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00:46:16 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> what's wrong with ^blsq ? <-- mostly the fact fungot has never implemented it hth
00:46:17 <fungot> oerjan: termite handles the " tricky" stuff? ( vague recollection of a talk.
00:47:01 <oerjan> fungot: provided the tricky stuff is made of wood
00:47:01 <fungot> oerjan: it really should use char=?
00:49:13 <mauris> can lambdabot's @unlambda accept input somehow?
00:49:13 <HackEgo> recursion/You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW
00:49:18 <Melvar> hppavilion[1]: It’s whale + horse. “horse” used to be “hros”.
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00:51:58 <Melvar> It used to take a plural in -er, but this has fallen completely out of use in English.
00:55:00 <oerjan> @unlambda ```s`d`@|i`ciMaybe...
00:55:32 <Melvar> In German there’s actually two options, it can be “Walrosse” or “Walrösser”, with the former more common. (With bare “Ross”, it is “Rösser” that is the more common option.)
00:55:49 <oerjan> since unlambda is LL(0), the parser just leaves the remainder of stdin for the program
00:56:31 <oerjan> (technically this means the implementation doesn't support comments or whitespace after the program)
00:57:48 <mauris> ^ i thought this would be putchar(getchar())
00:59:01 <mauris> unlambda is so ugly ;o;
00:59:56 <oerjan> I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl
01:00:51 <mauris> "In my version of Netscape,"
01:00:59 <oerjan> preferably with a browser that understands linux line endings GAH
01:04:08 <mauris> i don't think i could write an unlambda interpreter in Python :(
01:04:20 <oerjan> you'd probably need a trampoline
01:05:04 <oerjan> or the original C version, which is a translation of the Java one iirc
01:07:07 <mauris> oh, is this just a roundabout way to do TCO
01:08:44 <oerjan> nowadays i just say CC-0 if i remember
01:09:43 <mauris> i should find out about: licenses
01:09:48 <mauris> and why there are a billion of them
01:10:38 <shachaf> mauris: do you know how i chose the mit license
01:11:34 <shachaf> I actually wanted to modify the license to make it even shorter.
01:11:41 <oerjan> my university collaborator at the time was/is a great GPL supporter. did i mention how he managed to get a GPLv3+ licensed open source project started in the oil industry...
01:11:45 <shachaf> But then I wouldn't be able to pick "MIT" in Cabal and so on.
01:12:08 <mauris> the "wtfpl" probably has it beat! but it's dumb
01:12:26 <shachaf> https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/7.6.3/docs/html/libraries/Cabal-1.16.0/Distribution-License.html
01:15:04 <mauris> http://i.stack.imgur.com/CZIoa.png neat!
01:15:21 <mauris> except my head hurts, tdnh
01:16:32 <shachaf> try rotating the screen instead hth
01:17:17 <izabera> trying to produce a list of possible corrections for a word that's been misspelled. can you think of a way that doesn't require to go through the entire dictionary?
01:17:43 <shachaf> @google spelling correction algorithm
01:17:44 <lambdabot> http://norvig.com/spell-correct.html
01:18:26 <mauris> ^ this is good and i hear Bloom filters help too
01:20:23 <izabera> that's going through the entire dictionary
01:22:58 <oerjan> <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you don't. the maintainer of fungot adds it if he thinks it's useful. <-- ithm me hth
01:22:58 <fungot> oerjan: i often just cast code into the interpreter.
01:23:24 <oerjan> fungot: well that's how i actually _do_ it, of course.
01:23:24 <fungot> oerjan: no problem. well, yeah, whatever
01:24:37 <hppavilion[1]> I think Esolangs needs an Esoteric Software License that people can put content under
01:24:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: part of the point of ^prefixes is to keep it synchronized between all the bots that implement it. so please don't try to fix it if you don't know how.
01:29:46 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
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01:51:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: herro: not found
01:51:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: greet: not found
01:51:47 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: for 4.1 to 4.0 i need to do unit testing for some reason. i get it
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02:45:53 <oerjan> gah the neighbor has some kind of once-a-minute alarm going off
02:45:59 <oerjan> in the middle of the night
02:46:13 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Fri Sep 11 04:46:13 2015
02:46:15 <oerjan> (i don't _think_ it's in my apartment.)
02:46:55 <shachaf> how would you feel about a work day starting at 05:45 mgitwnh
02:48:00 <oerjan> i cannot imagine that they're home...
02:48:37 <oerjan> unless it actually _is_ in my apartment. it's eerily close to the fan and it seemed to get louder when i turned it on...
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02:49:04 <oerjan> but why would there be an alarm when i cut the power...
02:49:16 <oren_> it's on the floor above,
02:49:39 <oren_> a phone is running out a batteries lying on the floor unattended
02:54:49 <oerjan> my best triangulation says it's _probably_ behind the wall behind the kitchen bench / stove
02:55:29 <oerjan> i assume the neighbor's kitchen is there?
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03:02:34 <^v> going to make a esolang that consists of only ^ and v
03:10:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ´`: not found
03:27:17 <^v> shachaf, i am only ^v here
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03:58:04 <oren_> there are too many binary esolangs
03:58:44 <oren_> err, I mean esolangs with only two symbols in source, not esolangs that use binary numbers
04:11:11 <zgrep> oren_: That is why there should be an esolang with only one symbol.
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05:49:40 <izabera> https://github.com/izabera/c-bits/blob/master/emg/spell.c how is this
05:50:36 <izabera> reads words and checks their spelling
05:50:49 <izabera> any idea to make it faster?
06:01:17 <myname> well, you could built a trie
06:01:45 <myname> lookup is O(length of input)
06:02:00 <izabera> i thought about it but the slow part is producing the corrections
06:02:53 <izabera> lookup takes at most 17 steps with my dictionary
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06:48:43 <Jafet> izabera: http://julesjacobs.github.io/2015/06/17/disqus-levenshtein-simple-and-fast.html
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07:25:37 <ashl> for producing corrections at least
07:25:47 <ashl> for looking up, tries are nice
07:28:10 <ashl> not that a trie isn't just an automaton in disguise
07:29:07 <b_jonas> I have multiple questions.
07:30:04 <b_jonas> Firstly, what's the resolution of the highest resolution TFT monitors these days?
07:33:54 <ashl> i don't know, 3840 x 2160?
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07:45:04 <b_jonas> ashl: well, I was just wondering. I realized that my code would have an interger overflow if you called it with a video of size 8192x8192 pixels, and I was wondering how close we are to those kind of videos getting common.
07:45:42 <ashl> ` echo 8192 8192 \* p | dc
07:45:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
07:46:23 <ashl> `` echo 8192 8192 \* p | dc
07:46:40 <ashl> why would it overflow there
07:47:02 <b_jonas> I allocate an array of size 8 bytes per pixel, plus some extra, and index it with an int32_t
07:48:12 <ashl> my dc-fu is not very good
07:48:27 <ashl> i should have used 8192d*p
07:49:07 <ashl> Virgolang: what are you doing and why
07:49:17 <HackEgo> dc: option requires an argument -- 'e' \ Usage: dc [OPTION] [file ...] \ -e, --expression=EXPR evaluate expression \ -f, --file=FILE evaluate contents of file \ -h, --help display this help and exit \ -V, --version output version information and exit \ \ Email bug reports to: bug-dc@gnu.org .
07:52:09 <myname> english is not your native language, i suppose
07:52:42 <myname> "is it have an bf evaluator"
07:53:55 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
07:53:57 <b_jonas> found the answer in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_monitor#Resolution
07:54:14 <b_jonas> "Apple ... introduced a 5120x2880 Retina iMac at 27 in (69 cm) on October 16, 2014. By 2015 all major display manufactuers had released 3840x2160 resolution displays."
07:54:33 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
07:57:01 <myname> just to point it out: the help doesn't say a word about ^add even existing
07:59:48 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
08:00:18 <myname> it also does not say a word about ^prefixes existing
08:00:55 <b_jonas> `le/rn resolution/As of 2015, highest resolution commercial computer monitors are 5120x2880 Apple and 3840x2160 other.
08:01:06 <HackEgo> As of 2015, highest resolution commercial computer monitors are 5120x2880 Apple and 3840x2160 other.
08:01:32 <b_jonas> myname: do you think the help tells everything?
08:01:51 <b_jonas> myname: the fungot help doesn't even tell about the ^prefixes command
08:01:52 <fungot> b_jonas: about the silly heap limit on osx/ x86...) with ( if ( for-me? ( fnord,
08:03:55 <myname> b_jonas: isn't that just a trivia?
08:04:39 <myname> why does everybody have to have bots now
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08:11:19 <b_jonas> myname: now? I've been running an irc bot since 2005-12
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08:11:50 <VirgoBeta> Topics are: unlambda ul bf join help hi
08:12:00 <VirgoBeta> Usage: &ul <ul_code>. Not implemented yet.
08:12:04 <b_jonas> Heck, I should probably prepare something to celebrate the tenth anniversary this Christmas
08:12:19 <VirgoBeta> Usage: &unlambda <unlambda_code>. Not implemented yet.
08:12:34 <b_jonas> VirgoBeta: add all of the big six!
08:14:12 <b_jonas> wait, what was the big six? INTERCAL, Befunge, Brainfuck, Unlambda, Underload, and what's the sixth? Piet? Chef? I don't think it's chef.
08:15:02 <fizzie> b_jonas: comp, humanities, misc, news, rec, sci, soc and talk. Wait, that's the big 8 of Usenet.
08:16:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: http://www.xkcd.com/1417/
08:17:03 <fizzie> b_jonas: While the displays aren't quite up there, 8K video does exist, but it's 7680x4320. I haven't heard of anything bigger than that becoming "mainstream" in any sense of the word.
08:17:54 <fizzie> "One advantage of high-resolution displays such as 8K is to have each pixel be indistinguishable from another to the human eye from a much closer distance. On an 8K screen sized 52 inches (132 cm), this effect would be achieved in a distance of 50.8 cm (20 inches) from the screen --" (Wikipedia, "8K resolution").
08:17:59 <fizzie> Sounds like a good advantage.
08:18:21 <fizzie> I'm sure many people watch their 52" TVs sitting half a meter away from them.
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08:26:18 <b_jonas> no wait, I was right the firs ttime
08:26:33 <b_jonas> I allocate an array of size 32 bytes per pixel in the image, plus a very small overhead
08:26:53 <b_jonas> so it would overflow an int32_t for a 8192*8192 image
08:33:51 <myname> "hey, i know, i make ANOTHER bot that interprets bf"
08:34:11 <Virgolang> you can look into Virgobeta's repo on GitHub
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08:37:23 <ashl> yes, an IRC bot that implements piet would be good
08:37:24 <fizzie> b_jonas: That doesn't sound big enough. I mean, 8192 * 8192 * 32 = 2^12 * 2^12 * 2^5 = 2^(12 + 12 + 5) = 2^29.
08:38:22 <ashl> i for one regularly type out piet programs on IRC
08:38:47 <ashl> Virgolang: can you please add a piet interpreter to the bot
08:39:03 <ashl> you could also add a piet IDE to the bot's tk interface
08:42:14 <fizzie> Slightly related: xvinfo reports the maximum size of hardware-accelerated videos (for Xv, anyway), and as I've switched graphics cards (Matrox Mystique 220 to G200 to G450 to a series of GeForce cards I couldn't recall the names of, to GTX 660) I think that's been steadily growing; I remember seeing sizes around 2048x2048, 8192x8192 and the current one says 16384x16384.
08:42:55 <b_jonas> let me count it again on my fingers
08:43:18 <fizzie> 2^29 is a lot of fingers.
08:43:32 <b_jonas> yes, that's probably why I made a mistake
08:43:35 <fizzie> There's a song about having too many fingers.
08:44:04 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, you've made the mistake
08:44:25 <fizzie> I was just testing you.
08:44:40 <fizzie> I knew that, but somehow mungled when verifying.
08:44:59 <fizzie> I mean, I obviously know that 12-bit color is 4096 and so on.
08:45:05 <b_jonas> so you don't have enough fingers either
08:45:20 <fizzie> "Too many fingers / have I got in my hand / I think there happened a creature / an alien creature", paraphrasing the song.
08:45:37 <fizzie> (It rhymes better in Finnish.)
08:45:47 <ashl> does it also grammar in finnish?
08:46:05 <fizzie> ashl: It's kind of nonstandard grammar also in Finnish, so I tried to be true to the original.
08:46:41 <fizzie> ("Liikaa sormia / ompi mulla kädessä / taisi käydä olio / avaruus-olio.")
08:47:36 <fizzie> It goes on to lament the plurality of fingers, and seeking for a way to get rid of them.
08:48:53 <Virgolang> it downloads the piet image and starts interpreting
08:51:14 <ashl> oh, i was hoping it would interpret colour codes in the IRC message
08:58:53 <myname> ashl: you could even interpret the text itself
08:59:02 <myname> let's add more dimensions
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09:09:00 <b_jonas> Ok, second question. In what turn-based strategy games is there a voluntary conduct of never escaping from a fight except before your first move, whether by running away or by magically teleporting away with some item or magic?
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09:09:42 <Virgolang> virgobeta's prefix is =. (fixed clashing with gribble)
09:09:46 <VirgoBeta> Topics are: hi bf ul join unlambda help
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10:08:44 <izabera> uhm i'm reading this link that Jafet showed http://julesjacobs.github.io/2015/06/17/disqus-levenshtein-simple-and-fast.html
10:09:16 <izabera> i only want words with levenshtein distance = 1 from my word
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10:43:29 <fizzie> It's the same asymptotic complexity. I don't think you can say much more without benchmarking. Also, yours is the Damerau-Levenshtein distance.
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10:59:59 <athenabot> Athena, Version: 0.97b ---- Codname: Twisty Turtle. Commands: ath.bf, ath.be, ath.ul, ath.eval, ath.join <channel>, ath.[d,b,h]2[d,b,h], ath.ccount, ath.time, ath.list, ath.leave, ath.reload, ath.source, ath.xkcd, ath.tr
11:06:20 <b_jonas> Third question. In linux with vga text mode console, how do you control the cursor shapes, that is, which scanlines of the character it occupies?
11:09:40 <bender|> I don't think you can, if you want to stick to the standard libraries.
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11:31:40 <b_jonas> bender|: I don't care about standard libraries. I want an escape sequence or an ioctl.
11:32:14 <b_jonas> I looked at the manual and didn't find one
11:32:20 <b_jonas> but it's unlikely that there isn't a way.
11:32:32 <b_jonas> Maybe I should look in the kernel sources.
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11:34:37 <VirgoBeta> -> https://www.facebook.com/Google
11:34:37 <VirgoBeta> -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google
11:34:38 <athenabot> An error occurred while processing the link.
11:34:40 <athenabot> Title: Google - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
11:35:20 <VirgoBeta> Topics are: help leave hi google joinst join unlambda ul bf
11:35:34 <VirgoBeta> -> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck
11:35:34 <VirgoBeta> -> http://esolangs.org/wiki/malbolge
11:36:19 <VirgoBeta> -> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list
11:36:19 <VirgoBeta> -> https://www.facebook.com/Antnatan
11:36:19 <VirgoBeta> -> https://www.facebook.com/liucija.razguviene
11:36:23 <athenabot> An error occurred while processing the link.
11:36:30 <VirgoBeta> -> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sws/pubs/sbs13.pdf
11:36:30 <VirgoBeta> -> https://igor.io/2014/10/04/end-the-war-on-tabs.html
11:36:30 <VirgoBeta> -> https://www.facebook.com/anastasia.mihailovskaia?fref=nf
11:36:34 <athenabot> Title: Department of Computer Science
11:36:37 <VirgoBeta> -> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list
11:36:37 <VirgoBeta> -> https://www.facebook.com/Antnatan
11:36:37 <VirgoBeta> -> https://www.facebook.com/liucija.razguviene
11:36:37 <athenabot> An error occurred while processing the link.
11:36:41 <athenabot> An error occurred while processing the link.
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11:55:34 <myname> don't interfer with other bots
11:56:53 <myname> the commonly used way to go is to prepend every output with a zero-width space
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13:30:39 <ashl> i would have used ♍ as the prefix
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13:39:32 <myname> go ahead, it will likely not become a bot prefix
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13:41:07 <izabera> how about using the zero width space as a trigger
13:41:33 <myname> go ahead and get banned
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15:05:57 <b_jonas> I wanted to ask something about terminals
15:06:27 <b_jonas> In linux with vga text mode console, how do I control the cursor shapes, that is, which scanlines of the character it occupies?
15:06:51 <ais523> =bf +++++++++++++.>++++++++++++++[>++++>++>++++++++>++++++<<<<-]>>>>---.++++.------------.+++++++++++.<<++++.<++.>>+++.+.>+++++++++++++++++++++.+++..<<.>++.-.>.++.<----------------.>++++.<----.+.>------.<+++.<<+++++.
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15:06:59 <b_jonas> There's bound to be a control sequence or ioctl for this, but I haven't seen one in the docs. I haven't yet searched in the Linux source.
15:07:09 <ais523> Virgolang: looks like it's outputting \r as newline, that'll also need escaping
15:07:15 <ais523> (i.e. replacing with " \ ")
15:07:28 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it's the irc server that interprets \r as newline
15:08:17 <Virgolang> blocks commands from who are in its ban list
15:08:32 <Virgolang> and it saves time, reason and ban count
15:09:09 <b_jonas> ais523: and an unconnected question: In what turn-based strategy games is there a voluntary conduct of never escaping from a fight except before trying any other move. Escaping can count plain running away, or magically teleporting with an item etc.
15:09:14 <ais523> b_jonas: "Ioctl's are undocumented Linux internals, liable to be changed without warning."
15:09:20 <ais523> could explain why I can't find one for cursor size
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15:09:34 <b_jonas> ais523: well sure, but the console_ioctl manpage documents them.
15:09:40 <ais523> b_jonas: you mean a tracked conduct?
15:09:50 <ais523> there are some that track how many times you escape altogether
15:09:53 <ais523> =bf +++++++++++++.>++++++++++++++[>++++>++>++++++++>++++++<<<<-]>>>>---.++++.------------.+++++++++++.<<++++.<++.>>+++.+.>+++++++++++++++++++++.+++..<<.>++.-.>.++.<----------------.>++++.<----.+.>------.<+++.<<+++++.
15:10:00 <ais523> seems to be working now
15:10:04 <b_jonas> If you can point to how to change them with some higher level thing, like the kbd programs or a library, sure, I can figure out the ioctl from that I think.
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15:10:15 <VirgoBeta> Topics are: google join unlambda help ul hi bf joinst leave
15:10:25 <ais523> b_jonas: it's not a setting that I know how to change
15:10:31 <VirgoBeta> Same with join, but does not leaves current channel.
15:10:40 <b_jonas> Yes, conduct tracked by the game.
15:10:53 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't think there are any which track "contested escapes"
15:11:09 <ais523> except possibly games where all escapes are contested due to game mechanics
15:11:39 <ais523> (Pokémon Ranger doesn't track escapes AFAIK, maybe it does, but it has a rule that you can't escape a fight unless one of your opponents is damaged)
15:12:43 <b_jonas> ais523: I was thinking of this because some dosish programs use two different non-invisible cursor sizes to indicate some sort of state, such as insert mode vs overstrike mode
15:13:08 <b_jonas> usually two out of (block, lower half block, low line).
15:14:10 <ais523> I seem to remember it was settable in DOS, although I can't remember how
15:14:16 <ais523> some interrupt perhaps
15:14:43 <ais523> I assume the VGA cursor is a hardware feature?
15:14:48 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it's a hardware feature
15:15:07 <b_jonas> you specify it as a starting scanline and ending scan line within the character
15:15:18 <b_jonas> it can be broken so you get a top and a bottom line, but nobody does that
15:15:41 <b_jonas> in graphics mode I think there's only soft cursor
15:15:54 <VirgoBeta> Topics are: google join unlambda help ul hi bf joinst leave
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15:18:03 <b_jonas> So I wondered if I could use two or three different visible cursors to indicate state in my programs. I can probably patch urxvt, but I'd prefer a standard interface like an escape sequence that at least some terminal already supports, over making up my own.
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15:18:35 <b_jonas> I know there's an escape sequence for making the cursor invisible or visible.
15:18:48 <b_jonas> But I don't (usually) want an invisible cursor.
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15:39:32 <VirgoBeta> Topics are: google join unlambda help ul hi bf joinst leave
15:39:58 <VirgoBeta> Moves Virgobeta to the specific channel. Recommended to use PM.
15:40:36 <VirgoBeta> -> http://www.learnpython.org/en/Hello,_World!
15:40:37 <VirgoBeta> -> http://introcs.cs.princeton.edu/11hello/HelloWorld.java.html
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16:24:23 <Virgolang> i am writing an configuration,ban,betascripting modules for my bot.
16:33:20 <shachaf> I would prefer if you did it somewhere else.
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16:44:07 <oerjan> ais523: yo i'm tempted to do a #fixyourconnection ban...
16:44:23 <ais523> oerjan: but it's not my connection and I don't have perms to fix it
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16:44:36 <oerjan> although mostly because of how ##nomic looks, which doesn't help.
16:44:37 <ais523> I am aware that it's broken
16:46:00 <zzo38> Is it possible to do SSH with a one-time-pad (in addition to other security measures)?
16:48:45 <ashl> a cursory Internet Search suggests a simple way of doing it: http://www.volkerschatz.com/net/1timepad.html
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16:59:40 <ashl> how do you intend to get the pad to the server
17:00:15 <zzo38> Presumably with a disk.
17:06:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
17:09:02 * ashl wonders what zzo38 is doing that requires such security
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17:15:04 <HackEgo> olist 1004: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
17:15:29 <FireFly> zzo38: kind of impractical though to only be able to transfer a set amount of data (until the pad runs out)
17:19:23 <ashl> `` cat bin/olist
17:19:24 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ shachaf \ oerjan \ Sgeo \ FireFly \ boily \ nortti
17:19:52 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript
17:20:48 <ashl> i don't understand.
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17:56:43 <Virgolang> its name is temporarily virgotheta
17:56:48 <VirgoTheta> Topics are: config bf help joinst addban hi bantime leave google banwhy ul unlambda join
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17:59:46 <quintopia> without i/o a language is not worth being a language?
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18:01:30 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion
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18:20:53 <kallisti> Hello I am a new person so this place is new to me what are the new things happening here?
18:21:33 <myname> people doing weird stuff
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18:23:54 <kallisti> so I went back to my old wikipedia stuff a while ago, and found that a terrible metaspace essay I wrote in 2006 is still there, and has been nominated for deletion 5 times.
18:24:00 <kallisti> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Don%27t-give-a-fuckism_(5th_nomination)
18:24:35 <HackEgo> kallisti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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18:25:08 <kallisti> ais523: I'm actually not new but thanks. I guess I haven't been here in so long that I might as well be new.
18:25:11 <ais523> currently the main activity in-channel is Virgolang testing a bot; however there are various people working on esolang projects on teh side
18:25:30 <ais523> I've resurrected The Underlambda Project, now with capital letters
18:25:50 <ais523> so far I have a compiler that compiles brainfuck into an unimplemented language; the compiler itself is written in a different unimplemented language
18:25:54 <ais523> as a result I don't have much of a way to test it
18:26:14 <kallisti> wow seems very official with that capital letter
18:27:01 <kallisti> hm, sounds like there hasn't been much work into the field of testing unimplemented software. Perhaps this is something we need to progress?
18:27:37 <kallisti> perhaps write an unimplemented proof checking language for testing unimplemented code
18:29:18 <myname> ais523: didn't you learn unit testing!
18:30:10 <ais523> myname: doesn't that require some way to actually run the program?
18:30:40 <myname> nah, look at kallistis proposal
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18:32:58 <kallisti> I mean, there's a lot of work on implementations of things, but not a lot of people have developed unimplemented software and I think this is an area of development we could pioneer. There's certainly a lot of missing tools that need to be unimplemented in order to unimplement other software.
18:36:46 <kallisti> the way wikipedia works is actually insane
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18:46:14 <zzo38> Yes you are right, but it is better than nothing!
18:48:19 <tswett> kallisti: you know, conventional wisdom is that unimplemented software is difficult to use because it's unrunnable.
18:48:37 <tswett> I think we need to think twice before dismissing unrunnable software, though.
18:49:10 <myname> we have a wiki full of it
18:49:16 <zzo38> Is there a patch for xterm to implement ANSI music?
18:49:35 <tswett> Although most software produced nowadays is runnable, there's a large supply of unrunnable software as well.
18:49:46 <tswett> We need to determine what some ways are to put unrunnable software to good use.
18:50:00 <tswett> There are lots of things you can do with unrunnable software, after all, such as static analysis.
18:50:12 <zzo38> Yes, that can be the use
18:51:25 <ais523> kallisti: you see the "Previous AfDs for this article:" box (which is apparently misnamed as that's an MfD?) I implemented that
18:51:35 <ais523> (someone seems to have copied the code over to MfD)
18:53:04 <ais523> wow are there a lot of comments on the fourth MfD
18:55:01 <kallisti> ais523: I just find it simultaneously amusing and disturbing that an essay my 15 year-old self wrote in 2006 has been revised and maintained for 9 years and been in numerous burecratic processes, and linked on approx. 1500 different meta-pages
18:55:16 <ais523> that said, I'm also responsible for the code behind Wikipedia's current AfD process, I'm surprised it hasn't been rewritten since
18:56:31 <kallisti> ais523: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:The_prophet_wizard_of_the_crayon_cake also this is what happens when you let anyone change your user page for 9 years
18:57:01 <ais523> oh right, as soon as you linked that I remembered that kallisti=CakePropher
18:57:07 <ais523> but somehow I'd forgotten before then
18:57:29 <kallisti> mostly unchanged since last I looked, but still has recent edits. probably a lot of "vandalism" reverts
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19:41:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44134&oldid=44129 * Hppavilion1 * (+8) Reworded some stuff
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20:04:42 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
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20:28:39 <hppavilion[1]> Can someone read over my current ISA design and critique it?
20:30:11 <hppavilion[1]> https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/TaurusVM/blob/master/docs/setdocs.txt
20:30:26 <zzo38> OK let me to see too
20:30:42 <hppavilion[1]> Unless, of course, you download it and use NP++ or something
20:31:03 <hppavilion[1]> Those are just the way they're represented in the executables
20:31:30 <lambdabot> dict provides: dict-help all-dicts bouvier cide devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon thesaurus vera wn world02
20:31:32 <ais523> huh, strangely enough I was thinking about something myself recently
20:31:37 <ais523> (asm with varargs opcodes)
20:32:28 <ais523> however, my aim was a little different: it was to try to create a compressed executable format
20:32:38 <ais523> where the instruction encodings for a given program were as short as possible
20:32:54 <hppavilion[1]> And it isn't compressed at all (EVERY argument is 64 bits xD)
20:32:58 <ais523> what happens when you divide by zero?
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20:33:35 <ais523> hmm, Unicode asm, that's new
20:33:57 <ais523> I assume this is intended as a VM bytecode rather than a processor machien code?
20:34:39 <ais523> meh, apart from the crazy arithmetic operators like sin (which shouldn't be too hard to implement), doing all this in Verity would be pretty easy
20:35:00 <ais523> assuming you can come up with some consistent definition of what stdin/stdout/stderr are and the like
20:35:03 <shachaf> "We identify a timing channel in the floating point instructions of modern x86 processors: the running time of floating point addition and multiplication instructions can vary by two orders of magnitude depending on their operands. We develop a benchmark measuring the timing variability of floating point operations and report on its results. We use floating point data timing variability to demonstrate practical attacks on the security of the ...
20:35:05 <ais523> actually, I do have one piece of advice
20:35:09 <shachaf> ... Firefox browser (versions 23 through 27) and the Fuzz differentially private database. Finally, we initiate the study of mitigations to floating point data timing channels with libfixedtimefixedpoint, a new fixed-point, constant-time math library."
20:35:17 <ais523> don't assume a specific number of standard streams; rather, have "stream handles" which are integers
20:35:36 <ais523> so instead of FLSHOUT, have a FLSH instruction that takes a stream handle as an argument, and flushes that stream
20:35:45 <int-e> two orders of magnitude, ouch...
20:35:46 <ais523> likewise for input, output, etc.
20:36:37 <ais523> that way, an implementation can decide what I/O sources it supports, without needing new special-case opcodes for new platforms
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20:36:51 <ais523> (I also suggest you use 0 for stdin, 1 for stdout, 2 for stderr)
20:37:54 <ais523> and Verity is my day job; the website about it (not my website) is up at http://veritygos.org/
20:38:21 <ais523> it includes a compiler download, if you want to experiment with it; the license is unfortunate but not unusable
20:39:12 <ais523> ooh, I just came across fsize/readf
20:39:17 <ais523> there is a TOCTOU security bug there
20:39:26 <ais523> because someone could make the file larger in between the fsize and readf instructions
20:39:43 <ais523> in which case readf would go corrupt some of your memory
20:40:12 <ais523> what do you do if a file contains a NUL byte, btw? AFAICT it's possible to read such files, but not write them
20:41:09 <ais523> finally, I'm a little unclear on how CATCH works; how does the VM search for a CATCH instruction after the HALT instruction runs?
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20:41:45 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Basically, yes. But only if the HALT's exit value isn't 0
20:41:57 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I understand that it does search for one
20:42:05 <ais523> but how does it know where to look?
20:42:16 <ais523> there are a couple of ways I can see this going
20:42:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44135&oldid=42781 * 108.53.252.27 * (+0) /* Brainfuck interpreter */
20:42:40 <hppavilion[1]> I was planning on prototyping the interpreter for the machine code in Python then upgrading it to C later on
20:43:06 <ais523> one is to make it work like exceptions: it jumps back to a CATCH instruction that's already executed, and you have a complimentary UNCATCH instruction to remove a CATCH instruction from the list of executed CATCH instructions (probaly working like a stack, CATCH pushes a HALT handler, UNCATCH pops it)
20:43:32 <ais523> another is much the same but with no UNCATCH, rather a CATCH registers a handler for a particular exit code, and another CATCH with the same code overwrites it
20:43:48 <ais523> and another is to scan the entire program looking for an appropriate CATCH, in which case you've basically got a COME FROM/label pair
20:44:24 <ais523> have you never come across COME FROM before?
20:44:24 <FireFly> shachaf: where is that from?
20:44:26 <hppavilion[1]> I have added estericism to my ISA without even trying xD
20:44:41 <shachaf> FireFly: There was a seminar at Berkeley about it, apparently.
20:45:49 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: In the current design, it knows where to look by making HALT basically behave like a "GLIDE" instruction
20:45:59 <hppavilion[1]> It stops executing code until it reaches a CONTINUE
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20:53:32 <ais523> hmm, it depends on what sort of asm you're going for
20:53:56 <ais523> the thing is, immediate instructions for every arithmetic instruction would be an explosion of opcodes
20:54:11 <ais523> so the normal way this is handled in a machine code is with a prefix that means "immediate", or by setting some bits that mean "immediate"
20:54:32 <ais523> in the case of the asm you're writing, you can do a prefix pretty easily just by doing an immediate load into a register
20:54:48 <ais523> oh, in that case, use some of your high bits for things like "immediate"
20:55:01 <ais523> or "indirect memory access" (that's one you're missing, I think, and have no way to replicate)
20:56:01 <ais523> or "16-bit 16-bit 16-bit 16-bit 16-bit indirect plus the same address plus zero"
20:58:18 <ais523> genuine data access mode output by gcc
20:58:51 <ais523> the encoding of the entire command 66 66 66 66 66 2e 0f 1f 84 00 00 00 00 00, which is not surprising as it's such a complex access mode
20:59:03 <ais523> this might also give you a clue as to /why/ gcc did that
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21:00:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44136&oldid=44058 * 100.1.142.136 * (+19)
21:01:18 <ais523> (the biggest clue is probably the redundant "16-bit" prefixes)
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21:05:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!SuperPrime]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44137 * 100.1.142.136 * (+119) Created page with "!!SuperPrime is a language that is a low byte prime checker. The only command is An implementation in Pyth >2lPQ"
21:06:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!SuperPrime]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44138&oldid=44137 * 100.1.142.136 * (+21)
21:08:42 <int-e> . o O ( Is somebody testing their esolang generator? )
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21:23:26 <fizzie> Phew. First modernized piece of plottery from the move of old /egostats to the new thing: http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/prog_heat_position/
21:23:38 <fizzie> (Might be pretty broken.)
21:23:47 <fizzie> (But also more functionality than before.)
21:25:55 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, it now has a dependency on cloudflare that it didn't before
21:26:00 <ais523> don't mind, just a little surprised
21:27:36 <ais523> and yet again, margins clearly looks different from anything else
21:29:06 <fizzie> Yeah, I picked d3 from the CDN since I'm still prototyping. Might just host the copy locally.
21:29:25 <fizzie> Clicking the rows switches to a "single tape length across each opponent" view.
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21:30:23 <fizzie> (Added some instructions on the plot page.)
21:31:08 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: I've been modernizing the zemhill visualizations, at http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/prog_heat_position/
21:31:23 <fizzie> Or scratch the plural, since there's still only one.
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21:37:12 <kallisti> anyone know how those checkbox captchas work?
21:37:51 <ais523> kallisti: most random-attack spambots leave checkboxes alone; some check every checkbox or uncheck every checkbox
21:37:59 <ais523> so a good checkbox captcha will work against random attacks
21:38:07 <ais523> obviously it's useless against someone who's attacking your site specifically
21:38:10 <fizzie> Or is this about the reCAPTCHA single-checkbox check?
21:39:05 <fizzie> I think that one officially works based on "signals".
21:39:58 <ais523> fizzie: FR: date the program was added to the hill, on the scores page
21:40:54 <izabera> it's just a meaningless checkbox and they're only serving that kind of captcha to users that are very likely humans
21:40:56 <fizzie> Would that be the last-modified date, or original-add-by-that-name? I guess the former.
21:41:12 <ais523> fizzie: I thought about that too, the former is probably the case
21:41:14 <fizzie> izabera: According to the official explanation, they do use the checkbox click too.
21:41:31 <Taneb> I keep getting captchas that are like "select all the pickup trucks"
21:41:39 <fizzie> Taneb: That's the mobile version, I think.
21:41:55 <Taneb> fizzie, I did get it on an actual computer, I think
21:42:12 <izabera> what's not to like in them?
21:42:25 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: They could add a "I'm not a robot, but I'd like to OCR some text" link.
21:42:25 <ais523> the current batch of OCR CAPTCHAs, I can't solve even as a human
21:42:46 <ais523> I actually suspect that even correct answers are being rejected, with JS off
21:42:47 <izabera> they scanned them all already
21:42:53 <ais523> but yes, they actually ran out of books to scan
21:43:13 <fizzie> I've also heard people complain about the street view house number thing.
21:46:34 <hppavilion[1]> And spambots that are created via those captchas go fucking berserk on that website
21:46:48 <izabera> isn't that the whole reason they invented captchas?
21:48:17 <izabera> http://musicmachinery.com/2009/04/27/moot-wins-time-inc-loses/
21:48:50 <izabera> already been done and of course it's stupid because humans are expensive
21:49:13 <hppavilion[1]> Virgolang: Instead of BetaScript, why not just create a Python API?
21:50:37 <Virgolang> each event has 1 field, 1 register and 1 running function.
21:51:04 <hppavilion[1]> Make sure it gets everything from a plugins folder
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21:53:36 <FireFly> Eastish Europe then, I presume
21:55:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DinoD123 * New user account
22:02:12 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I think you should include the document of how the instructions encoding is working?
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22:16:31 <Taneb> Achievement unlocked: be in a supermarket as it closes
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22:29:09 <coppro> Taneb: as in, you were kicked out, or they didn't notice you?
22:29:27 <Taneb> coppro, they were quite friendly
22:29:28 <myname> computer science courses that don't exist, but should: http://prog21.dadgum.com/210.html
22:29:38 <Taneb> coppro, I bought my milk, left, and they closed the door behind me
22:30:11 <oerjan> bah that happens to me regularly. except without the milk.
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22:30:41 <Taneb> Got there at 22:58, left at 23:01
22:30:53 <oerjan> hey same opening hours too
22:32:56 <oerjan> in other news, the strange alarm i complained about yesterday came from my own apartment's stove top tdh except i could have figured it out _before_ i'd slept uneasily for 3 hours.
22:33:29 * oerjan then got up and got the idea of testing with the circuit breakers
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22:39:46 <coppro> I have officially contributed to Idris
22:42:36 <coppro> I made a function into an instance of Uninhabited
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22:48:30 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: You should describe how is instruction encodings for your instruction set?
22:50:30 -!- Virgolang has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:50:30 <shachaf> 00:48 <@DarwinElf> anyone become a monad yet?
22:53:06 <Taneb> shachaf, I am a monad
22:53:12 <Taneb> I travel around with no permanent home
22:53:22 <zzo38> That is strange question.
22:53:53 <Taneb> Or is that a nomad?
22:54:21 <zzo38> I think that is nomad? I don't know
22:54:36 <zzo38> I have the dictionary I can look in dictioary.
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22:56:06 <zzo38> Nomad is a person who choose to roam, member of people without a fixed location, wandering from place to place
22:56:40 <Taneb> Yes that was the joke I was making
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22:59:35 <shachaf> Taneb: I used to think "frankly" meant "Franklin" tdnh
23:02:20 <oerjan> franklin, my dear, i don't give a damn
23:02:31 <shachaf> oerjan: it was from that phrase exactly
23:02:38 <shachaf> oerjan: there was this garfield comic strip
23:02:48 <shachaf> what's-his-name was looking at the mirror and saying that
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23:02:56 <oerjan> do you know where that phrase is from twh
23:03:03 <shachaf> and garfield said that mustaches make people think they're people they think they're not
23:03:21 <shachaf> so i thought what's-his-name thought he was franklin
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23:04:32 <shachaf> anyway apparently it's from a film called gone with the wind which i haven't seen but i think i've looked it up before
23:05:16 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Added date-tracking and output in the JSON report (7-line patch), but now I can't recall how to run this locally to test it. Will try to get to it later.
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23:06:07 * oerjan doesn't remember seeing it either, but the quote is too famous
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23:06:55 <Taneb> And here was me thinking it was from one of the earlier Carry On films
23:10:47 <oerjan> hm not sure i've heard of those before
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23:12:19 <Taneb> oerjan, British films, bawdy is the appropriate adjective
23:12:47 * oerjan now looks up "bawdy" just to be sure
23:13:07 <oerjan> pretty much what i thought
23:17:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44139&oldid=44134 * Hppavilion1 * (-1) /* What is the current process? */ Combined a link into a word
23:18:16 <izabera> i have a job interview on wednesday
23:18:26 <izabera> can you help me to prepare for it?
23:18:39 <izabera> maybe suggest some coding problem to solve
23:22:21 <Taneb> Where is your job interview, izabera ?
23:23:30 <Taneb> I don't think I could ever work in London
23:23:40 <Taneb> Cities that big kind of scare me, you know?
23:23:50 <Taneb> York's the biggest place I've lived since I was 4
23:24:11 <Taneb> There's just, like, so much
23:24:16 <Jafet> Isn't London in the same landmass as York?
23:24:26 <Taneb> Jafet, yes, that is the case
23:24:33 <Taneb> However they are a few hundred miles apart
23:25:33 <Taneb> And London has about 130 times as many people as York I think
23:28:04 <oerjan> did you know London was the second city in the world to ever grow beyond 1 million inhabitants hth
23:30:57 <oerjan> it rose, then fell again, a thousand years before the rest
23:31:54 <oerjan> that greatly increases the chance i am not spreading nonsense
23:32:10 <Taneb> izabera, the roman empire was a ridiculous over-centralized crazy thing that probably didn't make much sense to exist
23:32:20 <oerjan> ah there's the wikipedia list
23:32:22 <izabera> how much do we know about delhi or beijing in those years?
23:32:33 <Taneb> A surprising amount, I believe
23:32:34 <oerjan> well beijing wasn't even _founded_
23:32:38 <Taneb> I mean, not me personally
23:32:55 <Taneb> I know like nothing about non-European history really
23:32:57 <izabera> i dunno shit about geography
23:33:05 <izabera> not to mention historic geography
23:33:19 <oerjan> well maybe not entirely new, but it was only in relatively modern times it became the capital
23:34:09 <Taneb> Shanghai apparently has a similar story
23:34:46 <Taneb> London was the centre of the industrial revolution, which I believe was a Big Thing
23:34:59 <Taneb> And really was what let large cities exist
23:35:23 <Taneb> Like, in an economically sustainable manner
23:35:30 <oerjan> ok i'll have to say that by this wikipedia list this is rather disputed
23:37:02 <oerjan> ok not very supported at all. _every_ source listed has beijing before london
23:37:14 <shachaf> In 1980 Shenzhen had a population of ~30,000.
23:37:55 <oerjan> shenzhen did get some really good help
23:38:12 <oerjan> special economic area, or something
23:38:32 <shachaf> i read about it in a capitalism propaganda book
23:39:18 <shachaf> currently on an airplane, will lose connection in a few minutes
23:46:24 <oerjan> at least the sources agree that london was the first city above 2 million (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities_throughout_history)
23:46:39 <hppavilion[1]> I want to build a computer modeled after an Oracle Machine
23:47:18 <oren_> I want a computer modeled after the oracle of delphi as depicted in the movie 300
23:47:26 <oerjan> make a quantum computer and you'll have a BQP oracle hth
23:48:27 <oerjan> also, new york first above 10 and tokyo first above 20
23:49:10 <oerjan> but those are all relatively modern, of course
23:49:30 <oren_> what is the city with highest population denisty
23:50:18 <oerjan> constantinople was no. 1 in between there without reaching a million
23:51:09 <oren_> actually,better question: of all square kilometres of the earth's surface, which square contains the most humans
23:52:09 <myname> if dbpedia were bigger ...
23:52:36 <oerjan> oren_: wikipedia has a population density list for capitals only https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_capitals_by_population
23:53:01 <oerjan> oh wait that's a redirect
23:53:08 <izabera> which square is the most deadly?
23:53:51 <oerjan> they made it a redirect and the target page doesn't contain the information
23:53:59 <izabera> the score of each square is the amount of people that died there since 2000 b.c.
23:59:09 <oerjan> this is the last version of the page with actual density https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_national_capitals_by_population_density&oldid=436304527
23:59:56 <oerjan> dhaka on top with 45508 / km^2