!~fungot@82.68.182.43 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: so! i intend to do today! we can't hang up the phone to talk to a t-rex... nostalgia, doesn't that make them equally valid?!
< 1429280030 954024 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth
< 1429280064 665731 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I still want to know what pushing the salt shaker over to their side means :-/
< 1429280087 278251 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Etiquette is hard.
< 1429280167 627032 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429280882 815665 :MDream!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude
< 1429280890 392222 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Element14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42597&oldid=40776 5* 0363.232.95.4 5* (-1) 10/* Documentation */ minor typo fixes
< 1429280936 844363 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1429280961 23983 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Phi 5*  10New user account
< 1429281107 262741 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can't hang up the phone to do that, indeed.
< 1429281222 467212 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: probably he wanted to show a trick with the salt shaker, like Reg from ''Dirk Gently'' did
< 1429281230 886125 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Element14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42598&oldid=42597 5* 03Phi 5* (+1492) 10Updated documentation
< 1429281261 20319 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: good idea (great trick, too.)
< 1429281303 863337 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: What does the shalt shaker mean?
< 1429281303 920842 :fungot!~fungot@82.68.182.43 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: and so: " probably not!"
< 1429281309 490465 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(
< 1429281384 467962 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what can you tell us about electric monks?
< 1429281384 577659 :fungot!~fungot@82.68.182.43 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: dromiceiomimus, i have a great idea, dromiceiomimus: stories for women! stories with " and in april, your ' i got it'" letters forever
< 1429281407 55701 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: can we try that again?
< 1429281407 199916 :fungot!~fungot@82.68.182.43 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i i guess!
< 1429281412 50485 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: go ahead then
< 1429281412 154697 :fungot!~fungot@82.68.182.43 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: as a man concerned, t-rex, that going shopping was your default activity? by this i mean, t-rex?
< 1429281476 531254 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: I like shopping.
< 1429281476 743356 :fungot!~fungot@82.68.182.43 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: i've never been to the bottom of a bottle. doctor: as a male, i can be one of those people are going to think you're a pedophile, and he's on a friggin' universe. and then there'll be a day shortly afterwards when we can simulate universe on our cell, because there'd have been no controversy.
< 1429281487 954573 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Oh, and for some reason the phrase "horses were so cheap to make" stuck to my mind.
< 1429281519 338071 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: where's that phrase from?
< 1429281522 968774 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: That doctor sounds weird.
< 1429281523 105302 :fungot!~fungot@82.68.182.43 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: but t-rex, you can't play the game optimally! and assuming that in a man... or a woman, dromiceiomimus
< 1429281523 883314 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: same book
< 1429281543 314456 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: they allowed the [electric monk] to keep his horse though, because horses were so cheap to make
< 1429281544 238198 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to re-read that book. it's been a lot of time.
< 1429281595 758654 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/lot of/long/
< 1429282176 479895 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429282420 902284 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Element14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42599&oldid=42598 5* 03Phi 5* (+1284) 10
< 1429282641 235531 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429283054 169672 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1429283462 134364 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :   There are going to be 2 new IWC comics A WEEK   ← sounds rather regular
< 1429283525 735142 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: from http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/special/faq.html "But so far this comic has been more regular than many webcomics that actually claim to be updated regularly!"
< 1429283612 988677 :S1!~S1@p4FF93F9C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429283822 665141 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, http://www.savagechickens.com/2015/04/stomping.html totally looks like qwantz
< 1429285155 108195 :S1!~S1@p4FF93F9C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: S1
< 1429285498 334535 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429285687 357772 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07414]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42600&oldid=42593 5* 03SuperJedi224 5* (+10) 10
< 1429285782 885164 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429285933 336152 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@65-183-137-193-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1429286518 333427 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@65-183-137-193-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429286530 69238 :adu!~ajr@c-69-243-56-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1429286615 214866 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42601&oldid=30149 5* 03162.247.72.213 5* (+1) 10Spelling fix
< 1429286715 344308 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429286868 462133 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Client Quit
< 1429287038 127271 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429287140 760701 :MDude!~fyrc@c-71-58-118-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1429287517 119844 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1429287521 45754 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yranaffrdmfucefi QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1429287657 212400 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429287690 26097 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@65-183-137-193-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the docs for booktabs
< 1429287786 796025 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 980
< 1429287787 644466 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 980: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
< 1429287933 55803 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-84-223.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429289555 705875 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-84-223.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :When opening a ZIP archive I will first list the files in the archive before extracting it
< 1429290736 275463 :nszceta!~nszceta@95.211.152.2 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429290840 429875 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hello

< 1429291039 578549 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero
< 1429291079 259627 :tromp!~tromp@rtc35-012.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ni hao
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< 1429291286 686986 :rdococ!5219f1b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.25.241.183 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1429291601 501145 :atrapado!~ddd@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429291851 158714 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-84-223.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, hello, OK
< 1429291896 272594 :Guest75683!dlopen@libdl.so NICK :Gregor
< 1429292009 328835 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1429299445 164165 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages
< 1429300007 672250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1429300013 327922 :callforjudgement!~ais523@cpc6-king9-2-0-cust765.perr.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429300019 707970 :callforjudgement!~ais523@cpc6-king9-2-0-cust765.perr.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host
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< 1429300279 100652 :bb010g!uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-govtqkntklkuhfmy JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1429300358 933729 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523
< 1429300384 142077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, my yacc implementation has now reached the point where, if everything works out correctly, it can successfully parse something
< 1429300394 565391 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. far from 100% functionality, but a sufficient percentage that it works sometimes
< 1429300398 185416 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is quite the milestone
< 1429300433 321605 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429300485 554601 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1429300494 402951 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429300500 335774 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I found a place where Bison violates the letter of the POSIX spec, because POSIX is asking for something unreasonable
< 1429300502 337437 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :
< 1429300521 661397 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/default-yyclearin.y
< 1429300528 956921 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, looks like I arrived in time to see the last message I sent
< 1429300536 404890 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, as usual, makes no sense
< 1429300537 989077 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523
< 1429300551 333327 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was so unreasonable about the POSIX spec?
< 1429300565 963483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't limit the situations in which yyclearin can be called
< 1429300577 489899 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which allows you to retroactively invalidate any sort of optimization that the yacc impl might have made
< 1429300642 603496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can try that example in Bison (or ayacc, it comes to the same thing, default config in both cases)
< 1429300680 142281 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look up what that means
< 1429300701 68689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means I have to do stupid things, like checking to see if the lookahead character has a particular value to know to run a particular reduction, then checking it again to make sure it hasn't changed
< 1429300707 64950 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are likely to really slow down parsing
< 1429300708 222614 :rdococ!5219f1b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.25.241.183 QUIT :Quit: Page closed
< 1429300719 199123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on the point of just grepping for "yyclearin" in the user's actions and optimizing if I don't see it
< 1429300719 253870 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :When is a lookahead token read, exactly?
< 1429300729 298474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whenever it's needed to determine between two possible parses
< 1429300744 404315 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If the current lookahead token has not yet been read, yyclearin shall have no effect."
< 1429300767 67232 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the example I pasted, it's as clear as possible that that's happening
< 1429300784 521705 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you clearly can't distinguish an x from a y without reading the x_indicator or y_indicator
< 1429300789 338324 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it's a token that hasn't been shifted yet. the lr parser works in a way that it can apply a grammar rule reducing symbols only if the last symbol that's already been shifted is part of that, it can't reduce "below" the last shifted symbol
< 1429300796 289764 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(dunno if that makes sense)
< 1429300845 175125 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what if you just make yyclearin a macro that always gives a compile error saying that feature is unsupported if you try to use it?
< 1429300848 728982 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-)
< 1429300858 784426 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm trying to be POSIX-compatible even when it makes no sense
< 1429300864 657090 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why do they put these kinds of things in POSIX?
< 1429300866 903945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just look at the location of the comment in that example :-)
< 1429300884 556844 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :these seem like historical artifacts that were added because they were easy to implement in one particular yacc implementation
< 1429300888 761468 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then they got stuck
< 1429300892 178812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another fun bit is that the POSIX spec mentions that yychar is renamed by -p, but doesn't define any job for it to do
< 1429300907 639368 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh stupid historical cruft we're carrying
< 1429300908 946465 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I just didn't implement it
< 1429300939 894186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yyclearin is very easy to implement in almost any yacc implementation, it just invalidates pretty much any optimization you might think of that involves reductions
< 1429300998 735800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it makes sense to put it in an error recovery rule
< 1429300998 978098 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that's real interesting. :)
< 1429301016 249485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just can't think of a different sensible place to put it, IMO it'd be confined to error recovery only
< 1429301017 895933 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, yychar is a _variable_, writable?
< 1429301022 144998 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes no sense
< 1429301026 792679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Bison, it is
< 1429301028 517925 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would that not break the states?
< 1429301030 800237 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :global variable
< 1429301032 367975 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the parser states?
< 1429301043 667647 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like traditionally it contains the lookahead token.
< 1429301045 686672 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you just write anythign in it?
< 1429301057 689126 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the reason (probably the only reason) it works is that Bison verifies tokens for syntaxiness on shift, not on reduce
< 1429301058 145327 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Doing so probably invokes UB.
< 1429301091 650761 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the state in traditional yacc is mutable global state that a yacc program isn't permitted to touch.
< 1429301111 975489 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is crazy stuff I didn't want to see or know about
< 1429301116 537919 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to try to unsee it hard now
< 1429301118 766609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to Bison you can just change yychar when you want
< 1429301127 558102 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because yacc straight-up compiles to C code that just mutates all that state.
< 1429301150 463829 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yacc is *not* designed for, say, reentrant use. :))
< 1429301154 275186 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :people back then didn't understand encapsulation
< 1429301170 133425 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it was designed to compile compilers.
< 1429301173 41777 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's about it.
< 1429301188 959486 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the way I'm handling this in ayacc is, it has an entry point yyparse_symbol that takes yylex as an argument
< 1429301196 745701 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is *entirely* suitable for the task of, say, writing a simple C compiler.
< 1429301211 686326 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then yyparse is a wrapper around that, which gives it a wrapper around yylex as an argument
< 1429301277 21922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only problem with doing this is that yylex has to /exist/ even if you use the sensible API (although it won't be called)
< 1429301286 168305 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ah, spiffy. So essentially none of it assumes that the state is global, it just so happens that when used in a purely POSIX fashion it behaves that way.
< 1429301297 659034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep
< 1429301313 148594 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad yychar isn't /necessarily/ a global because otherwise I couldn't keep it in sync with yylval
< 1429301316 481539 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is necessarily a global)
< 1429301353 200365 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and is each parser re-entrant so you can start multiple instances? if so, is there a defined api for how to break out of one cleaning up all the memory it's allocated?
< 1429301361 401768 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done anything with lex, or is flex "good enough" for you? :)
< 1429301379 107832 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, new OOTS this evening
< 1429301403 884658 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes to the first; for the second, I don't have destructors or the like, but in a language which has exceptions, if you use exception-safe code it should work
< 1429301433 237084 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you essentially just have to be aware that it's C.
< 1429301471 597872 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind me asking why you started working on ayacc?
< 1429301479 660787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I couldn't find a decent yacc impl for Windows
< 1429301492 739399 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, how'd she get the knife back? I'll have to read back
< 1429301502 482581 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hum. Does ayacc work on not-Windows?
< 1429301508 215839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's where I'm testing it
< 1429301514 66731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't tried it on Windows yet
< 1429301518 484618 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Wonderful.
< 1429301522 523521 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you mean it is guaranteed to allocate memory only on the stack, as in, it won't call malloc?
< 1429301524 337212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not doing anything unportable yet
< 1429301534 53651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right, no malloc anywhere (unless you write it in your semantic actions)
< 1429301539 56253 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :good
< 1429301542 223880 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :And hopefully by the time it matters musl-on-windows will be an option.
< 1429301552 255929 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sure, if I allocate, that's of course mine to cleanup
< 1429301570 154748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll need help from a C++ expert to figure out how this should work in C++, you can copy everywhere and it'd work but be inefficient
< 1429301579 874915 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it also won't start threads or coroutines or processes of course, right? not that it would make sense, but that's also required for just jumping out to work.
< 1429301600 234715 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: to figure out how what should work?
< 1429301606 262295 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and copy what everywhere?
< 1429301610 52809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but it currently uses setjmp/longjmp in C for error handling
< 1429301614 840695 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: semantic values, mostly
< 1429301635 364304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm I just pass them around with assignment commands
< 1429301641 874520 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and return them and pass them from functions plain
< 1429301672 339200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C they're nearly always integers or pointers, so that works pretty well
< 1429301675 552385 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm... the problem is mostly when you destroy symbols on the stack, either during error handling or when the whole stream is rejected
< 1429301677 62333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in C++ it'd make sense to use objects
< 1429301679 943480 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you need some sort of destructors
< 1429301685 635163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1429301689 876434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bison has a nonstandard extension for this
< 1429301690 102323 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: as in, most of the symbols are destroyed when they're reduced
< 1429301700 278128 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: lemon handles this sanely actually:
< 1429301717 514506 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has destructor function for symbols (terminal and non-terminal) that it calls if they're non-reduced
< 1429301734 688506 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :setjmp itself should be no problem unless you somehow call it from inside a user action
< 1429301734 856134 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I could implement things like that but it'd cost a lot of performance, as I'd need a separate error path in every function
< 1429301752 504297 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even without error handling, you have to do something when the input doesn't match the grammar
< 1429301754 104290 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well YYERROR is a longjmp call, but thankfully that's already documented to not terminate normally
< 1429301763 297736 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :clean up the symbols on the stack somehow
< 1429301767 631200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it normally compiles to a goto, because traditionally everything's one function
< 1429301837 602298 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the POSIX approach is to just leak them
< 1429301844 224677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is completely fine if they're ints
< 1429301856 610659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, something that shocked me is that POSIX yyparse has no way to return a value, other than success/fail
< 1429301871 646353 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to write a top-level semantic action that stores it in a global variable
< 1429301922 630034 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's a mode where there's no %union but only one type for representing all nonterminals, right? if that's what I do, there'll be no union in the emitted C code?
< 1429301940 346819 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, then it will probably "just work" if you make that one type a C++ object with a destructor,
< 1429301963 412926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right, if you don't use <> marks anywhere
< 1429301966 94530 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, it might be better if you could make ayacc call some sort of destructor in C mode too
< 1429301972 831725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm having trouble understanding what POSIX says to do in that situation
< 1429301980 571319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some bits imply the global type should be int
< 1429301986 35046 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um
< 1429301989 810666 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there another declaration?
< 1429301991 792319 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look this up
< 1429302016 776660 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> from __future__ import division; 1/2**6 * sum(map(lambda n: (-1)**n/2**(10*n) * (-2**5/(4*n+1) - 1/(4*n+3) + 2**8/(10*n+1) - 2**6/(10*n+3) - 2**2/(10*n+5) - 2**2/(10*n+7) + 1/(10*n+9)), range(50)))
< 1429302031 161950 :GeekDude!~GeekDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there not a python bot in here?
< 1429302049 817907 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, at least with C11 you could make it a thread-local and then you'd have *a* way of behaving sanely.
< 1429302053 391901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was like 5 years ago
< 1429302065 917570 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: not so
< 1429302069 56644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess HackEgo might be able to do it?
< 1429302069 581627 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thread local isn't enoguh
< 1429302076 498611 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can call parsers recursively
< 1429302098 245336 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I was meaning you could wrap it into a vaguely sane API.
< 1429302102 432223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I wasn't expecting anyone to do that, but yes, I think with ayacc it does actually work
< 1429302120 372020 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the point is, if you're using a union (as in the C/C++ thing) in the emitted code, then it's only your parser's code that's somehow tracking which type it contains, so even the C++ compiler won't know how to destroy the values
< 1429302160 688407 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so there's two choices to clean up properly: either ayacc has to support calling a destructor depending on the type of the symbol (ayacc probably knows the type), or you have to use a single type and no union
< 1429302195 521095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: currently I am using a union, but that's only temporary
< 1429302200 749582 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm hoping to optimize the union out
< 1429302214 70465 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even inventing a generic syntax for %union that makes sense for languages other than C so that the optimization works
< 1429302227 984112 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the rule is "%union consists of a sequence of target-language declarations")
< 1429302230 822133 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can certainly do that in some cases, but I think you need the union in some other cases
< 1429302240 990297 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait
< 1429302243 837849 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean that way
< 1429302257 191291 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you meant you'd store just one member instead of the whole union in some cases when you know its type
< 1429302264 554493 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry
< 1429302280 572701 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I know the type, I want to be storing in a variable of that type
< 1429302296 465754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :occasionally you need a union though because you can reduce in two different ways (depending on lookahead) and they have different tyeps
< 1429302308 616650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then your function is basically returning a tagged union, so you can unpack it as soon as you arrive at the destination
< 1429302309 127621 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, you almost certainly need a union some times
< 1429302327 222689 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you want to store just a member sometimes, then you have to be able to parse the union declaration, don't you?
< 1429302371 421475 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do, but the amount of actual parsing needed is minimal
< 1429302384 232228 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? how so?
< 1429302393 559195 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you have to parse out the member name _and_ the type name?
< 1429302399 953224 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for each elemetn
< 1429302406 786065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I defined %union as "a sequence of target-language declarations", then all you have to do is swap out the member name
< 1429302417 722205 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how do you know where the member name is?
< 1429302430 886839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know /what/ the member name is, so you just look for it
< 1429302434 901426 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, how do you even know where the boundary between the members is?
< 1429302438 911484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :semicolons :-)
< 1429302451 149904 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't semicolons occurr inside declarations these days?
< 1429302455 904327 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1429302457 636261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's one of the few concessions I had to make, but luckily they're valid as statement separators in most languages
< 1429302471 588597 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only case I know, in C at least, is int (/*;*/ *x)
< 1429302474 646031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the like
< 1429302479 833394 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I get the semicolon
< 1429302481 598710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think I can get away with a "please don't do that"
< 1429302484 25432 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how can you find the member name?
< 1429302501 534543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're thinking about this backwards
< 1429302509 421876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you already know is the member name, what you don't know is the full declaration
< 1429302516 36395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'll only appear in one of the declarations, so you know it's that one
< 1429302519 515081 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, more like struct { int u; int v; } foo;
< 1429302521 922216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it'll only appear once, so you just look for it
< 1429302536 808750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, if you do that, then u and v become invalid as %union tags
< 1429302537 75022 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or struct { int u; char v[';'/4]; } foo; if I want to be evil
< 1429302553 707641 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1429302561 849836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit fragile but I think it's an acceptable price, especially if I give an option to disable the optimization
< 1429302565 565952 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean you know the member name from %type declarations?
< 1429302567 200137 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah!
< 1429302570 763917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1429302575 600588 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if a member name is never used?
< 1429302582 788719 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you never have to use it
< 1429302587 382043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't matter that you can't
< 1429302593 690152 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1429302613 424589 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what if the same symbol as the member name appears in another context in the declarations? I guess that's just don't do it territory
< 1429302658 395045 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see, Crystal takes it away from Haley in just the previous strip
< 1429302679 99285 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going on the basis that it's not going to be a target-language keyword in almost any cases
< 1429302682 628422 :fractal!~fractal@2001:41d0:a:fab8::1 QUIT :Changing host
< 1429302682 683070 :fractal!~fractal@unaffiliated/scounder JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429302683 226385 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*almost all cases
< 1429302694 205029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically you can call a variable $my in Perl, but if you do that, IMO you deserve what you get
< 1429302701 551120 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero
< 1429302711 346583 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't mean a keyword. an identifier. but it's a union tag, so it can appear in other structs or something.
< 1429302732 111060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I didn't think of the "struct defined in-place" case
< 1429302741 390174 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, %union { float x; struct { float x, y; } point; }
< 1429302753 639130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly it doesn't seem like a /useful/ case, but it's nice to be as general as possible, especially in #esoteric
< 1429302765 461360 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could just ban that and ask for the types to be defined elsewhere
< 1429302770 235748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about this: if the tag isn't unique in the entire %union definition, I just don't optimize
< 1429302787 612396 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if there's an inline struct, you'll have problems with the semicolons anyway
< 1429302832 912580 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait wait
< 1429302834 519478 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually no because ayacc knows enough to not detect semicolons inside braces
< 1429302846 515826 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you actually can't use an in-place defined struct usefully
< 1429302853 290694 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can't easily refer to it from elsewhere
< 1429302862 770648 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it has a name, you can refer to that name only if you know the name of the union
< 1429302881 591164 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still use it in a type-unsafe way or by using the value in the rules without referring to the types of coures
< 1429302884 527406 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a subset-of-C parser, which you need to use to find the end of the %union declaration anyway
< 1429302885 782245 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just less useful
< 1429302896 773292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you do know its name, it's YYSTYPE (specified by POSIX)
< 1429302914 685144 :orin!~oren@65.94.97.99 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1429302927 108356 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be fun to use ayacc to put together a naive-but-usable C compiler.
< 1429302930 224234 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah... but it's not YYSTYPE from another compilation unit, especially if you compile multiple grammars
< 1429302948 459594 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :My definition of "usable" here would ideally include "can be used to build Linux".
< 1429302959 378277 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: by the way, this kind of nonsense might explain why they use bison in the implementation of bison
< 1429302960 278244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a pretty lofty definition
< 1429302965 740817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even clang had trouble doing that until recently
< 1429302968 110790 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes it is.
< 1429302975 243710 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: somehow that doesn't surprise me
< 1429302977 725232 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though "naive" helps matters significantly.
< 1429302991 899307 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the hard part of building Linux is all the gcc extensions
< 1429303007 913553 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep.
< 1429303013 473017 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's one hard part
< 1429303015 633472 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes
< 1429303020 446474 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which are simpler if you're not doing a significantly complicated optimizer.
< 1429303041 434866 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2a85f.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429303043 878521 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2a85f.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :New laptop
< 1429303049 377997 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also that Linux relies on particular non-optimizations, and newer gcc and Linux together has to avoid optimizations breaking those old assumptions
< 1429303057 911491 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2a85f.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And using Hexchat instead of Quassel
< 1429303058 875391 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Which are simpler if you're not doing a significantly complicated optimizer."
< 1429303098 762335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: a naive compiler doesn't need to worry about reliance on non-optimizations
< 1429303099 451376 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff about atomic accesses that are handled in a strange way (because they had to exist before there was a sane way to handle them in user programs), and objects being ordered in segments in a particular order
< 1429303106 995084 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes
< 1429303117 282222 :hjulle!~hjulle@ankadagen.vth.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429303126 658987 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I assume you'd be outputting asm?
< 1429303131 425424 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nod*
< 1429303159 18985 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that's not too hard, but they have to make sure the kernel code is compiled in a way that it never tries to touch xmm and x87 state
< 1429303160 367999 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we're going full-naive but usable for bootstrapping, the compiler should do as little work as it can get away with. :)
< 1429303169 869246 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :outputting asm directly from the parser?
< 1429303186 53813 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :From a compiler, as opposed to machine code, I presume
< 1429303190 818473 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be horrible, but nice to have just a single yacc input file be the whole compiler
< 1429303200 52707 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have to handle old gcc style tagged structure initializers, which for some reason the Linux developers are fond of, even over c99 style initializers
< 1429303228 635042 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they also have some gcc-style inline assembly, which isn't actually so easy to implement correctly in a compiler
< 1429303237 308543 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even without optimizations
< 1429303275 279164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm trying to remember what the old-style even was
< 1429303290 64408 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ [field] value, [field] value } ?
< 1429303292 795311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that just for arrays?
< 1429303307 709725 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think struct point p = { x: 4, y: -1 };
< 1429303313 731523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, colons
< 1429303324 903791 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wheras new stype is struct point p = { .x = 4, .y = -1 }; I think
< 1429303325 625806 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that does look a bit prettier than the C99 version
< 1429303331 129457 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the C99 syntax is more logical though
< 1429303345 494186 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mostly do C++ so I don't see either
< 1429303355 598339 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also similar syntax for array initializers
< 1429303356 393356 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and C syntax has a traditional of being 100% logical and predictable, and yet somehow still massively ugly and unintuitive
< 1429303364 13467 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't c++xy import any of that?
< 1429303369 211958 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ [0] = "zero", [1] = "one" }
< 1429303370 851571 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for arrays
< 1429303380 583683 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but what's the old gcc style?
< 1429303385 389592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use that in NH4 quite a bit for enum-valued arrays
< 1429303391 396363 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think old style is that without the = signs?
< 1429303399 439699 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way
< 1429303404 554082 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2a85f.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Just so you know, your computer does not meet Second Life's minimum system requirements."
< 1429303410 798134 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would totally conflict with C++11 lambda syntax
< 1429303431 922080 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ .x[1][2].y.z = 42 }
< 1429303433 352306 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you need braces for that but those can occurr in an initiali9zer
< 1429303444 571144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: this is way older than C11
< 1429303448 335632 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, C++11
< 1429303450 644070 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An alternative syntax for this which has been obsolete since GCC 2.5 but GCC still accepts is to write `[index]' before the element value, with no `='."
< 1429303454 531321 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: of course it is
< 1429303456 567670 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was obsolete in 1999
< 1429303474 45748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the fact that it conflicts with C++11 syntax is not really a strike against its having existed
< 1429303483 925468 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, actually
< 1429303502 997859 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I wonder if the C11 initalizer syntax can conflict syntactically with C++11 lambdas too
< 1429303507 860987 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think it probably can't
< 1429303558 233726 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't put an = there in C++
< 1429303562 726649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's required in C11
< 1429303567 717957 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, but maybe in some more complicated cases
< 1429303584 491134 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me think
< 1429303590 953345 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in C++, after the closing square bracket
< 1429303598 306483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you have to have an opening parenthesis next?
< 1429303609 850383 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C11, you have a bracketed stuff, then either an equal sign, or another bracketed stuff, or a dot, right?
< 1429303616 572370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wow, my brain is definitely in parser mode)
< 1429303616 945806 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need the parenthesis
< 1429303619 601494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yep
< 1429303622 801816 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :() is optional
< 1429303627 98167 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the return type is also optional
< 1429303638 884359 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think a dot can follow in C++
< 1429303644 774628 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably no equals sign either
< 1429303646 368602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, that much optional?
< 1429303654 481310 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes
< 1429303662 960870 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the braces are required though
< 1429303663 648702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so []{puts("hello world");} is a valid lambda in C++?
< 1429303668 433367 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1429303677 921612 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why people are joking about [](){}();
< 1429303682 257689 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a valid statement in C++11
< 1429303714 997662 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some people want explicit template lambda syntax which would make []<>(){}(); valid too
< 1429303724 777938 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it probably won't happen, sadly
< 1429303731 809361 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :template lambdas o.O
< 1429303749 522414 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: they exist now, but without an explicit <>
< 1429303751 223643 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't laugh
< 1429303765 497841 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they actually make sense
< 1429303765 890709 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I saw the [](){}() syntax being thrown around as an example of the horrors of C++ well before I knew what it did
< 1429303770 210660 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was a little disappointed to hear it was a no-op
< 1429303802 487580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, it's crazy hard to write a switch statement efficiently in Perl
< 1429303803 818922 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Taktentus14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42602&oldid=42137 5* 0380.53.184.190 5* (-1) 10/* External resources */
< 1429303807 428640 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :my c++ must be slipping, I can't imagine any way to use a templated lambda
< 1429303819 369628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my current attempt is a hash from values to subroutines
< 1429303820 31622 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no-op when allowed
< 1429303838 682936 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it's basically an object with a member function template called operator()
< 1429303908 395470 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: so it's sort of like auto m = [](auto x){ printf("hello"); } is similar to like struct foo { void template operator()(T x) { printf("hello"); } }; foo m;
< 1429303921 717653 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Taktentus14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42603&oldid=42602 5* 0380.53.184.190 5* (+44) 10/* Syntax */
< 1429303931 994941 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't take that as strict truth, but that's the idea
< 1429303943 372873 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, right, the operator() becomes a templated function
< 1429303967 966121 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: the main use is just when you're lazy and don't want to explicitly name the argument type, even though you could; but there can be a use when you actually use the same lambda with multiple instantiations of that function
< 1429303993 648858 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can even pass such a polymorphic lambda to other functions, and those functions can call it with multiple typse
< 1429304030 643462 :f|`-`|f_!~rikc@108-65-78-116.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429304104 14669 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the difficult part of that is that you don't get to use closed values inside the subroutines
< 1429304113 288572 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to pass them as arguments explicitly
< 1429304121 918935 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: one hack you can use in perl is computed goto
< 1429304129 538911 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's somewhat evil
< 1429304141 621248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might actually be less evil than the hash of subs
< 1429304148 437706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the hardest part was the scope of "return"
< 1429304148 721794 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? no way
< 1429304153 711269 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a hash of subs isn't evil
< 1429304158 12679 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's quite normal
< 1429304158 67992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you just return from the inside
< 1429304162 155298 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just has some limitations
< 1429304169 171962 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure
< 1429304178 118407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need another layer of "return" around the outside, so the evil part is
< 1429304183 134961 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just use a goto/last to return from deep :-)
< 1429304187 574351 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the only way to continue in the same function is to jump out of the inside subs using goto
< 1429304264 272868 :f|`-`|f!~rikc@108-65-78-116.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1429304265 736991 :f|`-`|f_!~rikc@108-65-78-116.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net NICK :f|`-`|f
< 1429304280 722042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or last, but that's more evil than goto I think (at least, there's a warning on last and not on goto)
< 1429304323 584594 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the incantation is our $RETFOO; sub foo { ... bar(); ... ENDFOO: $RETFOO } sub bar { ...; if (...) { $RETFOO = ...; no warnings "exiting"; goto ENDFOO; } ... }
< 1429304343 821671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know you can turn it off
< 1429304354 761949 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: actually, you can also jump out with die and eval{}
< 1429304355 600997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is how Test::More does its "SKIP:" blocks
< 1429304358 564224 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than goto
< 1429304363 970757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I use that for the syntax error path
< 1429304367 855061 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or will, that bit isn't implemented yet
< 1429304383 405983 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some constructs die can't jump out of, and constructs goto can't jump out of, and neither of these are subsets of the other
< 1429304388 655854 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in practice die can jump out of more things
< 1429304419 379463 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, die can jump out of some well-behaved XS subroutines whereas I think goto can't ever jump out of any XS (but I could be wrong)
< 1429304432 376488 :Guest3780!~magician@31.203.146.52 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1429304449 48626 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas goto can jump out of sort comparison blocks but die can't (I think)
< 1429304522 127786 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4C6F4.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429304537 934258 :Guest3780!~magician@31.203.146.52 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429304545 730225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason you can't goto out of XS is because the code outside the XS and the callback from the XS are running in different interpreters
< 1429304549 388016 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just ones that share most of their state
< 1429304556 448244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the instruction pointer's part of the state that isn't shared
< 1429304575 128447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, can you goto out of a block eval?
< 1429304577 433856 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, if you jump out from regexes or the right hand side of s/// substitutions, you may get into unexpected trouble with very old versions of perl
< 1429304633 625540 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think s/// is fine since the oldest perls you want to support
< 1429304646 263754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ayacc doesn't work as far back as aimake
< 1429304650 221739 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's something like 5.14 I think
< 1429304666 961120 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you probably don't want to use /(?{ blocks at all if you want to use old perls, regardless of whether you jump out of them or recurse into the regex engine from them or anything
< 1429304672 108072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using modern Perl stuff if I want to (although not experimental stuff), on the basis that the platforms stuck on old Perl also tend to have a working yacc
< 1429304698 546731 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but /(?{ semantics has changed even after that, so it's best to avoid complicated tricks with that
< 1429304708 91300 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, ayacc has a language-generic backend, the syntax of the target language is basically just in one big hash that contains code fragments
< 1429304716 860208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that are combined to make the target program
< 1429304732 207064 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I support targetting 5.14+
< 1429304761 965 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, are there placeholders in those code fragments so the code can be re-ordered?
< 1429304767 211291 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or only constant strings?
< 1429304790 459868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of placeholders
< 1429304802 390180 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have to change my templating syntax eventually but it's working OK atm
< 1429304834 67580 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but you'll still make the C language backend such that it emits a single version of that code that should work in all systems and compilers, right?
< 1429304837 491203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the assumption that even though we might have false positives on constructs that exist in the target language, we can avoid generating code that confuses our own internal parser
< 1429304840 763170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes
< 1429304850 962634 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, one thing I did was
< 1429304865 249054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define a macro YYUNREACHABLE to __builtin_unreachable or the like and it makes your code more efficient
< 1429304869 535346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't, it substitutes an infinite loop
< 1429304888 223786 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: just get the code from libecb and use the ecb_unreachable macro for that
< 1429304892 200203 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's portable
< 1429304901 343738 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's the whole point)
< 1429304902 439898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, I realised that there's really only one correct way to write a macro that expands to an infinite loop)
< 1429304927 635995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first attempt was do { for(;;) ; } while (0)
< 1429304938 212316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's clearly possible to do better :-)
< 1429304967 706289 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: um, an infinite loop of what? 
< 1429304973 746642 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, what's in the loop body?
< 1429304986 859985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an infinite loop of nothing
< 1429304990 446285 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code never runs
< 1429304993 997325 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :{} while (1)  clearly works
< 1429304996 319247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's to help the compiler optimize it out
< 1429304999 899338 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: in C?
< 1429305002 876305 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you implement that as an inline function
< 1429305012 826623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, you missed the "do"
< 1429305016 817066 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the macro just expands to a call to that function
< 1429305022 825040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I eventually golfed it down to "do; while (1)"
< 1429305035 480551 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is a weird sort of golf that requires correct whitespace)
< 1429305055 129518 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, on the top level, inline ecb_noreturn void yyinfiniteloop() { for (;;) pause(); }
< 1429305060 411379 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something
< 1429305073 610693 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(void) instead of () probably, in C
< 1429305080 242055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the libecb stuff relies on implementation namespace, doesn't it?
< 1429305081 196358 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, yes.
< 1429305094 336024 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what do you mean by "implementation namespace"?
< 1429305109 12284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: anything starting with double underscore or underscore and capital letter
< 1429305117 50202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or a few other cases which don't matter here)
< 1429305121 554210 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether you use them yourself, or just look at them
< 1429305132 295102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :exception: anything that's specifically specified in a relevant C standard
< 1429305140 423898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the relevant standard is C99)
< 1429305157 457858 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it probably relies on it in that it refers to some non-standard compiler extensions on particular compilers, yes
< 1429305162 125160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can look at __STDC_VERSION__ but not __GNUC
< 1429305167 328441 :oren!~oren@65.94.97.99 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429305168 52101 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That was a brain fart, but ... interestingly ... gcc accepts that without the do, why?
< 1429305169 574270 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right, POSIX disallows that
< 1429305178 10182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: two different statements
< 1429305184 3510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :{} and while(1); are both valid statements
< 1429305195 719010 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh. silly me.
< 1429305204 26339 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but for most stuff, it refers to those things only on particular compilers
< 1429305224 13310 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on unknown compilers, it will use standard replacements for everything where it's possible
< 1429305232 289650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, but even /detecting/ the compiler is implementation namespace stuff, unless the compiler is outright breaking the standards
< 1429305237 535069 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION simply shouldn't write infinite loops as a macro

< 1429305245 67773 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well sure
< 1429305249 542964 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but there's a way out
< 1429305263 401155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :working on gcc-bf was weird
< 1429305268 101752 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: POSIX specifically says you can't rely on compiler extensions except where you document that in your implementation
< 1429305270 233615 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though in general you can  get *away* with just testing for compiler-defined macros.
< 1429305276 890366 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because suddenly I was working in implementation namespace myself
< 1429305284 177199 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: sure, that's the sensible and sane way to go about things
< 1429305289 93039 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :('get away', not 'you are permitted to by the standard' of course.)
< 1429305295 860766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I decided to implement POSIX literally to see what happened
< 1429305311 118715 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is much harder for some things than others.
< 1429305322 178929 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but if you're really picky about this, you could make it an option of ayacc to not include the ecb definitions
< 1429305353 143647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean an option /to/ include them?
< 1429305356 403689 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: either
< 1429305373 205736 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd always just ask ayacc to include them
< 1429305525 242796 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: basically, if I'd be on a compiler where libecb as a whole didn't work (as opposed to it just can't provide a few of its more tricky features), then I'm already screwed and my code will break in other places too
< 1429305537 649839 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't go strictly POSIX or strictly C99 or anything
< 1429305568 998127 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general I try to write strict POSIX or "will work on anything strict POSIX".
< 1429305575 543748 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm content with just marking nonportable stuff in my code with #ifndef #error so when you try to port it you get compiler errors pointinng out where all the code you ahve to modify is
< 1429305582 622599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's a scale from "practical" to "meets the letter of the standard"
< 1429305585 695223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I do depends on what I'm doing
< 1429305593 120094 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429305606 685855 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but every now and then I jam right against the right-hand end of the scale, just for fun
< 1429305616 318779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :last time was C-INTERCAL's autotools-based build system
< 1429305618 234435 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't, like, deliberately break compatibility when I don't need to
< 1429305631 64018 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I write nonportable code when it's easier, and mark it so I can change it later when it has to be ported
< 1429305637 749129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly the only time an autotools-based build system has worked exactly in the way that the autotools maintainers intend, for a nontrivial project?
< 1429305670 690234 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: which one is the right hand end?
< 1429305687 153587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one where you follow the standard exactly
< 1429305705 473544 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1429305798 679396 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@65-183-137-193-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1429305905 965173 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Element14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42604&oldid=42599 5* 03Phi 5* (+878) 10
< 1429305908 360077 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429305939 415168 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are you alreay planning to write specific backends other than the C/C++ one?
< 1429305941 616025 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services
< 1429305944 762161 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, for what language?
< 1429305944 875996 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523
< 1429305959 322302 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I have a Perl backend written already, although I haven't tested it yet beyond visual inspection of the source
< 1429305968 925040 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see
< 1429305980 904103 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not because you want to use ayacc to implement ayacc itself, right?
< 1429306033 643394 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, if ayacc got so successful that bison is abandonned, then the perl people will be in trouble because it will be difficult to bootstrap perl without perl
< 1429306040 836864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, it isn't implemented in itself
< 1429306055 39712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: nah, they'd just keep a copy of its output around
< 1429306071 336248 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure
< 1429306114 34153 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's not like Perl doesn't already have bootstrapping problems.
< 1429306123 667417 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what?
< 1429306127 596116 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl builds Perl so it can build more Perl.
< 1429306137 443001 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Perl build system builds a minimal Perl
< 1429306140 151917 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but it boostraps fine withotu a perl to start from
< 1429306141 926645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then uses that for the rest of the build
< 1429306151 320636 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but it doesn't cross compile well. :)
< 1429306152 671802 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's only one level deep anyway
< 1429306188 490267 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION does not understand the obsession with having languages with only a bootstrapping implementation

< 1429306193 293180 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: sure, but it native compiles everywhere, and is relatively quickly compile
< 1429306221 243775 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well, if your language is intended to be for compiler writing, then bootstrapping it is a good demonstration of that fact
< 1429306235 235049 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note, "only". I can understand having one, and even having that be the preferred one. But c'mon, you should at least have a simple compiler in C so you can use it without having a compiler already.)
< 1429306237 647800 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and also a good test
< 1429306241 447677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many languages don't need a boostrap because compiling's not what they're for
< 1429306254 64584 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to bring up INTERCAL as an example, but then I remembered CLC-INTERCAL
< 1429306267 175878 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of errors, including hardware errors, that you can catch by getting a segfault during compiling gcc
< 1429306268 351783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is written in IACC, and the IACC compiler is also written in IACC
< 1429306298 259189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the distribution contains a precompiled bytecode version of the compiler so that you can get started
< 1429306313 301207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect CLC_INTERCAL does thst just because it can, though
< 1429306319 513381 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghc actually scares me a lot
< 1429306324 626035 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of the way it's built
< 1429306329 344629 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, c'mon GHC. There should be a simple, generic Haskell compiler that can build you.
< 1429306339 845649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't GHC outright run regex on the output asm?
< 1429306342 788876 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that something else?
< 1429306346 589111 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care if it's shit or not, it should at least be good enough to get you a GHC.
< 1429306350 51742 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It *used to*.
< 1429306359 19322 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: When it compiled by way of C.
< 1429306372 467611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't that lose like half the reason to compile via C?
< 1429306374 416433 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it either code gens itself entirely or uses LLVM.
< 1429306391 784948 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well admittedly
< 1429306415 768855 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was an evil mangler and the satanic splitter, iirc both are/were some horrific perl mess
< 1429306417 9383 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghc scares me in ways other than its build procedure too
< 1429306424 536983 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has a similar complaint with C++...

< 1429306425 821613 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's very few things in ghc that don't scare me
< 1429306437 72265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, ayacc's output is designed to be easy to optimize, so I've been looking at the output asm and it does seem to be optimized quite well
< 1429306453 167889 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Rust.
< 1429306461 352825 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think ghc is getting somewhat saner these days
< 1429306463 957943 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still very scary
< 1429306468 653145 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but improving
< 1429306492 870361 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it won't get to the state where you can just build it without a haskell implementation ever of course
< 1429306496 338212 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still
< 1429306535 35544 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it just works as a sane direct compiler these days, implemented in haskell
< 1429306536 167425 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what language do you think Rust should be implemented in? C is clearly unthinkable, because the point of Rust is to replace C
< 1429306542 498341 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :without any of the evil mangler or compile through C stuff
< 1429306563 179386 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I *am 100% fine with* the reasonable, high quality implementation being bootstrapped.
< 1429306564 215754 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: couldn't there be two implementations, one in C or C++ and one in rust?
< 1429306595 216187 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is there should be at least a naive, inefficient but functional implementation that is suitable for bootstrapping said implementation.
< 1429306598 856080 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most compiler teams have enough problems maintaining just one implementation
< 1429306622 873322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, how easy would type erasure be for Rust?
< 1429306629 305551 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're not telling me a parser that outputs naive C is going to be that bad.
< 1429306643 296172 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no no, it'd be two teams: the gcc team maintains the C++ implementation, like they do for gccgo, and the rust enthusiasts maintain the rust implementation
< 1429306691 277225 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I do mean "naive"... When you're wanting something that's just sufficient for getting something going it doesn't have to be even faintly optimizing or even all that efficient.
< 1429306723 331289 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even all that general if you don't mind writing your "real" compiler in a subset of the language...
< 1429306770 285512 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes, but a good compiler is complicated and hard to maintain, which is why gcc is written in C++ these days, not in, like, portable c89
< 1429306788 656627 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not asking for a good one.
< 1429306793 285492 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and C++ is very difficult to compile even naively
< 1429306797 46516 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to C
< 1429306798 451745 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking for one that suffices to get your good one running.
< 1429306802 170471 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why they're separate languages really
< 1429306815 97749 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is easy to compile if you don't want optimizations, C++ is very difficult
< 1429306832 109764 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is kinda an all-around bad language though.
< 1429306837 218894 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not!
< 1429306855 404400 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so it's a spectacular esolang.
< 1429306875 382701 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that either
< 1429306875 433788 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like C++
< 1429306875 433836 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really like it
< 1429306905 294137 :pikhq!~pikhq@2001:470:c47a:1:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stockholm syndrome much?
< 1429306938 37364 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4C6F4.access.telenet.be QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1429307176 935124 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how much does trying to support multiple restrict what kind of optimized code you can want to emit?
< 1429307217 95023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way it works is, some fragments don't exist in some languages, then you don't run the matching optimizations
< 1429307223 405014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :either because you can't or because you don't need to
< 1429307229 12047 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see
< 1429307243 967376 :ProofTechnique!~ptech@c-24-147-92-185.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429307259 985490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, atm pointing multiple switch case labels at the same code works in C but not in Perl, it just copies the body
< 1429307290 257931 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? why wouldn't it work in perl? 
< 1429307313 465630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not with the hash-of-subs thing, at least not as a literal
< 1429307321 657588 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you don't have to use a hash literal
< 1429307349 642858 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a hash literal doesn't even have an advantage because I think it won't ever be optimized to creating the hash only once
< 1429307353 690451 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1429307362 660531 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just write my%h; $h{foo}=$h{bar}=sub{...};
< 1429307414 159619 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to use the hash literal for readability
< 1429307417 3243 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, hmm
< 1429307422 748435 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1429307428 28913 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a hash literal is actually less readable
< 1429307448 68880 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :$h{foo} = sub { ... }; is better because the sub bodies can be long and that way you see at the sub head what you're defining
< 1429307590 905713 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people write hash literals for this but I just don't agree with that. it's just pointless. I think it's mostly beginners who don't understand what a hash is and think of it as a braced list syntactical thing rather than a structure you can indexed lookup and indexed assign efficiently
< 1429307619 660814 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that clearly doesn't apply to you)
< 1429307634 530448 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :$h{foo} = sub { ... }; is good syntax and readable
< 1429307686 801464 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, even with a hash literal you can just say sub foo { ... }; our %h = { foo => \&foo, bar => \&foo, };
< 1429307701 30892 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, although then you have to name the block
< 1429307713 369111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the point is that these are short one-off things
< 1429307718 434629 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are?
< 1429307719 848351 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1429307725 655394 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they are then a hash literal might make sense
< 1429307727 427901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're the cases of a switch statement
< 1429307735 571747 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm shoving SLOBOL aside and creating a different language called SLOBOL.
< 1429307736 535101 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, those can be long blocks too
< 1429307746 41115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're mostly just a couple of function calls and a goto, some are even simpler than that, few are more complex
< 1429307776 707547 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, even for simple blocks $h{foo} = sub { ... }; isn't too much of an overhead probably
< 1429307790 669994 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Tanner Swett 5*  10moved [[02SLOBOL10]] to [[SLOBOL (2005 language)]]: Shoving this aside to make a new language with the same name
< 1429307790 875937 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Tanner Swett 5*  10moved [[02Talk:SLOBOL10]] to [[Talk:SLOBOL (2005 language)]]: Shoving this aside to make a new language with the same name
< 1429307803 928281 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07414]]4 M10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42609&oldid=42600 5* 03Vriskanon 5* (+115) 10Explained the mathematically inaccurate joke surrounding the language's origin
< 1429307842 653392 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the old and ugly interpreter in http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/psz-snapshot.tgz has one or two large code dispatcher hashes defined in the $h{foo} = sub { ... }; way,
< 1429307865 212339 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :including the $op has which defines how each operation of the optree is implemented, mapping opcode names to subs that run them
< 1429307903 474244 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and two smaller code dispatch hashes that help parsing
< 1429307953 155969 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, normally if something appears in that interpreter, then it's a bad idea code-style wise
< 1429307976 987108 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think provided you actually want hashes of code, then that's the best syntax
< 1429308007 844872 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's got that particular thing right
< 1429308135 4563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I actually want is a C-style switch statement
< 1429308148 606366 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, you're correct that such a thing is difficult in perl
< 1429308178 488040 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this for the perl backend? or for the ayacc interpreter itself?
< 1429308182 886389 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl backend
< 1429308190 344544 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1429308204 183186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically because in a parser impl, you have to at least /try/ to aim for efficiency
< 1429308221 4925 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it output xs code that calls back the actions in perl :-)
< 1429308221 444762 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :trout
< 1429308230 463729 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, certainly
< 1429308242 293282 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well
< 1429308254 376191 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to try to aim for efficiency in a general parser generator
< 1429308257 942216 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in all handwritten parsers
< 1429308287 227224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not 100% convinced that the parser it uses for reading yacc code is even O(n)
< 1429308309 965831 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is it at least O(n**(1+epsilon)) ?
< 1429308355 671582 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's O(n**2) for finding the end of a %{%} or %union {} block, I think
< 1429308377 260504 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or O(n**(1+epsilon)) on condition that the yacc code doesn't contain tokens (such as identifiers) that are longer than a constant)
< 1429308383 216724 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see
< 1429308446 49781 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you'll certainly try ayacc on largish grammars, and if this doesn't cause a practical problem there then it's probably fine
< 1429308483 468008 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I dunno, the C-intercal grammar, the perl grammar, the ruby grammar, I dunno what else
< 1429308521 584122 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, compiling perl with ayacc and then running the perl testsuite might be a good test for ayacc
< 1429308544 319176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never compiled Perl from source
< 1429308554 994380 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what
< 1429308557 444952 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange
< 1429308559 697225 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I have
< 1429308564 677781 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :many times
< 1429308575 523333 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on windows, mind you
< 1429308628 54627 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might try to compile it with ayacc, though I can't guarantee I can do that
< 1429308657 872514 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll definitely be able compile the geo interpreter with ayacc, but that's a simple toy with very few tests so it doesn't help much
< 1429308696 791840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: atm the grammar has to be weird enough that it isn't optimized into something the backend can't handle
< 1429308734 477134 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, maybe I should try to compile ruby with ayacc too
< 1429308740 3374 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but again I can't guarantee anything
< 1429308752 330456 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not as good a test as with perl
< 1429308781 78784 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will build c-intercal with ayacc, right?
< 1429308795 287049 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a test, yes
< 1429308801 793623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it won't become part of the build system permanently
< 1429308807 445053 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1429308839 363758 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1429309004 407903 :TieSoul_!~quassel@86.89.119.147 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429309171 753469 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Element14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42610&oldid=42604 5* 03Phi 5* (+735) 10
< 1429309209 683461 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07SLOBOL14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42611&oldid=42606 5* 03Tanner Swett 5* (+1254) 10New language
< 1429309234 656976 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1429309253 624984 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can someone give me admin access on the wiki, thanks.
< 1429309300 731992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: possibly, what do you want it for?
< 1429309316 652344 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deleting [[Talk:SLOBOL]].
< 1429309319 581585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually let me check I have the perms first
< 1429309329 616523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the redirect?
< 1429309334 734667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can just delete that for you
< 1429309345 548306 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just edit it, actually.
< 1429309355 462560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that'd probably be easier
< 1429309359 508573 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:SLOBOL14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42612&oldid=42608 5* 03Tanner Swett 5* (+0) 10Change redirect to a bit of text saying "see also"
< 1429309377 217407 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had admin access eight or so years ago, and surely I'm only more mature now.
< 1429309412 975856 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems I do have the perms, but it's probably worth talking it over with the other admins first; there's no rush
< 1429309435 746462 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's my campaign speech:
< 1429309441 418612 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Feel free to give me admin access if you want."
< 1429309446 787316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: you actually already do have admin access, just on another account
< 1429309447 99981 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :You people change nicks too often
< 1429309455 175850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, I'm assuming ihope127 is yours
< 1429309466 412075 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope127 is mine indeed.
< 1429309486 267496 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use it any more and I don't remember the password. I could reset the password if I wanted, but I won't.
< 1429309510 808555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't have an email set, so I can't verify it like that
< 1429309514 497175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not publicly
< 1429309548 469460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the problem is that when it comes to wiki administration, I slip into Wikipedia mode
< 1429309585 430638 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and am thinking "I'd be happy to move admin perms between accounts, but how do I know that the person who's editing as Tanner Swett and is on IRC as tswett right now is formerly-ihope127 and not an imposter"
< 1429309603 987708 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm.
< 1429309743 954844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :        ok so tswett is not ihope127 but elliott is me.  got it.
< 1429309749 541050 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the log history is looking bad ;-)
< 1429309753 989122 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you believe me if I sent you an email from ihope127@gmail.com and/or received an email there?
< 1429309810 911038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a case of believing you but being unsure how much verification I need
< 1429309853 476735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: OK, I've verified that ihope127+w@gmail.com is ihope127
< 1429309881 958217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from B Nomic archives
< 1429309885 740565 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429309889 66529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, we can do this by email
< 1429309897 672261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll send, From: addresses can be forged
< 1429309937 281361 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All right.
< 1429310031 775608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, sent
< 1429310037 929674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may well end up in with other B Nomic stuff
< 1429310179 568911 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you get an autoresponse instructing you to use a different contact method?
< 1429310215 372564 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/rights14]]4 rights10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10changed group membership for User:Ihope127 from sysop to (none): Moving permissions to a different account, via IRC request (I've verified account ownership)
< 1429310235 776347 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/rights14]]4 rights10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10changed group membership for User:Tanner Swett from (none) to sysop: Moving permissions to a different account, via IRC request (I've verified account ownership)
< 1429310263 298198 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did now, it was a little slow
< 1429310556 313188 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not proof, tswett could have emailed that address and seen that it gives such an autoresponse prior
< 1429310571 828269 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's not what the verification was.
< 1429310580 594031 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1429310589 676325 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The verification was that I knew the content of an email sent to that address.
< 1429310649 516862 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Advanced Account Accountability
< 1429310660 578659 :Tritonio!~tr@2a04:1980:3100:1aac:92e2:baff:fe42:f24c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429310678 213969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I sent a randomly generated string to the address, tswett sent it back by IRC PM
< 1429310688 806093 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1429310712 838182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you know he didn't just intercept it
< 1429310723 306886 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :along its path to the destination
< 1429310732 534451 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no proofs.
< 1429310745 921943 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wiki is http, so someone who could do that could do the same to an admin password
< 1429310748 362261 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 might be living in a simulation for all he knows. (if ais523 exists...)
< 1429310749 776250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and take over an admin account that way
< 1429310818 766658 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's fizzie's domain that rot14's to 'nsa', not tswett's
< 1429310850 158281 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it say about me that I can reverse rot14 in my head? (albeit slowly)
< 1429310872 315827 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1429310890 459543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: mail is more susceptible, though
< 1429310916 949598 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean compared to being an AS or something
< 1429310929 259191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OK, so what you do instead is, you send a password reset for an admin
< 1429310930 979854 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and intercept that
< 1429310947 771776 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm
< 1429310952 428526 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you don't get to choose either address there, though
< 1429310957 162451 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett got to choose the destination address here
< 1429310979 875782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no, he had to pick an address that verifiably belonged to ihope127
< 1429310983 466170 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: lbh pna ernq ebg guvegrra syhragyl?
< 1429311042 809969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't rot14 :-(
< 1429311061 350854 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course not, rot14 is too uncommon.
< 1429311075 51068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, if it's rot13, the second word is "can"
< 1429311076 866200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this seems promising
< 1429311140 976391 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you can read rot thirteen fluently?"
< 1429311145 206237 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, still pretty slow
< 1429311157 333067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :would have been faster to just use a rot13 decoder
< 1429311182 739107 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but given the subject of the conversation, I pretty much had to do it manually
< 1429311183 893567 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(tbf I *did* use a rot13 encoder)
< 1429311195 492801 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :encoding is much harder than decoding, if you're doing it manually
< 1429311216 333737 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :egb13 is the only thing I recognize reliably.
< 1429311221 37736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can guess words from a partial decoding
< 1429311230 989643 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note the swapped letters ;) )
< 1429311236 642464 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14 is harder than 12 because it's not trivially reversible
< 1429311253 695860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, rot26 and rot52, as are sometimes used on Slashdot, are easiest
< 1429311279 397732 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka double-rot-13 and quadruple-rot-13?
< 1429311329 331737 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep
< 1429311792 370065 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd think it'd be more secure
< 1429311799 675249 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :á la triple DES
< 1429311803 100979 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadruple rot13 is actually less secure than triple rot13.
< 1429311827 807895 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429311840 667680 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1429311849 475414 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rot13 is a so-called... uh, what's it called.
< 1429311858 221407 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Characteristic-2 automorphism, I think it's called?
< 1429311864 88820 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523
< 1429311875 759362 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which results in cancellative properties of iterations which are multiples of 2.
< 1429311880 379860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*14 is harder than 13
< 1429311927 608595 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involution_%28mathematics%29
< 1429311950 212833 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not just a -tion, it's an -ism!
< 1429311954 79042 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...in the category of sets.
< 1429311985 504766 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like all the abstract nonsense.
< 1429312030 679821 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? category theory
< 1429312045 966840 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories.
< 1429312059 93363 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :theories form a category?
< 1429312068 424594 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly.
< 1429312080 816594 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can make them into a discrete category
< 1429312087 498184 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, of course. There's work on embedding logics (theories) in other logics
< 1429312089 793987 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't see an obvious way to add extra structure
< 1429312098 139429 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A morphism from a theory T to a theory U consists of a function from terms in T to terms in U, and a function from models of U to models of T, which are adjoint.
< 1429312110 98798 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OSLT.
< 1429312120 267269 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? OSLT
< 1429312120 964928 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OSLT? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1429312126 410371 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-116-33.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that actually true? I was just putting words together to make it look good
< 1429312132 814967 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"or something like that"
< 1429312205 845864 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, that helped
< 1429312299 50189 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Adjoint" here means that given a term in T and a model of U, interpreting the term in T in the image of the model of U gives the same result as interpreting the image of the term in T in the model of U.
< 1429312677 724182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it's category theory, it's hard to find something it doesn't apply to
< 1429312686 249724 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few years in my research, I found something that wasn't a category
< 1429312691 390740 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everyone was very surprised
< 1429313281 40001 :TieSoul_!~quassel@86.89.119.147 QUIT :Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.
< 1429313332 884028 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1429313365 482651 :TieSoul!~quassel@86.89.119.147 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429313638 300665 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Legend tells of categories that can't be represented as concrete categories.
< 1429313710 695022 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, let's see if we can write a program in SLOBOL.
< 1429313835 778406 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :
< 1429313846 703906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429314252 653608 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can probably do AND and OR, aye?
< 1429314266 758046 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This group is alive if and only if this group and/or this group is alive.
< 1429314567 728187 :FireFly!~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds more like go than programming
< 1429314581 571018 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@199-241-202-205.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1429314661 792022 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Go programming.
< 1429314696 631319 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simpler problem: make it so that group B is alive iff group A is alive.
< 1429314838 47255 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2a85f.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1429314931 578045 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2a85f.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric