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00:09:43 <zzo38> Can other programs that use Motif widgets and so on be changed to use Athena widgets?
00:10:02 <pikhq> I don't see why not, though perhaps not *easily*.
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01:42:02 <oren_> Oren Watson is back in Town!
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01:52:00 <tswett> Is the category of scow finitely cocomplete?
01:52:44 <tswett> I had an idea the other day. The (philosophical) "category of occurrents", where an "occurrent" is something with examples or instances.
01:53:09 <tswett> Redness is an occurrent; there are examples and instances of redness.
01:53:56 <tswett> Oh, and then a morphism is any "natural" way of mapping instances of one occurrent to instances of another occurrent.
01:54:10 <tswett> "Natural" isn't explicitly defined.
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03:59:27 <zzo38> What should be a first sentence of a "level20.tex" story? Currently I have an "Introduction" chapter that starts with: After his disease of coughing has been cured, he suddenly disappeared and this resulted in a lot of events occuring (the ``butterfly effect''), as described in this text. But I am not sure if it should be better to delete everything before "It is now morning."
04:01:07 <zzo38> The first sentence cited has nothing to do with the story anyways; I was just trying to make the beginning a bit more strangely...?
04:01:45 <zzo38> Also the introduction is an actual chapter and I am not sure if it should be.
04:04:44 <zzo38> I am sure it is possible to do better with a lot of these thing, some of these paragraph could be fixed a bit to improved. One sentence already has been at someone else's suggestion
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04:16:40 <shachaf> zzo38: Why is it called level20.tex?
04:17:37 <zzo38> Because it is from a Dungeons&Dragons game where we started as level 20 (and also with no possessions) and is typeset with TeX.
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04:18:39 <zzo38> So it is just the filename I gave it.
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13:03:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43719&oldid=40030 * 83.251.36.35 * (+2) It -> It's
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13:25:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stalem * New user account
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13:53:04 <mroman> there oughta be a lower bound
13:53:08 <mroman> a machine that can't solve anything
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13:53:43 <mroman> What's the name for a machine that can't solve anything?
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14:02:23 <GoToTell> Machine that's can't solve anything? "My Brain."
14:18:53 <mroman> the human mind as a machine would be inherentely flawed
14:19:47 <mroman> unless you can recreate mental illnesses in neuronal networks as well given some stimuli.
14:20:03 <GoToTell> So would be the machine located at your lower bound.
14:20:15 <mroman> the machine that can't do anything would be the lower bound
14:22:31 <GoToTell> I think it's impossible for a machine to metaphysically do nothing.
14:30:26 <mroman> Let's say there's a decision problem D
14:30:50 <mroman> and a machine D that either answers yes,no,can't solve
14:31:04 <mroman> the useless machine will always answer with can't solve ;D
14:33:28 <coppro> just evaluate everything to _|_
14:42:21 <mroman> then there are the Las Vegas Machines
14:42:36 <mroman> they either report yes,no or fail
14:43:20 <GoToTell> Feed it it's own schematics and ask how it a machine built like that would respond if giving 'this' problem.
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15:32:44 <myname> at http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ there is a passage that doesn't make sense to me
15:33:12 <myname> "^x^y`$x$y (i.e. i) and ^y^x`$y$x (i.e. ``s`k`sik)."
15:33:50 <myname> i guess it was meant to be ^x^y`$y$x
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16:28:40 <HackEgo> olist 997: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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17:02:25 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, you read olist?
17:04:52 <tswett> ````s`k`sikxy = ` ```s `k`si k x y = ` `` `k`si x `k x y = `` ``k `si x `kxy = `` `si `kxy = ```s i `kx y = `` i y ` `kx y = ` `i y ``k x y = ` y x = `yx
17:04:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ```s`k`sikxy: not found
17:05:18 <HackEgo> Thanks, HackEgo. ThackEgo.
17:05:59 <tswett> myname: so yeah, it should be ^x^y`$y$x
17:06:24 <tswett> @type ap (const (ap it)) const
17:06:25 <lambdabot> ‘id’ (imported from Data.Function),
17:06:29 <tswett> @type ap (const (ap id)) const
17:08:40 <tswett> I should have just done that.
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17:52:09 <oerjan> edwardk: shachaf: i realized the "at most 2 elements in the universe" idea could be replaced by something much simpler http://oerjan.nvg.org/haskell/Forall/UC2.hs
17:52:34 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you see the bug edwardk linked to?
17:52:40 <oerjan> also, i definitely should start browsing githubs, i didn't know there were issues pointing out already
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17:52:59 <oerjan> shachaf: i did, so the module is broken in at least two different ways
17:53:35 <oerjan> but both amount to how even unexported data types leak too much information to be used as skolems
17:55:28 <oerjan> ah he's added another issue
17:55:50 <edwardk> ok, this is basically dead since the introduction of closed type families
17:56:16 <oerjan> edwardk: i _think_ the 2 for 3 version could be made without having them closed
17:56:23 <edwardk> the code was written before they existed
17:56:57 <edwardk> well i always stated it ruled out the only obvious attack, now the problem is the less obvious attacks are mounting ;)
17:57:28 <edwardk> i can still make a version that does reflectiony tricks, but that would preclude you being able to infer Forall Foo
17:57:55 <edwardk> the thing that kills it dead is Typeble though
17:58:37 <edwardk> https://github.com/ekmett/constraints/issues/10
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17:59:04 <edwardk> that version requires almost nothing to execute the attack
18:00:00 <oerjan> only open family: http://oerjan.nvg.org/haskell/Forall/UC3.hs
18:00:45 <Xavo> !ztest test_123 (>)*9([-]>)*99
18:00:57 <oerjan> edwardk: i don't think Typeable kills a reflectiony version, the Typeable instance generator can only give known types
18:01:10 <edwardk> oerjan: look closely at what is being generated there
18:01:24 <edwardk> its using the Typeable A and TYpeable B that get autogenerated
18:01:48 <edwardk> and then its able to cast because they'll agree on being 'A'
18:02:07 <oerjan> ...i assumed you wouldn't use A and B in a reflectiony version, but a made-up-of-thin-air type like reflection does?
18:02:09 <edwardk> because we just cast the dictionary
18:02:22 <edwardk> i just mean the current version
18:02:29 <edwardk> this is a pretty effective attack on the current version
18:02:37 <edwardk> it gives you unsafeCoerce in about 5 lines of code
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18:03:19 <edwardk> so i think this basically rules out all skolem based approaches
18:05:15 <oerjan> i was thinking whether it would be possible to use an impredicative type like forall a. C a => a
18:05:26 <oerjan> with an unexported class C
18:05:54 <oerjan> but i should assume that won't work well, like anything impredicative
18:06:30 <shachaf> oerjan: Why isn't this conversation in #-lens, anyway?
18:06:41 <oerjan> no lenses involved hth
18:09:43 <edwardk> unexported classes are Typeable too
18:10:26 <oerjan> um sure, but i don't see the relevance...
18:11:11 <oerjan> the class is just to try and make sure the user cannot cast it to a known type
18:11:32 <oerjan> it was just an idea, anyway
18:11:58 <oerjan> i meant to replace A and B by such a type (or several if that helps...)
18:12:45 <edwardk> any idea how to make that work?
18:13:23 <oerjan> well i haven't actually tried it...
18:14:06 <oerjan> i don't have any Forall-using programs to test, anyway. well except the exploit.
18:19:57 <oerjan> huh apparently that fails with no suggestion of repair when it gets to the Forall definition
18:21:01 <oerjan> edwardk: i guess even with ImpredicativeTypes, you're not allowed to apply a type variable to an impredicative type. alas.
18:24:19 <edwardk> https://github.com/ekmett/constraints/commit/522e9da30410898895f7d13194ea8ac50910a01c
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18:42:43 <olsner> I've heard that scow is oerjanspeak for something
18:43:50 <shachaf> `addquote <olsner> I've heard that scow is oerjanspeak for something
18:43:53 <HackEgo> 1252) <olsner> I've heard that scow is oerjanspeak for something
18:44:59 <olsner> hogwash, is that scow?
18:45:11 <oerjan> shachaf: i'll sue you for libel by proxy hth
18:46:53 <oerjan> but first i'll have to sue microsoft and asus for nagging me about the same thing twice
18:47:26 <olsner> did they nag together twice, once each, or in total four times?
18:47:56 <olsner> that's a lot of nagging
18:48:11 <oerjan> or well, microsoft seems to want me to enable its spyware^Wsmartscreen
18:48:29 <oerjan> and asus refuses to remember my touchpad settings.
18:48:54 <oerjan> come to think of it, it used to forget them before, until i gently kicked it
18:51:33 <oerjan> oh well, it seems to have settled down. while waking up from suspend is faster, actual reboot is annoyingly slow.
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19:00:34 <hppavilion[1]> When upgrading to WX, I actually did custom settings and disabled all tracking
19:00:59 <hppavilion[1]> And I've told my mom she isn't allowed to install windows 10 on her own, because I'm going to disable them for her, too
19:01:13 <hppavilion[1]> Unfortunately, her computer won't install updates for some reason
19:01:31 <shachaf> ais523: I know you're not on `olist, but did you see the new olist?
19:01:45 <shachaf> Oh, you only read them in bursts.
19:05:15 <ais523> shachaf: OK, that's quite the plot twist
19:06:18 <ais523> oh, hmm, the page online for my thesis has finally been created, but apparently it's restricted distribution until 1 December for some reason
19:06:25 <ais523> I assume that's the date on which I "officially" get the PhD
19:12:54 <oerjan> i'm afraid that's the wrong way hth
19:13:13 <shachaf> ais523: I was going to ask about that.
19:13:19 <shachaf> ais523: Restricted to whom?
19:13:31 <ais523> shachaf: the staff hosting the site, apparently
19:13:35 <shachaf> Can I read it if I'm mentioned in it?
19:13:37 <ais523> at least /I/ don't have access and it's my thesis :-(
19:21:49 <shachaf> Maybe Elsevier will sell you a copy.
19:22:14 <fizzie> My former department's bibtex-based webified publication list infrastructure had this concept of "internal pdf".
19:22:44 <fizzie> Adding an "internal pdf" to a publication put a link that would 403 to the publication entry on the web page.
19:22:57 <ais523> shachaf: anyway, it will be free public access once the 1 December deadline's passed, unless someting really incompetent happens
19:23:02 <fizzie> Also when accessed from my "internal" workstation.
19:23:12 <ais523> fizzie: heh, the "link" to it on the web page in my case is actually just some underlined text
19:23:15 <ais523> it doesn't do anything when you click on it
19:23:19 <fizzie> You could access them via the NFS share, but I'm not sure what the link was for.
19:23:33 <fizzie> Maybe it used to be an IP-based restriction and someone renumbered the networks or something.
19:24:16 <fizzie> I wonder what our library does, I know they make the dissertations available, but I don't know at what point in the process.
19:25:55 <fizzie> Huh, they have a new system.
19:26:08 <fizzie> https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/ v. fancy.
19:26:41 <fizzie> I don't think the non-thesis categories are very comprehensive.
19:26:58 <shachaf> they should have a branch in paalo aalto
19:27:36 <fizzie> shachaf: They organized a cruise ship conference thing, and called it "Aalto on Waves".
19:27:47 <fizzie> http://www.aaltoonwaves.com/
19:28:20 <fizzie> Although I think it's named after Alvar Aalto.
19:28:38 <shachaf> whoa, i can read all of fizzie's secrets
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19:29:11 <shachaf> Oh, these are people who cited fizzie, and people who were advised by fizzie.
19:29:20 <fizzie> Yes, apparently my master's thesis isn't in there.
19:29:37 <fizzie> I graduated just before Helsinki University of Technology became Aalto University, I guess this new thing only has Aalto-stuff.
19:30:05 <shachaf> What does it take to get some fizzie advice?
19:30:53 <fizzie> Hah, and the old thesis database isn't available externally.
19:31:10 <fizzie> "A user licence is required to the databases Tkkbooks, Tkkserials, Tali and Inssi from other than Aalto University users."
19:31:25 <fizzie> The text "A user license" is a link to a 404 page.
19:34:13 <fizzie> Searching by my surname, there was a bachelor's thesis on lighting; tried to download it: "You do not have the credentials to access the restricted bitstream".
19:37:34 <fizzie> As far as I can determine, my master's thesis is not freely electronically available. :/
19:37:40 <fizzie> Oh well. It wasn't very good anyway.
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19:54:07 <fizzie> I hope you noticed oerjan's hth comment.
19:54:40 <shachaf> fizzie: I'm afraid that doesn't disambiguate very much.
19:55:08 <fizzie> The one about reduction to BF being the wrong way around.
19:55:53 <hppavilion[1]> Because you can write a program in this language that is essentially Trivial Brainfuck Substitution
19:55:56 <fizzie> If you go by the usual meanings of the word. If you implemented BF in your language, that's reducing BF to your thing, and that's the right way around.
19:56:09 <hppavilion[1]> But if you were so inclined, you could use the tree as a tape
19:56:20 <fizzie> In that case, it's probably right.
19:56:51 <fizzie> Reduction of A to B conventionally means a way to solve A using a known solution of B.
19:57:44 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, my language has a way to move from node to node, a way to increment or decrement the current node while 1, and a way to loop a block of code while nonzero
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19:59:02 <fizzie> That sounds a lot like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Treehugger
19:59:11 <fizzie> Although maybe your tree isn't binary.
20:00:54 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically exactly treehugger, but more legible
20:01:27 <shachaf> strictly speaking it's a weirdlang
20:01:34 <hppavilion[1]> It's an esolang the same way Postscript is an esolang
20:01:36 <fizzie> In the same family, there's also the more elaborate https://esolangs.org/wiki/Arborealis
20:01:51 <shachaf> (the joke is that weirdlang isn't the technical term)
20:02:33 <hppavilion[1]> It's inspired by arborealis to the degree of just being called Arbour-Lang currently
20:02:59 <fizzie> If I type "esolangs.org foo" in my browser, it does a search using http://fail.esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=foo
20:03:05 <fizzie> Because fail.esolangs.org fails.
20:03:18 <fizzie> Wonder where that has come from.
20:04:12 <fizzie> Really strange. I have an "esolangs.org" search using fail.esolangs.org, and a "fail.esolangs.org" search using esolangs.org.
20:04:36 <fizzie> And also two other "Esolang (en)" search engines from various temporary things, but that's more reasonable.
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20:07:25 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: One might even call your searching quirks... esoteric
20:14:35 <fizzie> It sounds like just dequeue-enqueue.
20:14:58 <tswett> Hmm. Here's an esolang.
20:15:14 <fizzie> "Practical" queue types tend to have an "is empty" test, and maybe a peek operation for the front.
20:15:20 <tswett> Of nonnegative integers.
20:15:49 <tswett> You pop a number; call it n. Then you peek the next n numbers and reenqueue them.
20:17:00 <tswett> So "3 3 2 2 1 1" would become "3 2 2 1 1 3 2 2", then "2 2 1 1 3 2 2 2 2", then "2 1 1 3 2 2 2 2 2 1", then "1 1 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1", and so forth.
20:17:23 <tswett> Sounds Turing-complete.
20:17:42 <hppavilion[1]> Somehow, I just noticed the name collison between dequeue the operation and dequeue the double-ended queue
20:17:45 <ais523> tswett: reminds me of resplicate
20:17:49 <ais523> although it's not quite the same
20:17:59 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: The double-ended queue is generally just a "deque".
20:18:08 <fizzie> Pronounced 'deck', I think.
20:18:09 <ais523> it also reminds me of xigxag, though, which is suspected to not be TC
20:18:21 <fizzie> (Because like a deck of cards, you can access both ends.)
20:19:44 <hppavilion[1]> I've decided to obey the made up philosophy of RSRJ (Right Shell for the Right Job)
20:20:10 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm going to invent a host of alternative shells that all have special purposes
20:20:31 <hppavilion[1]> Not to replace the Bourne-Again SHell, but as alternatives for specific tasks
20:20:48 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: there's git shell, already
20:21:28 <ais523> if you want an object-oriented shell, look at Powershell
20:22:10 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to integrate them into this cool interface called the UtopiaUI
20:22:25 <fizzie> Sometimes I wonder if there are actual scsh users anywhere. I've never heard of anyone.
20:22:52 <hppavilion[1]> Its basic form will be a command prompy mixed with a file explorer
20:23:14 <hppavilion[1]> And the file explorer you're using switches to the "dir" directory
20:23:22 <hppavilion[1]> So you don't need to type "ls" to see all the files
20:23:30 <hppavilion[1]> And you can see what you're doing much more awesomely
20:24:13 <hppavilion[1]> Or, if you double click (or single click, depending on your OS's settings) on the "dir" directory
20:24:27 <fizzie> That sounds somewhat like NC and its ilk.
20:24:55 <hppavilion[1]> And the shell is DIRECTLY connected in-window to that file system
20:25:08 <tswett> I love graphical software that has a command line.
20:25:14 <tswett> I mean, I don't think I've ever used such software.
20:25:22 <tswett> But in my imagination, I love it.
20:25:52 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton_Commander#/media/File:Norton_Commander_5.51.png -- IIRC, the prompt at the bottom and the file manager filling the rest of the screen are quite synchronized.
20:25:58 <fizzie> (It's not graphical, of course.)
20:26:55 <fizzie> tswett: MATLAB is kind of a graphical software with a command line.
20:26:58 <fizzie> If you squint, at least.
20:27:26 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: UUI sounds a lot like an IDE.
20:27:27 <hppavilion[1]> Sans a full-fledged IDE, such that the user can use their own preferred one
20:28:09 <hppavilion[1]> You use the UUI when you want to browse files without an eyestrain
20:28:51 <hppavilion[1]> I'm sure I'll find a place for it in the world of programming :P
20:30:02 <tswett> Are you going to create your own file browser, or integrate this with an existing one?
20:31:17 <hppavilion[1]> I have a personal project perpetually going to create a software suite called UtopiaOffice
20:31:49 <hppavilion[1]> Strangely, the company I'm developing it under (and likely the one to distribute it if all goes according to my ~evil~ plan) is actually a GAMING company
20:33:26 <hppavilion[1]> It's designed to be usable for programmers and mathematicians as well as mere mortals
20:34:01 <hppavilion[1]> So, for example, it has a calculator called Godel that will, if I can figure it out, do calculus.
20:34:42 <hppavilion[1]> But to answer your question, it will /probably/ use a custom-made filebrowser
20:35:13 <hppavilion[1]> And be designed to look pretty so it doesn't strain your eyes
20:40:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing that OO shell... but my tendency towards Esolangs is directing me to make BF scripting possible in it
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22:08:57 <boily> you're on the East Coast?
22:09:15 <shachaf> looj this "shello" thing doesn't make any sense
22:09:25 <shachaf> that h isn't an independent sound
22:09:33 <shachaf> you can't make "hello" out of it
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22:20:20 <shachaf> Mr. Shellophane / Shoulda been my name
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