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00:20:07 <oren> `1234567890-=qwertyuiop[]\asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./~!@#$%^&*()_+QWERTYUIOP{}|ASDFGHJKL:"ZXCVBNM<>?
00:20:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/1234567890-=qwertyuiop[]\asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./~!@#$%^&*()_+QWERTYUIOP{}|ASDFGHJKL:"ZXCVBNM<>?: No such file or directory
00:21:09 <oren> see. the above has... problems
00:21:40 <oren> Firstly, 0 should be to the left of the other numbers
00:23:11 <oren> Secondly, the letters on homerow are not the most common letters
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00:24:18 <oren> thirdly, ? should be the default and / should be shifted. ? is used a lot more than / in writing
00:24:49 <oren> and similarly, the [] should be where () are and vice versa
00:29:37 <oerjan> dvorak is thataway hth
00:32:20 <boily> /1234567890-=qwertyuiop^çàasdfghjkl;èzxcvbnm,.é\!@#$%?&*()_+QWERTYUIOP¨ÇÀASDFGHJKL:ÈZXCVBNM'"É is the Most Bestest Layout :D
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00:34:41 <boily> it's Canadien Multilingue Standard.
00:35:26 <boily> (technically there should be a dedicated ùÙ key, and àÀ should be to the left of the return key...)
00:36:18 <oerjan> |1234567890+\qwertyuiopå¨asdfghjkløæ'<zxcvbnm,.-§!"#¤%&/()=?`QWERTYUIOPÅ^ASDFGHJKLØÆ*>ZXCVBNM;:_ where i had to press space after a few dead keys hth
00:37:10 <boily> only ^¨ is dead here. other dead keys are on AltGr and ISO level 5.
00:38:18 <boily> |±@£¢¤¬{}[]½¬§¶`~}°{«»µ<>´
00:39:12 <oerjan> yeah plenty more with AltGr
00:39:18 <pikhq> I have a distinct lack of dead keys here.
00:40:15 <pikhq> 1234567890qwertyuiop[]\asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./!@#$%^&*()_+QWERTYUIOP{}|ASDFGHJKL:"ZXCVBNM<>? is truth
00:40:21 <boily> ¹²³¼½¾¸łœ¶ŧ←↓→øþ~æßðŋæßðŋħijĸŀ´zx¢“”ʼnµ―·¡£¤⅜⅝⅞™¿˛ΩŁŒ®Ŧ¥↑ıØÞ°¯˘Æ§ÐªŊĦIJĿ˝ˇZX©‘’♪º×÷˙
00:40:57 <HackEgo> [U+014A LATIN CAPITAL LETTER ENG] [U+0126 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H WITH STROKE] [U+0132 LATIN CAPITAL LIGATURE IJ] [U+013F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L WITH MIDDLE DOT]
00:42:07 <HackEgo> [U+0138 LATIN SMALL LETTER KRA]
00:42:24 <oerjan> `unicode LATIN CAPITAL LETTER KRA
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00:43:01 <boily> you're expecting Unicode to be logical. this is a bad habit you should depart from.
00:43:43 <boily> do you capital letter kra?
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04:21:33 <oerjan> and his friend arthur ditto
04:22:37 <HackEgo> twh/twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
04:22:52 <HackEgo> friendship/friendship wisdom
04:23:03 <HackEgo> heck/Heck is where you end up if you don't believe in Gosh.
04:23:23 <HackEgo> Functors are just morphisms in the category of small categories
04:24:01 <shachaf> What about functors between non-small categories?
04:25:07 <shachaf> I was going to add "(small)" at the beginning, but apparently no one calls them small functors.
04:25:18 <HackEgo> elliott/elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? He is also tire. And a lystrosaur.
04:25:30 <HackEgo> lystrosaur/The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic.
04:26:41 <oerjan> omg you're right he must have invented a time machine
04:27:32 <oerjan> shachaf: synchronicity hth
04:28:17 <HackEgo> logs/I think you might mean !logs
04:28:41 <HackEgo> fukyobrainz/fukyobrainz is yet another brainfuck derivative however with identical instructions.
04:28:58 <HackEgo> hagb4rd/hagb4rd is one spacey fellow. Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
04:29:03 <HackEgo> aah/aah ambiguous acronym here
04:29:34 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/aah //' wisdom/aah
04:30:54 <shachaf> `` mkdir le; ln -s ../bin/learn le/rn
04:30:56 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `le': File exists
04:31:08 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jun 5 04:32 le
04:32:01 <oerjan> `le/rn le/rn may or may not work
04:32:02 <HackEgo> /hackenv/le/rn: line 3: wisdom/le/rn: No such file or directory \ Learned 'le/rn': le/rn may or may not work
04:32:34 <shachaf> oerjan: that was remarkably accurate hth
04:32:47 <shachaf> `le/rn le/rn may and may not work
04:32:48 <HackEgo> /hackenv/le/rn: line 3: wisdom/le/rn: No such file or directory \ Learned 'le/rn': le/rn may and may not work
04:32:55 <oerjan> `` rm le/rn; ls -s ../bin/slashlearn le/rn
04:32:57 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ../bin/slashlearn: No such file or directory \ ls: cannot access le/rn: No such file or directory
04:33:19 <shachaf> ok, i'll admit i'm confused
04:33:37 <oerjan> `le/rn le/rn may or may not work
04:33:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/le/rn: No such file or directory
04:34:18 <shachaf> `` ln -s ../bin/slashlearn le/rn
04:34:24 <oerjan> `le/rn le/rn may or may not work
04:34:43 <shachaf> `le/rn le/rn may and may not work
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04:35:08 <shachaf> ok, what was the difference? twh
04:35:43 <shachaf> i didn't link it to slashlearn
04:36:12 <shachaf> `le/rn le/rn may or may not work
04:37:13 <shachaf> `le/rn le/rn seems to be working rn but it didn't earlier
04:37:31 <oerjan> brains, brittle briny bricks
04:38:07 <HackEgo> xargs/xargs is for piping snowmen.
04:38:17 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯/¯\(°_o)/¯ `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
04:40:26 <shachaf> Is that even accessible with ?
04:40:58 <zzo38> I also put it in so that you can make ``` at front instead of `` if you want it to fix the locale settings
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04:41:45 <HackEgo> export LANG=C; bash -c "$1"
04:41:48 <oerjan> shachaf: well space normally is pretty inaccessible, so it all fits.
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04:45:11 <HackEgo> gazpacho/You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
04:45:17 <HackEgo> coonspirator/A coonspirator is caterpillar silk wrapped in collaborators.
04:46:32 <HackEgo> sgeolang currently is either J or Io.
04:47:25 <shachaf> `? natural transformations
04:47:26 <HackEgo> Natural transformations are just morphisms in the category of functors
04:48:03 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/the category of functors/a functor category/' wisdom/natural\ transformation
04:48:16 <shachaf> `rm wisdom/natural transformation
04:49:06 <oerjan> um what was wrong with the original
04:49:38 <shachaf> just that there's no one category of functors, there's one for every pair of categories
04:50:06 <shachaf> and also saying "X is just a morphism in the category Y" is silly because you define the category Y by saying what X is
04:50:13 <shachaf> and also it didn't seem very wise
04:50:18 <shachaf> but i won't object if you put it back
04:50:29 <shachaf> maybe deleting others' wisdom is rude
04:51:06 <oerjan> well it was supposed to be silly, although "no one category of functors" is a point
04:51:37 <shachaf> well that silliness already exists elsewhere in the wisdom database
04:51:40 <oerjan> you are the categorical expert
04:52:37 <shachaf> I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical / From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical
04:53:44 <oerjan> i'm sorry but you're the very model of an modern ct expert hth
04:54:06 <shachaf> copumpkin is more of a ct expert
04:54:10 <shachaf> and look where that got him hth
04:54:24 <oerjan> isn't he pretty close to you
04:54:50 <oerjan> like in the same city or so
04:55:32 <shachaf> well he's moving a bit closer
04:56:21 <shachaf> that's what the ct expert thing is about, see
04:57:04 <HackEgo> elliot/No one was ever called Elliot.
04:57:33 <shachaf> `learn Eliot invented cats.
04:57:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'eliot': Eliot invented cats.
04:57:42 <oerjan> `slashlearn natural transformation/A natural transformation is a transformation of something containing no chemicals.
04:57:45 <HackEgo> Learned «natural transformation»
04:58:38 <shachaf> well, we got rid of the word "just"
04:59:28 <shachaf> `learn Eliot inveted cats, then Taneb stole his invention.
04:59:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'eliot': Eliot inveted cats, then Taneb stole his invention.
04:59:33 <shachaf> `learn Eliot invented cats, then Taneb stole his invention.
04:59:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'eliot': Eliot invented cats, then Taneb stole his invention.
05:00:16 <oerjan> `learn Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion.
05:00:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'eliot': Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion.
05:00:53 <zzo38> Isn't a category of functors from X to Y when you do Y to the power of X?
05:01:44 <shachaf> What's the definition of power?
05:02:23 <shachaf> What's the definition of the exponent?
05:03:14 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess you can have a monoidal category and talk about the adjoint to (a (x))
05:04:09 <shachaf> Apparently "copower" means "tensor".
05:04:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'copower': Copower rrupts.
05:04:51 <HackEgo> field/There are two kinds of fields. Those where you can divide (except by zero), and those where you can conquer.
05:04:51 <HackEgo> lettuce/Lettuce is a vegetable with two dressings, join and meet.
05:04:51 <HackEgo> heck/Heck is where you end up if you don't believe in Gosh.
05:04:52 <HackEgo> inverness/Inverness is a city in Scotland. The ring road isn't multiplicative.
05:04:53 <HackEgo> morphism/A morphism is just a natural transformation between two functors on 1.
05:05:05 <zzo38> I think you can have addition, multiplication, exponents of categories, and it agrees with the natural numbers (the finite discrete categories being the natural numbers here), such as if you do the category X to the power of 2 it is same as to do X times X
05:07:00 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
05:07:28 <shachaf> `le/rn lord/The way of the Lord is not just.
05:07:58 <zzo38> It is not just what?
05:10:36 <HackEgo> gazpacho/You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
05:10:39 <HackEgo> partial order/A partial order is just a small thin skeletal category.
05:10:45 <shachaf> I might be talking too much.
05:12:23 <zzo38> `le/rn pipe/This is not a pipe.
05:13:38 <shachaf> `le/rn nah/no ambiguity here
05:14:10 <oerjan> `learn Famicom is a famous sitcom from Japan.
05:14:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'famicom': Famicom is a famous sitcom from Japan.
05:17:17 * oerjan does an overoptimistic webcomic check
05:17:17 <zzo38> `? matrix accounting
05:17:18 <HackEgo> matrix accounting? ¯\(°_o)/¯
05:17:29 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
05:19:30 <oerjan> `slashlearn forth/Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
05:20:31 <shachaf> oerjan: i was just thinking of what sort of language would fit in with Go and Forth
05:20:49 <shachaf> then i decided there was none so i gave up hth
05:21:21 <shachaf> also i'm writing Go code these days
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05:25:33 <zzo38> Now you have to fix it
05:26:09 <Jafet> Isn't go used in fungot?
05:26:09 <fungot> Jafet: we signed on the document the events of the financial, project director of the us.
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05:26:24 <oerjan> Jafet: not that i know of
05:26:27 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
05:26:37 <shachaf> oerjan: zzo38 didn't say that you can, only that you have to hth
05:26:58 <zzo38> shachaf: That is correct.
05:27:04 <Jafet> Maybe it's fun that is used in fungot.
05:27:04 <fungot> Jafet: it will you have the power: california department of water and power.
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05:27:14 <oerjan> shachaf: ah. well i commend zzo38 on knowing the difference hth
05:28:12 <shachaf> I have a book that says: "People are trustworthy if they try to do what they say they will do. People are creditworthy if they can do what they say they will do."
05:29:29 <shachaf> oerjan: you still have to fix HackEgo
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05:31:34 <Jafet> According to fungot, you have the power.
05:31:35 <fungot> Jafet: has a wonderful and you guys i recommend the best, if you see on the map of the 10 trading days of the equity and bond markets don't offer refuge.
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05:32:14 <HackEgo> random-word-that-isnt-in-the-wisdom-yet/random-word-that-isnt-in-the-wisdom-yet Uhm... was the binary roujobroken?
05:32:18 <oerjan> Jafet: i don't trust that fungot statement, i've hear california has a drought
05:32:19 <fungot> oerjan: i wan to make. for the enron price target the key the off peak. 25301
05:33:10 <shachaf> oerjan: thanks for fixing it tdh
05:33:10 <oerjan> `rm wisdom/random-word-that-isnt-in-the-wisdom-yet
05:34:24 <oerjan> Jafet: fungot isn't on a very trustworthy style at the moment hth
05:34:24 <fungot> oerjan: to the time of the help of the: ( iii) the number of the my cdnow.
05:34:31 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron* europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
05:34:38 <zzo38> Are you going to add all of the other stuff too?
05:34:41 <shachaf> fungot has an enron style?
05:34:41 <fungot> shachaf: first and foremost you
05:35:36 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
05:36:11 <fungot> oerjan: five winsome girls, from twenty to sixteen: each young man that calls, i say!
05:36:16 <shachaf> i used to confuse enron with http://www.eltron.co.il/
05:37:02 <shachaf> when people talked about enron i thought they were talking about a company that made parking gates and other sorts of automatic doors
05:37:17 <oerjan> shachaf: that's some hideously bad keming tdnh
05:37:38 <shachaf> this was back when people were talking about enron
05:37:58 <shachaf> so i imagine my english wasn't too good
05:38:05 <shachaf> and i was young and foolish
05:38:07 <oerjan> does lt an n sound the same in hebrew tdnh
05:39:56 <zzo38> Are you going to add a wisdom file for "mahjong"?
05:40:27 <shachaf> I'm probably not. Are you?
05:41:22 <zzo38> I don't know what to write
05:41:34 <zzo38> Therefore, I didn't write.
05:43:06 <oerjan> `learn RTF stands for Rich's Text Format, invented by Rich Burlew. In addition to plain text it supports simple stick figures.
05:43:08 <HackEgo> Learned 'rtf': RTF stands for Rich's Text Format, invented by Rich Burlew. In addition to plain text it supports simple stick figures.
05:43:17 <shachaf> oerjan: these kinds of gates: http://www.eltron.co.il/img/0389/340.jpg
05:43:26 <oerjan> oh wait you said RDF, never mind.
05:43:52 <zzo38> That's OK; now you have the one of RTF too.
05:44:01 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/: Permission denied
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05:53:49 <Jafet> I had a double take at this email title: "Your help is desperately needed for Nigerian refugees"
05:54:03 <zzo38> It describe on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Graph what a RDF graph is, therefore you can make up something funny of it and make up a funny guess what the letters "RDF" is stand for, such as recursive acronym or whatever else it is.
05:54:05 <Jafet> (it was an email newsletter from the UNHCR)
05:56:16 <oerjan> Jafet: might wonder how many spam filters it got caught in
05:56:51 <zzo38> Can you define "planar graph" without geometry?
05:57:02 <Jafet> Sure, use kuratowski's theorem.
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06:26:45 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
06:35:17 <zzo38> Why it should be illegal?
06:38:54 <shachaf> I don't think cats should be illegal.
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07:22:02 <fungot> mroman_: " only but frogs," said he, " for i never was so happy before," though why these two children who had never been so nearly choked in all her life.
07:23:35 <mroman_> zzo38: I'm guessing Rwandan Defence Forces
07:31:52 <mroman_> Why exactly did C89 disallow mixed declarations?
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08:31:23 <olsner> I would guess that it's so that stupid compilers can generate the function prologue and lay out the stack before generating any function code
08:32:30 <int-e> Oh that. Yeah, same guess here.
08:33:55 <olsner> blocks can declare variables though, so I'm not sure it's limited enough to actually help such a compiler
08:34:25 <mroman_> well a compiler could move declarations to the top anyway
08:35:02 <mroman_> ideally you'd scan the function body for declarations
08:35:14 <olsner> you mean it would parse the whole function first? do you have enough RAM to do that?
08:35:46 <mroman_> I would have in fact just parsed the whole file into an AST :)
08:35:53 <int-e> mroman_: does the term "single pass compiler" mean anything? remember that computers at the time had preciously little memory.
08:36:04 <mroman_> Yeah I know single pass compilers.
08:36:36 <mroman_> they'll produce rather inefficient code thoguh
08:37:38 <int-e> which is why real programmers wrote their code in assembly language
08:38:27 <zzo38> I still do use assembly language if writing the program for Famicom
08:38:37 <HackEgo> Famicom is a famous sitcom from Japan.
08:38:43 <int-e> compiled languages were (and to a great extent still are) a trade-off between time and space consumption of the executed code on the one hand, and managability and maintainability of the source code on the other.
08:39:12 <shachaf> zzo38: Wouldn't you use e.g. Japanese for writing the programme for Famicom?
08:39:41 <zzo38> The message on HackEgo is just a joke; Famicom is a computer machine
08:40:07 <int-e> oh I should add portability to that list
08:40:08 <mroman_> I have written an ugly one pass compiler once
08:40:26 <zzo38> The other purpose of compiled languages such as C and so on is to make it (at least partially) portable to compile on other computer too
08:40:32 <int-e> mroman_: was it for brainfuck?
08:41:04 <zzo38> (That's one reason I use C; it can then compile for other computer too)
08:41:05 <shachaf> FAMICOM IST DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE?
08:41:55 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/SZEZcEei
08:41:56 <olsner> the real german word is COMPUTER
08:42:19 <shachaf> That's the real English word too.
08:42:24 <mroman_> just look at all those push pop instructions it generated :D
08:42:28 <olsner> no, the english word is computer, not COMPUTER
08:43:12 <shachaf> English is case-insensitive.
08:44:05 <mroman_> I didn't even generate move instructions :) push r0, pop r1 was generated if a value was needed in another register :D
08:45:11 <int-e> shachaf: I guess you could call it a Rechenmaschine
08:45:28 <mroman_> a * b was compiled as pop r1, pop r0, mul r0, r0, r1; push r0;
08:45:33 <int-e> I've seen the CPU called a "Rechenwerk".
08:45:42 <int-e> mroman_: looks legit
08:46:24 <zzo38> MagicKit assembler uses two passes; I made an extension which allows an optional third pass (although the third pass isn't reading the input file, but is rather executing code in an area that has been set aside for this purpose)
08:46:32 <int-e> (I suppose this happens when you have a stack machine as intermediate representation and don't bother to write a register allocator, for example because that's kind of hard.)
08:47:24 <mroman_> That way you can very easily compile it in a single pass
08:47:42 <zzo38> mroman_: You could do optimizations when writing them out though? (Such as keeping track of pattern to match)
08:48:04 <zzo38> (These still aren't best kind of optimizations, but at least it would be something.)
08:48:13 <mroman_> There are some very easy optimizations that could be done
08:48:22 <mroman_> like replacing push r0; pop r0; with nothing
08:48:30 <mroman_> and push r0; pop r1; with mov r1, r0
08:48:41 <shachaf> German seems like it would be so much easier to learn than Finnish.
08:49:26 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/qXSBIAiW <- but looking at the source code I don't want to have anything to do with that compiler anymore :D
08:50:49 <mroman_> I just directly emit code when ever a bison rule is matched :)
08:51:42 <mroman_> "| KEYWORD_IPROCEDURE IDENT { printf(".label _%s; iproc\n", $2); } KEYWORD_IS statements KEYWORD_END {"
08:53:42 <zzo38> You might be able to use a second parser which does optimization
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08:54:27 * int-e wonders whether zzo38 has anything to do with attribute grammars
08:55:24 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/ZbkyphzQ <- that's the language it compiles
08:55:57 <mroman_> obviously all locals need to be declared before the function body :)
08:57:45 <mroman_> with syntax highlight the language doesn't even look too bad
08:58:39 <mroman_> http://fmnssun.ibone.ch/rhailargue/string.rl.html
09:00:26 <mroman_> (Obviously there are only two data types: register and byte.)
09:00:54 <mroman_> (althought technically everything is untyped and just assumed to fit into a register)
09:01:25 <mroman_> (but for read/write accesses you can specify @BYTE or @REG prefixes)
09:02:38 <mroman_> zzo38: the project is dead ;)
09:03:29 <mroman_> Nobody had interest in the project.
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09:07:03 <mroman_> That's what happens when yo do theses (is that the plural of thesis) without an industry partner but with the university as your partner
09:07:24 <mroman_> There's no real interest behind projects without partners from the outside world :D
09:08:12 <mroman_> BF commands are replaced with digits 0-9
09:08:24 <mroman_> but the Quine he shows doesn't even contain any digits but just brainfuck instructions?
09:10:23 <mroman_> and run as a brainfuck program it seems to output only non printable characters
09:14:59 <mroman_> maybe I'm reading something wrong :(
09:21:53 <fizzie> I think the numbers refer to raw byte values.
09:22:24 <fizzie> Because the output of the program starts "03 03 01 03 03 03 03 03 03 03 01 ..." and that matches the start of the quine code.
09:27:47 <mroman_> He uploaded a file x-chromosomes that isn't used anywhere o_O
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09:31:50 <mroman_> pollen count is so high right now it affects people without pollen allergies as well.
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10:50:23 <mroman_> also... summer sucks as a heliophobic.
10:51:11 <fizzie> At least you're not above the arctic circle. (I guess?)
10:51:48 <boily> mrhelloman_. one form of therapy is exposing you to multiple suns at the same time to help you with you phobia hth
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11:14:15 <mroman_> JPA Strings default to VARCHAR(255)
11:14:53 <mroman_> (Hint: When using JPA always check the schema it generates, because otherwise you will have Bugs you didn't think of
11:15:08 <mroman_> when suddenly your app crashes when storing Text longer than 255 characters)
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11:57:05 <mroman_> By how much can you slow down a video without a viewer noticing?
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12:01:09 <mroman_> Instead of stopping hard you slow down the video ever so slightly as to "gather time" for the buffer to refill
12:03:15 <int-e> There probably isn't a general answer to this. For example, consider a music video on one hand and a slow pan over a city on the other.
12:14:24 <mroman_> You could annotate sequences that can be slown down.
12:14:56 <mroman_> or you could annotate where it is possible to introduce some mini-breaks
12:15:08 <mroman_> like when a movie shows a blank screen for a scene switch
12:15:17 <mroman_> that blank screen can easily be extended for a few milliseconds I guess.
12:17:28 <b_jonas> mroman_: I don't think it's worth to slow down the video to catch up with buffering
12:17:45 <b_jonas> mroman_: if the download is too slow, then that won't help much in the long term
12:17:50 <b_jonas> you'll eventually have to halt
12:17:58 <b_jonas> so this can be possible but I don't think it's practical
12:18:05 <mroman_> well there are cases where you pre-buffer for about a minute
12:18:15 <mroman_> and mid-movie you need to stop and pre-buffer for another minute
12:18:28 <mroman_> dynamically slowing the video down a bit could prevent that from happening
12:19:07 <b_jonas> those kinds of things are because the download stops or the speed slows down very much, because some point of the network (possibly an endpoint) gets slow
12:20:19 <mroman_> if buffering speed is just about playing speed and then suddenly starts to slow down
12:20:29 <mroman_> you have to halt eventually if you keep playing at the same speed
12:20:37 <b_jonas> I don't think that's common
12:21:30 <mroman_> Of course, you can always just increase download speed :D
12:21:45 <mroman_> but it sounded like something at least interesting to experiment with.
12:22:15 <mroman_> why solve the traffic problem if you can just build wider roads
12:22:54 <mroman_> although that is a different topic.
12:23:19 <mroman_> well.. except for transmitting diseases busses are probably not that *cool*
12:23:35 <mroman_> you're better of travelling in your own car when it comes to that.
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12:37:19 <mroman_> png 25 (12.89%) 3097 (28.44%) 123
12:37:38 <mroman_> when you have a PNG coder in your project and most lines of code are in PNG.
12:38:12 <mroman_> this stat tool should do some basic binary file detection
12:38:55 <mroman_> hm. at least there are 1.4k lines of assembly code
12:47:12 <mroman_> what makes more sense in terms of priorities
12:47:41 <mroman_> or infix > prefix > postfix?
12:48:26 <mroman_> where Prefix+ is increment, postfix ! is faculty and infix + is addition
12:50:26 <mroman_> and ! infix would actually be array access
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12:52:57 <mroman_> !a!!b could be almost anything. (!a)!(!b) if prefix > infix
12:55:46 <mroman_> although if postfix > infix as well
13:01:54 <mroman_> I thought Parsec wouldn't like any of those :(
13:07:49 <mroman_> how do I tell parsec to parse that as (!a)!?
13:13:32 <mroman_> now it loops forever on just "a"
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13:30:41 <mroman_> ok. I have my system now :D
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13:43:36 <mroman_> .!,~a!2! would be the faculty of the bitwise negated second digit of the length of a
13:48:04 <mroman_> *Main> runParserWithString parseExpression ".!,~a!b!"
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13:56:08 <mroman_> which means Factorial and/or Faculty :)
13:59:23 <mroman_> 1,1,3,12,20,120,840,6720,60480,151200
14:01:40 <lambdabot> n!/6.[1,4,20,120,840,6720,60480,604800,6652800,79833600,1037836800,145297152...
14:04:59 <mroman_> Why don't governments just use a tax system like
14:05:08 <mroman_> They state how much money they need for a given period
14:06:08 <mroman_> all citizens together earn 6000 dogecoins a year
14:06:48 <mroman_> someone who earns 60 dogecoins a year therefore pays 0.01% of what the government wants
14:07:55 <fizzie> Possibly because taking 10 dogecoins out of the income of someone earning 60 dogecoins is felt to have a different proportional effect than taking 1000 from soneone earning 6000.
14:08:03 <mroman_> in theory you could have to pay more than what you earnt
14:08:50 <fizzie> (Also I think your 0.01% was off by two orders of magnitude.)
14:09:28 <fizzie> 60/6000 is a fraction of 0.01. 0.01% is a fraction of 0.0001
14:09:55 <mroman_> That's why I'm only good in math subjects that don't involve too much numbers.
14:10:41 <mroman_> let's assume there's one really rich person
14:10:46 <fizzie> Anyhow, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax
14:11:28 <fizzie> It's just 1000/6000 (as in, 1/6th) out of everyone's income.
14:12:22 <fizzie> And I think people generally argue that taking 1/6'th out of the income of someone at the poverty line is different from taking 1/6'th out of someone earning lots of money, even though it's the same fraction.
14:12:42 <fizzie> But I'm sure you can find people saying that progressive taxation is bad too.
14:12:54 <mroman_> depends on how progressive
14:13:10 <mroman_> You can do stupid things like uhm
14:13:17 <mroman_> People earning less than 50000 pay 5%
14:13:24 <mroman_> people earning less than 70000 pay 8%
14:13:57 <mroman_> although 5% isn't realistic of course :)
14:16:14 <fizzie> That's why it's generally "X % for income from 0 to A; Y % for income from A to B; .." and so on. Although I've heard of the "you lose money by earning too much" situations.
14:17:28 <mroman_> crap this really is 1/6 out of everybody
14:17:47 <fizzie> That's because you can take the /6000 out of the parens and put it under the 1000.
14:18:07 <fizzie> (x/6000)*1000 = x*(1000/6000).
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14:18:37 <mroman_> fizzie: but instead of making "hard borders" you could have something more gradual perhaps?
14:19:06 <mroman_> meaning 40000 pay 4%, 70000 pay 7%
14:19:31 <mroman_> but of course, you'd have to consult how many people earn how much first
14:19:45 <mroman_> because at the end of the day if the tax system can't cover the governments spending it's a bad tax system anyway
14:22:00 <mroman_> are there countries with value-added-taxes only?
14:22:03 <mroman_> that would be interesting.
14:22:49 <fizzie> I wonder if there are any places that have differentiable function instead of tax brackets. I've only been exposed to the UK and Finnish systems, both of which have brackets. (Although the Finnish system never really talks about the brackets -- they're used to compute the overall marginal rate, but other than that it's just the single percentage you usually see.)
14:23:30 <fizzie> Both also have a non-empty bottom bracket with a 0% tax rate (aka tax-free income allowance).
14:24:54 <fizzie> They're even vaguely the same magnitude. (£10600 vs. 16500€ ~> £12000)
14:26:04 <mroman_> income tax here is around 5%
14:26:22 <fizzie> That sounds pretty low, compared.
14:26:28 <mroman_> well, it's not the only tax
14:26:49 <mroman_> you pay taxes to the government
14:27:14 <mroman_> the local tax is somewhat around 120% of the income tax
14:27:39 <mroman_> so if you have 5000 fed tax, you pay 6000 local tax, meaning all in all the gov gets 11000
14:28:02 <mroman_> so roughly 1/8 of your salary goes to taxes
14:28:31 <mroman_> well 1/8 of the salary you get after taxes by your employer
14:28:39 <mroman_> which takes away another 1/8 :)
14:28:47 <fizzie> One difference between the UK and Finnish systems seems to be that while in Finland the state and muncipal taxes are all part of the same tax reporting and deduct-directly-from-salary system, here only the UK-wide HMRC tax seems to go from the salary, and there's a separate "Council Tax" you pay monthly as a separate thing, based on where you live and what sort of apartment you have.
14:28:58 <mroman_> meaning if you earn 6000 a month 4500 will be at your dispense
14:30:21 <mroman_> there's also the yearly "Personalsteuer" but that's a fixed amount
14:31:28 <mroman_> how much is the Council Tax?
14:31:48 <mroman_> on average for a usual not-very-rich but not-very-poor person?
14:31:56 <fizzie> It's not income-based at all.
14:32:14 <fizzie> It's based on which "council tax band" your apartment is in.
14:32:23 <mroman_> and what's the most common council tax band?
14:32:40 <fizzie> AIUI, the council tax band assignments are based on some decades-old valuation that is completely disconnected from reality.
14:32:54 <mroman_> and how much is that most common tax band?
14:32:56 <fizzie> But it's generally "more expensive place -> higher council tax", so I guess it's correlated with income.
14:33:27 <fizzie> I have no idea, but not terribly much. Less than £100/month.
14:34:10 <fizzie> I don't know if there's some transfer of money from the state to the local authorities, or how it works. I'm new here.
14:35:31 <fizzie> From what I've heard, the council tax rates vary quite wildly on which council you're in.
14:35:59 <fizzie> Apparently the average in London in 2008 was £1268 a year, so a bit over £100.
14:36:21 <fizzie> Ranging from £680 to £1490 for "band D".
14:38:16 <fizzie> Apparently the other bands are fixed ratios (from 2/3 to 2) of band D.
14:46:27 <lambdabot> LOWI 051420Z 06006KT 010V120 9999 FEW065TCU SCT070 32/15 Q1019 NOSIG
14:47:49 <lambdabot> LSZH 051420Z VRB02KT CAVOK 31/16 Q1020 NOSIG
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15:18:29 <zzo38> How many computer program doing audio-related stuff define tau instead of pi?
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15:57:11 <zzo38> I don't like defining tau by circles though; I prefer: e^(i tau)=1
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16:17:17 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, the entire significance of that formula is that complex exponentiation is rotation
16:19:07 <zzo38> You can define e^x by a infinite series, and if you put complex numbers in, that is what it makes. One significance of such series is you can calculate the derivative to also be e^x.
16:21:01 <zzo38> So, it doesn't seem circles
16:21:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean that's true but then you're just saying stuff about arbitrary infinite series
16:22:05 <Phantom_Hoover> you need the link to exponentiation and trigonometry for the identity to actually be meaningful
16:23:22 <zzo38> It isn't completely arbitrary; it has d(e^x)=e^x dx
16:24:24 <shachaf> You still haven't said what d is. :-(
16:25:02 <zzo38> It is a derivative operator
16:25:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oh, all this time i'd been thinking it was the cellular boundary
16:26:38 <zzo38> The dx is the derivative operator which is already applied
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16:32:36 <zzo38> The "d" by itself is not something that is in use by itself (although Euler's differential operator can be used by itself if you pay attention properly!)
16:33:17 <zzo38> I don't know what is the type of d. Maybe I can figure out but I haven't done yet
16:38:56 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, did we not have this discussion like 2 weeks ago
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16:40:04 <Phantom_Hoover> there is a well-defined differential operator and it's usually written D, but it's not the same as liebniz notation
16:41:05 <zzo38> You can't use "d" by itself but it is possible to use "D" by itself, is what I said
16:42:04 <Phantom_Hoover> it also obviously doesn't have a type because most mathematics doesn't use type theory
16:43:09 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but I don't remember getting a clear answer.
16:43:25 <shachaf> As I remember it zzo38 was saying that it was more than convenient notation.
16:44:11 <zzo38> Yes, but the notation d^2y/dx^2 for the second derivative is wrong.
16:44:34 <shachaf> I convinced myself that it made sense once.
16:45:28 <zzo38> If you actually write d(dy/dx)/dx and then to try to calculate it properly, you will see what it actually adds up to.
16:45:31 <shachaf> And I don't necessary mean "type" in a completely formal way.
16:45:39 <Phantom_Hoover> the idea is that you write (d/dx) for the differential operator
16:45:55 <shachaf> "what sorts of things does it turn into what sorts of things?"
16:46:33 <shachaf> And if it's just convenient notation, why does it seem to work so well?
16:47:20 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, although the (d/dx) is really Euler's "D" operator; it is just written as d/dx for convenience because Dy=dy/dx (if derivatives are taken with respect to x) for example.
16:48:33 <shachaf> 17:19 <ski> dylukes : let's assume we have `y = g(x)', and want to compute `d f(x,y) / d x'
16:48:36 <shachaf> 17:20 <ski> dylukes : interpreting this as a partial derivative, it really means `let y = g(x) in d f(x,y) / d x'
16:48:39 <shachaf> 17:20 <ski> dylukes : while interpreting this as a total derivative, it really means `d (let y = g(x) in f(x,y)) / d x'
16:49:11 <shachaf> Anyway I don't know any sort of infinitesimals where that really works.
16:49:28 <zzo38> They don't look like infinitesimals to me, even though they are often called that.
16:51:10 <Phantom_Hoover> the infinitesimals for which it works are the completely nonformal handwavy ones
16:51:36 <shachaf> In "f(x) + df(g) / dx", the x in f(x) and the x in g(x) are different xs
16:51:56 <shachaf> df(x)/dx is both a binder and a consumer of x
16:56:11 <zzo38> That is because the x here is a variable
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16:57:19 <shachaf> What does it mean that \int dy/dx dx = \int dy?
16:57:22 <zzo38> If it is a constant then it is dividing by zero, and of course you cannot divide by zero.
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17:13:20 <zzo38> If C represents a constant, then: \int(2xdx) = \int(d(x^2)+0) = \int(d(x^2)+dC) = \int(d(x^2+C)) = x^2+C
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17:16:37 * int-e hopes he hasn't just made oerjan's and elliott's job harder...
17:19:58 <int-e> zzo38: shouldn't the constant be introduced when evaluating \int(dt), say \int(dt) = t + C ?
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17:20:48 <zzo38> int-e: I suppose that is the other way too.
17:28:17 <zzo38> But, isn't dt=d(t+C) anyways?
17:28:55 <int-e> Isn't that the point...
17:29:36 <int-e> I mean, because dt=d(t+C), the "inverse" \int should return a result modulo addition of a constant, and that's usually denoted by the + C part.
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17:53:42 <zzo38> What way can you get a pseudo-random number from a floating-point number as input?
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17:54:32 <int-e> ...discard the number...
17:55:58 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/221/
17:56:30 <zzo38> No I mean such that f(x)=noise and is always the same noise, and if you do f(-x) then you get the reversed noise
17:58:45 <int-e> sorry, but you almost never define what you need precisely enough to give sensible answers.
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18:27:23 <oren> If you want something done properly you have to compile the program yourseld
18:27:36 <shachaf> What are some good characterizations of the reals?
18:28:47 <oren> I thought the one by spivak in 'Calculus' was pretty convincing
18:29:13 <shachaf> I want characterizations other than "complete ordered field" or even anything related to numbers.
18:29:26 <shachaf> E.g. http://mathoverflow.net/q/92206
18:29:36 <oren> Oh. well poop, I dunno
18:33:22 <oren> that one with the closed points is pretty cool I have to say.
18:39:01 <oren> so we're then defining the reals as (0,1] x Z?
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18:44:32 <shachaf> `le/rn the reals/The reals are a complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. They are universally useful in homotopy.
18:49:27 <shachaf> pikhq: are you moving to mountain view twh
18:50:01 <pikhq> shachaf: If I get the job (which seems really likely at this point), yes.
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18:56:56 <HackEgo> The reals are a complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. They are universally useful in homotopy.
18:57:36 <Taneb> I am not sure about "universally"
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19:02:45 <shachaf> pikhq: What did you think of your interview?
19:03:08 <shachaf> Apparently during my interviews they did a bunch of things they weren't supposed to do.
19:03:25 <shachaf> My favorite part of it was that they let me choose what one of the interviews would be about.
19:03:48 <pikhq> The interviews were just a bunch of fun challenges; I had a pretty good time.
19:03:48 <shachaf> I can't tell whether that's standard.
19:07:03 <pikhq> The recruiter gave me a choice of two options for one of them.
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19:08:06 <pikhq> My impression is that the interviews went spectacularly.
19:08:23 <pikhq> And the recruiter afterwards told me that all the interviewers said the same, so there's that.
19:09:15 <pikhq> So, no guarantees but it really does sound likely that I've got it.
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19:09:53 <shachaf> Hmm, do you remember your interviewers' names?
19:10:03 <shachaf> You probably shouldn't say that in here anyway.
19:10:13 <pikhq> And even if I did I distinctly remember only hearing first names anyways.
19:10:30 <pikhq> And it's *incredibly* unlikely that first names are unique in the Googleplex. :P
19:11:33 <shachaf> Anyway it's less unlikely that they're unique in the SRE interviewer pool.
19:12:07 <pikhq> Less unlikely they're unique.
19:12:39 <shachaf> I just mean that there are many fewer people in a position to interview you than Google employees overall.
19:13:00 <pikhq> Not that many SREs overall?
19:14:26 <int-e> hmm. reals are cutting edge in the field of rational numbers
19:16:57 <HackEgo> Comonads are just monads in the dual category.
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19:23:42 <int-e> Hmm, mroman could easily be confused with the dual of a cormoran.
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19:36:26 <int-e> fun. with data Color = R | B and data Tree a = E | T Color (Tree a) a (Tree a), T R E E E is an actual (technically, I'd prefer the root to be black) valid red-black tree
19:45:18 <int-e> (Okasaki has an exercise to implement a linear time fromOrdList for red-black trees, which turned out to be more interesting than expected)
19:49:10 <Taneb> `learn codensity is just mass per volume with all the arrows reversed.
19:49:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'codensity': codensity is just mass per volume with all the arrows reversed.
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20:19:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FlogScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43161&oldid=42039 * 63.232.95.4 * (+0) /* Operators and builtin functions (very incomplete list) */ 7 5 * should equal 35
20:20:35 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/p5BSuZDj
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20:31:06 <Lyka> can anyone see me?
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20:48:40 <HackEgo> mockingbird/mockingbird is watching you.. closely! Is it mocking you? Probably.
20:48:41 <HackEgo> vanila/In a cruel twist of fate, vanila has come to #esoteric in search of wisdom.
20:48:44 <HackEgo> for further details for futher details./See `? for further details for futher details.
20:48:44 <HackEgo> egobot/EgoBot is my arch-nemesis.
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21:10:56 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
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21:54:56 <Taneb> Oh man, I have been home for one day and 8 hours and I have finished my book :)
21:55:09 <shachaf> Taneb: do you want more books
21:55:35 <Taneb> shachaf, unfortunately my book was volume 1 of the 2 volume edition of A Dance With Dragons, so I would like that book
21:56:13 <shachaf> what if you read other books instead
21:56:17 <Taneb> I am borrowing them from one of my housemates in York
21:56:28 <Taneb> But York is like 90 miles away
21:57:17 <shachaf> Weren't you coming here to have poutine?
21:58:00 <Taneb> I think I can make poutine in York relatively easily
21:58:07 <Taneb> What is in poutine sauce?
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21:59:52 <zzo38> Now you have to add a wisdom file for "anywhere" too
22:00:29 <shachaf> Taneb: that sauce can vary quite a bit
22:00:37 <shachaf> it all depends on what you want to poutine it
22:02:07 <Taneb> Also how does poutine differ from cheesy chips with gravey
22:03:34 <shachaf> for one it isn't made with chips
22:04:35 <shachaf> well in hebrew they're called chips, actually
22:06:20 <Taneb> I don't think cheesy crisps would quite work
22:06:59 <Taneb> Well, it's dangerously close to nachos
22:07:33 <shachaf> smoke's poutinerie has nacho poutines
22:08:01 <shachaf> with salsa, sour cream, jalapeño peppers, and guacamole
22:08:12 <shachaf> somehow it seems dishonest
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23:03:20 <oren> poutines also often have vin aigre
23:04:38 <oren> Also I grew up calling them chips. The truck that sells them is called a chip truck
23:05:07 <oren> I guess in England they call it a chip lorry?
23:07:12 <oren> Are web cookies called web biscuits in England?
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23:22:09 <zzo38> Do any terminal emulators you can put a DLE code (or some other code) before any byte to cause it to always emit it as a character (in the PC character set, for example)?
23:25:08 <zzo38> There are a few VT100 graphics which aren't also in the PC set, although many terminal emulators do not seem to support these VT100 graphics anyways
23:25:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know of any terminal that's capable of doing that, but on the linux console I think you can define any mapping from characters of the terminal to characters in the VGA charset, and you can even use that mapping as the secondary mapping (which is by default the vt100 graphics)
23:26:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, I think some line printers have such a code
23:28:23 <b_jonas> plus I think that's a two-level translation
23:29:13 <zzo38> I did do that; while it does allow accessing all of the characters it is a bit messy to do, because something internally causes it to get mixed up and therefore you need to activate the G1 set and then emit the high characters and the internal encoder will somehow then sometimes select the ones that were previously inaccessible
23:30:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, for the linux console, you can try writing directly to /dev/vcsa*
23:31:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: in my font, all the glyphs in the low control characters also appear somewhere on non-ascii unicode value, so you can use those
23:32:21 <b_jonas> I think that might be possible on the linux console in unicode mode too
23:32:52 <b_jonas> accessing the characters as mapped from high unicode values after setting the terminal to utf8
23:34:03 <zzo38> Better way would be to just use a prefix code to access PC characters; otherwise you get ASCII and VT100 characters only
23:40:08 <oren> Dwarf fortress appears to simply output unicode
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23:50:07 <zzo38> The Swiss Ephemeris testing program uses Unicode for the degree sign (it also has no option to use the current date); I made a shell script to use sed to change the Unicode degree sign into the VT100 degree sign (as well as to fill in the current date by default).
23:50:26 <zzo38> (I could have changed the source-codes and recompiled it, but I didn't bother to do that.)
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23:51:42 <zzo38> Those are two problems with Swiss Ephemeris to be aware of if anyone else is going to use them!
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23:58:02 <zzo38> The computer I can SSH into has no mail or C compiler or man pages or whatever, but from there it is possible to SSH to the computer that does have it. Both computers do share user files though. Do you know why? I don't know why they made it like that!