00:00:12 * boily is disturbed to find he's only one step away from fungot...
00:00:12 <fungot> boily: i was going to ask " i am alive") -3? mines " friends"
00:00:23 <boily> fungot: you. are. not. alive. stop being sentient.
00:00:23 <fungot> boily: pittsburgh is a harsh mistress guy. :) there were some nice talks as well"? :p
00:00:44 <boily> fungot: and don't frolicate with guys from Pittsburgh! you'll catch something.
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00:27:35 <FireFly> fungot: crazy symbols and actions? maybe you're thinking of APL
00:27:35 <fungot> FireFly: an error: invalid output format ( result was not a tease, i was
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00:27:59 <FireFly> fungot: you sure were, yes
00:27:59 <fungot> FireFly: lazy-k can execute s and k. they went under the middle finger, the same time.
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02:49:49 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/e0lk07545/ <- dwarven apartment complexes, carved from the living rock
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04:24:15 <HackEgo> olist 983: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
04:24:57 <Sgeo> I was looking at that exact twitter feed just now, and getting annoyed that something screwed up the apostrophe
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04:32:53 <Jafet> Living rock? Sounds like an evil biome thing.
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05:30:59 <oren> nah, just a poetic/dramatic way of saying "natural engravable stone"
05:32:01 <oren> The mountain I picked reaches almost to 256, so I was able to carve quite a hive-city out of it
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06:45:51 <b_jonas> oren: ah great, images made of tiles that the wobsite insists on making a “thumbnail” image despite that the original resolution compresses so well because of the tiles that the file size of the original is actually way smaller
06:46:25 <b_jonas> oren: on this site, it's a jpeg thumbnail of a png file. on http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/ , it's resampled thumbnails made of every level map.
06:46:58 <b_jonas> these wobsites should really check the damned file size of the result, and use the original if it's smaller.
06:48:16 <oren> that's also why I can use DF over X network wihout any problem
06:50:26 <oren> speaking of website problems, google no longer works on text-browsers, because it refereshes infinitely
06:50:48 <b_jonas> eg. http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/File:Ck2lv16.png the original file is 28 kilobytes, the rescaled thumbnail is 235 kilobytes.
06:51:21 <b_jonas> I mean, maybe it has ugly layout or something
06:51:33 <b_jonas> (it already has on anything without css)
06:52:09 <b_jonas> indeed it tries to refresh infinitely
06:53:53 <oren> Bing, yahoo, yandex and baidu still work.
06:54:10 <Sgeo> oren, is that related to why sometimes Chrome Incognito crashes on Google search results?
06:54:19 * Sgeo has actually used Bing at times because of that
06:54:28 <b_jonas> (my own homepage should work, though the layout is uglier)
06:55:56 <b_jonas> but yes, I too am noticing an increasing amount of sites that require crazy javascript browser stunts and still show up broken
06:56:10 <b_jonas> I don't know why they do that
06:57:40 <b_jonas> you know when I asked if there were wikis that used a vcs as their storage engine?
06:58:21 <b_jonas> I realized github might be used as such a wiki, because it shows you a vcs-controlled tree, and can formats documents with some wiki language.
06:59:12 <oren> yeah, that works.
07:03:26 <b_jonas> so basically any of the dozens of web vcs ifaces work if you throw in a wiki formatter
07:11:25 <fowl> your project wiki is a repository on bitbucket, i assume its the same for githubs wikis
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07:56:38 <oren> as I always say, the best defense is a deep deep trench
08:00:50 <nortti> 09:58 < b_jonas> you know when I asked if there were wikis that used a vcs as their storage engine? <-- there was also one by suckless, altho in the good old suckless fashion it lacked vital features like web editor
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08:41:02 <oren> I have to admit, that if your crossing guards can beat enemy commandos that is one way to stop a fifth coloumn
09:02:03 <nvd> Aaaaaaaaah
09:23:43 <izabera> !bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.......
09:27:49 <oren> I not sure I folow. it looks like a typical old man haircut
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09:51:32 <oren> lol. I would probably vote for anyone who had a silly enough hairstyle
09:51:39 <nvd> Oh yeah, I need to vote
09:51:57 <nvd> TO THE POLLS!
09:58:19 <elliott> can I vote? I guess I am of voting age now. weird.
10:03:05 <oren> then i guess you can vote, assuming you want to
10:04:22 <elliott> there are other obstacles to that, but yes, I don't think my vote would be particularly relevant anyway
10:05:23 <oren> (electoral district) is very large, so my vote counts for very little
10:05:49 <b_jonas> riding amulet? that doesn't exist
10:06:04 <b_jonas> there's riding boots and riding gloves
10:06:22 <oren> BLAH this keyboard is all msesed up
10:07:12 <oren> i'm using a 10 year old laptop to talk to my 3 year old laptop
10:09:21 <oren> It has the symbols in weird places, like there is a $ and a euro sign next to the arrow keys
10:09:57 <oren> and the enter button is shaped wrong
10:11:30 <nvd> elliott, if you registered in time, you can vote
10:11:38 <nvd> And PARTICIPATE IN DEMOCRACY
10:11:41 <b_jonas> oren: can you just plug in an external keyboard?
10:11:55 <oren> why did i not think of that
10:11:55 <elliott> nvd: okay, yeah, I didn't register.
10:12:05 <nvd> Then you can't vote
10:12:14 <nvd> Mystery solved, I guess
10:15:15 <oren> dastards! the plug isthe round one, and I don't have an adapter
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10:16:36 <b_jonas> oh dear. the puns, they're horrible. they burn.
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10:20:02 <oren> damn it this is what happens when you change the plugs! All plugs for each peripheral should stay the same forever
10:21:16 <b_jonas> oren: changed from what to what this time?
10:21:52 <oren> Well the laptop has usb only, and I only have round-plug keyboards
10:24:35 <oren> The round plug ones let you press more buttons at once
10:25:58 <oren> I think there is a proper name for the round plug but I don't know it
10:28:05 <oren> Oh right. I'ts
10:28:18 <oren> stupid enter key
10:29:44 <oren> I think they changed from PS/2 to usb so they could make the laptops thinner. ashats
10:29:58 <int-e> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_connector
10:32:25 <oren> so they changed it before that, from a think that looks almost the same as a PS/2 but is incompatible? asshats
10:35:04 <oren> they could have just switched to a 8-pin DIN for backward compatibility
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10:40:59 <b_jonas> the small round plug is PS/2, the big round plug is AT (DIN)
10:41:17 <b_jonas> oren: no, it looks _nothing_ like a PS/2
10:42:24 <oren> damn they should put somehting in the photo for scale
10:42:45 <b_jonas> I don't know why motherboards have changed away from AT plug, but that's happened like 15 years ago, sadly
10:43:38 <oren> how many q's can you put in \quad
10:43:42 <b_jonas> today's motherboards often don't work properly with AT keyboards even with a passive AT-PS2 converters
10:43:47 <int-e> cheaper parts, maybe.
10:44:11 <b_jonas> int-e: possible, because this way the mouse and keyboard uses the same type of connector
10:44:26 <b_jonas> or maybe PS/2 is just smaller so it fits better on a notebook
10:44:50 <int-e> Right, but mice could've used the DIN connector as well. Heck they used the even larger serial connector for some time.
10:46:51 <b_jonas> they could have just kept the serial port if they gave the serial port controller a better interface (with a buffer so the cpu doesn't have to be interrupted for every fricking byte read or written)
10:47:12 <b_jonas> it could even be backwards compatible for both software and periferials
10:49:06 <oren> with today's 6 core and 8 core computers couldn't you just interrupt only one particular core?
10:49:26 <b_jonas> but still, interrupting for each fricking byte is a waste
10:49:35 <oren> should be each block
10:49:36 <b_jonas> it made sense back when that made the controller hw cheaper
10:50:09 <oren> good for a responsive mouse though I bet
10:50:22 <b_jonas> but these days every controller is handled by a small microcontroller that can handle a small buffer. probably serial port controllers are too.
10:50:41 <b_jonas> do you remember when laser printers had 128 megabyte of memory in them?
10:50:51 <b_jonas> well, these days hard disks have 64 megabyte of ram
10:50:59 <b_jonas> they're throwing megabytes at everything
10:52:58 <boily> b_jellonas. wait wait wait. you're saying that hard drives have ram???
10:53:20 <oren> Yeah they cache your accesses
10:53:58 <b_jonas> that they have ram is not surprising, it's that they have so much ram that's strange
10:55:45 <oren> I assume it is so that they can read ahead several blocks and serve them up continuously
10:56:47 <oren> Eventually they will export the whole filesystem into the hard disk's controller
10:56:56 <b_jonas> sure, but sixty four megabytes? we used to run entire computers in that
10:57:40 <b_jonas> also, I'm downloading files from the internet that are larger than the whole hard disk capacity I had back then,
10:57:48 <b_jonas> and working with data of sizes I couldn't even imagine would exist
10:58:00 <b_jonas> and I'm not even working with large databases like some people I see on the internet do
10:58:59 <oren> One corpus I am currently semi-working on is 10GB of CSV data
10:59:10 <oren> detailing hockey players
10:59:18 <b_jonas> oren: doesn't sound too big
10:59:35 <oren> it isn't that big in todays terms
10:59:44 <oren> but that's what I mean
11:00:02 <b_jonas> do you load all of it in memory?
11:01:00 <oren> no, i don't have enough memory, so my programs have to act on streams
11:01:52 <oren> I wonder if I could get 6GB of memory on AWS
11:02:03 <oren> that would make things easier
11:02:54 <Phantom_Hoover> nvd, i saw that hexham's counting isn't due to finish until noon tomorrow
11:03:05 <nvd> Phantom_Hoover, good think I'm in York Central
11:03:12 <b_jonas> I enjoy how the computers got more powerful though.
11:03:44 <oren> yeah... the problem is how we all waste the power we are give so much
11:05:36 <oren> I mean, I'm wasting a ton of cpu and memory by storing this data as CSV
11:06:33 <oren> have to parse text number to binary, do math, then convert back with every operationO\
11:07:39 <oren> I wonder how efficient the scanf implementation is?
11:17:19 <oren> Bah I oughta be using fwrite fread for this
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11:27:21 <Jafet> RAID controller firmware is already more complicated than filesystems.
11:30:41 <oren> I dunno much about RAID, but I was thinking that maybe the next gen disks could take an inode number and offset to read or write
11:33:18 <nvd> Phantom_Hoover, Hexham'll go conservative almost certainly, though
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12:50:12 <callforjudgement> <spambot> This letter will definitely be amazing to you because of its realistic value.
12:50:22 <callforjudgement> that spam caught my eye because the subject line was a couple of IPs
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14:30:33 <oren> success. 10GB of CSV = 5 GB of union{int64_t i;double d;}
14:31:42 <oren> still too large to fit in memory
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14:32:59 <nvd> Do you need it all in memory, oren ?
14:33:41 <oren> no,, but it would make certain operations faster, in particular sorting the data
14:34:28 <oren> also now I need to rewrite my programs for the new format. but not having to parse CSV should remove a lot of overhead
14:37:02 <elliott> er, what are you using that union for?
14:37:30 <oren> Don't worry I'm not using both members at once
14:37:52 <elliott> right I figured you're more ethical than that
14:37:54 <oren> Which it is depends on the column number
14:37:59 <elliott> but do you know the type contextually, or do you have a type tag?
14:38:26 <elliott> oren: if you know the layout of each row, why not just make a struct for the row?
14:38:27 <oren> E.g. column 5 is the player who assisted
14:38:48 <oren> because it's a pain in the butt
14:39:25 <elliott> are you just mmapping a file and using it directly? make sure you take into account alignment and endianness concerns and so on
14:39:29 <oren> also it allows the conversion program to be generic
14:39:47 <oren> nah, fread fwrite
14:40:00 <oren> I don't have enough memory to mmap the whole file
14:40:34 <elliott> erm, mmap doesn't use physical memory, it uses virtual memory
14:40:40 <elliott> that's the whole point in fact
14:41:08 <elliott> (ok, yes, some of the file will probably get cached in memory or whatever, but that happens whenever you use files and it doesn't make you run out)
14:41:37 <elliott> okay, okay, with overcommit disabled things can get a bit dicey, but I don't think it complains about file-backed overcommit then, just anonymous?
14:41:49 <elliott> but also turning overcommit off entirely breaks lots of things and the default is lenient
14:42:01 <oren> i'm not actually modifying the file.
14:42:25 <elliott> I would say mmap is more useful for reading than modifying anyway...
14:42:29 <oren> I'm reading over it and generating another file e.g. running averages of a player's perfoirmance
14:42:49 <elliott> it just sounds like you vastly underestimate mmap in general
14:43:31 <oren> The datails of what I'm doing are told to me by someone who actually follows hockey
14:43:42 <elliott> I would almost say mmap is the whole point of virtual memory with unix
14:43:56 <elliott> but that might be a little hyperbolic
14:45:29 <oren> can I be sued for downloading an entire website and converting it to CSV?
14:45:30 <b_jonas> I'd say mmap is the main _interface_ for users processes to control virtual memory (together with munmap, mremap, mprotect, madvise, msync, and execve)
14:46:12 <elliott> b_jonas: right, I just mean that you can think of it as the "killer app" in some sense
14:46:15 <b_jonas> though POSIX defines abstractions like shm_* over it (and it doesn't even insist that those are implemented in terms of mmap)
14:46:29 <elliott> oren: the answer to "can I be sued for X" is yes, pretty much
14:46:53 <elliott> ideally, ask first, but at least use reasonable rate limits if not
14:48:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42807&oldid=42805 * IanO * (+506) /* Examples */
14:48:59 <oren> hmm.. they disallow some parts, but not the giant database I'm after.
14:49:33 <oren> The data I have, I got from a zip someone else made
14:52:16 <oren> wow this is a lot of data. it details who was on ice when, for every game since 1980
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15:44:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small s.c.r.i.p.t.]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42808&oldid=36724 * Esowiki201529A * (+0)
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16:47:47 <nortti> https://github.com/stedolan/bf.sed so, this is a thing
16:50:35 <oerjan> hm a compiler sed should be enough for that.
16:53:54 <fizzie> I was writing a Befunge-93 interpreter in sed, but never really finished.
16:54:35 <fizzie> I think it had the basic mechanisms of fetching instructions from the playfield, moving the IP, manipulating the stack, and that was about it.
16:58:07 <oerjan> hm was sed TC or not again
16:59:07 <oerjan> it had conditional jumps, so presumably
17:01:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's TC unless you're using one of those crazy variants that limits the length of the line to 1024 bytes -- but those variants are useless even for normal non-esoteric stuff.
17:01:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: I mean, come on, it can do fixed string substitutions, and can loop, so it's clearly turing complete.
17:03:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42809&oldid=42112 * 96.127.247.225 * (+17) Update pastebin link to github link
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17:37:29 <elliott> "there's no arithmetic in sed"
17:37:33 <elliott> pretty sure sed can do that?
17:37:44 <elliott> it's TC I think but I guess there might be restrictions on output there
17:38:36 <olsner> afaik, sed is a superset of Thue, which is also TC
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17:41:26 <int-e> @index Applicative
17:45:06 <elliott> thue is nondeterministic but yes
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17:51:30 <b_jonas> visual studio 2013 comes with the visual C++ 2013 compiler which is somehow also called msvc 1.2, and identifies itself as "Microsoft (R) Optimizing Compiler Version 18.00.30723.0"
17:51:44 <b_jonas> how do these version numbers work? is there somewhere that describes this?
17:52:24 <pikhq> Just remember it only implements a 25 year old version of C and you'll know all you need to about it.
17:52:54 <olsner> visual studio will have its own version number too, I don't remember how they map beyond VS .NET aka (iirc) 7.0 though
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18:20:20 <oerjan> <b_jonas> how do these version numbers work? is there somewhere that describes this? <-- i think the basica principle for version numbers is "you have to change the entire system at least once a decade" hth
18:21:05 <oerjan> what happened to the poor thing
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18:28:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42810&oldid=42742 * 31.185.153.201 * (+88) /* Befunge-98 and beyond */ Fungewars
18:29:38 <nortti> hmm, are there any actual examples of a universal turing machine - that is, a turing machine able to simulate any turing machine?
18:31:27 <nortti> hmm, I guess a minsky machine wouldn't be too hard to implement, however that'd feel just silly
18:33:46 <impomatic_> I think I've got an example here, but it's in a GIF or something...
18:34:27 <oerjan> it's not something that sounds particularly hard, it'd just be an interpreter...
18:34:52 <oerjan> unlike the godel sentence thing, i've read that's enormous
18:35:36 <oerjan> also, brainfuck can be almost trivially converted to TM form
18:36:49 <nortti> I "need" that for my extended essay (a research essay-ish thingie at IB), as I'm proving computational class of a certain kind of automation I invented, and I'd guess it'd be best to use a program that someone else has created, to make it more "convincing"
18:37:25 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure minsky made a particular one that was TC with no caveats
18:37:46 <oerjan> (stay away from the wolfram thingies with infinite setup)
18:38:26 <impomatic_> Does anyone here know about the Stanford AI Lab references in documents to show who wrote them? [S77,JMC] is obviously John McCarthy. But who wrote a file with [ G,REF]?
18:38:35 <nortti> (technically speaking, I don't need it, but I think it'd be best if I were to illustrate my translation process with some real world example, and preferably at the same time "double prove" the complenetess, as the people assessing it will not know that well this stuff)
18:42:23 <oerjan> annoyingly it seems hard to actually find an exact description of this. maybe ais523 knows one.
18:45:43 <impomatic_> nortti: found the file, not sure if it's something you've seen before http://imgur.com/afocBZq
18:47:13 <nortti> hmm, I guess I could try digging up the original paper and copying it from there, to seem extra-"professional"
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20:02:26 <FreeFull> oerjan: Brainfuck without IO qualifies
20:06:13 <oerjan> possibly nortti might not want to reference that, though
20:06:23 <oerjan> (although it's also known as P'')
20:15:36 <FreeFull> Brainfuck is too complicated anyway, there are similar languages that have fewer amenities and are still turing complete
20:16:55 <oerjan> FreeFull: you realize nortti already has a starting model in mind, right
20:17:19 <oerjan> so it's not very useful if the language is not easy to emulate in that
20:17:52 <FreeFull> oerjan: But the languages would be as easy as brainfuck to emulate
20:18:39 <oerjan> sure, take boolfuck if you want
20:24:05 <oerjan> FreeFull: i'm not sure how that | command is supposed to replace nested []
20:24:42 <FreeFull> Well, there is a brainfuck to tinybf translator
20:26:46 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
20:27:09 <oerjan> need something short with actual nesting hm
20:28:04 <fizzie> oerjan: Just put a loop-to-10 around something short that prints.
20:28:34 <fizzie> I had a simple counterexample for that one bf interpreter that had broken nested loops here.
20:29:37 <fizzie> Although I don't know how the code generated by the translator can work.
20:31:40 <oerjan> ^bf +++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]>.<<]
20:31:40 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
20:31:55 <fizzie> ^bf +++[->+++++[->+++++++++++++<]>.[-]<<]
20:32:09 <oerjan> fizzie: ok it actually works
20:32:53 <fizzie> From the code, I get the feeling that = is "lexically scoped" instead of "dynamically scoped".
20:33:04 <oerjan> ok obvious interpretation is that = is static so | is [ or ] dependent on = parity
20:33:13 <fizzie> We keep thinking of the same things.
20:33:49 <oerjan> FreeFull: the result is really that this isn't simpler than bf, though
20:34:05 <FreeFull> oerjan: Yeah, more state internally
20:34:24 <FreeFull> I wonder if there is another one that has the same amount of internal state
20:35:35 <oerjan> FreeFull: it's not even runtime state, it actually _is_ a bf equivalent when decoded.
20:36:28 <FreeFull> And you might as well encode bf in unary?
20:38:12 <oerjan> well for nortti's purpose you'd only need _one_ bf program encoded, a self-interpreter or the like.
20:38:38 <oerjan> (sounds a bit more verbose than minsky's TM, then)
20:39:08 <oerjan> almost certainly minsky's TM has really verbose programs on the tape, though. maybe it even uses a minsky machine :P
20:44:02 <impomatic_> ^bf +[-[<<[+[--->]-[<<<]]]>>>-]>-.---.>..>.<<<<-.<+.>>>>>.>.<<.<-.<<+.
20:44:29 <impomatic_> ^bf +>-[>>+>+[++>-<<]-<+<+]>---.<<<<++.<<----..+++.>------.<<+.>.+++.------.>>-.<+.
20:45:52 <impomatic_> Hello World! in 79 instructions. hello world! in 66 instructions. (from this webpage http://inversed.ru/InvMem.htm#InvMem_7)
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21:34:06 <nvd> Well, this is certainly an unexpected exit poll
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21:55:55 <spatterworhty> I'm thinking about making a piet assembler, but I'm having trouble figuring out how it would get the algorithm onto the picture.
21:57:23 <spatterworhty> It would first make a graph out of the program, that represents all of the commands of the program, and then it would figure out how to lay the graph down onto the picture in a way that fits nicely.
21:57:47 <oerjan> nvd: is ukip getting the prime minister twnh
21:58:03 <nvd> oerjan, almost certainly not
21:58:11 <nvd> It looks like they'll have precisely two MPs
21:58:25 <spatterworhty> Does anyone have any algorithm suggestions or problems to look at that would help?
21:59:01 <oerjan> graph rendering is definitely _not_ my area of expertise
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21:59:27 * oerjan points at nvd as the resident piet expert
21:59:39 <nvd> I haven't used Piet in years
21:59:50 <nvd> And I don't know a thing about graph rendering
21:59:52 <oerjan> you mentioned it yesterday!
21:59:58 <oerjan> or possibly today, evne
22:00:07 <nvd> Today, here at least
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22:00:12 <nvd> Maybe yesterday for you
22:00:14 <oerjan> nvd: still more qualified than me, hth
22:00:24 <shachaf> oerjan: you also mentioned piet today hth
22:00:25 <nvd> And that was to say I had forgotten what a program I wrote did!
22:00:36 <oerjan> for me, the boundary between today and yesterday gets a bit fuzzy
22:01:07 <shachaf> and now i've cursed myself
22:01:12 <nvd> spatterworhty, if the graph is planar, there's not too much issue, I think
22:01:22 <nvd> Otherwise, you can cross arcs with white space
22:01:33 <shachaf> oerjan: by being the most recent person to mention piet
22:01:40 <nvd> And then it's just the same graph rendering problem as all the rest
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22:02:21 <nvd> spatterworhty, does that help at all?
22:02:21 <oerjan> nvd: if only HackEgo still had access to the logs, we could make a command to check that
22:02:40 <nvd> oerjan, could we patch something up with curl?
22:02:45 <nvd> Or would that be too slow?
22:02:56 <nvd> `run curl --help
22:03:10 <HackEgo> Usage: curl [options...] <url> \ Options: (H) means HTTP/HTTPS only, (F) means FTP only \ --anyauth Pick "any" authentication method (H) \ -a, --append Append to target file when uploading (F/SFTP) \ --basic Use HTTP Basic Authentication (H) \ --cacert FILE CA certificate to verify peer against (SSL) \ --
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22:03:29 <oerjan> nvd: curl may not have access to that server
22:03:51 <shachaf> oerjan: check the world expert on that language, you mean?
22:03:52 <nvd> oerjan, it can scrape the public thingy/
22:04:04 <oerjan> shachaf: yep, aka most recent mentioner
22:04:22 <oerjan> nvd: you do know HackEgo's web access is whitelisted, right
22:04:28 <nvd> I did not!
22:04:35 <nvd> Like, I really did not
22:04:37 <oerjan> if it's even working at the moment
22:05:00 <oerjan> except for `fetch, which is outside the sandbox but you cannot use it in other commands
22:06:35 <oerjan> `curl http://www.esolangs.org
22:06:36 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ curl: (52) Empty reply from server
22:07:00 <oerjan> it's the same server, is that a problem
22:07:42 <oerjan> we sort of stopped using the web access after all the fun api's stopped working, so it's probably bit rotted
22:08:37 <oerjan> and someone said today a text browser cannot even get google
22:08:51 <oerjan> `curl http://www.google.com
22:08:52 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ curl: (52) Empty reply from server
22:10:29 <int-e> `` ps -a | sed 's=.* =='
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22:23:45 <FireFly> There's a google API that was deprecated five years ago but still works, at least
22:28:02 <spatterworhty> nvd: sorta? I was more hoping to learn if there would be any good resources to look at, or algorithms that would be essential. I can sorta visualize how it would work, but piet has a bunch of weird rules that would have to be incorporated into the design, and I've never worked with graphs.
22:28:42 <nvd> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_drawing could be a starting point
22:28:52 <nvd> This isn't something I've looked into before
22:46:47 <Melvar> Heh. This clause I just wrote: “eine als Queue verwendete doppelt verkettete Liste reicht.”
22:47:59 <Melvar> A not insignificant amount of stuff going between the article and its noun there.
22:51:58 <elliott> what's the gloss for that?
22:52:01 <elliott> (if you don't mind giving it)
22:52:30 <elliott> (er, in the sense of word-by-word literal "translation".)
22:56:07 <oerjan> an as queue used doubly linked list suffices
22:57:44 <elliott> I guess it's few enough words to just look them up.
22:57:48 <elliott> and some of them are obvious.
22:57:59 <oerjan> actually i only looked up "reicht" to check that i guessed it correctly
22:58:10 <oerjan> i did have 4 years of german, once
23:00:03 <oerjan> and every word in there has at least a partial cognate in english or norwegian
23:01:36 <Melvar> I suppose I could have replaced “Queue” with “Warteschlange” but I don’t know that that’s really used for the data structure much in practice.
23:01:37 <oerjan> but yeah german phrase order is something different from both
23:02:23 <Melvar> The “pure” German word for a queue.
23:02:52 * oerjan wonders if norwegian has one. "kø" is so much shorter.
23:03:25 <oerjan> there's "venteliste" but that's for writing your name on, not for actually standing in
23:03:40 <oerjan> and it's not reptile-based
23:04:52 <nvd> One thing I like about English is that it's able to take words from pretty much anywhere
23:04:58 <Melvar> For some reason “Schlange” is used for a line of waiting people. “Warteschlange” is a disambiguation versus a literal snake.
23:09:38 <Melvar> I was just writing out how the phrase is composed, but it turns out rather hard to follow. The main point is that argument(s) + participle makes a valid adjective phrase.
23:11:41 <Melvar> Amusingly, German also has “Queue” directly from French, pronounced /køː/, for a pool cue.
23:12:31 <FreeFull> The Polish word for snake also gets used for a hose (wąż)
23:12:39 <FreeFull> A line of waiting people is kolejka
23:13:01 <FreeFull> Which is a word that also relates to trains
23:13:35 <Melvar> And French “queue” means “tail” as well.
23:20:31 <FreeFull> Melvar: You should combine words into longer words
23:20:35 <FreeFull> You're writing German after all
23:25:29 <Melvar> If someone wants a funny gloss, I once composing a lojban sentence expressed “have nine tails” something like “be betailed by nine somethings” (se rebla so da).
23:26:25 <oerjan> the word for train in norwegian is also used for a line of people - but parading or demonstrating, not waiting
23:27:26 <FreeFull> In English, the word train can also be used to mean some form of practicing =P
23:27:27 <oerjan> oh and "kø" means pool cue too in norwegian
23:28:24 <Melvar> One can use “Zug”-related words for parading and demonstrating in German too, but as Mark Twain (?) noted, “Zug” with appropriate modifiers and affixes can be used to express practically anything.
23:29:25 <FreeFull> How many words can you name that have "zeug" in them?
23:29:36 <oerjan> Melvar: i think the -zug suffix that can mean absolutely everything is -tøy in norwegian. which alone means "cloth", somehow.
23:31:04 <oerjan> Werkzeug, verktøy, tool
23:32:29 <oerjan> the process of making jam
23:32:29 <Melvar> “Zeug” at some point meant something like “equipment”, and now by itself means “stuff” or “junk”.
23:32:46 <oerjan> but also some meat stuff
23:33:16 <FreeFull> The Polish word for jam is boring
23:33:37 <FreeFull> Dżem (pronounced similarly to jam, but with an e instead)
23:34:41 <oerjan> Melvar: looks possibly related
23:35:14 <oerjan> nedsyltet i gjeld = drowning in debt
23:35:25 <Melvar> oerjan: Looks like that is it, yes.
23:37:53 <oerjan> sylteagurk = pickled cucumber
23:38:15 <Melvar> It seems to be related to “salt” too.
23:38:36 <FreeFull> oerjan: Specifically a soured one, rather vinegar?
23:38:59 <oerjan> FreeFull: "Sylteagurk er agurker som er syltet i en sursøt eddiklake."
23:39:51 <oerjan> oh sorry, confusing you with FireFly
23:40:18 <oerjan> but "in a sour-sweet vinegar brine" is probably the end of that
23:41:16 <oerjan> Melvar: i note that's apparently Salzgurke in german, so...
23:41:27 <Melvar> oerjan: Depends on the region actually.
23:41:49 <Melvar> I would call it a saure Gurke.
23:42:13 <oerjan> right, de.wikipedia gives both
23:42:36 <Melvar> The German wp article describes them as cucumbers preserved through lactic acid fermentation.
23:43:34 <oerjan> Melvar: hm i wonder if german Geld and norwegian gjeld are cognate, despite having almost opposite meanings
23:44:06 <oerjan> i suppose recipes always vary.
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23:45:58 <oerjan> hm seems so, although wiktionary is missing the norwegian, swedish gäld is cognate.
23:46:59 <Melvar> Hahahah, the synonyms section on “Geld”.
23:47:25 <FreeFull> The Polish word for money is completely unrelated
23:47:39 <FreeFull> What's norwegian for "border"?
23:48:07 <oerjan> FreeFull: for countries, grense
23:48:10 <Melvar> Ash, gravel, clay, coal, toads, mice, …, moss, …
23:48:42 <FreeFull> oerjan: Pretty much the same as German then
23:48:58 <oerjan> FreeFull: the norwegian word for money is "penger" (plural)
23:49:12 <oerjan> presumably cognate to Pfennig
23:49:22 <Melvar> oerjan: That looks completely hilarious to me for some reason.
23:49:59 <Melvar> Like it would mean something like “banger” or “popper”.
23:50:25 <oerjan> well, -er is the most common plural suffix for nouns in norwegian
23:50:42 <FreeFull> oerjan: Border is granica in Polish, and money is pieniądze
23:50:46 <oerjan> it _also_ has the same meaning as in german, sometimes
23:52:06 <oerjan> "Borrowed by the Teutonic Order in the 13th century from a Slavic language (compare Common Slavic *granica (“boundary, border”)), then borrowed again into western German from Polish in the 15th century. Luther helped to popularize the word, which he spelled grentze; another old spelling was Gränze."
23:52:23 <Melvar> oerjan: Do you have something cognate to “Mark”?
23:52:33 <oerjan> Melvar: in what meaning?
23:53:33 <Melvar> Well, mark, border, demarcated land, something along those lines?
23:54:14 <oerjan> some of our county names: Finnmark, Hedmark
23:55:07 <Melvar> Yes, that’s about what I was looking for.
23:55:42 <boily> oerjan: hellœrjan. that would be cognate to fr:marche hth
23:55:57 <oerjan> Nordmarka, oslo's recreational area, Bymarka, trondheim's
23:56:08 <Melvar> There’s also English “march” in the sense of borderlands.
23:58:33 <oerjan> hm it seems to be both romance and germanic
23:59:22 <oerjan> possibly the germanic is original