00:22:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43856 * SuperJedi224 * (+704) Created page with "'''Loader''' is an upcoming esolang by SuperJedi224, where recursive module loading is the principal mode of recursion and iteration. A load statement loads a module on a cop..."
00:29:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43857&oldid=43856 * SuperJedi224 * (-24)
00:38:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43858&oldid=43857 * SuperJedi224 * (+346)
00:38:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43859&oldid=43858 * SuperJedi224 * (-36)
00:42:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43860&oldid=43859 * SuperJedi224 * (+16)
00:43:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43861&oldid=43860 * SuperJedi224 * (+62)
00:45:23 <oerjan> "I have time enough to drag you down to meet Nergal with me!!"
00:46:15 <oerjan> it occurs to me that malack clearly expected to go to some afterlife. which means he didn't simply stop existing entirely.
00:46:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43862&oldid=43861 * SuperJedi224 * (+4) /* Count down from 10 */
00:47:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43863&oldid=43862 * SuperJedi224 * (+121) /* Example Programs */
00:47:46 <oerjan> which leads to another shocking prediction: he might show up to help durkon one last time.
00:48:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43864&oldid=43863 * SuperJedi224 * (-127)
00:52:27 <zzo38> The caps lock and num lock light on my computer is broken; how can I make it to display on the screen instead?
00:53:13 <boily> hezzo38. what kind of OS/WM/DE/GUI are you using?
00:53:15 <zzo38> There is the program "xkbvleds" but I want to put in the status bar where it is displayed the time and system load
00:53:58 <zzo38> I am using OEM Ubuntu Linux, with i3-wm, a custom status bar program, and no desktop environment.
00:55:40 <boily> sounds like the sort of custom status bar program you can pipe in stuff from scripts.
00:56:47 <zzo38> It is; I wrote the C program to output the JSON data which i3 uses to display the status bar.
01:03:21 <zzo38> But how can I put the keyboard status display on there?
01:07:23 <boily> `unicode UPWARDS WHITE ARROW FROM BAR WITH HORIZONTAL BAR
01:09:14 <boily> zzo38: something like that, or am I completely misunderstanding your problem?
01:09:43 <zzo38> No I mean how to put it on there. I can use ASCII characters just fine, I mean how to make it even display it there!
01:10:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43865&oldid=43864 * SuperJedi224 * (-138) /* "Hello, World!" */
01:12:52 <boily> there's 'xset q' that you can grep for caps/num/scroll lock status?
01:13:18 * boily feels like there's some vital information he's not grasping at all
01:16:41 <zzo38> I hope to do it without making it to execute other programs, because I want to do it per second, or preferably, when the key is pushed only.
01:18:53 <boily> http://stackoverflow.com/a/8429021 ?
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01:28:12 <edtoast_46> please try joining #edtoast .I would greatly appreciate it
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01:53:06 <oerjan> edtoast_46: i hope you're not advertising that everywhere or your channel may soon be ... you know what.
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01:54:03 <shachaf> where's that swatter when you need it twh
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01:55:23 <oerjan> shachaf: you're around. is e spamming generally?
01:55:39 <shachaf> I'm less around than I used to be.
01:55:48 <shachaf> But I haven't seen them elsewhere.
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02:18:37 <zzo38> I made up a simple kind of virtual machine and this is one example code that can be used with it: http://sprunge.us/SSbY
02:43:15 <izabera> is there any valid regex that has no possible match?
02:43:37 <ais523> izabera: depends on what regex operators you allow
02:44:11 <ais523> I'm inclined to say no if you're restricted to the usual set, because you can recursively build up a string that matches via taking the first possible option with each operator
02:44:20 <ais523> but in various sorts of extended regexes it's easy
02:44:34 <izabera> let's start with the basics
02:44:37 <ais523> e.g. if you have lookahead or lookbehind you can easily place two contradictory assertions on the same character
02:44:50 <ais523> all such regexes have a match
02:45:06 <ais523> replace all x* and x? with the null string, x+ with x, x{a,b} with a copies of x, and (a|b) with a
02:45:51 <ais523> depends on the regex parser, I think
02:46:09 <ais523> many would allow "a^" with no matches
02:49:24 <shachaf> I wish regular expressions supported intersection and complement.
02:51:09 <izabera> your shell supports extended globs, they're a different flavour of regular expressions
02:52:08 <izabera> !(a|b) not a nor b @(a|b) a or b +(a) 1 or more a *(a) zero or more a ?(a) zero or one a
02:52:41 <shachaf> What's the complement of /ab/ expressed as a regex?
02:53:24 <izabera> oh sorry i misunderstood the question
02:53:41 <izabera> there's no complement of /ab/ in the classic regex
02:53:50 <izabera> there's that lookahead thing
02:53:54 <shachaf> It's just awkward to write it.
02:54:07 <izabera> ^(?:ab)*$ something like this
02:54:36 <shachaf> OK, I shouldn't say "sure". I think there most likely is.
02:54:38 <izabera> there's no complement in BRE or ERE
02:54:49 <oren> /([^ab]|a[^b]|b)+/
02:54:50 <shachaf> There's no operator, but you can manually compute the complement.
02:55:08 <oren> /([^ab]|a[^b]|b)*/
02:55:21 <ais523> well, if you're allowing [^]
02:55:27 <oren> actually simpler
02:55:30 <ais523> you could just do a character class containing every single character
02:55:34 <oren> /([^a]|a[^b])*/
02:55:40 <shachaf> [^] doesn't give you anything, does it?
02:55:57 <shachaf> Oh, you're still talking about that. Yes.
02:56:01 <ais523> (Perl syntax, other regexes use slightly different escape syntaxes)
02:56:10 <shachaf> What about /[]/ -- is that valid?
02:56:16 <shachaf> ais523 is talking about the previous question.
02:56:26 <oren> /([^a]|a[^b])*a?/
02:56:42 <ais523> in terms of negating regexes, I believe it's always possible but often blows them up exponentially
02:57:01 <ais523> proof: convert regex to state machine; negate state machine (via swapping the success and failure states); convert state machine to regex
02:57:01 <shachaf> I think it might even be double-exponential.
02:57:28 <shachaf> Oh, maybe just exponential. Not sure.
02:58:10 <ais523> my guess is just exponential
02:58:24 <oren> well the most basic case is /abcdef/ in which you have
02:58:41 <oren> [^abcdef]|a[^bcdef]....
02:58:57 <ais523> it gets way harder if the regex isn't anchored
02:59:28 <ais523> (this came up in #esoteric a few months/years ago, there were tons of attempts at it and they were nearly all wrong)
02:59:34 <oren> isn't that the same as /abc/ in terms of what matches?
02:59:54 <ais523> I was just making the lack of anchors clearer
03:00:52 <oren> I once tried to write a regex match function that didn't build a state machine
03:01:09 <ais523> backtracking is easier to write than the state machine version
03:01:14 <ais523> but less efficient worst-case
03:01:27 <shachaf> My regular expression was a full match.
03:01:33 <oren> no, no data structure at all
03:01:38 <shachaf> ais523: That depends on the worst case.
03:01:56 <oren> I mean it simply went character by character through the two strings
03:02:04 <ais523> I'm not sure which method is more efficient average-case
03:02:11 <ais523> oren: how does it handle regexes like aab|aac?
03:02:15 <shachaf> Backtracking can handle things like (([ab]{99}){99}){99} better, someone mentioned.
03:02:33 <shachaf> oren: Well, that's the same as the state machine approach.
03:02:40 <shachaf> Assuming you have multiple "cursors" in the regex.
03:02:51 <shachaf> And you split when you see | and so on.
03:03:00 <shachaf> OK, then it sounds like backtracking. :-)
03:03:24 <oren> yeah except way more inefficient than most implementations
03:03:26 <shachaf> I feel like "backtracking vs. NFA" is a continuüm, not a choice of one of the other.
03:04:06 <ais523> ooh, correctly used diaeresis
03:05:23 <shachaf> The NFA approach to regular expressions is like dynamic programming. You have a graph that you walk one step in each time you see a character, but when two paths through the graph reach the same node, you collapse them.
03:05:49 <shachaf> The backtracking approach keeps the full path, which means you can use backreferences and so on.
03:07:31 <shachaf> But maybe you can keep some amount of state associated with a node, but still not have it be the full path used to reach that node.
03:08:26 <mauris> <ais523> try negating .*abc.* <-- your approach (convert to state machine, negate, convert back) would work fine, wouldn't it?
03:08:42 <ais523> mauris: yes, but it's really hard to do in your head
03:08:54 <ais523> I'm not claiming it's impossible (it's definitely possible)
03:09:04 <ais523> just that nearly all the attempts at it in practice get it wrong
03:09:21 <ais523> I think I eventually came up with a correct solution, but after something like ten failures
03:09:40 <shachaf> OK, I think regexes that support intersection and complement need an double-exponential number of states.
03:09:57 <shachaf> As opposed to just exponential, for regregexes.
03:10:43 <shachaf> But it would be so useful that I'm annoyed that there are hardly any implementations around.
03:10:58 <ais523> shachaf: regex inversion, or regex-to-DFA?
03:11:28 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if anyone's build a regex impl using yacc
03:11:35 <ais523> regexes are a special case of context-free grammars, after all
03:11:37 <shachaf> The problem is that (P&Q) is multiplicative rather than additive.
03:17:48 <mauris> isn't P|Q also multiplicative, in the general case? (you mean in # of DFA states, right?)
03:20:13 <shachaf> It's additive in the number of NFA states.
03:21:37 <HackEgo> maur is the correct spelling
03:22:22 <mauris> i said that three lines ago too, help am i a robot??
03:24:23 <mauris> relatedly i'm TAing a class on finite automata and regular expressions, and i get to come up with multiple choice questions for the exam!
03:24:43 <shachaf> They have multiple choice questions in .be?
03:24:54 <shachaf> I thought those only existed here.
03:26:13 <mauris> super easy to grade, i guess
03:26:23 <mauris> ("so easy a DFA could do it")
03:27:17 <shachaf> mauris: Does your class talk about how to implement intersection and complement efficiently?
03:30:44 <shachaf> mauris: are you a deterministic finite robot
03:31:21 <shachaf> `learn Robots are deterministic finite Belgians that repeat themselves. Taneb invented them.
03:31:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'robot': Robots are deterministic finite Belgians that repeat themselves. Taneb invented them.
03:31:50 <izabera> can you help meh? ;-; http://arin.ga/R4N7lx/raw why does this not match a(b|c)d ?
03:32:20 <izabera> i'm trying to match regex with regex
03:33:16 <ais523> izabera: the regex language you're using is insufficiently powerful to nest parens
03:33:31 <ais523> so I already know that whatever you've come up with is wrong
03:33:50 <izabera> thanks for the hint, i know that
03:34:04 <izabera> i don't plan to match recursively only with regex
03:37:06 <izabera> it needed an extra group (\|x|y) -> (\|(x|y))
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03:49:47 <shachaf> oerjan: 20:46 -!- edtoast_46 [~Brandon@2602:306:3876:370:9dbe:f358:9656:99fc] has joined #haskell
03:51:44 <oerjan> did e mention eir channel
03:52:09 <shachaf> a different channel with a certain five-character substring hth
03:53:08 <dramforever> I'm trying to design a code golf PL using Chinese characters
03:53:10 <HackEgo> dramforever: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:53:41 <dramforever> but I'm kinda having fun reinvening the wheel
03:54:01 <oerjan> just as long as you don't make it a round wheel, they're so old hat
03:54:23 <shachaf> i've never heard of a round wheel being used as an old hat hthib
03:54:38 <dramforever> I'm pretty sure some common unicode symbols + Chinese could beat APL easily
03:56:14 <izabera> how many characters are there?
03:56:59 <oerjan> > maxBound :: Char -- hth
03:58:03 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_%28Unicode%29 wtf
03:58:06 <oerjan> shachaf: apparently "wheel hat" is a disappointingly unrelated thing.
04:00:25 <izabera> ok so there are 1,114,112 valid characters
04:00:30 <dramforever> looks like the majority of the BMP is Unified CJK Han
04:01:18 <dramforever> Chinese characters are so sophisticated that a character is basically a word
04:01:21 <izabera> build a huge lookup table with as many combiantions as possible of these: ><+-.,[]
04:01:57 <dramforever> izabera: why don't you just code in brain***k and 7z your code or something
04:03:08 <shachaf> No, there aren't 1114112 code points in Unicode.
04:03:43 <izabera> "The 17 planes can accommodate 1,114,112 code points[...]" from that page
04:04:11 <shachaf> Maybe they could, but they don't.
04:04:20 <shachaf> Not every number between 0 and 1114111 corresponds to a code point.
04:05:23 <shachaf> For example 0xD800 - 0xDFFF
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04:09:49 <ais523> ooh, it's our first -n spam
04:10:42 <ais523> shachaf: channel mode that lets people not in the channel send to it
04:10:48 <ais523> (look at the timing of the part versus the message)
04:11:03 <ais523> we had a debate a while back about whether -n would increase the amount of spam we got
04:11:22 <shachaf> -n is great because it confuses you about whether HackEgo is in the channel.
04:11:32 <ais523> that was months ago, this is the first spam we've got
04:19:50 <Sgeo> (Warning: nand2tetris spoilers) my assembly code could probably be clearer, maybe some newlines: http://pastie.org/private/lbxz7yz6d5fqe2kavpgq
04:20:05 <ais523> nan2dtetris has spoilers?
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04:20:23 <Sgeo> If you consider project solutions to be spoilers
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04:21:00 <izabera> http://arin.ga/DFEDo3/raw uhm can you try to run this? what am i doing wrong? in the second example i want to keep b\|c together
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04:22:16 <izabera> there's this satan.spawn() function in the idris standard library
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04:41:37 <shachaf> whoa, there are all sorts of different types of grapes
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04:53:14 <mauris> <shachaf> mauris: Does your class talk about how to implement intersection and complement efficiently? <-- sadly, no; it talks about making the DFAs you end up with efficient through state elimination but the algorithms to get there are all naive
04:53:49 <shachaf> if you want to make ais523 ooh or aah, you can say naïve hth
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05:15:50 <oren> you'd have to ask a wine-lover about grapes
05:16:19 <oren> apparently they make wine with grapes that taste like other fruit or something
05:20:11 <shachaf> These grapes taste like delicious grapes.
06:20:27 <zzo38> You discuss whether -n would increase the amount of spam you got. Although you got the spam with the -n it still doesn't make much difference because they did join anyways! So, it is a bit strange kind of a example, kind of.
06:21:17 <ais523> yes, it's not the sort of -n spam I expected
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06:21:27 <ais523> they joined, then parted, then sent the message
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06:23:01 <shachaf> Well, how else would they know that the channel is -n?
06:23:14 <zzo38> With the MODE command
06:24:04 <zzo38> There is no even #ToastIRC channel as far as I can see (MODE tells me no such channel)
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06:44:55 <zzo38> Remember: Make every program a filter!
06:46:03 <shachaf> even if i 'ardly know 'er?
06:47:15 <zzo38> A UNIX-style-filter, where it uses stdin/stdout so you can use it with pipes and redirection and so on.
06:47:40 <ais523> zzo38: what's your opinion of NetHack, in that respect?
06:47:41 <zzo38> A lot of modern programs don't, but ought to, in my opinion.
06:47:46 <ais523> it takes input from stdin and produces output on stdout
06:48:03 <ais523> but it also uses other files of its own, and generates and loads save files
06:48:15 <ais523> and if stdin (or maybe stdout?) is not a terminal it refuses to run
06:48:16 <zzo38> Well, it is reasonable to do that in that case, to use stdin/stdout and various files
06:48:30 <zzo38> Although it ought to work even if they are not a terminal
06:48:39 <shachaf> What's your opinion of programs that seek in stdin, or mmap it?
06:48:45 <zzo38> So that you can use filters to make macros and character conversion and so on
06:49:08 <zzo38> shachaf: Normally it shouldn't, you should try to avoid it. But sometimes it seems like necessary anyways
06:50:12 <zzo38> But you could just use a file and make a `...` to capture a temporary filename perhaps, in the command-line argument, then it won't be a problem to be seeked even if it is a pipe.
06:50:15 <shachaf> zzo38: I think that shells shouldn't have < and >
06:50:22 <shachaf> Instead, there should be commands to read from files and write to files.
06:50:32 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, you could do it without; use cat to read and make another program to write
06:50:37 <ais523> shachaf: there's ready a command for reading from a file
06:50:39 <shachaf> You would use readfile f | filter | writefile g instead of filter < f > g
06:50:49 <ais523> also, tee can be used to write to a file but it also copies output to stdout
06:50:51 <shachaf> ais523: I didn't say there wasn't.
06:51:03 <ais523> shachaf: I know, I'm trying to help you implement your idea
06:51:19 <shachaf> The other issue is that going through a pipe can be inefficient.
06:51:24 <shachaf> I'm not sure how to solve that.
06:52:27 <zzo38> If they are shell-builtins, that might solve it
06:52:36 <shachaf> The point is that they aren't shell builtins.
06:52:53 <shachaf> But maybe a different API would let you attach a file descriptor directly to a pipe.
06:53:41 <zzo38> Yes, I know it isn't, but if they are just shell-builtin command called < and > then it can still be use with syntax of pipe to be consistent even though it isn't
06:53:43 <ais523> this reminds me of revcat
06:53:53 <ais523> which I'm not sure I ever got working
06:53:56 <ais523> it pipes its stdout to its stdin
06:54:01 <shachaf> I also want it to be easy to write to the network and so on.
06:54:13 <shachaf> Right now bash implements TCP sockets as a shell builtin or something, which is ridiculous.
06:54:24 <ais523> so you can do revcat < a.txt | revcat | revcat >> b.txt, and it copies b.txt to a.txt
06:54:38 <shachaf> You can also write | tee (> nc ...) | ... in bash, or somehting along those lines.
06:54:39 <ais523> also I think bash implements TCP sockets as a fake device file
06:54:56 <zzo38> For TCP connect you could use netcat, it probably shouldn't be a shell built-in
06:54:57 <shachaf> ais523: Another command that writes stdin to a file is sponge.
06:55:13 <zzo38> But I think sponge does it delayed? Sometimes this is useful though
06:55:17 <shachaf> I think sponge's behavior should just be an option to the command that writes a file. And so should tee's behavior.
06:55:46 <zzo38> But not so good if you want to write immediately, such as may be useful if you are writing to a device.
06:55:59 <shachaf> The point of sponge is that it's delayed, because people rely on the shell when they don't want it delayed.
06:56:31 <ais523> hmm, /me looks at sponge
06:56:39 <ais523> there are some other interesting-looking programs in the same package
06:56:47 <zzo38> Yes, I know, it is the point sometimes is useful for delayed but sometimes when it isn't.
06:57:04 <shachaf> Yes, that package has all sorts of jams.
06:57:53 <ais523> oh, sponge seems to be designed for atomic output
06:58:00 <shachaf> Yes, that's the point of sponge.
06:58:11 <shachaf> cat file | sed ... | sponge file
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07:00:32 <zzo38> It can be useful for use with hamarc too I suppose, if you want to delete a lump from a Hamster archive for example
07:00:58 <izabera> sponge is a terrible idea...
07:01:34 <shachaf> The people who invented cat apparently think that concatenating files is its main use and displaying them is secondary.
07:02:14 <izabera> x | y | z <- z starts writing when it receives EOF, which means that y is not writing anymore to the pipe, but x can still be active and doing stuff with that file
07:02:52 <zzo38> shachaf: I think they are both primary (although the -v option still ought to be a separate program in my opinion)
07:03:24 <zzo38> The primary feature is to copy zero or more files, and possibly stdin, to stdout.
07:04:11 <shachaf> zzo38: Should grep mmap stdin if it's a file?
07:05:05 <izabera> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2010-August/019310.html
07:07:30 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you think programs should check if stdout is a terminal and behave differently?
07:08:53 <zzo38> shachaf: Depends on the program I suppose, but even then probably there should be the way to override it (even if it is a different program which is used to override it; for example cat changes it into a non-terminal, and perhaps another program could be made to do the opposite)
07:18:58 <zzo38> Many of my program I have written is filter, including "hamarc", "bamtovgm", "amigamml", "playmod", "xisynth", "utftovlq", and others.
07:20:03 <zzo38> (You can even do a "echo | amigamml | playmod | aplay" pipeline in order to preview a .XI file, although the .XI already has to be in a (seekable) file for this to work.)
07:23:01 <zzo38> I would want also .NSF player that is acting as a filter program, but one program execute the .NSF and puts the register writes to stdout (although it still has to process some registers internally due to the .NSF program can read status of some registers), and another program will process the register write data into audio, and then you use a third program to output the audio to the speaker (or compress it into Vorbis or whatever).
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07:35:32 <zzo38> Therefore you can replace the parts easily with other stuff, such as instead of rendering the register writes to audio you can make it convert to .VGM or speed up or slow down or transpose the music or replace the renderer with an experimental one or wire it to an actual Famicom cartridge or put a program that tries to make up a optimized .NSF that produces the same output, or something else.
07:39:20 <zzo38> You could also replace the first part with netcat or with the reverse conversion of .VGM or some other format, or to read MIDI input, etc. Even, the last part you can add special effects, write to a compressed file, etc
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07:46:54 <zzo38> Do you like this? At least I believe it is good idea
07:47:27 <shachaf> I don't know about NSF or VGM formats.
07:50:12 <zzo38> The NSF format is a file that contains a 6502 program to write registers for various sound chips used with Famicom. VGM is one format that is used to record the register writes for many different kind of sound chips.
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09:43:52 <izabera> https://github.com/izabera/reggen/blob/master/reggen first attempt at regex parsing with regex... for those who said that it's not possible...
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09:54:27 <ashl> i don't understand :P
09:54:55 <izabera> it takes a regex and prints a string that matches it
09:55:09 <ashl> ok, and who said that was impossible?
09:56:39 <izabera> ais523 | izabera: the regex language you're using is insufficiently powerful to nest parens
09:56:41 <izabera> ais523 | so I already know that whatever you've come up with is wrong
09:57:10 <ashl> that sounds like a different problem
09:57:16 <ais523> I guess the difference is that you're running a regex in a loop, so it's not a regex any more?
09:58:08 <ashl> the usual way of writing down regular expressions is not a regular language
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10:51:17 <boily> `` sed -i 's/the reals,/the reals, robots,/' wisdom/tanebventions
10:51:26 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/tanebventions: No such file or directory
10:51:48 <boily> `` ls wisdom/*anebv*
10:51:53 <boily> `` sed -i 's/the reals,/the reals, robots,/' wisdom/tanebvention
10:52:16 <HackEgo> Robots are deterministic finite Belgians that repeat themselves. Taneb invented them.
10:59:07 <boily> I moved the tanebventions over to a new chapter.
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11:44:13 <ashl> it allows arbitrary commands? :/
11:47:02 <nortti> yea, but it's sandboxed and under version control
11:47:08 <zzo38> That is how it works yes (although there are limits and sandbox and so on)
11:47:34 <ashl> what kind of sandbox ooi
11:51:13 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
12:07:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43866&oldid=43865 * SuperJedi224 * (-4)
12:13:39 <oren> Linux puppypc1015 3.9.11 #1 SMP Sat Jul 27 19:40:54 GMT-8 2013 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
12:14:42 <oren> or at least until purolator decides to deliver my damn computer
12:15:07 <int-e> sorry, but 4GB address space simply aren't enough.
12:15:23 <oren> mine has only 2GB
12:15:52 <int-e> (and the kernel takes between 0.5 and 2GB of that address space away for itself...)
12:16:50 <oren> if linux gets too bloated maybe I'll get minix or freebsd
12:17:55 <oren> actually I have no clue whether the freebsd kernel is bigger or smaller
12:18:44 <zzo38> Is it possible to get gzip(5) manual page, or is only gzip(1) available?
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12:20:40 <ashl> you're saying you want to know about the file format?
12:21:03 <zzo38> Yes, I would want the man page of the file format
12:21:20 <Trioxin> how the hell did i wind up here
12:21:42 <izabera> http://www.redblobgames.com/articles/visibility/ cool thingy
12:21:46 <ashl> Trioxin: a series of bad life choices
12:22:12 <zzo38> Trioxin: Just because it does; that's all.
12:22:21 <oren> presumably you wanted to write unnecessarily complex solutions to simple problems for the sake of fun?
12:22:22 <int-e> I guess you could convert RFC 1952 to a manpage
12:22:35 <Trioxin> so brainfuck stands at the pinnacle of these languages?
12:22:55 <int-e> brainfuck is too simple
12:23:24 <Trioxin> which (if any) are actually useful?
12:23:39 <zzo38> Trioxin: Useful for what? That is what it need to depend on!
12:23:40 <int-e> fungot: are you useful?
12:23:40 <fungot> int-e: ( i'm not familiar with the repl, but
12:23:43 <oren> brainfuck, befunge-98, dc, and funciton are my favorites
12:24:08 <oren> fungot is written in befunge
12:24:08 <fungot> oren: little kids should not be reached" etc. is that where your family is too?) and there i have to admit
12:24:29 <izabera> it just vomits random quotes <.<
12:24:29 <ashl> oren: dc the calculator?
12:24:38 <int-e> they're not quotes
12:24:43 <int-e> (most of the time)
12:24:52 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
12:24:55 <izabera> ok it just vomits something that looks like random quotes
12:24:57 <oren> (fungot is a bot who normally responds when spoken of but seems to be offline right now)
12:24:57 <fungot> oren: i don't know how to switch keyboard leds in c? _o.
12:25:09 <int-e> ^rerere and fungot does other things as well
12:25:09 <fungot> anadna dnf duf nufgnuogntog tod tod eodseo seo sto htoehtreh ret rht ihtnihgnisgn sga ssa saw sew lewllelll
12:25:31 <oren> anyway also i use dc at my work on a regular basis for calculating bitfields
12:26:21 <izabera> does ed count as an esoteric language?
12:26:23 <myname> oren: i am surprised by brainfuck
12:26:24 <zzo38> I sometimes use dc to calculate stuff
12:26:37 <oren> so befunge-98, dc are both actually useful
12:26:38 <zzo38> izabera: I don't know, maybe TECO does instead?
12:27:19 <izabera> zzo38: i wrote this yesterday to delete the trailing empty lines: ?.?+,$d is it esoteric? <.<
12:28:26 <izabera> it's not turing complete... :C
12:28:29 <zzo38> Is it possible to make vim to not use the alternate screen buffer when it is in ex mode, and use alternate screen only for vi mode?
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12:29:26 <fungot> izabera: why does. have a happy one then :) seems ok
12:29:54 <zzo38> Some things may be disputed and argue if it is esoteric programming, including dc and FurryScript and a few others?
12:30:16 <Trioxin> wow there are a ton of these langs. are any actually suitable for making any manor of general purpose applications?
12:30:18 <oren> i dunno dc is pretty much line noise
12:30:39 <oren> Trioxin: befunge-98 definitely is
12:30:52 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
12:31:09 <oren> that's the source of fungot in befunge-98
12:31:09 <fungot> oren: x1 x2 x3) instead of ( truncate 1.1) i want it
12:31:54 <zzo38> I still like dc for a kind of desk calculator I suppose like
12:32:05 <izabera> Trioxin: well someone wrote an irc bot in brainfuck, not sure if that counts... https://github.com/SirCmpwn/bf-irc-bot/blob/master/irc-bot.bf
12:33:51 <zzo38> Yes, such things are possible.
12:34:00 <Trioxin> lol befunge-98 looks like something already processed
12:35:49 <Trioxin> well, I can say that this is the first time since I was 9 that I looked at a programming language and saw gibberish
12:36:00 <oren> Trioxin: it's a two-dimensional language with one-character commands. control flow proceeds across the text in any direction
12:36:11 <myname> did you ever saw malbolge code?
12:37:49 <oren> there should be a category on the wiki for languages with file and network IO capabilities
12:37:53 <zzo38> Other ideas can be like befunge but different kind of geometry or different number of dimensions; there are some other multidimensional esolangs too
12:37:56 <myname> is funcitonnfeatured yet?
12:38:17 <zzo38> oren: Yes maybe it should be, in case of any ones.
12:38:41 <oren> funciton is a good one to feature
12:38:44 <Trioxin> i actually came here after searching around considering a new programming paradigm to learn
12:39:13 <Trioxin> out of curiosity. i don't think I would use any of these
12:39:58 <oren> another good one to learn is assembler
12:40:14 <HackEgo> MIPS Is Popular in Schools.
12:40:36 <zzo38> I know 6502 assembly programming
12:41:08 <myname> i know enough nasm to actually write stuff
12:41:44 <zzo38> Do you know Forth programming?
12:41:50 <int-e> x86 (outdated), AVR...
12:41:56 <zzo38> Do you know 6502 assembly language programming?
12:42:08 <ashl> i've not seen funciton before
12:42:35 <int-e> I don't. I mean I've read a bit of code, but I need an instruction reference to do that.
12:42:36 <myname> i want to write a compiler for it
12:43:37 <Trioxin> I use mostly procedural, oop, and some functional if you count c# and c++. I've been considering things like haskell, lisp, python. sometimes it's difficult to group languages into paradigms. some hybrid would be nice
12:43:52 <Trioxin> well, oop doesn't have to be procedural
12:44:25 <myname> how the hell is c# or c++ functional?
12:44:50 <myname> also: rust is a nice serious language
12:45:17 <Trioxin> they have some functional attributes
12:45:43 <int-e> template programming has been sort-of-functional all these years
12:46:53 <Trioxin> i thought a new paradigm or some hybrid might excite my imagination in machine learning applications
12:47:18 <Trioxin> or help me write less code
12:48:03 <myname> how come haskell is much more popular than curry?
12:48:24 <Trioxin> for instance functions/code being treated as a data type
12:48:41 <Trioxin> i know there's always eval functions but still
12:48:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43867&oldid=43866 * SuperJedi224 * (+41)
12:49:02 <myname> Trioxin: prolog or lisp?
12:49:08 <Trioxin> or easier ways of inference
12:49:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43868&oldid=43867 * SuperJedi224 * (-41)
12:49:48 <Trioxin> prolog seems a bit antiquated. lisp is old but still has a lot of contribution
12:49:54 <Trioxin> and idk what to make of python
12:50:24 <Trioxin> i tried to get into D but there's just not enough code out there to play with
12:50:38 <zzo38> I have used many different programming languages including BASIC, SQL, Forth, TI-92, and others including ones I invented by myself for various purposes
12:50:44 <myname> there is a saying in the rust channel
12:51:11 <myname> D is for C++ developers that like C++ and Rust is for C++ programmers that hate C++
12:52:52 <oren> sometimes though, I yearn for the simple days of Visual Basic 6
12:53:16 <zzo38> I have used VB6 as well
12:53:29 <myname> i didn't like it, though
12:53:30 <ashl> it's interesting how everyone got by without libraries in the olden days
12:53:50 <myname> the only nice thing about vb is the with keyword
12:54:16 <oren> they should make a IDE like VB for Python tk
12:54:38 <myname> and i do think the most hilarious one is "ON ERROR RESUME NEXT"
12:54:50 <oren> where you can drag and drop to create dialogues
12:55:32 <oren> that IDE made it simpler to write a GUI than a CLI
12:56:31 <fizzie> There's that generalised variant of "ON ERROR RESUME NEXT" where you register a segfault/etc handlers that just skip the faulting instruction, maybe setting some result registers to zero.
12:57:13 <Trioxin> these days I make cross platform programs in HTML5 (node-webkit) and do backend heavy lifting in native languages where necessary
12:57:27 <zzo38> Once (in year 2000 actually) I made a program in GWBASIC to allow making program in GWBASIC without line numbers, but you can add line labels into some lines.
12:57:40 <zzo38> But mostly these days I prefer to write program in C
12:58:00 <Trioxin> that way I can port lots of code to mobile via cordova/phonegap
12:58:48 <zzo38> I generally write command-line programs though; they are generally better than GUI
12:59:10 <oren> command line is good. ncurses is better
12:59:14 <Trioxin> i write a lot of CLI as well but mostly for server-side
12:59:29 <zzo38> That's why I wrote AmigaMML; I couldn't find any better program to make .MOD/.XM musics
12:59:40 <myname> server with command line and ncurses clients is best
13:00:16 <Trioxin> i usually make web interfaces
13:00:53 <zzo38> I prefer to use command-line for both server and clients (as well as the standalone programs which don't use a server and client, which would be most of them)
13:02:23 <Trioxin> I'm talking about programs for consumers. i've only rolled one for sale that was CLI
13:03:05 <oren> for users the best option these days is indeed usually a web service,
13:03:36 <Trioxin> yeah. even when I make a desktop app I always do most of the work server-side. no stealing
13:03:44 <oren> but only because Java is such a painful language to use
13:03:45 <zzo38> Wrappers with GUI or whatever can be done, but better computer programming design should be with command-line program in the general
13:04:09 <ashl> no stealing...
13:04:09 <oren> and python/perl don't really work on windows
13:05:22 <Trioxin> i don't code in it but i've seen windowing apps in it
13:05:24 <oren> Trioxin: how many people have python installed though
13:05:32 <zzo38> I prefer to make it local, it is faster, it can be use even if you do not have internet connection on that computer, and you can modify the program if needed to, and also privacy if that is also what you wanted
13:05:38 <Trioxin> they don't have to have py installed
13:06:04 <zzo38> Some programs is useful to use by internet, such as email for example, but most don't
13:06:05 <Trioxin> there are bundlers you could call compilers
13:06:17 <oren> oh? is there a .py compiler for win64 I don't know about
13:06:47 <oren> oh just a bundler. lame
13:07:03 <Trioxin> there's a PHP compiler for .net
13:07:19 <oren> PHP?!! NOOOOOOOOOO
13:07:48 <oren> PHP is cancer in the bones of the internet
13:08:12 <Trioxin> php is fine these days whereas it used to be a disaster
13:08:28 <zzo38> I did write this IRC client in PHP, and also wrote FurryScript in PHP, but later may redo them in C possibly
13:09:07 <oren> oh it's fine... if you like horrible inconsistency and type autoconversions
13:09:31 <Trioxin> a lot of languages have type casting
13:09:44 <oren> type casting is one thing
13:09:58 <oren> autoconversions are something very different
13:09:58 <zzo38> Actually there is many bad thing with PHP; I don't like it much
13:10:06 <Trioxin> auto somevar = "sfsdfs"; in D
13:10:42 <Trioxin> there are some bad things but the security concerns of old are no longer present as far as I'm aware
13:10:51 <oren> I'm talking about when you pass a string to a function expecting a number, and it converts it
13:11:00 <oren> rather than throwing an error
13:12:03 <zzo38> PHIRC and FurryScript aren't even webapps (although FurryScript supports being wrapped with another PHP file that is used on a webpage)
13:12:07 <Trioxin> treat it as a string, its a string
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13:12:07 <myname> in php, $a == $b && $b == $c && $a != $c is possibly
13:13:12 <oren> At my previous job that could happen in prod
13:13:31 <oren> caused hard-to-find bugs
13:14:15 <oren> Trioxin: yes, the solution was to replace a lot of == and != with === and !== respectively
13:14:15 <myname> the question is: why is == and != even there?
13:14:40 <myname> the answer is of cojrse shitty legacy code
13:15:16 <oren> At least Perl has separate string and number compares, as does Bash
13:15:44 <Trioxin> error_reporting(E_STRICT|E_ALL);
13:16:19 <Trioxin> but I won't go far into defending php. it's useful to me though
13:16:39 <oren> oh it is useful
13:17:05 <int-e> https://blog.whitehatsec.com/magic-hashes/ -- I like the term "magic hash"
13:17:07 <zzo38> I prefer programming in C and SQL though, if it can be used
13:17:21 <zzo38> oren: Yes, I think so
13:17:35 <oren> I wrote the CGI code in my website in bash and C
13:18:52 <Trioxin> horrible is a bit of an overstatement depending on use-case. I've written thousands of lines in a project with no problems. Javascript seems to be expanding enormously to try to do everything now though and I find myself writing a lot of it. I still refuse to use node server-side though.
13:19:47 <zzo38> I find JavaScript is better programming language than PHP, although I don't like using it for webpages
13:19:52 <Trioxin> which sounds terrible (writing desktop apps in javascript) but it's really not with things like webgl, webcl, webrtc
13:20:30 <Trioxin> and like I said when I use nw.js if I need heavy lifting on the backend of the app just write some native code
13:21:14 <oren> javascript is better but still bad. the fact that you need all these libraries that get downloaded over and over again from every website is proof of crappiness
13:21:25 <Trioxin> nothing is easier for a GUI. you basically make a responsive web site in the style of a program and you've got both a desktop and mobile app
13:22:16 <Trioxin> oren, libraries downloaded over and over?
13:22:59 <Trioxin> libraries are downloaded once with npm and executed locally
13:23:09 <zzo38> I generally prefer to make command-line program though; it is a much better way of working the computer, especially if it is the UNIX command-line rather than the Windows command-line.
13:23:15 <oren> yes. Jquery, jquery-ui, angular-js etc. each one, each programmer puts a minifd version of it on their own server, which is independent of the copied on every other server
13:24:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[REGXY]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43869&oldid=41343 * 190.23.223.48 * (-19) The generated source code of the implementation reads form STDIN and prints to STDOUT.
13:24:22 <oren> so hundreds of identical jquery.min.js files end up being downloaded
13:24:47 <oren> which is why I use a javascript whitelist
13:25:09 <Trioxin> that's the nature of using a library
13:25:28 <Trioxin> unless you want to blame the browser
13:25:40 <oren> the nature of using a library (in normal languages) is that the same .so file is used by many programs
13:25:53 <oren> (or .dll on windows)
13:25:57 <zzo38> Even with command-line program you can do the programs over the internet, such as with nc and curl and ssh
13:26:53 <Trioxin> download jquery, include in project, get's executed in implementation
13:27:26 <zzo38> I use sprunge for pastebin service since it can be use by command-line and doesn't need to use web-browser (although it can be used with web-browser too)
13:27:29 <Trioxin> zzo38, I've done that before
13:27:31 <oren> but on the user's system, he has 50 jquery.min.js files in the broswer cache
13:28:22 <Trioxin> oren, I suppose that's true and the fault of the browser if it isn't hashing the cache and reusing the files but I'm talking about JS for desktop and mobile apps
13:28:38 <oren> whereas he only has one, for example zlib.so
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13:29:59 <oren> Trioxin: if a user has several apps made by you, do you reuse the same jquery.js file for all of them
13:30:04 <Trioxin> oren, that is one thing that I don't like about browser implementations of javascript. some libs are so used they should probably be distributed with the browser but the browser cache can be hashed as to not redownload the same files
13:30:15 <zzo38> Synchronet door programs can also be written in JavaScript (it also supports door programs written in DOS for compatibility)
13:31:14 <oren> ideally there should be a browser extension for chrome or mozilla that has a tag like <>
13:31:47 <zzo38> Trioxin: No, the real problem is that webpages use a lot of JavaScripts and other stuff
13:32:07 <Trioxin> would be extra coding for something of little consequence in terms of a desktop app
13:33:05 <oren> <script "common-libraries://jquery.min.js"
13:33:15 <Trioxin> zzo38, they use what they need. You don't have to distribute the entirety of a library. I think jquery and others even have builders where you can specify what you want in them
13:33:18 <oren> that would help
13:33:52 <myname> oren: and then every hipster js dev would want his file as a common library
13:34:14 <Trioxin> that's what I was just talking about
13:34:17 <oren> right. but at least you could install them like an addon
13:34:49 <oren> similar to the way the current chrom and mozilla addons work
13:35:11 <Trioxin> i think a more sane solution would just be to hash the files in the cache. that's probably already being done. ISPs do it. I'm not sure about the browsers
13:35:57 <Trioxin> i'd be surprised if browser caches didn't use hashing
13:36:15 <zzo38> <script src="..." common-script="..."> that is another possibility (the "common-script" part would be a URI to identify the script (it can also be a UUID); if the user installs a script with that ID then the "src" is ignored; this occurs even if the user modifies the script so that it uses his own script instead of the one the server specified)
13:36:40 <Trioxin> oh wait nvm they have no way of receiving the hash unless it's in the modern http implementations
13:37:29 <Trioxin> so we just need an HTTP header to specify the hashes of the files we're about to serve
13:38:50 <Trioxin> or common-libraries:// sort of thing. javascript files don't take up a lot of space
13:38:55 <oren> zzo38: I like that
13:39:51 <Trioxin> zzo38, nobody but computer geeks would install such an addon
13:40:27 <Trioxin> best if browsers just kept up to date script versions
13:40:29 <oren> my browser cahache currently contains 30 copies of jquery
13:40:32 <zzo38> I am not suggesting a new kind of URI scheme, nor am I suggesting it has to be specific to scripts; it can also be use with CSS, pictures, documents, etc
13:40:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43870&oldid=43868 * SuperJedi224 * (+1886)
13:41:07 <Trioxin> zzo38, in that case, my hash header would be a better solution
13:41:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43871&oldid=43870 * SuperJedi224 * (+19)
13:41:41 <oren> wait, no only 10. 9 copies of jquery ui and a few other unidentified things
13:41:46 <zzo38> You could avoid having to install such addon if it is made the setting to make automatic installing and/or to have some preinstalled, and then user can override it.
13:41:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43872&oldid=43871 * SuperJedi224 * (+22)
13:42:00 <izabera> oren: total size in bytes?
13:42:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43873&oldid=43872 * SuperJedi224 * (+17)
13:42:43 <oren> each copy is 33000 bytes, so I guess 330000 bytes?
13:42:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43874&oldid=43873 * SuperJedi224 * (+2) /* Special Expressions */
13:42:59 <Trioxin> hashing is more practical and easier to implement by browser manufacturers
13:43:01 <zzo38> So, stuff with a "src" or "href" attribute can also have "common-id" attribute to specify to use a local version if it exists
13:43:02 <izabera> that's allot for the 1970s
13:43:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43875&oldid=43874 * SuperJedi224 * (+1) /* Instructions */
13:43:30 <oren> no. 1000 bytes was a lot in 1970
13:43:51 <izabera> are you seriously complaining about downloading 330k?
13:43:55 <myname> it's not about the size ...
13:43:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43876&oldid=43875 * SuperJedi224 * (+10) /* Instructions */
13:44:31 <oren> its about the amount of waste. I cleared my cache yesterday.
13:44:43 <zzo38> Rather than requesting the file from the server anyways (even if only the hashcode is needed)
13:44:51 <oren> multiply this by hundreds of people without js whitelists
13:45:23 <myname> 33k is actually a lot of text
13:45:34 <izabera> jquery does actually a lot of things
13:45:34 <oren> and millions of websites each with their own independent copy of jquery
13:45:50 <myname> most of them is unwanted by me
13:45:55 <Trioxin> I'm surprised the browsers aren't at least using hashes to not store duplicates
13:45:58 <oren> it adds up to billions of dollars wasted
13:46:00 <izabera> myname: then disable your js engine
13:46:26 <oren> (ove rthe course of history)
13:46:37 <myname> i do, but there are sites that actually load just fine, put a white iframe over everything and remove that with js
13:46:48 <izabera> Mozilla is not big because it's full of useless crap. Mozilla is big because your needs are big. Your needs are big because the Internet is big. -- http://www.jwz.org/doc/easter-eggs.html
13:47:07 <Trioxin> i use noscript so I hardly ever even download scripts unless I absolutely have to to view the content
13:47:11 <zzo38> myname: For those things I override the CSS
13:47:40 <myname> zzo38: i would do that if i intend to jse that sites regularly
13:48:01 <zzo38> The inspector can be used to temporarily change it, and Stylish can be used to make them permanent.
13:48:10 <oren> right. but no one is going to make js whitelists SOP
13:48:43 <Trioxin> oh yeah and my cache and cookies (As well as flash and other persistent crap) is deleted each time I leave a site not on my whitelist (a different addon)
13:49:00 <zzo38> Although I also use Stylish to get rid of large margins and so on
13:50:17 <zzo38> Or making fonts smaller, or reducing spacing between things, making icons smaller, etc
13:50:25 <oren> The problem I have isn't particular to do with my own problems. it has to do with the current SOP being harmful. Sort of like how microsoft screwed up big time by having macros enabled by default in Office
13:50:39 <Trioxin> firefox is best browser for mitigating waste and attack vectors with addons
13:51:18 <myname> firefox also has pentadactyl
13:51:22 <Trioxin> even FF mobile which can now use all the desktop addons
13:51:49 <Trioxin> which I have synced to my desktop with a private key
13:51:53 <zzo38> And removing useless headings and useless sidebars and stuff
13:52:22 <myname> zzo38: have you considered print css as your default?
13:53:28 <zzo38> myname: Is that possible? But, no because I would sometimes use forms and so on, and the width of the screen may change and may not be the same as that of the paper, etc
13:54:10 <oren> microsoft should have had a big red warnable button that you had to click before any macros would run.
13:54:14 <zzo38> For MediaWiki sites I can just use the built-in feature to customize the CSS and scripts, but for other things I can use client-side functions.
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13:58:19 <zzo38> Many things that are the default in Firefox aren't very good, so I had to change them by userChromeJS, Classic Theme Restorer, Status-4-Evar, Stylish, CookieKeeper, Policeman, other extensions, userChrome.css, userContent.css, about:config settings, removing toolbar buttons, modifying permissions and SQL schemas of files, and even hexediting libxul.so.
13:59:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43877&oldid=43876 * SuperJedi224 * (+262)
14:04:02 <zzo38> For example: if(location=="chrome://browser/content/browser.xul") window.losslessDecodeURI=function(aURI){return aURI.spec;};
14:04:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43878&oldid=43877 * SuperJedi224 * (+44)
14:08:02 <zzo38> Hexediting seemed the easiest way to get rid of HSTS
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14:17:12 <zzo38> Even I added the following SQL code: CREATE TRIGGER no_cfduid before insert on moz_cookies when new.name = '__cfduid' begin select raise(ignore); end;
14:19:00 <zzo38> Do you know how to program in SQL?
14:20:04 <zzo38> Then you must learn.
14:20:16 <myname> do you have a ressource?
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14:21:43 <myname> misstype on software keyboard
14:22:14 <zzo38> Information about SQL programming can be found in SQLite documentation
14:23:19 <zzo38> Even the Mandelbrot can be made with SQL.
14:25:53 <zzo38> Many stuff can be access only by webpages but I would want to be able to access it from within SQLite, with a SQLite extension; but unfortunately a virtual table cannot consume the OFFSET and LIMIT clauses like it can with WHERE and ORDER BY clauses.
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14:50:53 <oren> myname: are you using a tablet?
14:59:16 <oren> ah that explains it
15:00:09 <oren> Yeah. I find tablet keyboards hard to type on because I can't feel them
15:01:18 <oren> like you can't run your fingers over the keyboard without pressing buttons
15:01:20 <myname> longpressing annoys me way more
15:02:31 <oren> they should make a touchpad that senses how hard you're pressing
15:03:01 <myname> they should make modern laptops with trackpoints and a good resolution
15:04:42 <myname> i am using a sony vaio p and i love it. it's just too old
15:06:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43879&oldid=43878 * SuperJedi224 * (+188)
15:06:21 <oren> My new laptop has 1366x768 but it has a VGA port which I'll attach my big monitor to
15:06:39 <oren> http://shop.lenovo.com/ca/en/laptops/thinkpad/t-series/t540p
15:06:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43880&oldid=43879 * SuperJedi224 * (+60)
15:07:01 <myname> i do have 1600x768 and that's pretty fine
15:07:22 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
15:08:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43881&oldid=43880 * SuperJedi224 * (+146)
15:09:09 <oren> 'm especially looking forward to having a full-sized keyboard on the go again
15:09:30 <myname> i thought about buying a jorno
15:09:59 <myname> also, i like stuff that folds into compact dimensions
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15:26:53 <Hoolootwo> I have one of those palm foldables and it's kinda crappy
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16:56:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dennis * New user account
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18:55:02 <mauris_> well it is a programming language
18:55:04 <Melvar> I would say yes, but the tone of that question makes me think you have some specific universe in mind to quantify “anything” over.
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18:56:58 <mauris_> uh i think i killed it trying to find an interesting idris one-liner in /query D:
18:57:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43882&oldid=43621 * Rdococ * (+128) /* Computational class up for debate */
18:58:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43883&oldid=42408 * Rdococ * (+70) /* Structure */
18:59:13 <pikhq> Deewiant: Also, hi Deewiant.
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19:01:29 <Melvar> mauris_: Please don’t try evaluating diverging computations in idris-bot.
19:02:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folder]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43884&oldid=43883 * Rdococ * (+20)
19:02:37 <Melvar> Walpurgisnacht: Also sorry if I came off a bit aggressive, I got confused and thought this was in #idris, where that question would have been odder.
19:05:06 <mauris_> Melvar: eh, i would call that a pretty huge flaw in idris-bot. can't you make them time out?
19:05:18 <mauris_> (i'm assuming it's your bot)
19:05:19 <int-e> ( http://last.time.it.was.a.URL
19:05:19 <idris-bot> http://last.time.it.was.a.URL<EOF>
19:05:25 <Melvar> mauris_: It does. Its reaction to the timeout is to kill itself.
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19:06:10 <int-e> sorry, did I do that?
19:06:32 <Melvar> No, I just remembered I forgot to set its memory limit.
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19:07:57 <Melvar> mauris_: I’ve never gotten around to abstracting its repl-connection enough that it could create a new one. It’s not entirely trivial because it sets up a sandbox.
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19:37:52 <oren> on a scale of zero to dr.evil, how evil is this
19:37:55 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/scrip77.htm
19:38:49 <oren> representative line:
19:38:51 <oren> if(*g≥‘a’&&*g≤‘f’)*d←*g-‘a’,*dt←TY_INT8;
19:39:58 <oren> not just the font. It's also in my new "display C"
19:40:30 <oren> where == is ≡. and it has smart quotes
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19:42:08 <Melvar> I hope not actually “smart quotes”. Just typographical quotes.
19:42:37 <oren> well the original file is processed by a sed script to generate the htm file
19:42:43 <oren> so sort of smart
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19:45:10 <oren> maybe I should also mangle some of the other operators?
19:46:22 <oren> like I could replace ** with ⁑
19:47:33 <oren> and even [0] with ₀
19:49:58 <oren> or maybe this is a terrible idea
19:50:53 <oren> unless I can somehow make copypaste give the orginal code?
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20:19:26 <zzo38> CWEB will do some things like that for printout but the source file is the same original ASCII format so you can copy/paste it properly.
20:19:47 <zzo38> The fancy format is only if you print it out on the printer
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20:34:44 <oren> I abandoned the non-ascii and jsut put in highlighting
20:38:13 <boily> “... the fruit is believed to be a cure for a wide range of ailments, from rheumatism, snakebites, evil spirits, syphilis, and even tornadoes...”
20:38:47 <int-e> maybe it kills butterflies
20:40:12 <int-e> dang, now I'm wondering which Discworld novel has the butterfly with the fractal wings
20:41:26 <boily> that's a good one.
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20:42:26 <int-e> ah. http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Quantum_weather_butterflies
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20:47:50 <ashl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jtU9BbReQk
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20:53:11 <oren> finally! stuid css
20:54:13 <oren> I figured out an ok hack to mean "spans with a class that aren't inside a span"
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21:06:29 <zzo38> What kind of hack is that?
21:07:23 <oren> pre > span.m91
21:08:28 <oren> pre > span.m31
21:08:37 <oren> {color:maroon;}
21:10:50 <oren> the point is, in ansi to turn something red, you do ^[[91m. in my html, you do </span><span class='m91'>
21:11:44 <oren> but here with nested spans only the outermost should apply
21:12:04 <oren> so that keywords are not colored inside comments or strings
21:14:03 <oren> Ok I think I'm done adjusting the regexes
21:14:44 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/c2htm.sed
21:17:42 <zzo38> Just using regular expression to check for keyword and so on doesn't seem a best way you should tokenize it properly by starting from the beginning and figure out each token.
21:18:10 <oren> right but, see, that would be work
21:18:26 <oren> it works fine like this
21:18:28 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/scrip77.htm
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21:35:46 <mauris> your font is rather bad :(
21:36:07 <oren> which cahracters in particular?
21:36:24 <mauris> i think mostly that lowercase s is very harsh on the eyes
21:37:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Help, WarDoq!]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43885 * Dennis * (+3568) Created page with "'''Help, WarDoq!''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by Programming Puzzles & Code Golf user Dennis. It was designed to address the plentiful shortcomings of [..."
21:37:26 <oren> Ah. that's the way my handwritten s looks
21:37:27 <mauris> most other things are probably up to personal taste, but i'd definitely give that one more of a defined s shape
21:38:13 <oren> I used to write s as a backwards z all the time
21:38:32 <oren> I think my current s is overcorrection
21:39:14 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
21:40:00 <oren> that's all the characters I have.
21:41:39 <oren> As you can see the different shape helps a lot to distictify ŚśŜŝŞş
21:43:10 <mauris> what's your font-making tool of choice?
21:43:43 <oren> I made this one using fontstruct.com
21:44:02 <oren> (a website, not a DOS executable)
21:45:10 <zzo38> A DOS program probably you will not put ten letters anyways
21:45:54 <oren> it would have to be fntstrct.com
21:46:08 <boily> I miss the days of FONTST~1.COM names.
21:47:07 <oren> If you ever recover files off a typical flash dirive, you can go back to 8.3 names
21:48:24 <Sgeo> How do you have a three-tenth of a name?
21:49:39 * boily fractionally mapoles Sgeo
21:51:45 <FireFly> oren: hm, why not have the empty braille character be actually empty?
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21:52:31 <oren> eh, then it would be the same as space and nbsp
21:52:54 <FireFly> It would, yes, but otherwise you need to special-case the empty character when you want to use braille as pseudo-pixels
21:53:03 <FireFly> which, given the design of the braille characters, I guess is the intention here
21:53:32 <oren> maybe I should just have them be the same...
21:53:46 <FireFly> I'm not sure what the use of your current glyph for that would be
21:55:13 <oren> god fontstruct takes a long time to load 2000 characters
21:55:49 <oren> at least it's flash and not js
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21:59:21 <zzo38> I prefer METAFONT for printer font designing
22:00:15 <izabera> metafont sucks but nobody wants to admit it because they love knuth
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22:00:59 <zzo38> No, METAFONT is good
22:01:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:01:29 <izabera> i found it pretty unusable
22:02:09 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
22:02:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well izabera is trying to start a fight with zzo38, does that count?
22:02:41 <izabera> i'm not trying, i already succeeded
22:02:54 <oerjan> yes, but you're still doomed imo hth
22:03:37 <izabera> tex and derivatives are literally the only programs in the world that use type 1 fonts
22:03:45 <oren> JS is fine by itself but using JS+CSS+the DOM to do anything is completely fail
22:03:47 <izabera> they're incompatible with everything else
22:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> I want it to be more than just stylization (mostly because I can't art)
22:04:23 <izabera> and to design fonts you need a gui, not metafont
22:05:21 <oren> to design fonts all I really need is something like paint where I can set each pixel to on or off and drag the width around, but noooo....
22:05:28 <zzo38> METAFONT does support the online display too
22:05:54 <zzo38> That's for printer fonts though. For screen fonts I prefer a tile editor
22:06:13 <oren> instead apparently most programs for fonts instead make you draw curves??!?
22:06:22 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Client Quit).
22:06:38 <hppavilion[1]> And all my friends at the programming company I work for are offline
22:06:41 <izabera> drawing curves is infinitely better than writing code to draw curves
22:07:03 <hppavilion[1]> Thus preventing me from asking for help with design
22:08:11 <oren> izabera: well yes, it is better to draw curves that program curves, but I just want to decide whether each pixel is on or off
22:08:26 <oren> which metafont also doesn't support
22:08:28 <izabera> that's even more infinitely better
22:08:59 <zzo38> Actually METAFONT does support pixel on/off too
22:09:20 <zzo38> As well as both brush strokes and outlines (some people also say METAFONT does not support outlines, but they are wrong)
22:09:35 -!- Owner_ has joined.
22:09:51 <zzo38> Just turning individual pixels on/off isn't very good for printer fonts though
22:09:55 -!- Owner_ has changed nick to Guest34673.
22:10:08 <zzo38> But such thing is good for screen fonts.
22:10:41 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Page closed).
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22:11:18 <ashl> wonder why hppavilion
22:11:50 <izabera> macbook was probably taken
22:12:17 <ashl> what has that got to do with models of computer
22:12:31 -!- tromp has joined.
22:12:38 <zzo38> A standalone client is certainly going to be better than WebChat
22:14:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: nope what
22:14:42 <hppavilion[1]> I cleared the window so I don't know what you're talking about
22:15:27 <oerjan> i see. don't use that window clear command again hth
22:16:11 <oerjan> i haven't needed that in a long time
22:16:46 <oerjan> or maybe i would, if redrawing actually fixed anything
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22:28:15 <boily> hppavellon[1]. why the [1]?
22:28:42 <oren> I've updated my font. With more liquid crystal numbers and with new cursive letters!
22:29:19 <oren> ⓐⓑⓒⓓⓔⓕⓖⓗⓘⓙⓚⓛⓜⓝⓞⓟⓠⓡⓢⓣⓤⓥⓦⓧⓨⓩ are assigned as cursive letters
22:30:17 <mauris> oren: U+1D434 etc. exist!
22:30:25 <hppavilion[1]> And... my browser won't render oren's cursive letter message
22:30:42 <oerjan> `learn hppavilion[1] is described in the footnotes.
22:30:44 <mauris> (that's a weird little unicode block.)
22:30:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'hppavilion[1]': hppavilion[1] is described in the footnotes.
22:31:03 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
22:31:29 <oerjan> wait, he didn't always use the brackets?
22:32:05 <hppavilion[1]> the [1] is exclusively an IRC thing (and maybe later an other programmer thing thing)
22:32:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The channel where "The channel where is surrounding its own quotation" is surrounding its own quotation | Sir Fungellot does not fnord. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esangs.org/.
22:32:37 <mauris> do you have an (i'm afraid to ask) hp pavilion
22:32:49 <mauris> esangs.org good url shortener
22:33:07 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: A) I used to have one B) I didn't realize that'd happen. I'm using a new client
22:33:18 -!- oren has changed nick to DellLatitudeD620.
22:33:21 -!- mauris has set topic: The channel where "The channel where is surrounding its own quotation" is surrounding its own quotation | Sir Fungellot does not fnord. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
22:33:22 <hppavilion[1]> And since when have I had permission to change the subject?
22:33:33 <boily> `learn hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
22:33:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'hppavilion[1]': hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
22:33:55 <hppavilion[1]> I wouldn't think that'd be a permission we'd be trusted with
22:34:17 <oerjan> "Although porque, por qué, por que, and porqué have related meanings, they are not interchangeable." ARGH
22:34:28 <boily> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaurgh.
22:34:29 <hppavilion[1]> The 1 is actually just from my MC account when my original standard username, hppavilion, was taken
22:34:46 <boily> why don't we have a Venezuelan in the chännel when we need them...
22:34:48 -!- mauris has set topic: The channel where "The channel where \"The channel where \\\"The channel where \\\\\\\" | Sir Fungellot does not fnord. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
22:36:56 <olsner> boily: why a venezuelan in particular?
22:38:44 <boily> olsner: because we usually get visited by mislead Venezuelans. sometimes Colombians, too.
22:38:55 <HackEgo> [U+FF2F FULLWIDTH LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O] [U+FF2B FULLWIDTH LATIN CAPITAL LETTER K]
22:38:58 <mauris> hppavilion[1], characters your font can't handle
22:39:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Niblet]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43886&oldid=43782 * DigitalCannon * (+75)
22:39:10 <olsner> boily: weird, are they looking for the other kind of esoterica?
22:39:18 <olsner> maybe that's big there
22:40:12 <olsner> hmm, if esoterica is really big, wouldn't that make it unesoteric
22:40:20 <boily> olsner: no, they browse channels that start with #es*.
22:40:33 <oerjan> olsner: there's a venezuelan linux distribution known as canaima. somehow our channel is in their list of chats.
22:40:55 <olsner> this must be the channel for oteric in spanish
22:41:18 <oerjan> olsner: no, that's #oteric.es, i thought i'd made that clear once.
22:41:28 <olsner> not to me you haven't, but ok
22:41:43 -!- DellLatitudeD620 has changed nick to oren.
22:41:44 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i put it in the topic.
22:42:24 <oerjan> boily: i'm not entirely sure of that #es* explanation, since i've never actually seen where in the canaima menus or whatever they find us.
22:43:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43887&oldid=43882 * Hppavilion1 * (+388) Posed my counterargument
22:44:33 <boily> oerjan: it's thausible.
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22:49:18 <tswett> `le/rn os/Operating system.
22:54:03 * oerjan finds that wisdom disturbing.
22:55:05 <mauris> `le/rn os/The accusative plural of us.
22:55:06 -!- grotewold has joined.
22:56:35 <oerjan> `learn FurryScript is the hairiest of all esoteric languages.
22:56:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'furryscript': FurryScript is the hairiest of all esoteric languages.
22:56:50 <HackEgo> Only fools such as zzo38 and so on try to use AmigaMML on a PC. Real Men try to use AmigaMML on a Amiga computer. \ https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Frequently_and_unfrequently_asked_questions
22:58:20 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
22:58:40 <oerjan> mauris: your version is also somewhat wrong. the wisdom should normally make sense without the key.
22:58:57 <oerjan> of course you then managed to find one of the exceptions, bah
23:00:06 <mauris> "os is the accusative plural of us." would be good, but hackego commands are scary, and i won't mapole them with a 10-foot mapole
23:00:24 <oerjan> i feel that `le/rn instead of `learn is subtly eroding the wisdom format.
23:00:31 <zzo38> Then use a 10 metre mapole instead
23:00:38 <oerjan> `le/rn os/os is the accusative plural of us.
23:01:02 <oerjan> of course since it ends in -s, `learn is not quite appropriate there.
23:01:28 <oerjan> boily: i don't think we've ever established the length of the mapole
23:01:49 <oerjan> what is the mapole's lengt and body weigh
23:02:05 <mauris> clearly os is also the plural of o, and o is the ablative of us, and the diagram commutes.
23:02:24 <oerjan> but the ablative of os is is
23:02:55 <oerjan> and the plural of is is es
23:03:13 <oerjan> and the ablative of es is ibus hth
23:04:12 <oerjan> hm actually os isn't the plural of o unless you switch language
23:04:14 <zzo38> I had idea of a kind of program language that you can define rules and cards of Magic: the Gathering and of other card games, possibly you might define the card like: _:Counterspell a :CardDef; :name "Counterspell"; m:cost "UU"; :type :instant; :text "Counter target spell."; :spell-ability [:counter [:target :spell]].
23:04:22 <zzo38> Or maybe a bit different
23:04:39 <mauris> oerjan: that was my bad joke htdnh
23:04:42 <oerjan> the plural of o is [oi]nes
23:05:54 <oerjan> commutatis commutandis
23:08:26 <boily> oerjan: a regulatory mapole mesures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
23:09:42 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle.
23:10:13 <oerjan> `learn_append mapole A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
23:10:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'mapole': A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
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23:17:51 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:30:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43888&oldid=42927 * SuperJedi224 * (+13)