00:00:17 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/thyme:Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano.
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00:03:46 <oerjan> <oren> ghci is such a scow, why is its syntax different from a .has file <-- imo, because you cannot unambiguously parse a line that might be either an expression or the start of a definition.
00:04:28 <shachaf> oerjan: "x = 5" is unambiguous
00:04:49 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, but that's not the only legal form of first line of a definition
00:05:00 <shachaf> well, if you required all of them to be on one line
00:05:05 <shachaf> multiline definitions are a different issue
00:05:20 <shachaf> but now that "data T ..." is legal, i don't see why "x = 5" shouldn't be
00:05:24 <oerjan> shachaf: but then you'd still have people complaining that they couldn't paste .hs files directly into ghci
00:05:39 <shachaf> which already exists for multiline definitions
00:05:57 <shachaf> ok, you probably still couldn't because .hs files can be out of order and that's asking a bit much
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00:06:07 <oerjan> shachaf: i mean "newbies", aka the people you're trying to avoid having to explain this to - replacing it with having to explain :{ instead is useless.
00:06:20 <shachaf> but :{ is a p. good smiley face
00:06:22 <oren> shachaf: what's that, the mustachioed guy operator?
00:06:27 <shachaf> is that a big moustache or what?
00:06:33 <oerjan> oh i didn't even think of the out of order thig.
00:06:40 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway it's not about explaining things, it's about using it myself hth
00:07:17 <oerjan> oren: anyway, they could probably fix it so some more cases worked out of the box, but having "typing the contents of a .hs file into ghci always works" work is hopeless.
00:07:54 <shachaf> :{ \ x :: Int \ print 1 \ x = 2 \ :}
00:08:08 <oerjan> given the recent reddit discussion i saw, it's somewhat likely that they'll try to improve it soon
00:08:33 <shachaf> should i try keeping up with reddit.com/r/haskell
00:08:44 <shachaf> i stopped after a long streak of scow
00:08:58 <oerjan> you don't have to read _every_ post
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00:11:50 <oerjan> although no one in the reddit discussion pointed out the obvious ambiguities, if i hadn't been several days late to read it i might have
00:11:57 <shachaf> i filed a bunch of filler ghci bugs a while ago but i forgot i was going to mention that one
00:12:10 <oerjan> (which means it's only obvious to me, i guess)
00:12:21 <shachaf> maybe it's so obvious that no one else found it necessary to mention hth
00:12:40 <shachaf> a "filler" bug is one whose bug number is slightly below #10000
00:13:11 <oerjan> wait, does that mean i should look at #9999 and down to see your work
00:13:16 <shachaf> by the way it's a shame bug #10000 was a duplicate
00:13:29 <shachaf> i think it deserved all the discussion from #9858
00:13:32 <oerjan> indeed, otoh it brought so much back into life
00:13:49 <oerjan> did you notice they didn't manage to fix it completely in 7.10.1
00:14:33 <shachaf> i stopped paying attention sometime after i became famous hth
00:15:05 <oerjan> shachaf: the (,) constraint vs. * ambiguity, mainly
00:15:20 <oerjan> well, () and => vs. -> was the exploit
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00:15:53 <shachaf> well i'll just rely on SafeHaskell from now on to prevent people from deleting my files
00:17:16 <shachaf> oh the tuple constraints thing was changed after 7.10 was released
00:19:34 <shachaf> i remembered that it happened, just not the timeline
00:19:49 <oerjan> also after that they've changed it into an actual class
00:21:56 <oerjan> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9995 i'm with #2
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00:29:25 <oerjan> <oren> It's a loop with tail recursion <-- what shachaf is trying to imply is that haskell's laziness means tail recursion is often not an improvement, and this is one of those cases.
00:29:42 <shachaf> i wasn't trying to imply that but i did think it
00:30:25 <oerjan> also, when tail recursion _is_ an improvement, you often need explicit strictness annotation to make it so.
00:30:43 <shachaf> sometimes you can use implicit strictness annotation hth
00:33:06 <HackEgo> mockingbird/mockingbird is watching you.. closely! Is it mocking you? Probably.
00:33:47 * oerjan tries to swat mockingbird but misses -----###
00:34:02 <shachaf> maybe `? should give a random wisdom when run with no arguments
00:34:40 <HackEgo> fentimans/fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack.
00:35:00 <HackEgo> certainty/We don't know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor.
00:38:02 <HackEgo> forty means "in a fort-like manner"
00:38:06 <shachaf> `? people who taneb is not
00:38:07 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
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00:38:23 <shachaf> Taneb: Is that a complete list?
00:38:30 <oerjan> shachaf: but of course
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00:40:54 <HackEgo> nooodl is the correct spelling
00:40:57 <HackEgo> nooodl is the correct spelling
00:41:05 <HackEgo> nooooodl is the correct spelling
00:41:33 <HackEgo> Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)
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01:26:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenir: not found
01:26:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenida: not found
01:27:00 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
01:27:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenu: not found
01:28:46 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:29:06 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/en .*/en EFnet o DALnet.)/' wisdom/bienvenido
01:29:06 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/bienvenido: No such file or directory
01:29:14 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/en .*/en EFnet o DALnet.)/' wisdom/`welcome.es
01:29:15 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:29:19 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/en .*/en EFnet o DALnet.)/' wisdom/welcome.es
01:29:30 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
01:30:10 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.bork \ wisdom/welcome.es \ wisdom/welcome.fi
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01:43:27 <Nihilumbra> The morris worm from 1987 or 88 what was it
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01:44:43 <oerjan> not to be confused with the morris dance
01:46:53 <oerjan> it's good at replicating itself hth
01:58:59 <Nihilumbra> Give me an alternitave language that can make a site fully functionable without the usage of javascript but can make the same style and quality of a java run site
02:03:10 <oerjan> are you confusing java and javascript, they are completely different.
02:04:26 <Nihilumbra> I know they are different I just can't word atm
02:04:54 <oerjan> a lot of languages could work in principle but they have the problem that _your site_ doesn't get to decide what user's _browsers_ support, and javascript is the only thing that works widely without users installing anything extra these days.
02:05:49 <oerjan> however, there are quite a lot of languages that can be _compiled_ to javascript.
02:06:03 <Nihilumbra> Why is everything with javascript, I want more versitile sites
02:07:09 <oerjan> because javascript was what got improved upon to fix the even more horrible mess that existed before.
02:08:01 <oerjan> java btw tried to be it, but failed.
02:08:36 * oerjan should note that he isn't a web developer so may be missing something.
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02:10:39 <Nihilumbra> Ah, I forgot Oerjan is in his 40's he was in the nightmare of the early internet
02:11:33 <oerjan> it wasn't much of a nightmare for me, but then i didn't have to program it.
02:12:55 <oerjan> i didn't have to try to make fancy websites
02:13:34 <oerjan> my own website (hideously out-of-date, i seem to just drop in new files and link them from the wiki these days) doesn't even have CSS.
02:14:28 <Nihilumbra> Why do I get strong nostalgia when I think of the 1950's-1990's even though I'm a young
02:15:02 <Nihilumbra> Maybe its because of all the history I learn on a day to day basis
02:15:04 <oerjan> clearly reincarnation hth
02:35:51 <shachaf> oerjan: i assume that nvg.org is Taneb's domain
02:36:55 <shachaf> so is it elliott's, a rabbi's, Mark Zuckerberg's, or James Bond's?
02:37:04 <oren> Maybe I should get a personal site, everyone seems to have one
02:37:15 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: oerjan.nvg.org
02:37:59 <shachaf> i have a fairly impersonal site
02:43:01 <zzo38> You can make webpages and stuff even just with HTML you don't need JavaScripts. If you use server codes then you can use whatever programming language you want, Javascript if you like it, or C, or PHP, or whatever else
02:43:46 <zzo38> If you want interactive with server codes you can also make telnet protocol or SSH protocol
02:44:16 <oren> lol telnet that sounds cool.
02:45:12 <zzo38> Interactive internet protocol. Whatever it receive it will do by the terminal emulator (usually VT100 or related), and when you push key it send.
02:45:13 <oren> telnet is pretty much just a two-way tcp connection to whatever program is on the other end
02:46:17 <oren> It is unencrypted, so it can easily be spoofed, spied on etc. which is why people nowadays generally use ssh
02:47:04 <oren> E.g. when you send a password to login over a telnet connection, the password is sent as plain text
02:47:32 <oren> so if someone is capturing your packets, now they know your password
02:47:37 <zzo38> SSH is more secure; it support not only login by password but also you can do authentication by keys too, and some other security features
02:48:46 <zzo38> Another thing of SSH is you can do X forwarding which allow to make GUI, but then you need X if you want to be able to access the GUI. I do not recommend that if a services is made on internet you use SSH, that you require X so you should provide text/command-line mode too whether or not the GUI is provided.
02:49:48 <zzo38> You should use limited codes compatible with VT100/ANSI/xterm if possible since subset of those are the most portable terminal codes.
02:50:46 <zzo38> (Although, some servers also provide option for different terminal types, or you can check the client's terminal type string to see what it identifies itself as, or do both)
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02:55:58 <pikhq> Telnet *over SSL* is reasonably secure though.
02:56:23 <pikhq> And (though I don't know if anyone does this) you could even use client certs instead of passwords with it.
02:56:44 <pikhq> (but yes, SSH is much more convenient for this. Because seriously, who does Telnet over SSL other than IBM?)
03:08:29 <zzo38> Telnet is also a simpler protocol. But, if you want security then use SSH
03:10:59 <oren> I just reaalized, that instead of running dwarf fortress over X tunneling, I can set it to text display!
03:12:45 <Jafet> What a strange concept
03:13:03 <Jafet> (Does it have a text display? Do you have a cp437 terminal?)
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04:09:48 <Lyka> gonna fork the 4FK-Based Interpreted Language for the Arduino called Octopus into both Squid and Cuttlefish over the course of a few days
04:10:30 <Lyka> Development on Octopus will continue as long as 4FK is being developed by me
04:17:31 <oren> Yeah I have a cp437 compatible font (Liberation Mono)
04:24:39 <oren> Hmm, but tis font sucks. getting a better one
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04:27:16 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/backup/pc_character_set.chr
04:27:21 <zzo38> That is a better font
04:31:02 <Nihilumbra> If you can't see your internet you don't have internet
04:31:49 <Nihilumbra> Does one pronounce router as rooter or r- OW- ter
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04:34:46 <Lyka|Phone> anyone wanna see the current command list for 4FK Octopus?
04:36:01 <Nihilumbra> @bf ++++++++++++[>++>+++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<<<<<<-]++++++++++++>>>>>>----.>>>---.--.<----.<<<<<<----.>>>>>>>+++++.<<<<<-.<<.>>>>>>>+.<<<<<<<.>>++..<<.>+.
04:37:36 <password2> sounds lik bf with only 4 commands?
04:38:08 <Lyka|Phone> actually, bf with four-letter commands
04:39:13 <Nihilumbra> Have you unplugged it and plugged it back in
04:40:29 <Nihilumbra> Determining where to put certain strings at random intervels into a stack is very weird
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04:42:46 <Lyka|Phone> let me ssh into my web server, where I was in the process of copying the files there
04:43:36 <Lyka> Octopus (4FK+LCD1602
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04:47:43 <oren> Apparently someone converted all the DF tilesets to ttf fonts. http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=1922
04:50:59 <Nihilumbra> That's a nice set of brainfuck four king
04:51:23 <oren> The connection was refused
04:51:24 <zzo38> Let me to see the .txt file when you are completely finish with it; right now I am not interest to loo at right now
04:54:14 <zzo38> Telnet does not have security.
04:54:30 <zzo38> It doesn't mean telnet is unsafe
04:55:13 <Nihilumbra> So telnet is crap security wise but ssh helps
04:55:30 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/6apsrm5ej/ <-- playing DF over ssh & GNU screen!
04:56:07 <oren> the coonection was refused when trying to go to sif.lesidhetree.com
04:56:37 <zzo38> Yes. Telnet, like HTTP and Gopher and SMTP and IRC and so on, is not a secure protocol; this means that data is not encrypted. SSH encrypts the data and has other security features, in order to improve the security.
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04:57:40 <oren> oh, I mispelled it that's why
04:57:46 <Nihilumbra> Oren, its because of those amazing unheard if dog breeds
05:00:18 <Nihilumbra> Then what are you doing here?! Go complete it
05:00:30 <Lyka|Phone> major changes may have to happen for it to work with cuttlefish
05:01:11 <Nihilumbra> Tell me about cuttle and shell fish later
05:08:46 <Lyka|Phone> okay, 4FK now has nothing in common with bf
05:10:45 <Lyka|Phone> cause it's less esolang and more machine code
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05:18:11 <zzo38> Why does it say "error: 'Sample' has no member named 'data'" even though it does have that member? (I get the same error for all of the other members)
05:18:58 <zzo38> O, I figured out now
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08:28:54 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/akjGQLo.png
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08:32:35 <Sgeo_> Different one I gave compat mode, and it bluescreened me
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08:57:03 <mroman_> I need his opinion on the implication of lisp-like languages in the modern world on frequency of parentheses in text messages on social networks from people that are married to computer linguists.
09:01:00 <oren> Man, Dwarf fortress fonts make text very compact on screen
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09:06:22 <mroman_> fungot: What's your opinion on the implication of lisp-like languages in the modern world on frequency of parentheses in text messages on social networks from people that are married to computer linguists.
09:06:22 <fungot> mroman_: neilv what portion of the package that the macro then
09:11:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
09:11:57 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
09:12:09 <int-e> fungot: did you or didn't you?
09:12:09 <fungot> int-e: attached you will find that the same i/ ii kay as mentioned on a voicemail i left you on thursday on the robert trent, f) class 2002-04 meeting times: how democrats love the new source review which requires the use of the commission
09:17:03 <mroman_> fungot: What's your favorite Burlesque program?
09:17:03 <fungot> mroman_: it is the only two, we are to stress on the household and the next few years.??)
09:17:09 <mroman_> Mine is ln)XXtp)><)F:)<]u[/v\[
09:21:16 <mroman_> it however only really works if and only if one and exactly one permutation is missing
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11:08:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43129&oldid=42826 * Esowiki201529A * (+31) /* base 7 system */ new section
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14:07:04 <mroman_> fungot: Don't you hate people that don't use -Wall -Werror --std=c89 -pedantic?
14:07:04 <fungot> mroman_: public opinion of the in air of discontent is reflecting on a couple of years." bc: sheila a knudsen in ena had is whether it will/ hou/ ect on 10/ 10.
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14:10:37 <fizzie> Warns for every occurrence of the xor operator.
14:11:20 <Deewiant> Warns for every occurrence of chickens.
14:14:04 <b_jonas> mroman_: no. But I hate the people that try to claim that by using a couple of compiler switches like that they have magically proved that their program is standards compliant.
14:14:39 <mroman_> well, that would depend on how good the compiler is at rejecting non standard compliant programs
14:15:00 <b_jonas> mroman_: and solving the halting problem
14:15:18 <b_jonas> and some other impossible things
14:16:34 <mroman_> because of runtime overflows?
14:16:55 <mroman_> a compiler could just assume that every addition overflows :)
14:17:14 <mroman_> and require you to do bounds checking before every one of them.
14:17:24 <b_jonas> mroman_: more for using dangling pointers
14:17:36 <b_jonas> but sure, overflows too if you wish
14:18:24 <mroman_> gcc surely could employ some of the stuff the rust compiler does :)
14:19:18 <b_jonas> mroman_: you could interpret most of the stuff in some more well-behaved programs for a particular run, but you can't check for all input,
14:19:36 <b_jonas> or even for a fixed input, the program could run for riddiculously long time so you can't run it to completion in practice,
14:19:58 <mroman_> I was refering to doing more strict compile-time analytics.
14:20:04 <b_jonas> so you can't check if it will dereference a dangling pointer like 2**2**100 seconds later.
14:20:33 <mroman_> but yeah, that doesn't really work well with C.
14:20:55 <mroman_> I just don't like seeing compiler warnings
14:21:04 <mroman_> because it seems suspicious :)
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14:30:31 <mroman_> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Teightath/blob/master/src/types.c#L42 <- I'd whish gcc would produce a warning for these things as well
14:33:35 <mroman_> and yes this means I'm back in the esolang business :)
14:34:04 <mroman_> I'm intending on writing a GolfVM in the usual VM style
14:34:13 <mroman_> i.e. not relying on too much runtime dynamic
14:34:25 <mroman_> (meaning no eval capabilities and such)
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14:41:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43130&oldid=43063 * Lesidhetree * (+813) A little update...more coming very soon.
14:42:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43131&oldid=43051 * Lesidhetree * (+375) added a little disclaimer
15:00:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43132&oldid=43130 * Lesidhetree * (+66) /* Operators */ Edited some stuff
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15:02:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43133&oldid=43132 * Lesidhetree * (-232) /* Example programs */
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15:06:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43134&oldid=43133 * Lesidhetree * (-727) Removed a few sections I felt couldn't be filled in yet.
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15:09:37 <Lyka> fine...edited th wiki
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15:16:45 <jakob__> Hey I was wondering if you know of any esoteric programming tools
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15:55:48 <HackEgo> olist 989: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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18:32:59 <oren> Um, did the C standards people know they were asking the compiler to solve the halting problem?
18:33:49 <shachaf> C isn't Turing-complete, so probably not.
18:34:56 <ais523> shachaf: it can be, nothing in the definition of files prevents them being infinitely long
18:35:01 <ais523> and that's the only sticking point
18:35:13 <oren> Good point. If C is compiled for a computer with 64K ram, could a modern computer detect all cases of overflow?
18:35:47 <shachaf> ais523: I thought the C99 definition of files didn't allow for infinitely long files.
18:36:02 <shachaf> Because you can always get the current position.
18:36:07 <ais523> shachaf: a file position's an opaque object, though
18:36:17 <ais523> so that only places a limit on how many times you can request the file position
18:36:21 <oren> doesn't it require off_t to be an integer of some kind?
18:36:24 <shachaf> But it still has to fit in memory.
18:36:37 <ais523> off_t is a struct on some systems, I think
18:36:46 <ais523> shachaf: a file position? yes, but it doesn't have to be meaningful
18:37:14 <oren> ais523: well that sure fucks up some code i've written!
18:37:29 <ais523> well, there are two file position functions
18:38:08 <ais523> one returns an integer but might not work on large files
18:38:11 <ais523> the other returns an opaque struct
18:38:47 <ais523> actually the integers are allowed to be opaque too, and are on some weird platforms
18:40:57 <oren> I seems that GCC does us the service of saying they are integers.
18:41:24 <ais523> gcc just reacts to what the type actually is
18:41:32 <ais523> rather than what it potentially could be
18:42:00 <oren> oh, right. I mean glibc not gcc
18:42:58 <oren> anyway I was using the integerness to skip to particular files within an archive and read them
18:43:56 <ais523> that's common, and if you open the file as a binary file, nearly always works
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18:49:19 <APic\splat> oren: Not having to be meaningful fucks up Your Code? What the Fuck?
18:49:48 <ais523> I always thought it was a verb
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18:50:22 <APic\splat> WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) [wn] has both Noun and Verb.
18:50:51 <ais523> well, English doesn't have a rule of capitalizing nouns anyway, so it normally doesn't matter which it is when you're using "fuck" as part of an interjection
18:51:19 <ais523> although you are at least consistent about it, and it gives you a style of your own
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18:59:15 <oren> Fuck can be a noun or verb.
19:28:10 <tswett> oren: where does the C standard ask the compiler to solve the halting problem?
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19:28:34 <zzo38> When you want to make table/infobox/etc on wiki, you should try to do data-oriented coding, such as to allow to put SQL codes or RDF graphs (or both) with each page, and then other templates and pages can query it.
19:43:41 <fizzie> oren: ais523: off_t (which is part of POSIX, not C) does need to be an integral type. fpos_t, which is what fgetpos/fsetpos use, can be something more complicated.
19:46:16 <fizzie> (off_t is used by the file-descriptor-level lseek and some others.)
19:46:51 <shachaf> Can it be something more complicated which represents an unbounded position in a file?
19:46:56 <ais523> APic\splat: bleh, you're confusing me, both of those nouns /are/ capitalized naturally in English
19:47:06 <ais523> so the sentence doesn't look any different from normal ;-)
19:47:30 <ais523> (C is an abbreviation, Turing is a person's name)
19:48:42 <fizzie> It's a letter out of "BCPL", allegedly.
19:48:55 <ais523> tswett: it's the second letter of "BCPL" which stands for "Basic Computer Programming Language"
19:49:03 <fizzie> Combined, not Computer.
19:49:09 <fizzie> (Assuming Wikipedia is right.)
19:49:12 <ais523> huh, I guess you're right there
19:49:21 <ais523> so I guess that C is an abbreviation for Combined
19:49:30 <ais523> the book I learned compiler construction from had most of its examples in BCPL
19:49:41 <ais523> it's an interesting language, with some pretty bizarrely named keywords
19:49:55 <ais523> e.g. "test then or" rather than "if then else"
19:50:07 <APic\splat> shachaf: Probably nothing can be more complicated than the „C-Standard“.
19:50:25 <tswett> When does real English use "else" to mean "otherwise"?
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19:50:53 <ais523> tswett: it's colloquial, I think
19:51:04 <ais523> not really correct but you hear it in casual conversation sometimes
19:52:15 <b_jonas> ais523: I think some old language uses "whentrue" and "whenfalse" but I'm not sure
19:52:48 <b_jonas> probably one of those old languages that still have three-way equal-greater-less branches
19:52:48 <ais523> that's INTERCAL levels of verbosity :-)
19:53:02 <b_jonas> ais523: no, those are single tokens, single column on the card
19:53:21 <shachaf> I guess that's ifTrue: ifFalse:
19:54:36 <fizzie> Forth has the words 'if', 'then' and 'else', but due to the "syntax", it can sound a bit strange when read, since the equivalent of C a(); if (b()) then c(); else d(); e(); looks somewhat like a b IF c ELSE d THEN e
19:55:09 <fizzie> (Some people use 'ENDIF' in place of 'THEN' because of that.)
19:55:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: not much worse than python's in-expression conditional though
19:55:34 <b_jonas> new style, not golf and-or
19:55:47 <b_jonas> how does that look exactly these days?
19:56:19 <fizzie> Right, the one where "a ? b : c" maps to "b if a else c".
19:57:04 <ais523> "a and b or c" is possibly clearer, although it doesn't work if b is falsy
19:57:13 <fizzie> It can look exceedingly silly if you mix it with comprehensions, which also have the 'if' condition for filtering.
19:57:42 <tswett> Was "b if a else c" introduced in 2 or 3?
19:58:05 <fizzie> And having a nested x for e in l for x in e thing can be nasty too.
19:58:13 <tswett> If it's still in 3, then I think that's reason enough to pull a Python 3 a second time.
19:58:41 <zzo38> I have seen Forth systems with THEN built-in, ENDIF built-in, both built-in, and neither built-in (but one or the other defined in the standard library); still if you have THEN or ENDIF you can easily define the other if you want it. (I have seen one that has ENDIF built-in but defines THEN in the standard library to have the same meaning as ENDIF does.)
19:58:51 <tswett> And it would be called...
19:59:11 <fizzie> [x for s in l for x in s] is arguably an "idiom" for flattening l.
20:00:26 <fizzie> `run python -c 'l = [(1, 2), (3, 4, 5), (6, 7)]; print [x for s in l for x in s]'
20:01:12 <shachaf> > let l = [[1,2],[3,4,5],[6,7]] in [x | s <- l, x <- s]
20:01:17 <zzo38> Haskell's do-notation is like a kind of generalization of that though
20:01:29 <zzo38> So it is not limit to lists
20:02:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: and there's qbasic, which doesn't usually ignore spaces, but defines ENDIF and END IF as equivalent for historical reasons
20:03:39 <b_jonas> but BASIC generally has crazy keywords
20:03:46 <zzo38> In the QBASIC IDE if you type "ENDIF" it will automatically change it to "END IF"
20:04:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: only if you enable autoformatting, the default, which also changes a = b + c to a=b + c
20:04:17 <zzo38> And if you type a question mark it will replace it with "PRINT" for you. However, the compiler doesn't accept a question mark. (The FreeBasic compiler does, but the QuickBasic compiler doesn't accept it)
20:04:36 <b_jonas> the compiler doesn't accept the question mark? strange
20:04:45 <b_jonas> the question mark has been along for like forever
20:05:02 <b_jonas> as long as character-based free syntax basic probably
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20:05:24 <zzo38> QBASIC also changes square brackets into parentheses
20:05:29 <b_jonas> then there's the commodore 64 which allows print or pri or pR iirc
20:05:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: what? I never tried that
20:05:50 <b_jonas> where do square brackets even come from?
20:05:55 <b_jonas> are those used in any basic?
20:06:08 <zzo38> I don't know, but if you type in square brackets that is what it does.
20:07:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: that the compiler doesn't accept ? would be strange because the immediate window does, and that window doesn't do autoformat
20:07:18 <zzo38> The compiler and IDE use a few differences in what it accepts. Only the IDE accepts a question mark for PRINT, and only the compiler accepts an underscore for line continuation.
20:07:30 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I know the immediate window accepts it
20:08:01 <zzo38> Even without autoformatting it accepts ? in place of PRINT
20:09:20 <b_jonas> hmm... where do I toggle autoformatting? there's a "Syntax Checking" option but that doesn't seem to do this
20:09:34 <zzo38> I do't think there is actually such an option
20:10:01 <b_jonas> hmm, it actually inserts spaces around assignment
20:10:15 <zzo38> The main window (unless it is a "document" file type, used in QBX) will always do autoformatting, although sometimes it forgets to autoformat I don't know why
20:10:54 <b_jonas> wasn't there an option that both turned off autoformatting and let you see all subs at once as a single text?
20:11:11 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: press control-C or click the interrupt button
20:11:20 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: what language and ide?
20:11:37 <J_Arcane> I've made the poor listener go to sleep.
20:12:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: At least in QBX, if you tell it to load an additional file and tell it that the file is a "document", it will do that. However, it will not execute the file in that case.
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20:12:43 <b_jonas> heck, this was long ago, I don't remember
20:13:18 <b_jonas> maybe I just have to edit with an external editor and run with qbasic /run
20:13:32 <zzo38> Yes, that will do it
20:15:02 <zzo38> I still program DOS games in QBASIC. With a free implementation and the minimal emulation stuff to need, it can be done with that way too. If people try to do such thing I can even try to help with such thing too
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20:16:35 <b_jonas> I have made exactly one dos game in qbasic, it's not a very good one, its first two or three level works but then the last level is completely buggy or something because I didn't finish it
20:16:57 <zzo38> I made a lot though
20:17:19 <b_jonas> but I have a couple of non-games
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20:19:21 <zzo38> I also wrote a clone of the entire OASYS text-adventure-game system in QBASIC (this is because I had neither a disk nor a C compiler on the target computer) (it is even compatible with the official implementation too, except for save files)
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20:58:10 <b_jonas> hmmm... actually maybe all four levels work, sort of, and the game can be won, but the guy on the fourth level can shoots big bullets that show up for just one frame and always hit or something.
20:58:31 <b_jonas> he also usually dodges the bullets you fire, but that's a feature.
20:59:23 <b_jonas> also there's no double buffering so the whole thing flickers constantly as the screen is cleared and redrawn
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21:03:19 <b_jonas> hmm, let me try to add double-buffering
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21:09:49 <b_jonas> hmm, it does try to do double buffering, only somehow doesn't work
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22:01:01 <oerjan> (http://www.mezzacotta.net/dinosaur/?comic=128
22:02:37 <ais523> oerjan: huh, I was wondering earlier if mezacotta / lightning made of owls / etc. were still running
22:02:47 <ais523> I guess mezzacotta itself is still running by definition
22:02:56 <ais523> although perhaps it's effectively repeating itself all the time
22:03:09 <oerjan> lightning made of owls is a bit slow, although it's been picking up a little this week
22:03:11 <b_jonas> ais523: there were like four new strips on lmmo this month, but not much before that
22:03:21 <b_jonas> but it's always running in the sense that it accepts submissions
22:03:31 <b_jonas> I should draw some stick figures and submit there too
22:04:09 <oerjan> ais523: however, it's got 2 new comics recently, one of which i just linked to.
22:04:42 <oerjan> the other is http://www.mezzacotta.net/pomh/ which is pretty weird, also unusually _not_ made by DMM at all
22:04:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: luckily, there's a solution: a knife like in http://www.xkcd.com/248/ can get you out of not only a parenthetical or quote, but even a multipart mime file that has a delimiter that was chosen randomly and then you forgot it
22:04:46 <ais523> I haven't even heard of "the dinosaur whiteboard"
22:05:15 <b_jonas> see its about page or something
22:05:21 <b_jonas> http://www.mezzacotta.net/dinosaur/about.php
22:07:20 <oerjan> ais523: also, dmm decided to get on patreon, which was successful enought that he has started making new irregular webcomics
22:07:38 <ais523> but not successful enough that he started making new esolangs?
22:07:51 <oerjan> i don't think he advertised that possibility.
22:08:04 <b_jonas> I think it was quite open-ended about new projects
22:08:27 <b_jonas> https://www.patreon.com/dmmaus?ty=h "Other website diversions - bloggy things, gamey things, arty things."
22:09:17 <ais523> daniel temkin has a blog which I think is mostly looking at the concept of esolangs as an art form
22:09:22 <oerjan> ais523: also, square root of minus garfield is healthy as ever, the average backlog is several months
22:09:49 <b_jonas> what I don't like about his Parteon support thing is that it seems a bit dishonest:
22:10:53 <b_jonas> even with new Irregular Webcomic strips, his most popular project currently is Darths and Droids, and that's the one why people are going to support it, but he specifically doesn't advertise the Parteon donations on the Darths and Droids page because there's a very slim chance Disney might not like that
22:11:50 <b_jonas> also, he started the Parteon donation drive with a news entry saying he "hasn't made a cent" from the comics before, or something, when he's specifically asked for no money, and all support to charity instead
22:11:51 <oerjan> also i find this bizarre http://www.mezzacotta.net/blockandroll/
22:12:00 <b_jonas> ( http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1526.html is a joke of course)
22:12:00 <idris-bot> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1526.html is a joke of course)<EOF>
22:12:38 <oerjan> pretty sure that one is older than darths & droids, anyhow
22:12:48 <oerjan> and older than disney's takeover
22:13:05 <b_jonas> and iwc doesn't use screencaps
22:13:17 <b_jonas> it might have had a few low resolution photos of book covers of course
22:13:37 <b_jonas> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/147.html is quite funny
22:13:49 <b_jonas> no wait I maen http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/108.html
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22:16:49 <b_jonas> Planet of the Hats is still on, but has some breaks when dmm is on a vacation
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22:28:39 <b_jonas> meh, esolangs. I don't need to deliberately create esolangs, because I find so many esoteric corners of langs not intended to be esoteric.
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22:28:56 <b_jonas> I'd like to understand those corners, and use them.
22:30:16 <ais523> b_jonas: you like languages like compile time C++?
22:31:05 <b_jonas> well, not compile-time-only C++, but run-time C++ with a lot of things done in compile time
22:31:17 <b_jonas> but yes, even compile time C++ amazes me
22:31:29 <b_jonas> like that recent stateful constexpr function trick
22:31:59 <b_jonas> that one is crazy and people might even consider it a defect in the standard that should be fixed, I dunno
22:34:10 <ais523> does that trick actually work on compilers?
22:34:22 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know, but I suspect it does
22:34:36 <b_jonas> at least on recent compilers
22:35:24 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, what do you count as "work"
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22:36:00 <b_jonas> anyway, I think it would work fsvo work, but I haven't tested
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22:40:33 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 23h 35m 53s ago: what do you think of smoke's poutinerie twh
22:40:33 <lambdabot> oerjan said 23h 29m 10s ago: NOOO don't leave i cannot interpret your xsampa even with wikipedia :(
22:40:33 <lambdabot> oerjan said 23h 22m 42s ago: My two theories are: (1) you're trying to write bonsoerjan but have no idea what the phonetic symbols mean (2) you're actually using some african click language with a slight misprint on the 0
22:41:23 <boily> shellochaf. never wen't to. apparently very divisive, therefore a must.
22:41:54 <shachaf> boily: there's one a short walk away from where i live
22:42:00 <shachaf> but it doesn't seem to be my thing
22:42:04 <shachaf> but maybe i should try again
22:42:05 <boily> oerjan: I wrote bonsœrjan, with some creatively inserted clicks.
22:42:39 <boily> shachaf: afaik, there aren't any smoke's in Québec. I'd have to go to Ontario.
22:42:48 <boily> coppro: chelloppro. have you ever smoke'sed?
22:43:54 <shachaf> imo you should come visit and have some poutine
22:44:03 <boily> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley,_Ontario ?
22:44:04 <shachaf> there's also one in mont-tremblant hth
22:44:26 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley,_California
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22:46:20 <nys> there's ones around here
22:46:22 <nys> in nova scotia
22:46:34 <nys> well, there's one in halifax at least
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22:51:32 <boily> nyellos. have I ever asked you the The Question?
22:52:57 <shachaf> probably not, so i don't need to update my answer now that i've moved
22:53:23 <boily> no, you never did. you are probably the Most Reluctantest Person about the The Question.
22:53:54 <shachaf> i don't know what my body weigh is
22:54:14 <shachaf> i know what's written on my government identity card, but they didn't actually weigh me, they just believed what i wrote
22:54:30 <shachaf> and i wrote it based on what was written on my previous government identity card
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22:55:56 <shachaf> copumpkin can give you an estimate, maybe
22:56:04 <oerjan> shachaf: so basically it contains your birth weight, right?
22:56:05 <boily> I'll write in you weight as '7 years ago'.
22:56:23 <shachaf> no way, i'm not telling you what's written on that card
22:56:30 <shachaf> you could steal my identity
22:56:55 <oerjan> i'm gonna dress like a baby and pretend to be you on haskell conferences!
22:57:03 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't remember ever being born hth
22:57:14 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, you're going to haskell conferences?
22:57:30 <oerjan> well i'd have to start
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23:02:07 <coppro> boily: no I haven't smoked sed
23:02:19 <coppro> oh we mean the poutine place?
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23:13:33 <Taneb> My arms or kinda sore
23:14:31 <Taneb> (I went climbing this afternoon for the first time in ages)
23:15:18 <boily> coppro: Banquise, then?
23:15:25 <boily> Tanelle. rock climbing?
23:15:43 <Taneb> Yeah, bouldering to be precise
23:17:00 <boily> nice! do you boulder in groups?
23:17:17 <Taneb> I went with some friends, yeah
23:17:23 <Taneb> Probably gonna go back next week, too
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23:18:51 <Taneb> Man, I need to exercise more
23:21:14 <nys> anybody know where vanila went? >.>
23:26:55 <lambdabot> I saw vanila leaving ##crypto 12d 47m 21s ago.
23:27:24 <nys> sounds like a sketchy room...
23:27:45 <oerjan> how can it be sketchy when lambdabot is there
23:27:48 <coppro> boily: Banquise I've had
23:27:54 <shachaf> ##crypto is great because sometimes people join and try to sell bitcoin scams.
23:27:56 <coppro> I also quite like Les Trois Brasseurs' poutine
23:28:19 <shachaf> coppro: Unfortunately those aren't options here.
23:28:27 <Taneb> I'm going to be doing a module in crypto next year
23:28:50 <coppro> shachaf: where is here?
23:28:53 <boily> coppro: my favourite here is the Broue Pub's Poutiflette. it's a mix between a poutine, and a Swiss tartiflette.
23:29:04 <coppro> shachaf: hmm, I imagine it isn't
23:29:16 <shachaf> Smoke's is an option, though.
23:30:14 <boily> coppro: but you should taste my friend's poutineer: you start with a poutine layer, then top it with homemade egg curry.
23:31:01 <HackEgo> Poutine was Pouti and boily's sister until the tragic cheese accident.
23:31:23 <shachaf> poutine is just jammed up french fries
23:31:28 <Taneb> (seriously, what is poutine?)
23:31:49 <Taneb> shachaf, jammed up as in you put jam on them?
23:31:58 <shachaf> usually you don't jam them up with jam
23:32:08 <olsner> hmm, what are "cheese curds" then
23:32:09 <shachaf> but with some sort of gravy
23:32:14 <HackEgo> list/list is a fun program that HackEgo has! Run it with `list and join the fun!
23:32:27 <Taneb> Oooh, it's like chips and gravy
23:32:42 <HackEgo> fentimans/fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack.
23:32:51 <HackEgo> lorem ipsum/Business Internet the it China Product Product NATO
23:33:01 <Taneb> Man, I haven't had any fentimans in ages
23:33:04 <Taneb> Not since like monday
23:33:05 <olsner> oh, it seems to be similar to coffee cheese
23:33:19 <HackEgo> See misspellings of croissant
23:33:38 <shachaf> `? misspellings of croissant
23:33:39 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:34:00 <Taneb> I kind of want poutine now
23:34:04 <Taneb> Except I don't like gravy
23:34:10 <shachaf> Taneb: come to berkeley and get some hth
23:34:26 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm busy until next monday
23:35:17 <shachaf> Taneb: ok next monday then
23:35:18 -!- Lyka has changed nick to Lyka|Away.
23:35:20 <boily> Taneb: real poutine has poutine sauce. it's similar to a light bbq sauce. cheese curds should be fresh, and squeak under your teeth.
23:35:39 <Taneb> boily, hmm, that could work
23:35:39 <shachaf> boily: what does real vegetarian poutine have
23:35:59 <Taneb> shachaf, can you pay my bus fare? I'm a bit low on funds
23:36:10 <Taneb> And other transport costs
23:36:16 <shachaf> Taneb: from the airport? sure
23:36:30 <Taneb> shachaf, but the airport is like all the way on the other side of Leeds
23:37:24 <Taneb> Can you also pay my bus fare to the airport
23:37:59 <boily> shachaf: well... potatoes is vegetarian, sauce is vegetarian, cheese is vegetarian too... I guess you could replace the cheese with tofu, but I doubt it's going to be strong or stringy enough for the poutine mélange.
23:38:12 <boily> ō poutine should do the trick?)
23:38:18 <shachaf> usually poutine sauce isn't as far as i can tell
23:38:47 <boily> grilled flour, paprika, cumin, lots of water, a little bit of ketchup, more paprika?
23:39:00 <olsner> huh, no gravy in the gravy sauce?
23:39:10 <shachaf> "Brown gravy: Traditionally a light and thin chicken, veal, or turkey gravy"
23:39:19 <boily> s/flour,/flour, margarine,/
23:39:31 <boily> poutine sauce isn't brown gravy. it's poutine sauce.
23:39:42 <boily> (tsé, messemble que c't'ivident...)
23:39:54 <shachaf> smoke's has poutine and also vegetarian poutine
23:40:04 <shachaf> and deluxe vegetarian poutine
23:40:12 <shachaf> i had the deluxe but maybe i should try the ordinary
23:40:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:41:08 <pikhq> Might go with a vegetable stock instead in the gravy. That'd *work*.
23:41:24 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that "poutine sauce" is *a* gravy.
23:41:44 <pikhq> If not exactly matching what you'd typically want from a brown gravy.
23:42:04 <HackEgo> languabe/Languabes are edible and fun. They provide a quick implementation energy boost!
23:42:06 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
23:42:09 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
23:42:46 <HackEgo> kallisti/kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity
23:43:00 <oerjan> `learn Fternoon is the time of day when the Danes usually eat their fternooners.
23:43:03 <HackEgo> Learned 'fternoon': Fternoon is the time of day when the Danes usually eat their fternooners.
23:43:03 <HackEgo> ˻<I#2.9j6D5<.(*d⳥^0^d$Һ6GC0:B,@X+k&Q \ .DzΌ:;=Sv[yK2q4f)mង0 \
23:43:35 <shachaf> oerjan: is that the same as brillig? twh
23:43:50 <shachaf> perhaps they eat their fternooners in the wabe
23:45:28 <oerjan> shachaf: no, brillig is English hth
23:46:18 <olsner> I think brillig is fter the fternoon
23:49:06 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/kallisti
23:49:28 <HackEgo> kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity.
23:49:37 <HackEgo> kallisti/kallisti? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:49:49 <olsner> why did `wisdom write that twice?
23:49:58 <oerjan> having no punctuation messes up `learn_append
23:50:03 <shachaf> It's the name of the entry.
23:50:08 <HackEgo> fact/facts are lies. They are not there. Go away!
23:50:15 <oerjan> olsner: because the entry does not need to contain the name
23:50:27 <HackEgo> burlesque/Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque)
23:50:40 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: he faded away?
23:50:43 <olsner> right, but it usually does, and then it looks ugly
23:51:05 <shachaf> How would you have it behave?
23:51:13 <shachaf> Seeing the entry without its name can be confusing.
23:51:18 <shachaf> This format is slashlearn-compatible.
23:51:26 <boily> hellolsner. your last sentence was fungottian hth
23:51:27 <fungot> boily: any questions that we agreed that we ever. robert paul i
23:51:45 <boily> fungot: no, we never have agreed on anything. at all. *wink wink*
23:51:45 <fungot> boily: true. pleasant..
23:51:54 <olsner> slashlearn? I'm out of date with the times, it seems
23:52:01 <oerjan> shachaf: i think the more normal way would be to separate with colon-space
23:52:15 <shachaf> oerjan: but what about entries with colon-space in their name hth
23:53:15 <oerjan> olsner: no regezxes, and _certainly_ no globs.
23:53:18 <shachaf> `? real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download
23:53:19 <HackEgo> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there.
23:55:50 <shachaf> and slashlearn should be fixed to use // too
23:56:03 <HackEgo> rincewind/Rincewind is a wizzard. He likes potatoes.
23:56:18 <HackEgo> password/The password of the month is 'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman'
23:56:44 * oerjan is waiting to see an entry where an s got stripped off a singular.
23:57:25 <HackEgo> chu space/A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
23:57:41 <HackEgo> list/list is a fun program that HackEgo has! Run it with `list and join the fun!
23:57:41 <shachaf> Taneb: want to talk about Chu spaces?
23:57:49 <HackEgo> unicide/Unicide is when people can't read your suicide note because they lack the proper font.
23:57:49 <HackEgo> ananas is the real pineapple.
23:57:56 <olsner> boily: oh, before I forget, what was so fungotty?
23:57:56 <fungot> olsner: " on the street. how do we get you the updated list the employees.
23:57:59 <Taneb> oerjan, there you go, ananas
23:58:02 <oerjan> pardon me boys, is this the chattanooga chu chu
23:58:13 <Taneb> shachaf, I am afraid Chu stole all my memories of Chu spaces
23:58:39 <boily> olsner: I had spontaneous trouble while parsing your sentence.
23:58:53 <olsner> boily: ok, that can happen
23:58:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you're not that hott
23:59:05 <oerjan> Taneb: i meant i was waiting for `wisdom to do it, it's not funny otherwise
23:59:27 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
23:59:28 <Sgeo_> Why does the Windows 95 installer know what NTFS is? (In terms of an error message mentioning it)