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00:26:49 * oerjan finds out that it's been just 30 days since last he properly looked at recent changes on the wiki
00:27:14 <oerjan> and also, that it's possible to expand it by editing the url
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00:33:05 <fizzie> Hauska on tietää lisää: Miten toimii kamera.
00:33:12 <fizzie> Sorry, that's something that always pops up in my head when there's something that could be associated with "the more you know".
00:33:54 <fizzie> It's the title of the Finnish translation of http://www.amazon.com/How-Works-Camera-David-Carey/dp/0721402550
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00:48:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42977&oldid=42969 * 98.182.24.67 * (-149) /* Java */
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01:08:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42978&oldid=42679 * Oerjan * (+15) /* Numbers */ put in context
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01:12:00 <boily> shellochaf, helloren, quinthellopia, Tanelle.
01:14:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Gibberish (programming language)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42979&oldid=42711 * Oerjan * (+47) Time is of the essence
01:15:23 <oerjan> no longer adrift at sea!
01:16:00 <boily> well, if you consider the Canal Rideau to be some sort of sea...
01:20:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alphabetti spaghetti]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42980&oldid=42720 * Oerjan * (+10) intro fmt
01:22:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42981&oldid=42976 * Oerjan * (+0) /* A */ ala phabetically
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01:41:56 <oren> I definetely love thid font. i dont know why but I love thesr lowrt case numbets.
01:45:07 <oren> the rideau canal is cetaimly connected to a sea
01:45:26 <boily> fungot: why have you corrupted oren? next thing you know he'll be fnording.
01:45:26 <fungot> boily: but the rebellion fnord and now that i think i am going to say something remarkable, and truly manly, and reminds us of a company of merchants. i know, indeed i am ready to believe he is in the one mode or in the mode of conception. shakspeare is guided by the conditions under which the people thereof, shall on that day the following speech was made.
01:46:45 <oren> boily: i'm tting to learn to tpicj tyoe hth
01:49:58 <oren> seriously how do peoole do this widtho8utr making mistakers
01:50:19 <boily> practice, practice, practice.
01:50:33 <boily> (also, a few years of piano *may* have helped hth)
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01:52:19 <boily> oh well. dienfosh.
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01:55:10 <oren> mutexes atr hard to imlement. when i got mine to work it felt like dumb luikc mote than skill
01:56:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Piet++]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42982&oldid=42754 * Oerjan * (-1) typo
01:57:09 <oren> dont look ar keyboard dont lookea keyboard dont look at keytboard
01:57:49 <oerjan> hm my touch tyåing is a bit out of form
01:59:01 <oerjan> or wait maybe it's just that i was trying too hard
02:01:26 <oren> hmm ttying too hard?
02:04:30 <oerjan> as in, i type faster when i'm not concentrating too hard on typing :P
02:04:59 <oerjan> still not exactly world class speed
02:08:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42983&oldid=42741 * Oerjan * (+44) /* Befunge programs? */ unsigned
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02:19:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42984&oldid=42762 * Oerjan * (+1) Intro, resectioning, quine code
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02:26:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[There Once was a Fish Named Fred]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42985&oldid=42763 * Oerjan * (+1) /* Hello world */ wikify
02:29:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ASCII art]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42986&oldid=42768 * Oerjan * (+48) unsigned
02:30:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Lazy evaluation]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42987&oldid=42769 * Oerjan * (+48) unsigned
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02:40:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42988&oldid=42977 * Oerjan * (+149) Undo revision 42977 by [[Special:Contributions/98.182.24.67|98.182.24.67]] ([[User talk:98.182.24.67|talk]])
02:45:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HeartForth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42989&oldid=42790 * Oerjan * (+14) /* Links */ wikify
02:46:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HeartForth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42990&oldid=42989 * Oerjan * (+6) introfy
02:48:44 <tswett> T am iound to t.p eo tkle tn Dqngar qithouh actuarrf ynorinb tt,
02:48:55 <tswett> Which results in incomprehensible nonsense.
02:49:18 <tswett> "I am going to try to type in Dvorak without actually knowing it."
02:49:36 <tswett> From now on, I'm referring to Dvorak as "D'q'ngar".
02:52:00 <oerjan> are you implying that dvorak users are secretly klingons
02:56:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Clue (Keymaker)]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42991&oldid=42800 * Oerjan * (-1) Fixing formatting since that's what my brain is awake enough for
02:57:33 <lifthrasiir> U kuje ti sguft ibe gabd bt ibe cikynb ub tge QWERTT jetbiard,
02:57:58 <shachaf> tswett: now you gotta complete the rest of the double dactyl hth
02:58:07 <lifthrasiir> "I like to shift one hand by one column in the QWERTY keyboard."
02:58:28 <lifthrasiir> actually, "jetbiard" sounds great enough that it can be made into my naming pool
02:59:08 <oerjan> jetbiard the flying viking
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06:23:23 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
06:25:38 <HackEgo> gonads are the best punctional fondlegramming squishcture.
06:26:04 <quintopia> aw i was hoping for "Gonads are just gonoids in the category of innuendofunctors."
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07:28:52 <Jafet> @quote zygohistomorphic
07:28:52 <lambdabot> comonad says: - comonad [~functor@zygohistomorphic-prepromorphism.endofunctor.org] has joined #haskell
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08:08:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ASCII art-]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42992 * Vriskanon * (+1461) Added ASCII art-, an [[ASCII art]] derivative.
08:09:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Vriskanon]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42993&oldid=42950 * Vriskanon * (+23) Added [[ASCII art-]]
08:10:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42994&oldid=42951 * Vriskanon * (+17) /* Brainfuck derivatives */ Added [[ASCII art-]]
08:11:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ASCII art]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42995&oldid=42986 * Vriskanon * (+132)
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08:22:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basilisk]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42996&oldid=42670 * Vriskanon * (+29) Category: Joke Languages
08:23:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[420]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42997&oldid=42674 * Vriskanon * (+29) [[Category:Joke languages]]
08:23:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ASCII art-]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42998&oldid=42992 * Vriskanon * (+29) [[Category:Joke languages]]
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08:42:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fringespeak]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42999&oldid=42900 * Oerjan * (+9) wiffy
08:44:07 <fungot> mroman_: church of ireland a bad institution. this may perhaps prove that we are entering its gates, in the same at judicious intervals, should eat the entire barrel at one sitting of the late payment of the premiums into small periodical sums, and also an fnord party, and even of her personal existence, and seems to consider as a trust for charity; and who, rather than in the former set, the population is from 125 to 250, or r
08:45:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43000&oldid=42902 * Oerjan * (+4) wookiefy
08:45:17 <mroman_> You mean the f(n) > g(n) stuff?
08:45:22 <fungot> Nihilumbra: i will teach you how to steal, so that i could wish, indeed, the most powerful, the most unprecedented, the most fnord of its professors must be every night exchanged for the hideous coats and waistcoats of the present alarming state of public opinion, and if it receives countenance by the most successful, because to-night we should particularly observe, i think. yes; it's seven. but that any condensation which does
08:46:17 <oerjan> fungot: i think Nihilumbra is insulted
08:46:17 <fungot> oerjan: the most decisive proof of mr sadler's proposition is. he asserts, and our love knows no distinction. under such a constitution nominally existed in france; while, in all seasons, and in one respect the analogy is very striking. as there always are many rotten members belonging to the dramatic, musical, and equestrian sick fund association."
08:46:24 <mroman_> oerjan: What's wrong with that?
08:47:05 <mroman_> Except that there might be some n where f(n) > g(n) doesn't hold
08:47:19 <oerjan> mroman_: it didn't seem very relevant to an O() proof
08:47:47 <mroman_> f(n) > g(n) just means that f is steeper than g
08:48:50 <oerjan> no, it means that f(n) > g(n) for some or all n.
08:49:18 <oerjan> it has nothing to do with asymptotics
08:49:30 <oerjan> until you put the right quantifiers on
08:50:13 <mroman_> and Big Omegas and Big Thetas
08:52:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Malbrain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43001&oldid=42878 * Oerjan * (-1) fmt
08:52:31 <oerjan> there's probably a symbol for it, but it's not >
08:53:45 <mroman_> theres f(n) \elem \BigOmega (n) or something like that I think
08:53:50 <mroman_> it's not very ASCII friendly though
08:54:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wepmlrio]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43002&oldid=42903 * Oerjan * (+48) unsigned
08:55:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wepmlrio]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43003&oldid=43002 * Oerjan * (+1) oops
08:58:24 <mroman_> wepmlrio is the laziest knock-off ever
08:59:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[APLBAONWSJAS]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43004&oldid=42958 * Oerjan * (+7) bold, typos
08:59:31 <mroman_> isn't ASCII-Art- just brainfuck o_O?
09:02:46 <Jafet> I Demand Deletion sounds like a good language name
09:02:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Random Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43005&oldid=42968 * Oerjan * (+5) typo
09:02:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ASCII art-]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43006 * 160.85.232.168 * (+120) brainfuck?
09:03:06 <myname> it should have no garbage collector, though
09:03:26 <mroman_> I guess that happens when 14 year old try to make their own languages :)
09:04:23 <Jafet> Needs [[Category:ASCII art derivative]] imo
09:04:29 <mroman_> I mean... ASCII-Art even says that it's just brainfuck but ascii-artified
09:04:43 <mroman_> if you unasciiartify it it's plain old brainfuck
09:05:18 <Nihilumbra> It also says it goes off of what the last input was or something like that
09:07:25 <Nihilumbra> I finished the statistics thing I was doing btw
09:08:30 <Nihilumbra> I was making a statistics chart for my bot to see how it preformed when doing large tasks such as moving cores,
09:09:05 <mroman_> 434.4 of 100k people in switzerland have cancer
09:09:08 <Nihilumbra> I just have to look over it and check for minor mistakes
09:11:03 <Nihilumbra> Why did it go up to its original number
09:11:10 <mroman_> > let q f (a,b) = (f a, f b) in q (/100) (100000, 434.4)
09:11:59 <Nihilumbra> And shortened the ammount of time by like a day
09:12:02 <mroman_> yeah so 1 out of 1k probably dies of cancer
09:12:23 <mroman_> the statistics was taken over 4 years
09:12:37 <mroman_> in 4 years one of 1k will die of cancer
09:13:19 <mroman_> that's a binomial distribution right?
09:13:51 <mroman_> asuming you live 80 years long
09:13:56 <mroman_> that's 20 trials of 4 years
09:14:31 <Nihilumbra> Ill just calculmatate thiss large ass number me self
09:14:33 <mroman_> that's 0.02 if I can calculate right
09:14:51 <mroman_> you have a 2% chance of dieing due to cancer in your whole lifetime
09:15:50 <mroman_> Does that imply that one in fifty people will eventually die from cancer?
09:17:00 <oerjan> huh i'd have thought it was higher...
09:17:28 <oerjan> as in, everyone dies, and cancer is one of the major reasons
09:18:51 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: i _am_ a cancer hth
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09:19:39 <Nihilumbra> Also mroman how much is 18,828 bytes converted to a kilobyte
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10:11:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ASCII art-]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43007&oldid=43006 * Vriskanon * (+91) Yes, it it.
10:21:38 <mroman_> Idris has eager evaluation
10:26:07 <Melvar> mroman_: Yes. edwinb likes it better that way. Laziness must be explicit.
10:30:08 * Melvar ponders the usefulness of making Lazy a monad.
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10:47:07 <mroman_> I could use my school project and "clean it up"
10:47:11 <mroman_> getting rid of useless stuff
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11:11:20 <mroman_> Mainly wanting to get rid of MMU and Cache simulation
11:11:24 <mroman_> and then get rid of the interrupt system
11:11:36 <mroman_> then it will be a plain virtual machine of some sort
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11:31:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ASCII art-]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43008&oldid=43007 * 160.85.232.168 * (+115)
11:35:21 <b_jonas> mroman_: oh, what are you doing?
11:41:00 <mroman_> My pre-bachelor thesis involved designing a computer and write an emulator for it
11:41:19 <mroman_> including assembler, disassembler
11:41:37 <mroman_> and MMU and CPU Cache Emulation
11:42:05 <mroman_> CPU Cache Emulation makes it rather slow :)
11:43:22 <mroman_> So I thought I might get rid of superfluous features
11:43:51 <mroman_> but now I'm already at thinking "wait.. what am I doing it for?"
11:45:43 <mroman_> as far as programming projects go I can't really do anything useful anymore
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12:27:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ASCII art-]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43009&oldid=43008 * Vriskanon * (+182)
12:32:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CalScript]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43010&oldid=42935 * Vriskanon * (+8) Bold, typos
12:34:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ASCII art-]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43011&oldid=42998 * Vriskanon * (+7) Bold, typos
12:38:35 <mroman_> SLOBOL was created in 2015
12:38:42 <mroman_> but was mentioned in an article back in 1984?
12:39:00 <mroman_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lesser_known_programming_languages
12:50:35 <ais523> mroman_: the original article was just a list of names
12:50:44 <ais523> and one-sentence descriptions
12:50:52 <ais523> some languages have since been created based on the descriptions
12:50:56 <ais523> but the descriptions came first
12:50:57 <ais523> does that makes sense?
12:58:01 <mroman_> Does rust's new return &T?
12:58:20 <b_jonas> I think I'm finally beginning to understand why some problem that looked like it might have a trivial solution but I couldn't find such a solution actually probably can't have a trivial solution of the form I was looking at.
12:58:41 <ais523> mroman_: rust's box normally returns Box<T>, which is a different sort of reference which can be borrowed to produce an &T
12:58:55 <ais523> it can't return an &T directly because it'd be unclear what you were borrowing from
13:00:08 <ais523> that's presumably just Arc<T>
13:00:26 <ais523> it's a reference, but it's not a borrowed reference
13:00:30 <ais523> & is for borrowed references specifically
13:00:41 <ais523> you can borrow an Arc<T> to produce an &T
13:01:12 <ais523> the difference between borrowed references and references in general is, when you borrow a reference you have to give it back (i.e. free/unborrow it by the end of the block)
13:01:21 <mroman_> If I write a function that accepts some &Arc<T> then foo(Arc::new(5)) wouldn't type check?
13:01:22 <ais523> things like Box and Rc and Arc and Gc have other rules
13:01:36 <b_jonas> Oh great, the good part is that the result that shows this appears in a 2013 article, so I might not have actually known about it when I started to think about it (though I could still have had suspicions).
13:01:51 <ais523> I'm not sure, you'd need to ask someone who's better at Rust
13:01:58 <ais523> I understand the basic concepts, but not the details
13:03:07 <ais523> @oeis 4, 14, 86, 782, 9332
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13:04:06 <j-bot> b_jonas: 2 7 43 391 4666
13:04:45 <mroman_> @oeis 4, 41, 68, 287, 2339
13:05:32 <ais523> b_jonas: I have good reason to believe that that sequence is O(n^n)
13:05:55 <b_jonas> wait, oeis has surpassed 250000 sequences/
13:15:54 <tromp> i got A256001 just the other day
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13:32:58 <int-e> b_jonas: what are you counting?
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13:33:29 <b_jonas> int-e: I'm not counting. ais523 has pasted some sequence.
13:34:07 <ais523> any ideas here as to what it is, btw? I was wondering if it was known
13:34:22 <ais523> came up at work, but out of something that would fit right into #esoteric
13:36:00 <b_jonas> Meaniwhile this is the article I'm looking at:
13:36:04 <b_jonas> Nice algebraic topology result: Martin Cadek, Marek Krcal, Jiri Matousek, Lukas Vokrinek, Uli Wagner, "Extendability of continuous maps is undecidable", arxiv.org/abs/1302.2370
13:36:16 <b_jonas> probably unrelated to what ais is doig
13:37:03 <ais523> come to think of it there's probably a 1 and 2 before that, less sure though
13:37:11 <b_jonas> ais' must be connected to decimal digits, for his second sequence is the map digitreversal of the first one
13:37:30 <ais523> I only sent one sequence?
13:37:43 <ais523> it's mroman_ who digitreversed it
13:37:51 <ais523> (and I'd be very surprised if it were connected to decimal)
13:38:28 <ais523> so basically what it is, is
13:38:45 <ais523> if I apply a mockingbird to a church numeral with side effects, it's the number of times that those side effects get evaluated
13:38:56 <ais523> when I give a couple of arguments to the resulting function
13:39:11 <b_jonas> um, which one has side effects when?
13:39:47 <ais523> the church numeral, and upon seeing two arguments
13:40:01 <ais523> i.e. let c2 f x = print "test"; f (f x)
13:41:53 <ais523> (and the mockingbird is "let m f = f f", as usual)
13:42:05 <ais523> or, well, most languages I know of explode if you give them mockingbirds
13:42:24 <ais523> I've been using one to test my type inference algorithm at work, the results aren't really pretty
13:42:30 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: r1 ~ r1 -> r
13:42:30 <lambdabot> Relevant bindings include f :: r1 -> r (bound at <interactive>:1:2)
13:42:30 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘f’, namely ‘f’
13:42:42 <mroman_> You can't mock a mockingbord.
13:42:45 <b_jonas> how about weakly typed languages?
13:42:51 <ais523> what's idris-bot's prefi?
13:42:57 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
13:43:07 <idris-bot> (input):1:7: error: expected: ",",
13:43:09 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
13:43:16 <b_jonas> it might still get into a loop consuming unbounded memory of course
13:43:18 <ais523> err, I can't rememer how to idris
13:43:28 <b_jonas> I think you remember how to perl
13:43:31 <ais523> Perl can mockingbird just fine, IIRC
13:43:51 <ais523> sub mockingbird { my $x = shift; &$x(&$x); }
13:44:16 <ais523> this is because the mockingbird is a perfectly well-defined function, it just doesn't have a sensible type in most type systems
13:44:20 <b_jonas> you mean &$x($x) instead of &$x(&$x)
13:45:10 <ais523> you can tell I've spent the last few days in languages which don't have separate concepts of "function" and "function pointer" :-)
13:45:18 <b_jonas> &$x without parenthesis is some crazy stuff that you almost never want to write, except maybe as some optimization, and is usually a mistake beginners make when they don't do that
13:45:31 <ais523> (OK, /technically/ you can construct a reference to a function in OCaml if you really want to, but it rarely has advantages over an actual function)
13:45:43 <ais523> sub mockingbird { my $x = shift; $x->($x); }
13:45:58 <ais523> also I'm pretty sure I've found legitimate uses for &$x
13:46:07 <ais523> but in such cases, what you /really/ want is often "goto &$x"
13:46:14 <b_jonas> you write crazy optimized code sometimes
13:46:24 <ais523> Perl is so unoptimized internally
13:46:32 <b_jonas> but it's really a beginner trap that shouldn't have such a simple syntax
13:46:43 <ais523> b_jonas: it's because it was the old syntax
13:46:48 <mroman_> @type let f x = x x in f id
13:46:49 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t2 ~ t2 -> t1
13:46:49 <lambdabot> x :: t2 -> t1 (bound at <interactive>:1:7)
13:46:57 <b_jonas> it's all for historical reasons
13:47:11 <ais523> (and the fact that it's the old syntax is, of course, the reason it's worse than the new one)
13:47:27 <ais523> to be fair the & syntax is hugely more logical than the syntax without hte &
13:47:35 <b_jonas> I actually prefer sigil dereference syntax than arrow dereference
13:47:39 <b_jonas> I use arrows only for method calls
13:47:48 <mroman_> @type let f x = x x; f :: (a -> a) -> (a -> a) -> (a -> a) in f id
13:47:50 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘(a1 -> a1) -> a1 -> a1’
13:47:50 <lambdabot> ‘a1’ is a rigid type variable bound by
13:47:51 <b_jonas> even when it gives ugly lines starting with ${${${$
13:48:15 <mroman_> @type let f x = x x; f :: (a -> a) -> (a -> a) in f id
13:48:16 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘a1 -> a1’ with actual type ‘a1’
13:48:16 <lambdabot> ‘a1’ is a rigid type variable bound by
13:48:16 <lambdabot> the type signature for f :: (a1 -> a1) -> a1 -> a1
13:48:26 <b_jonas> and I very rarely use implicit arrow between indexes too
13:48:37 <b_jonas> I just use the full dereference syntax basically
13:48:53 <ais523> b_jonas: I made a concious decision to move to implicit arrow in aimake a few months ago
13:49:18 <ais523> basically because I was chaining /so many/ dereferences that it made more code fit onto the screen, and if you're using it that much it's easy to get used to
13:51:13 <b_jonas> I usually write code such that I rarely have too many chained references though
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13:51:59 <b_jonas> there's also the crazy new arrow-sigil syntax
13:53:15 <ais523> that's still experimental, so I doubt anyone uses it for anything serious yet
13:53:56 <b_jonas> is it still experimental? I don't follow p5p these days
13:55:57 <b_jonas> https://metacpan.org/pod/release/RJBS/perl-5.22.0-RC1/pod/perlref.pod#Assigning-to-References
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13:57:41 <b_jonas> I don't even know how all the lexical variable aliasing stuff works because it has strange semantics with respect to closures and other scopes, something like closures getting their own copies of the pointer to scalar, rather than to the pointer to pointer to scalar,
13:58:11 <b_jonas> which is why aliasing lexicals is complicated and was kept mostly out of core so far.
13:58:35 <ais523> b_jonas: also the \$a = \$b thing was possible for ages if $a wasn't a lexical, but you had to go the long way round
13:59:02 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but there it had easy to understand semantics … most of the time
13:59:04 <ais523> oh wow, you can alias to list slices
13:59:12 <b_jonas> because there's only one pointer to \$a , from *a
13:59:13 <ais523> I am so happy they added syntax for that, it's possible in previous versions of Perl
13:59:20 <ais523> but you have to steal the magic from @_, which looks utterly bizarre
13:59:39 <b_jonas> (there's some surprise that ($a,$b)=($b,$a); is optimized wrong if $a and $b are the same scalar)
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14:00:42 <b_jonas> ais523: definitely possible, there's a cpan module for it called Data::Alias
14:01:23 <b_jonas> anyway, you're right, postfix dereference does seem to be experimental
14:06:01 <b_jonas> hmm, they even say “Aliasing does not work correctly with closures. If you try to alias lexical variables from an inner subroutine or eval, the aliasing will only be visible within that inner sub, and will not affect the outer subroutine where the variables are declared. This bizarre behavior is subject to change.”
14:13:58 <b_jonas> By the way, the trams have a new recorded message asking people to use all doors for getting on and off the tram. I wonder if they mean a quantum superposition of using each doors.
14:14:19 <b_jonas> But I think I'm too fat for that.
14:16:26 <mroman_> I thought they wanted to make Perl *less* weird
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14:35:10 <mroman_> I'll hopefully become a music teacher one day :D
14:35:53 <mroman_> Obviously because my programming skills will be useless in a decade or two
14:37:53 <mroman_> Programming isn't exempt from automatization.
14:37:55 <b_jonas> if you know the basics, you can easily learn more stuff about programming in the future, and your knowledge won't become useless
14:40:20 <mroman_> Yeah, but programming has an "upper bound"
14:40:55 <mroman_> at some point your programming skills don't matter so much as the knowledge in other areas
14:41:27 <mroman_> at some point all the easy/trivial programming things will either be done
14:41:37 <mroman_> leaving only the highly intellectual stuff
14:41:52 <mroman_> such as writing physics simulation for the universe or chemistry or whatever
14:42:00 <mroman_> which requires specific knowledge in those areas
14:42:07 <mroman_> which I currently lack and will never have
14:42:42 <mroman_> Mostly because getting to that level of knowledge about chemistry requires years of studying
14:42:43 <b_jonas> and is teaching music better?
14:42:53 <mroman_> it's actually much easier to study a *real* subject first and then learn programming
14:43:04 <mroman_> and it makes much more sense
14:43:11 <mroman_> b_jonas: no, but I gotta do something
14:43:33 <mroman_> and besides programming my only valuable other skill is playing some music instrument
14:45:01 <mroman_> the problem is that since you have to work full-time
14:45:17 <mroman_> you don't have much time to learn a new subject to prepare yourself for becoming useless
14:45:38 <mroman_> that's a serious issue in the way work life/economics currently works
14:45:57 <mroman_> You know that some people will be useless in the feature but you don't actively can prepare them for that
14:46:13 <paul2520> any recommended academic research papers (perhaps survey papers) on esoteric languages, or just prog langs in general?
14:46:56 <mroman_> b_jonas: for example cashiers are currently starting to becoming useless
14:47:14 <mroman_> because shops are already trying to replace them with self-checkouts to some degree
14:47:31 <mroman_> so it is reasonable to assume that in a decade not as many cashiers will be required anymore as today
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14:48:13 <mroman_> which means that these people will have to look out for other things they can do
14:49:01 <mroman_> that is, as long as you don't expect some resource collapse/apocalypse in the near future
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14:49:44 <mroman_> There's only a very small amount of things a programmer with my skills can do
14:49:51 <MDude> I'm guessing that if we get a lot of automation, we'll actually go back to hand-crafted stuff to a degree.
14:49:51 <mroman_> and there are a fucking lot of programmers out there
14:50:04 <mroman_> which makes my job market value rather low
14:50:59 <mroman_> especially since other countries eventually will catch up
14:51:37 <mroman_> which means that my advantage over some programmer in another country will weaken with time
14:51:59 <mroman_> strictly analytically speaking my career has absolutely no future in programming
14:52:27 <mroman_> unless some sort of apocalypse happens of course
14:55:21 <mroman_> if things continue the way they are I'm pretty certain I'll be mostly useless in about 4 to 5 years.
14:55:25 <mroman_> and completely useless within a decade
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15:41:28 <Jafet> "Programming languages" is a bit too broad to be covered by a survey paper, or even a journal
15:42:24 <Jafet> I guess there are about twenty esoteric languages worth studying, which could be the right length for a survey paper, but I don't know anyone who's written one
15:43:59 <Jafet> (or any topical journal that would accept one...)
16:00:00 <coppro> mroman_: Personally, I think you underestimate how long it will take for programming to be obsolete like that
16:01:26 <coppro> biggest is that specifying how a program works is a big part of the program, and that is something that can't be done automatically
16:01:40 <coppro> (at least, not at the level you're thinking of)
16:02:22 <Jafet> nor manually, as it often turns out
16:03:39 <coppro> in many cases, specifying what the program does amounts to writing it
16:05:04 <coppro> and this is in some sense impossible to improve upon, due to the halting problem
16:05:34 <coppro> The only way we're going to make notable advances is if people are going to accept "good enough" artificially made programs, but then you have to trust the definition of "good enough" selected.
16:05:50 <coppro> people will be unwilling to do that
16:06:19 <coppro> the only reasonable attractive approach at the moment is genetic algorithms, and someone needs to design the evolution process and fitness metric
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16:10:38 <MDude> An example of someone doing that for BF: http://www.primaryobjects.com/CMS/Article149
16:10:55 <Jafet> I've never heard of GA as a feasible approach for program synthesis.
16:12:06 <MDude> I guess if something more automatic is wanted, the auto-programmer could translate the specification to a fitness metric for a GA instead of directly itno code?
16:14:07 <MDude> Sometime I'd like to make a deliberately presumptious compiler that interprets (in the everyday sense, not the "language interpreter" sense") a specification very loosely.
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16:28:47 <Jafet> (Feasible approaches I've heard of: optimising classifiers (http://rise4fun.com/QuickCode), Hoare refinement (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/sumitg/pubs/vs3.html), game solving (http://termite2.org))
16:30:31 <Jafet> (I don't think GA can synthesize quicksort, for example)
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17:06:51 <MDude> I don't see how it wouldn't be able to.
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17:32:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BitChanger--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43012&oldid=38479 * 168.99.197.15 * (+10) bold name and linkify
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17:54:29 <oren> There is another problem, which is that user interface design is hard, and judginf by the fact that it is done very poorly by humans in most cases, I don't hold much hope for automatic systems
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18:03:02 <oren> I for one believe that algorithmic problems are a rather small subset of the difficulties of writing a useful, good program.
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18:09:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43013&oldid=42971 * SuperJedi224 * (+29)
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18:34:19 <oren> error: incompatible types when assigning to type ‘struct va7’ from type ‘struct va7’
18:36:40 <b_jonas> oren: don't write int f(struct va7 x); before you declare struct va7; in global scope in C or C++
18:37:17 <b_jonas> because then the type will be declared local to that one function, which is usually not what you want
18:37:49 <b_jonas> you don't have to define the struct, only declare it
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18:38:25 <oren> yah, that fixed it
18:38:26 <b_jonas> also, maybe enable some warnings and then the compiler will probably warn about this
18:38:36 <b_jonas> that's what warnings are for
18:38:45 <oren> I have all the warnings enables
18:39:10 <oren> it warned me but it went off my scrollback
18:39:31 <b_jonas> yeah, enabling warnings doesn't help when you enable so much that you don't read them
18:40:09 <b_jonas> disable or suppress the warnings you don't want to read
18:40:46 <b_jonas> also, <fistpump in air>, I get XP for crystal ball debugging
18:41:00 <b_jonas> I've practiced a lot with idiotic coworkers
18:43:15 <b_jonas> "what config are you using" -- "the default config" -- "which default? there's multiple configs in the repository" -- no reply -- "but have you changed option foo" -- "oh yes, I've changed that" -- "how about option bar" -- "yes, I changed that too"
18:43:37 <oren> I should change my makefile so that it only displays the head of the errors
18:43:39 <b_jonas> -- "okay, please send my the exact config file you're using"
18:45:33 <b_jonas> they eventually sent the config after like two weeks
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18:46:16 <oren> heh. yeah, well... some people don't like to get helped
18:46:35 <oren> anyway if I had had the mikefile do
18:46:39 <b_jonas> sure, but when it's my coworkers and it's my job to help them it's difficult
18:46:52 <oren> gcc -Wall -Wextra 2>err; head err
18:47:01 <oren> then I should have figured it out faster
18:47:57 <oren> really, there should be an option to reverse the order of error messages from gcc
18:49:46 <oren> like an error that occurs in the start of the build process is much more likely to be the source of the problem than one that occurs after 30 other errors
18:51:49 <b_jonas> yes, but compilation is sometimes slow, so in that case I prefer to read the first error messages while compiling that having to wait for the compilation the finish and then reversing the messages
18:52:52 <oren> hm.. I guess piping it to more might work
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19:50:39 <oren> nsh are you a shell program?
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20:02:37 <tswett> I'm going to start using HTML in my IRC messages and just assuming that everyone's client understands it.
20:05:40 <myname> we should add votekicks
20:06:10 <zzo38> I doubt it is common, but you can do if you want to I suppose (my own recommendation though is that you mainly don't unless you need special formatting)
20:09:07 <oren> <b><span style="color:crimson">NOOOO </span></b>>
20:11:02 <b_jonas> tswett: sure, use script tags too in case some irc clients actually interpret the scripts in local context
20:11:35 <b_jonas> tswett: heck, and call DOM functions from them to edit other people's lines
20:11:36 <oren> <script>alert("AAAAAAAA");</script>
20:12:53 <tswett> oren: hey, why aren't you using <b style="color:crimson">?
20:13:06 <oren> the page at freenode.net/esoteric says: AAAAAAAA
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20:14:30 <b_jonas> tswett: <b><font color=dc143c> is shorter I think
20:15:40 <oren> tswett: because i am qriting trje code off topof mu heas hyh
20:17:19 <oren> i also just remembered i;m supposef to be learmimg tp touhc typw
20:18:13 <oren> thr damnh it the
20:18:46 <b_jonas> you are typing on qwerty, aren't you?
20:19:56 <oren> i'n rtyimg not to look at thr kruboard
20:20:57 <b_jonas> you can look at the screen of course
20:21:56 <b_jonas> and try to type in a steady rhythm, hit each key with consistently the same finger, and keep your hands consistently on the home row position
20:23:03 <oren> ywah you know i just realized that ^H is easier to reach than backspace
20:34:45 <tswett> Remap caps lock to backspace.
20:44:15 <oren> remap spacr + any letter to ^that letter
20:52:33 <b_jonas> remap left foot pedal to control, right foot pedal to shift
20:57:03 -!- ZombieAlive has joined.
20:58:31 <tswett> Remap backspace to brake and enter to accelerator.
20:59:44 <oren> remap shift to clutch
21:01:13 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
21:01:57 <tswett> A, S, D, F, and G are the forward gears and R is reverse.
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21:20:49 <MDude> SHould OpenCog atomspace be listed as an esoteric language?
21:20:51 <MDude> http://blog.opencog.org/2013/03/24/why-hypergraphs/
21:21:15 <MDude> "The bad thing about the OpenCog atomspace is that almost no one understands that, ahem, it is a programming language."
21:21:48 <MDude> I'd say most people not even realizing that it's a programming language at all makes it pretty esoteric.
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21:48:28 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:48:36 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
21:48:43 <zemhill_> Taneb: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
21:48:43 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:49:29 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
21:50:43 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
21:50:44 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
21:50:44 <myndzi> /< c.c >\ >\| | /`\ c.c /| | /'\|/< c.c /<
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21:51:52 <Taneb> We have a lot of bots
21:53:23 <Taneb> There's j-bot as well
21:53:29 <Taneb> But I don't know idris or J
21:57:00 <Melvar> I implemented simple string interpolation as a library in idris, did you hear?
21:57:30 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:57:30 <Melvar> (I have a hard time keeping quiet about that because I’m so proud of my ridiculousness.)
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22:04:33 <Taneb> Melvar, yes, I saw
22:05:46 * Taneb is trying to help people learn about computability
22:07:13 <sam_w> he has his work cut out
22:08:13 <oren> `run wget https://raw.githubusercontent.com/orenwatson/scrip7/master/scrip7.c
22:08:16 <HackEgo> --2015-05-21 22:09:11-- https://raw.githubusercontent.com/orenwatson/scrip7/master/scrip7.c \ Resolving raw.githubusercontent.com (raw.githubusercontent.com)... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `raw.githubusercontent.com'
22:08:52 <oren> `run wget 'https://raw.githubusercontent.com/orenwatson/scrip7/master/scrip7.c'
22:08:53 <HackEgo> --2015-05-21 22:09:50-- https://raw.githubusercontent.com/orenwatson/scrip7/master/scrip7.c \ Resolving raw.githubusercontent.com (raw.githubusercontent.com)... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `raw.githubusercontent.com'
22:08:59 <Taneb> oren, I think it is whitelisted for URLs
22:09:37 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
22:10:06 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:10:18 <oren> `fetch https://raw.githubusercontent.com/orenwatson/scrip7/master/scrip7.c
22:10:22 <HackEgo> 2015-05-21 22:11:18 URL:https://raw.githubusercontent.com/orenwatson/scrip7/master/scrip7.c [21889/21889] -> "scrip7.c" [1]
22:11:13 <oren> `run gcc scrip7.c -lm -fwrapv -o /bin/scrip7
22:11:18 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/ld: cannot open output file /bin/scrip7: Read-only file system \ collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
22:11:35 <oren> `run gcc scrip7.c -lm -fwrapv -o ~/bin/scrip7
22:11:36 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/ld: cannot open output file /tmp/bin/scrip7: No such file or directory \ collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
22:11:55 <oren> `run gcc scrip7.c -lm -fwrapv -o bin/scrip7
22:13:06 <oren> `run echo 'I=%ffffffffffffffff _pX' | scrip7
22:13:17 <oren> `run echo 'I=%7fffffffffffffff _pX' | scrip7
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22:15:06 <Taneb> oren, I think you need a backtick
22:15:24 <Melvar> `run echo 'I=%8000000000000000 _pX' | scrip7
22:17:13 <oren> `run echo 'I=%8000000000000000 Y>1 Y=1 Y/X _pY' | scrip7
22:17:36 <oren> one over negative zero is negative infinty. seems legit
22:18:39 -!- ZombieAlive has joined.
22:18:41 <oren> `run echo 'I=%8000000000000000Y>1Y=1Y/X_pY' | scrip7
22:18:47 <oren> `run echo 'I=%8000000000000000 Y>1Y=1Y/X_pY' | scrip7
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22:19:12 <oren> Hmm why do I need a space there again?
22:20:52 <oren> `run echo 'a='Y a+30 a%39 _pa' | scrip7
22:20:53 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
22:21:04 <oren> `run echo "a='Y a+30 a%39 _pa" | scrip7
22:21:17 <oren> right, Y is a valid hex digit
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22:22:25 <oren> `run echo "a='F a+30 a%39 _pa" | scrip7
22:22:44 <oren> `run echo "a='f a+30 a%39 _pa" | scrip7
22:23:04 <Melvar> What are the hex digits then?
22:23:23 <oren> hmm I'm not sure
22:23:29 <oren> it might be a bug
22:23:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RDF-fuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43014 * Zzo38 * (+2309) Created page with "This is experiment to make a programming language with RDF graphs like [[XMLfuck]] is using XML documents. It is like [[brainfuck]] because it is a simple way to do and becaus..."
22:24:11 <oren> except that the code somehow works
22:24:32 <zzo38> They made XMLfuck therefore now I can make RDF-fuck too
22:24:49 <Taneb> How do I tell if 4^n is in O(2^n)
22:25:36 <oren> 4^n/2^n = (4/2)^n = 2^n --> infty therefore it isnt
22:27:04 <oren> `run echo "a='f _pa" | scrip7
22:27:22 <oren> `run echo "a='f a+30 _pa" | scrip7
22:27:40 <oren> `run echo "I='f I+30 I%39 _pa" | scrip7
22:27:43 <zzo38> The page I just added to esolang wiki contains many external links although most are links to non-existent anchors on the page itself; a few are to W3.
22:27:46 <oren> `run echo "I='F I+30 I%39 _pa" | scrip7
22:32:41 <Taneb> The mark scheme has it more formally
22:33:09 <oren> `run echo "J>1 J=' [ I=J I+30 I%39 Il15 _.I # Jl'~ } #" | scrip7
22:33:59 <oren> `run echo "J>1 J=' [ I=J I+30 I%39 Il15 _.I # J+1 Jl'~ } #" | scrip7
22:34:38 <oren> `run echo "J>1 J=' [ I=J I+30 I%39 Il15 _.J # J+1 Jl'~ } #" | scrip7
22:34:39 <HackEgo> 0123456789:;<=>?WXYZ[\]^_`abcdef~
22:34:48 <oren> those are the valid hex digits
22:36:10 <oren> Y is therefore the same as uh... 2
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22:37:39 <oren> because the hevily simplified formula I used was that if the caharcter i, plus 30, mod 39 is less than 16, it's a valid didigt
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22:38:37 <oren> this gives the characters 0-9 and a-f their correct values, but allows a bounch of other chars to be valid
22:40:04 <oren> The code above goes thru the characters from space to ~ and outputs the ones which are valid by this rule
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23:36:44 <lambdabot> CYUL 212300Z 22015G21KT 30SM FEW060 FEW080 FEW240 18/01 A2975 RMK CU1AC1CI1 CU TR SLP074 DENSITY ALT 600FT
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23:46:57 <Taneb> Anyone has any idea when the next IOCCC'll be?
23:49:30 <MDude> International Offensive Creata-a-Contest Contest?
23:50:09 <MDude> I want a contest where the objective is to make a good contest.
23:50:33 <Taneb> Alas, I was referring to the less interesting International Obfuscated C Coding Contest
23:51:52 <MDude> Contests are evaluated based on participation turnout, viewership and judge discernment abilitiy.
23:52:05 <MDude> Or critera quality.
23:52:15 <MDude> Obfuscated C contest sounds nice though.