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00:09:46 <tswett> Arright, now rustc is giving me a .a file instead of a .so file.
00:10:36 <tswett> But the linker complains that it can't find the boot_main symbol, and sure enough, there's no boot_main symbol inside the kernel.o in the .a file.
00:19:05 <tswett> Wooooo. I think I probably got it to find boot_main, because now it's outputting too many error messages to fit in my backscroll.
00:38:36 <HackEgo> glumgot/glumgot is not a particularly bad swear word, but is still disquieting.
00:53:44 <HackEgo> flagpole/A flagpole is like a tadpole, but with a flag on top.
00:53:53 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle.
00:54:15 <HackEgo> A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole.
00:54:22 <HackEgo> whatchamacallit? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:54:49 <tswett> `le/rn whatchamacallit/A whatchamacallit is like a thwackamacallit, but less painful.
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01:11:39 <HackEgo> eliot/Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion.
01:12:05 <shachaf> tswett: too much symmetry tdnh
01:12:52 <tswett> Well, "is like" is a symmetric relation, and "more" and "less" are inverse relations.
01:13:20 <tswett> Hm, last night I think I was thinking about... the... category of commutative monoids?
01:13:48 <tswett> For that category, the sum and the product are the same thing, right?
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01:43:54 <oren> well, that was productive day... spent half the day struggling to get a VPN to connect
01:44:56 <Wallacoloo> I spent my entire Tuesday trying to get an LED to turn on.
01:49:31 <boily> have you tried turning it off and on again?
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01:51:08 <oren> well eventually it worked, I think they may have had to reboot the other end, in California
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01:51:45 <oren> or something. Someone in California solved it, at any rate
01:58:24 <Sgeo> I saw a thing about branch prediction, what's the best thing to learn to learn about things like that
02:09:11 <zzo38> Enchanted creature gets -1/+2, can block any number of creatures, and gains "At the beginning of your upkeep, target opponent draws a card".
02:35:57 <zzo38> I read in some book recently they mentioned they could make computers that are next to each other to communicate by temperatures.
02:39:33 <Wallacoloo> zzo38: seems like there would be quite a bit of latency.
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02:50:25 <tswett> Whelp, my kernel doesn't boot yet.
02:50:38 <tswett> I can tell qemu to boot using this ISO, but it says it has no bootable media.
02:57:52 <tswett> xorriso says that it's an El Torito image.
03:01:39 <tswett> "xorriso : NOTE : Detected El-Torito boot information which currently is set to be discarded"
03:06:47 <zzo38> I don't know if the problem might have to do with extension for threading discussions? (I don't like that extension anyways and just use plain MediaWiki on my own user talk page)
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03:22:32 <Sgeo> Fun fact: Windows 95 CD is not bootable
03:22:59 <Sgeo> Fun fact: I would insert a factorial function here, but that joke is probably overplayed
03:23:07 <Wallacoloo> Sgeo: What are you supposed to do with the CD then?
03:23:25 <Sgeo> Wallacoloo, run setup.exe from an existing DOS install
03:28:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Ttml]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43348 * Zzo38 * (+127) Created page with "What is the codes of Greek, Cyrillic, math symbols? --~~~~"
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04:00:56 <shachaf> Did you solve the VPN problem in California today?
04:01:17 <pikhq> No, I'm still in St Louis.
04:01:27 <pikhq> A storm killed my cable modem.
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05:09:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43349&oldid=43339 * Esowiki201529A * (+30) /* See also */
05:14:20 <fowl> pikhq im in north county, dem nados went just south of us
05:15:25 <pikhq> fowl: And I'm in South County, where they went just north of us.
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05:26:54 <zzo38> Probably the same things done with Gentzen esolang you can also do by writing it like ordinary sequent calculus notations. But, it is also can be done other way around too.
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05:42:44 <shachaf> oerjan: i missed yesterday
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05:45:47 <shachaf> oerjan: you got away with it this year
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06:01:45 <zzo38> Because it doesn't.
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07:49:10 <Taneb> Awww, there is no fungot
08:00:17 <Taneb> Wow, I haven;t been on IRC for a while
08:00:22 <Taneb> Not since last Friday morning I think
08:01:42 <int-e> so how much have you forgotten?
08:02:25 <Taneb> How to speak italian, how to get a good night sleep, that sort of thing
08:02:31 <Taneb> Also the weather here is TOO NICE
08:02:58 <Taneb> It is 5 past nine in the morning and already 21 degrees Celsius!
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09:21:51 <mroman_> that could be a good challenge :)
09:22:04 <b_jonas> mroman_: you mean golf? we've had two or three golfs for that
09:24:58 <Taneb> Is "delete" a reserved word in Java?
09:38:30 <mroman_> const and goto are reserved words
09:38:50 <mroman_> assert is not a reserved word in early java versions but is in current version
09:38:57 <b_jonas> "delete" is a reserved word in C++, "del" is a reserved word in python, and "delete" is a builtin function in perl.
09:39:30 <mroman_> Early java versions didn't have enum as well
09:39:50 <b_jonas> but the "delete" stuff is very tricky, exactly because of what http://magiccards.info/uh/en/10.html demonstrates
09:40:24 <b_jonas> it's a word you need very often, for multiple contexts. there's two or three good synonyms: "delete", "remove", "erase", but even that's not enough
09:40:59 <Taneb> Unfortunately, it is a reserved word in Thrift, which I am using to generate Java :(
09:41:02 <b_jonas> so C++ has sort of ran out of them and is now using "remove" for I think two different things, "erase" for two different things, and "delete" for one thing
09:41:52 <b_jonas> actually, maybe "remove" for three different things
09:43:10 <b_jonas> they're also using "clog" for two things but that's not because they've run out of names, but an accident of history, with the two being invented separately and later getting into one language
09:43:19 <b_jonas> and it's now too late to change either
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10:25:58 <HackEgo> [U+0052 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER R]
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10:26:09 <HackEgo> [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0052 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER R]
10:38:39 <Taneb> I... actually don't know what I was doing wrong
10:38:53 <Taneb> A find tool was breaking on the sequence nR until it wasn't
11:09:10 <boily> meanwhile, CAO is down. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
11:09:58 <Taneb> (Ctrl Alt Oxygen? Cards Against O'Reilly?)
11:10:14 <boily> Crawl Akrasiac Org.
11:10:33 <boily> the North American server for DCSS.
11:10:47 <boily> Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup.
11:14:25 <HackEgo> boredom/A boredom is like a kingdom, except ruled by a bore. They don't tend to last very long before people revolt.
11:17:30 <int-e> wait, what's happening to the encoding there?
11:21:39 <boily> hmm... I believe ‘$1?’ is special-cased.
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11:54:44 <b_jonas> argh, I'm trying to figure out a sane way to write this code
11:54:58 <Taneb> b_jonas, what language
11:55:04 <b_jonas> a way that won't trip me up later with mysterious undebuggable errors
11:55:15 <Taneb> b_jonas, what code?
11:55:19 <b_jonas> I know what I want, I just have to get the basics right
11:55:31 <b_jonas> some stupid wrapper class that abstracts some existing library into saner syntax
11:55:42 <b_jonas> only it's not just one class, but multiple classes
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12:39:36 * Taneb is making progress aaaah
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13:01:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PokéArena]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43350&oldid=15159 * LegionMammal978 * (+20) This is an idea...
13:03:07 <b_jonas> no, more like > epsilon progress
13:03:25 <b_jonas> because of Archimedean and stuff
13:03:26 <Taneb> Incidentally, I am working with something called Epsilon
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13:21:37 <b_jonas> ok, should I do this the ugly but short way, or the more explicit but longer way?
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13:46:16 <Taneb> Right, I have accomplished another task and I do not know what to do now
13:47:43 <Taneb> Hmm, what should I have for dinner
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13:57:45 <fizzie> fungot: Why must you keep pinging the timeout?
13:58:18 <fungot> fizzie: http://www.schemers.org/ documents/ standards/ r5rs/ html/ fnord example works perfectly well in 0.57. you said: " error: too many levels of braces
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14:00:35 <mroman_> Probably for large numbers just converting them to the usual 10 digits is probably already a compression scheme for roman numerals
14:01:47 <b_jonas> on anagol, I'd always choose the shorter but uglier way
14:01:49 <Taneb> b_jonas, I think mroman_ is talking about the roman numeral things
14:02:00 <b_jonas> I don't know about whether it's on anagol
14:02:27 <mroman_> No, I was talking about "a compression" challenge
14:02:50 <mroman_> That's at least what I intended to talk about
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15:02:45 <mroman_> @tell hppavilion1 You can always talk to fungot
15:02:47 <fungot> mroman_: oh wait, does that count?). i don't
15:03:01 <mroman_> fungot: No it doesn't count. What about 'or'?
15:03:13 <fungot> mroman_: where do people get off saying such things? :) ( of course, once you know programming languages where (: and :) are language tokens? can't remember. it was accessible in movie clips too. with sp2
15:03:43 <mroman_> fungot: You really need to leak more details about 'or'.
15:04:11 <fungot> mroman_: make some proggies ( read: googled for " stwong" but the zombies said " yes yes"
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17:13:52 <zzo38> Isn't (: and :) are tokens in Kvikkalkul?
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18:33:18 <tswett> Whelp, I'm pretty sure my kernel has not started booting while I was asleep.
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18:46:26 <shachaf> fateful day a couple of days ago
18:46:29 <oerjan> thanks for remembering
18:46:52 <oerjan> shachaf: hey no one else here did hth
18:46:53 <tswett> What, Obergefell v. Hodges?
18:47:46 <oerjan> although relatedly, i was born on the first anniversary of the stonewall riots
18:48:06 <Taneb> oerjan, awww, did I miss oerjanday?
18:48:42 <oerjan> i was visited by family, so didn't log on much
18:48:57 <Taneb> Come to York and I will buy you a drink or something
18:49:56 <oerjan> somewhat unlikely, but thanks
18:51:03 <oerjan> those supreme court judges don't understand timing, clearly they should have waited 2 more days.
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18:52:26 <shachaf> what was wrong with their timing
18:52:43 <Taneb> shachaf, just missed the anniversary of stonewall
18:52:52 <oerjan> shachaf: imagine if the gays could have celebrated stonewall and obergefell v. hodges on the same day
18:53:23 <oerjan> although, easy solution, just make it a 3-day celebration
18:53:38 <oerjan> Taneb: sorry, only thought of that after pressing return
18:54:46 <shachaf> well the whole parade thing was in sf two days later
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18:55:10 <shachaf> so there was plenty of celebrating hth
18:55:16 <Taneb> London Pride was around the same time too
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18:55:27 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/article/supreme-court-rules-favor-most-buck-wild-pride-par-50768
18:56:56 <oerjan> hm seems the festival is on a close weekend
18:58:16 <oerjan> but this day it fell on the actual stonewall date
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19:02:43 <zzo38> Now in Dungeons&Dragons game we entered an underground city and a wizard made most of us invisible. But, I have to figure out what to do, considering what kind of thing can remove the invisibility: the spell expires, attacking, anti-magic field. A bit like a game or correspondence chess we have a lot of time to figure out the plan, but unlike in chess you can't do in between each individual move
19:03:39 <oerjan> clearly you should hold an aberration pride parade hth
19:03:46 <Taneb> zzo38, did I tell you that in the 4th ed game I am in we are hiding in a ship that was meant as our own decoy
19:03:58 <zzo38> Any kind of parade might result in too much attention
19:04:17 <zzo38> Taneb: I think you did
19:04:43 <Taneb> Basically because the party's wizard is a very stubborn character
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19:05:35 <zzo38> In a game I am in though I exploded a ship with their own explosives before they could reach our ship
19:05:48 <Taneb> The 5th ed game I am in, we did an encounter too quickly (in sticking-to-the-story terms) because the DM forgot that 2/3 of the party has night vision
19:07:47 <b_jonas> abberation pride parade hehe
19:08:08 <zzo38> Such a parade doesn't even make much sense, and even if it did it probably won't work
19:08:35 <shachaf> Taneb: if you come visit berkeley i will buy you a drink or something
19:08:43 <shachaf> but most likely something, rather than a drink
19:08:48 <shachaf> unless you're really into drinks
19:08:50 <b_jonas> sure, it would probably not be a good idea for sneaking in a city invisible
19:08:59 <Taneb> shachaf, actually I am just kind of thirsty right now
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19:10:18 <zzo38> At least, not at first. But if the situation can be made to allow such a bit unusual thing to work might result in the correct kind of distraction. That would require a lot of setting up though, and require events to come out in a certain way, which is probably not what will happen.
19:11:12 <Taneb> We also had our plans to blow up a bank foiled when the bank blew up
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19:12:00 <zzo38> I don't expect I ever have needed or would need to blow up a bank though
19:12:50 <Taneb> We were planning on framing it on one of the empires who are chasing after us
19:16:06 <b_jonas> "one of the empires who are chasing after us" sounds funny
19:16:40 <Taneb> b_jonas, I have ended up with a magical superweapon attached to me
19:16:48 <b_jonas> oh great, I need one more series of classes
19:17:29 <Taneb> Which is much desired by various nations
19:17:34 <Taneb> We are headed to another continent
19:20:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noisett]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43351&oldid=43326 * EmptyJL * (-3)
19:21:28 <oerjan> <Taneb> It is 5 past nine in the morning and already 21 degrees Celsius! <-- i take it you're already on another continent
19:21:46 <zzo38> The invisibility probably will not last long enough, therefore requiring hiding and sneaky and so on
19:21:48 <Taneb> oerjan, I continue to be in York
19:22:11 <oerjan> england is known to be always cold and wet hth
19:22:27 <Taneb> oerjan, didn't you hear that Yorkshire declared independence
19:23:40 <Taneb> istr if Yorkshire was independent it would have been in the top 10 in the 2012 olympics
19:26:08 <oerjan> i think that might apply to trøndelag in the winter games
19:26:37 <Taneb> So trøndelag is the yorkshire of Norway?
19:26:58 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure what a yorkshire of norway would be
19:27:14 * Taneb --> somewhere maybe cooler
19:27:16 <oerjan> (since i'm not entirely sure what a yorkshire of england is)
19:27:24 <shachaf> Taneb: there's nowhere cooler than #esoteric hth
19:27:34 <zzo38> The guards suggested to our two visible people (two generic human soldiers and therefore no problem to be seen and not recognized) to leave by the west passage (we entered through the north passage), but we can't because one of our party has been left behind to guard the entrance so we have to go back that way
19:27:36 <Taneb> shachaf, I meant in temperature
19:27:43 <shachaf> oerjan: the yorkshire of england is yorkshire hth
19:28:16 <zzo38> This city is also very large and may take a long time to find something. Making it too dark, waiting for nightfall, whatever, might help too though, if we can figure out how is best way
19:29:48 <zzo38> When you have not only a system of two factions against each other, but rather *five*, with complicated relations, this makes it much more confusing.
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19:41:55 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 Bike
19:42:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/%241%3F
19:44:32 <oerjan> `` echo -n 'hm... '; \? '$1?'
19:45:58 <oerjan> (that prevents HackEgo's zero-width space)
19:49:03 <shachaf> wait, wasn't "nitia" one of Bike's old nicks?
19:49:51 <shachaf> that's why I thought it was familiar tdnh
19:50:19 <oerjan> oh dear, bike has been absorbed into HackEgo's database
19:50:29 <oerjan> that explains why we haven't seen him
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21:02:12 <shachaf> mauris_: what happened to your old nick?
21:03:40 <mauris_> my irl first name got freed up on freenode's nickserv! that's an opportunity too good to pass up
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21:04:11 <shachaf> that's how i chose my nick too
21:04:19 <shachaf> but i thought your first name was nooooooooodl?
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21:04:44 <mauris> now i'm in this cool club with you, oerjan, elliott (rip), maybe other people here
21:05:15 <mauris> changing my first name to nooodl to make up for "mauris" already being taken on freenode would have been a very good alternative
21:05:55 <shachaf> Changing his name to match his domain name.
21:06:48 <mauris> that is a pretty good name
21:07:41 <mauris> but a pretty horrible looking website
21:08:56 <mauris> oh it's font-family: fantasy;
21:09:18 <mauris> a very good CSS feature "i don't care what font shows up here, as long as it's ugly"
21:09:32 <pikhq> font-family: eyerape;
21:12:40 <zzo38> My own opinion is it should simply be two choices: fixed-pitch or don't-care
21:13:25 <zzo38> With also an optional language parameter, so that it can select a font suitable for that language if needed
21:15:22 <pikhq> zzo38: There *is* a language parameter, lang:
21:15:22 <b_jonas> I'm writing scary overoptimized code
21:15:52 <zzo38> Yes, I am just saying the font should only be decided by the language, heading level, and one flag to tell whether or not fixpitch is needed
21:16:15 <pikhq> Unfortunately there's a couple other attributes that are appropriate, depending on the language.
21:17:01 <zzo38> Other parameter needed though are to specify emphasis or not
21:17:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, and the language parameter probably only has about four meaningful bits that are in common use (russian vs serbian; turkish vs anything else; cjk style)
21:17:45 <pikhq> serif vs. sans serif for Western scripts, Mincho vs. Gothic for East Asian...
21:18:18 <zzo38> Serif/sans-serif/etc should be decided by the client's options instead
21:18:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, teh sans-serif font I set up in my browser is actually a serif font
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21:19:03 <pikhq> b_jonas: There's more linguistic variety in rendering than that. For instance, whether or not certain ligatures should be used is language-specific.
21:19:18 <b_jonas> pikhq: can you give examples?
21:19:39 <b_jonas> there may be other varieties, in which case I'd like to know about them
21:21:15 <pikhq> (though minor) German does not traditionally have an "ffl" ligature.
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21:22:39 <b_jonas> IMO, in most fonts, the fi and fl ligatures are actually VERY ugly, made to differ a lot from separate fi or fl letters because an fi ligature is somehow the mark of professionalism
21:22:40 <pikhq> In Roman alphabet text you're not going to find huge such varieties; the more common distinction is whether or not a given glyph is considered a ligature or a letter.
21:23:05 <b_jonas> most fonts either shouldn't have an fi or fl ligature at all, or should have one that looks almost the same as the two letters rendered separately
21:23:25 <b_jonas> (possibly after some kerning)
21:24:22 <b_jonas> the most horrible is when the ligature appears in the ligature table of a monospaced font, so the monospaced font suddenly isn't as monospaced as you'd have thought
21:24:55 <b_jonas> you write "fi" in such a font, and it will take only one cell, not two
21:24:58 <zzo38> I don't like ligatures in monospace font
21:25:07 <zzo38> 2600 uses ligatures in monospace font and I don't like that
21:25:28 <b_jonas> in this case the problem is that the ligature takes only one monospaced cell instead of two
21:25:50 <zzo38> They also use smartquotes in monospace text and that also is no good
21:25:51 <b_jonas> but in any case, even if it took two cells, an "fi" ligature isn't likely to be needed in a monospaced font
21:26:24 <pikhq> Probably more *relevant* is Arabic vs. Urdu script, which has somewhat distinct glyph rendering...
21:26:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: but isn't that an editor issue rather than a font problem?
21:26:39 <zzo38> b_jonas: Probably, yes
21:27:04 <pikhq> An "fi" ligature is certainly needed in a monospaced font, but for only one reason: it has a code point (for legacy reasons).
21:27:39 <b_jonas> mind you, I also think that perhaps there should have been two different cyrillic scripts, not only one, instead of two different options for language-specific rendering cyrillic text, but it's definitely too late to change that now.
21:28:00 <b_jonas> pikhq: yes, but then the ligature table shouldn't turn "fi" to that code point
21:28:25 <b_jonas> even if there's a glyph for that code point
21:28:35 <pikhq> Oh, certainly. That (well, or similar) is only at all appropriate in the rendering of proportional text.
21:29:52 <pikhq> In fixed width text, the sane handling is that any given codepoint takes 0, 1, or 2 cells.
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21:38:54 <lambdabot> http://www.esotericonline.net/group/vortexmath
21:38:54 <lambdabot> Title: Vortex based Mathematics - Esoteric Online
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21:51:24 <b_jonas> if I'm writing a C++ library with lots of short inline const member functions in template classes, would it be going too far if I said #define Z ) const { return
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21:57:28 <pikhq> that's... terrible.
22:01:15 <HackEgo> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
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22:04:17 <oerjan> eek wtf thursday forecast
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22:04:45 <pikhq> Mmm, T23:59:60Z a'comin.
22:05:07 <oerjan> over the next 48 hours it will increase from a low of 13 to a high of 26 celsius
22:05:46 * oerjan needs an acclimatization pill
22:06:47 <pikhq> Could be worse! It's 29C and humid right now!
22:06:52 <pikhq> Oh, and that's a normal temp here.
22:08:25 <myname> itks gpnna be 37chere on saturday
22:08:33 <pikhq> myname: I know, right? That's comfy.
22:10:34 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh, also fun: the average high in July is 31.7C. :)
22:11:08 <oerjan> that's only about 4 degrees below the norwegian maximum temperature record hth
22:11:13 <pikhq> (the record high being a far less happiness-inducing 46C)
22:12:30 <pikhq> The absolute highest recorded temp in the *US*, BTW, is 57C. (kill me)
22:12:57 <oerjan> i thought the death valley had the global record now, after the libyan one was discredited?
22:13:13 <pikhq> That probably is the global high then.
22:15:46 <pikhq> And then there's Phoenix, which has on average about 100 days a year above 37C...
22:16:51 <myname> it sucks to ride a bike there, i guess
22:17:37 <oerjan> Christopher C. Burt, the weather historian writing for Weather Underground who shepherded the Libya reading's 2012 disqualification, believes that the 1913 Death Valley reading is "a myth", and is at least four or five degrees Fahrenheit too high,[10] as do other weather historians Dr. Arnold Court and William Taylor Reid.[90] Burt proposes that the highest reliably recorded temperature on Earth is still at Death Valley, but is instead 53.9 °C ...
22:17:43 <oerjan> ... (129 °F) recorded five times [...]
22:18:42 <myname> 54 c is about the temperature where people become liquid
22:19:35 <oerjan> haven't seen em in a while
22:24:50 <HackEgo> elliot/No one was ever called Elliot.
22:26:07 <pikhq> Of course, 53C has been recorded in Arizona as well.
22:26:51 <HackEgo> hexham/Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
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22:41:09 <HackEgo> wisdom/hash 2346ad27d7568ba9896f1b7da6b5991251debdf2
22:41:32 <oerjan> i guess it's still there because of the `revert bug.
22:42:24 <HackEgo> oerjan/Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
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22:42:58 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
22:44:08 <shachaf> oerjan: what do you think of time complexity analysis with regard to average time for an operation twh
22:44:28 <oerjan> splendid idea, someone else should do that hth
22:46:08 <shachaf> Is shuf -n1 clever enough to only keep one line in memory?
22:49:26 <oerjan> interesting question. it could obviously do so.
22:50:19 <shachaf> Presumably you can implement shuf -nN with only N lines in memory.
22:50:29 <shachaf> Is that a standard algorithm?
22:50:56 <b_jonas> shachaf: in fact, there are _two_ algorithms, one known, one barely known
22:50:57 <shachaf> Oh, I've even read about it before.
22:51:29 <b_jonas> oh wait, you want N lines of memory only, not runtime?
22:51:30 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservoir_sampling
22:51:34 <b_jonas> then it's a simple standard algorithm
22:51:39 <b_jonas> sorry, I read your question wrong
22:52:36 <b_jonas> there's a more complicated algorithm for choosing n random indexes without repetition from a large range 1..N where N is much larger than n,
22:52:53 <b_jonas> with not only the memory usage being O(n), but the runtime as well
22:53:51 <b_jonas> and there's two algorithms for that, one described in an exercise in Knuth, the other is barely known
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22:56:11 <oerjan> shuf has some trouble being time limited since lines don't have predictable length
22:56:58 <b_jonas> this is worth not for when you have N data represented explicitly, but when you can generate the data with a fast function from the index
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23:13:54 <zzo38> What is "shuf -n" command meaning?
23:18:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: choose N uniform random lines of the input without repetition and in random order (unless there are fewer than N lines in the input), where N is the argument to the switch -n
23:19:49 <zzo38> If you want one random line can you do, pick the first line with probability 1/1, replace the memory with the second line with probability 1/2, replace the memory with the third line with probability 1/3, etc
23:20:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's how it works
23:20:50 <b_jonas> the algorithm for shuf -n is so famous it's described in both the main text of Knuth and (iirc) in the Cormen-Leiserson-Rivest-Stein book
23:21:54 <zzo38> I did once need to implement such a thing too, but with weights too, and this is what I used.
23:22:43 <b_jonas> weighted is probably less well known
23:23:01 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what the weights are supposed to mean
23:23:11 <zzo38> Well, this is I figured it out by myself I didn't read those books
23:23:47 <b_jonas> does it mean you take a weighted independent random selection of N items, and then condition that on it having no repetitions?
23:24:39 <zzo38> In my case I was only taking one item, and the weight is meaning that item can be more than one
23:25:16 <zzo38> Such as [AAAABBCCDEFG] then you can instead make [A(4) B(2) C(2) D(1) E(1) F(1) G(1)] where the number in () is a weight number.
23:26:02 <fowl> Does a markov chain generally hold probability info
23:26:23 <zzo38> fowl: I thought it does but I don't know
23:26:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, choosing _one_ item with weighted
23:26:55 <b_jonas> the algorithm for that _is_ in Knuth
23:27:07 <fowl> I am using a table of (string,string) => list<string>
23:27:16 <fowl> And choosing the next word at random
23:27:32 <b_jonas> in fact, a stronger algorithm for that
23:27:57 <b_jonas> again, one that finds a random index in O(1) time, after O(n) time and space preprocessing the weights to O(n) extra space
23:28:56 <b_jonas> I believe that algorithm is also in the C++11 standard library, the preprocessed state is called std::discrete_distribution
23:29:21 <b_jonas> (and its operator() member function generates an index based on the preprocessed data)
23:29:37 <b_jonas> I think it's also in libgsl, but I'm not completely sure
23:30:16 <b_jonas> this, of course, is again most useful if you can random access the input you want to sample
23:30:29 <b_jonas> otherwise the simpler algorithm with no preprocessing works too
23:31:28 <zzo38> I didn't use preprocess weights. I implemented it as a SQL aggregate function in a C code, so you have to read it one record at a time and do not have the capability to preprocess anything
23:32:59 <b_jonas> though if the input set is always the same, you could index it so it's random access by the index, and then use the more complicated algorithm if you want to get lots of independent weighted samples
23:33:34 <b_jonas> like if a webpage wants to show a random image or quotations out of a weighted set every time you load it
23:34:35 <zzo38> The function implementation doesn't know if the input set is always the same or not, and anyways I didn't implement it for multiple selections; I only implemented to pick one. But yes it can be useful, if you want to pick more than one, to make up the proper way to do that
23:36:09 <zzo38> But, one purpose I intend to do with is that you can generate a booster pack of Magic: the Gathering cards or whatever by a SQL query.
23:37:26 <b_jonas> though that's more complicated
23:37:33 <b_jonas> a booster pack usually doesn't contain repetitions
23:38:11 <b_jonas> and the ideal distribution used might not be completely known, because Wizards doesn't tell so that people can't complain if they don't do it perfectly
23:38:33 <b_jonas> you can probably find a convincing enough approximation for that distribution though
23:39:03 <zzo38> I don't know whether or not it does, but that would involve changing it too. However you can also just use the weights when there is not the repetitions, use a trigger that would insert records into the pack table and each time to pick one, pick only from the ones that aren't already picked
23:39:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm not sure if that's exactly the same
23:40:31 <b_jonas> I mean, I'm not sure it's the same as repicking the whole thing when there's a repetition
23:42:00 <b_jonas> in fact, I think it's not the same
23:42:05 <b_jonas> when the distribution is not uniform
23:42:35 <zzo38> In SQL a infinite loop can contain only SELECT statements though, you can't make a infinite loop with INSERT, UPDATE, DELETE, etc although finite loops can contain INSERT, UPDATE, DELETE; and no loops can include statements such as CREATE and PRAGMA
23:44:48 <b_jonas> but can't you just generate a booster pack using unweighted samples without repetition instead?
23:45:23 <b_jonas> with possibly some cards duplicated in older sets, and deciding separately whether you want a mythic or a rare, and whether you want a foil and of what rarity
23:45:27 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering at least, I think the only case where weighted samples are even needed is when you don't pick more than one
23:45:33 <zzo38> (Except for some old sets)
23:46:04 <b_jonas> even for old sets, you just need multiple copies of a card in the same set and rarity (sometimes with the same art, sometimes with different art)
23:46:21 <b_jonas> but of course it's hard to be sure what they really do to generate booster packs
23:46:55 <zzo38> I would generally though want to ignore art and holographic since they don't affect the game. Nevertheless for some people can be useful such as if they use this software to make up their own card game
23:49:03 <b_jonas> the foil does affect the distribution of the booster card
23:49:15 <b_jonas> (at least for most of the recent expert expansion sets)
23:49:40 <b_jonas> because a common is replaced by a foil of any rarity, so boosters with a foil rare have another rare
23:49:51 <b_jonas> you can't just ignore that
23:50:13 <zzo38> Does it improve the Limited formats though?
23:50:24 <b_jonas> you could ignore the art, technically, but that doesn't really simpligy your code
23:50:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know really
23:50:29 <pikhq> Yes, it's possible for a draft pool to have more rares than expected.
23:50:51 <pikhq> Unless by "improve" you mean "make it a better game", not "improve the power level in the format".
23:51:02 <zzo38> I mean to make it a better game.
23:51:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: it probably improves the satisfaction of customers at least, because they can very rarely open boosters with two rares
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23:51:17 <pikhq> Ah. That's probably a judgement call really.
23:51:20 <b_jonas> I don't know how it affects the metagame itself
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23:52:16 <zzo38> When making up distribution of cards in a pack, I am concerned here only about Limited formats. When I would design my own card game I would do this too and the rarity and so on is defined to improve the Limited formats only.
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23:57:32 <coppro> happy leap second everyone
23:58:20 <zzo38> Do you know if it is possible to add leap seconds into the configuration file of Astrolog?