00:02:21 That's still like 20 square metres for everyone. 00:02:36 Ugh 00:02:42 People don't deserve /space/ 00:02:46 Anyway my fear of big cities is less about their density and more about the idea that you can start walking not see countryside for ages 00:03:09 Even here in York I live like 10 minutes away from some form of farm 00:03:15 I need to test something. Stand by for a single message consisting entirely of 'w's 00:03:24 wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww 00:03:25 wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww 00:03:33 Interesting 00:03:39 wuh 00:03:45 hppavilion[1]: FAIL 00:03:49 it was split into two messages 00:03:59 good 00:04:01 Huh? 00:04:02 Taneb: My temporary apartment was within sight of the Vauxhall City Farm. 00:04:07 What's a CTCP VERSION? 00:04:08 -!- bb010g has joined. 00:04:19 hppavilion[1]: it asks you what your irc client is 00:04:22 Ah 00:04:27 fizzie, that hardly counts 00:04:31 Could'a just asked 00:04:35 Taneb: They say it's countryside. 00:04:38 Taneb: "Vauxhall City Farm is a little piece of the countryside in central London." 00:04:52 i use irssi, which has a script you can enable for splitting. beats getting lines cut off. 00:04:58 Taneb: You get "all the sights, sounds and smells of rural life". 00:05:45 Are there real farms inside M25? 00:06:36 I think there are. 00:07:39 Taneb: York would be the fifth biggest city in Finland by population, if it were in Finland. 00:07:53 (And counting #1, #2 and #4 separately is a lie.) 00:08:05 fizzie, I can name maybe 2 cities in Finland 00:08:12 Which I think is more than most people I know 00:09:17 fizzie: The UK notion of "countryside" must be very different from the US notion. :) 00:09:48 I don't really know the UK notion, but I know there's multiple FI notions depending on who you ask. 00:10:31 It would take about 12 hours I think to cross London from the M25 to the M25 through the centre 00:10:39 Could'a just asked <-- oh come on, i'm a nerd, i don't speak to people if i can ask a machine instead (cue for someone pasting counterexample) 00:10:40 For York and the A64, it'd take about 2 00:10:57 Ah, of course 00:11:08 I fungot that we're all nerds here xD 00:11:08 hppavilion[1]: implement a solution to the problem from a much fnord style of channel for a while 00:12:03 Melbourne I find terrifying and I have lived there 00:12:45 -!- MDude has joined. 00:13:20 For the greater Helsinki area, it would take about 3 and a half hours for "Ring I", and 8 hours for "Ring III", although they're all just semicircles thanks to the coast. 00:13:27 (There is no Ring II.) 00:13:55 Well, there's a little bit of it, but it's mostly just a straight segment. 00:14:08 fizzie: i assume Helsinki and Espoo are two of the three, but which is the last one? 00:14:19 oerjan: Vantaa, which is #4. 00:15:06 (See: the former Helsinki-Vantaa airport, nowadays only Helsinki Airport, because it's just confusing to mention Vantaa.) 00:16:09 If the Wikipedia infobox title is truthful, it still has both cities in the Finnish and Swedish names, and they only dropped it from the English one. 00:16:30 The closest civilian airport to York is Leeds-Bradford 00:17:42 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:18:00 Taneb: York would be the third largest city by population in norway, displacing trondheim 00:18:13 I like the local place names here, they sound much fancier than ours. 00:18:20 This doesn't exactly make it big! 00:18:24 "Bognor Regis", especially. 00:18:25 fizzie, where are you? 00:18:27 Ah 00:18:29 In London. 00:18:44 But I hear Bognor Regis as a final train destination at Victoria Station quite often. 00:19:04 You're like a single train ride from York! 00:19:57 We're going to Blackpool and Liverpool soonishly to meet with my wife's mother. That's up there about a Yorkish distance away, although with a slightly different direction. 00:20:24 That is also a single train ride from York 00:21:33 bognor regis sounds like a harry potter spell 00:22:18 There's also a place that I hear as Hexham in the announcements, but which probably isn't Hexham. 00:22:27 No, it wouldn't be 00:22:31 Wrexham, maybe? 00:22:46 (you can get to Hexham from Carlisle, Newcaste, Glasgow, and I think Middlesborough) 00:23:11 Middlesborough sounds very average 00:23:29 I'm trying to find a list of trains from Victoria, but the live departure boards aren't very useful at this time of day. 00:23:37 FireFly, it's called that because it was founded at the midpoint between two monastaries 00:23:47 Ah, makes sense 00:24:37 Oh, Wikipedia. 00:25:03 "Middlesbrough Priory was a priory in Middlesbrough" 00:25:17 There's Epsom, maybe I could be mishearing that in the noisy hall. 00:25:19 That is pretty much all the article on Middlesbrough priory says 00:25:27 Could be 00:25:45 There's also a train to Crystal Palace, which is another impressive-sounding name. 00:26:44 And to Dorking, which I'd assume people make bad jokes about. 00:27:09 Crystal Palace was a building built for a World's Fair, iirc 00:27:19 It burnt down at some point, something is telling me 1913 00:27:32 And to Reading, with its unexpected pronunciation, from Clapham Junction. 00:27:34 1936, I had the wrong world war 00:27:41 I assume that Middlesex is home to people of average gender. 00:28:00 You would be correct 00:32:06 I think I will go to bed now 00:32:44 Goodnight 00:34:12 Sounds like a good idea. 00:35:46 -!- Bjarne_ has joined. 00:35:53 Hello 00:36:17 `relcome Bjarne_ 00:36:22 ​Bjarne_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 00:37:42 So, does anything actually happen in here? 00:38:01 Sporadically. 00:38:15 Ah 00:38:24 And I guess mostly off-topic things? 00:38:36 lol 00:38:56 you actually joined just as one of the main talkers went to bed 00:39:03 I'd still claim the odds of esolangery happening are above the natural background levels. 00:39:09 Oh, well that's kinda funny. 00:39:30 I enjoy esolangery, occasionally. 00:39:40 Haven't built a language in a while though. 00:41:06 If- I remember, the last language I built was something stack-based. 00:41:42 As for "does anything actually happen", we do have hard data on that: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/ 00:42:35 Hmm, I see that the peak of activity was in early 2012. 00:43:06 Wow, so this place has been around since 2003? 00:43:13 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 00:43:38 Late 2002, yes. 00:43:46 Nice 00:44:17 01:44 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- Registered : Jan 03 01:30:22 2003 (12y 36w 2d ago) 00:44:56 Hmm. Do @ ping notifications work here? 00:45:10 I come from a world of Stack Exchange chat, so that's what I'm used to. 00:45:55 Normally people say "target: Foo." if they're talking to someone who's currently online, or use lambdabot's "@tell target Something." feature if they're not. 00:46:18 Ah, thanks. 00:46:24 (Most clients highlight the first form, and the second one will cause lambdabot to bother them later.) 00:46:56 Thanks. I'm very new to IRC 00:48:27 in fact lambdabot is a main reason for _not_ using @nick style here 00:48:40 @Bjarne_ <-- demonstration 00:48:40 Unknown command, try @list 00:48:52 @ ping 00:49:00 as defense, i think lambdabot is older than both SO and twitter 00:49:02 @ping 00:49:02 pong 00:49:14 oerjan: Combined? 00:49:21 um... 00:49:28 oh hey, there's a new person! 00:49:36 i'll have to look it up but lambdabot was 10 years just the other week 00:50:08 Nice 00:50:43 oerjan: Wikipedia's "Comparison of Internet Relay Chat bots" (a) doesn't contain fungot, but (b) lists "?" as lambdabot's "First public release - date". 00:50:43 fizzie: so i guess 00:50:56 fungot: So you guess you should go and edit the page? 00:50:56 fizzie: it runs through all of them? with two ports on the mainboard? :s 00:51:01 I probably shouldn't get too used to using 3 laptops at once 00:51:10 oh not combined. and twitter is older than i thought, but still not quite as old as lambdabot. 00:51:19 fizzie: wouldn't fungot editing the page violate WP:NPOV? 00:51:20 FireFly: i love when " faq" doesn't mean " cleaner", somehow, in what system, and in perl do something like 00:51:24 (and also be a terrible idea in general) 00:51:37 ^style wp 00:51:37 Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages) 00:51:43 fungot: Talk Wikipedia to me. 00:51:43 fizzie: forbidding polish language is more appropriate, or at least present a scientifically evident reason for this is the same as ' ' cavalrymen" were frequently fnord in ancient wars. the timeline had just grown too long, so it fnord past the network censors. in popular use, ", because it isn't neutral because of the passage of time. 00:52:01 FireFly: Yeah, seems that it isn't neutral. 00:52:07 But we could still forbid Polish. 00:52:13 fizzie: well i'm going by lambdabot's registration date 00:52:14 fungot wp seems heavy on fnord. 00:52:14 Jafet: ok, i can assure you that all the language material should be somewhere. what do the rest of them are fnord/ fte, or larger than fnord fnord ( user fnord) 20:32, 29 december 2007 ( utc) 00:52:16 Seems legit. 00:52:29 Jafet: Bad data preprocessing, mostly. 00:52:55 Well, and maybe bad training parameters too, but things like signatures really should've been cleaned up. 00:53:14 Sometimes it's better to look things up in an appropriate book on openlibrary 00:53:28 than on wikipedia 00:54:10 [wiki] [[!!SuperPrime]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44140&oldid=44138 * SuperJedi224 * (+102) 00:55:39 Huh? 00:55:42 What's that? 00:56:12 nvm 00:56:32 hackego anounces whenver someone changes the wiki 00:56:56 Now that's really helpful. 00:57:01 fizzie: i think forbidding polish language might be historically insensitive hth 00:58:30 Bye bye 00:58:32 -!- Bjarne_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 00:59:26 oerjan: Maybe they could get someone else's language as compensation. 01:02:02 ^def 01:02:02 hai 01:02:08 now that's cute 01:02:30 fizzie: i think the last time, they got either german or russian 01:02:42 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:02:43 Huh. (re ^def) 01:02:56 saw it in the logs 01:03:05 Oh, yeah, the builtins are triggered only by the command name and a space. 01:03:16 oh 01:03:19 Well, those of them that take an argument. 01:03:21 ^show def 01:03:21 (hai)S 01:03:24 ic 01:03:41 s/take/can take/ 01:04:37 You could do the same for ^str, ^bf, ^ul. 01:05:55 And some owner-only commands, like ^raw, ^code -- those would become user-defined commands that you can only execute without input, because otherwise they'd trigger the builtin, which would just ignore it. 01:09:34 ^def bf (^bf -- evaluates brainfuck)S 01:09:34 Usage: ^def 01:09:40 ^def bf bf (^bf -- evaluates brainfuck)S 01:09:40 Defined. 01:09:43 ^bf 01:09:49 Hm. 01:09:53 oh wait 01:10:02 ^def bf ul (^bf -- evaluates brainfuck)S 01:10:02 Defined. 01:10:05 ^bf 01:10:06 ^bf -- evaluates brainfuck 01:10:09 Handy 01:15:07 -!- ^v has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:15:15 ^ul 01:15:17 ^def ul ul (^ul -- evaluates Underload) 01:15:17 Defined. 01:15:19 ^ul 01:15:30 ^def ul ul (^ul -- evaluates Underload)S 01:15:30 Defined. 01:15:33 ^ul 01:15:33 ^ul -- evaluates Underload 01:16:25 I think that may have displaced the brainfuck ul interp, but you couldn't use it anyway, and maybe it was already lost. 01:16:47 don't interfer with other bots <-- it wasn't eir fault this time, athenabot is just stupid 01:16:58 And anyway even when you could use it the time limits hardly let you do anything with it. 01:17:00 how so? 01:17:17 ^save 01:17:17 OK. 01:18:14 myname: it reacts to _any_ url, without any prefix. 01:18:28 i kicked it once before 01:18:32 that is indeed pretty stupid 01:19:15 -!- bender has joined. 01:20:00 ^show 01:20:00 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf 01:20:23 ^rot13 fungot 01:20:23 shatbg 01:20:30 hm 01:20:33 mine's better hth 01:20:35 still not run out of room 01:20:49 did I remember to add my bf interpreter to the wiki? 01:21:03 i don't remember whether you did 01:21:36 oerjan: Even unusual ones like ? 01:21:38 (the one that works by fucking with the stack in an entirely illegel way) 01:21:55 oerjan: so when does belkar show up to heroically and uncharacteristically sacrifice himself 01:21:56 pikhq: ok the "any" was more for position in the line 01:22:26 shachaf: erm excuse me i haven't read oots yet since i haven't got to that part in the logs my being backlogged keeps escalating 01:22:32 pikhq: that uri scheme irks me hth 01:23:04 I'm hoping possessed Durkon is going down soon 01:23:09 shachaf: Maybe, but it's quite valid. If not quite standard because there isn't a registered one for IRC-over-SSL, just for plain IRC. 01:23:37 http://www.orenwatson.be/bfim.htm 01:23:37 pikhq: it was just a pun ok 01:24:01 urn:pun-opinion:grumble%20grumble 01:24:30 you missed some fun puns in channels you aren't in hth 01:30:25 Also, grumble it's the weekend, how food. 01:31:44 hm was that summoned weasel a thing, it somehow rings a bell 01:32:07 He did have that bag o' tricks way back 01:32:07 bag of tricks hth 01:32:53 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0144.html 01:33:42 also e.g. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html 01:33:56 [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44141&oldid=43113 * Orenwatson * (+247) Added mine to list. 01:38:25 that was it 01:42:58 kallisti: hi new person 01:44:27 I think they've been around a while, at least the nick looks familiar 01:45:05 i'm sorry, but they clearly said in the logs that they're new hth 01:45:42 and that means it has to be true, or you could have your cake and eat it too 01:45:43 i am new 01:45:49 awwh 01:46:45 hi other new person 01:48:36 Oh jeeze, the Indian place I found near here that I quite like has a lunch buffet. 01:48:41 This is dangerous knowledge. 01:48:54 Which place? 01:48:59 Great India Cuisine. 01:49:06 *Indian 01:49:21 The name's not much, but so far I've been quite pleased. 01:49:49 Are you kidding? The name's great! 01:50:00 :) 01:50:12 Okay, well, my impression is the name is accurate, so. 01:50:55 pikhq: Did you have any mules today? 01:50:57 -!- MDude has joined. 01:50:58 No. 01:51:14 I heard there was a thing. 01:51:25 Maybe there was, but I missed it. 01:51:51 I had a Finnish mule. 02:06:15 -!- mihow has joined. 02:19:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:21:58 Interesting. 02:23:02 Jeff Atwood aka CodingHorror got fed up with the people on theDailyWtf criticizing and filing bugs to his forum software, discourse. 02:23:44 He proceeded to ban everyone from TheDailyWtf from posting on the Meta.d discourse forum 02:24:20 so now TheDailyWtf is deciding what forum doftwre to migrate to 02:25:43 I had no idea there were so many people who take insults to their code personally 02:25:58 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:27:01 https://what.thedailywtf.com/t/how-can-this-be-so-wrong/51117 <-- record of the drama 02:37:30 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 02:48:27 -!- JesseH has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:51:13 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:53:14 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:04:18 -!- Thisbe has joined. 03:09:47 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Sleep). 03:29:04 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 03:35:06 -!- Thisbe has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:44:00 -!- JesseH has joined. 03:47:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 04:05:03 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 04:05:04 -!- Frooxius has joined. 04:05:45 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 04:05:45 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 04:06:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:11:55 The other player have filled up their character sheets now, one aasimar and one drow; the player of the drow character wrote "Classified" as the alignment 04:37:50 -!- JesseH has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:43:08 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:45:34 I don't like any of those URI schemes for IRC though 04:46:36 It should be or whatever host/port/channel/etc; the channel name is not a fragment identifier and you may want to point to stuff other than channels too 04:47:15 zzo38: irc://irc.freenode.net:6666/esoteric is valid, as is irc://irc.freenode.net:6666/zzo38,isnick 04:48:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:49:21 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 04:50:14 The first one doesn't specify the channel prefix either, and there are other problems. Also some program seem to use it inconsistently; I have seen some places where the scheme is used that have the # and some that don't 04:51:24 (I don't like that syntax for nicknames either) 04:52:00 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:52:30 -!- Frooxius has joined. 04:57:54 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 04:58:21 in freenode / can be part of a channel's name 04:58:42 Yes, you should percent-encode it then, in my opinion, if making up the URI. 04:58:52 (Percentage signs also need to be percent-encoded) 04:59:28 -!- Frooxius has joined. 04:59:32 I believe it's also valid to percent encode it. 04:59:47 Percent encoding is a part of the generic URI syntax, at least. 05:00:25 zzo38: The scheme specifies that if you don't specify a channel prefix you assume #. 05:00:37 Otherwise, I agree, the syntax does use URI pretty poorly. 05:01:03 irc://irc.freenode.net/channel/%23esoteric feels more... correct. 05:01:10 Yes I agree 05:02:14 It should be irc://[username[:password]@][host[:port]]/[path][?parameter][#part] like normal URI should be 05:02:21 do you want/need the /channel part? 05:02:31 Yes you should 05:02:44 To distinguish between the server and an individual user on the server. 05:02:47 (I used /join/ instead of /channel/ but that's another way) 05:02:58 pikhq: Yes, or help files or other stuff 05:03:18 irc://irc.freenode.net/nick/zzo38?msg=Oh%20hai or some such 05:03:45 starting with %23 would be enough to distinguish a chan from a user 05:04:45 izabera: Yes, if it started with the encoded # or & or + or ! that means a channel and otherwise a nickname is one way, but it doesn't help in case you want to refer to help file and so on as well, I believe 05:05:29 Arguably in the protocol you could have a prefixless channel. 05:05:36 The prefixes are just a convention. 05:05:48 Though that'd collide with users. 05:06:09 (as one PRIVMSGs both channels and users) 05:07:42 help file? 05:08:25 There are help files on the server too, for many commands as well as to list what mode flags it accepts 05:08:57 (For example HELP UMODE lists the possible modes you can set on yourself) 05:57:01 -!- sc00fy has joined. 06:06:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:21:00 What level(s) and/or other suggestion/complaints to make this spell? http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/spell/magic_ink 06:22:30 -!- Walpurgisnacht has joined. 06:23:10 squaring for lambda is just ^ right or did it change 06:24:02 Can you please be more specific? 06:26:13 ^2 06:26:16 eh 06:26:27 > 2^3/4+1 06:26:30 3.0 06:26:36 thanks m8 06:28:39 > {34,67,80}/7^(3)+8 06:28:40 :1:1: parse error on input ‘{’ 06:29:15 I doubted it could to the calculator brackets 06:29:17 uwu 06:29:44 It is Haskell; for lists you need square brackets, although I don't think you can divide a list by a number anyways. 06:30:12 Yeah I think so 06:30:41 > fmap (\x -> x/7^(3)+8) [34,67,80] 06:30:43 [8.099125364431487,8.19533527696793,8.2332361516035] 06:30:52 Nah 06:31:17 > [34,67,80]/7^(3)+8 06:31:19 No instance for (Show t0) 06:31:19 arising from a use of ‘show_M544953426060485496931545’ 06:31:19 The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous 06:31:59 > [34,67,80]/7^3+8 06:32:00 No instance for (Show t0) 06:32:00 arising from a use of ‘show_M207693433857803641131569’ 06:32:00 The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous 06:32:11 Ill try that with something later 06:32:26 That's wrong; you need to use fmap or other stuff like that. 06:32:39 Yeah 06:32:54 What answer are you expecting? 06:33:29 [ 67 , 0 ] 8 06:33:30 Walpurgisnacht: 67 8 06:35:34 Thanks j-bot 06:36:10 Is that what you want it to do? 06:37:09 Yeah 06:37:35 Do you know Haskell programming? 06:38:01 I wasn't doing haskell 06:38:25 Lambdabot is doing Haskell though 06:39:13 * Walpurgisnacht half heartedly shakes fist at lambdabot 06:39:18 Yeah I see now 06:39:40 I was just seperating some stacks and I needed the precise number close to [ 67 , 0 ] 8 but I didn't know if I was getting it right 06:40:02 God damnit I closed my window 06:44:01 Mmm goodnight 06:44:05 -!- Walpurgisnacht has quit (Quit: Fuck me). 07:02:21 I found what I believe to be a judge's mistake in a 1999 FRC round 07:02:55 frc? 07:03:20 Later: 07:03:20 I just found a horrible problem with this rule. If Frconium is Tier 16, and you mix it with an Tier 1 element in extreme proporions, you should get (by 126:11) the @ version of an element on Tier 15. But according to this rule there is no Tier 15! Unless or until someone points out a flaw in this reasoning, I will have to change my Judgement on this to INVALID. 07:04:09 Flaw in that reasoning: Tier 1 elements, when mixed in extreme proportion, do NOT result in @ versions of elements, as noted in the validity notes for 11 07:04:12 http://www.sir-toby.com/nomic-archives/frc/round126.txt 07:04:50 oh nomic ok 07:20:13 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:42:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 07:46:05 -!- kallisti_ has joined. 07:47:24 -!- x10A94 has joined. 07:49:01 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:12:51 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 08:40:26 -!- bender has quit (Disconnected by services). 08:40:45 -!- bender|_ has joined. 08:41:55 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 08:44:21 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:44:34 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 08:47:37 [wiki] [[Fission]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44142&oldid=43098 * 73.21.237.245 * (+63) Added categories 08:48:20 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 08:57:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: lunch). 08:57:07 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:11:27 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:15:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:22:55 hmm, I'm reading something explaining the usage of an option/maybe type 09:23:25 and gives as an example a function that divides two numbers, except it returns the "no value" option if the divisor is 0 09:23:40 and immediately thought "but what if someone does INT_MIN / -1?" 09:28:20 -!- zadock has joined. 09:30:51 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 09:34:02 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:39:50 -!- TieSoul has joined. 09:51:25 [wiki] [[Fish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44143&oldid=44135 * 109.240.117.169 * (+0) Undo revision 44135 by [[Special:Contributions/108.53.252.27|108.53.252.27]] ([[User talk:108.53.252.27|talk]]) 10:09:57 > 0.8 * 73 10:09:59 58.400000000000006 10:18:31 @botsnack 10:18:31 :) 10:18:48 @quote 10:18:48 ackbar says: it's a trap! 10:22:26 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 10:23:51 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:29:44 that value for 0.8*73 looks suspect to me 10:30:12 I wonder how easy it is to get binary floating point calculations to produce exact results in decimal 10:30:24 oren_: ah, I see you've added more characters 10:30:24 I guess you track error, and then if there's a short decimal representation within your error radius, you use that 10:48:30 -!- bender|_ has quit (Quit: Ping Pong Fuckout). 10:49:40 -!- sc00fy has joined. 10:49:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 10:51:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:15:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:49:04 -!- bender|_ has joined. 11:50:04 -!- bender|_ has changed nick to bender|. 11:50:14 -!- bender| has quit (Changing host). 11:50:14 -!- bender| has joined. 11:50:51 -!- bender| has changed nick to bender. 11:51:36 -!- Virgolang has joined. 11:54:16 -!- Virgolang_ has joined. 11:56:27 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 11:57:48 -!- Virgolang has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:58:01 -!- Virgolang_ has changed nick to Virgolang. 11:58:03 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:58:06 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 11:58:10 -!- Virgolang has quit (Changing host). 11:58:10 -!- Virgolang has joined. 12:37:39 [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44144&oldid=42643 * SuperJedi224 * (+251) 12:43:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:54:47 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:00:28 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 13:02:14 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:02:22 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 13:06:21 -!- hjulle has joined. 13:07:31 -!- rodgort has joined. 13:08:04 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:31:09 -!- bender has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:49:45 -!- Virgolang_ has joined. 13:52:01 -!- Virgolang__ has joined. 13:52:45 -!- Virgolang has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:54:46 -!- Virgolang__ has changed nick to Virgolang. 13:54:49 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 13:55:01 -!- Virgolang has quit (Changing host). 13:55:02 -!- Virgolang has joined. 13:55:03 -!- Virgolang_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 13:58:54 [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44145&oldid=44136 * SuperJedi224 * (-19) 13:59:13 [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44146&oldid=43369 * SuperJedi224 * (+19) 14:02:07 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:07:02 -!- Frooxius has joined. 14:25:51 -!- Virgolang_ has joined. 14:26:27 [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44147&oldid=44036 * Timwi * (+447) Parsons Green 14:27:16 [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44148&oldid=44147 * Timwi * (+27) formatting 14:28:30 -!- Virgolang has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:30:16 -!- Virgolang_ has changed nick to Virgolang. 14:30:28 -!- Virgolang has quit (Changing host). 14:30:28 -!- Virgolang has joined. 14:31:43 [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44149&oldid=44148 * Timwi * (+113) move the single-operand instructions down so they’re not intermingled with the binary operators 14:35:40 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 14:35:50 [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44150&oldid=44149 * Timwi * (+142) /* Execution */ Caveat 14:36:40 [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44151&oldid=44150 * Timwi * (+0) sp. Also, I changed the semantics of the start of the program in a previous edit and sneakily marked it as minor! Sorry! 14:40:27 -!- Frooxius has joined. 14:42:53 [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44152&oldid=44151 * Timwi * (+12) mildly important 14:44:52 [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44153&oldid=44152 * Timwi * (+59) clarify what “return” means 14:46:42 * tswett appends "1!" to his password in order to make it fulfill the requirements. 14:47:25 heh 14:48:12 that reminds me of those Password Policies which required users to change their password every couple of weeks 14:48:51 i just put a counter on the end of my password which i incremented every time 14:58:24 hi 14:58:58 Use a base 36 counter 14:59:43 @tell b_jonas yes I added devanagari and some arabic and more cyrillic 14:59:43 Consider it noted. 15:00:20 right now i;m working on armenian 15:02:48 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 15:21:20 When defining stuff that uses division I have also considered INT_MIN / -1 15:22:10 For example, QUACKVM specifies undefined behaviour in that case (also division by zero is not undefined; it will be reported to the program). 15:24:34 if we define negation as flipping the bits then adding one, the answer to -INT_MIN is INT_MIN. 15:25:30 for 4-bit ints: ~1000 = 0111 0111+1 = 1000 15:26:43 a well deisgned program should probably avoid numbers near the edges of the representable range though 15:31:41 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:31:46 -!- JesseH has joined. 15:37:39 [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44154&oldid=44153 * Timwi * (-8) /* Execution */ 15:38:10 i have sometimes considered using ones-complement instead 15:41:16 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 15:50:50 > [minBound, -minBound] :: [Int] 15:50:52 [-9223372036854775808,-9223372036854775808] 15:51:02 oren_: checks out 16:00:16 > minBound / -1 :: Int 16:00:19 Precedence parsing error 16:00:19 cannot mix ‘/’ [infixl 7] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same infi... 16:00:32 > minBound / (-1) :: Int 16:00:34 No instance for (Fractional Int) arising from a use of ‘/’ 16:00:34 In the expression: minBound / (- 1) :: Int 16:00:58 > div minBound (-1) :: Int 16:01:00 *Exception: arithmetic overflow 16:02:51 div probably checks for this case and errors out without dividing ... I wonder if you can use unboxed ints in lambdabot 16:06:06 -!- Frooxius has joined. 16:07:12 don't think so 16:07:20 or wait hm 16:08:08 > if True then error "test" else 1# 16:08:09 Couldn't match kind ‘*’ with ‘#’ 16:08:09 When matching types 16:08:09 a0 :: * 16:08:42 hm right that won't print 16:08:51 # is a kind? 16:08:52 :t I# 16:08:53 Not in scope: data constructor ‘I#’ 16:08:53 Perhaps you meant ‘In’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted) 16:09:01 :t 1# 16:09:02 GHC.Prim.Int# 16:09:05 -!- aloril has joined. 16:09:39 you can make unboxed literals, but it's hard to use them for anything because none of the functions are imported 16:10:12 > let x 1# = 1 in x 1# 16:10:14 1 16:10:20 looks like you can also pattern match them? 16:10:22 > let x 1# = 1 in x 2# 16:10:24 *Exception: :3:5-12: Non-exhaustive patterns in function x 16:10:26 yep 16:10:27 well right 16:10:38 ais523: # is the kind of unboxed values, yes 16:11:34 @src Int 16:11:34 data Int = I# Int# 16:11:50 I#? 16:12:09 if I# were imported (from GHC.Exts or the like), it would be easier 16:12:12 Does that box any unboxed type or some such? 16:12:29 no, just Int, it's the data constructor for Ints 16:12:37 @src Integer 16:12:38 data Integer = S# Int# 16:12:38 | J# Int# ByteArray# 16:12:52 wtf 16:13:00 of course @src is unreliable but it has these examples 16:13:15 i think that Integer definition may be out of date. 16:13:47 @hoogle Integer 16:13:49 Prelude data Integer :: * 16:13:49 Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.VertexSpec data IntegerHandling 16:13:49 Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax IntegerL :: Integer -> Lit 16:14:00 hmm, I take it a ByteArray# doesn't know its own length? 16:14:18 not sure 16:14:19 and thus a Haskell Integer can't store a value that's more than INT#_MAX bytes long 16:14:50 (on a 32-bit system, I believe it's theoretically possible to have enough memory to be able to store such a value in theory) 16:14:52 from GHCi: 16:14:54 data Integer = integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.S# !Int# | integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.Jp# {-# UNPACK #-}integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.BigNat 16:14:57 | integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.Jn# {-# UNPACK #-}integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.BigNat 16:15:05 they split it according to sign now 16:15:17 and it's in a hidden module thus the noise 16:15:47 $ echo '2:*:*:*:*:*:2/*:.01-/' > tmp.bef; cfunge tmp.bef 16:15:47 Floating point exception 16:15:50 And there is the "BigNat" type; what is their definition? 16:15:54 Fortunately, I don't think you can get fungot to do that. 16:15:54 fizzie: i deleted the early childhood and marriage because latuff himself stated that neither of those counties allow any sort of evidence? what about the territories? fnord fnord george clark ( fnord english history: a fnord, which 16:16:41 Also, for some reason, "cfunge <(echo ...)" doesn't work -- it goes to an infinite 100% CPU-wasting loop somewhere. 16:17:21 (The extra :. was just for debugging.) 16:18:11 Maybe it's a feature to heat up the room during cold winter days 16:19:14 how often is division actually used? 16:19:23 even more so than subtraction, it's hard to implement in esolangs that don't have integers 16:19:33 I guess I should add it to underlambda's standard library 16:19:51 anyone know a good algo for dividing chuch numerals? bonus if it does something well-defined on functions that aren't church numerals 16:20:18 data BigNat = BN# ByteArray# 16:20:21 zzo38: ^ 16:20:39 Ah, OK 16:20:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:21:22 ais523: actually ByteArray# isn't a single contiguous memory array 16:21:37 oerjan: I was assuming tha the Int# was the length 16:22:40 i think it may have been number of "limbs", now it's not there any more 16:25:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:27:51 hm wait it may be contiguous 16:27:59 [wiki] [[Slim]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44155 * Scoppini * (+1774) Created page for Slim 16:28:21 "A ByteArray# is a just a region of raw memory in the garbage-collected heap, which is not scanned for pointers. It carries its own size (in bytes)." 16:28:40 [wiki] [[User:Scoppini]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44156&oldid=41613 * Scoppini * (+14) 16:31:36 [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44157&oldid=43935 * Scoppini * (+199) Added Slim 16:34:12 [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44158&oldid=43899 * Scoppini * (+128) Added Slim 16:36:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 16:38:45 -!- Virgolang has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:39:00 -!- Virgolang has joined. 16:39:09 -!- Virgolang has quit (Changing host). 16:39:09 -!- Virgolang has joined. 16:40:09 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92-rdmsoft [XULRunner 35.0.1/20150122214805]). 16:48:30 -!- Virgolang has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:49:36 Guys, guys! Someone just found the craziest thing in Idris. 16:50:36 If you use Doubles in types, unification uses float equality, so NaN will not unify with NaN. 16:50:54 This allows you to get a NaN = NaN and a (NaN = NaN) -> Void 16:51:00 but you can't prove Void because they won't unify 16:52:34 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 16:55:33 Exactly. 16:56:08 beautiful 16:56:17 there's probably some really deep maths behind that 16:57:55 More problematically, it will presumably unify positive and negative zero, which will cause inconsistency as soon as some way to distinguish negative zero is added, which I was planning to do. 16:58:32 (we just confirmed that it will) 16:59:53 1/+0 is positive infinity, 1/-0 is negative infintiy? 17:00:12 yes 17:00:16 > 1 / 0 17:00:18 Infinity 17:00:24 > 1.0 / -0 17:00:26 Precedence parsing error 17:00:26 cannot mix ‘/’ [infixl 7] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same infi... 17:00:31 > 1.0 / ( -0.0) 17:00:33 -Infinity 17:00:50 space is needed because it's otherwise a function that subtracts 0 from things, I take it? 17:02:23 it is some weird special rule at least 17:02:45 ais523: No, prefix - is always prefix - in Haskell, IIRC. 17:02:58 The section meaning can’t be gotten that way. 17:03:02 @type subtract 17:03:04 Num a => a -> a -> a 17:03:12 Which is why that function exists. 17:03:36 > (- 1) 7 17:03:38 Could not deduce (Num a0) 17:03:38 from the context (Num a, Num (a -> t)) 17:03:38 bound by the inferred type for ‘e_117’: (Num a, Num (a -> t)) => t 17:03:49 > (1 -) 7 17:03:50 -6 17:04:01 So you can say (subtract x) because (-x) does the other thing. 17:04:09 > (subtract 1) 7 17:04:10 6 17:04:32 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 17:05:33 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:05:33 hijarcane!! 17:05:42 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 17:10:18 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92-rdmsoft [XULRunner 35.0.1/20150122214805]). 17:13:40 > the ((False = True) -> Void) (\Refl impossible) $ cong {f = (> 0) . (1 /)} $ the (-0.0 = 0.0) Refl 17:13:41 :1:13: parse error on input ‘=’ 17:13:45 Erp. 17:13:48 ( the ((False = True) -> Void) (\Refl impossible) $ cong {f = (> 0) . (1 /)} $ the (-0.0 = 0.0) Refl 17:13:48 case block in {val1} Void Refl Refl : Void 17:14:06 There we go. 17:15:26 Now, does anyone know how to do bit-pattern equality on Double in Haskell? 17:16:26 ooh, we've proved Void in Haskell? 17:16:43 approximately how often does that happen? every few months? 17:16:51 ah wait no, that's idris 17:17:14 oren_: can you add the symbols representing control characters: [\x{4200}-\x{241f}]? 17:17:26 > let x (- 0.0) = 1 in x 0.0 17:17:28 1 17:17:38 > 0.0/0.0 17:17:40 NaN 17:17:53 > let nan = 0.0/0.0 in let x nan = 1 in x nan 17:17:55 1 17:17:59 hmm 17:18:13 there is something of an inconsistency here 17:18:37 oren_: these get some use. We use them (except for three) as substitutes on perlmonks to emit valid xml 1.0 (which doesn't allow most control characters) when a user-submitted text contains control characters. 17:18:53 -!- ^v has joined. 17:19:42 zzo38: hi 17:19:59 b_jonas: Ok, i'm done armenian so ill do those next 17:20:30 oren_: mind you, we ampersand-escape them so you won't see them directly in the xml source 17:20:34 b_jonas: O, hello 17:20:48 zzo38: I have a challenge. Make a Magic card that causes trouble on an airport. 17:21:06 It is not so clear to me. 17:21:43 eg. Name: Greater Terror. Cost: {2}{skull}. Rules text: Destroy target nonblack creature and/or target plane- 17:22:10 swalker. Art: A rogue stabbing someone from the back with a small knife on a market square. 17:22:58 That doesn't work because it couldn't be hyphenated that way, mind yuo. 17:25:25 OK, now I can understand though 17:25:33 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 17:25:34 (English text is almost never hyphenated on Magic cards, and even if it could be, the line wouldn't end there: it's large size text because the text is short, so it would be “Destroy target nonblack creature\nand/or target planeswalker.” and I think planeswalker can't be hyphenated after the "e" anyway.) 17:25:57 Maybe if other text is added to force it to be hyphenated there 17:27:08 zzo38: the motivating example is http://mathoverflow.net/a/53738/35417 17:27:30 < ais523> > let nan = 0.0/0.0 in let x nan = 1 in x nan – In case it was unclear, the second nan is a pattern variable and thus x = const 1 17:27:40 Melvar: oh right 17:28:02 I'm not sure this is easily fixable, either 17:28:54 > let x (0.0/0.0) = 1 in x (0.0/0.0) -- I don't expect this to work; and Haskell comments are -- right? 17:28:55 :1:8: Parse error in pattern: 0.0 / 0.0 17:29:35 ais523: As far as I remember, numeric patterns always turn into tests with (==). 17:29:57 So Double patterns will obey float equality. 17:30:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:30:30 So if you could make a pattern for NaN, it would presumably never match. 17:30:57 that would make sense, yes 17:31:03 b_jonas: Ah, OK I can see now 17:31:10 > let nan = 0.0/0.0 in let foo n | n == nan = 1 in foo nan 17:31:12 *Exception: :3:26-45: Non-exhaustive patterns in function foo 17:31:18 Something like that. 17:31:36 this is pretty normal floating-point behaviour 17:31:37 zzo38: and no, I don't think depending on the hyphenation of plane-swalker is a good idea in any case. 17:31:49 It doesn't work for like five reasons. 17:32:00 That part isn't fixable. 17:32:07 it's fine in haskell, but in Idris, it introduces inconsistency and that's an issue 17:32:39 -!- atrapado has joined. 17:34:02 b_jonas: And that hyphenation looks like wrong even if you can force it to hyphenate it there 17:34:24 zzo38: and people _do_ read past the hyphenation 17:35:03 Yes I am sure you will 17:35:36 My dictionary doesn't tell how planeswalker is hyphenated. 17:35:39 Maybe a card used in a planechase game? Then "plane" is an actual type 17:35:45 Hehe! 17:35:49 (Although you can't destroy them as they aren't permanents) 17:36:10 Maybe, though it's not very likely that more planechase cards are printed. 17:36:21 Nor cards that specifically mention them. 17:36:36 Maybe destroy or sacrifice a plains. 17:36:56 Is there even a card with hyphenation in the English text? If so, from what year the latest? 17:37:16 Probably some un-card has some. 17:37:43 "destroy" doesn't work for things in the command zone, though 17:37:57 it'd be "place in the graveyard" or "exile" 17:38:14 Yeah, Longest Card Name Ever Elemenetal has a really long hyphenated word in the flavor text. 17:38:58 ais523: I'm not sure those work either, because the rules stop you from moving plane cards to other zones, but sure 17:39:16 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 17:39:20 probably because someone would find a way otherwise :-) 17:39:27 Do airport guards know from Dune what a thopter is? 17:39:42 If the illustration helps that is? 17:40:17 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 17:40:19 What’s a tho? 17:40:20 the word exists, and presumably someone's tried to make one 17:40:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 17:40:29 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 17:40:36 ais523: Yes, I think for one of those set of rules that seem like backup rules just in case somehow the rules break at first, there actually is some way to activate that. 17:41:14 ais523: Sure, and even if thopters don't work in real life, there's probably porn featuring them. 17:41:20 But that doesn't mean people know the word. 17:41:32 What are they called in Dune actually? Just thopter, or some prefixed form? 17:42:16 I've read first Dune book in English, but only once, and I don't remember. 17:42:30 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 17:42:35 (I've read the first six in Hungarian, but I can't say I'm a big fan.) 17:42:42 there's some card that puts cards into play if they have the same name as a creature 17:43:01 callforjudgement: what? from any zone? 17:43:04 and there are sorceries with the same name as creature types, and cards that create tokens of arbitrary creature types 17:43:08 from some zone, I forget which 17:43:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 17:43:15 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 17:43:18 sorceries with the same name as creature types? 17:43:22 probably with a cost too 17:43:24 b_jonas: Splinter 17:43:53 ais523: you can also just blink a manifested sorcery these days 17:44:19 yep, but the long way round means it can't just be fixed in manifest rules 17:44:21 it even makes sense because blink can work in a morph dekc 17:44:51 but yes, there were one or two more exotic ways for some of these rules 17:44:56 aha, Clarion Ultimatum is the card in question 17:45:01 Splinter ... wow 17:45:13 it lets you search out five permanents from your library with the same name as permanents you control 17:45:19 err, different permanents, I think 17:45:38 and there's even a Splintering Wind that creates Splinter tokens so you don't even have to artificially evolve the token maker 17:45:41 and put them into play 17:45:53 ais523: wow 17:45:57 I see 17:45:59 from your library 17:46:00 funnily enough, the rulings for Clarion Ultimatum actually give a second example 17:46:09 Illusion token and Illusion // Reality 17:46:18 (when matching split card names, you can match either half) 17:46:31 ais523: I think that Echoing Decay can very occasionally affect both a token and a card, without copy effects changing their name 17:46:54 It doesn't quite work for Elvish Warrior because Elvish isn't Elf 17:47:13 there are quite a few creatures whose name is just their creature type 17:47:15 mostly goblins, I think 17:47:22 ais523: sure, Homarid 17:47:43 but is there one for which there's a simple token-maker, without some sort of artifical evolution or generic foundry? 17:47:57 eg. there's multiple cards putting Elf Warrior tokens in play 17:48:09 check lorwyn and morningtide 17:48:26 those are the sets where a race+class token would be most likely relevant 17:48:32 there's Goblin Assassin, but probably nothing creating Goblin Assassin tokens 17:48:56 mind you, there's one card that puts Assassin tokens 17:49:13 ais523: that, or try to search for "creature token" with regexen 17:49:17 I'll try later 17:49:37 b_jonas: Gatherer doesn't support regexen any more 17:49:43 it got broken in the last website update 17:49:44 sure, on a local copy 17:51:24 nothing makes Nightmare tokens either 17:51:58 putting "a 1/1 white Knight creature token" doesn't work either 17:52:32 oh! 17:52:33 -!- aretecode has joined. 17:52:34 there's another instant 17:52:39 ais523: Illusion is an instant 17:52:56 b_jonas: OK, instants and sorceries are pretty much equivalent for this, though, aren't they? 17:52:58 and there are creatures putting Illusion creature tokens 17:53:03 Summoner's Bane 17:53:11 ais523: yes 17:53:16 it's just that that's another one 17:53:22 and possibly less obscure than Splinter 17:53:36 because I guessed it would exist 17:56:16 3331 characters! 17:56:34 and yes, there's lots of creatures printed with creature type names, like Metharan Zombie and Giant Spider 17:56:37 oh, I forgot 17:56:59 ais523: there's a card from the TSP block that actually creates tokens named Llanowar Elves, isn't there? 17:56:59 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:57:09 b_jonas: yes, Llanowar Mentor 17:57:10 Llanowar Mentor 17:57:11 it's part of a cycle 17:57:16 right 17:57:20 Hmm. 17:57:23 so those definitely work with Echoing Decay 17:57:26 five cards each of which create tokens named after cards 17:57:29 which is also a cycle by the way 17:57:51 (one of the created cards was in lorwyn, which came later; future sight's most accurate predictions were about lorwyn for obvious reasons) 17:57:54 yes, and all five are peddlers, aren't there? 17:58:02 spellshapers 17:58:11 that then 17:58:13 most spellshapers mimic sorcery or instant spells 17:58:17 those ones mimic creature spells 17:58:30 Such-and-such. Instant. While Such-and-such is on the stack, all cards have Flash. 17:58:43 right, Ballon Peddler has the type Human Spellshaper 17:59:10 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 17:59:26 and only three cards called Peddler are like that, and there's one other peddler 18:00:41 and yes, TSP predicted Kithkins 18:00:58 and planeswalkers 18:01:08 and tribals 18:03:12 it upset me so much when I found out planeswalkers were actually being added 18:03:34 I mean, we have this weird rigger card that references something that doesn't exist, and has wording designed to make it look like it won't ever exist 18:03:34 The "Kithkin" subtype started in the Legends set 18:03:44 oh, is that part of why you hate Lorwyn? 18:03:51 zzo38: yes, with one card. and TSP block has two or three. 18:03:54 and then we have this lhurgoyf which references a nonexistent card type which Wizards have said they'll never print 18:04:01 I liked them both 18:04:30 (there is mild upside from this: happening to (incorrectly) think Tarmogoyf was a cute reference to something that would never happen was enough to get me to draft one before people realised they were good) 18:04:56 wait, you like Tarmogoyf? 18:05:21 Lorwyn rather ruined it flavourwise for me 18:05:30 but by that point people had figured out it was one of the best cards ever printed 18:05:39 ais523: yes, I understand that, but planeswalkers in particular? 18:05:57 or wait, Lorwyn ruined Tarmogoyf? what? 18:06:00 b_jonas: just the reference to something that would never happen 18:06:22 both the rigger that doubles contraction assembly, and the lhurgoyf that references a nonexistent card type 18:06:40 I'll disappear in about an hour (plus or minus an hour) by the way, for half a day, when my preferred encode of MLP S5 E14 will be available and downloaded. 18:07:15 ais523: the Steamflogger Boss references a non-existant _artifact_ type 18:07:22 contraption 18:07:38 but cards have created tokens of otherwise nonexistant creature types anyway 18:07:49 b_jonas: it references a nonexistent special action, assembly 18:07:56 in a way that's templated to make it almost impossible to implement 18:08:00 oh right, rigger 18:08:10 rigger is a nonexistant creature type 18:08:21 I think Sand token is among the most ridiculous type 18:08:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:08:26 (at least, no official source says it's a special action, but that's the only game element that templates like that) 18:08:30 b_jonas: moriok rigger 18:08:37 also, contraption is officially an artifact subtype 18:08:41 just one that appears on no cards 18:08:46 ais523: exactly 18:08:59 but it appears on Steamflogger, which is enough to bring it to existance 18:09:00 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:09:10 but I think the list of existing artifact types don't matter for anything 18:09:19 because there are no cards like Artificial Evolution for them 18:09:32 or anything that lets you choose or reference arbitrary artifact types in any way 18:09:46 whereas creature types can matter (though there's so many that they won't matter in practice) 18:09:51 and I think land types come up somewhere 18:09:58 you only have a finite supply for your turing machines! 18:09:58 Make up something like that for artifact subtypes maybe 18:10:00 but maybe only existant ones 18:10:06 and I don't think land types generally can be chosen 18:10:18 ais523: probably no, only something like "lands that share type" or something 18:10:19 (although it's amusing that there are four lands with subtype Urza's, not three) 18:10:20 I don't recall 18:10:54 yeah, only basic land types 18:11:07 there's no effect which lets you pick out a subtype other than a creature type 18:11:22 coppro: there is 18:11:25 coppro: Barbarian Guides 18:11:39 huh, you're right 18:11:41 didn't know about that one 18:11:43 weird old card 18:11:50 I have made up the card that has an effect "target spell loses all supertypes and subtypes" 18:11:58 mind you, if you pick a nonexistant type, you just get an ability that doesn't do anything useful 18:12:16 zzo38: Illusionary Presence 18:12:24 zzo38: Landfill 18:12:32 b_jonas: that's not a legal choice 18:12:36 zzo38: Shimmer 18:12:45 landfill doesn't count 18:12:46 zzo38: so you can aim it at a legendary creature, and then it's nonlegendary even after it reaches the battlefield 18:12:53 none of them are really relevant 18:12:54 b_jonas: you've made your point 18:13:09 whoa, Traveler's Cloak 18:13:15 if tron was a thing in legacy 18:13:16 I'm just amused, I didn't know there's so many of these 18:13:22 I would totally play Shimmer just to Shimmer Urza's 18:13:26 I doubt Wizards would print that, because so many people wouldn't realise 18:13:32 still, none of them makes land types matters 18:13:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:13:39 coppro: I think the only reason tron isn't a thing in legacy is that twelvepost is better 18:13:46 yeah 18:13:50 and works much the same way 18:14:00 hmm 18:14:03 you could do Shimmer naming locus 18:14:04 hmm, if you put tron and twelvepost in the same deck 18:14:07 that's 24 lands exactly 18:14:07 ais523: Yes, or at an Aura and it won't be attached to anything, or at a planeswalker and now you can play another same one, or a snow permanent is not snow, etc 18:14:19 now you just need the nonland cards to all be castable from colorless 18:14:32 expedition map costs {1}, right? that'd be a good start 18:15:01 hangarback walker's good I hear 18:15:10 hehe... tron legacy 18:15:34 planeswalker karn 18:15:48 some eldrazi (ulamog is normally the right choice in modern, so probably here too) 18:16:05 emrakul too 18:16:22 out of reach in tron, but doable in post 18:16:34 and a hardcast emrakul is nearly unbeatable 18:16:43 I've seen it done 18:16:58 normally by combo decks which had been crafting their hand over the last few turns 18:17:10 then did a "T:1 combo kill" just not on turn 1 18:18:53 I have made the puzzle once involving beating a hardcast Emrakul 18:19:16 ais523: do you mean Pathrazer of Ulamog? or the big Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre? 18:19:31 infinite gyre 18:19:37 the big onse are tricky because they can't be reanimated from the graveyard 18:19:42 yeah, you can combo out in response 18:19:50 there's some discussion that ceaseless hunger might be good in that sort of deck too 18:19:50 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:19:57 but that one's so new you can't buy it yet 18:19:58 so I've played against a casual reanimator that used Pathrazer of Ulamog among a few other big creatures 18:20:33 in a way that it sometimes tries to search the deck to put to graveyard, and reanimate, so it had I think five different expensive creatures 18:20:45 and it aimed to get one out in turn three or something 18:22:03 ceaseless hunger seems strong 18:24:10 zzo38: there's creature printed 7/11. I wonder if you could get a 9/11 one. 18:24:16 -!- kline has changed nick to ayylmao. 18:25:52 b_jonas: It is possible I suppose. 18:27:59 I want to see how to make the Dungeons&Dragons spell it can cause nonlethal damage but can also convert lethal damage into nonlethal damage too 18:28:35 zzo38: perhaps there should be a metamagic feat for casting spells nonlethally (and perhaps there's one already) 18:29:07 ais523: There is one. 18:29:26 I have seen it in one book saying it takes 1 slot level higher and in another book it says the same slot level. 18:29:50 zzo38: it's not so easy because there are few creatures printed that big. you have to somehow make its size meaningful. and a vanilla creature might not be enough unless you can make its name, type, flavor text, art REALLY good. 18:30:26 zzo38: heheheh 18:30:26 b_jonas: Yes I can believe you 18:31:35 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:34:40 Such as, deals some amount of nonlethal damage to target, and increases their current hit points by half of that amount, rounding up, up to their maximum hit points; does not count as healing for purpose of effects that care. But I am not sure what level, what amount of damage, etc 18:35:36 Some people (including myself) have suggested to make healing to be a subschool of necromancy rather than of conjuration; the DM of the game I am in also agrees. I can further suggest antihealing to be another subschool of necromancy (for spells that heal undead but damage living creatures) 18:36:20 zzo38: does that matter? I thought schools mostly matter for wizards, who don't do healing, as opposed to bards or clerics. 18:37:53 the M:tG rules say that "exchange life totals" effects (which permute life totals among players) count as healing for healing triggers 18:38:03 so do "set life total" effects 18:38:10 Yes I know in M:tG they do 18:38:20 but yes, that's different 18:39:04 But it can also matter for some other things including some rule variants that can be used 18:39:57 So not necromancy has two subschools healing and antihealing, and there is also plain necromancy. 18:42:15 Hmm, besides the cleanup step, regenerate, and "end the turn" effects, are there effects that remove some or all of the damage marked from a creature while keeping them on the battlefield? 18:43:02 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:43:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 18:43:17 b_jonas: I don't know if there are any official ones. 18:43:54 I still think it's weird how land costs work. 18:44:16 Some spells have a cost of zero. Lands do not have a cost of zero. Instead, they have an unpayable cost, but you don't have to pay it. 18:44:44 YAY! I'm tenth ranked of all fontstruct fonts by number of characters 18:45:00 tswett: yes, it's a bit strange. 18:45:06 but it's probably too late to change. 18:45:22 tswett: I am fine with that, although I would have made the rules a bit different. 18:45:29 as in, not worth to change now that everyone knows the rules and there are cards depending heavily on an empty cost being uplayable. 18:45:48 I would allow it to be cast as a spell if it does have a payable cost, but you can still play it as a land too 18:46:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:46:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:49:00 Well, you can just give errata to everything. 18:49:33 A spell land would be interesting. 18:50:16 An enchantment that says "While this card is on the battlefield, this card is a land." 18:50:41 ՀՁՂՃՄՅՆՇՈՉՊՋՌՍՎՏ 18:51:04 tswett: that's much the same as a mox though 18:51:06 oren_: is that armenian or georgian script? 18:51:10 or a mana rock 18:51:13 armenian 18:51:20 It wouldn't necessarily actually have to give you mana. 18:51:36 I haven;t updated the eb page yet, but I will soon 18:52:10 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92-rdmsoft [XULRunner 35.0.1/20150122214805]). 18:55:35 Now, what things, exactly, can be in zones? 18:55:41 Cards, tokens, and abilities? 19:03:05 page now updated! http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm 19:04:29 tswett: also copies of spells 19:04:42 Aha. 19:04:45 And those aren't tokens, I assume. 19:04:46 tswett: and formerly combat damage on the stack 19:04:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:04:54 and copies of abilities! although I'm not sure those are distinguishable from abilities 19:05:11 because neither is represented by a card 19:05:46 tswett: copies of spells are somewhat similar to tokens: they're objects with no underlying card, so their copyable values are set by whatever effect creates them. 19:05:56 ais523: I don't think they are distinguishable 19:06:03 tswett: copies of spells get created in two ways, from effects that copy a spell, and effects that let you play a copy of a spell. 19:06:05 we used to use scraps of paper with "elf" or "goblin" written on them 19:06:18 It's possible for a copy of a spell to have the type "creature", right? 19:06:30 especially since a copy of an ability is an ability 19:06:34 tswett: no 19:06:35 tswett: I'm not sure if any cards actually do that 19:06:40 tswett: you can copy only instant an sorcery spells 19:06:45 * tswett nods. 19:06:53 if it tried to resolve, it'd go to the battlefield and then cease to exist when SBAs were checked 19:07:06 (because once a copy of the spell has left the stack it can't change zones again) 19:07:14 I believe there is no way to get a copy of a permanent spell 19:07:14 What if you have a card that's a "Land Creature Instant"? 19:07:22 Frsrstho... 19:07:31 Are there any cards that have more than one type, one of which is Sorcery or Instant? 19:07:34 tswett: the standard answer is "the rules are not designed to handle impossible cases" 19:07:41 tswett: yes, Tribal ones 19:07:47 tswett: Tribals only 19:07:51 tswett: but not Creature ones or Artifact ones 19:07:55 or in other words, a Land Creature Instant is a contradiction, from which anything follows ;) 19:08:17 That's why everything is legal in every country. 19:08:22 Their laws contain contradictions. 19:08:38 coppro: it's only the Instant there that's the contradiction 19:08:47 although it's possible to get a tribal with no other types, I think 19:08:49 or even a typeless permanent 19:09:33 yes, such things are possible on the battlefield 19:09:40 For a copy of an activated ability on the stack that targets, how does protection treat it, as in, how does it check the characteristic of the base object to determine if it can target the object-or-player with protection? 19:10:01 copy has the same source as the original, I think 19:10:06 yep 19:10:33 I want to write the MTG rules in C#. 19:10:39 ␀␁␂␃␄␅␆␇␈␉␊␋␌␍␎␏ 19:10:42 Say, does C# let you do call-with-current-continuation? 19:10:48 I want to invent a programming language to write the MTG rules with 19:11:34 As far as I can tell if a card's type is "Land Creature Instant" then it let you to play it as a land but then it remains in your hand when you play it, but it still uses up the one land per turn but you cannot tap it for mana or whatever 19:11:36 tswett: http://ra3s.com/wordpress/dysfunctional-programming/a-little-callcc-in-csharp/ 19:11:49 tswett: good luck figuring out how some of the rules work. There's cases I don't know, though you can ask people who are much better in rules than I am. 19:12:10 (But I'm still proud of that one rules hole I found that was acknowledge by wizards.) 19:12:21 b_jonas: what was it? 19:12:30 wiat, if you can do it in c# then you can do it in VB! 19:12:35 And if the type is just "Instant Creature" then it is cast like a instant but can have power/toughness like a creature so effects that refer to it when not in play can still consider it as a creature card and so on 19:12:49 oren_: Well, in VB.NET anyways you could I suppose 19:12:55 eaxtly 19:13:50 ais523: Patron of the Akki with Boros Recruit offered. The hole was patched at about Morningtide, and they replied to my post acknowledging that they knew it from me. 19:13:58 no, VB.NET doesn't have all features of the runtime 19:14:16 it's not a given that something doable in C# is doable in VB.NET 19:14:16 b_jonas: what used to happen? undefined behaviour? 19:14:20 -!- copumpkin has joined. 19:14:22 ✓✔✕✖✗✘ 19:14:31 (Also for a time, C# didn't either. I don't know if that's still true) 19:14:31 ais523: yes 19:14:35 (I think it is) 19:15:08 s/Morningtide/Eventide/ 19:15:17 I noticed it because of the hybrids in Shadowmoor 19:15:21 b_jonas: oh, "difference in mana costs" with hybrid 19:15:37 strangely, neither card has rulings 19:15:55 you'd think they'd at least clarify what the interaction was on one of the cards that made you think about this 19:15:59 (probably on the offering cards) 19:16:03 I'm reasonably sure C# still doesn't let you use every possible feature of... crap, what's it called. 19:16:09 CIL. 19:16:25 Then program in CIL 19:16:27 what happens nowadays? 19:16:32 CLR is the runtime 19:16:45 CIL is the intermediate language 19:17:53 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:18:06 ais523: the new ruling is what I wouldn't affect: if you reduce a cost by {W/R}, you can choose to reduce it by {W} or {R}. (You can remove a {1} when you reduce by {W}, as before.) 19:18:42 This is a bit counterintuitive, but it's similar to how adding the mana cost of a card to your mana pool works (and used to work always, before this ruling). 19:19:00 Can you add {W/R} to your mana pool? 19:19:13 tswett: no, when an effect would add it, you choose to add {W} or {R} 19:19:17 tswett: yes, you get either W or R 19:20:05 it's a very rare effect thoguh 19:21:01 Charmed Pendant and Elemental Resonance has such an effect 19:21:49 Probably fewer cards have it than offering, but of course everyone is trying to forget the bad cards from Kamigawa block 19:21:53 Including me. 19:22:15 The rules and infrastructure can't forget them though, they have to support flip cards and such. 19:22:56 Mind you, flip cards don't really cause that much additional trouble that you wouldn't have from morph and double-faced cards anyway, so it's not a big deal. 19:23:20 I want to practice networking 19:23:23 Anyone have any ideas? 19:23:44 I think flip cards still suck in Gatherer though, they're handled inconsistently in two ways dependin on which flip card. 19:24:06 hppavilion[1]: um, which meaning of "networking" 19:24:12 socketry 19:24:33 I'm a nerd, I can't do networking in a social context xD 19:25:20 hehe, "socketry" is a nice word 19:25:24 I know 19:25:33 Many ponies individually made it up 19:25:43 I should turn off Ponify in hexchat xD 19:26:11 like sorcery or wizardry 19:26:35 hppavilion[1]: nah, it's fine 19:26:39 Too late xD 19:27:02 Anyone have any ideas though? 19:28:56 [wiki] [[ESO Sockets]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44159 * Hppavilion1 * (+123) Created Page 19:29:20 Anyone want to brainstorm ideas? 19:30:40 come on come on come on 19:30:48 it's 19:30Z already 19:31:52 No one? 19:34:10 * Melvar ponders a language in which the way to write a newline in a string is "\␊". 19:34:28 I added trigraphs to underlambda 19:34:35 Does oerjan logread? 19:34:37 what 19:34:45 I dislike trigraphs 19:35:05 well, in C and C++ 19:35:13 in underlambda they might make sense in the eso way 19:35:21 amazingly, all the characters that are awkward in underlambda are either trigraphable characters or the trigger of trigraphable characters 19:35:29 so I just reversed some of the trigraphs 19:35:31 e.g. ??\ is / 19:35:40 also underlambda only accepts trigraphs inside string literals 19:36:06 ais523: is it like dc in that string literals often contain commands? 19:36:17 no 19:36:24 you'd use a code literal for that 19:36:29 ok 19:36:36 ais523, you're a nomicy person, do you agree with me that 126:12's judgement is flawed, because mixing tier 1 + tier 16 isn't necessarily a @ version of an element? 19:36:37 http://www.sir-toby.com/nomic-archives/frc/round126.txt 19:36:40 string literals are just lists of ints, which you'd need to write a parser for to convert into code 19:37:02 Sgeo: wow, you're asking me to make a judgement on a nomic that I'm a member of but has been dead for months if not years? 19:37:24 ais523: dead in what sense? 19:37:31 >.> actually this judgement is from almost 16 years ago 19:37:32 and what is dead, you or the nomic? 19:38:10 b_jonas: the nomic 19:38:19 and in the sense that nobody has made any moves 19:38:22 nor posted to its mailing list 19:38:34 I might complain about this to the mailing list 19:38:39 the nomic isn't in an ossified state or anything like that 19:39:26 ais523: ok, the other two interpretations was that you were dead in that you didn't contribute to that nomic, or that you were dead in some in-game way so that you couldn't contribute 19:39:35 like, negative hit points 19:40:02 Sgeo: also note that FRC basically uses dictatorial judegments 19:40:11 they /can/ be overturned by vote but it's incredibly rare for anyone to even start one 19:40:19 a vote, that is 19:40:43 b_jonas: oh, you were tripped up by English grammar here, I thnk 19:40:45 *think 19:40:52 The judge invited people to point out a flaw in their reasoning 19:40:55 yes 19:40:59 I'm just doing it a bit late 19:41:05 you can't use "has" to refer to yourself unless you're talking about yourself in the third person, you have to use "have" 19:41:10 thus the nomic is the only possible referent 19:41:31 ok 19:41:52 ais523: not even in a relative clause and nonstandard but popular grammar? 19:42:38 I can imagine someone doing it by mistake 19:42:51 but I can't think of a combination where it would be considered correct (perhaps there are exceptions though) 19:42:57 hmm… 19:43:30 How about in clauses that start with “It is I who” ? 19:43:59 ais523, are there mailing list logs somewhere? So I could see if someone else noticed it? 19:44:02 b_jonas: ugh, hmm 19:44:09 I'd use "have" there but I'm not 100% sure it's correct 19:44:13 Sgeo: the mailing list has jumped around over time 19:44:18 it's currently on Google Groups I think 19:44:22 but probably wasn't back then? 19:44:55 What's the worst that could happen if I post about it now? 19:45:59 it is I who've written a brainfuck interpreter. 19:46:02 it is I who's written a brainfuck interpreter. 19:46:27 hmmm... I think who's is more correct 19:46:39 Sgeo: I believe 126:11 is INVALID, because it implies that something is true that would cause a previous rule to be VALID if it were true, and the ruling at the time is that it was false 19:47:04 Sgeo: the destruction of the entire universe, but that's also the worst that could happen if you don't post about it 19:47:06 I say go for it 19:48:54 Sgeo: a previous rule says that mixing in extreme proportions always gives you the @ form of an element that's the difference 19:49:02 so I don't think your complaint is correct 19:49:07 the FRC was great fun, thoguh 19:49:20 so if you want to revive it, I'd be up for it, and maybe some of the older players will turn up 19:50:20 ais523: was fun isn't enough. did it die in a not very broken state? 19:51:16 b_jonas: yes, the state that it died in is that the judge failed to start the next round, and that a majority of players who care to vote is needed to forcibly change the judge 19:51:38 I hope there isn't a quorum, but I don't think there is 19:51:46 in which case I could try to make the change myself 19:51:50 I doubt anyone would /object/ 19:52:32 When did this nomic start and die, in real time? 19:52:45 FRC doesn't have quorum, no 19:52:46 approximately 19:52:49 it predates Agora, but wasn't played continuously when it was active 19:52:53 I think I could be convinced to get back into it 19:53:03 although I wish it would get more legalistic again 19:53:15 FRC rules seem to be here: https://sites.google.com/site/fantasyrulescommittee/regular-ordinances-of-the-frc 19:53:41 hmm… does it use a majority vote in which you can take it over easily if you revive it and nobody responds quickly? 19:53:43 yep, that's correct 19:53:58 ais523: I would vote for a proposal to get it going 19:54:07 looks like rule 14 allows us to change the judge via an overrule proposal 19:54:19 and the forum is still the frc-play google group because nobody's changed it since the last round 19:55:21 ais523: while you're there 19:55:26 propose to make the judge not eligible only once? 19:55:44 ? 19:55:49 4 (a) and (g) 19:56:08 that'd need an amendment, which is different from the overrule we need to get going 19:56:11 so I'll let someone else propose that 19:56:16 Here's an idea 19:56:31 Programming language that works like the Constitution 19:56:40 You can't change previously defined things, you can only ammend them 19:56:45 also I'm not sure I can post to the list since I deleted all my google accounts 19:56:48 but only one way to find out 19:57:21 anyway, David Nicol won round 315 by default 19:57:30 24 January 2012 19:57:39 hppavilion[1]: which "Constitution" works like that? 19:57:49 I'm quite sure ours doesn't, neither the old one nor the new one 19:57:53 b_jonas: The 'Murican one 19:58:14 ok 19:58:24 I don't think that ever works in practice, but whatever 19:59:10 ais523, non-atomic elements 19:59:46 coppro: looks like I can't post to the list 20:00:25 tier 1 would be atomic elements 20:00:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:00:44 coppro: huh, there's been play since I was subscribed there, too 20:00:52 I guess I'm not resurrecting the FRC because Google :-( 20:01:35 ais523: is an overrule even possible? overrules are for a single round, and there's no round 20:01:56 I assumed that we're always in /some/ round 20:02:02 even if you overrule for some particular round (presumably a future one), that won't help because there's no way to start a round 20:02:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:03:22 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 20:03:24 ais523: do you mean the mailing list is subscribe-only? 20:03:35 I mean, postable only if you subscribe 20:03:43 and you can't subscribe without the list admin approving? 20:03:51 Can't you resubscribe? 20:04:05 b_jonas: I can't subscribe without a Google account 20:04:07 which I refuse to get 20:04:09 There's been a post not very long ago, so maybe a list moderator is still active. 20:04:13 (there is also a manual CAPTCHA, too) 20:04:20 ais523: what? I think you can subscribe to a google list from any mailing list 20:04:22 can't yuo? 20:04:33 is that not how these things work these days? 20:04:34 you only subscribe via the web interface 20:04:37 wtf 20:04:40 and tie it to a google account 20:04:41 um 20:04:43 crazy 20:04:44 because google groups isn't really mailing lists 20:04:45 really? 20:04:54 it's a webforum where one of the access methods happens to be via email 20:04:56 ais523: they're not mailing lists only, but they contain a mailing list 20:04:58 or so I thought 20:05:18 so they work differently from yahoo groups? 20:05:19 ok 20:05:58 you could try to contact the current judge and propose to change the forum or something 20:11:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: buying food). 20:11:59 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 20:13:04 Huh. Looks like in MTG tournaments, if your opponent does something illegal, you are generally required to point it out to them; failing to do so may be considered cheating. 20:13:58 tswett: if you know it's invalid, yes 20:14:13 Yes but sometimes you might not notice either 20:14:25 Of course it is cheating though 20:14:27 yes, in that case it's not _cheating_ 20:15:49 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:20:56 It also looks like if your opponent asks you a question that your opponent theoretically should know the answer to, you're required to answer "completely and honestly". 20:25:06 ah, gotta go in a minute, encode is available 20:25:13 I just need a bit of buffer 20:26:02 Ah, apparently it's not cheating unless you're attempting to gain an advantage. 20:26:14 tswett: that provision is interpreted pretty liberally though 20:26:32 sure, because lots of things can give advantage in a game 20:26:45 even risky stuff that might or might not actually help you in the end 20:39:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:40:02 What other weird kinds of ISA could I make? 20:40:16 I'm making one with variable-length instructions 20:41:00 make one where no instruction takes any argument, and each instruction works by modifying the program itself 20:41:13 Interesting... 20:41:16 and there's no control flow but unconditional gotos that jump a set distance 20:41:18 I'll record that idea 20:41:40 I'm making the TaurusVM a set of virtual machines that each do different things 20:41:40 (trying to find a space that esolangs have played in but that hasn't lead to a TC language yet) 20:42:02 What should I do for the binary format? 20:42:07 For TaurusVM in general? 20:42:29 Currently it starts with a null-terminated identifier string that tells it which VM and wich version to use 20:42:41 Followed by a flat binary 20:43:04 -!- evalj has joined. 20:43:12 hppavilion[1]: that seems sensilbe 20:43:21 you might want a fixed header so that tools like file(1) can recognise it 20:43:47 What do you mean a fixed header? 20:46:18 Should I also make an archive format? 20:46:28 You could use ELF. 20:46:33 I could 20:46:38 OR I could invent my own xD 20:51:03 I think a flat binary will do 20:51:43 If you need multiple parts, one way is Hamster archive format, although there are other ways too 20:52:12 -!- tertu has joined. 20:52:18 -!- x10A94 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:55:52 OK 20:56:16 I'll just go with Flat Binary and will change it in the final release if I feel like it 21:00:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:00:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:09:03 btw, for people who like silly Magic decks, starcitygames is reporting that a 60-card Modern deck including 24 basic Islands and 20 basic Swamps came 4th at a WMCQ 21:09:15 the editor added notes saying that he thought someone might be trolling them 21:09:41 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:09:45 What're the other 16 cards? 21:09:56 I'm trying to find evidence here 21:10:16 3 dismal backwater, 3 fairie conclave, 4 reliquary tower, 2 zombie infestation, 4 treasure hunt 21:10:37 (the columnist thought that the dismal backwaters were evidence that the deck was an intentional troll attempt) 21:11:36 unfortunately the scg column doesn't say /which/ WMCQ it was 21:11:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:13:48 That... can't possibly be anything but a troll attempt. 21:14:05 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 21:14:06 Maybe someone literally played it, but even so. 21:14:11 indeed, it's clearly a troll attempt 21:14:33 the question is whether someone was trolling the WMCQ and got really lucky 21:14:41 or whether someone was trolling starcitygames and they fell for it 21:14:48 ?8nod* 21:14:49 Unknown command, try @list 21:14:52 *nod 21:15:21 that deck does at least have a clear win condition 21:16:03 Yes. It is *possible* to play it and win. 21:16:45 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:17:00 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 21:17:30 http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/prog_wins/ the most gratuitous animation possible (if you change the sort order) 21:17:50 ais523: or someone submitted an incorrect decklist as a troll 21:18:00 Although I like the idea of showing kettle in reverse order, it makes those things look like the inkblot tests. 21:18:25 coppro: the judges would have caught it, surely 21:18:54 Although I've got the points/colors inverted from what I described. 21:19:23 it doesn't look /that/ much like an inkblot test because it doesn't really remind me of anything 21:19:47 ais523: only if he was deckchecked 21:20:33 ais523: My wife found meanings for all three she looked at. 21:20:46 coppro: someone who reached the top 8 would be 21:21:13 strangely enough, margins sometimes doesn't stand out that much 21:21:23 ais523: they should be 21:21:33 if it's an inexperienced judge staff, anything could happen 21:21:33 also, perhaps there should be an {average} for the program 21:21:43 is there a card that says target creature gets upkeep 1? 21:21:46 coppro: btw, what happens if you do a deck check and the deck they've written down is /nothing like/ the deck they're playing? 21:21:56 oren_: tabernacle of something is close 21:22:04 pendrell vale 21:22:09 it gives all creatures upkeep 1 21:22:15 and is apparently massively expensive 21:22:29 ah yeah i think that's what i read about once 21:22:54 ais523: I'm probably going to end up disqualifying them for cheating 21:22:58 margins looks pretty :-) 21:23:10 coppro: I'd think that too 21:23:17 but I can see non-cheating cases where it happens 21:23:21 it's not a given, obviously, but they'd have to work pretty hard to convince me they weren't cheating 21:23:24 e.g. when someone writes down their decklist the night before, changes the deck 21:23:26 writes down a new decklist 21:23:32 then submits the old one by mistake 21:23:36 I can too, but I don't need proof 21:23:47 if they say that's why, I'd say "Ok, where's the other one then?" 21:23:55 If they show me the decklist for their actual deck, I might not DQ them 21:24:15 I think I broke the program switcher somehow, which is weird. 21:24:52 I think a fun game with fizzie's visualizations is to find something that shows a graph for all programs 21:24:54 and try to pick out margins 21:24:59 I need to work on margins2 sometime 21:25:05 it'd be like margins but with a better win percentage 21:25:14 maybe 52% rather than 51% 21:25:50 (also, I approve of "vaguely yellowish" as a colour description) 21:27:07 fizzie: err, according to this list, ais523.monolith doesn't draw with itself on every tape length 21:27:25 I think the list of program names is getting screwed up somehow 21:28:13 reproduction: refresh the page, then select monolith from the program list, then choose to sort by points 21:28:39 ais523: I broke the program selector when flipping the points, which was an impressive screw-up. 21:28:48 ah right 21:28:54 so the wrong program is selected 21:28:58 and so you get a different set of results 21:29:13 Yes. Well, technically, what I broke was to freeze the colors of each grid square. 21:29:49 OK, so what we can do is look at the programs, and the one that draws with everything is margins 21:32:06 Yeah, it's pretty yellowish. 21:36:22 the original idea of margins was "win on tape length 10, draw everything else" 21:36:27 it diverged from that a bit 21:36:46 but it's still the case that it cannot move to the enemy flag if the tape length is 13 or longer 21:38:06 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:38:26 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92-rdmsoft [XULRunner 35.0.1/20150122214805]). 21:39:33 GOT THE SET INSTRUCTION WORKING IN TAURUS VM! 21:39:35 I AM SO HAPPY! 21:39:44 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 21:41:27 ALL WORSHIP MY WRATHLY GLORY 21:46:08 OK 21:51:37 -!- tertu has joined. 21:51:54 No one is worshipping my wrathly glory :,( 21:56:20 ●←▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█ 21:58:35 Should I do something with Shared Libraries for Taurus? 22:02:12 Does anyone feel like joining the Zodiac Working Group? 22:02:16 You could; do you have a full specification so far? 22:02:32 zzo38: I have a 0.1 specification for the ISA 22:02:49 Is it an ISA or executable format? 22:02:55 I don't really know xD 22:03:27 I also don't know 22:03:50 I'm just going to call it an ISA for now xD 22:05:29 OK 22:05:39 Some things are both 22:05:42 I think I did it a little weirdly, as every program has access to a 2**64-register array 22:06:02 So do you want to join the ZWG, zzo38? 22:06:09 Not at this time. 22:06:12 OK 22:07:01 I wonder if I'll be able to get a compiler working when I have: a) Finished the IVM b) Written an assembler and c) Designed a language 22:07:15 I might just be too stupid to write compilers xD 22:07:26 Last time I checked, only gods can write them 22:09:48 I settled on a file extenstion for Taurus BTW (though I'll change it if it's taken by something popular): 22:09:49 .tau 22:10:44 -!- ais523 has quit. 22:10:54 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 22:11:57 How should GUI work in TaurusVM? 22:12:29 I don't know, it may depend on how instructions and how other stuff is working, I suppose 22:14:37 Probably 22:23:20 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:25:27 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 22:27:46 Do you know of any good font editors for vector font formats? 22:28:35 No 22:30:17 Okay 22:30:54 Fontforge 22:31:27 I use it to adjust the font properties because fontstruct.com doesn't set them right 22:34:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:35:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:40:29 So you can say (subtract x) because (-x) does the other thing. <-- also "negate" because (-) does the _opposite_ other thing hth 22:42:16 logreading is no fun when everyone who spoke in the logs is absent 22:42:25 (hi Sgeo_) 22:42:39 Hi oerjan 22:43:05 oerjan, so yeah, I posted my complaint to the FRC mailing list 22:43:18 is there one that is still alive 22:43:49 I used frc-play@googlegroups.com. I don't know if it counts as still alive 22:44:34 i wouldn't really know, haven't played for > decade 22:45:41 Well it was a question about a round from almost 16 years ago 22:46:27 i saw that, i think, i don't think i played that round either 22:47:49 definitely not, i was in a mental hospital then 22:48:09 same year my mother died 22:52:20 ais523: hmm. if it's _intentional_ trolling, would the judges be able to disqualify him? 22:52:23 Sorry to hear that 22:53:07 ah! changed the deck and so had to replace with basic lands. could happen, yes 22:53:37 [wiki] [[Roadrunner]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44160 * Tripl3dogdare * (+3042) Created page 22:54:17 [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44161&oldid=44145 * Tripl3dogdare * (+17) /* R */ 22:55:40 basically a less funny ook 22:55:55 disappointing 22:56:01 darn 22:56:07 with such a good name 22:56:27 yeah, you could have done something with the game from.sierra 22:56:35 that would actually be amazing 22:56:48 i don't know about sierra but i know about the cartoons 23:00:07 oh, it's actually lode runner 23:00:19 i started to suspect that 23:00:44 (not that i know that game either. i'm not much of a computer gamer.) 23:00:45 -!- TodPunk has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:01:42 me neither 23:01:58 what format was that? 23:02:08 that game is over 20 years old ... 23:02:28 oh, it has Treasure Hunt! 23:02:32 then it's not trolling 23:02:43 ? 23:02:47 get lots of cards with Treasure Hunt, discard them for Zombie Infestation 23:03:19 it's sort of like those decks with only one or two lands, for that red card that reveals cards from the deck until the first land and deal damage for each one 23:03:36 what? 23:03:46 I'm not saying it's a very good deck, and I'm not familiar with these things though 23:04:09 myname: an M:tG deck discussed three hours ago here 23:04:19 ah 23:04:23 and I mean what M:tG format 23:04:39 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:05:29 -!- TodPunk has joined. 23:12:21 http://worrydream.com/LearnableProgramming/ <-- do you know this? 23:12:47 -!- TodPunk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:12:50 -!- Patashu has joined. 23:23:13 -!- TodPunk has joined. 23:29:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:31:24 [wiki] [[Roadrunner]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44162&oldid=44160 * Tripl3dogdare * (+0) /* External Resources */ 23:36:20 Hmm. What happens if you play Pendrell Flux on a creature which has no mana cost? 23:37:38 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:41:30 I would guess it just gets away with paying nothing? 23:42:22 If the cost was to balance out some sort of advantage it'd be more interesting a decision. 23:43:51 Or is the cost treated as an unpayable cost, meaning there's no way to keep it from getting sacrificed? 23:44:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:44:59 I would err on the former just because the enchantment is basically an attack that relies on it's opponents mana. 23:45:51 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:45:53 But I don't have any particular idea what does into MtG jude decisions other than keeping the game going. 23:52:17 -!- tertu has joined. 23:53:51 The only thing that should be relevant are the rules of the game. 23:54:59 You need to make the rules into a mathematically format that can be put into computer in a new kind of programming language, if it is mathematical then you can figure out much better what is defined or not, it is much more clearly. Use literate programming to make much more clearly even more. 23:58:34 That is how I would design a similar kind of card game.