←2015-05-12 2015-05-13 2015-05-14→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:00:23 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
00:01:21 <FireFly> er, of such a channel* rather
00:01:48 <Decim> Scandalous
00:03:07 <Decim> Didn't ski die though well I wouldn't know I've only seen him once
00:03:42 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
00:03:45 <oerjan> ski: are you dead in which case your bouncer is holding up amazingly well hth
00:04:41 <Decim> How do you cure your squid if he has the bends?
00:06:07 <oerjan> Decim: he'll just have to straighten out tentacle it himself
00:06:46 <fizzie> TIL: Something called "Sunset Overdrive" is using my good name. :(
00:07:55 <fizzie> "Fizzie is the corporate mascot of Fizzco, and the primary antagonist of Sunset Overdrive." "Fizzie's voice has been modified to appeal to 'young children and males in their 20's.'" This makes me unhappy.
00:11:09 -!- Decim has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:13:59 * oerjan notes that watching ORin try to guess haskell's syntax in the logs is slightly painful.
00:18:14 <shachaf> which logs twpnh
00:18:18 -!- hilquias has joined.
00:18:32 <oerjan> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2015-05-12 hth
00:41:09 <FreeFull> 🞋
00:41:31 -!- cantsolvethis has joined.
00:41:33 <FreeFull> 🞢🞣🞤🞥🞦🞧
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00:45:26 <cantsolvethis> anyone up for a small challenge
00:45:39 <cantsolvethis> Flag == YBONCECOJTHPGKUNCFTRHEAMMEOFPOEKHV
00:45:39 <cantsolvethis> Here's a hint:
00:45:40 <cantsolvethis> CHWLMMYKMETMMEATVTTO == BOYILOVEMESOMECRYPTO
00:45:59 <cantsolvethis> see if you can solve for the flag
00:48:03 * oerjan is reminded of someone from years ago
00:51:57 <ORin> > "hello" + "world"
00:51:58 <lambdabot> No instance for (Num [Char]) arising from a use of ‘+’
00:51:58 <lambdabot> In the expression: "hello" + "world"
00:52:02 <ORin> > "hello" . "world"
00:52:03 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘b0 -> c’ with actual type ‘[Char]’
00:52:03 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘(.)’, namely ‘"hello"’
00:52:03 <lambdabot> In the expression: "hello" . "world" Couldn't match expected type ‘a ...
00:52:11 <ORin> > "hello" = "world"
00:52:12 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: parse error on input ‘=’
00:52:16 <ORin> > "hello" == "world"
00:52:17 * oerjan swats ORin -----###
00:52:17 <lambdabot> False
00:52:25 <ORin> > "hello" != "world"
00:52:26 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘!=’
00:52:26 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
00:52:26 <lambdabot> ‘!’ (imported from Data.Array), ‘M.!’ (imported from Data.Map),
00:52:33 <ORin> > "hello" ++ "world"
00:52:35 <lambdabot> "helloworld"
00:52:37 <ORin> AH
00:53:12 <ORin> > "hello" ++ [10]
00:53:13 <lambdabot> No instance for (Num Char) arising from the literal ‘10’
00:53:13 <lambdabot> In the expression: 10
00:53:13 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘(++)’, namely ‘[10]’
00:53:22 <oerjan> <ORin> need to open file in ed just to use the N,Ms/name/newname/g command <-- sed -i hth
00:53:48 <ORin> > "hello" ++ "\n"
00:53:49 <lambdabot> "hello\n"
00:54:06 <ORin> > "hello" ++ [10 :: Char]
00:54:07 <lambdabot> No instance for (Num Char) arising from the literal ‘10’
00:54:07 <lambdabot> In the expression: 10 :: Char
00:54:07 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘(++)’, namely ‘[10 :: Char]’
00:54:25 <ORin> What? but but 10 is '\n'
00:54:27 <oerjan> > '\10'
00:54:29 <lambdabot> '\n'
00:54:40 <oerjan> ORin: haskell :: is _not_ a cast.
00:54:50 <ORin> it it isn't?
00:55:02 <ORin> but it is used as one
00:55:22 <ORin> > "hello" ++ [((Char) 10)]
00:55:23 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Char’
00:55:23 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
00:55:23 <lambdabot> ‘Chr’ (imported from Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ),
00:55:25 <oerjan> nope. it just says what the type of the expression is. whether that expression _can_ be that type, is a different question.
00:55:33 <ORin> > "hello" ++ [(Chr 10)]
00:55:34 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Char’ with actual type ‘TextDetails’
00:55:34 <lambdabot> In the expression: (Chr 10)
00:55:34 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘(++)’, namely ‘[(Chr 10)]’
00:55:49 <ORin> ord '\n'
00:55:54 <oerjan> > "hello" ++ [toEnum 10]
00:55:55 <lambdabot> "hello\n"
00:56:03 <ORin> I you what
00:56:25 <oerjan> that's one of the explicit conversion functions
00:56:33 <ORin> toEnum is a weird way to spell (char)
00:56:45 <oerjan> that's because it's more general
00:56:57 <oerjan> > "hello" ++ [chr 10]
00:56:58 <lambdabot> "hello\n"
00:57:01 <ORin> :t toEnum
00:57:02 <lambdabot> Enum a => Int -> a
00:57:21 <ORin> :t ord
00:57:22 <lambdabot> Char -> Int
00:57:33 <ORin> :t chr
00:57:34 <lambdabot> Int -> Char
00:57:43 <ORin> so they copid perl
00:57:45 <oerjan> i never bother with chr or ord in my own programs because they require an import, so i just use the more general toEnum and fromEnum.
00:58:26 <ORin> > [1 .. 4]
00:58:27 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4]
00:58:41 <ORin> > [1 ... 4]
00:58:42 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Num (Over p f c0 c0 a b))
00:58:42 <lambdabot> from the context (Num (Over p f c c a b),
00:58:42 <lambdabot> Num (LensLike f s t c c),
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00:59:07 <ORin> > ['a'.. 'z']
00:59:08 <lambdabot> "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz"
00:59:27 <ORin> > ["a" .. "z"]
00:59:29 <lambdabot> No instance for (Enum [Char])
00:59:29 <lambdabot> arising from the arithmetic sequence ‘"a" .. "z"’
00:59:29 <lambdabot> In the expression: ["a" .. "z"]
00:59:59 <ORin> Hmm so not quite like perl
01:00:19 <oerjan> > ['a','b' .. 'z']
01:00:20 <lambdabot> "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz"
01:00:24 <oerjan> > ['a','c' .. 'z']
01:00:25 <lambdabot> "acegikmoqsuwy"
01:00:47 <ORin> > [1,2,4 .. 256]
01:00:49 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: parse error on input ‘..’
01:00:58 <oerjan> alas
01:01:09 <oerjan> > 1:[2,4 .. 256]
01:01:11 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,52...
01:02:02 <ORin> > [2 ** x : x in [1 .. 8]]
01:02:03 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: parse error on input ‘in’
01:02:10 <ORin> hmm
01:02:20 <oerjan> > [2 ^ x | x <- [1 .. 8]]
01:02:22 <lambdabot> [2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256]
01:02:51 <ORin> cool
01:03:15 <ORin> so that's why | isn't or
01:03:31 <oerjan> indeed, | is a "keyword"
01:04:09 <ORin> 4 ** x | x <- 2
01:04:17 <ORin> > 4 ** x | x <- 2
01:04:18 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: parse error on input ‘|’
01:04:25 <ORin> > [4 ** x | x <- 2]
01:04:27 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show t0)
01:04:27 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M783320247286381027832586’
01:04:27 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
01:04:28 <oerjan> and with | taken, & never was used commonly for anything until lens started making it reverse application
01:05:24 <ORin> > first [2..4]
01:05:25 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[]’ with ‘a b’
01:05:25 <lambdabot> Expected type: a b c
01:05:25 <lambdabot> Actual type: [c]
01:05:33 <ORin> > first [2 .. 4]
01:05:33 <oerjan> > head [2..4]
01:05:35 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[]’ with ‘a b’
01:05:35 <lambdabot> Expected type: a b c
01:05:35 <lambdabot> Actual type: [c]
01:05:35 <lambdabot> <no location info>: can't find file: L.hs
01:05:39 <oerjan> oops
01:05:40 <oerjan> > head [2..4]
01:05:42 <lambdabot> 2
01:06:01 <ORin> > cdr [2 .. 4]
01:06:02 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘cdr’
01:06:03 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘chr’ (imported from Data.Char)
01:06:04 <oerjan> first is something else from Control.Arrow
01:06:10 <oerjan> > tail [2..4]
01:06:12 <lambdabot> [3,4]
01:06:46 <ORin> well at least those names make more sense than car and cdr
01:07:04 <ORin> what were they thinking
01:07:28 <oerjan> i think those were from assembly language
01:07:39 <oerjan> content of address register
01:08:04 <ORin> > Int -> Float
01:08:05 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input ‘->’
01:08:11 <ORin> > x : Int -> Float
01:08:12 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: parse error on input ‘->’
01:08:17 <oerjan> note that head and tail are deprecated for serious use, pattern matching is safer
01:08:34 <oerjan> > head [] -- errors out
01:08:35 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.head: empty list
01:09:11 <oerjan> > case [] of x:_ -> "head is " ++ show x; _ -> "no head"
01:09:12 <lambdabot> "no head"
01:10:08 <oerjan> @hoogle Int -> Float
01:10:09 <lambdabot> Data.Set elemAt :: Int -> Set a -> a
01:10:09 <lambdabot> Prelude (!!) :: [a] -> Int -> a
01:10:09 <lambdabot> Data.List (!!) :: [a] -> Int -> a
01:10:17 <oerjan> ...that was not helpful.
01:10:23 <oerjan> :t fromIntegral
01:10:25 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Num b) => a -> b
01:11:11 <oerjan> another conversion function that newbies bitch about needing
01:11:37 <oerjan> > fromIntegral (1 :: Int) :: Float
01:11:38 <lambdabot> 1.0
01:12:00 <ORin> I need it so that the output has a useless .0 in it
01:12:52 <oerjan> > 1 :: Float
01:12:54 <lambdabot> 1.0
01:13:39 <oerjan> > round pi
01:13:40 <lambdabot> 3
01:13:58 <ORin> > floor 4.9
01:14:00 <lambdabot> 4
01:14:06 <ORin> > round 4.9
01:14:07 <lambdabot> 5
01:14:09 <ORin> > round 4.5
01:14:11 <lambdabot> 4
01:14:13 <ORin> fail
01:14:22 <ORin> > round 3.5
01:14:23 <lambdabot> 4
01:14:27 <oerjan> i think it uses the banker's rounding rule
01:14:31 <ORin> total fail
01:14:41 <oerjan> ORin: that's recommended behavior for rounding
01:14:52 <oerjan> it makes rounding errors even out more often
01:15:15 <ORin> bah. 0,1,2,3,4 -> down. 5,6,7,8,9 -> up
01:15:38 <oerjan> that's the rule for money in norway too
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01:15:57 <oerjan> but using floating point for money isn't recommended
01:16:20 <ORin> that's that BCD is for
01:16:39 <ORin> well, primarily anyway IIRC
01:17:06 <oerjan> > 3.12345 :: Milli
01:17:08 <lambdabot> 3.123
01:17:56 <ORin> > 3.12345 :: Centi
01:17:57 <lambdabot> 3.12
01:17:59 <oerjan> from a fixed point package
01:18:02 <ORin> > 3.12345 :: Deci
01:18:04 <lambdabot> 3.1
01:18:10 <ORin> > 3.12345 :: Myria
01:18:11 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Myria’
01:18:25 <oerjan> myria isn't a metric prefix anyway
01:18:29 <ORin> > 3.123456789 :: Micro
01:18:30 <lambdabot> 3.123456
01:18:58 <ORin> > 3.123456789123 :: Nano
01:19:00 <lambdabot> 3.123456789
01:19:02 <ORin> cool
01:19:40 <oerjan> there's probably some notation for giving arbitrary precision but i've forgotten it
01:20:39 <ORin> > printf "%f Hello %d world" 4.5 567
01:20:41 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show a0)
01:20:41 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M3328553923042570177738’
01:20:41 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
01:21:05 <ORin> That error message is very unyhelpful
01:21:18 <ORin> > printf "Hello world"
01:21:19 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show a0)
01:21:19 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M7421556609422406871750’
01:21:19 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
01:21:21 <oerjan> printf needs a lot of type annotation when used like that
01:21:23 <oerjan> oh
01:21:36 <oerjan> > printf "%f Hello %d world" 4.5 567 :: String
01:21:37 <lambdabot> "4.5 Hello 567 world"
01:21:58 <ORin> > sprintf "%f Hello %d world" 4.5 567
01:22:00 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘sprintf’
01:22:00 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
01:22:00 <lambdabot> ‘printf’ (imported from Text.Printf),
01:22:02 <ORin> fail
01:22:17 <oerjan> printf is overloaded so it can be used both ways
01:22:28 <ORin> how is :: not a cast again then
01:22:55 <oerjan> because it chooses a type, but it doesn't convert one type to another
01:22:59 <ORin> how oh
01:24:16 <oerjan> > printf "%f Hello %d world" 4.5 567 :: IO () -- this would work imperatively if lambdabot allowed running IO actions
01:24:17 <lambdabot> <IO ()>
01:25:43 <ORin> sscanf "345" "%d"
01:25:49 <ORin> > sscanf "345" "%d"
01:25:51 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘sscanf’
01:25:51 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
01:25:51 <lambdabot> ‘scanl’ (imported from Data.List),
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01:26:01 <ORin> > scanl "345" "%d"
01:26:02 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[Char] -> a -> [Char]’
01:26:02 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[Char]’
01:26:02 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘scanl’, namely ‘"345"’
01:26:11 <oerjan> i haven't seen scanf anywhere commonly used
01:26:28 <oerjan> scanl is something completely different
01:26:34 <ORin> > atoi "345"
01:26:36 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘atoi’
01:26:41 <oerjan> > read "345" :: Integer
01:26:42 <lambdabot> 345
01:26:55 <ORin> > strtol "345"
01:26:57 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘strtol’
01:27:18 <oerjan> > read "345" :: Double
01:27:20 <lambdabot> 345.0
01:27:27 <ORin> > read "345" :: String
01:27:28 <lambdabot> "*Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
01:27:35 <ORin> > read "345" :: [Char]
01:27:37 <lambdabot> "*Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
01:27:45 <ORin> fail
01:28:26 <oerjan> > read "\"345\"" :: String
01:28:27 <lambdabot> "345"
01:28:44 <oerjan> it does the opposite of show, so you need the quotes
01:28:57 <ORin> > read "345.0 78 \"jakarta\"" :: [Int, Double, String]
01:28:58 <lambdabot> Expected a type, but ‘'[Int, Double, String]’ has kind ‘[*]’
01:28:58 <lambdabot> In an expression type signature: '[Int, Double, String]
01:28:58 <lambdabot> In the expression:
01:29:37 <ORin> oh, lists are homogenous?
01:29:43 <oerjan> yes
01:29:57 <oerjan> but that read won't work either
01:30:28 <oerjan> > read "(345.0, 78, \"jakarta\")" :: (Int, Double, String)
01:30:30 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
01:30:32 <oerjan> oops
01:30:37 <oerjan> oh
01:30:46 <oerjan> > read "(345.0, 78, \"jakarta\")" :: (Double, Int, String)
01:30:48 <lambdabot> (345.0,78,"jakarta")
01:31:41 <oerjan> haskell distinguishes between homogeneous lists and nonhomogeneous tuples
01:33:04 <oerjan> tuples with many elements are a bit of an antipattern, and not that well supported.
01:34:28 <ORin> [45,75.0,'f',"foo"]
01:34:34 <ORin> > [45,75.0,'f',"foo"]
01:34:36 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Char’ with actual type ‘[Char]’
01:34:36 <lambdabot> In the expression: "foo"
01:34:36 <lambdabot> In the expression: [45, 75.0, 'f', "foo"]
01:35:06 <ORin> > ['f',"foo"] :: [Either Char String]
01:35:08 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Either Char String’
01:35:08 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Char’
01:35:08 <lambdabot> In the expression: 'f'
01:35:53 <oerjan> Either doesn't do any silent conversion either
01:36:06 <oerjan> > [Left 'f', Right "foo"] :: [Either Char String]
01:36:08 <lambdabot> [Left 'f',Right "foo"]
01:37:17 <ORin> Blah
01:37:39 <oerjan> many newbies pass through a stage where they want heterogeneous lists
01:38:40 <ORin> they're kind of an idiom in a lot of languages
01:38:59 <oerjan> thing is, it's usually due to an X/Y problem: unless you're doing hideously advanced stuff there's a simpler haskell way without them.
01:39:21 <oerjan> or at least a more typesafe one
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03:45:54 <tswett> You know what I want to create?
03:46:00 <tswett> The Online Encyclopedia of Real Numbers.
03:46:19 <tswett> Of course, there are uncountably many real numbers. But that hasn't stopped OEIS.
03:48:43 <oerjan> there is already the inverse symbolic calculator
03:49:02 <oerjan> it might have some gaps hth
03:49:22 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure it'll have to be the Online Encyclopedia of Computable Numbers.
03:49:43 <pikhq> It's kinda hard to index the non-computables.
03:51:08 <oerjan> MAYBE
03:51:50 <tswett> Well, the OEIS doesn't claim to contain only computable sequences.
03:52:46 <ORin> thare are non-computable integers too
03:53:06 <ORin> (for one meaning of "are")
03:53:32 <tswett> There are non-computable integer expressions. There are not non-computable integers.
03:53:41 <tswett> Any integer small enough to fit inside a computer program is computable.
03:53:54 <ORin> exactly
03:53:55 <pikhq> Any integer is computable.
03:54:12 <pikhq> By the reasonably definition of 'computable', 'integers', and 'are'.
03:54:34 <ORin> and computer memory is a finite resource
03:54:37 <oerjan> ah but you cleverly forgot to define "any" hth
03:54:54 <Jafet> Well, there are the non-standard integers
03:55:25 <ORin> you mean like ...111110?
03:55:38 <pikhq> ORin: Not in the definition of "computable".
03:56:23 <ORin> YOUR definition of computable which presumably isn't satisfied by any um, computer
03:56:26 <tswett> When pikhq says "any", they're saying that there exists an integer which is computable.
03:57:34 <pikhq> ORin: The definition of computable is not satisfied by any computer, yes.
03:57:44 <tswett> I think that's it's theoretically possible to explicitly define a non-standard integer.
03:57:45 <FireFly> If you can define an uncomputable number, you could presumably still meaningfully index it
03:57:57 <tswett> I will now pretty much do so.
03:58:01 <pikhq> I will say something stronger, though. For all integers x, x is computable.
03:58:28 <pikhq> That is to say, there exists an algorithm which will compute x.
03:58:34 <elliott> it's only computable if you can do it with an original ibm pc. this is how theory works
03:59:05 <Jafet> If you use a mainframe does that make it supercomputable?
03:59:10 <elliott> yes
03:59:44 <tswett> Let P be a predicate on the natural numbers, defined in the language of second-order arithmetic, such that P is not satisfied by any natural number, but ZFC does not prove that P is not satisfied by any natural number.
04:00:11 <tswett> Perform the Henkin construction on the theory ZFC + "there exists a natural number satisfying P". (This can be done in an explicitly definable manner.)
04:00:27 <ORin> computable should have different definitions when dealing with abstract algorithms, than when dealing with the tuple of (algorithm, arguments)
04:00:59 <tswett> Then the witness of the statement "there exists a natural number satisfying P" is a non-standard integer.
04:01:01 <elliott> can you please refrain from offering strong opinions on something you clearly don't even know the definition of...
04:01:10 <elliott> "perform the henkin construction" sounds like /such/ mathbabble
04:01:17 <elliott> fakest real thing I've ever heard
04:01:37 <ORin> when you have also the arguments, it is then possible to prove that no computer can be built which can carry it to completion
04:01:51 <elliott> please. this is painful.
04:02:00 <Jafet> Set the henkin drive to negative ten parsecs
04:02:07 <elliott> i don't know why you think any of this is relevant to theoretical CS
04:02:54 <elliott> i mean unless you're going to go all finitist and say that huge integers don't exist in the first place because the universe can't fit the paper to write down their digits on
04:03:08 <ORin> It is relevant to thw practical problem of creating a database of computable numbers?
04:03:13 <elliott> which is more defensible than introducing weird arbitrary limits just because the word "computer" pops up
04:03:49 * elliott sighs
04:03:53 <elliott> no, it isn't really
04:04:14 <Jafet> It's easy to make a database of computable numbers, just throw away all the digits and answer "yes, it's computable"
04:04:16 <elliott> such a database could easily contain an integer that can trivially be computed but not in this universe
04:04:21 <elliott> you just include the definition
04:04:24 <Jafet> "It's also NUMBERWANG"
04:04:36 <elliott> (but a database of "computable numbers" is rather unlikely to include any integers)
04:04:42 <elliott> (or rationals, for that matter)
04:04:47 <elliott> (except as trivial examples)
04:05:34 <ORin> I don't think that every integer can have a definition which can be stored.
04:05:53 <tswett> True, if you mean "stored in the universe".
04:05:58 <ORin> Yes
04:06:01 <tswett> Mathematicians don't tend to care about the physical limits of the universe.
04:06:13 <tswett> The word "computable" is defined in a way which disregards the physical limits of the universe.
04:06:20 <ORin> I don't know of any other universe I can store things in
04:06:38 <tswett> /topic Disregard the physical limits of the universe
04:07:45 <elliott> btw how do you define "computable in this universe" 'cuz you're never gonna query every digit of a computable real
04:08:00 <elliott> "any digit can be computed in reasonable time on a reasonable computer"? "the early digits can be"?
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04:08:13 <tswett> Remind me one of these days to study "the ultrafinitistic category".
04:08:13 <elliott> ...don't actually answer that...
04:08:57 <tswett> That is, the category whose objects are sets of finite sequences of symbols from the alphabet {A, B}, and whose morphisms are functions whose output length is bounded by a polynomial function of the input length.
04:09:11 <ORin> Most reals aren't computable by a practical defintion. That's why we use floating point
04:09:38 <elliott> the pain levels are approaching physical here, ORin
04:09:44 <elliott> can you please like... google "computable number" or something
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04:10:50 <ORin> Well I'm explicitly saying "parctical definition"... form now on when I say computable I will mean on a turing machine with unbounded time and space, kay
04:11:54 <pikhq> It is important to remember that we don't care about practicality. Even less so than most theoreticians.
04:12:00 <elliott> ok but why do you think this "practical definition" is relevant to the topic that was being discussed at all
04:12:10 <pikhq> Brainfuck is too mainstream.
04:12:24 <elliott> it's so far off from the goal of making a database of interesting real numbers that it's hard to even parse it in that context
04:12:32 <ORin> Because of the idea of making a database similar to OEIS
04:12:52 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure OEIS includes some sequences that aren't practical to compute all of.
04:13:27 <elliott> it's not like uncountability matters for making a finite subset of anyway........
04:13:32 <ORin> But I'm talking about mathematicalobjects where it isn't even practical to define them
04:13:47 <elliott> ok, hint: possibly-infinite sequences of integers are isomorphic to the real numbers
04:13:52 <elliott> they are the same size
04:14:04 <elliott> OEIS-for-reals has to care about floating point or whatever exactly as much as OEIS does
04:14:05 <tswett> http://oeis.org/search?q=busy+beaver
04:14:16 <elliott> right
04:14:25 <elliott> the analogy for the OEIS busy beaver entry would be chaitin's omega, I suppose
04:14:30 <elliott> with the known digits for some formalism included
04:14:42 <elliott> and that's not computable even if you have as many universes as you want...
04:14:50 <elliott> (ok, as long as church-turing holds in all of them)
04:15:46 <FireFly> The 'hard' tag on OEIS is specifically for sequences where it is hard to find new entries, so..
04:15:58 <ORin> Right, So. Chaitin's omega can't be computed. ORin hypothesized number, there is no algorithm which can ever be written.
04:16:06 <ORin> let alone run
04:16:21 <elliott> no
04:16:25 <elliott> chaitin's omega doesn't have a computable algorithm either
04:16:31 <elliott> that's kind of the point. it's not computable by a turing machine
04:17:05 <pikhq> It is the canonical example of a non-computable number.
04:17:08 <elliott> Each halting probability is a normal and transcendental real number that is not computable, which means that there is no algorithm to compute its digits. Indeed, each halting probability is Martin-Löf random, meaning there is not even any algorithm which can reliably guess its digits.
04:17:58 <ORin> er, sorry I messed up there.
04:18:27 <ORin> "there is no defintion which can be written" is what I wsas getting at before
04:18:49 <elliott> ok, yes, undefinable real numbers are a thing
04:19:00 <elliott> (and far scarier to think about than uncomputable imo)
04:19:12 <elliott> yeah, such an encyclopedia would never be able to include undefinable numbers
04:19:16 <elliott> but computability isn't an obstacle
04:19:31 <elliott> also, what counts as "undefinable" depends on what you're writing the definitions in, of course
04:20:03 <elliott> thankfully, since the answer to any question we ask can never be an undefinable number (because our question defines it), they're completely uninteresting
04:20:15 <elliott> basically all just completely random juk as far as we're concerned
04:20:18 <elliott> *junk
04:20:39 <elliott> they are the real numbers most likely to keep you awake at night thinking about them though
04:25:00 <ORin> Ok, how about this then. The "unthinkable numbers" are those where a defintion cannot be written, or possibly, cannot be fully understood. This includes undefinable numbers, but also includes many definable ones, because the shortest definitions of such, are too long for a human's lifetime.
04:25:26 <tswett> Sounds good.
04:25:39 <elliott> what was your point again >_>
04:26:15 <ORin> Eh that last one was rather pointless actually. But fun to think about
04:26:29 <tswett> Reminds me of the "intuitive definition" of a non-standard number given here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_set_theory
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04:27:13 <tswett> A standard number is one that someone, somewhere, has specifically thought of or will specifically think of.
04:27:21 <tswett> All the other numbers are non-standard.
04:27:43 <elliott> sweet, every time some nerd tries to tell me about a non-standard number I can just think about it and instantly prove them wrong
04:27:48 <elliott> the power........
04:28:14 <ORin> Wait how would they tell you about it?
04:28:43 <elliott> by talking about a model that has a non-standard number in it
04:29:11 <elliott> models are scary
04:29:22 <tswett> Of course, that non-standard number I just defined (up to detail) isn't actually a number at all.
04:29:48 <elliott> everyone thinks things are the same as their definitions and then you find out about models and just cry forever :(
04:30:37 * tswett performs "Mad World".
04:30:47 <ORin> uh. I'm pretty sure they aren't, primarily because you can define things differently
04:31:29 <ORin> pi is the area of unit circle. Or is it the ratio of diameter and perimeter?
04:31:41 <elliott> I mean, people see the Peano defintion of the naturals and assume that there are no naturals that aren't of the form SSS...Z, and you can even prove it.
04:31:54 <elliott> but there are realisations of the Peano axioms where that isn't true.
04:31:55 <ORin> Oh
04:32:06 <ORin> Yeah
04:32:07 <tswett> I think it's kinda funny, I think it's kinda sad. The dreams in which it turns out that mathematical contradictions are, in fact, true, and so not only does nothing exist, but nothing ever could have existed, not even hypothetically, are the best I've ever had.
04:32:09 <elliott> I think the existence of non-standard models is very surprising to most people.
04:32:29 <tswett> ORin: pi is both of those things, as it happens.
04:32:41 <elliott> I think the prior tendency is to assume that any consistent theory has one standard model, and to identify that model with the theory.
04:32:52 <elliott> pretty sure that's how I thought of things before
04:33:08 <tswett> The way I see it is that first-order Peano arithmetic is merely an attempt at approximating second-order Peano arithmetic.
04:33:15 <elliott> I feel like eve mathematicians act like this is true a lot of the time by saying things that only make sense if you identify a theory with its standard model
04:33:23 <elliott> in the way they phrase proofs and stuff
04:33:25 <tswett> It's a good attempt, but not perfect.
04:33:34 <elliott> *even
04:34:02 <tswett> Here, let me spout an unsolicited opinion.
04:34:26 <ORin> im listening!
04:34:48 <tswett> I don't consider "a set of real numbers" to be a meaningful notion in (mathematical) reality.
04:35:22 <tswett> Anyway, I should go to bed a couple hours ago.
04:35:24 <tswett> Night, everyone.
04:39:13 <ORin> great now i will spend an hour trying to figure out
04:53:36 <ORin> agh. there is no undefinable number which is closest to x, for any definable x
04:55:20 <ORin> but neither can
04:57:16 <ORin> there be a undefinable number which is furthest away
05:05:36 <ORin> any definition of a number, whether meta on the set of definable numbers or not, puts that number into said set.
05:09:24 <ORin> meaning that you really can't touch them
05:11:38 <elliott> hint: if you talk about "the undefinable number which is ...", you've already lost.
05:11:57 <elliott> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_paradox
05:11:59 <ORin> A model of the real numbers where the undefinable numbers are missing, rearranged or otherwise messed, is indistinguishable from the standard one
05:12:19 <elliott> uhhhh, not so sure about that...
05:12:27 <elliott> note that the definable numbers are countable
05:12:38 <elliott> the reals are most certainly not countable, so you're doing heavy surgery there
05:13:21 <ORin> But how would one devise a test?
05:13:48 <elliott> what is even your proposal for that model?
05:13:57 <elliott> can you define one and prove it satisfies the axioms?
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05:15:43 <ORin> they can't be rearranged
05:16:23 <elliott> I mean... a formal definition. :)
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05:19:27 <elliott> remember that you cannot define undefinable numbers from within the theory.
05:19:46 <ORin> OH SHIT
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05:20:04 <elliott> if you could define the set of undefinable numbers, you could define an undefinable number by, e.g. just picking one arbitrarily. (axiom of choice!!11)
05:20:25 <elliott> you can do it "a level up", though
05:21:38 <shachaf> How can you pick one arbitrarily?
05:21:40 <ORin> So I can't define the set of definable numbers either
05:22:55 <ORin> shachaf: Not sure about that one
05:23:09 <elliott> axiom of choice?
05:24:03 <ORin> Right, it's an axiom that I can do it, but I don't know how to do it.
05:24:13 <elliott> we
05:24:22 <elliott> 're talking about undefinable reals, nobody gets to call constructivism
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05:26:13 <shachaf> I'm not sure I follow. Maybe I don't understand what an undefinable number is.
05:26:15 <ORin> I guess I can say "I summon x from the set S, let it be chosen"
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05:26:36 <shachaf> Is the set of definable numbers also undefinable in this context?
05:26:55 <ORin> Uh. I'm not sure actually
05:26:58 <elliott> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definable_real_number
05:27:27 <elliott> okay, https://mathoverflow.net/questions/44102/is-the-analysis-as-taught-in-universities-in-fact-the-analysis-of-definable-numb/44129#44129 might be better.
05:27:41 <ORin> Presumably we can apply the predicate definable to other math objects too
05:28:30 <elliott> (sigh, models)
05:29:08 <ORin> we need a model for it
05:29:11 <elliott> anyway, no, you can't define (un)definable numbers in the theory you're talking about.
05:29:22 <elliott> it is a meta-level concept
05:29:30 <elliott> just like consistency or whatever
05:30:08 <elliott> ORin: sure, uncountable things
05:30:15 <elliott> in the end it's just the fact that the set of descriptions is countable
05:31:20 <ORin> so the set of definable obj does not include itself?
05:36:30 <shachaf> OK, I see.
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05:56:55 <b_jonas> fools!
05:57:51 <b_jonas> this book, published in the 1990s, doesn't have a publication date printed in it. I don't understand why. would it cost too much for them to add one? would it go against their sacred traditions? are they affraid people won't buy the book if it's more than two years old?
05:58:13 <b_jonas> it has an isbn, and library catalogs list the date of the book variously as "1996", "1996?", and "2003"
05:58:18 <shachaf> b_jonas: The real question is why papers never have a date written on them.
05:58:57 <b_jonas> shachaf: that's because you usually see preprint drafts. the published papers usually have a date.
05:59:10 <shachaf> That might be an explanation.
05:59:15 <b_jonas> luckily for papers it's usually easy to find out the date, because they're indexed well
05:59:46 <b_jonas> I can sort of understand no date for 18th century books, when they didn't add _any_ info about the publisher,
05:59:55 <b_jonas> or tell who the translator or illustrator is.
06:00:28 <b_jonas> s/18th/19th/
06:01:08 <b_jonas> but this book, it's a 20the century book, it has a colophon page telling the publisher, the translator, the cover illustrator, and on the back it has a list of other books published in the same series
06:01:22 <b_jonas> it even has an isbn
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06:05:16 <shachaf> What is the book?
06:16:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: ''Kalevala'', Talentum Diákkönyvtár Sorozat, (1996?) Akkord kiadó, ISBN 9638396652, abridged edition, translator Rácz István, preface by Outi Karanko.
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10:16:51 <fizzie> b_jonas: Why are you reading The Kalevala?
10:19:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: dunno, why not? I might not read that translation though. I'll have to find copies of perhaps all four modern translations and figure out which one I prefer and read only that.
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10:32:06 <fizzie> b_jonas: You should just read the Don Rosa version, it's a lot shorter.
10:32:22 <fizzie> fungot: Are you for or against this net neutrality thing?
10:32:22 <fungot> fizzie: the first part remaining intact. the council leapt into the breach, adopting its common position, nor by the house i met a group called the bilderberg group. this group of people wishing to take a number of countries have concluded between 25 and 28.
10:32:46 <fizzie> fungot: Are you quite sure you're not turning into a conspiracy theorist?
10:32:46 <fungot> fizzie: the willockx report is the role of echo in the other language versions too. ( parliament gave its approval for these potentially disastrous plans to go forward. this topic has been given: parliament is well aware, ladies and gentlemen, i will reply successively to the different legal systems, in which the european union
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11:35:02 <b_jonas> `? bivector
11:35:03 <HackEgo> bivector? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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11:43:30 <mroman> A trade-off for these advantages of the modern human pelvis is that childbirth is more difficult and dangerous than in most mammals, especially given the larger head size of human babies compared to other primates.
11:43:35 <mroman> That's interesting.
11:43:57 <mroman> ^style
11:43:57 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
11:54:11 <Melvar> mroman: I know a guy who has complained loudly (but not seriously) about some primordial fish deciding to put its whatever-hole behind its rear fins instead of in front for this reason.
11:55:29 <mroman> I just find it very unusual for evolution to evolve in a way that makes producing offspring more dangerous
11:55:57 <mroman> because it doesn't really sound like an advantage that would make these kind of mutations survive better.
11:56:02 <Melvar> Tradeoffs and changing costs.
11:58:35 <Melvar> Particularly, if the thing is helps the offspring you do produce to survive, this may outweigh being restricted to fewer. May.
12:02:33 <mroman> or it is an evolutionary mismatch
12:02:52 <mroman> since evolution isn't really goal and/or future oriented these things can happen
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12:03:50 <b_jonas> fungot, what's a bivector?
12:03:50 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, mrs fnord. fifth aspect: while taking account of our will to resolve their problem. it preserves the four pillar structure and the implementation of the action plan for the return of the golan heights are illegal, are marginalised, living in a different light, it is a good example in the care sector also risen in other member states.
12:04:12 <b_jonas> fungot: is it some crazy physicist thing, or some crazy type theory computer science thing?
12:04:13 <fungot> b_jonas: it is with the presidency. let me make it clear before the end of business on the other hand, we do not even comply with the guidelines which we discussed this week, as the house, has voted today without the services of such an important debate on competition this morning, on behalf of the socialist group has finally decided to allocate ecu 200m to this task, and also in order to break the taboos. we have talked about,
12:04:15 <mroman> a vector that points into two directions?
12:05:21 <b_jonas> nah, apparently it's just an antisymmetric 2-0-tensor or something
12:05:35 <b_jonas> so yes, one that points into two directions
12:05:46 <b_jonas> but not quite that
12:07:30 <b_jonas> so physicist nonsense, not type theory one
12:08:17 <b_jonas> but maybe haskell people have a different object called the same, one that's real simple, because it's just a bimorphism in the bicategory of Idunno what
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12:48:11 <int-e> Ah, assumptions, the Foglios surprised me once again...
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13:49:24 <mroman> what the hell is wrong with ‎Esowiki201529A
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13:51:36 <mroman> I hate him now.
13:52:40 <mroman> He didn't even bother to change the text o_O
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14:57:05 <ORin> I don't think I like the modern human pelvis
14:57:20 <ORin> the bones look alll wonky
14:57:25 <nvd> It has its downsides, certainly
15:00:57 <ORin> Also, I bet another design wouldn't requre me to probably need a new hip when I'm 60
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15:58:06 <impomatic_> Anyone interested in CROBOTS? There's a 30th anniversary tournament in November http://crobots.deepthought.it/home.php?page=tournament2015&link=2
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16:06:42 <nvd> impomatic_, ooh, that looks interesting
16:09:48 <impomatic_> I've been meaning to give it a go for years.
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17:01:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42857&oldid=42855 * 168.99.197.17 * (+84) implemented h(alt) and n(ewline) commands
17:02:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42858&oldid=42857 * 168.99.197.17 * (-16) /* A Java Interpreter */ Removed excess braces, following convention created by implementation for the command e.
17:04:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42859&oldid=42858 * 168.99.197.17 * (+13) sp
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18:37:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42860&oldid=42859 * 72.74.32.143 * (-104) /* Commands */
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20:12:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42861&oldid=42765 * SuperJedi224 * (+18) /* M */
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21:09:58 <ORin> Hey yorick is your name copied from hamlet that guy who died?
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21:11:11 <shachaf> "that guy who died" isn't very descriptive hth
21:11:35 <ais523> don't most of the characters in hamlet end up dying?
21:11:45 <olsner> isn't yorick the skull?
21:11:49 <ORin> That's literally all I know about the yorick from hamlet
21:12:39 <ORin> everyone dies in romeo and juliet too.
21:12:56 <ais523> ISTR some famous musician bequeathed his skull to the Royal Shakespeare Company, with a request that it be used to play the part of Yorick
21:13:07 <ais523> and apparently they actually did so at least once (not sure if they do it every time)
21:13:21 <ais523> err, perhaps composer rather than musician
21:14:29 <shachaf> I would think that a composer would count as a musician.
21:15:09 <olsner> I've also heard of the guy who donated his skull
21:15:12 <ais523> perhaps, the word's more commonly used for people who read music than write it, though
21:15:29 <olsner> `quote canposer
21:15:29 <ais523> (and play it, but "read" is still technically correct and makes the sentence look nicer)
21:15:30 <HackEgo> 379) <oklofok> drinks should come in long long pipes that drip liquid at varying speeds, and you shouldn't just casually taste to them, you should really try to understand what the artist (the canposer?) was trying to convey when making the drink <oklofok> olsner: well you know i'm a genius. anyway i like how food works tho, because it has both th
21:17:05 <shachaf> What good is a quote so long it won't fit in a line of IRC?
21:18:06 <ais523> we need to connect HackEgo to a server with a shorter name
21:18:19 <ais523> although "verne.freenode.net" is probably one of the shortest
21:18:22 <ais523> actually, no
21:18:31 <ais523> it's which server that you're connected to that matters
21:18:36 <ais523> not which server it's connected to
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21:35:01 <ORin> so maybe something like a@43nt30.tk would be better?
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22:11:07 * boily pökes oerjan in the diæresis
22:15:11 <oerjan> my name has no diæresis hthoily
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22:53:56 <FireFly> How about a słash, then
22:54:48 <Phantom_Hoover> sometimes i think the argot on this channel has gone too far
22:54:57 <Phantom_Hoover> but then i thirth about it
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22:56:38 <FireFly> fungot: what do you think about the matter?
22:56:38 <fungot> FireFly: mr president, the treaty of amsterdam, that whatever the majority that is required is reciprocity between the pillars. i share that view.
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23:02:20 <oerjan> słashes are fine, especially when słashbuckling
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23:17:43 <oerjan> edwardk: so does https://git.haskell.org/ghc.git/commitdiff/130e93aab220bdf14d08028771f83df210da340b mean you can finally get instances for (,) :: Constraint -> Constraint -> Constraint ?
23:18:05 <oerjan> presumably you need to import it from GHC.Classes
23:19:40 <oerjan> hm but it's not mentioned in the export list. confusing.
23:31:38 <boily> `? thirth
23:31:39 <HackEgo> thirth? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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23:33:15 <oerjan> boily: i have no idea what Phantom_Hoover means either
23:33:30 <Phantom_Hoover> it's just the irth form
23:34:03 <Phantom_Hoover> perhaps you should questionirth me and search the logs??
23:34:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i am sorry you do _not_ get to use it with "should" hth
23:35:02 <boily> shouldirth!
23:35:14 <oerjan> shouldirth is fine
23:36:02 <Phantom_Hoover> 'should' isn't a verb hth
23:37:28 <oerjan> yes it irth
23:41:09 <Phantom_Hoover> you're a disgrace johansen
23:41:44 <oerjan> if you sayfth so
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23:49:10 <shachaf> oerjan: i tried to figure out what "irth" stood for for a while tdnh
23:50:36 <oerjan> iwnsth hth
23:52:21 <FireFly> irth is what you reply if someone tells you to rtfm hth
23:53:38 <shachaf> HireFly
23:53:54 <shachaf> run into any exciting abstractions lately?
23:54:12 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
23:54:24 <shachaf> what!
23:54:53 <oerjan> shachaf: just ran him into an exciting abstraction hth
23:55:06 <oerjan> also, it had been too long
23:55:19 <FireFly> I suppose that is true
23:56:10 <FireFly> shachaf: I'm not a person of exciting abstractions, I'm afraid :(
23:57:06 <shachaf> what sort of exciting things have you run into, then
23:57:22 <shachaf> did you ride any good trains?
23:58:21 <boily> oerjan: johansen???
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