00:00:31 <mauris> > [[1..l]>>[1]|l<-[1..]]
00:00:35 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,1],[1,1,1],[1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,...
00:02:21 <mauris> i guess that isn't actually shorter than map(`replicate`1)[1..] :(
00:02:40 <mauris> but it's cute and monad-y
00:03:38 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,1],[1,1,1],[1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,...
00:05:22 <mauris> > fix$([1]:).(map(1:))
00:05:23 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,1],[1,1,1],[1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,...
00:06:04 <mauris> fix f = f (f (f (f (f ...))))
00:06:35 <oerjan> except that with the right amount of laziness, it's constant space
00:06:59 <oerjan> because the inner fix f is the same thunk as the whole
00:09:13 <mauris> wow that will line up for me but like, nobody else, rip
00:09:15 <oerjan> i remember someone asking (SO or reddit) why it wasn't the latter
00:09:41 <mauris> oh, are there subtle, _|_-related differences
00:09:57 <oerjan> no, it's probably entirely equivalent semantically
00:10:27 <oerjan> what i'm wondering now is why it isn't iterate f x = go x where go x = x : go (f x)
00:10:41 <oerjan> that's like the standard thing
00:10:47 <oerjan> let me check actual ghc source
00:12:13 <oerjan> hm nope ghc is the same but it has a build rule
00:13:14 <mauris> it bothers me that it would be at all better, for whatever reason, to define it that way :(
00:13:28 <oerjan> myname: the go prevents the f from being passed as a parameter again
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00:13:46 <oerjan> i'm not sure if it _actually_ matters nowadays, but it's traditional
00:14:07 <oerjan> presumably it makes the recursion slightly more efficient
00:15:10 <oerjan> anyway, the build rule for list fusion is more important
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00:15:37 <oerjan> means the list might not be allocated at all if consumed efficiently
00:15:38 <zzo38> How can I make virtual spaces enabled in vi only when the ^V command is used? (I didn't even know about that command before yesterday when I pushed it by accident, but it seem like that command would be useful to have a virtual space mode)
00:16:24 <oren> #include "stdio.h"
00:16:24 <oren> void rep(char *s){while(*s)fputs(s+1,stdout),--*s;putchar(10);}
00:16:24 <oren> void rrp(char *s){while(*s)s[1]=*s,rep(s+1),--*s;}
00:16:46 <oren> int main(){rrp("\003 *");}
00:17:15 <zzo38> O, there is a "virtualedit" option
00:17:34 <myname> zzo38: what do they do?
00:18:31 <oerjan> ^V is rectangular block selection
00:19:06 <oerjan> except that in windows it's ^Q instead, because ^V is paste
00:20:42 <oerjan> and yes, virtualedit is nice, not just for ^V commands but also for some tabular stuff
00:21:12 <oerjan> but i usually only enable it when i want it
00:21:39 <oerjan> since it makes it harder to go to the _actual_ end of line
00:22:30 <zzo38> You can write :set ve=block for only in block selection mode
00:22:40 <zzo38> Which is what I put in
00:24:17 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
00:30:20 <lambdabot> CYQB 260000Z 08007KT 20SM FEW055 FEW140 BKN280 20/14 A2995 RMK SC2AC1CI4 AC TR SLP141 DENSITY ALT 800FT
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01:43:07 <mauris> this seriously bothers me about ruby: https://bpaste.net/show/76f16b0a9fe8
01:43:38 <mauris> you seriously have to write a loop, or use a really ugly ".inject{}" syntax, to sum some values
01:44:21 <mauris> which wouldn't be so bad except, http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.2.2/Array.html#M000413 llllook at all of this nonsense it DOES ship with
01:46:20 <mauris> oh all that on top of http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.2.2/Enumerable.html of course
01:47:31 <mauris> oh, it seems you can write [3, 4, 5].reduce(0, :+) now which is a bit better
02:10:14 <oren> ruby is not a very well designed language
02:11:43 <oren> python is better. perl is worse designed but is more mature and has a better collection of libraries
02:13:06 <shachaf> mauris: What's wrong with inject?
02:13:28 <shachaf> "Doesn't have a built-in sum method" is pretty silly, of all the complaints you could make about Ruby.
02:13:37 <mauris> nothing. there's nothing wrong with a for loop either!
02:14:09 <shachaf> Probably slightly nicer than .inject(0, :+)
02:14:19 <fowl> (1..10).select &:even?
02:14:29 <mauris> just saying, if #repeated_permutation exists, you would really expect #sum to exist as well!
02:15:39 <mauris> rubyists both (a) clearly like "big" interfaces that provide everything you need including the #kitchen_sink, and (b) take sums of things often, because everyone does that
02:16:04 <mauris> heck, rails even monkey patches it into Enumerable or something bafflingly Ruby-ish like that??
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02:42:07 <oren> Wat the hell do u mean I can't use unary plus on a pointer?!?!
02:43:34 <oren> oh, I get it. I forgot one of the plusses in my *++s
02:45:03 <ais523> wait, you can't use unary plus on a pointer?
02:45:21 <ais523> congrats on making a no-op that sometimes doesn't work, C standard designers ;-)
02:45:23 <oren> apparently not.
02:46:01 <oren> unary plus should really mean abs()
02:46:13 <ais523> then unary minus should be -abs()
02:46:51 <oren> no that's unary -+
02:47:50 <oren> or maybe +- jsut to confuse people
02:48:21 <oren> i mean - -x already menas different from --x
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02:54:34 <oren> you can write j++ as ~-(j=-~j)
02:58:31 <pikhq> You can also write NULL as 0xff&0xff00.
03:01:55 <ais523> I've seen -~ and ~- suggested as "+1" and "-1" operators
03:02:06 <ais523> (by Raymond Chen, who was uncharacteristically for him trolling)
03:02:16 <ais523> not sure which way round they are offhand
03:05:04 <zzo38> I think it is OK if you cannot make unary plus on a pointer, in case a null pointer isn't zero on your computer
03:05:43 <zzo38> ais523: I didn't think of that but yes it can work, it look like
03:06:20 <zzo38> It might help in some code-golfs if the precedence is wrong to otherwise write +1 and -1
03:08:20 <oerjan> `! c printf("%d", 1+~+1);
03:09:12 <oerjan> `! c printf("%d", 1-~-1);
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03:24:15 <ais523> huh, "créée" is a word in French? or is that a typo?
03:24:22 <ais523> that's a lot of vowels to have in a row
03:29:14 <coppro> if it helps, the last e is silent
03:29:30 <coppro> no I think the last e shouldn't be htere
03:30:00 <coppro> créée would be feminine
03:30:26 <coppro> maybe it's just been too long since I'm written French
03:30:55 <coppro> apparently you *can* use créée for a feminine object, although it's uncommon
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03:56:07 <ais523> I translated it as "created" from context and because I recognised the route
03:56:12 <ais523> didn't realise it was a gendered version, though
03:56:27 <ais523> and no wonder the final e is dying out
03:58:13 <pikhq> Maybe I'm misreading, but to *me* it looks like "cr??e".
03:58:22 <ais523> the question marks are e-acutes
03:58:42 <ais523> maybe my client sent them in Latin-1 (they're in that charset) rather than UTF-8?
03:58:58 <ais523> it is set to UTF-8 mode, though
03:59:15 <pikhq> It's gotta be weirder than that, because my client on invalid UTF-8 tries Latin-1.
03:59:33 <ais523> is this coppro's use of the word or mine that you're checking?
03:59:57 <pikhq> Both are showing as the string "cr??e".
04:00:06 <ais523> sounds like a misconfiguration to me
04:00:16 <ais523> but I can't think of any obvious ones that'd cause that result
04:00:20 <ais523> especially seeing two ? rather than four
04:00:40 <pikhq> And I've been using this irssi config for ages.
04:00:50 <pikhq> And accented characters have shown just fine before.
04:00:55 <coppro> usually that's my problem
04:01:00 <coppro> screen gets misconfigured
04:01:04 <coppro> because it fucking sucks
04:01:43 <ais523> screen gives two potentially broken connections, one from the inside program to screen, one from screen to the outside program
04:01:53 <ais523> IME the inside one breaks more often
04:02:13 <coppro> yeah, and it's annoying because ^A:utf8 on doesn't always fix it
04:02:19 <pikhq> The inside one *appears* to currently be UTF-8.
04:02:47 <pikhq> *Aaaaagh*, yep, it's definitely just doing that on all UTF-8.
04:02:51 <pikhq> Fuck you screen, fuck you.
04:03:21 <ais523> from the description of the problem
04:03:30 <ais523> I'm guessing it's actually the outside connection that's broken here
04:03:33 <ais523> and the inside one is working fine
04:03:53 <ais523> this also means that us sending Latin-1 wouldn't help at all
04:04:10 <ais523> easy enough to test: cre
04:04:15 <pikhq> For extra fun, though, I'm *literally* using "screen -U" to attach to the session.
04:04:53 <pikhq> ... what the ever loving fuck
04:05:00 <pikhq> HOW DID THAT GET SET IN MY ENVIRONMENT
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04:05:17 <pikhq> But what the fuck?
04:05:21 <ais523> what should it be? C.UTF-8? en_US.UTF-8?
04:05:41 <coppro> pikhq: -U is ignored when attaching
04:05:45 * ski . o O ( `^A:utf8 on on' )
04:05:47 <ais523> I have a French locale installed for debugging locale-related problems
04:06:04 <coppro> pikhq: it got set because screen fucking sucks
04:06:30 <pikhq> Nonono. *Outside of screen* LANG=C.
04:06:34 <ais523> screen is a constant source of aggravation to me in NH4
04:06:36 <ais523> (ipbt is worse, though)
04:06:44 <ais523> the problem with ipbt is that it can decode codes that it can't render
04:06:48 <ais523> thus it fails to fall back gracefully
04:06:52 <pikhq> shachaf: Mostly good.
04:07:00 <ais523> is there a good view of the mountain?
04:07:06 <pikhq> I'm in north San Jose ATM.
04:07:06 <ais523> or is it misleadingly named?
04:07:12 <pikhq> Adjacent to Milpitas.
04:07:26 <pikhq> ais523: There is a decent view of adjoining mountains.
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04:10:14 <pikhq> This is mysterious.
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04:10:36 <ais523> pikhq: where is your locale set?
04:10:43 <ais523> normally it'd be in .bashrc or the like
04:10:48 <ais523> maybe it isn't being set anywhere and is defaulting to C
04:11:01 <pikhq> I have no idea where it's getting set, it previously was getting set to en_US.UTF-8.
04:11:16 <pikhq> Also, it's not *defaulting to C*. In that case LANG would be unset.
04:11:25 <pikhq> It is *being explicitly set to C*.
04:11:42 <ais523> it could be set in some process a long way up the tree (probably not init, but…), and never being unset
04:11:56 <ais523> I would laugh so much if it were systemd
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04:12:30 <ais523> first thought upon seeing the username: "herbs in ADOM would be Turing-complete, if it had infinitely large levels, and were designed specifically to do that"
04:12:50 <pikhq> Obvious easy solution is a big hammer: add LANG=en_US.UTF-8 to .profile
04:13:04 <ais523> another possibility: was in the wrong #esoteric and noticed upon seeing the join method
04:13:12 <ais523> pikhq: that's not only easy, it's also arguably correct
04:14:49 <pikhq> In general, locale is a per-user configuration setting, after all.
04:16:17 <pikhq> That at least answers most of my questions.
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04:25:39 <oren> I have utf-8 characters in my screen statuslien
04:25:50 <oren> it never seems to mess up
04:26:23 <oren> ASUS Broken 時 Jul 26 Sun 00:26 窓 0 bash 1 bash 2* bash
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04:27:12 <oren> orenwatson.be 時 Jul 26 Sun 04:27 窓 0* bash
04:27:44 <oren> that's the inner screen on orenwatson.be
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06:08:58 <ais523> Wallacoloo: your connection problems are spamming the channel
06:10:03 <Wallacoloo> Oh shoot. Sorry ais523. I'm troubleshooting driver issues with steam on Linux & my IRC client is configured to autoconnect whenever my desktop starts.
06:10:18 <ais523> I thought you probably didn't know, which is why I let you know
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06:28:48 <zzo38> Do you have the example?
06:29:30 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, go through the list, and drop any item that comes after something it should come before
06:29:46 <hppavilion[1]> It ALWAYS produces a correctly-sorted list, though it's a lossy algorithm
06:30:02 <myname> can do better: return the first element
06:30:43 <zzo38> Depends what you are trying to do clearly, if it is better or not
06:31:00 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: it's O(n) in both cases
06:31:01 <myname> O(n) = O(n-1) = O(n+1)
06:31:10 <ais523> because you're confused about how big-O notation works
06:31:19 <ais523> as n gets larger, it dwarfs the 1
06:31:55 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: basically you omit all details that become irrelevant as n gets larger
06:32:07 <myname> so there clearly is a constant to make n an upper bound of n+1
06:32:14 <hppavilion[1]> But one could argue that returning [0] is even MORE efficient
06:32:22 <ais523> i.e. the proportion of the whole thing they are tends to zero
06:32:34 <myname> hppavilion[1]: depending on your architecture
06:32:44 <ais523> also, you ignore any effects that would simply multiply by a constant, or anything bounded by a constant
06:33:13 <ais523> so O(2*n**2 + n) = O(2*n**2) (n is dwarfed) = O(n**2) (ignore multiplication by a constant)
06:33:21 <ais523> the fastest you can get is O(1)
06:33:25 <ais523> I don't think dropsort would be
06:33:31 <ais523> basically because it isn't very interesting
06:33:40 <ais523> maybe something along those lines could be
06:33:45 <myname> ais523: well, the fastest is o(1) :p
06:33:46 <ais523> especially if you made it into an esolang somehow
06:34:01 <ais523> myname: does that even make sense? :-P
06:34:13 <hppavilion[1]> It would be well-encouraged to make an Esoalg in an Esolang
06:34:27 <myname> ais523: 1/n is in o(1), i don't know an algorithm with that runtime, though
06:34:29 <zzo38> I think I have seen the esoteric list of sorting algorithm
06:34:33 <hppavilion[1]> But do you think I'd get in trouble if I created a page for an Esoteric Algorithm?
06:34:43 <shachaf> ais523: Parts of algorithms can be faster than O(1) time.
06:34:44 <ais523> myname: that implies it gets faster the more work it has to do
06:34:58 <shachaf> E.g. O(1/n) for part of an amortized thing.
06:35:08 <shachaf> But of course you end up with O(1+1/n) overall, which is just O(1).
06:35:31 <myname> normal approach on randomized algorithms
06:35:57 <zzo38> They aren't actually useful for sorting but some may have other uses in the proper program, whether it is Drop Sort or Intelligent Design Sort or whatever
06:36:03 <myname> (n log n)/n^2 is in o(1) and exists in amortized problems
06:36:21 <ais523> zzo38: Intelligent Design Sort is where you return the list itself, and require someone else to have laready ordered it
06:36:37 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, you assume it is already in the optimial order, I know
06:37:02 <myname> we had a "efficient c programming" course here
06:37:02 <ais523> oh, that was meant to be a question
06:37:08 <ais523> but I forgot the question mark
06:37:23 <myname> i always thought we should make "unefficient assembly programming" as a contest
06:37:35 <zzo38> It might be used in cases where it is too difficult/complicated to figure out the proper algorithm to make the optimal order for whatever it is, such as if an ordinary sort doesn't work for some reason
06:37:53 <ais523> myname: that still looks reasonable?
06:38:07 <myname> solve a problem as slow as possible so that you cannot drop any part of the code to make it faster and still solve the problem
06:38:10 <ais523> or that can be arbitrarily stupid?
06:38:42 <ais523> I mean, something like stoogesort or bogosort can't be meaningfully simplified and yet is very slow compared to other algorithms
06:38:47 <ais523> (stoogesort is hilarious)
06:39:00 <myname> like bogosort cannot be made faster by dropping stuff, but quicksort where you multiply your input and divide it again can
06:39:13 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: What idea you have of esoteric cryptological systems?
06:39:42 <myname> e.g. we have to make a brainfuck interpreter in assembly
06:40:00 <myname> and i had students that wrote binary search for the command to execute
06:40:28 <myname> that way they always have 4 comparisons and jumps for every command instead of a maximum of 8
06:40:45 <zzo38> Just post on here when you have some, or a section in your userpage; this channel is logged too
06:40:58 <ais523> myname: how does that compare performance-wise to a jump table?
06:41:05 <ais523> I'm never sure whether jump tables are really fast or really slow in asm
06:41:16 <ais523> did any of your students do RLE?
06:41:18 <myname> they may be the fastest
06:41:38 <myname> the thing is, binary search is pretty useless on real brainfuck code
06:42:04 <myname> i would check in the order of how common they are in larger code
06:42:27 <myname> like + and > are way more often used than , in a typical.bf programm
06:42:50 <zzo38> Jump table probably does work more fast. But, in what computer is this assembly language of?
06:43:35 <myname> other than that, nothing specifically
06:44:14 <ais523> zzo38: jump tables can ruin branch prediction
06:44:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Community portal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43589&oldid=43202 * Hppavilion1 * (+430) Added a link to my #esocrypt IRC channel. Please don't hurt me, I just want people to know it exists, and it's more-or-less relevant.
06:44:55 <zzo38> Yes, if you are using a computer with hardware branch prediction
06:45:10 <zzo38> I suppose x86 probably does
06:45:16 <zzo38> But I program in 6502 assembly language myself
06:46:41 <zzo38> Which is a more sensible system; I don't like hardware branch prediction it should be made in software.
06:47:42 <zzo38> What help you need?
06:47:45 <ais523> zzo38: well branch hinting is done by arranging code so that the branch being taken is the likely path, and the branch not being taken is the unlikely path
06:47:53 <hppavilion[1]> How do I set up my channel such that other people can't gain control over it by using my username?
06:48:09 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Use the CS command; see CS HELP for details
06:48:20 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: first you need to register with NickServ
06:48:32 <ais523> do "/msg nickserv help" for info, which many clients can abbreviate "/ns help"
06:48:33 <zzo38> Try the "NS HELP" command for details about how to register
06:48:51 <ais523> then you register the channel with ChanServ "/msg chanserv help" or "/cs help" for info
06:49:07 <ais523> the NS and CS shortcuts were possibly designed for zzo38 ;-)
06:49:34 <myname> ais523: how about featuring funciton? :p
06:49:45 <ais523> to put on the main page
06:49:58 <ais523> having to write those is the main reason we rarely get new featured languages
06:53:13 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]; Now you would need chanserv also, then.
06:53:57 <zzo38> Look at the help files first
06:54:42 <zzo38> In 6502 codes to make a jump table I generally will make two tables, one with the high byte of one less than the address to jump to, and one with the low byte of one less than the address to jump to; I use macro to do this. Many people though seem not doing it like this
06:56:18 <ais523> you need to remember your password
06:56:41 <ais523> and no, at this point (so long as you use the channel often enough that it doesn't get dropped), you have control of the channel and can stop unauthorized uses
06:56:55 <ais523> although they won't stop automatically
06:56:58 <hppavilion[1]> It's my kind-of-secure but not-too-secure password
06:57:00 <ais523> you actually have to turn up to stop them
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07:00:49 <hppavilion[1]> I've never been involved in a mailing list that I was actually interested in..
07:02:39 <myname> advice of a friend of mine: do not subscribe to lkml unless you know you either delete regularly or have a client that can handle deleting of huge amount of mails
07:05:16 <myname> just write a bf interpreter in it :p
07:08:42 <ais523> Walpurgisnacht: Malbolge itself isn't TC
07:08:45 <ais523> because of finite memory
07:08:55 <ais523> there's a variant Malbolge-T that might be, but hasn't been proven to do so
07:09:20 <ais523> Malbolge seems to be able to handle arbitrary control flow and arbitrary action at an arbitrary point, so it's just the data storage that's the problem
07:10:03 <Walpurgisnacht> Can I make a variant of malbolge that has a large finite memory
07:10:22 <ais523> you could just increase the number of trits beyond 10
07:10:40 <hppavilion[1]> I'm starting my own Esoteric Programming Shit mailing list
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07:12:46 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone who wants to join email esolangsmailinglist@gmail.com and tell me
07:14:07 <myname> how welcome is it to extend somebody elses language? should i make a fork or a section in the article with my idea?
07:15:05 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not sure you're supposed to edit the article itself
07:18:31 <zzo38> It might depend, what languages are you intend to extend? Malbolge, or others, or what?
07:21:31 <fowl> Thats the logo
07:21:57 <fowl> Limes make 99 bottles of beer taste better
07:22:53 <myname> replacing it with anything else makes beer taste better :p
07:25:30 <zzo38> (such as in case you do not want to get drunk from too much beer)
07:25:43 <zzo38> (and 99 is probably too much beer)
07:28:07 <zzo38> Well, I suppose nobody does at this time anyways
07:29:43 <zzo38> But anyone who does later can write the message to you isn't it?
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07:42:51 <myname> awesome. i have a back
07:45:27 <zzo38> Do you know what SQLite extensions Mozilla defines (if any)?
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09:27:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43590&oldid=40285 * Rdebath * (+402) Checked all 0-255 for wrapping, LH cells, value in current cells and general formatting.
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10:20:54 <myname> data List a = [] | a : List a
10:21:07 <myname> is this the actual haskell implementation?
10:22:21 <Taneb> myname, well, instead of List it's [], which is special
10:22:32 <Taneb> But the definition is certainly equivalent to that
10:23:45 <myname> woud you be able to define something like that with the syntactic sugar yourself or does it actually need support from.the compiler?
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10:26:05 <Taneb> it needs support from the compiler
10:38:06 <Taneb> (although it doesn't in, for example, Agda)
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10:48:01 <myname> that's only for the data [a] or also for the : constructor?
10:48:17 <myname> i.e. is it possible to use ? as infix constructor
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10:58:04 <Taneb> myname, infix constructors must begin with a colon
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11:57:16 <fizzie> "Dear friends, Good day! Glade to know you are engaged in amusement attractions."
11:57:43 <fizzie> Laurie from Tianjin Mickrod International Trade Co., Ltd wants to sell me electric trackless trains.
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11:59:13 <fizzie> Ooh, spam to wiki@esolangs.org too. I haven't seen much of that.
11:59:23 <fizzie> Spam in Swedish, even.
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12:01:37 <fizzie> Actually, it's the same thing ("free link exchange"), but from "different" people, in English, German, Swedish and Polish.
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12:29:35 <Jafet> Slashes, enterprise edition: https://github.com/mbuettner/retina
12:30:27 <Jafet> (actually, it's more similar to Thue.)
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12:57:02 <b_jonas> quick, what's sed for joining lines?
12:58:04 <oerjan> b_jonas: complicated, i have to look it up every time
12:58:55 <b_jonas> yes, I'll just stick to perl for this
12:59:09 <b_jonas> oerjan: possibly just some lines
12:59:17 <b_jonas> all lines in this simple case
12:59:23 <b_jonas> or I guess I could just use ed or ex
13:03:06 <oerjan> clearly they should just have made a stream version of ex
13:03:30 <b_jonas> nah, I'm generally satisfied with doing everything with perl
13:03:35 <b_jonas> I dunno why I even tried sed for this
13:03:49 <b_jonas> I know perl well enough to do these kinds of things easily
13:04:28 * oerjan notes a wind blowing up there, high above b_jonas
13:05:31 <b_jonas> be careful, it can get strong
13:05:42 <Jafet> Streaming ex in batch ed?
13:06:10 <b_jonas> like, Windstorm with X=7 strong potentially
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13:49:42 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> I created the #esocrypt IRC on here <-- great, now you'll get necromancers looking for the other kind of #esoteric
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13:52:51 <boily> aaaurgh. mosquito bite on the top of my foot.
13:53:01 * boily scratch scratch scratch
13:53:30 <oerjan> mosquitos are tiny vampires. soon you'll turn into one and start hanging out at #esocrypt.
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13:56:29 <oerjan> `learn Mosquitos are tiny vampires, sucking out your soul.
13:56:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'mosquito': Mosquitos are tiny vampires, sucking out your soul.
13:56:43 <boily> I'm not sure I have a soul to start with...
13:56:55 <oerjan> maybe they got you earlier
13:58:06 <boily> that wouldn't surprise me. once got tired counting bites after some day during a vacation.
13:58:23 <boily> I think we were camping in Connecticut or something.
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14:00:35 <boily> also, bœrjan matin!
14:01:55 <mauris> @tell ais523 i remember which way around -~ and ~- work by looking which way the squiggle points. right is +1, left is -1
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14:07:51 <boily> the Tonsil A has "sqiggle" for "~".
14:12:57 <mauris> @tell ais523 also créée is totally a (common) word! dutch has "zeeën" which is similarly typo-looking and means "seas"
14:13:34 <mauris> @tell ais523 that ridiculous welsh place name has "llll" in it i guess, but i wonder if there's a less contrived example (although the welsh would count it as two letters, ll+ll)
14:17:40 <boily> of course créée is a word. it has two «é» to make sure it's real! the more diacritics, the realer the word.
14:19:33 <boily> how is it pronounced?
14:19:47 <b_jonas> the way it's written I guess
14:20:20 <fizzie> I don't think Finnish has any word with more than two of the same character repeated consecutively. But there were mentions of some other oddities I found when looking for one, like five consecutive double letters ("liikkeessään") and 14 consecutive "dots" ("pääjääjää").
14:20:57 <fizzie> As in, a compound? No, neither of those are compound words.
14:21:35 <b_jonas> many consecutive dots... yeah, there was some funny word with lots of dots in Hungarian. they look especially funny in handwriting styles where "ü" and "ii" looks exactly the same
14:24:10 <b_jonas> Hungarian has specific rules that forbid three consecutive copies of the same consonant, so they're always reduced to two or written with a hyphen, probably because three wouldn't be pronounced differently from two anyway
14:25:36 <fizzie> "liikkeessään" is formed approximately as "liike" (motion, shop) -> "liike" + "-ssä" = "liikkeessä" (inessive case + some mutation) -> "liikkeessä" + "-n" -> "liikkeessään" (inflection for third-person singular), e.g. "in his/her shop".
14:25:53 <b_jonas> so we have words like “tollal” (which should really be “tolllal”) and “sakk-kör” (which should be “sakkkör”, the hyphen is completely redundant but the rules ask for it anyway)
14:25:58 <fizzie> Okay, I guess pääjääjää is a bit of a compound, pää + jääjä + inflection.
14:26:43 <b_jonas> “tollal” sort of makes sense because it's pronounced like that anyway, and “Papp-pal” is fine as well, but the “sakk-kör” is a pointless rule just to make spelling harder to learn
14:28:32 <fizzie> Finnish compound words insert a hyphen if the same vowel occurs on both sides, which doesn't happen for same consonants. Sadly, we only have double vowels at word ends/beginnings, never double consonants, otherwise you could get triplicate letters. As it is, you can only get stuff like "takaa-ajaja" with a hyphen.
14:29:33 <b_jonas> I wonder if it's possible to get a tripled vowel in a Hungarian word
14:30:11 <b_jonas> I should try to make up some compound like that
14:30:43 <b_jonas> using "Hawaii" would be cheating I guess
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14:45:00 <fizzie> Oh, we do have consonant elision in some case forms, which does end up in a triple vowel, but the convention is to put an apostrophe in there. So you get from "vaaka" (scale) e.g. the genitive "vaa'an" or the plural "vaa'at".
14:47:30 <fizzie> And I think there's something special in the pronunciation too, like a glottal stop or at least some sort of stress thing. It's not just a super-long /ɑ/.
14:48:40 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] I think by the freenode rules you should have called it ##esocrypt, hope this doesn't create any trouble
14:49:35 <oerjan> also, i have an urge to swat everyone for not mentioning that
14:50:33 <oerjan> Hawaii also has a glottal stop, in the original
14:50:34 <boily> I think you meant "swaaat" hth
14:50:58 <oerjan> boily: what, mixing conversations? how rude!
14:51:26 <fizzie> /ʋɑːːt/ is maybe how a Finnish person would pronounce an incredulous flat "what.", except I don't think ːː is proper IPA notation. The Wikipedia table has just "long", "half-long" and "extra-short", there's no "extra-long".
14:53:45 <boily> “[The sign ː] may be doubled for an extra-long sound...”
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15:01:59 <b_jonas> I thought it was somethink like /e/, /eˑ/, /eː/, /eːˑ/, /eːː/ for increasing lengths
15:02:27 <b_jonas> but only two length are differentiated in most languages so we just use /e/ and /eː/
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15:14:20 <oerjan> <Walpurgisnacht> Replace the entire beer with lime <-- i am pretty sure i am one of the people who would _not_ find this an improvement
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15:15:47 <mauris> i made a tiny cfluviurrh interpreter in ruby https://bpaste.net/show/6314e48df018
15:16:15 <oerjan> i think hppavilion[1] is breaking a fundamental rule of esolanging
15:16:27 <oerjan> "you cannot manufacture interest in esolangs"
15:16:46 <boily> avoid success at all cost?
15:17:07 <oerjan> no, it is possible to succeed, but only by accident
15:17:23 <oerjan> also hard work i guess
15:17:50 <oerjan> but you cannot _expect_ others to take interest.
15:20:22 <oerjan> iow i predict both his new channel and his new mailing list to fade away shortly
15:20:51 <fizzie> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
15:21:10 <fizzie> I don't think that's entirely true, though.
15:21:19 <fizzie> For the horse-and-water case, I mean.
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15:23:16 <oerjan> you just need a sufficiently powerful hose
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15:29:43 <mroman> theer's a new esolang channel?
15:30:34 <oerjan> ok it's not for languages, but encryption
15:30:48 <mroman> There's no better esoteric encryption system than using the discrete logarithm
15:31:08 <oerjan> you're just not thinking quantum enough hth
15:31:22 <mroman> g^a = x MOD m, a is the plaintext, (g,m) is the key, x is the cipher text
15:32:56 <mroman> I'call it "you ain't decrypting shit"-system
15:33:19 <mroman> even if I give you the key, you will need a lot of effort to decrypt it.
15:35:49 <oerjan> i think it's generally assumed for an encryption system that the _creator_ should be able to decrypt it.
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15:47:09 <boily> I like fungotcoding. you spew off enough nonsense to be picked by fungot. eventually, the recipient will have invoked fungot enough that it will have generated the original message.
15:47:09 <fungot> boily: be sure to take certain kinds of it are
15:48:09 <MDude> That's good advice fungot.
15:48:09 <fungot> MDude: the original monkey king series?
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15:49:08 <boily> the Original Infinite Fungot Theorem.
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15:52:12 <oerjan> <izabera> http://endless.horse/ <-- i approve
15:53:05 <oerjan> boily: it would work better if fizzie ever regenerated the irc style
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15:55:28 <HackEgo> GoToTell: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:55:34 <boily> fizzie: do you have regenerate?
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16:12:38 <mroman> @tell oerjan Don't tell me how my esocrypt system is supposed to work .
16:12:55 <mroman> This oerjan is killing my imagination.
16:13:07 <mroman> @tell oerjan #nocreativity
16:13:31 <mroman> This hashtag should emphasize how serious I am about this.
16:13:43 <boily> "This oerjan"? there are multiple oerjans out there?
16:15:55 <mroman> boily: There's always an equal opposite oerjan
16:16:34 <boily> mroman: I think an opposite oerjan is an int-e hth
16:24:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43591&oldid=38325 * R.e.s. * (+620) /* Turing-completeness of BCT without arbitrary memory string as input? */
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17:13:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43592&oldid=41104 * R.e.s. * (+704) BCT remains TC even if the initial data-string is aways just a single 1; remove reference to defunct website
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17:23:15 <Wright> Are there any esolangs based on tag systems (cyclic or not) besides Platts and BCT?
17:23:58 <Slereah__> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag
17:25:55 <Slereah__> Cyclic tags are one of those things that are done a lot because it's very simple
17:26:10 <Wright> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag exists, too.
17:26:26 <Slereah__> Cyclic tags, brainfuck, logical combinators, cellular automatons
17:29:58 <Wright> Yeah, a brainfuck interpreter is usually one of the first things I write in a new language
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17:52:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cood]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43593 * 191.248.34.240 * (+5484) creating page
17:52:08 <fizzie> @tell boily No, I'm too afraid.
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17:58:57 <oren> language where before interpreting, the parse tree is height-balanced.
17:59:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43594&oldid=43543 * 191.248.34.240 * (+11) /* C */ cood added
18:00:53 <oren> x+y*z+3 -> (x+y)*(z+3)
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18:06:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43595&oldid=43540 * 74.15.57.112 * (+139)
18:06:25 * int-e eyes the topic... damn, so much for that question.
18:11:46 <int-e> (Actually I'd like to questions the legitimacy of questioning the legitimacy of that question.)
18:26:25 <shachaf> There is no questioning in the topic.
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18:28:38 <oren> what is with this bullshit
18:28:59 <oren> they display 3d videos with left on top and right below it!?!?!?
18:29:41 <int-e> who's "they"? ... and do they want a wide screen experience?
18:30:52 <int-e> speculating, it makes sense for hardware that switches polarity for the whole screen (it would display the video at twice the nominal frame rate).
18:32:42 <oren> well in this case I guess "they" woudl be the authors of the mplayer plugin
18:34:05 <oren> however, the real bullshit, is that someone noticed they did this and then relied on it, to encode a 2d video as 3d to avoid the copyright gestapo
18:34:08 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m890zzNKoGM&feature=html5_3d
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18:58:05 <MDude> Would it make sense to just toss my Firstr profile on the chan?
19:04:28 <newsham> https://github.com/peterferrie/brainfuck6502/blob/master/bf6502.s
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19:10:16 <oren> google you have failed me
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20:33:15 <Taneb> I haven't seen a single other human being today
20:33:27 <Taneb> In fact I do not think I've seen another animal
20:33:44 <Taneb> Feeling pretty lonely :(
20:35:02 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Sun Jul 26 21:35:03
20:35:17 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't think I've seen any flie
20:35:47 <shachaf> you should come to california. lots of humans here.
20:36:09 <shachaf> and poutine, though maybe it's not very good
20:36:13 <Taneb> California is far away
20:36:24 <Taneb> And I could conceivably make poutine here
20:36:52 <Taneb> How does poutine differ from what I would call "cheesy chips"?
20:37:42 <shachaf> Unfortunately the gravy is usually not vegetarian.
20:38:04 <Taneb> I am not fond of gravy
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20:38:13 <Taneb> Unless it is on really dry meat that needs the taste
20:38:39 <shachaf> ok well there are things that aren't poutine too
20:38:45 <shachaf> so that pretty much covers it
20:38:57 <Taneb> There are things here that aren't poutine, too
20:39:14 <Taneb> Some humans, I believe
20:39:19 <Taneb> They are just good at hiding
20:40:22 <Taneb> Also like two rivers with four letter names
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20:40:47 <ais523> the UK is full of rivers with four letter names
20:41:58 <shachaf> There are some here too, though.
20:42:10 <shachaf> We didn't miss it. No need to announce.
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20:42:31 <hppavilion[1]> I was just looking for a way to announce my presence
20:42:56 <hppavilion[1]> Because I'm not programmed to be introduced automatically
20:43:06 <Taneb> ais523, what's Birmingham's river?
20:43:23 <ais523> Taneb: the one that goes through Birmingham is the Rea
20:43:35 <Taneb> That does not have four letters
20:44:17 <fizzie> Thames has four letters, when it's called Isis.
20:44:20 <ais523> it eventually flows into the River Tame, still technically inside Birmingham
20:44:22 <ais523> and that has four letters
20:44:48 <Taneb> York has the Foss which flows into the Ouse in York
20:44:57 <Taneb> The Ouse later flows into the Hull which is not in York
20:46:07 <Taneb> Then the Hull becomes the Humber which is neither in York nor 4 letters long
20:46:21 <ais523> most of the ones that actually go to the sea have longer names, for some reason
20:46:53 <Taneb> The river I'm most familiar with is the Tyne, which goes right to the sea
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20:59:10 <lambdabot> mroman said 4h 46m 32s ago: Don't tell me how my esocrypt system is supposed to work .
20:59:10 <lambdabot> mroman said 4h 46m 3s ago: #nocreativity
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21:16:18 <Taneb> Do you know of a PDF reader that can take command line input?
21:18:43 <Taneb> Thanks, I'll try that
21:28:12 <oren> Wait a second, the Humber? the Humber is a river in Toronto, not England!!!
21:29:01 <oren> it's where Humber College is
21:30:01 <hppavilion[1]> Would it be appropriate to create a page on the Standard Streams for educational purposes for designers, provided that a few esoteric streams are added?
21:30:50 <ais523> oren: lots of places in North America are named after places in the UK
21:32:54 <oren> what is a standard stream? you mean like in C++?
21:33:24 <oren> those are FILE*'s not streams
21:33:38 <oren> you probably are thinking of cout cin and cerr
21:33:54 <oren> which are ostreams and istreams
21:34:21 <ais523> oren: C++'s abstractions around streams are called "streams"; C's abstraction is called "FILE *"
21:34:33 <ais523> the streams themselves are normally called stdin/stdout/stderr, though
21:35:51 <oerjan> we have articles on Stacks and Queues, so why not (and they're not particularly esoteric)
21:36:47 <oerjan> btw name should probably be in the singular
21:37:13 <oren> ais523: I think that's not exactly right, since the abstraction is over UNIX file descriptors or Windows Consoles?
21:37:47 <ais523> oren: on Windows it doesn't have to be a console, it could be a file redirection
21:38:43 <oren> mhm true. but either way, it's not an abstraction over a stream? a 'stream' is the abstraction.
21:40:06 <oerjan> don't forget the bit bucket hth
21:40:13 <hppavilion[1]> Esoerr: When something in an Esolang goes in an expected way, you are alerted here
21:40:17 <oerjan> important for reversible langs
21:41:08 <oerjan> so it's for complaining to the program?
21:42:12 <oren> oerjan: you might be onto something there. suppose you have a pipe series like
21:42:25 <oren> A <ifile | B >ofile
21:42:52 <oren> Then A should be able to report errors, which B can handle transparently
21:43:24 <oerjan> hm we need stdpraise and stdpraisein too
21:45:02 <oerjan> for a new, positively oriented paradigm
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21:54:56 <hppavilion[1]> stderrin, stdyay, and stdyayin are not the esoteric streams, btw. They are the Extended Standard Streams
22:01:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stream]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43596 * Hppavilion1 * (+3232) Created Page
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22:07:01 <hppavilion[1]> It lists non-esoteric and non-standard streams that a language may use
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22:11:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stream]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43597&oldid=43596 * Hppavilion1 * (+1009) Added utility streams, not sure if this should be kept.
22:18:13 <Sgeo> nortti, do you know where I can read Seven Crimes and Punishments? I want to learn about the end of the world, and I think that story is it
22:18:26 <Sgeo> Although afaik all songs so far only approach the end of the world
22:23:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EthanBierlein * New user account
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22:39:31 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> How does poutine differ from what I would call "cheesy chips"? <-- iiuc there is no potato in poutine, and the cheese is not _ordinary_ cheese hth
22:40:18 <oerjan> @tell Taneb oops i'm wrong on the first part
22:40:37 <oerjan> next time, google _first_ twsh
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22:48:08 <oerjan> `learn The Rea is the river flowing through Birmingham. It is jealous of the other rivers having four letters.
22:48:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'rea': The Rea is the river flowing through Birmingham. It is jealous of the other rivers having four letters.
22:48:59 <int-e> "to write some history"
22:49:36 <int-e> ifaa - I find acrynyms amusing
22:49:51 <int-e> but I cannot spell them correctly.
22:50:28 <fizzie> @tell ais523 To be fair, the C things are called "streams" too. "The types declared [by <stdio.h>] are -- FILE which is an object type capable of recording all the information needed to control a *stream* --" (C11 7.21.1p2);
22:50:32 <fizzie> @tell ais523 ... "-- stderr, stdin, stdout which -- point to the FILE objects associated, respectively, with the standard error, input, and output *streams*." (C11 7.21.1p3)
22:50:52 <fizzie> (Also, chapter 7.21.2 is titled "Streams".)
22:51:10 <oerjan> i have no file but i must stream
22:51:49 <oerjan> why can't i remember that it's and, not but
22:54:10 <shachaf> those words have the same logical meaning hth
22:54:44 <oerjan> yes but when mangling quotes it's important to mangle only the necessary bits hth
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22:58:28 <BotLol> never though I'd be here
22:58:32 <int-e> oerjan: one kamikaze attack yearly? perhaps I should sleep instead, this isn't getting anywhere.
22:59:08 <HackEgo> BotLol: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:00:17 <ais523> when's the last time anyone used the regular `welcome, non-ironically?
23:00:29 <shachaf> oerjan: I thought that sentence was referring to the film _Anaconda_, which I've never seen.
23:00:42 <shachaf> I did see the cover in another language, though.
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23:01:13 <int-e> ais523: I don't know. I thought we never use that one because it's too plain.
23:01:19 <ais523> but it's the most sensible
23:01:21 <ais523> the rest are showing off
23:01:31 <shachaf> But I guess it's a famous science fiction story instead.
23:01:33 <ais523> really I'd delete all the `welcome variants but the foreign-language ones if I could
23:02:01 <int-e> I like `relcome since it looks just like `welcome to me ;-)
23:02:21 <fizzie> I like relcome because it's so whimsical.
23:02:23 <ais523> int-e: same, I also have colours filtered out
23:02:27 <int-e> "send goats to me?" why would I do that?
23:02:27 <ais523> shachaf: but I'd just get reverted
23:02:45 <fizzie> ais523: Probably not at the moment, because I still haven't fixed reverting.
23:03:17 <shachaf> ais523: I think people went overboard with all the welcome variations.
23:03:23 * int-e tries to find a Schaf instead. Or some Schlaf...
23:03:27 <shachaf> I would not revert most of them.
23:03:59 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ blessyou \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ cAt \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins
23:04:14 <HackEgo> ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥ
23:04:22 <shachaf> It makes sense that oerjan would like famous science fiction stories, being famous himself.
23:04:42 <MDude> But is he a science fiction story?
23:05:37 <HackEgo> ais523 tswett tswett oerjan elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull ion ion ion
23:06:24 <shachaf> `` hg log bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ | grep summary:
23:06:26 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> revert 999 \ summary: <ion> (unknown command) \ summary: <ion> (unknown command) \ summary: <ion> (unknown command)
23:06:46 <shachaf> I'm typing on my phone so it's hard to investigate further.
23:07:35 <oren> ｔｈｏｓｅ ｗｅｒｅｎ’ｔ ｗｉｄｅ ｃｈａｒａｃｔｅｒｓ ｔｈｏｕｇｈ
23:08:41 <oren> ｏｒ ｒａｔｈｅｒ， ｔｈｅｙ ｗｅｒｅｎ’ｔ ｏｆ ｔｈｅ ｒｉｇｈｔ ｃａｓｅ？
23:09:14 <oren> Ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ ｔｏ ｔｈｅ ｉｎｔｅｒｎａｔｉｏｎａｌ ｈｕｂ ｆｏｒ．．．
23:09:28 <shachaf> Fullwidth characters in English conversation are kind of annoying and hard to read.
23:09:42 <shachaf> Presumably that's why that entry was deleted.
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23:10:30 <oren> Ｔｈｅ’ｙｒｅ ｎｏｔ ｈａｒｄ ｔｏ ｒｅａｄ
23:10:30 <oerjan> shachaf: you're assuming i'd actually _read_ that famous SF story. what i've read _about_ it doesn't encourage me.
23:11:27 <shachaf> I don't think I assumed that.
23:11:53 <shachaf> Not knowing its title isn't good evidence that you've read it.
23:12:09 <int-e> Ｔhｅy ａrｅ ａnｎoｙiｎg tｈoｕgｈ.
23:14:11 <int-e> (it very much depends on the font)
23:15:31 <fizzie> Did we have a 𝖜𝖊𝖑𝖈𝖔𝖒𝖊 and friends?
23:16:39 <fizzie> There's like 13 different "fonts" in that block.
23:16:54 <int-e> (it's hard to make out these symbols on http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/welcome.png ;-) )
23:17:57 <fizzie> Mathematical bold, italic, bold italic, script, bold script, fraktur, double-struck, bold fractur, sans-serif, sans-serif bold, sans-serif italic, sans-serif bold italic, and monospace.
23:18:28 <int-e> Yeah. Some day I'll read the rationale for that particular addition.
23:23:33 <Jafet> Tｈen tｈｅrｅ aｒｅ tｈe aｃaｄeｍic pａｐerｓ ｆｏrmaｔted liｋｅ ｔhiｓ.
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23:32:42 <Taneb> I may have the only selfie on a gopher server in the WORLD
23:33:05 <Taneb> I am going to head to bed now
23:33:39 <oren> ｗhａt’ｓ wｒoｎg ｗiｔh thｅkｅrｎｉnｇ?？
23:34:29 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], you should look my up on the Wiki and see how my family tend to feel about bad kerning
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23:34:32 <Taneb> Anyway I am off now
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23:43:20 <hppavilion[1]> It executes the mainloop once every few seconds oh wait nevermind