00:00:38 <tswett> Actually, I don't think you really have to do that with ByteByteJump.
00:00:57 <tswett> But if you want to add or multiply two bytes in ByteByteJump, you have to do it using a lookup table.
00:02:28 <tswett> I was forgetting that ByteByteJump allows you to break up a word into its component bytes.
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00:09:11 <shachaf> `learn nitia is the creator of all things. The BBC invented her.
00:09:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'nitia': nitia is the creator of all things. The BBC invented her.
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00:29:28 <zzo38> Do you know what /HNAP1/ and /TEADevInfo/ are?
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00:36:51 <Sgeo_> "Unicode® 9.0.5, Supplementary Private Use Area A, Block U+F3000..U+F37FF, "People Who Are Also Code Points Somehow""
00:42:50 <zzo38> People are also code points?
00:43:28 <tswett> The best known example is probably Bill Clinton, U+F3202.
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01:04:59 <Sgeo_> Hardware or software problem? If hardware, my advice (that I got from others yelling at me) is to stop using it until ready to recover all data
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01:10:47 <Sgeo_> Hardware or software problem? If hardware, my advice (that I got from others yelling at me) is to stop using it until ready to recover all data
01:11:25 <shachaf> Sgeo_: Are you a hardcore PC gamer yet?
01:12:38 <Sgeo_> Most games I play these days don't use the GPU that extensively, and the one thing that will next year (Oculus Rift CV1) requires a GPU more powerful than the one in this expensive machine :(
01:19:51 <hppavilion1> I already took it to the geek squad and they couldn't fix it
01:20:22 <hppavilion1> Or more accurately, couldn't recover the data
01:20:38 <hppavilion1> Luckily I've been saving EVERYTHING on github
01:27:50 <Sgeo_> Including passwords?
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01:55:37 <Sgeo_> Even the passwords? Especially the passwords!
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02:25:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ASCII art/mandelbrot]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43257 * Esowiki201529A * (+2850) Created page with "<pre> .; '^e ._\ ..."
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03:25:43 <tswett> Hey everyone, I think I might have stumbled upon the most important truth of the universe.
03:25:55 <zzo38> Are you sure there is such a thing?
03:26:43 <zzo38> Do you know how to write it down, what is what you believe is most important truth of the universe? (If so, then probably it isn't, but mention it anyways)
03:27:11 <shachaf> zzo38: Why probably it isn't?
03:27:22 <Sgeo_> Hardware advice: Do the opposite of any hardware advice I give.
03:28:16 <zzo38> Well, that's just my opinion though. Don't let that to stop you from trying to figure out such things.
03:28:30 <tswett> Lemme try to state one aspect of it.
03:30:03 <tswett> All meaningful beliefs (regardless of whether or not they're mathematically well-defined) amount to a belief in the existence of an instance of a given class of phenomena.
03:30:08 <tswett> Furthermore, this point of view is useful.
03:31:04 <tswett> Of course, I have no right to claim that this point of view *actually is* useful. It kinda feels that way, but I have no evidence or arguments backing this feeling up.
03:31:06 <shachaf> I.e. is it true that everything exists, or that there are some things that exist and there are other things that don't exist?
03:31:54 <tswett> I'd say the former. There's no such thing as a "thing that doesn't exist".
03:32:31 <shachaf> Raymond Smullyan talks about it in _5000 B.C._
03:35:55 <zzo38> Don't be so sure...there is the kind of physical existence, and mathematical existence, and multiverses, and whatever; and then when you come to "GOD exists" it is such unclear what "existence" even is here (as well as what "GOD" even is here, but that's not the point).
03:36:19 <nys> reminds me of reading spinoza
03:36:44 <shachaf> Is "GOD" different from other capitalizations?
03:37:33 <zzo38> I do that way to hope to make it clear to me at least, because I am panendeist and not like many other people's idea of "God" anyways, so I make it full caps
03:38:23 <zzo38> (I am not even an ordinary panendeist either really, I suppose...?)
03:43:32 <tswett> Y'know what, pretend I said "occurrence" instead of "existence".
03:45:35 <zzo38> Do you mean: "... a belief in the occurrence of an instance ..."?
03:52:07 <Sgeo_> What non-meaningful beliefs exist in the wild?
03:52:54 <tswett> Beliefs that have false presuppositions would be one example.
03:53:14 <tswett> Suppose someone believes, for no reason, that they have a daughter, and that their daughter has red hair.
03:53:37 <tswett> The belief that their daughter has red hair is non-meaningful, because they don't have a daughter.
03:53:57 <tswett> Then again, that belief, though meaningless, *does* amount to a belief in the occurrence of an instance of a given class of phenomena.
03:54:06 <tswett> That class of phenomena being "redness of hair".
03:54:18 <tswett> Or maybe I should say "rednesses of hair".
03:54:33 <zzo38> But you didn't even say about meaningless belief, so I suppose it can be OK in case some do.
03:54:40 <Sgeo_> So the meaningfulness of a belief can hinge solely on the truth-value of another belief? I'm not sure that makes sense
03:54:57 <zzo38> Sgeo_: I am not so sure either, actually...?
03:55:29 <tswett> Anyway, I'm gonna slink back into my channel and revolutionize philosophy.
03:56:05 <zzo38> OK, write some more book about philosophy.
03:56:52 <zzo38> One book I have about philosophy, one thing it says, someone said you can write a serious philosophical text consisting entirely of jokes. And they also said you can write a serious philosophical text consisting entirely of questions (without answers).
03:57:08 <zzo38> At least first one I know is possible because it has been done (the Principia Discordia).
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05:13:47 <zzo38> He who lives by the sword, dies by the gun. He who lives by the gun, dies by the _______
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06:57:35 <Taneb> I need to sort out my life
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06:57:45 <Taneb> I don't tend to do anything until I get really frustrated
06:58:50 <Taneb> Like, "why the hell am I still in bed?" or "why the hell have I not shaved in three weeks?"
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07:39:19 <oerjan> @ask tswett Just to clear something up, are you physically larger than the average person twh
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07:54:52 <HackEgo> XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR? ¯\(°_o)/¯
07:55:17 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
07:55:37 <oerjan> `cat wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
07:56:20 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> oerjan: what's all this <-- I don't remember hth
07:57:16 <oerjan> `hg log wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
07:57:19 <HackEgo> hg: unknown command 'log wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR' \ Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ d
07:57:34 <oerjan> `` hg log wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
07:57:35 <HackEgo> changeset: 5014:66f6a5ade413 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Oct 02 04:37:09 2014 +0000 \ summary: <oerjan> echo \'Who told you this?\' >wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
08:02:22 <HackEgo> The password of the month is 'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman'
08:02:36 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/password
08:02:39 <HackEgo> mroman oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_
08:04:47 <oerjan> @tell shachaf Actually, it was the password. Ask mroman_.
08:06:33 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/'irrelevant info'
08:06:34 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 10485760 Apr 15 07:51 wisdom/irrelevant info
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08:16:46 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Applicative f, Choice p) => Int -> p a (f a) -> p String (f String)
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08:35:43 <J_Arcane> I have shaved a sheep. https://twitter.com/J_Arcane/status/612890396985831424
08:35:50 <oerjan> <int-e> (but it had survived for 55 months) <-- shachaf can be so brutal :(
08:37:34 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
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08:40:03 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> oerjan: why didn't you tell me twhh <-- (1) i didn't realize (2) it was your program (3) i don't really know awk hth
08:41:23 <HackEgo> nitia is the creator of all things. The BBC invented her.
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09:58:39 <mroman_> World War Z was a very disappointing movie.
09:59:28 <mroman_> I thought it was just recently in the cinemas... but it appears to be from 2013 o_O
10:00:21 <fowl> World War Z (2013) - IMDb
10:00:55 <fowl> nice movie sense
10:01:16 <mroman_> It mixes up things in time.
10:03:28 <fowl> outside of what you presumed, when you experienced it you judged it correctly :D
10:04:04 <fowl> zombie outbreak yet brad pitt catches 4 flights crashes and survives all of them
10:05:04 <mroman_> super fast walking zombies
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10:06:00 <mroman_> They are supposedly "undead".
10:06:29 <mroman_> undead should be a synonym for "alive".
10:07:23 <mroman_> How to make somebody undead: Infect the person with rabbies and make it not feel pain
10:07:24 -!- hjulle has joined.
10:07:48 <mroman_> People infected with rabbies behave really cool
10:09:04 <mroman_> and it can lay dormant for 5 years
10:09:44 <mroman_> unlike the zombies in World War Z in which zombification happens in a matter of seconds.
10:12:34 <fowl> did you just wake up from hypersleep?
10:12:41 <fowl> there was supposed to be a guy to greet you
10:13:04 <fowl> was that my job
10:14:12 <mroman_> Are you often in #esoteric?
10:14:54 <fowl> i dont know why im here
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10:19:23 <mroman_> I remember watching Fast & Furiuos 7
10:20:00 <mroman_> and I remember it as pretty boring
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10:39:01 <oerjan> <mroman_> It mixes up things in time. <-- do you remember things from the future? inquiring minds want to know!
10:39:21 <boily> hellørjan. mroman_'s a time-travelling agent?
10:40:39 <oerjan> boily: his memory is disconnected from time
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10:41:11 <HackEgo> No one was ever called Elliot.
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10:41:37 <HackEgo> Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion.
10:41:37 -!- izabera has joined.
10:41:41 * oerjan doesn't know where elliott is either...
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10:43:09 <oerjan> `Learn Eliott completes the set of stupid spellings.
10:43:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Learn: not found
10:43:14 <oerjan> `learn Eliott completes the set of stupid spellings.
10:43:17 <HackEgo> Learned 'eliott': Eliott completes the set of stupid spellings.
10:44:04 <boily> haven't seen him in a while.
10:44:20 <boily> @ask elliott where do you happen to be at hth
10:44:41 <oerjan> afaik he's not been on freenode at all for a while, so lambdabot is unlikely to help
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11:05:21 <b_jonas> "We provide source code distributions in a variety of archive types. Generally, speaking, Windows users should download .zip files. Users of all other operating systems should download .tar.gz or .tar.bz2 files." -- huh, why would I do that? if it's mostly source code, the .bz2 files will be 60% the size of the .zip files, I won't download zips even on windows when the bz2 is there.
11:06:07 <myname> because windows users need a program to extract tar.bz2 that isn't typically there?
11:06:27 <b_jonas> it's there. it's among the first thing I install, ever.
11:06:51 <b_jonas> and if I want to download this source code thing from the internet, I may as well download 7z first
11:07:01 <scoofy> well, >you< install it.
11:07:33 <scoofy> how much do you pay per MB of bandwidth?
11:08:06 <b_jonas> scoofy: the bandwidth doesn't matter, but my disk space isn't free, and I won't recompress everything I download
11:08:22 <scoofy> how much do you pay for disk space per MB? $0.02 ?
11:08:51 <b_jonas> no, it's a company machine, disk space there costs much more than on my home machine
11:09:30 <scoofy> do the company charge you extra?
11:10:04 <b_jonas> and I have like four gigabytes of installers, many of them large tarballs or zips of a hundred megabyte size, though they're mostly binaries, not source code
11:10:43 <b_jonas> mind you, the compression probably matters only for those few very large installers, not these small ones
11:10:51 <b_jonas> so for these ones I could get the zip
11:11:18 <scoofy> http://img.izismile.com/img/img3/20100923/640/ancient_computer_ads_640_high_08.jpg
11:12:47 <scoofy> a 8GB pendrive costs $5 on ebay
11:13:30 <b_jonas> sure, the kind that's slow and unreliable. storage costs much more when you want it fast and redundant with backups.
11:14:48 <scoofy> well, you don't get something for nothing
11:15:09 <scoofy> for redundancy, you'd need 2 pendrives. that'd be $10.
11:16:03 <scoofy> or Google Drive, gives you 15 GB storage for free.
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11:18:33 <b_jonas> don't be ridiculous, I have 700 gigabytes of data just on this workstation, half of it hard to reproduce video data, I need real hard disks, fast and reliable, not pendrive junk
11:19:45 <b_jonas> those cost about 128 EUR per two terabyte disk
11:20:04 <b_jonas> (that's an approximate prize, not an offer)
11:20:23 <b_jonas> (imagine "not for sale" written accross the image in red letters)
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11:25:28 <scoofy> "Average Cost Per Gigabyte" - year 2014: $0.03
11:25:39 <scoofy> http://www.statisticbrain.com/average-cost-of-hard-drive-storage/
11:26:20 <scoofy> and you whine about some 1MB installer being .zip and not .bz2
11:26:34 <b_jonas> it's not some 1 MB installer. I said I have 100 MB installers.
11:26:37 <scoofy> s/installer/source package/
11:26:40 <b_jonas> the 1 MB installers don't matter
11:26:58 <scoofy> so... if 1 GB HDD storage costs $0.03, then.... 100 MB installers storage cost is.. $0.003
11:27:04 <scoofy> less than the price of a chewing gum
11:27:41 <scoofy> and you have 2 terabyte disks anyways, to store your 700 GB of videos
11:27:54 <b_jonas> no, twice as much, the "average cost per gigabyte" is made up mostly of unreliable or slow hard disks, or hard disks bought in hundreds for data centers in which case they get it cheaper
11:28:07 <scoofy> okay, sorry. then it costs $0.006
11:28:23 <b_jonas> nah, 400 GB of videos locally on this workstation, there's more on the big servers
11:28:33 <b_jonas> the other 300 GB is not videos but miscellaneous data
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11:29:11 <scoofy> anf you have "like four gigabytes of installers"
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11:29:21 <scoofy> so that's <1% of all your data on your local workstation
11:29:50 <scoofy> calculating with double of 'average price of HDD per gigabyte', that'd cost you $0.24 in storage
11:32:08 <b_jonas> no, not less than 1%, because I have about 4 gigabytes of installers total
11:32:23 <scoofy> and you have 400 GB of videos. 4 GB is 1% of 400 GB
11:32:32 <scoofy> but you have 400 GB of videos and 300 GB of other data, that's 700 GB
11:33:01 <scoofy> 1 GB out of 700GB, is 0.14%.
11:33:43 <scoofy> 4 GB out of 700 GB, that's 0.57%.
11:34:15 <scoofy> if your total storage is 2 TB, then 4 GB installers consume 0.2% of your total storage.
11:34:35 <scoofy> if your 2 TB storage cost 128 EUR, then 0.2% of 128 EUR cost 0.25 EUR.
11:34:52 <Jafet> Average cost per gigabyte of mirrored, backed-up, network-attached storage is more like $0.1 per month
11:37:36 <Jafet> Looks like amazon s3 goes with $0.03 (not including backup)
11:37:48 <scoofy> so, b_jonas's 4 GB of installers mirrored, backed-up, network-attached storage cost would be $0.4 per month.
11:38:46 <scoofy> adding 100 MB to it increases monthly cost by $0.01 per month, or one cent per month.
11:39:33 <Jafet> Maybe. Note that unpacking the source tarball is going to use the same amount of space at any rate, so whatever
11:46:19 <mroman_> Don't modern filesystems use compression anyway?
11:47:15 <scoofy> some may do, but afaik it's optional, not by default
11:47:38 <b_jonas> mroman_: no, at least not by default because that would be slow, and definitely not the kind of strong compression that would recompress a zip archive to a bz2 archive
11:48:09 <b_jonas> it can't be the default because it's often slow
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11:48:38 <mroman_> you can configure it per folder
11:49:02 <b_jonas> mroman_: sure, but most large files that make sense to be compressed are compressed anyawy
11:49:03 <Jafet> That's the only "modern filesystem" in common use that does
11:49:19 <b_jonas> like I said, 400 gigabytes of videos on this workstation, and those are all compressed
11:49:32 <b_jonas> much of the rest of large data is compressed too
11:49:40 <b_jonas> yes, not by the filesystem, but in a lossy way
11:50:56 <mroman_> Undoubtedly trying to compress already compressed audio/video files probably won't do much
11:51:30 <mroman_> and things that would benefit from compression is usually very small and HDDs today are huge
11:51:33 <b_jonas> mroman_: well, I've seen messed up video files where it would help, but yes
11:52:02 <scoofy> most multimedia formats dont' compress well (because, already compressed usually)
11:52:02 <mroman_> but I'm not sure if you could get some extra compression if you do it not on a file basis
11:52:08 <mroman_> but on a more global basis
11:52:17 <mroman_> such as HDD sectors and what not
11:52:17 <scoofy> textfiles compress well
11:52:20 <Jafet> Well, SSD firmwares have tried to do data compression. That experience has shown us all why it's generally a bad idea
11:52:21 <scoofy> and are usually small.
11:53:06 <scoofy> some file systems allow mounting a .zip or .tar.gz
11:53:07 <Jafet> (File sizes become unpredictable, and compression code is complicated and buggy, adjectives you don't want in a filesystem or block device)
11:54:24 <scoofy> example: "TrueZIP is a Java based virtual file system (VFS) which enables client applications to perform CRUD (Create, Read, Update, Delete) operations on archive files as if they were virtual directories, even with nested archive files in multithreaded environments"
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11:55:59 <Jafet> That sounds terrible for performance
11:57:43 <mroman_> there's also some google userspace fs based on google mail or something
11:58:02 <mroman_> also on my windows there's this weird cloud folder
11:58:38 <scoofy> well, compression always decreases performance. there's no free lunch
11:59:06 <Jafet> There is no way to update a file in a zip archive in place
11:59:20 <scoofy> yet they do it somehow.
11:59:45 <Jafet> You need to either move all the later files, or append the new file to the end and leave a hole in the archive
12:00:01 <olsner> if a file size changes you can insert a comment between it and the next file
12:00:18 <Jafet> Yes, but not if the size increases
12:00:32 <scoofy> then you leave a hole and append at end.
12:00:34 <Jafet> (Hmm, maybe you can move some of the other files to the end?)
12:00:40 <scoofy> and if you write another, smaller file, then you fill the hole.
12:02:33 <mroman_> which is what filesystems do anyway :)
12:02:39 <Jafet> Yes, that is terrible for performance because it can lead to unbounded fragmentation
12:02:55 <Jafet> No, filesystems allocate files in blocks
12:03:05 <scoofy> Jafet: just like with traditional filesystems.
12:03:13 <scoofy> modern ones fragment less
12:03:46 <scoofy> (but can lead to other problems, like ext4 delayed allocation can cause data loss if there's a power outage)
12:04:12 <scoofy> Jafet: so filesystems waste an entire block, even if you write 1 byte :)
12:04:25 <Jafet> That's still bounded (and internal) fragmentation
12:05:09 <scoofy> maybe trueZIP defragments .zip files.
12:05:24 <scoofy> like how you defragment disks in windows...
12:05:43 <fowl> Y'all heard of 3d fractals?
12:05:52 <Jafet> (Even very old filesystems, such as the ones in Version 7 Unix, use block allocation for files)
12:06:10 <scoofy> no one said the contrary.
12:06:33 <Jafet> Well, you can't do that with zip archives.
12:06:55 <mroman_> punch card file systems ftw
12:07:44 <scoofy> what would be the point of 'allocating blocks' with zip archives? the point of zip archives is files to be small, not to waste an entire block even for a tiny file
12:07:50 <scoofy> so it'd defeat its purpose
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12:08:29 <Jafet> Indeed, so treating a zip archive like a filesystem is inherently a bad idea
12:08:33 <mroman_> some FS let you configure the cluster sizes
12:08:47 <mroman_> depending on if you have a lot of small sizes or a bunch of huge files
12:08:50 <scoofy> Jafet: when it's read-only, it's actually not a bad idea
12:09:01 <fowl> You guys talking about physfs?
12:09:36 <mroman_> cp foo.tar.gz/toextract.txt ./
12:09:47 <fowl> Some fuse fs could do it
12:09:53 <mroman_> you wouldn't need this weird tar util anymore
12:10:10 <Jafet> Actually, most modern filesystems just inline small files into the inode or squash multiple files into one block
12:10:51 <scoofy> zcat foo.tar.gz >toextract.txt
12:13:08 <Jafet> Even though tar uses ascii, I don't think that's normally what you want
12:14:07 <scoofy> that normally implies ASCII
12:14:28 <Jafet> It does not normally imply that an entire tar file is inside it, though.
12:14:47 <scoofy> okay, then zcat foo.gz >toextract.txt
12:16:20 <Jafet> In that case, you might as well use gunzip -c which actually does unpack gzip files (as opposed to zcat which may not work with gzip format on some systems)
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13:15:54 <shachaf> oerjan: I thought you realized. Never mind.
13:16:17 <shachaf> oerjan: I was mostly wondering why a wisdom/ entry inaccessible with `? exists.
13:16:28 <shachaf> mroman_: Apparently you know?
13:17:04 <shachaf> oerjan: you should create a better entry for nitia twh
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13:41:56 <shachaf> `cat wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
13:42:42 <mroman_> We have asked the mighty machine for the password
13:42:54 <mroman_> and the password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
13:43:00 <mroman_> yet, it couldn't say what for.
13:45:28 <b_jonas> mroman_: that's impossible. there's only one Q tile, and words longer than 15 letters can't fit on the board
13:45:57 <mroman_> > length "XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR"
13:46:09 <mroman_> 15 doesn't exist in the 2^n system
13:49:42 <HackEgo> You should start the crossword over.
13:55:18 <shachaf> mroman_: but it's inaccessible with `? tdnh
14:02:22 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 6h 23m 3s ago: Just to clear something up, are you physically larger than the average person twh
14:02:39 <tswett> @tell oerjan Yes (due primarily to lean mass).
14:05:33 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 9m 13s ago: <shachaf> oerjan: what's all this <-- I don't remember hth
14:05:33 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 47s ago: Actually, it was the password. Ask mroman_.
14:05:33 <lambdabot> oerjan said 5h 25m 30s ago: <shachaf> oerjan: why didn't you tell me twhh <-- (1) i didn't realize (2) it was your program (3) i don't really know awk hth
14:06:06 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't really know awk either and i thought the program was matching on <> because i'd already forgotten how it worked hth
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14:28:11 <HackEgo> XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:28:42 <mroman_> Since we don't know what it's for.
14:29:21 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/XQ*: No such file or directory
14:29:29 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.
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14:31:21 <mroman_> shachaf: That's probably because ? does a lower-case
14:31:37 <mroman_> and the file is upper-case
14:32:03 <mroman_> naturally, the password is upper-case
14:32:09 <mroman_> so making it lower-case would be totally wrong
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14:55:00 <HackEgo> XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:55:04 <tswett> `cat wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
14:56:14 <tswett> I feel like I was planning to say or do something.
14:58:51 <mroman_> not as cool as playing video games while dissociating
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15:06:51 <HackEgo> oerjan shachaf shachaf tswett oerjan oerjan oerjan hppavilion1 shachaf tswett oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman oerjan oerjan shachaf shachaf shachaf oerjan shachaf orenn orenn ais523 shachaf shachaf tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf hppavilion1 hppavilion1_ coppro ais523 Taneb oerjan tswett orenn shac
15:08:00 <coppro> pikhq: how do I make your country stop being terrible?
15:08:32 <rdococ> by stopping it from existing
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15:11:13 <tswett> Man, dissociated gaming is the best.
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15:21:29 <vanila> https://esolangs.org/wiki/ASCII_art/mandelbrot
15:23:02 <vanila> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gibberish/JavaScript/HTML_interpreter I find spam here
15:23:22 <vanila> unless yunpan is not spam
15:33:57 <rdococ> that's not spam, it's just the authors of those articles have trouble communicating in english
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15:34:17 <rdococ> and on behalf of that person, I feel offended.
15:42:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Table]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43258&oldid=43241 * Rdococ * (+50) /* Arithmetic */ isn't Table code...
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16:27:57 <vanila> make a TC esolang that uses every chinese kanji for a different thing, and is not turing complete if any one character is removed from the language
16:30:31 <myname> it would be hard enough for every number from 0 to 9, wouldn't it?
16:30:59 <vanila> espelically if oerjan is around
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16:59:57 <b_jonas> what's the name for good features where you had to implement nothing for the feature to work, it just fell out from the rest of the design?
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17:01:20 <b_jonas> an example I'm fond of is quantity control in eye drops. no matter how much liquid you get into your eyes from an eye drops, the right amount will remain in your eyes and the extra will flow out on the bottom because your eyes just can't hold it. so the quantity is entirely self-regulating, and the container doesn't have to do anything for this.
17:01:35 <b_jonas> as a result, the only way to take too much eye drops is if you use it too frequently.
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17:02:11 <b_jonas> (there are some ways to take too few eye drops, or the wrong type, or use it when you shouldn't use it at all of course)
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17:41:42 <FreeFull> b_jonas: It's because eyes have their own lubricating system built in
17:42:15 <FreeFull> And given people cry sometimes, that has to drain properly
17:42:35 <b_jonas> FreeFull: yes, but it's free for the eyedrops
17:43:27 <Jafet> If you didn't do anything for a feature, is it your feature?
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18:32:45 <shachaf> pikhq: When did you say you're moving here?
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18:35:45 <ais523> I just rebooted because the network adapter was malfunctioning
18:35:55 <ais523> and remembered to check the parent PID of Abiword this time
18:36:21 <vanila> i tohught ubuntu is using systmed
18:36:21 <ais523> I have the feeling that upstart is upset that this is a systemd system now
18:36:28 <ais523> but it's using upstart too somehow
18:36:31 <ais523> and when upstart is being upstart, not init
18:36:37 <ais523> it's just utterly craz
18:36:47 <vanila> maybe you can delete upstart
18:36:49 <ais523> either that or this is some sort of malware pretending to be upstart
18:36:57 <ais523> but I don't get why malware would open abiword
18:37:06 <shachaf> ais523: Are you sure nitia didn't start it up?
18:37:49 <ais523> upstart's parent is /usr/sbin/lightdm (running as root, not ais523)
18:38:08 <ais523> and lightdm has caused problems for me too
18:38:25 <shachaf> I think all lightdm does is run your desktop environment thing.
18:38:57 <ais523> well, the only time the boot failed
18:39:01 <ais523> lightdm was involved somehow
18:39:08 <ais523> it tried to start for about 30 seconds, gave up
18:39:13 <ais523> and then did a clean shutdown of the system
18:40:23 <ais523> but up until now I hadn't made the connection that lightdm = gdm equivalent, not metacity/compiz equivalent
18:41:16 <coppro> I've never heard of lightdm behaving like that
18:42:08 <ais523> coppro: well you can easily blame systemd, or even plymouth (I was reading the messages that boot, which might be related)
18:47:03 <pikhq> Next couple weeks or so?
18:50:00 <tswett> b_jonas: there's the phrase "happy accident", but that's sort of informal.
18:50:50 <tswett> Maybe you should call it an "accidental feature".
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19:02:40 <oerjan> is there an international campaign to outlaw subwoofers i think twh in this building
19:02:54 <lambdabot> tswett said 5h 14s ago: Yes (due primarily to lean mass).
19:04:12 <shachaf> international campaign to outlaw subwoofers in oerjan's building
19:04:46 <shachaf> subwoofers are terrible. worse than dogs.
19:04:56 <ais523> dogs are just regular woofers
19:04:58 <shachaf> unfortunately dogs are p. good so that's not saying v. much
19:12:43 <nortti> https://medium.com/relevant-stories/rel-chapter-1-907ff616bf80
19:13:23 <shachaf> Maybe I was mixing you up with nitia.
19:13:35 <shachaf> Because I thought that was a real nick or something.
19:14:17 <shachaf> nitia created a bunch of files in the HackEgo repository.
19:15:06 <shachaf> It makes up people like nitia and estin
19:15:31 <Jafet> Is that URL supposed to be relevant?
19:15:52 <nortti> no, that url is irrelevant, but on relevant
19:16:40 <nortti> that json-based lang they created seemes esoteric-y
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19:18:58 <int-e> shachaf: I thought we have to ping fizzie or elliott for that
19:19:34 <nortti> it's no longer run by gregor?
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19:20:04 <Jafet> This looks like one of those languages that should have remained esoteric
19:20:07 * int-e wonders how the esolangs.org takeover is going
19:22:45 <vanila> this 100% looks like a esolang
19:23:11 <vanila> its actually worse though
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19:28:45 <vanila> this stupid thing for TC JSON
19:28:50 <vanila> that CA thing for TC CSS
19:29:00 <vanila> we get a full stack of tc languages
19:29:23 <fowl> "_RETURN":{"_MATH":"{foo}+{var}"}
19:29:32 <fowl> The function “_MATH”, from the above example, parses a string into a mathematical expression and returns its result.
19:29:48 <vanila> I wonder what happens if you want to name something starting with an _
19:29:55 <fowl> sounds better than javascript
19:30:27 <oerjan> <int-e> shachaf: I thought we have to ping fizzie or elliott for that <-- Gregor, not elliott.
19:30:41 <tswett> This is the sort of programming language that you invent by accident.
19:30:55 <zzo38> Macro-RDF for TC RDF
19:31:07 <shachaf> oerjan: it seems to me that pinging any of those three is about equally effective hth
19:31:27 <Jafet> Just make sure to use sendmail for mailing your webapp's users and you're good to go
19:33:59 <zzo38> [ :return [ :add _:foo, _:bar ] ]
19:33:59 <j-bot> zzo38: |syntax error
19:33:59 <j-bot> zzo38: | :return[ :add _:foo,_:bar]]
19:34:17 <zzo38> I don't care if it is syntax error, that's fine with me
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19:42:01 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: it seems to me that pinging any of those three is about equally effective hth <-- that is true. although elliott isn't even on the network.
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19:54:12 <shachaf> fizzie has disappeared into the google black hole hth
19:57:46 <zzo38> Finally, here it is.
19:58:38 <oerjan> =HackEgo> danddreclist 64: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
19:59:13 <oerjan> of course shachaf is the only one actually here...
19:59:32 <shachaf> I stopped reading danddreclist a while ago.
20:01:01 <oerjan> ais523: hey, you could modify thutubot to link to HackEgo instead of lambdabot that would help >:P
20:01:10 <zzo38> Do you still want your name on their though or do you want to remove it afterward?
20:01:36 <ais523> oerjan: it's not like thutubot's been online in ages
20:01:41 <b_jonas> I have a crazy idea. I think it wouldn't be too difficult to build a sort of distributed vcs layer over svn,
20:02:14 <oerjan> if we only had an exploit to actually get HackEgo to reconnect...
20:03:17 <b_jonas> where you can create branches that track a remote svn repostiroy, and you can fetch to and push to it, and it could even be very compatible with ordinary svn in the sense that you could use ordinary svn for any operation that's within a repository.
20:03:54 <b_jonas> As long as you don't mind it being not as efficient with disk space and caches as a first-class distributed vcs.
20:03:58 <shachaf> b_jonas: There are several versions of this already, aren't there?
20:04:06 <b_jonas> And I think it wouldn't even be very difficult to build such a thing.
20:04:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't know of any. I've seen several that can *pull* but not push.
20:05:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: I'll have to look at git-svn because I'm not too familiar with it, but I think that's not what I want
20:05:40 <b_jonas> Well, I'll have to look at git-svn anyway, because people praise it, even if it's not for this.
20:06:02 <b_jonas> But anyway, I'm not completely sure this is possible, and how hard it is, I'm still trying to figure out the details.
20:06:31 <b_jonas> But if I decide it's not very difficult, I might even try to write such a thing myself, because I like subversion and I'd totally use something like this.
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20:09:19 <b_jonas> I like subversion because it is designed well, it has a good interface, and keeps improving all the time.
20:09:57 <zzo38> I don't know much about working of Subversion
20:10:25 <coppro> b_jonas: but it's a CCVS
20:11:21 <zzo38> Which is meaning what?
20:11:25 <b_jonas> coppro: what does that mean?
20:11:40 <coppro> centralized version control system
20:11:51 <b_jonas> coppro: yes, and that's exactly the problem this would fix
20:12:48 <coppro> why do you want a cnetralized system to begin with, though?
20:13:54 <b_jonas> coppro: I said above, because svn is designed and implemented well, it has a good interface, and keeps improving so I get new goodies but all compatibility with every minor version upgrade,
20:14:13 <b_jonas> and also existing people are using svn so I could use this to existing svn repositories.
20:15:01 <b_jonas> Really, I like svn, and I think many people who don't like it don't like it because they've got their impressions from older versions of svn (especially ones before 1.5) which weren't as good as current ones are.
20:15:10 <zzo38> I don't seem to have Subversion in my computer though
20:15:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can probably install.
20:15:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: the executable is called svn , if you want to check if it's already on
20:15:48 <zzo38> I did check that, I don't have it on Cygwin.
20:16:01 <b_jonas> and the homepage is http://subversion.apache.org/ which tells you how to install
20:16:16 <b_jonas> oh, I don't know cygwin, I don't know if there's a cygwin version
20:16:21 <b_jonas> but there's a native windows version
20:16:50 <b_jonas> svn is quite portable, they develop it so it works well on windows (unless it's version old versions of windows) as much as that's possible
20:17:00 <zzo38> I don't need a Cygwin version; I just checked there because if I had it, that is where it would be.
20:20:30 <b_jonas> (and when I said it would be compatible with svn, imagine the disclaimer that that's as long as all the repositories and svn servers are svn 1.5 or later)
20:20:44 <b_jonas> (but using svn older than that is a bad idea anyway)
20:22:50 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: I thought you realized. Never mind. <-- i realized what the nitia entries were but not that it was due to a bug in your program
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20:38:37 <b_jonas> Also, if someone made something like this, it might count as esoteric enough for this channel.
20:40:51 <FireFly> nitia is my favourite user
20:42:04 <ais523> who is this nitia person anyway?
20:43:19 -!- nortti has changed nick to nitia.
20:43:21 <oerjan> ais523: it's hard to demonstrate without HackEgo tdnh
20:43:46 <ais523> ah, is that the only place it comes from?
20:43:56 -!- nitia has changed nick to nortti.
20:44:15 <oerjan> oh someone actually nicked to it...
20:44:44 <ais523> -NickServ- Information on nitia (account nortti):
20:51:08 <b_jonas> I'm still using rsync -e "sudo -u" as a convenient way to copy files between users
20:51:33 <ais523> b_jonas: sudo cp; sudo chown?
20:51:47 <b_jonas> ais523: no, that requires root
20:52:00 <b_jonas> this works even between two non-root users if I have sudo permissions
20:52:05 <ais523> actually, the method I use when retrieving read-protected files from nethack4.org is to get the destination user to make an a+r copy
20:52:14 <b_jonas> I don't want to use root when I don't have to, even if I have root access, to avoid mistakes
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22:22:02 <HackEgo> olist 991: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
22:22:25 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:30:57 <tswett> A French word, pronouned /o/.
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22:52:54 <FireFly> how's it going? what's up? how's life?
22:58:11 <shachaf> are we living the same life
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