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01:01:47 <doesthiswork> have you folk already seen google's intercal styleguide?
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01:22:05 <shachaf> Better to test your IRC client outside of a channel full of people.
01:23:24 <shachaf> You should use any channel I'm not in.
01:23:33 <shachaf> You can make your own if you like.
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01:26:52 <hppavilion[1]> Now I just need to parse and prettyprint inbound ones
01:28:36 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: are you forgetting the : before the message in a PRIVMSG?
01:28:57 <oerjan> because that might make it ignore all but the first word
01:38:08 <MDude> I immediately guessed that #test is used as a channel for testing things, and was also right.
01:39:24 <MDude> Now to make a browser extentsion that opens a channel window for every hashtag you view on twitter.
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01:40:33 <MDude> But hppavillion[1] had in fact started timing out before I even started talking.
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01:52:06 <oerjan> i guess he shall be forever doomed to speak in single-word messages, then.
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03:05:28 <FreeFull> I have an old IRC client I wrote sitting around
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03:31:44 <oren> Looks like Toronto Hydro decided to turn my power back on
03:32:59 <oren> idiots decided "oh lots of money for Pan-Am Games that noone cares about, no money for basic infrastructure like redundant power systems"
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04:47:46 <Sgeo_> "The Itanium is a 64-bit EPIC architecture. EPIC stands for Explicitly Parallel Instruction Computing, a design in which work is offloaded from the processor to the compiler. For example, the compiler decides which operations can be safely performed in parallel and which memory fetches can be productively speculated. This relieves the processor from having to make these decisions on the fly, thereby allowing it to focus on the real work of
04:48:05 <Sgeo_> Why shouldn't the CPU just trust the compiler to make that decision, instead of whatever magic it does now?
04:48:29 <Sgeo_> And/or a more expressive assembly
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04:58:55 <oren> compilers already have too much work to do
05:01:29 <oren> Instead of doing all this super smart memory caching, it would be better if they just added like 10 KB of registers for the compiler to work with.
05:04:08 <oren> that also fits into a compiler's current options
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05:10:50 <oren> idea: each instruction is 32 bits with an optional 64 bit address as argument. 12 bits are the opcode/addressing mode, 10 bits select a register, 10 bits select another register.
05:11:43 <oren> you have 1024 64-bit registers.
05:16:30 <oren> then you have instructions to "page write" or "page read" 64 registers at a time to/from memory.
05:17:05 <oren> (these instructions can be pipelined with instructions that don't use that particular reigster page)
05:18:50 <oren> screw it i'm tired
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07:16:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Rules]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43603 * Hppavilion1 * (+488) Created Page
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07:22:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric data structure]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43604 * Hppavilion1 * (+300) Created Page
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07:24:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43605&oldid=43602 * Hppavilion1 * (+201) Responded to question
07:26:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43606&oldid=43605 * Hppavilion1 * (+93) Signed
07:26:52 <GoToTell> You're very enthousiastic about esolangs, hppavilion[1].
07:27:33 <hppavilion[1]> You'll notice that the last 2 edits were actually to talk pages
07:27:45 <hppavilion[1]> And that the second one was just correcting a mistake on the first :P
07:29:00 <GoToTell> which esolang was your first introduction to the subject?
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07:29:59 <GoToTell> One of the few that has a wiki page to itselft.
07:30:14 <GoToTell> You tried making an interpreter for it?
07:31:01 <hppavilion[1]> The only parser I've ever written was a Shunting-yard algorithm
07:33:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Esoteric Operating System]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43607&oldid=43599 * Hppavilion1 * (+184) Signed
07:34:51 <GoToTell> what do you see as the difference between those teo?
07:36:35 <hppavilion[1]> TRUE esolangs are made to be esoteric, and have more than just weird syntax
07:37:00 <hppavilion[1]> Lolcode isn't really a true esolang because it just uses strange keywords
07:37:30 <hppavilion[1]> Aside from the lulziness, it's just a crappy programming language
07:37:57 <hppavilion[1]> My language is also a Weirdlang because it doesn't do anything new, and it's just a normal language with strange syntax
07:38:58 <hppavilion[1]> To be an Esolang, you have to have something more than just strange syntax. You have to have confuddling semantics or novel structure
07:39:59 <GoToTell> I mean, most just group them all under esolangs, but they are different.
07:40:53 <hppavilion[1]> Weirdlangs look weird, esolangs are truly, well, esoteric
07:41:42 <GoToTell> In the example you just wrote though, it's an interesting Q of how you would write nested brackets.
07:45:09 <hppavilion[1]> Brackets are actually used as delimeters in walscript
07:46:25 <GoToTell> and it's while & endwhile that determines the scope.
07:47:01 <hppavilion[1]> And I think it's actually a Tangle-Bracket language itself, at least in my implementation
07:47:38 <hppavilion[1]> But yes, while and endwhile deterermine what gets looped, not the brackets
07:48:34 <GoToTell> My mind is full of javascript, so I see brackets I think scope.
07:49:42 <hppavilion[1]> But mine have to be at _least_ weirdlangs for me to make them
07:51:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Timesig]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43608 * Hppavilion1 * (+159) Created Page
07:53:17 <GoToTell> Here's an article I remember reading on "Vocabulary-Oriented and Behavior-Oriented Esolangs" http://esoteric.codes/post/113253944074/vocabulary-oriented-and-behavior-oriented-esolangs
07:54:06 <GoToTell> might help with how to charecterize the difference.
07:56:33 <hppavilion[1]> There's syntax, semantics, structure, anything else?
07:57:36 <GoToTell> I don't know enough to give a close answer to that.
07:57:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:O]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43609 * JayCampbell * (+98) kudos
07:58:43 <GoToTell> the wiki has a catergory page with stack, queues, cell... and so on.
08:00:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Weirdlang]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43610 * Hppavilion1 * (+934) Created Page
08:02:01 <mroman> you should make a language with no delimiters.
08:02:12 <mroman> and make whitespaces illegal
08:02:50 <mroman> while(a>b&&c>0){a+=bc--}
08:05:25 <mroman> you could get rid of {} by stating how many statements in the block are
08:05:32 <mroman> while(a>b&&c>0)2a+=bc--
08:05:41 <mroman> which tells the parser that the next two statements belong to a block
08:16:33 <hppavilion[1]> The least appropriately named esolang ever: BodyFuck
08:16:41 <fizzie> Go removes the () from constructions like those, because the cond is always one expression.
08:16:58 <fizzie> Still keeps the braces, though.
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08:36:32 <mroman> yeah () is actually redundant
08:36:41 <mroman> just parse one expression and you're fine :)
08:43:41 <fizzie> I seem to recall that in Go the braces are actually part of the syntax of the control structure, unlike in C, where the body can be any single statement, and the braces are part of the compound statement syntax.
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08:47:09 <fizzie> Related note: for consistency, C's function bodies should really do the same. int add1(int x) return x + 1; should be just fine.
08:53:08 <olsner> I think c++ allows the function body to be a try block, but not other statements
09:00:58 <fizzie> The old-style function definitions aren't perhaps all that friendly to the single-statement style.
09:03:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Adrianton3 * New user account
09:04:17 <fizzie> The other day I wrote a contrived example of a switch with a non-compound-statement body.
09:04:20 <fizzie> for (int i = 0, j = 0; i < 2; i++, j = 0) switch (i) do case 0: { putchar('a'); case 1: putchar('b'); } while (j++ < i);
09:04:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43611&oldid=42953 * Adrianton3 * (+7) /* Updated a link in the external resources */
09:04:58 <fizzie> I kind of like the "switch (i) do case 0:" part, it looks like code you'd expect from fungot.
09:04:58 <fungot> fizzie: they don't want people to search it for me. i should wake
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11:27:56 <FireFly> It reminds me of Duff's device
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11:39:56 <fizzie> In general, you can replace if (x == 42) foo(); for an integral x by switch (x) case 42: foo();
11:42:03 <b_jonas> yeah, and you can replace while(x)stmt with for(;x;)stmt and it's not even any longer, so the while keyword is quite redundant
11:43:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: however, if statements are useful when the body contains a case label for an outer switch
11:43:21 <b_jonas> in those cases you can't replace them with a switch so easily, though you can still replace them with a switch-goto in C
11:44:43 <b_jonas> as in, replace if(cond)stmt with {switch(cond)case 0:goto skip;stmt skip:;}
11:46:01 <b_jonas> also, more importantly, you can't replace an if with just a plain switch-case if the body contains "break" statements
11:46:17 <b_jonas> in that case too you can use switch-goto
11:49:22 <fizzie> Yes, I agree that if statements where the body contains a case label for an enclosing switch are good to have.
11:49:45 <fizzie> It's kind of like conditional fallthrough.
11:55:39 <b_jonas> I was sort of thinking on a small language with syntax somewhat similar to C (pre-C99), but that has if() and for(;;) but doesn't have while or switch, and make it such that it can be parsed without knowing the keywords, so you can substitute whatever translated keywords you want (subject to tokenizing rules) and it will mean the same
11:56:44 <b_jonas> it can only have three actually different basic types though, eg. int, unsigned char, unsigned long int
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11:57:30 <b_jonas> but three basic types should be enough. you can still declare pointers as unsigned char * because the non-letter punctuation is fixed
11:57:41 <b_jonas> only the alnum keywords are replacable
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12:10:07 <mroman> you could replace if with for as well
12:10:28 <mroman> for(;x;){/*do*/break;}
12:11:04 <mroman> hm. probably not so practical due to the else
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13:18:05 <Taneb> Well, that was a long lunch
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13:37:42 <shachaf> Taneb: Did it start around http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-02-18#133928Taneb ?
13:38:51 <Taneb> It was a very long lunch
13:39:12 <Taneb> (fwiw, "Late Post 'Not That Late'" is still my favourite ever headline)
13:53:49 <FreeFull> b_jonas: You don't need if, ?: will do
13:54:07 <FreeFull> b_jonas: And maybe you could have for loops where the syntax is just (;;)
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14:13:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43612&oldid=43606 * Rottytooth * (+281) responded to comment
14:14:39 <fizzie> FreeFull: Having only ?: and for (;;) for control constructs is really pretty awkward, because there's no way to do a conditional break (or goto) with only ?:.
14:15:09 <fizzie> Sure, you *could* get things done, but it wouldn't be very pleasant.
14:15:59 <FreeFull> You could always change semantics a bit though
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14:19:30 <fizzie> Of course GCC would let you write for (;;) { ...; x ? ({ break; }) : 0; ... } or even void *cont = &&cont, *done = &&done; cont: for (;;) { ...; goto *(x ? done : cont); } done:;
14:20:39 <oerjan> that's what pascal did
14:20:55 <oerjan> only one exit point per structure
14:21:16 <Taneb> fizzie, could you use recursion as a sneaky extra control structure?
14:21:41 <oerjan> hm i guess if then else excepted
14:23:57 <fizzie> Taneb: Yes. You might have stack-related problems, though.
14:29:41 <mroman> also disallow functions .
14:29:45 <mroman> just use computed jumps, yes.
14:29:51 <mroman> nothing else allowed :)
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14:32:58 <fizzie> The for sounds a bit superfluous at that point.
14:35:14 <Taneb> Does C have computed gotos?
14:35:44 <b_jonas> FreeFull: you can't quite change semantics. The point is that it sohuld be like OC, in that it's self-hosting and the compiler is written in sort of the intersection of the language and C, so you can boostrap it with a C compiler then compile it with itself.
14:36:04 <b_jonas> So you can add extensions, sure, but they complicate writing the compiler.
14:36:08 <izabera> do you think i can call a language 'c-like' if this is a syntax error? x += - y
14:36:42 <b_jonas> izabera: I didn't say C-like language. I said language with C-like synatax.
14:36:54 <b_jonas> And you can still say the language has C-like syntax when x += - y is an error
14:38:34 <izabera> oh wait my parser is choking on x += -3
14:38:43 <izabera> this is a problem isn't it?
14:40:49 <b_jonas> dunno, depends on what the specs are
14:41:22 <b_jonas> what are you trying to parse?
14:42:59 <izabera> trying to write a language that's not esoteric so it's kind of off topic here
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14:53:30 <mroman> I think humanity lacks a special kind of martial arts.
14:53:46 <mroman> We don't know how to fight in zero gravity!
14:53:53 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C-family_programming_languages v g
14:54:07 <Taneb> mroman, we don't know how to do a lot of things in zero gravity
14:54:21 <mroman> Yeah, but fighting seems to be socially important.
14:55:02 <Taneb> Eh, it'll be a long time before zero gravity sees belligerent antagonists in close proximity
14:55:14 <mroman> Can you move in space without holding on to something?
14:55:17 <Taneb> Especially without a mediating force
14:55:21 <mroman> Like with a swimming movement?
14:56:07 <fizzie> I seem to recall hearing about that, plus that it's very inefficient.
14:56:17 <fizzie> mroman: You could spit to the other direction.
14:56:32 <fizzie> Or throw articles of clothing.
14:56:38 <mroman> apparentely viscosity of air isn't that good for moving
14:57:03 <mroman> you could swim, but it'd be horribly slow and inefficient.
14:57:03 <Phantom_Hoover> you're also going to have a hell of a time controlling your attitude
14:57:23 <mroman> also without friction holding you
14:57:26 <mroman> if you punch a guy in the face
14:57:29 <fizzie> For the airy case, you might want some sort of wings, like they have flippers for water.
14:57:30 <mroman> you'de be propelled backwards?
14:57:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, if you're attempting to fight someone in space, there's already an attitude problem somewhere
14:58:15 <mroman> so a grappling style is probably more suited for space fights
14:58:22 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, i mean you could just get your own little propellor jetpack
14:58:37 <Phantom_Hoover> bonus: you can fight people by doing the superman punch
14:58:51 <mroman> yeah if you have something to "jump off" from
14:59:00 <mroman> you could do matrix style fighting
14:59:38 <mroman> if we build a huge enough thing
14:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> imo we should wait 3 years until the messiah chris roberts releases his space fps and answers all our questions
14:59:45 <mroman> that thing has so much gravity it will suck light towards it
14:59:51 <mroman> so you could build a supermassive camera
15:00:03 <mroman> by actually capturing it
15:01:20 <mroman> you mean constructing artificial gravitational lens to take pictures of things that would be hidden behind something?
15:01:31 <oerjan> i'm now imagine flippers larger than the person
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15:01:57 <Phantom_Hoover> no i mean using the sun as a lens to gather more light from a distant object
15:02:09 <mroman> ok. List of sports that would not be fun in zero gravity
15:02:15 <mroman> Wikipedia so needs this
15:02:34 <fizzie> Would that be as-is, or with some modification?
15:02:34 <oerjan> also, for the attitude, might a shark-like fin help
15:02:42 <mroman> fizzie: minor modifications are allowed
15:02:53 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I don't think darts would be very fun
15:02:55 <mroman> so people can pull them selves using the rope around the bases
15:03:03 <Taneb> Then again, it'd probably be more fun than darts is normally
15:03:07 <fizzie> I'd like to see zero-gravity cycling with no modification or extra help.
15:03:34 <mroman> how would you sit on it?
15:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> i know some people who essentially made a submarine that way
15:03:45 <fizzie> Just people furiously pedaling and floating uncontrolledly.
15:03:46 <MDude> You wouldn't need to midify the rules to allow some changes to the bikes.
15:03:50 <Taneb> mroman, staying sat on it is the hard part
15:04:07 <fizzie> Taneb: They've got shoes that lock onto the pedals.
15:04:13 * oerjan is still waiting for that picture of a black hole that was promised the other year
15:04:26 <MDude> You could keep the bike on a metal surface by having magnetic wheels.
15:04:36 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, are you sure you weren't just reading promotional material for interstellar
15:05:28 <MDude> If a black hole is lit form the back, you would bee able to see where the light isn't able to reach you due to the hole.
15:05:57 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it wasn't promotion but a blog
15:06:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean we know pretty well what we expect black holes to look like by now
15:06:33 <oerjan> http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/07/21/were-going-to-see-a-black-hole/
15:06:42 <mroman> weight lifting would probably be pretty useless in space?
15:07:13 <mroman> you'd need some sort of bungee cord
15:07:58 <mroman> usually the people on long space stays will have to do a lot of exercise on board to not loose to much muscle mass.
15:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, here, to tide you over http://sirxemic.github.io/Interstellar/
15:08:18 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: I thought they had something like that
15:08:19 <Taneb> mroman, I think that is generally more cardio stuff
15:08:30 <oerjan> i've heard about interstellar
15:08:31 <mroman> otherwise they probably couldn't even walk anymore when they come back after a few months?
15:08:55 <mroman> muscles vanish pretty quickly
15:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think it's cardio as much as keeping muscle tone
15:09:26 <mroman> three months in a cast and you're thigh are almost gone
15:10:32 <mroman> Taneb: I thought it's about keeping muscles.
15:10:40 <Taneb> I think you are right
15:11:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it took too long, i closed it
15:12:34 <Phantom_Hoover> though now that i've dusted this computer it runs surprisingly smoothly
15:14:17 <mroman> there's a nicolas cage move I haven't seen
15:18:56 <oerjan> i've got the moooovies like cage
15:19:53 <mroman> he's better than all sharknado movies together
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17:06:23 <zzo38> I have installed the threaded Apache MPM, but now it says the package for PHP is not threadsafe (I have some PHP files that I will need to be able to run)
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18:03:11 <ais523> what's up with this edit?: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=LOLCODE&diff=43600&oldid=42122
18:04:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Rules]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43613&oldid=43603 * Ais523 * (+158) [[Esolang:Policy]]
18:06:43 <ais523> (it's also an operator in GNU C)
18:07:10 <shachaf> ais523: The previous revision had a duplicate entry.
18:07:16 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=LOLCODE&oldid=42122
18:07:31 <zzo38> Yes, an operator of GNU C that I tend to use often
18:07:47 <ais523> I've actually never used it
18:07:59 <ais523> although I use the Perl equivalents, || and //, quite a lot
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19:14:02 <izabera> can you produce a regex that matches c style strings?
19:14:26 <Taneb> coppro, what is your thesis about?
19:15:28 <ais523> and the double quotes match themselves literally
19:15:43 <ais523> \\. matches \\, then \\. matches \"
19:15:58 <coppro> Taneb: graph structure theory and logic
19:17:09 <izabera> i was trying with "(.*[^\\]|)(\\\\)*" but it got too complex
19:19:14 <izabera> and sorry for being stupid
19:24:26 <b_jonas> ais523: almost, but no. that matches a newline between double quotes, which is not a valid string literal.
19:24:31 <APic> Humans do not need to excuse themselves for Stupidity. It resembles an evil inheritable Disease.
19:26:52 <ais523> are formfeeds legal inside C literals? might need to ban those too
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19:34:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Rules]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43614&oldid=43613 * Hppavilion1 * (+68) Requested link
19:34:30 <b_jonas> ais523: then of course there's the problem that "\k" isn't a valid string literal either
19:36:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Policy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43615&oldid=30569 * Hppavilion1 * (+343) /* Expand article scope */ new section
19:39:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Policy]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43616&oldid=30638 * Hppavilion1 * (+78) Clarified where articles can go. (That is, specified that only pages in the _main_ namespace have to be on Esolangs, as I'm pretty sure user namepace pages are generally users)
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19:40:00 <hppavilion[1]> For the record, I didn't change the meaning of the page, I just made it more clear
19:42:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43617&oldid=43612 * Hppavilion1 * (+276) Answered a question.
19:43:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43618&oldid=43617 * Hppavilion1 * (+92) Signed
19:45:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43619&oldid=43618 * Hppavilion1 * (+229) Clarified my answer
19:45:31 <shachaf> I think that changes the meaning.
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19:45:51 <shachaf> It's also less clear, but that might just be due to lack of proofreading.
19:46:16 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: What I meant to say was that the "Esolangs only as articles" rule only applied in the _main_ namespace
19:46:47 <hppavilion[1]> So no one will get upset from confusion when they first encounter a User: page
19:48:29 <hppavilion[1]> I think I might speak my own dialect of english that _no one else understands_ :P'
19:49:02 <hppavilion[1]> If you want to revert it or try to make my unclarity clear, please do
19:58:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Policy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43620&oldid=43616 * Hppavilion1 * (-78) Undo revision 43616 by Self (I was told it actually made it less clear and changed the meaning)
20:09:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folder]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43621&oldid=43052 * Hppavilion1 * (+524) Proved Folder TC
20:13:35 <tswett> So I've thought of a cryptographic problem.
20:14:13 <tswett> There are m people. How can they randomly select n people from themselves, such that each of the people selected knows exactly who has been selected, but each of the people not selected only knows that ey has not been selected?
20:14:49 <ais523> assuming that all communication is public?
20:15:08 <ais523> without that it's easy
20:15:15 <ais523> also, are we assuming that all these people are honest?
20:15:27 <zzo38> Is it possible to tell xterm to erase a picture from a specified area in the screen?
20:15:50 <ais523> actually, given the existence of private-key crypto
20:16:13 <tswett> They're not necessarily honest, but if they have all acted honestly, it must be possible for them to prove, after the fact, that they have acted honestly.
20:17:07 <tswett> Yeah, given the existence of private-key crypto, I don't think it matters whether all communication is public or not.
20:17:25 <tswett> Except that if all communication is public, then it's possible for a person to prove that they haven't communicated anything at all.
20:18:49 <tswett> Oh, and it's fine if it's possible for a person to ruin everything by not being honest—but if somebody does that, it will be impossible for em to prove after the fact that ey has acted honestly.
20:19:13 <tswett> And so everyone will assume that ey has *not* acted honestly, and force em to walk the plank.
20:19:30 <hppavilion[1]> 99999999999999999999999999999 bottles of beer on the wall
20:19:41 <tswett> There's a public source of random information handy; anyone can invoke it, and when they do, everyone sees the result.
20:19:50 <hppavilion[1]> 99999999999999999999999999998 bottles of beer on the wall!
20:20:28 <hppavilion[1]> If everyone has a number assigned to them... that won't work
20:21:04 <tswett> Maybe you could come up with one key pair corresponding to every possible selection of people.
20:21:13 <tswett> Reveal the public key, and give the private key to each of the people in the selection.
20:21:36 <tswett> Then, somehow, encrypt a message using a randomly chosen public key, without letting anyone know which public key was selected.
20:21:48 <Phantom_Hoover> if i can randomly pick the first person i think i can do the rest
20:22:02 <Phantom_Hoover> with the caveat that probably everyone has to draw a random number at once
20:22:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oh wait everyone's playing along right, there's no competitive/betrayal element is there
20:22:55 <tswett> Well, here are the properties the protocol must follow.
20:23:08 <hppavilion[1]> If no one is trying to break the system, then it isn't a very good cryptography problem :P
20:23:17 <Phantom_Hoover> hang on the public random number thing is fairly pointless
20:23:27 <tswett> If everyone behaves correctly, then the protocol must work properly, and after everything is finished, it must be possible for everyone to prove that they have behaved correctly.
20:23:52 <tswett> If someone behaves incorrectly, then the protocol need not work properly, but it must *not* be possible for that person to ever prove that ey has behaved correctly.
20:24:19 <hppavilion[1]> Is there some situation in the world in which this would be useful?
20:24:26 <tswett> Playing a game of "The Rebellion" when nobody trusts anybody.
20:24:27 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: there's this parlour game called Werewolf
20:24:33 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: The part that made it less clear was "them" instead of "the".
20:25:19 <hppavilion[1]> So what would the practical uses for this be though?
20:25:38 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway if we can randomly, privately pick one person it becomes pretty simple, they just pick another n-1 people at random
20:26:47 <hppavilion[1]> Encrypt the message "You have been selected" with one random person's public key
20:27:25 <ais523> if you don't count on the people being honest
20:27:30 <tswett> Yeah, given a collection of public keys, is it possible to encypt a message using a randomly chosen one of those keys, without letting anyone know which key it was?
20:27:35 <ais523> the problem is that the person making the selection will be able to decrypt any message directed at them
20:28:05 <ais523> what you do is you get one person to encrypt everyone's public key with their own private key
20:28:30 <ais523> doesn't work because if you produced a message yourself, you can decrypt it even without the key
20:28:45 <hppavilion[1]> So everybody has a private key and a less private key
20:29:09 <hppavilion[1]> And the private key can decrypt messages written with the less private key
20:29:23 <hppavilion[1]> Someone draws a less-private key from a hat and doesn't know who it belongs to
20:29:30 <b_jonas> tswett: how expensive can you allow it to be? if there's only a few public keys, you can encrypt the message with one of the keys and encrypt dummy empty messages of the same size with the other keys.
20:29:54 <b_jonas> tswett: the person who has the private keys will of course be able to tell.
20:30:51 <hppavilion[1]> Well I assume you just don't tell anybody your private-ish key
20:30:57 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so by "less private key", it sounds like you essentially mean "public key, except it's not necessarily revealed to everyone". Right?
20:32:04 <hppavilion[1]> And as a bonus, I don't think anybody but the encrypter can break the system
20:32:16 <Phantom_Hoover> the public key of it is then published, you put the private key into a hat with m-1 blank slips
20:32:28 <Phantom_Hoover> then everyone draws a slip and whoever gets the key is the handler, all fine
20:32:29 <tswett> How does the "putting in a hat" work? If everyone has a message, then how does everyone publish the message in such a way that nobody knows who sent which message?
20:33:12 <tswett> Hmm. I think there might be an optimized version of my method.
20:33:29 <Phantom_Hoover> wait for fuck's sake if you can draw from a hat you don't need keys at all, you just need a marked slip
20:34:02 <tswett> Everyone publishes eir own public key. Someone takes a message and randomly encrypts it with each public key in succession... wait, this is going to require anonymous sending.
20:34:30 <Phantom_Hoover> agree that everyone publishes a message every 5 minutes
20:35:22 <tswett> So we want to do "anonymous sending"—someone publishes a message in such a way that nobody knows who published it.
20:35:44 <tswett> If everyone publishes a message every five minutes, then how does the message get anonymized?
20:36:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought you meant sending messages such that nobody but the communicants know about it
20:36:13 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bSqEn8FtRh7iM8KYvOK8_DW03xAwjvAK0pIrR2RkO8U/edit?usp=sharing
20:36:24 <tswett> This anonymous sending isn't necessarily needed, though.
20:36:40 <hppavilion[1]> That'll make it easier to figure out what's going on
20:38:38 <tswett> So we come up with a public key corresponding to every possible selection.
20:38:52 <tswett> Everyone knows which selection corresponds to which public key.
20:39:04 <tswett> Uh, come to think of it, this doesn't quite work, but I'll continue anyway.
20:39:38 <Phantom_Hoover> again the problem reduces to the case where you need to pick one person from a group of m
20:40:07 <tswett> A designated person selects a random public key, in such a way that ey can later prove that it was actually selected randomly.
20:40:19 <tswett> The designated person then simply publishes a message encrypted using that public key.
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20:40:38 <tswett> Yeah, come to think of it, this isn't anything new.
20:41:15 <hppavilion[1]> Assuming that the participants know the value of n
20:42:17 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, er, wouldn't the designated person know who got selected then?
20:42:37 <tswett> Yeah, so "encrypt something with a randomly chosen key" is a sufficient, uh, tool.
20:43:28 <tswett> Now, I think "draw a message out of a hat and burn the other messages" may also be sufficient.
20:44:01 <tswett> If you have that, then each person can randomly choose a public key which contains em, encrypt something using that key, and put it into the hat.
20:44:29 <tswett> Of course, ey will have to be able to prove later that ey really selected it randomly.
20:45:02 <tswett> Actually, I don't think that's necessary.
20:45:17 <tswett> Each person can simply encrypt something using *every* public key which contains em.
20:45:24 <tswett> And then submit all of these into the hat.
20:45:38 <tswett> Then pick a random encrypted message out of the hat. Boom.
20:47:30 <hppavilion[1]> They probably must, given that one of them does the selecting
20:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover> once you have an anonymous handler you can do that stuff easily
20:48:15 <hppavilion[1]> But how does the handler know how many keys to choose?
20:48:33 <tswett> All participants know both m and n.
20:48:35 <Phantom_Hoover> have everyone publish a public key at the start, pick the handler
20:48:53 <Phantom_Hoover> the handler then proceeds according to some algorithm with their private key as input
20:49:08 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], just exclude that case, it works fine for n=m-2
20:49:10 <tswett> The lone unselected person knows nothing besides the fact that the selected people are the people other than emself.
20:49:54 <tswett> He isn't supposed to have any information besides the information that's supposed to be explicitly revealed to him.
20:49:57 <tswett> And sure enough, he doesn't.
20:50:52 <tswett> It just so happens that when n = m - 1, the information of who the selected people are *is* effectively explicitly revealed to him.
20:52:29 <Phantom_Hoover> so once again, how do you pick one person within the mentioned constraints
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21:21:26 <hppavilion[1]> Did you guys figure out the solution to the problem?
21:22:15 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I lost interest
21:22:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, we got it down to something a lot simpler by the end
21:22:43 <hppavilion[1]> Would you happen to know of any online database of problems like that I could read?
21:22:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Rules]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43622 * Oerjan * (+28) Since someone expected it here, make a redirect
21:27:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Help]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43623&oldid=37152 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Article names with forbidden characters */ I think this should be in code format
21:34:50 <tswett> Yeah, the problem seems to come down to hat-picking.
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22:23:08 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: What I meant to say was that the "Esolangs only as articles" rule only applied in the _main_ namespace <-- i am not sure that is true in either direction...
22:23:55 <shachaf> <oerjan> i like bugs. i like bugs! i like bugs. i like bugs. <-- i think i like bugs too!
22:23:57 <oerjan> as in, there are other things than esolangs allowed in the main space, and there are probably also things so off topic that we'd look sternly at someone filling their user pages with them
22:24:21 <oerjan> (especially if they made a lot of pages)
22:25:00 <oerjan> we already allow general CS stuff as long as its useful for esolanging
22:25:49 <oerjan> what we don't allow, because it'd get the site all out of focus, is non-esoteric _languages_
22:26:36 <shachaf> What about non-language esoterica?
22:26:38 <oerjan> (also, everything i've said here probably has at least one exception on the wiki already.)
22:27:19 <oerjan> shachaf: the boundaries exist but are _very_ vague, i think
22:28:17 <shachaf> Taneb: How did your lens talk go?
22:28:28 <Taneb> shachaf, seeing as it's tomorrow
22:28:44 <Taneb> I guess we'll find out
22:28:47 <oerjan> Taneb: just make sure to keep it focused hth
22:28:49 <shachaf> do you really expect me to keep track of things down to the last day
22:30:46 <Taneb> Get a wall calendar hth
22:31:22 <shachaf> even if i had a wallendar i probably wouldn't think to put your talk on it
22:31:32 <Taneb> Get multiple wall calenders hth
22:31:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, do I know who that is
22:32:33 <HackEgo> 240) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
22:32:42 <Taneb> I wonder how they are doing
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22:36:17 <boily> quinthellopia, hppavellon[1].
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22:38:03 <boily> I should updfate the wisdom...
22:40:50 <coppro> ais523: man, quake chat has been great today
22:40:58 <ais523> coppro: it's normally pretty good
22:41:12 <ais523> OTOH, there hasn't been much need for mod actions to keep it good
22:41:22 <coppro> it normally is, yeah, but it's been even better than usual imo
22:41:51 <ais523> how many unrelated IRC channels do we share right now?
22:42:08 <coppro> nethack, esoteric, nomic, gdq
22:42:11 <shachaf> Is quake chat what it sounds like?
22:42:13 <ais523> four, I forgot ##nomic
22:42:22 <coppro> I'm in three with boily
22:42:27 <b_jonas> shachaf: what does it sound like?
22:43:05 <b_jonas> ais523: does #nethack4 count as unrelated to #esoteric ?
22:43:11 <ais523> yes, despite the overlap
22:43:13 <coppro> but it's not unrelated to #nethack
22:43:23 <ais523> there's no real reason why the subjects should be connected
22:43:33 <ais523> I mean, there's a big ##nomic/#esoteric overlap too
22:43:44 <b_jonas> coppro: ah, you're just going by name. like the... ok, never mind
22:44:01 <coppro> b_jonas: no, by subject matter
22:44:19 <ais523> e.g. I consider #tasvideos and #hourglass to be connected
22:44:22 <ais523> even though the names are unrelated
22:44:33 <boily> I share four chännels with shachaf.
22:44:47 <ais523> diareses don't work like that
22:44:53 <shachaf> Well, it's more like two chаnnels.
22:44:56 <Taneb> I share 5 with shachaf, hah
22:45:04 <Taneb> But three sets of channels, I guess
22:45:32 <shachaf> Oh, Taneb isn't in one part of that channel.
22:45:46 <shachaf> Hasn't worked for a long time.
22:45:50 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I don't think HackEgo has access to the logs
22:46:00 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/pastlog: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ ls: cannot access ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
22:46:11 <Phantom_Hoover> does anyone remember who 'that `v fucker' was, i can't find them in the logs
22:46:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v: not found
22:46:55 <shachaf> Is it the same as |f`-`|f ?
22:47:24 <shachaf> Or just the same style of annoying nick?
22:49:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43624&oldid=38024 * Quintopia * (-28) knuth pronunciation is standard right?
22:49:30 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway the only other channel i'm consistently in is in another network, has maybe 30 people in it and is about a mod for an ancient game with no connection whatsoever to esolangs
22:50:14 <Phantom_Hoover> never said a word there or here except when i asked if they were the same person
22:51:42 <boily> `^_^v. suspicious.
22:51:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v.: not found
22:53:25 * oerjan didn't notice ^v had disappeared
22:54:40 <boily> so many disappeared peoples... Bike, elliott, Fiora, oklopol, itidus[n | n <- [19..21]]...
22:54:56 <oerjan> also the only thing i'm getting out of your crypto problem is the vague feeling you're all thinking _far_ too approximately to trust what you came up with.
22:56:08 <oerjan> oklopol came by "incognito" a while gao
22:56:49 <oerjan> i suspect the elliott that is currently online is someone else
22:58:36 <oerjan> Fiora is online, and i saw Bike not too long ago
22:59:54 <shachaf> nitia hasn't been around in a while.
23:02:02 <shachaf> You figured that out more quickly than I did.
23:04:27 <Sgeo_> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20141017071618-3815022-secure-programming-ada-vs-rust
23:06:49 <lambdabot> *** "otiose" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:06:49 <lambdabot> adj 1: serving no useful purpose; having no excuse for being;
23:06:49 <lambdabot> "otiose lines in a play"; "advice is wasted words"; "a
23:06:49 <lambdabot> pointless remark"; "a life essentially purposeless";
23:07:24 <oerjan> is otiose a homological word
23:07:47 <ais523> huh, I guess I learned a word today
23:07:51 <lambdabot> "senseless violence" [syn: {otiose}, {pointless},
23:07:51 <lambdabot> {purposeless}, {senseless}, {superfluous}, {wasted}]
23:07:51 <lambdabot> 2: producing no result or effect; "a futile effort"; "the
23:07:51 <lambdabot> therapy was ineffectual"; "an otiose undertaking"; "an
23:07:51 <lambdabot> unavailing attempt" [syn: {futile}, {ineffectual}, {otiose},
23:08:29 <ais523> so something is otiose, either if it doesn't have a useful end goal, or if it does but fails to get anywhere near it or anywhere else
23:08:57 <shachaf> http://ct2015.web.ua.pt/talks.html
23:09:54 <oerjan> me in a nutshell there
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23:11:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43625&oldid=43624 * Quintopia * (+7) bug fix
23:20:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43626&oldid=43625 * Quintopia * (+78) bug fix
23:20:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43627&oldid=43626 * Quintopia * (+4) /* Examples */
23:21:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43628&oldid=43627 * Quintopia * (-4) /* Examples */
23:25:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43629&oldid=43628 * Quintopia * (+5) deck size reqs
23:29:20 <zzo38> Can the mouse pointer be changed in xterm when the program is set to receive mouse events?
23:29:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43630&oldid=43629 * Quintopia * (+143) handle edge case
23:40:11 <oerjan> argh am i supposed to get GT to translate japanese portmanteaus now
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23:47:45 <boily> oerjan: I admit japormantese may be a little be far fetched...
23:49:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Abstract machine]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43631 * Hppavilion1 * (+195) Created page
23:52:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Abstract machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43632&oldid=43631 * Hppavilion1 * (+582) Added a section on turing machines (other people are free to add more
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