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00:01:54 <boily> \oren\: you should also 鹽, because density.
00:03:41 <\oren\> uh, I dunno what that one means
00:04:32 <boily> the traditional version of "salt".
00:09:01 <boily> perhaps go with 鬱?
00:09:15 <boily> I'm curious how far you can go with you font metrics.
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00:10:55 <myname> easy, add a bunch of noise
00:17:49 <FreeFull> Clearly all Asian languages should switch to hangul
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00:23:25 <doesthiswork> hangul is cool, but I wouldn't be in this channel if I liked sensible standardization
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00:31:48 <boily> FrelloeFull, mynamello.
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00:35:06 <doesthiswork> that is a very variable morpheme you're adding
00:36:18 <boily> porthelloing people requires flexibility and complete disregard to common grammar courtesy.
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00:59:17 <zzo38> Can a situation be made up out of Magic: the Gathering cards where the colorful mana cost of a delve spell is removed?
01:00:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44374&oldid=44220 * SuperJedi224 * (+98) /* A (horribly slow) 16-bit Brainf*** interpreter */
01:03:45 <zzo38> Let me to see if I can figure out by myself, but anyone else who know answer can also answer
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01:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> It's very abstract though and I don't know how to concretely define its behavior
01:06:45 <zzo38> Then what things do you know about it?
01:08:21 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It's called analogy:simile ("Analogy is to simile")
01:08:34 <hppavilion[1]> It's based on, for lack of a better word AFAIK, analogy clauses
01:08:50 <hppavilion[1]> They gave them to us when I was in 4th-5th grade, I think
01:09:05 <hppavilion[1]> They were usually questions that looked like this:
01:13:33 <hppavilion[1]> They are, but I have a feeling they have a more specific name
01:15:47 <doesthiswork> can you come up with some examples of things you could do with it?
01:16:05 <hppavilion[1]> I can't find what it's called (or even a wiki article on it)
01:16:13 <oerjan> <blurelIse> are you kinda bummed about the double slit being solved? <-- * me is kinda bummed that no one in the log discussion provided a link to wth this is about
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01:18:07 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: I think that, in my current idea, it'd be based on OO and machine learning
01:18:34 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy#Identity_of_relation calls them "analogy questions" including the quotes
01:19:20 <oerjan> oh and Aristotelian format
01:19:23 <doesthiswork> I am curious to see some handwavy example programs
01:22:08 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: Basically, do you know Haskell's infinite list notation?
01:22:47 <hppavilion[1]> Imagine if someone put too much effort into making it so that could recognize the Fibonacci sequence or a million other sequences automagically
01:23:02 <hppavilion[1]> And that is basically the core feature of this language if it follows my current idea set
01:23:53 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
01:24:04 <lambdabot> Powers of 2: a(n) = 2^n.[1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16...
01:24:48 <Jafet> @oeis 1,2,4,8,16,31
01:24:50 <lambdabot> Pentanacci numbers: a(n) = a(n-1)+a(n-2)+a(n-3)+a(n-4)+a(n-5), a(0)=a(1)=a(2...
01:25:15 <Jafet> @oeis 1,2,4,8,16,33
01:25:16 <lambdabot> Generalized Catalan numbers: a(n+1) = a(n) + Sum_{k=2..n-1} a(k)a(n-1-k).[1,...
01:25:53 <lambdabot> Factorial splitting: write n! = x*y*z with x<y<z and x maximal; sequence giv...
01:26:35 <zgrep> "This is called the Melvar sequence, consisting of a maximum of 6 numbers."
01:26:58 <hppavilion[1]> In this language, ^ would be bitwise xor and ** exponentation
01:29:23 <oerjan> @tell blurelIse <blurelIse> im really disliking this whole heavy stuff on a blanket model <-- you'll be happy to know that's not really part of GR then, but a ridiculously oversimplifying analogy that GR experts also hate hth
01:33:01 <doesthiswork> http://math.eretrandre.org/tetrationforum/showthread.php?tid=122
01:34:15 <doesthiswork> the problem is the successor function only takes one argument
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01:38:01 <oerjan> <bakatotest> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/147989/what-is-the-proper-plural-form-of-apparatus <-- huh the top answer to that question is by peter shor. yes, that one.
01:40:58 <hppavilion[1]> (Someone should define "Zhₙ(a, b) ∀(n, a, b) ∋ ℂ" where "Zhₙ(a, b)" is an extended hyperoperation function
01:43:48 <Jafet> oerjan: being a famous personality does not help to resist the power of the Hot Network Questions link box.
01:47:41 <mauris> is R[X]/(X^2 + 1) equivalent to the complex numbers
01:47:44 <hppavilion[1]> I vote that we make up a fictional Mathemetician and attribute all humorous mathematical "discoveries" we make on this channel to him
01:47:57 <oerjan> he also had an interesting comment on a later answer, did you know "syllabus" comes from an ancient misspelling?
01:48:40 <oerjan> i can only conclude peter shor knows his latin.
01:50:45 <mauris> about the quotient ring thingy. but also about how to spell mathematician imo
01:50:46 <hppavilion[1]> English isn't my strongest subject (hence the fact that I had to rephrase the previous sentence so I could spell it properly)
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01:51:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well bourbaki and bovik are taken hth
01:51:56 <mauris> should start with "bow"
01:52:16 <hppavilion[1]> I was going to make his last name "Notta", famous for his "Notta Number Systems", a set of number systems where n/0 is defined
01:53:41 <Melvar> oerjan: That latin plural question reminded me of the thing where in German sometimes to form the plural of foreign words like that, we strip off the ending and then add a German plural ending -en.
01:54:21 <oerjan> Melvar: well norwegian does that with e.g. "museum" -> "museer"
01:54:48 <oerjan> i think it's not that common, though.
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01:55:10 <adu> hppavilion[1]: hi
01:55:17 <adu> hppavilion[1]: again
01:55:54 <Melvar> Museum → Museen, but the one that prompted my reminding was Stadion → Stadien
01:55:56 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm trying to get the channel a fictional mathematician to which we will attribute all our humorous mathematical "discoveries" if we want to
01:56:30 <adu> I'm a mathematitian
01:56:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: Hedwig hth
01:56:52 <adu> but in honor of Euler, I would recommend "Sir Oily"
01:57:15 <oerjan> mostly for the final -ig
01:57:44 <adu> Sir Oilly was a mathematician who lived on the moon, who invented the calculus of emotions, which has been very useful in pre-crime investigations
01:58:14 <hppavilion[1]> What should his birthyear be (pleasebeacomplexnumberpleasebeacomplexnumberpleasebeacomplexnumber)
01:59:05 <adu> probably 2025 + sqrt(-2)
01:59:10 <Melvar> “Apparat” doesn’t have the ending in the first place, and thus takes an -e plural. “Status” is so rarely pluralized, it takes a Latin plural, meaning it stays “Status”.
02:00:35 <adu> or even better: (-4000000)^(1/4)
02:01:07 <adu> which means he could have been born in any one of 8 places in the complex time-plane
02:02:30 <adu> or perhaps the calculation should be based on J2000
02:02:57 <adu> J2000 + (-4)^(1/4) microseconds
02:04:30 <hppavilion[1]> What did his poor, farming family farm for a living?
02:04:55 <adu> oooo, it would have to be bitcoins
02:07:01 <adu> also complex
02:07:18 <adu> but it's a boring one because 1 of the roots is -1
02:08:36 <adu> and one day, he accidentally planted an J2EE seed, and got a giant J2EEBeanStock in his backyard
02:10:12 <adu> and rediscovered lambda calculus, not to be famous, or get into the Turing/Church prodecural/function debates, but because we was stuck in his house, and wanted to go outside to get a new 802.11ac router
02:11:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44375 * Hppavilion1 * (+919) Created Page (in user namespace for safety)
02:11:53 <hppavilion[1]> adu: You can go edit the page in my user namespace
02:13:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44376&oldid=44375 * Hppavilion1 * (+5) Added Mdr. prefix to introductory paragraph (should it be bold?)
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02:22:30 <oerjan> <tswett> All of those words are made up entirely of straight lines. <-- except for NEITHER hth
02:23:14 <tswett> I'm going to assume that the inclusion of R was an error.
02:23:34 <oerjan> definitely the kind of puzzle you should check programmatically. like writing a novel without E
02:23:46 <oerjan> (you could also remove the keycap)
02:24:00 <tswett> As everyone knows, writing a novel without E is effectively impossible without a typewriter.
02:24:59 <tswett> I'm going to re-say that.
02:25:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44377&oldid=44376 * 73.133.129.229 * (+1022)
02:25:07 <tswett> Ignore the above three lines and this line.
02:25:13 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I wrote a little bit
02:25:14 <tswett> As everyone knows, writing a novel without E is effectively impossible with a typewriter.
02:27:51 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Are you the one who came up with @? <-- i thought that was elliott
02:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> hppavilion[1]: It was Sgeo. I have it documented. Not sure if elliott == Sgeo.
02:28:51 <oerjan> btw hedwig is a female name but e's a Mdr. anyway so who knows
02:28:55 <adu> hppavilion[1]: it's not perfect, but I think it's funny enough for a first draft
02:28:56 <Sgeo> elliott !+ Sgeo
02:29:12 <Sgeo> oerjan, maybe we're thinking of different @s?
02:29:35 <Sgeo> Mine is the one where |x| is redefined such that |a + b@| = |a| - |b|
02:30:12 <tswett> It's... I guess it's a number such that |@| = -1.
02:30:17 <oerjan> oh it's for metadoctor
02:30:37 <oerjan> Sgeo: i was thinking of elliott's OS
02:30:55 <HackEgo> 446) <oerjan> sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
02:31:03 <tswett> Let's see. For a complex number z = a + bi, with a and b real, a^2 + b^2 = |z|^2.
02:31:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44378&oldid=44377 * Hppavilion1 * (+29) Sectionized discoveries
02:35:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44379&oldid=44378 * Oerjan * (+5) tense spacing
02:48:18 <izabera> what do you do when you're op in a channel and people start talking about off topic things but they're not interrupting any other discussion because there was none?
02:50:52 <zzo38> That doesn't seem a problem to me in most cases
02:52:10 <izabera> they're ranging from politics to bsdm to cracking systems
02:54:59 <zzo38> If nobody has any on topic things to write about at the current moment then at least I don't care; but others may have different opinion
02:57:45 <Sgeo> tswett, at least, |a| + |b| >= |a + b| no longer holds
02:59:26 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, and I expect that would make it to be not a metric, isn't it? Then why do they call it a metric?
03:00:12 <Sgeo> I don't think I called it a metric. It's possible that it was a metric before but my redefinition (which is really the only 'legitimate' way to do this, I'm guessing) makes it not a metric anymore
03:00:15 <oerjan> izabera: ais523 has some opinions on that, as i recall.
03:00:17 <izabera> what is your definition of |x| ?
03:00:32 <izabera> oerjan: on politics or bsdm?
03:00:43 <oerjan> no, he tries to defuse disturbing discussions
03:00:53 <oerjan> those subjects probably qualify
03:01:03 <Sgeo> izabera, if there is no @, then |x| = abs(x). Else, |a + b@| = |a| - |b|
03:01:28 <Sgeo> At least, unless that definition of |x| has an inconsistency, then we go back to only knowing that |@| = -1
03:01:38 <izabera> oh you posted it a few messages ago
03:02:49 <oerjan> zzo38: i believe there have been people who left this channel because they found some of the political discussions disturbing.
03:03:07 <oerjan> we've got less of those discussions these days, i think
03:04:30 <Sgeo> ? Why isn't it |0| - |1|? Or, why are you saying you can do |0| - |1@| ?
03:04:34 <zzo38> izabera: That doesn't seem Sgeo's definition?
03:05:57 <oerjan> Sgeo: hm your @ looks a bit similar to minkowski metric
03:06:15 <oerjan> that involves squaring
03:12:01 <izabera> that's entirely non obvious
03:15:00 <Sgeo> I don't know how to ^@
03:15:27 <zzo38> Then try to figure out how
03:15:44 <FreeFull> e^x is exp(x) which is 1 + x + x^2 / 2! + x^3 / 3! + ...
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03:17:31 <FreeFull> I think hyperbolic functions are applicable somehow
03:17:54 <Sgeo> |@@| = - |@| = 1
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03:19:18 <Sgeo> FreeFull, that seems useful
03:19:22 <Sgeo> The exp(x) thing
03:20:01 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Yeah, it's how matrix exponentiation is generalised for example
03:20:22 <Sgeo> Hmm I think |e^@| = e^-1 ?
03:20:23 <FreeFull> Or the justification for how exponentiation works in the complex numbers
03:23:48 <tswett> I think I'd say |x| is naturally treated as a multivalued function, having y as a value if and only if it has -y as a value.
03:23:54 <tswett> And having at most two values.
03:24:12 <tswett> If you look at it this way, then |x| = -1 just means the same thing as |x| = 1.
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03:26:39 <tswett> The graph of the absolute value function looks like a cone; the shape becomes more elegant if you extend it to a double cone.
03:26:45 <tswett> I think I can define "becomes more elegant" precisely.
03:27:36 <tswett> Yeah. A double cone is the graph of the equation x^2 + y^2 = z^2.
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03:27:44 <tswett> A cone is no such thing.
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03:28:10 <FreeFull> Sgeo: e^@ = cosh(1) + @*sinh(1)
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03:29:58 <Sgeo> FreeFull, I was looking at your expansion, where each x is, when ||ed a -
03:30:10 <Sgeo> I don't understand hyperbolic trig though
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03:31:06 <tswett> sinh and cosh are pretty simple. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_function
03:31:23 <tswett> They're just (e^x ± e^-x)/2.
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03:32:17 <tswett> So we have a pretty trivial identity e^x = cosh x + sinh x, meaning that e^@ = cosh @ + sinh @.
03:33:16 <tswett> Now, I think the way I'd handle this is to say that every complex number besides 0 has two variants, one whose absolute value is positive and one whose absolute value is negative.
03:33:44 <tswett> Then the question is how to extend arithmetic appropriately.
03:34:12 <tswett> You could define @ as the variant of 1 whose absolute value is negative.
03:35:01 <Sgeo> tswett, is this different from adding a boolean dimension to the complex numbers?
03:35:31 <tswett> Well, under my scheme, 0 only has the one variant.
03:36:50 <tswett> I'm imagining multiplication being such that @^2 = 1.
03:37:18 <FreeFull> tswett: Yes, we've established @*@ = 1 too
03:38:03 <tswett> Have you decided that @ is negative?
03:38:31 <Sgeo> I don't remember establishing @@=1
03:38:35 <Sgeo> Just that |@@| = 1
03:38:52 <Sgeo> Is i considered positive?
03:38:54 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Ok, it hasn't been formally proven
03:39:18 <Sgeo> So I guess negative i is not negative?
03:39:18 <FreeFull> I wonder how this compares to a Clifford algebra with e1² = 1
03:39:20 <Sgeo> This amuses me.
03:39:41 <Sgeo> FreeFull, I wish I knew what that meant
03:40:30 <tswett> Of course, negative negative one isn't negative, either.
03:41:32 <tswett> For convenience, I'm gonna abbreviate the sign of the absolute value of a number as its SAV.
03:42:00 <tswett> The ordinary numbers we're used to are (with the exception of 0) positive-SAV numbers.
03:42:17 <tswett> Each positive-SAV number has a counterpart which is a negative-SAV number, and vice versa.
03:43:24 <tswett> You can switch between these two counterparts by multiplying by @, which is simply the negative-SAV counterpart of 1.
03:43:37 <tswett> Multiplication is still associative and commutative, and @^2 = 1.
03:43:50 <tswett> 0 is neither positive-SAV nor negative-SAV, since its absolute value is 0.
03:43:55 <tswett> This tells you how to do multiplication.
03:44:13 <tswett> As for how to do addition?
03:44:53 <tswett> I feel comfortable saying this much: the sum of two positive-SAV numbers is the expected positive-SAV number and the sum of two negative-SAV numbers is the expected negative-SAV number. The sum of 0 with any number is that number.
03:45:13 <tswett> The case I'm leaving undefined is the sum of a positive-SAV number and a negative-SAV number.
03:46:05 <FreeFull> I justified @^2 = 1 by thinking about |x|^2 = x^2
03:46:11 <FreeFull> Although that's not really a proof
03:46:45 <FreeFull> It's because I was previously thinking about polynomials where x^2 gets replaced with |x|
03:47:03 <tswett> |x|^2 = x^2 doesn't hold for imaginary numbers.
03:47:17 <Sgeo> I think |a + b@| = |a| - |b| is also something that seemed to fit, was thinking about squaring I think
03:47:28 <Sgeo> It should be in the logs somewhere
03:48:05 <Sgeo> 1 + @ is a zero-SAV number that is not equal to 0
03:49:38 <Sgeo> tswett, yes, assuming we accept my above definition, which I don't think has any blatant problems so is there a reason not to?
03:50:01 <Sgeo> 1 + @ = 0; 1 = -@; -1 = @;
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03:50:16 <tswett> This means that |10 + 3i@| is also 7.
03:50:48 <tswett> Which definitely doesn't sit well with me.
03:51:18 <FreeFull> Why are you bringing i into this?
03:51:24 <Sgeo> Hmm, I'm not sure what the problem is? |i| = 1
03:51:35 <tswett> Well, |10 + 3i| isn't 13.
03:51:44 <Sgeo> Good point, hmm
03:52:09 <FreeFull> I don't think we can chuck i in just like that
03:52:30 <Sgeo> |10 + 3i@| = |10| - |3i| = 10 - 3 = 7
03:53:00 <FreeFull> I think @ is orthogonal to i, so it's ok
03:53:22 <tswett> That's a funny sort of orthogonality.
03:53:25 <FreeFull> Both a and b can be separate complex numbers
03:53:30 * zgrep wonders what @ is...
03:53:49 <FreeFull> zgrep: A fancy new number with a negative magnitude
03:53:53 <tswett> FreeFull: now, what would justify |a + b@| = |a| - |b|?
03:53:57 <zgrep> tswett: I know for a fact, that I do quite profusely.
03:54:22 <tswett> It seems like an extension of the rule that |a + b| = |a| + |b|, but that rule isn't actually true.
03:54:29 <Sgeo> zgrep, a number such that |@| = -1, alternatively, a system in which || is redefined to allow for |@| = -1
03:55:10 <FreeFull> tswett: |a + b@| isn't the same as |a + b| though
03:55:11 <Sgeo> tswett, I think it's clear though that |a + b| <= |a| + |b| without @, but breaks when @ is introduced
03:55:15 <tswett> You know, I had a thought just now.
03:55:39 <FreeFull> tswett: Just as |a + bi| isn't the same as |a + b|
03:56:07 <tswett> I still don't see any justification for |a + b@| = |a| - |b|.
03:56:12 <Sgeo> FreeFull, the thing is with |a + bi| you don't just add or subtract, it involves squaring and square roots
03:56:40 <tswett> In any case, define a transconic number as a pair (z,v) where z is a complex number and v is a real number.
03:56:48 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Here we aren't just adding or subtracting either, it involves the magnitudes of the components
03:56:54 <tswett> The absolute value of (z,v) is v.
03:57:50 <Sgeo> This seems like it might admit more numbers than the @ system
03:57:56 <tswett> The transconic numbers are an extension of the complex numbers; the complex number z corresponds to the transconic number (z,|z|).
03:58:33 <tswett> Multiplication just goes elementwise: (z,v) * (z',v') is (z*z', v*v').
03:58:46 <FreeFull> tswett: Do you get the identity exp(@x) = cosh(x) + @*sinh(x) from this?
03:59:15 <tswett> FreeFull: it's not obvious to me where that identity comes from.
03:59:41 <FreeFull> tswett: taylor expansions of exp, cosh and sinh around 0
04:00:00 <tswett> I don't know if you get that identity or not.
04:00:06 <Sgeo> tswett, that identity does rely on |b@| = -|b| I think
04:00:34 <FreeFull> It just relies on @^2 = 1 I think
04:01:20 <tswett> |10 + 3i| = |10 + 3i@^2| = |10| - |3i@| = |10| + |3i|
04:01:39 <tswett> Anyway, the question regarding these "transconic numbers" is how to do addition.
04:02:20 <Sgeo> A bit distracted by work related phone call right now
04:02:33 <tswett> What we would kind of like to say is that (z,v) + (y,w) is (z+y, v+w).
04:02:54 <tswett> The z+y part is indeed what I want, but adding two numbers doesn't generally add their absolute values.
04:03:24 <Sgeo> Not all transconic numbers can take the form a+b@, I believe
04:03:24 * zgrep imagines what a ((work related phone) call) would be like... a sort-of... formal ringing?
04:03:55 <tswett> A call, whether business or personal, placed on a company-owned phone?
04:04:11 <zzo38> Yes that is what I thought too
04:04:24 <zgrep> tswett: That's a (work related)(phone call).
04:04:32 <FreeFull> What happens if we want another number, %, where |%| = i ?
04:05:24 <zgrep> tswett: Oh... maybe not.
04:05:34 <tswett> Lemme see. What's the formula for |a + b| given |a|, |b|, and the required extra info?
04:06:02 <Sgeo> What happens if we try to do it geometrically?
04:06:08 <tswett> This is related to the law of cosines.
04:06:15 <zzo38> zgrep: I thought a (work related)(phone call) would be a call discussing work, so normally business but it might not necessarily be (it could be a personal call where someone ask you how long until you are home from work I suppose, but I am not sure if it count actually)
04:06:17 <shachaf> Does |a + b| count as required extra info?
04:06:26 <Sgeo> Like, @ defines a third dimension, such that going along the dimension negates instead of adds to the distance?
04:06:32 <zgrep> zzo38: Yeah, I realized that after a few seconds.
04:06:56 <zgrep> Quite a few of them.
04:06:57 <FreeFull> If we're talking just about real numbers, you could do a formula with some trouble, I think
04:06:58 <tswett> Sgeo: that's more or less what I'm doing.
04:07:52 <FreeFull> signum(a) and signum(b) would be required extra info, I believe
04:07:58 <Sgeo> I think it's different, your additional dimension is the actual absolute value, where mine only contributes differently
04:08:20 <tswett> Okay, I think the equation I want is |a + b|^2 = |a|^2 + |b|^2 - |2ab| cos(gamma).
04:08:26 <Sgeo> |a+bi+c@| = sqrt(a^2 + b^2 - c^2) ?
04:08:31 <tswett> Where gamma is the relevant angle.
04:09:11 <tswett> cos(gamma) is, I think, the real part of the signum of a/b.
04:09:27 <Sgeo> Hmm I don't know what to do with |i@|
04:09:44 <Sgeo> Wait didn't I break that sqrt approach once before in the logs?
04:09:53 <tswett> No, that can't be right...
04:10:19 <tswett> D'oh. That certainly can be right.
04:10:41 <Sgeo> Oh right sqrt is usually defined as positive
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04:11:34 <FreeFull> We need an actual mathematician
04:11:42 <tswett> Okay. |a + b|^2 = |a|^2 + |b|^2 - |2ab| Real(Sgn(a/b)).
04:12:04 <coppro> actual mathematician here. what's the emergency?
04:12:08 <Sgeo> |a + b@| = sqrt(a^2) - (sqrt(a^2 + b^2) - sqrt(a^2))
04:12:08 <tswett> This implies that |a + b| = sqrt(|a|^2 + |b|^2 - |2ab| Real(Sgn(a/b))).
04:12:18 <tswett> coppro: do you have published research?
04:12:27 <coppro> tswett: not published, but I have an approved thesis
04:12:41 <Sgeo> |a + b@| = 2a - sqrt(a^2 + b^2), does this make sense as reasonable?
04:12:57 <Sgeo> busy right now will run some numbers through that later
04:12:59 <tswett> So the question for my thing is, of course, which square root?
04:16:06 <Sgeo> FreeFull, equiv. and makes it more intuitive, ty
04:16:22 <Sgeo> Wait no still not intuitive
04:17:49 <Sgeo> The idea is that I'm capturing the extent that the dimension contributes to distance, and negating it
04:18:09 <tswett> It might turn out that the answer is "the obvious one".
04:18:36 <tswett> In any case, I have an addition formula now. It's horrible, but it exists.
04:19:21 <tswett> (z,v) + (y,w) = (z+y, sqrt(v^2 + w^2 - 2vw Real(Sign(z/y))))
04:20:43 <tswett> And the icky thing is, I don't know how to determine which square root you use.
04:20:51 <FreeFull> All we need now is someone to prove all of this mess inconsistent
04:21:16 <tswett> My stuff is undoubtedly inconsistent with some axioms obeyed by the complex numbers, but it's consistent per se.
04:22:22 <tswett> That would hypothetically be (1,i).
04:22:40 <tswett> But I'm currently not permitting the v part to be non-real.
04:24:09 <Sgeo> Are our defintions similar or different? They look different, can we put some numbers in?
04:24:41 <Sgeo> Per mine, |1+@| = 2 - sqrt(2) = I have no idea if that's sane
04:25:11 <Sgeo> Per yours, |1+@| = sqrt(0 - 0) = 0
04:26:14 <tswett> Per mine, |1+@| is the absolute value of 1 + @ = (1,1) + (1,-1) = (2, sqrt(1^2 + (-1)^2 - 2(1)(-1) Real(Sign(1/1))))...
04:27:11 <tswett> And that square root is sqrt(1 + 1 + 2), or 2.
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04:27:29 <tswett> So the answer is (2, 2), except I don't have a basis for choosing whether it's 2 or -2.
04:27:44 <tswett> So 1 + @ is undecided between 2 and -2.
04:28:00 <tswett> I'd prohibit that sum.
04:28:06 <FreeFull> Sgeo: So, you're not going with |1+@| = 0 any more?
04:28:09 <tswett> Rather, it's undecided between 2 and 2@.
04:28:46 <tswett> Yeah. In general, z -> (z, |z|)
04:29:11 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone want to go on a long, rambling discussion about that?
04:29:26 <Sgeo> It equals -1/0, hth
04:29:26 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: sure. That discussion is called "projective algebraic geometry".
04:30:11 <Sgeo> FreeFull, I don't think so
04:30:35 <tswett> Well, projective algebraic geometry involves adding points that are essentially located at 1/0.
04:30:52 <Sgeo> tswett, are -1/0 and 1/0 equivalent in projective algebraic geometry?
04:31:07 <FreeFull> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_projective_line
04:31:22 <tswett> Projective algebraic geometry doesn't really treat 1/0 as a number.
04:31:45 <tswett> But the projective version of the real line (which is the thing FreeFull just linked) does have a number 1/0, which is the same as -1/0.
04:32:06 <tswett> Maybe I should call it a point instead of a number.
04:32:31 <FreeFull> There is also the complex projective line
04:32:45 <FreeFull> Which also has a single point at infinity
04:32:54 <hppavilion[1]> And, I presume, the quaternionical projective line?
04:33:06 <tswett> FreeFull: that's also called the Riemann sphere, isn't it?
04:33:38 <Sgeo> |x+@| = 0 in my system, 2x - sqrt(x^2 + 1) = 0; 2x = sqrt(x^2 + 1), 4x^2 = x^2 + 1; 4x^2 - x^2 - 1 = 0; 3x^2 - 1 = 0; 3x^2 = 1; x^2 = 1/3; x= 1/sqrt(3) ?!?!?
04:34:05 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: Well i! equals some weird shit, so... that's fine, really
04:34:14 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: there are a lot of ways to do that.
04:34:18 <tswett> Like, say... lambda calculus.
04:34:29 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: That doesn't make sense, * is dyadic and √ is monadic
04:35:25 <Sgeo> Can we prove that we can have |a + b@| have different definitions that are each individually consistent with themselves?
04:35:40 <tswett> What makes it cheating?
04:36:00 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: It isn't fun if it's already been done, unfun things are cheating, so you cheated
04:36:34 <Sgeo> Hmm does my approach introduce an asymetry between a and b?
04:36:48 <Sgeo> That would be displeasing
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04:37:56 <blurelIse> hp, does your equation produce an integer?
04:38:53 <tswett> Let & be such that |&| = & and & is not zero or positive.
04:39:10 <hppavilion[1]> bender|: You wouldn't happen to have any ideas as to how that could work, would you?
04:39:25 <FreeFull> Can we do this with some other function? Instead of |x|, why not sinc(x)?
04:40:53 <hppavilion[1]> I have decided that "@" (the character, not the number) is now called the "atpersand" in my book, "Arbitrary Names for Arbitrary Things".
04:41:35 <FreeFull> Sgeo: tswett: We need to think about what signum means for our special numbers
04:41:47 <FreeFull> If we want to keep the relation x = signum(x)|x|
04:42:06 <Sgeo> FreeFull, good point
04:42:21 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], tells you whether a number is negative, positive, or zero.
04:42:34 <tswett> For the complex numbers, sgn(x) = x/|x|.
04:42:39 <Sgeo> Can be defined as |x|/x if x != 0. This obviously may no longer be accurate
04:42:48 <tswett> Also applies to the real numbers.
04:42:57 <tswett> |x|/x doesn't work for the complex numbers.
04:43:15 <tswett> FreeFull: on my blog, sgn(0) is undefined.
04:43:23 <Sgeo> Oh didn't realize there's a difference between |x|/x and x/|x|
04:43:40 <tswett> i/|i| is i, |i|/i is 1/i which is -i.
04:44:14 <Sgeo> @ = sgn(@)|@|; @ = -sgn(@); sgn(@) = -@
04:44:30 <tswett> Yes, because i * -i = -(i * i) = -(-1) = 1.
04:44:34 <tswett> All right. I should go to bed a couple of hours ago.
04:46:07 <Sgeo> I think so. @ * |-@| = -@
04:46:15 <hppavilion[1]> Assuming we preserve the property that sgn(x) = -x which probably isn't a property now that I think about it?
04:46:48 <Sgeo> |-@| = -1, right?
04:48:14 <Sgeo> I think the sgn thing is the most solid thing we have
04:48:29 <hppavilion[1]> Should you put it in a formal document and publish it?
04:49:10 <hppavilion[1]> I would call the document "Making up numbers: A study of studying solutions to undefined algebraic expressions"
04:49:34 <hppavilion[1]> (because @ is the solution to the "formerly" undefined algebraic expression |x|=-1, of course)
04:52:20 <hppavilion[1]> Here's your next assignment: sin(@), cos(@), tan(@) xD
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04:54:12 <Sgeo> |a + b@| = 2a - sqrt(a^2 + b^2); |4 + 3@| = 8 - sqrt(16 + 9 = 25) = 8 - 5 = 3
04:54:37 <Sgeo> Seems a bit odd to me
04:55:34 <Sgeo> I have no idea what Zh means
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04:56:11 <Sgeo> tswett's approach gives meaningful definition to addition, where I just leave them in current form
04:58:00 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperoperation#Definition
05:00:07 <hppavilion[1]> I probably should've put some parenthesis in that last one
05:01:24 <zzo38> Is it possible to use normal HTTP proxies rather than CONNECT proxies for HTTPS in Firefox?
05:02:01 <coppro> zzo38: the proxy can't issue a valid certificate, nor can it negotiate a connection on your behalf
05:02:13 <hppavilion[1]> I want to define a new function called Zh[n](a, b) which defines the hyperoperation for as many possible numbers as possible
05:02:40 <Sgeo> I don't see how to attempt to prove a contradiction in any of the |a + b@| definitions
05:03:02 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe you've just invented an entirely new type of number
05:03:15 <zzo38> coppro: The proxy shouldn't need to issue a certificate in such a case
05:03:16 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe you're one of the greatest genii of our generations
05:03:16 <Sgeo> There are some definitions that are bad though.
05:03:38 <Sgeo> |a + b@| = -a really, really sucks as a definition
05:03:44 <coppro> zzo38: you need a certificate for HTTPS though. that's the point
05:04:01 <zzo38> I mean it should send "GET https://example.org/ HTTP/1.1" to the proxy server if you request https://example.org/ and otherwise ignore the HTTPS stuff and delegate all such stuff to the proy server to handle instead
05:04:32 <zzo38> (But it should be an option; you should also be allowed to use CONNECT proxies if you wish to handle encryption on the client instead)
05:05:47 <hppavilion[1]> |@|=-1 is actually one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen
05:05:49 <Sgeo> If b can be c@mplex, you'd get |a| + |@@| = |a| - @ and I don't think we've attempted to get @ absolute values
05:06:02 <zzo38> To allow it by another kind of PAC response perhaps
05:06:24 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: So is c@mplesx of the form (a+bi+c@+di@) or (a+b@)?
05:06:38 <Sgeo> I'd love to get to that first one eventually
05:07:01 <hppavilion[1]> I hope I live long enough to see this become a thing
05:07:16 <Sgeo> |a + bi + c@| seems easy enough with my approach at least.
05:07:26 <coppro> zzo38: that would not work, because the proxy will not handle https
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05:08:14 <Sgeo> |a + bi + c@| = 2*sqrt(a^2 + b^2) - sqrt(a^2 + b^2 + c^2)
05:08:16 <zzo38> I used a PAC file with the "file:" scheme and it works, even though Wikipedia says to publish to HTTP server; but using a local file is going to be faster and more versatile and more secure too.
05:08:24 <coppro> zzo38: I suppose it is technically possible but it would be bad to accept it
05:08:25 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: Can you make a formal document describing what you've discovered so far about @?
05:08:32 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], not tonight
05:08:38 <zzo38> coppro: Well, many proxies don't, but a few proxies do, so in the cases where it does, it would be accepted.
05:08:38 <zgrep> How about an informal one.
05:08:44 <coppro> because it would not actually be a secure connection and the client software should not lie to its user like that
05:08:52 <zzo38> (Of course the proxy could be localhost if you want to)
05:09:04 <hppavilion[1]> Starting with the bases and explaining the highlights of what you've derived from it
05:09:12 <zzo38> coppro: It doesn't lie; the user must program the proxy explicitly.
05:09:26 <coppro> zzo38: but even so, they would assume an https connection is secure
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05:09:35 <zzo38> If it requires a PAC file loaded with the "file:" scheme then it is more safe
05:09:55 <zzo38> It can be made to refuse to do that if the PAC is loaded from any other scheme
05:09:55 <coppro> doing that would give neither an encrypted connection, since the connection to the proxy would be unencrypted, nor validation of the server certificate
05:10:12 <zzo38> coppro: The proxy would validate the certificate if that is wanted.
05:10:27 <blurelIse> hppavilion[1], http://oeis.org <---huge list
05:10:32 <coppro> a) the client can't trust the proxy's validation
05:10:44 <coppro> b) the proxy has no way to communicate that it rejects the proxy's assessment
05:10:48 <coppro> that it rejects the certificate
05:10:50 <zzo38> coppro: The user would have to implicitly trust it when configuring the proxy
05:10:54 <Sgeo> I think there's a weird shape defined as |x + y@| = 0
05:11:19 <hppavilion[1]> I know what oeis is, but it's a list of what particularly in this case?
05:12:34 <blurelIse> well, if anything it also gives you a general layout for publishing without a paper
05:13:11 <blurelIse> each sequence has an equation that creates it, so theres all sorts of fun stuff in there
05:14:41 <zzo38> You could return a 5xx error or 4xx error or whatever in case of certificate errors.
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05:17:22 <coppro> zzo38: this seems inferior to CONNECT
05:21:06 <Sgeo> I think the old |a+b@| played nicely with throwing random garbage in there, I'm not sure if this one will
05:21:53 <Sgeo> |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi| might behave differently in edge cases, so let's use this
05:22:15 <Sgeo> Actually that i could complicate the issue... hm don't know what do
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05:23:05 <Sgeo> |@ + @| = 2@ - |@ + i| = ???; 2@ - sqrt(@^2 + 1) = ???
05:24:01 <Sgeo> The latter, but trying to see if my definition breaks
05:24:40 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bid bf @ ? .
05:25:04 <Sgeo> 2@ - sqrt(@^2 + 1) = -2; 2@ = sqrt(@^2 + 1); 4@^2 = @^2 + 1; 3@^2 = 1; @^2 = 1/3 = what?
05:25:14 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], not really
05:25:27 <Sgeo> Stress-testing definitions
05:25:32 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bid bf @ ? .
05:25:34 <zzo38> coppro: In some ways it is, but it also allows you to do some stuff that you might want to do otherwise
05:25:49 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], yeah, so I'm going to stay away from using that definition
05:25:59 <Sgeo> Was using the |a+bi| thing as a shortcut to say 2d distance
05:26:33 <Sgeo> Maybe I just actually want a vararg dist() function
05:26:48 <Sgeo> But if I say dist() always returns positive, we end up right back where we started
05:27:50 <Sgeo> You know what, I might go back to that one that used || with imaginary
05:28:05 <Sgeo> |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi|
05:28:16 <zzo38> For example if you want to ignore some certificate errors or if you want to modify the headers or make a backup copy, then you can program the proxy to do such thing. This feature can be useful if it is a LAN proxy you can make a shared cache
05:28:46 <Sgeo> Well, to match my intuitions, I want |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi| = 2a - |ai+b|
05:29:10 <zzo38> Of course for security purposes it should not be allowed in non-local PAC files
05:29:31 <Sgeo> I think I also want |a+b@| = - |a@+b|
05:30:25 <Sgeo> Well the latter is a good restriction we can push any definition against
05:31:25 <Sgeo> |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi| = - |a@+b| = -2b + |ai+b| ?
05:31:40 <Sgeo> 2a - |a+bi| = -2b + |ai + b| ?
05:31:58 <Sgeo> Assuming a and b are real, that's a question that doesn't involve @ at all, which is nice
05:34:13 <Sgeo> 2a + 2b = |a+bi| + |ai + b|; Uh I have no idea how to proceed from here
05:35:25 <Sgeo> a=1; 2 = 1 + |i| = 2.
05:35:34 <Sgeo> For a second I forgot that a was 1 and thought it was 2
05:39:00 <zzo38> The other way around should also be allowed; if you want to connect to a insecure server (of any protocol) using a CONNECT proxy that should be allowed too
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05:47:11 <zzo38> Maybe if I can set the ALLOWS_PROXY_HTTP flag on the "https:" scheme will that allow it to work how I wanted it to work?
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05:59:30 <Sgeo> Maybe numbers of the form a + bi + c@ + di@ are just 4-dimensional?
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06:05:35 <Sgeo> Let @1 and @2 be two different numbers. |a + b@1| = |a| - |b|; |a + b@2| = 2a - |a + bi|; |a + x@1| = |a + @2|; |a| - |x| = 2a - |a + i|; |x| - |a| = |a + i| - 2a; |x| = |a + i| + |a|; Guess not. Was speculating that maybe the definitions just resulted in subtly different @ values along the same dimension
06:07:52 <Sgeo> I think though that this suggests that both definitions might be reasonable?
06:11:32 <Sgeo> |x + y@| = 0; 2x - |x + yi| = 0; Wolfram Alpha hates this, how about 2x - sqrt(x^2 + y^2) = 0? Wow this is stunningly boring: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2x+-+sqrt%28x%5E2+%2B+y%5E2%29+%3D+0
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06:46:36 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: So out of curiosity, how is defining a variable such that |x|=-1 different from defining a variable such that, for example, x+y!=y+x?
06:48:53 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], redefining |x| will likely break less stuff (this is different from the 'poetic' way of defining a variable x such that |x|=-1 because absolute value is defined to be positive. Making a similar but not same operation as abs and calling it abs isn't so impossible. Doing that for equality or addition would likely result in an operation that behaved significantly differently from equality or addition)
06:49:15 <Sgeo> Incidentally, depending on what you mean by *, a*b isn't always b*a
06:49:34 <Sgeo> If a and b are quaternions, the way multiplication is defined on them the order makes a difference
06:50:38 <hppavilion[1]> So how's it work for sedenions? Do they not even satisfy closure? xD
06:52:21 <hppavilion[1]> You /do/ realize hppavilion[1] is a pythonic array index, correct?
06:52:49 <hppavilion[1]> Isn't closure the property that if you perform multiplication/addition on two numbers of the same type, they come out to the same type of number?
06:53:21 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], was slightly unfamiliar with the term, I'm not a professional mathematician
06:53:40 <Sgeo> I think I would have recognized "closed over operation" more readily
06:54:10 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not a professional mathematician eihter, just a guy who reads too much wikipedia on mathxD
06:59:56 <zzo38> I also am not a real mathematician but I like to study many mathematical thing in Wikipedia and in the book and my own stuff by myself
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07:21:26 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think you haven't regenerated the image preview of the fontdemo
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07:54:06 <Taneb> zzo38: I am not sure where the line is between not a real mathematician and a real mathematician
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08:16:18 <blurelIse> once you lose that, you're just a numerologist
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08:31:26 <zzo38> I do not belong to any university and have never been published in a mathematical journal, therefore I must be not quite a real mathematician
08:32:02 <blurelIse> i got published on oeis, but im also not a real mathematician
08:33:32 <blurelIse> then again idk if thats really considered being published
08:47:27 <b_jonas> By the way, the title of the latest OOTS strip (1006) is "Uninterrupted Torment", which sounds like it should be a M:tG card name.
08:47:50 <b_jonas> There's "Everlasting Torment" and "Neverending Torment"
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09:21:32 <b_jonas> Why the heck does the new mulligan rule and reminders about it on http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles don't have a reminder text about "scry"? I mean, I know it's in Theros and Magic Origins, but it's not an evergreen mechanic, and won't appear in all sets. They should add a reminder text.
09:23:14 <b_jonas> Oh, good! Apparently the actual text that goes to the Comp Rules will not say "scry", it will spell out the action.
09:23:21 <b_jonas> It's only the announcements that are stupid.
09:24:33 <b_jonas> And the comp rules also makes it clear when exactly you scry, namely after everyone has kept their opening hand, but before other turn zero actions.
09:30:35 <b_jonas> The comp rules update bulletin isn't up yet though.
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10:38:32 <fizzie> Welp, that was a new kind of personal conveyance device for me. It looked like a segway without the stick. Or a skateboard with two big wheels on either ends, except perpendicular.
10:39:06 <Taneb> I think I've seen some like that
10:41:29 <fizzie> "if (*p_state == BORED) { free(boredom); *p_state = be_challenged(); } says an ad on this train.
10:42:06 <myname> so, be_challenged returns an enum
10:44:37 <fizzie> I already switched trains, so I can't be sure if they assigned p_state or *p_state.
10:44:55 <Taneb> fizzie: I think that could lead to things going wrong
10:45:01 <Taneb> Possibly even segfaults!
10:46:27 <fizzie> It was for these guys http://www.cambridgeconsultants.com/
10:46:41 <Taneb> Oh! I know someone who used to work for them
10:47:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44380&oldid=42799 * Martin Büttner * (+911)
10:47:52 <myname> Taneb: doing marketing?
10:48:02 <Taneb> Software, probably
10:48:48 <ais523> those "let's make our advert look like code" things often have code that couldn't possibly work
10:49:02 <ais523> also, what sort of variable name is "p_state"?
10:50:03 <Taneb> ais523: the state of the peas
10:52:09 <boily> "free(boredom)" in a conditional block is dubious at best.
10:52:52 <myname> maybe be-challenged does something with it. but it has to be global then
10:53:04 <ais523> it could be that p_state is tracking the allocation status of boredom?
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10:54:01 <myname> in that case, calling a function and rely on that may not be the best idea
10:54:53 <Taneb> Maybe be_challenged does other things
10:55:15 <Jafet> It's true that programming in C is a very exciting and challenging activity.
10:55:30 <Taneb> Like, I don't know, chooses a random activity and returns that
10:55:37 <myname> if p_state keeps track of the allocation status, it should do the if itself
10:59:13 <Jafet> On that note, someone should make an esolang out of defect report 260
10:59:18 <Jafet> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_260.htm
11:01:39 <ais523> I love the way they use (free) just in case free is a macro
11:02:36 <ais523> it probably doesn't, but I like it anyway
11:02:58 <ais523> Jafet: fwiw, some compilers have been caught comparing two pointers as equal, but having assignments through one not affect the value readable through the other
11:03:25 <b_jonas> ais523: is that when they compare only offset values? I think that's sometimes even valid
11:04:33 <Taneb> Would that let them become Turing complete through the back door?
11:04:33 <ais523> the code is something like: x = malloc(sizeof *x); free(x); y = malloc(sizeof *x); if (x == y) { *x = 1; *y = 2; printf("%d", *x); }
11:04:53 <ais523> on some versions of clang
11:05:04 <ais523> (add declarations, main, etc. to produce a complete program)
11:06:33 <Taneb> That's undefined behaviour I think
11:06:34 <b_jonas> ais523: uh... ok, dunno, I'll leave the language lawyers to figure out how they have to write those kinds of rules
11:06:58 <ais523> b_jonas: Jafet's link is about this
11:07:07 <ais523> (language lawyers discussing this situation)
11:07:16 <Jafet> Taneb: since x and y have identical values, why is it any less defined than using y only?
11:07:19 <b_jonas> yes, I know. I think I'd rather not go into this.
11:07:20 <ais523> Taneb: it is indeed undefined behaviour, but some people are surprised by the way that clang happens to interpret it
11:07:33 <Taneb> Jafet: I didn't say it was unsurprising
11:07:37 <b_jonas> The crazy unions and memcpys were enough for me as for C magic.
11:08:18 <ais523> the official standards response about this sort of thing was: "The C Standard lays down no requirement that two inspections of the bits representing a given value will observe the same bit-pattern only that the observed pattern on each occasion will be a valid representation of the value."
11:08:43 <ais523> it was a bit longer, actually
11:08:59 <ais523> the official explanation seems to be that as x is a pointer to freed memory, its actual value is allowed to change spontaneously
11:09:48 <ais523> (i.e. x itself can change spontaneously, in addition to *x)
11:10:36 <b_jonas> ais523: right. this is the strange kind of thing where if you write (in a function scope) int x; int y = x; that might cause undefined behaviour because x is uninitialized and can be of a trap value and even copying that trap value can cause UB
11:10:53 <Jafet> Well, since x gets an unspecified value, *x is undefined
11:10:54 <ais523> b_jonas: and Itanium is one platform where that actually happens
11:11:03 <b_jonas> because it's such a strange value that, like, even reading it into a register can be a problem, or the electrons are not cleaned up, or something?
11:11:20 <b_jonas> ais523: um, what happens excatly?
11:11:26 <Jafet> The B5000 was a CPU where you'd get this regularly, I believe
11:11:37 <Jafet> It had only one native type, double precision floating point
11:11:38 <ais523> b_jonas: so on Itanium, fetching a memory address can give you a deferred exception
11:11:47 <Jafet> And all other types were defined to be subsets of it
11:12:01 <ais523> and then attempting to read the register that you were trying to store the value in sets off the actual exception
11:12:20 <fizzie> ais523: I think it's a pState that's been turned from camelCase to under_scores.
11:12:26 <b_jonas> ais523: um, but it's not permitted in C if you read a char, or an unsigned char, which is why memcpy works on even an uninitialized area (it conceptually copies chars or something similar, though the implementation may of course do whatever)
11:12:27 <ais523> so suppose the previous function did something like «if (x) {printf("%d", *x);}»
11:12:48 <b_jonas> ais523: um, "fetching a memory address" can sure be bda if you're reading through a wrong pointer
11:12:59 <ais523> on Itanium, the usual implementation would be to load x /before/ the test
11:13:08 <b_jonas> ais523: but here the address is valid, x is a local variable. reading it bytewise would be ok in C.
11:13:09 <ais523> specifying a deferred exception
11:13:26 <b_jonas> oh, you mean through pointers.
11:13:29 <ais523> now, suppose you call into a new function, and it chooses the same /register/ for x
11:13:40 <ais523> attempting to do anything with x, other than assigning a new value to it, will cause the null pointer exception to happen
11:13:58 <ais523> err, suppose it chooses the register for x that it previously chose for *x
11:14:22 <ais523> if x happens to be stored in memory (very unlikely for a local variable on Itanium) the problem couldn't happen
11:14:41 <ais523> which is why any argument involving pointers to x will miss the point (because that would force it into memory)
11:15:03 <b_jonas> well, for this simple code, int x; int y = x; with nothing between, the compiler will probably see what you're doing rightaway.
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11:16:56 <ais523> I'd be surprised if a compiler looked at that code and thought "hmm, I need to force x into memory"
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11:19:21 <Jafet> b_jonas: yes, it will see undefined behaviour and optimise out all code that follows after that
11:19:37 <ais523> ah right, the gcc approach to UB
11:19:46 <Jafet> https://people.csail.mit.edu/nickolai/papers/wang-undef-2012-08-21.pdf
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11:23:16 <b_jonas> Jafet: and possibly give a warning, unless it can prove the code unreachable anyway
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12:59:00 <b_jonas> Hehe, hilarious bug: http://meta.stackexchange.com/q/266830/222298
13:00:16 <b_jonas> it's a security bug where typing a particular magic sequence in a chat room on chat.meta.stackexchange.com notifies everyone who has been in the chatroom the last seven days in their SE-wide inbox.
13:00:37 <b_jonas> you're supposed to be able to notify only a particular user you name in a chat message normally
13:00:48 <b_jonas> S1: no idea, the SE employees are debugging it right now
13:00:56 <ais523> b_jonas: why would you link to a 404 page? you can't find useful information via it
13:01:04 <b_jonas> ais523: it wasn't 404 yet when I linked
13:01:10 <b_jonas> got deleted quickly because people would abuse it
13:01:17 <b_jonas> it includes the actual character sequence
13:01:42 <b_jonas> (or you may have a high enough rep on meta to be able to view a "deleted" question)
13:01:50 <ais523> hmm, like the sequence of 12 characters that crashes Chrome? (when you try to visit it as an URL or mousehover over an anchor that links to it like an URL)
13:03:15 <ais523> I'm trying to remember what the sequence is, now
13:03:18 <S1> ais523: Which one was that? (the 12 char sequence)
13:03:23 <ais523> I tried it in Chromium and it acted oddly but didn't crash
13:03:24 <b_jonas> um, I mean the one that pings people on SE chat
13:03:32 <b_jonas> I don't know about the Chromium one
13:03:55 <ais523> IIRC it was something like http:// and a NUL byte, double-URL-encoded
13:04:09 <ais523> but the second layer of URL encoding didn't encode all the characters, just some of them
13:04:22 <ais523> that probably narrows it down to enough possibilities to find it by brute force
13:04:40 <b_jonas> they probably fixed that since
13:04:42 <ais523> http://%%30%30 perhaps, although that's 14
13:05:01 <ais523> b_jonas: well the bug was reportedly with Chrome, and I tried it in Chromium just after it became public and didn't get a crash
13:06:16 <b_jonas> dunno, this reminds me to the very old bug around windows 95 where in MSIE following a link to file://C|/con/con would hang the machine. that was back when any external webpage could just have a clickable link to the file:// protocol
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13:06:51 <b_jonas> but then, windows 95 had tons of similar easy bugs, including ones much easier to exploit, like packets that crashed the networking system
13:07:15 <ais523> b_jonas: in IE 4 I created a recursive frameset once
13:07:22 <b_jonas> "will undelete when I've pushed the fix" says an admin, so my link will be valid
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13:07:38 <ais523> which crashed Explorer (not just IE; Explorer's the process that handles the desktop, Start menu, etc.)
13:07:56 -!- vladmir_lenin has changed nick to bender.
13:08:03 <ais523> given that ctrl-alt-delete was disabled on the computers I tested it on, doing anything from there (including logging out) became quite awkward
13:11:28 <b_jonas> ais523: that was on what operating system?
13:11:43 <ais523> I assume Windows 95, not sure though
13:12:22 <b_jonas> on windows 95, such a bug would probably leave the whole system unstable because not enough memory protection separating the processes.
13:12:36 <b_jonas> it would possibly just crash the whole system.
13:13:01 <b_jonas> on windows 98, I think you'd just press control-escape to launch the task manager (if explorer isn't running), and restart explorer from there.
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16:32:31 <tswett> Y'know, for the most part, it should be possible to play Magic over IRC.
16:32:44 <tswett> As long as the players trust each other.
16:33:34 <tswett> I can only think of one effect that wouldn't work, and that's looking at your opponent's library.
16:45:22 <zzo38> With proper program to do the stuff you could implement it even without as much trusting each other as normal, and allow looking in opponent's library
16:49:06 <ais523> tswett: looking at face-down exiled cards your opponent controls
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16:53:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Main article]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44381 * Hppavilion1 * (+28) Created Template
16:55:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44382&oldid=44379 * Hppavilion1 * (+249) Main article
16:55:54 <tswett> I just did a solo test run of this deck.
16:55:55 <tswett> I was able to kill a passive opponent in only 14 turns.
16:55:55 <tswett> Woulda been nice if I hadn't missed the first four land drops.
16:57:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44383&oldid=44382 * Hppavilion1 * (-79) Removed an accidentally inserted raw link
17:00:18 <tswett> I haven't been keeping track of game lengths. I think killing your opponent on turn 4 is pretty good.
17:00:44 <tswett> Not defeating your opponent until turn 14 is reasonable if you're playing a highly defensive deck.
17:01:06 <tswett> Assuming that your opponent actually does something, which my imaginary opponent was not.
17:01:10 <tswett> And this is supposed to be a highly aggressive deck.
17:01:19 <tswett> I really shoulda taken a mulligan.
17:01:21 <ais523> tswett: turn 14 goldfish is /not/ good if you're anything other than a control deck
17:02:15 <ais523> the accepted turncount for a goldfish is 4 in Modern and 3 in Legacy, typically around 5 or 6 in Standard but it's just about to get shaken up so who knows
17:02:47 <ais523> where this doesn't necessarily mean winning, but rather doing something that would place you clearly in control of the game against a real opponent (winning is one way to do this but there are others)
17:02:56 <tswett> So maybe I should aim for 4 or 5 for the goldfish.
17:03:42 <tswett> Let's redo that goldfish.
17:04:16 <ais523> remember that the mulligan rule changes in a few days' time
17:04:21 <ais523> you should probably be testing with the new one
17:11:29 <tswett> That time I made it on turn 6. Much better, but this still kinda felt weak.
17:13:53 <tswett> I wonder what happens if I just make a deck entirely out of creatures with mana cost no more than 3.
17:14:23 <ais523> tswett: a typical creature aggro deck has most of its creatures at mana cost 1 or 2
17:14:31 <ais523> or other way to end the game
17:14:31 <zzo38> You should need some mana source too
17:14:35 <ais523> they tend to be red, as a result
17:15:11 <ais523> the white version has nearly all its creatures at converted mana cost 2, takes a little longer to win, and tries to pick creature abilities to slow down the opponent
17:18:47 <tswett> It might be a good idea to put in a mountain or two.
17:21:20 <tswett> Now, Flooded Strand says, "T, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Flooded Strand: Search your library for a Plains or Island card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library."
17:21:30 <ais523> 23 is the accepted number for most monocolor decks, but pure aggro decks can go with less
17:21:40 <ais523> I think 19 is quite common? maybe 20
17:21:58 <tswett> Tranquil Cove says, "Tranquil Cove enters the battlefield tapped. When Tranquil Cove enters the battlefield, you gain 1 life. T: Add W or U to your mana pool."
17:22:36 <tswett> It seems to me like Flooded Strand has several disadvantages; the only advantage is that you can get one mana the same turn that you play it.
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17:22:50 <tswett> Yet Flooded Strand is much much more expensive than Tranquil Cove.
17:23:06 <tswett> Is Flooded Strand in fact significantly better than Tranquil Cove?
17:23:06 <hppavilion[1]> I think I've invented a programming language that requires a supercomputer of Googlic proportions (or at least a high-end beowulf cluster) to make it work well and fast
17:23:09 <shachaf> Flooded Strand is way better.
17:23:16 <ais523> tswett: it is, and for three reasons
17:23:33 <ais523> a) flooded strand gives you mana immediately, which in tempo-driven formats is important
17:24:37 <ais523> b) flooded strand gets a plains or island, not a /basic/ plains or island; thus, if you have appropriate dual lands in your deck, it produces two colours, and you get a free choice of one and a choice from two of the other (i.e. 7 of the 10 pairs)
17:25:03 <ais523> c) flooded strand is part of a number of combos, some of which define legacy (most of them rely on either the fact that it puts a card in your graveyard, or the fact that it shuffles your library)
17:25:18 <ais523> (although some of the combos in standard rely on the fact that it puts two lands into play on the same turn)
17:25:28 <ais523> there aer a few combos with tranquil cove but they have a much lower power level
17:26:12 <ais523> fetchland (i.e. flooded strand and friends) + brainstorm is found in a very high proportion of legacy decks
17:26:15 <ais523> basically all the ones that run blue
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17:26:47 <hppavilion[1]> I think Analogy:Simile is going to run on neural networks
17:27:04 <hppavilion[1]> It will use R-like data handling properties to detect correlations
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17:27:55 <hppavilion[1]> A file will be a renamed .tar.gz archive containing a "<filename>.ats" file which would be the main file and a "meta.zfg" or something that would define the properties of the neural network
17:31:06 <tswett> So if my deck has some Plateaus, some Savannahs, some Scrublands, some Tropical Islands, some Tundras, some Underground Seas, and some Volcanic Islands, then Flooded Strand will easily let me get any type of mana.
17:32:34 <tswett> Of course, each of those would cost me about seventy bucks.
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17:51:18 <tswett> Okay, lemme try out this funky reduced deck.
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17:59:39 <tswett> Turn 6 goldfish, turn 9 goldfish, turn 6 goldfish, turn 6 goldfish, turn 6 goldfish.
17:59:55 <ais523> that… is still not very good, if it's using the entire set of all cards ever
18:00:05 <tswett> I mean, it's Standard.
18:00:13 <tswett> But I think that's still not very good.
18:00:38 <tswett> Well, you did say 5 or 6 for a goldfish.
18:00:51 <tswett> Given that this is aggro, presumably I'd want to average 5 or under.
18:01:42 <tswett> Lemme look for things I might want to add...
18:02:28 <zzo38> One kind of card to make up might be: Fateseal 1, and then target opponent draws a card.
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18:03:03 <ais523> zzo38: a) that isn't strong; b) Wizards refuse to print fateseal nowadays on the basis that people don't like playing against it
18:05:52 <zzo38> I know it isn't very strong, but if the mana cost is low enough then it does not have to be, and/or if it is usable more than once possibly (costing "{1U}, {T}" on an artifact or land or whatever)
18:06:20 <ais523> zzo38: I think the mana cost would have to be about -3 before that was usable
18:06:35 <ais523> actually it's probably usable at -2
18:06:40 <ais523> some decks would want that, most wouldn't
18:08:11 <zzo38> It is overpowered at a negative cost; the minimum possible cost should be {0}
18:08:29 <ais523> zzo38: have you seen Simian Spirit Guide?
18:08:33 <ais523> that sort-of has a cost of {-R}
18:08:44 <ais523> and even then has an alternate mode of casting
18:08:47 <tswett> Oh, that's a cute name. Goblin Kaboomist.
18:08:52 <ais523> there are a few decks that use it, most don't want that effect though
18:09:53 <zzo38> ais523: I have seen it, that is a bit different.
18:10:18 <zzo38> You can earn mana or summon a creature, not both.
18:10:19 <shachaf> "As an addition cost to cast ~, add {U} to your mana pool."
18:11:28 <ais523> however basically nobody summons a creature with the card outside Limited
18:11:39 <shachaf> In theory costs can be anything, I suppose.
18:11:42 <ais523> it's basically a card that does nothing for {-R}, and has an alternative mode of paying {2}{R} for a 2/2
18:11:59 <shachaf> whoa, http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122123
18:12:11 <ais523> shachaf: it'd help if you stated the card's name rather than just the link
18:12:18 <ais523> so I can know what card it is without having to wait for Gatherer to load
18:12:30 <ais523> only works during your upkeep
18:12:39 <tswett> "As an additional cost to play this card, you win the game."
18:12:39 <ais523> that said, I'd still love to see someone break that card
18:12:44 <shachaf> Sometimes Gatherer links have a name rather than a multiverseid.
18:12:45 <ais523> but the timing restriction makes it difficult
18:13:00 <tswett> Countering it doesn't work; you win the game before your opponent gets priority.
18:13:50 <zzo38> I would *definitely* play the card I just mentioned at a cost of -2; I think that is way too small and at {0} it would be good as an instant. (Forcing opponent to draw card if it cannot be used as an instant isn't quite as good)
18:16:27 <shachaf> Looking at cards like http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Adarkar+Unicorn I have to remember that mana burn used to exist.
18:17:06 <shachaf> And, for that matter, I guess it existed for Braid of Fire too.
18:17:28 <tswett> Ah yes. Mana abilities that you can play as an interrupt.
18:18:24 <ais523> shachaf: Braid of Fire was in standard at the same time as storage lands, which conveniently have an ability that becomes "{1}: add {0} to your mana pool" if played with X=0
18:18:31 <zzo38> That was when they had interrupt; all mana abilities were interrupts, on lands they were implicitly interrupts I think but on other cards they are not implicitly interrupts
18:18:51 <ais523> interrupts left before Braid of Fire arrived by a /long/ way, though
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18:19:02 <ais523> (Coldsnap may be part of Ice Age block, but it was released much later and retconned in)
18:19:45 <shachaf> Hmm, there are some interesting cumulative upkeeps out there.
18:19:48 <shachaf> http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Herald+of+Leshrac
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18:20:02 <tswett> Ah, an early version of the mana ability rule: "Adding mana to your mana pool is always considered an interrupt."
18:20:26 <ais523> shachaf: that's one of my favourites
18:20:50 <ais523> hmm, the one with "cumulative upkeep: target opponent gains one life" seems like it'd be really good in Commander, which is all about politics
18:23:47 <tswett> And don't forget this:
18:23:49 <tswett> "By mutual consent, players may agree not to play for ante. This is recommended until you get a feel for the game."
18:25:35 <zzo38> Is there a copy of the old rules on the computer? I would find it very useful for use with old Magic: the Puzzling
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18:26:23 <tswett> http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/jc20 - the original rules
18:26:54 <shachaf> http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Reality+Twist
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18:33:08 <zzo38> Is there a copy of the Fourth Edition rules though?
18:33:42 <tswett> Is there such a thing as mana that can be used for any color?
18:34:46 <hppavilion[1]> One that uses plenty of instrucitons, but makes very short programs
18:35:47 <ais523> tswett: no, cards tend to generate mana of any color instead
18:35:54 <ais523> (i.e. it can only be used for one color but you can choose which)
18:36:31 <tswett> I guess a card could say, "Add 1 to your mana pool. You may spend this mana as if it were mana of any color."
18:36:51 <shachaf> There is e.g. http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Celestial+Dawn
18:37:17 <shachaf> Please don't paste that much text in the channel. :-(
18:37:30 <ais523> and yes, I was going to mention Celestial Dawn too, except that I couldn't remember what it was called
18:38:36 <shachaf> There are a few other cards with similar effects.
18:42:27 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you could have put it all on one line
18:43:08 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I could've, but that would've been hard to read
18:43:39 <ais523> no, it would have been easier to read
18:43:56 <ais523> true = 1 == 1; false = 1 != 1; if (true != false) { x = 5; } else { x = 4 }
18:44:13 <ais523> because it doesn't have a bunch of repeats of your nick in the middle
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18:46:13 -!- wentgoat10^2 has changed nick to nortti.
18:46:23 -!- heddwch has changed nick to gonegoat^16.
18:46:26 -!- gonegoat^16 has changed nick to heddwch.
18:49:54 <tswett> Goldfish turn 6, goldfish turn 6, goldfish turn 6, goldfish turn 5, goldfish turn 6.
18:50:01 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: probably related to a different channel
18:50:09 <ais523> nicks are global, but nick jokes are often local
18:50:14 <tswett> At least it seems decently consistent.
18:50:29 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I mean the fact that it's easier to read on one line
18:50:37 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: this is usually the case in IRC
18:50:43 <ais523> the bots tend to output as one line for that reason
18:51:01 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
18:51:04 <tswett> By the way, I disavow that code.
18:51:15 <tswett> I wrote it using echo and sed.
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18:57:39 <tswett> Yet another revision...
19:03:19 <shachaf> "Cumulative upkeep -- Place an age counter on ~"
19:11:13 <tswett> Goldfish turn 6, goldfish turn 5, goldfish turn 5, goldfish turn 5, goldfish turn 6.
19:11:36 <tswett> This is actually starting to feel kinda decent.
19:12:13 <ais523> would anything interact with the age counters?
19:12:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44384&oldid=44380 * SuperJedi224 * (+119) /* Syntax highlighting. */
19:12:36 <shachaf> Some enchantments add cumulative upkeep to an existing card.
19:12:44 <shachaf> But mostly with negative effects, I think.
19:16:21 <zzo38> I made up one card that adds "cumulative upkeep {0}" to the enchanted permanent
19:18:59 <tswett> I would expect the rules to say that multiple instances of cumulative upkeep don't result in multiple age counters being added each upkeep step.
19:19:42 <zzo38> You do add multiple age counters
19:20:06 <zzo38> Example 702.23b explicitly says so.
19:21:34 <tswett> So now I guess the question is if I can add anything to this deck to make it even faster.
19:23:04 <mauris> hmmm, Rust looks sort of neat but i don't know where to start / what to write in it that's especially Rust-y :(
19:23:24 <tswett> I wrote an operating system in Rust.
19:23:30 <tswett> It's not very good. It has two features.
19:24:54 <tswett> If I do want to win the game in about five or six turns, I guess things with a CMC of 5 or 6 aren't going to be especially useful.
19:25:20 <b_jonas> oh, you're talking about crazy M:tG stuff
19:26:30 <ais523> there are "midrange" decks nowadays which aim to block smaller creatures and go over the top of the aggro decks
19:26:44 <ais523> and they're rapidly becoming the most popular sort of deck, mostly because Wizards keeps nerfing everything else
19:26:54 <b_jonas> ais523: the latest OotS strip has the title "Uninterrupted Torment". that sounded like it has to be an M:tG card name, so I checked. it's not, but "Everlasting Torment" and "Neverending Torment" are.
19:27:05 <tswett> Doink. I wonder why this Gatherer search isn't giving me anything:
19:27:07 <tswett> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&format=+[%22Standard%22]&color=+[R]|[C]&type=+![%22Creature%22]
19:27:31 <HackEgo> [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+003D EQUALS SIGN] [U+002B PLUS SIGN]
19:27:59 <tswett> I wonder why my client decided that the second equals sign in that URL is the first character after the URL.
19:28:14 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering making my λ-calculus tool not allow you to type syntactically invalid λ-expressions
19:28:32 <mauris> tswett: oh, that sounds like something it'd be good at
19:28:40 <mauris> maybe i should emulate a gameboy or something
19:28:50 <hppavilion[1]> But that might break workflow and force workarounds when you wnat to insert something
19:29:05 <mauris> (that actually sounds like a ton of work, how do people stand to write emulators)
19:29:09 <b_jonas> “<tswett> I was able to kill a passive opponent in only 14 turns.” … that's bad.
19:29:16 <zzo38> Possibly Famicom might be easier
19:29:28 <zzo38> Or make an implementation of QUACKVM, which is far simpler
19:29:33 <mauris> hppavilion[1]: don't do that IMO
19:29:52 <ais523> tswett: the advanced search actually seems to be broken
19:29:58 <ais523> it's generating malformed search URLs
19:30:10 <ais523> that said, try changing your "R" and "C" to "Red" and "Colorless", in quotes
19:30:19 <ais523> it might help, as that seems to be what it was trying to generate
19:30:21 <tswett> This works: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&format=+[%22Standard%22]&color=|[R]|[C]&type=+![%22Creature%22]
19:30:33 <b_jonas> “<tswett> I wonder what happens if I just make a deck entirely out of creatures with mana cost no more than 3.” – I hear such decks can be good these days. wait, what format are you building for?
19:30:38 <zzo38> There are many problems with the searching function in Gatherer; only very simple things work
19:30:43 <tswett> The expression has to contain |[R]|[C] instead of &[R]|[C].
19:30:45 <mauris> hppavilion[1]: (pretty much for the reason you mentioned)
19:31:08 <zzo38> Make a SQLite database of it and then use that to search instead
19:31:24 <ais523> b_jonas: is this standard as of now, or standard as of a couple of weeks from now?
19:31:28 <ais523> most people are focusing on the latter
19:31:44 <tswett> The intersection of the two.
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19:39:19 <b_jonas> Ok, about M:tG, I was wondering on a particular effect red has, namely when it puts a creature of your choice from your hand onto the battlefield with haste, but temporarily, so you {sacrifice, exile, bounce, destroy etc} it {at the end of turn, at end of combat, your next upkeep, some other specified time}.
19:39:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sclipting]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44385&oldid=41647 * Timwi * (+0) oops
19:39:46 <b_jonas> I thought this was sort of an expensive but staple effect that was done often on red cards. It turns out no. Only about three cards do it: Through the Breach, Sneak Attack, and about one more.
19:40:10 <b_jonas> Then M:tG people explained to me that this is no longer done because it's no longer fun when Emrakul is in the same format.
19:40:37 <b_jonas> So I was wondering, could this be done but limited to creature cards with converted mana cost 3 or less?
19:40:43 <b_jonas> And if so, how much would it have to cost?
19:40:54 <ais523> my guess is yes, and 2 or 3
19:41:03 <b_jonas> For comparison, there's still Elvish Piper and a similar card with a piper effect in M12
19:41:13 <b_jonas> those don't give haste but aren't for one turn only
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19:42:41 <hppavilion[1]> Finished the test. 100%. He graded it with an app on his phone. My mind is blown.
19:43:12 <b_jonas> The M12 card is Quicksilver Amulet
19:43:36 <b_jonas> It's like a colorless Elvish Piper
19:44:38 <b_jonas> ais523: as an instant? or a repeatable activated ability on a permanent?
19:44:56 <ais523> b_jonas: was thinking the activation on an enchantment
19:45:05 <ais523> the activation and the enchantment itself would likely have similar costs
19:45:20 <b_jonas> Wait, _enchantment_? That's hard because you don't want to put a {T} cost on it
19:45:37 <ais523> I didn't want to put a {T} cost on it
19:45:38 <b_jonas> though it might not be a big problem if it consumes a card
19:46:05 <ais523> note that a card that gives all your creatures haste is pretty cheap (probably about {1}{R} nowadays), and giving them haste but exiling them at end of turn is normally worse
19:46:35 <Taneb> Are there any known undecidable states for MtG? Like StackFlow intends to create
19:47:22 <tswett> Taneb: I believe so. IIRC, someone implemented a Turing machine in Magic.
19:47:40 <Taneb> tswett: iirc that relied on the players making decisions
19:47:47 <Taneb> A player could always choose to end the cycle
19:48:02 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, ais523 has a construction of a Turing machine, with a small but probably fixable bug
19:48:13 <b_jonas> tswett: and it's documented on the esowiki
19:48:25 <ais523> b_jonas: that is StackFlow
19:48:51 <Taneb> I mean, is there one without the bug
19:48:51 <ais523> Taneb: the StackFlow construction isn't meant to provide any opportunity to make decisions (you get priority but with an empty hand and no activatable abilities; I even blew up all the lands)
19:48:52 <b_jonas> Oh whatever. You don't want efficiency, there's probably a translation.
19:49:07 <ais523> but there's a bug in it where two abilities stack at the same time and you can choose which order to stack them in and it makes a difference
19:49:14 <b_jonas> Taneb: if you want one without a bug, go and fix it somehow.
19:49:19 <b_jonas> It's probably a fixable bug.
19:49:24 <Taneb> b_jonas: I don't know magic well enough
19:49:37 <tswett> "Hot Soup" is weird, flavor-wise.
19:53:14 <ais523> it was apparently designed entirely based on the flavour
19:53:26 <ais523> which makes me think it's a reference to something I'm unaware of
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19:55:26 <tswett> One doesn't normally think of hot soup as a type of artifact, weapon, or equipment.
19:55:41 <b_jonas> the creature is holding something dangerous (a vat of hot oil, a double-edged sword, a weird bomb that can explode any time, it's called "hot soup" here), whcih is not only dangerous but also scary, so you don't want to block it. but he's holding something that will explode in his own face easily.
19:55:47 <tswett> Wait, I get it—yeah, that.
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19:56:00 <b_jonas> tswett: what? why not, hot oil is a weapon
19:56:12 <tswett> Yeah, but it doesn't say "hot oil".
19:56:13 <b_jonas> they use it to defend castles all the time in stories
19:56:23 <b_jonas> hot soup is the goblin version
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19:57:32 <tswett> Yeah, I think I'm getting it.
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19:58:45 <tswett> I can't shake the intuition that adding cards to a deck will make it stronger.
20:01:56 <tswett> Since this deck has 210 cards, it must be unbeatable.
20:02:37 <b_jonas> tswett: 210 cards? that's scary. what deck is it and what format?
20:02:54 <b_jonas> tswett: is it Battle of Wits combo?
20:03:06 <tswett> I'm going to get rid of all but 60 later.
20:03:11 <b_jonas> because that's about the only excuse to play such a large deck
20:03:29 <b_jonas> even in formats with 100 card minimum deck size
20:03:50 <b_jonas> oh, except in crazy formats where people draw from a shared cube deck, not separate libraries
20:04:24 <b_jonas> (they draw either from the shared deck or a basic land of their choice, to be more precise)
20:05:55 <tswett> Don't forget Prismatic.
20:06:03 <hppavilion[1]> Got my λ-calculus GUI working. It now will insert λ on backslash, optionally prevent you from making syntax errors, and on <Control-r> it executes the script and opens a second (non-editable) text area that has the evaluated output in it (though evaluation currently just returns the raw lexed script)
20:06:13 <b_jonas> tswett: what's Prismatic again?
20:06:42 <ais523> b_jonas: six cards of each colour, one with each CMC from 1 to 6, plus a few other things which I forget
20:06:49 <ais523> probably colorless cards and land
20:06:55 <b_jonas> ais523: oh right. I haven't heared of that for a long while.
20:07:04 <ais523> I don't think anyone really plays it any more
20:07:09 <ais523> the people who liked it mostly play Commander now
20:07:11 <myname> hppavilion[1]: when evaluation is ready, go try the Y
20:07:13 <tswett> Deck must be at least 250 cards, and must contain 20 cards of each color; multicolored cards count as one color of your choice.
20:07:21 <tswett> http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/rules/prismatic
20:07:28 <ais523> maybe I'm thinking of something else
20:07:32 <ais523> Prismatic Stairwell or something
20:07:51 <b_jonas> What I'd like to try is simply 60 or 100 card singleton (at most one of each non-basic card) multiplayer, without any commander or such crazy rules.
20:08:28 <tswett> I came up with a rather silly format idea.
20:08:29 <b_jonas> tswett: isn't that much easier these days with so many hybrid cards in print?
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20:08:51 <tswett> Probably. But if you were to use cards with all five colors, you'd still need 100 of them, not 20.
20:09:19 <ais523> b_jonas: 100 card singleton is a real format, which I think Wizards sanction in some cases
20:09:23 <ais523> (perhaps Magic Online?)
20:09:23 <tswett> Just like the vanilla format of your choice, except your deck must be exactly 10 cards and you're limited to one of each non-basic card.
20:09:30 <b_jonas> tswett: sure, but I could play with three colors of mana base, and use red-white and red-green hybrid cards to cover the 20 red cards, withut ever paying for them with red mana
20:09:36 <hppavilion[1]> The λ-calculus program supports λ-expressions and named λ-expressions (I = λx.x)
20:09:46 <b_jonas> ais523: in multiplayer, or duel?
20:09:53 <ais523> tswett: there may well be a Vintage version of that which always wins on turn 1, barring an opposing Force of Will or the like
20:09:58 <ais523> b_jonas: duel I think, not sure though
20:10:19 <tswett> Additional rule: drawing a card is always optional.
20:11:35 <b_jonas> tswett: wait, there was some such crazy format someone mentioned: your deck is five cards singleton, drawing is not optional, at game start you arrange your deck as you choose (don't shuffle) and draw a starting hand of zero.
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20:12:01 <tswett> That sounds pretty interesting.
20:12:10 <b_jonas> It's not so easy to even make a deck that can win.
20:12:18 <b_jonas> So it's like a crazy puzzle format.
20:14:10 <b_jonas> It's somewhat easier now that we have Elixir of Immortality which you can use with two lands, as opposed to the very expensive Beacons from Fifth Dawn.
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20:17:33 <b_jonas> So I think you can do Mountain, Mountain, Lava Spike, Elixir of Immortality, Lava Spike
20:17:44 <b_jonas> But that's probably not the best thing you can do
20:19:32 <b_jonas> Incidentally, Elixir of Immortality gives you 5 life, which combos with Channel+Fireball
20:21:02 <b_jonas> ais523: have you heard of this five cards arranged yet? it's an interesting puzzle to think of
20:21:07 <b_jonas> I don't know a really good solution
20:21:54 <ais523> b_jonas: I've seen similar rulesets before but maybe not that one
20:22:11 <ais523> (the one I knew was three cards, they all start in your hand, drawing from an empty library doesn't cause you to lose)
20:22:23 <ais523> most of the solutions seem to involve Black Lotus somehow
20:22:54 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, so you can take any number of turns? hmm
20:23:03 <ais523> Laboratory Maniac is another card that seems good in both formats
20:23:34 <ais523> (although if you change your Lava Spikes to Lightning Bolts, you beat at least the most basic versions of the Laboratory Maniac deck)
20:23:57 <b_jonas> ais523: but in that case, can't you just play a plains and an Elite Vanguard and attack in the next 10 turns?
20:24:35 <ais523> b_jonas: yes but that loses to most decks because they have faster ways to win
20:25:58 <ais523> or can just burn your creature
20:26:18 <ais523> btw, does your format allow sideboards?
20:26:25 <ais523> you could probably do some interesting things with Research//Development
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20:32:11 <b_jonas> also, I think your normal maximum hand size is still 7, even if your starting hand has 0 cards
20:34:43 <b_jonas> ais523: in that three card format, how about Mental Misstep, Plains, Elite Vanguard, and hope that the opponent plays a combo that the Mental Misstep disrupts completely
20:34:55 <ais523> b_jonas: that was a common sort of build, yes
20:35:21 <ais523> although the cleverer versions involved force of will and some method of winning with one card (e.g. memnite), where if you /didn't/ need the force of will the blue card was useful on its own
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20:35:43 <b_jonas> You could even play a Memnite or Dryad Arbor and two Force of Will
20:35:44 <ais523> come to think of it, something like island, fugitive wizard, daze works on similar principles
20:35:51 <ais523> but requires you to go first
20:35:58 <ais523> b_jonas: yeah but two force of will is pointless
20:36:08 <b_jonas> yeah true, one is probably enough
20:36:08 <ais523> dryad arbor is clever though
20:36:19 <b_jonas> I actually own a Dryad Arbor
20:36:59 <b_jonas> ah yes, Island and Daze is a good idea
20:37:07 <b_jonas> I knew some such counter exists
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20:40:16 <tswett> Man. What if my opponents in the tournament turn out not to be goldfish?
20:40:39 <Taneb> Then use islandwalkers
20:42:27 <Taneb> I don't own a sugar thermometer
20:42:35 <shachaf> "jamming" means "playing magic: the gathering" among other things
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20:42:47 <ais523> b_jonas: OK, if I can have duplicate cards, what about this for your format?: Black Lotus, Orim's Chant, Soul Warden, Black Lotus, Assemble the Legion
20:43:08 <Taneb> shachaf: on occasion, not much or very well
20:43:15 <Taneb> I'm trying very hard to not spend money on it
20:43:33 <shachaf> Taneb: if you come to california you can have a bunch of free jams hth
20:43:43 <Taneb> I can do the same in York
20:43:44 <ais523> the Orim's Chant beats pretty much any attempt you could make at an early combo; and Soul Warden + Assemble the Legion gives quadratically growing amount of blockers and life, thus quickly outpacing any linearly growing damage or creature strategy tou might have
20:44:19 <b_jonas> ais523: turn 5 win that works even if opponent has a blocker: Lotus Bloom, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Stifle
20:44:58 <Taneb> I do want to make that almost-guaranteed lose deck
20:44:58 <ais523> b_jonas: black lotus > lotus bloom, surely?
20:45:01 <b_jonas> is there something better than Lotus Bloom for this, that gives only two mana?
20:45:05 <ais523> or are we just banning black lotus for being absurd?
20:45:14 <b_jonas> ais523: Black Lotus is VERY expensive
20:45:22 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, but it's a hypothetical format
20:45:29 <ais523> I was assuming we wouldn't need the physical cards
20:45:30 <b_jonas> I mean, the Phyrexian Dreadnought can costs 20 dollars, it's not a cheap card
20:45:40 <ais523> just discussion over IRC
20:45:43 <b_jonas> but a Black Lotus, even the cheapest version, is very expensive
20:45:47 <ais523> I see it like BF Joust: both players submit their deck list
20:45:50 <ais523> and then we work out who wins
20:45:54 <b_jonas> well sure, for theory you could mention Black Lotus,
20:46:01 <b_jonas> but I'd prefer something that doesn't include such inaccessible cards
20:46:16 <ais523> in that case you need a banlist
20:46:38 <ais523> you could go with the Legacy banlist, or maybe (if it's about accessibility) ban the Reserved List (except nobody can remember what's on it)
20:46:52 <shachaf> It would be great if a format than bans all cards over a price threshold became popular.
20:47:03 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, Legacy ban list might work
20:47:07 <ais523> shachaf: that'd be crazy, as soon as a deck started doing well it would ban itself
20:47:22 <b_jonas> I agree, strict price ban is a bad idea
20:47:24 <Taneb> shachaf: what format do you guys play in CA?
20:47:35 <b_jonas> but still, I'd prefer not to use the power 9 for a thing like this
20:47:36 <ais523> let's do Legacy ban list then, because at least it's easy to look up and I can remember most of it
20:47:49 <Taneb> I normally play commander
20:47:56 <b_jonas> definitely don't use the Reserved list though, that list is just stupid
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20:48:21 <ais523> b_jonas: it is mostly a list of the most expensive cards, though (by design!)
20:48:21 <shachaf> Taneb: We played Jamstandard, which allowed all cards from Innistrad onward.
20:48:25 <b_jonas> Is there something instead of Lotus Bloom or Black Lotus that works here?
20:48:54 <ais523> b_jonas: how much time do you have? the time spiral cycle of storage lands can produce unlimited mana given sufficient time (might need another land to help out)
20:49:16 <b_jonas> ais523: I'd specifically like Phyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle to win in turn 4 instead of turn 5
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20:49:52 <ais523> b_jonas: this means that you have to play both spells turn 3, right?
20:50:16 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, you mean the three card format
20:50:23 <ais523> and without resorting to black lotus
20:50:38 <ais523> the three card format was basically designed around black lotus originally, but after a while they had a rolling ban list
20:50:45 <ais523> where the most popular card each week was banned for the next week
20:50:47 <b_jonas> hmm wait, Lotus Bloom lets you play in turn 4, not turn 3
20:51:03 <ais523> I can't remember what the decks were like then
20:51:17 <b_jonas> ais523: would that ban Black Lotus every other week?
20:51:26 <ais523> bans were permanent once enacted, sorry
20:51:38 <b_jonas> wouldn't you have lots of ties though?
20:51:44 <b_jonas> with only three cards per deck
20:52:03 <ais523> not normally, because most people added ways to screw up enemy strategies
20:52:20 <ais523> anyway I'm having problems playing stiflenought quickly off one card
20:52:36 <b_jonas> do any of the Leylines help in the three-card format?
20:53:02 <ais523> most of them are either hosers, or require mana
20:53:26 <b_jonas> isn't there some old card that lets you get two mana somehow?
20:53:35 <b_jonas> though probably you could get only two colorless
20:54:09 <ais523> b_jonas: there are at least two Legacy-legal lands that produce {2} (with drawbacks you don't care about)
20:54:25 <ais523> there's also a few cards that scale based on what you have in play
20:54:35 <ais523> which are kind-of useless in a 3-card format but would work for this elsewhere
20:55:12 <b_jonas> five card arrange no starting draw: “Black Lotus, Orim's Chant, Soul Warden, Black Lotus, Assemble the Legion” -- Orim's Chant is intersting, probably a very good choice, but Assemble the Legion costs five mana, so how do you play for all of this with two lotuses?
20:55:27 <ais523> there's a hilarious (tier 2 or maybe 3) Legacy deck whose perfect hand is five leylines, opalescence, serra's sanctum
20:55:41 <ais523> b_jonas: there are two possibilities
20:55:53 <ais523> if the opponent's strategy is screwed up by the orim's chant, you use that to make the opponent useless
20:55:56 <ais523> then kill them with the soul warden
20:56:02 <ais523> if it isn't, you don't cast the orim's chant at all
20:57:34 <ais523> the big problem with my assemble the legion deck is that it can't beat a laboratory maniac
20:57:50 <ais523> neither by preventing it resolving nor by killing it nor by winning first
20:58:09 <ais523> I guess maybe I should be playing some general-purpose 3-mana removal spell over orim's chant
21:02:50 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't understand why you play Soul Warden
21:03:21 <ais523> b_jonas: so that if someone is recurring lava spikes or the like
21:03:29 <b_jonas> ais523: can basic lands be banned if one becomes the most popular during the week?
21:03:32 <ais523> otherwise they might be able to burn me out before I get to 20
21:03:39 <ais523> but there are tons of substitutes
21:03:47 <ais523> e.g. Pendelhaven over Forest
21:03:50 <ais523> will work in most decks
21:04:18 <b_jonas> still, with one popular card banned, this format could get very strange after some weeks
21:04:34 <tswett> Taneb: what constitutes an "almost-guaranteed lose deck"?
21:05:07 <Taneb> I remember reading about it, some Magic blog posted an April fools joke that described a deck guaranteed to end the game on the first turn or something
21:06:23 <b_jonas> ais523: in the five card format, if you can play two Black Lotuses (that would be sick, it's restricted in Vintage afterall), then two Black Lotus, two Brain Freeze, and some defensive card
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21:07:15 <ais523> b_jonas: actually, in the five card format
21:07:19 <ais523> mill seems very, very strong
21:07:45 <ais523> a turn 3 ancestral recall on the draw outright wins, and that only costs one mana
21:07:49 <ais523> (you aim it at your opponent)
21:08:36 <Taneb> What is the 5 card format?
21:08:46 <b_jonas> ais523: doesn't win outright. wins against some decks, but not all
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21:09:06 <b_jonas> ais523: your opponent has drawn only one card yet, draws 3 for Ancestral Recall, one on his next turn
21:09:18 <ais523> hmm, now I'm reminded that there was a time where the top deck in the format (which dominated) had mill as its win condition, and could only mill finitely many cards
21:09:19 <b_jonas> yes, it sounds strong, but not an outright win
21:09:24 <ais523> so people were beating it with a deck of 600 island
21:09:43 <b_jonas> ais523: 600 island? that'd be hard to shuffle
21:09:49 <ais523> Taneb: maximum+minimum deck size 5, starting hand size 0, you can reorder your library at the start of the game
21:09:58 <ais523> b_jonas: there's some debate about whether you have to shuffle if all the cards are the same
21:10:04 <ais523> because all orderings are equally random
21:10:49 <b_jonas> I have played an infinite life deck where one of my win strategies is to just wait for about 60 turns for the opponents to mill, and reshuffle my own deck. I also have creatures, but those can be foiled by many decks.
21:11:15 <b_jonas> It's a VERY bad deck the play against, so I only played it once so far.
21:11:21 <b_jonas> I should rebuild it some time and play it again.
21:11:49 <b_jonas> Though I'd rather want to build a green-blue infinite mana deck now. I did build one but there's many new cards that make it much better now.
21:11:59 <b_jonas> It was ages ago when I built it.
21:13:11 <ais523> what do you do if the opponent has an emrakul?
21:13:25 <ais523> we should arrange a magic-over-IRC thing anyway
21:13:35 <b_jonas> ais523: found it: Seafloor Debris. Add that to Phyrexian Dreadnought and Stifle.
21:13:41 <b_jonas> I knwe there had to be such a land.
21:14:02 <ais523> no money needs spending, no copyright issues as we're just doing a play-by-play with no actual copy involved, no actual cards needed
21:14:20 <b_jonas> ais523: um, you can play with proxies in person too
21:14:24 <ais523> b_jonas: that can't create two on the same turn
21:14:24 <b_jonas> but I like the physical cards
21:14:35 <ais523> and I know you can do proxies in person but that'd be no good for playing against #esoteric people
21:14:53 <b_jonas> And even if you allow some proxies, physical non-proxy cards are nice.
21:15:01 <b_jonas> I actually like the art and flavor text and such things of cards.
21:15:12 <shachaf> In my view the picture wastes half the card space.
21:15:13 <b_jonas> (Not of all cards, sure. There are really bad ones.)
21:15:14 <ais523> oh yes, that's the reason I used to buy them (that the physical cards are nice)
21:15:22 <ais523> but not any more, Lorwyn pretty much put me off Magic for good
21:15:30 <ais523> shachaf: it's used by most top players to recognise the card across the table
21:15:35 <ais523> way easier than trying to read the name
21:15:45 <b_jonas> ais523: why, isn't half of #esoteric in finland and the other half in the UK? :-)
21:15:47 <shachaf> OK, that's true, the picture is useful as an identifier.
21:16:04 <ais523> b_jonas: but the UK is quite big
21:16:36 <b_jonas> exactly. black card with old frame and ugly pink background picture with creatures with a misshapen head, you don't have to read the text to know it's a stupid bad card.
21:17:20 <b_jonas> (it's Phyrexian Broodlings)
21:18:16 <b_jonas> If we played M:tG over IRC, I'd probably use physical cards to represent much of the state locally
21:18:19 <ais523> b_jonas: what's your opinion on Stasis? especially the art
21:18:51 <b_jonas> we could try to organize such a thing, but I haven't got a good deck built currently
21:19:16 <b_jonas> ais523: dunno, that one has very strange art. you only find that kind of thing only on old cards.
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21:20:09 <shachaf> What was that terrible card that converted mana for {3}?
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21:20:42 <b_jonas> shachaf: once? repeatably?
21:20:55 <shachaf> It was an artifact that could convert mana, or something like that.
21:21:14 <b_jonas> shachaf: artifact? not land or creature?
21:22:05 <shachaf> I might be wrong about the cost.
21:22:14 <b_jonas> I know some creatures that convert mana (without needing to tap), but not ones that need that much mana for it.
21:22:34 <b_jonas> that snake shaman guy is the most famous, because it converts any amount of mana for free
21:23:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: oh, that even requires tapping. that seems very useless.
21:24:37 <shachaf> This card is not very good.
21:24:49 <b_jonas> shachaf: I mean, for 3 you get a Darksteel Ignot or lots of similar things
21:25:01 <Taneb> Remember those neural net generated magic cards
21:25:13 <Taneb> My favourite was "You may spend (1)"
21:26:08 <b_jonas> there's Skyshroud Elf which converts _colorless_ mana to white or red for free
21:26:35 <b_jonas> what is there that converts any amount of mana to any color for free, or to a color chosen when it enters the battlefield?
21:28:13 <ais523> celestial dawn kind-of counts
21:28:32 <ais523> there's a card in return to ravnica that makes all lands produce any color of mana
21:28:37 <b_jonas> And is there something that converts any amount of mana to _green_ mana for free?
21:30:02 <b_jonas> ais523: in the sense of Chromatic Lantern, or replacing the mana they produce, or adding a trigger for additional mana like Fertile Ground?
21:30:25 <ais523> it replaces the mana they produce, IIRC
21:30:39 <ais523> probably is literally chromatic lantern, actually
21:30:51 <ais523> perhaps with misremembered details
21:31:14 <ais523> and it is in return to ravnica, which is where I said it was, just checked
21:31:18 <b_jonas> hmm wait, I think I remember something
21:31:18 <shachaf> But that doens't help you with non-land mana, or mana from before you had it.
21:31:24 <b_jonas> oh indeed, that's what you said
21:32:23 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, prismatic omen is another card along similar lines
21:32:28 <ais523> it gives all your lands all basic land types
21:32:39 <ais523> in addition to whatever they normally do
21:32:44 <shachaf> All of that is about producing karma, though.
21:33:02 <ais523> sort-of like urborg, but multicolored, doesn't help your opponent, and doesn't produce mana itself
21:33:07 <shachaf> You have to decide when you tap your land.
21:33:31 <b_jonas> I found Bog Initiate which converts to black
21:34:01 <shachaf> I didn't find anything that converts to green.
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21:36:57 <b_jonas> mind you, Orochi Leafcaller is sometimes good enough, because many decks that create lots of mana can create green
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21:37:57 <shachaf> Well, it isn't good enough for "convert to green".
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21:43:55 <b_jonas> shachaf: I can convert blue to any color using either Horseshoe Crab or Pemmin's Aura or Freed from the Real plus one other card of which there are many choices
21:44:22 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure how to convert from colorless mana
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21:44:23 <shachaf> Sure, but we were talking about converting *to* a particular color.
21:45:04 <b_jonas> I don't even see anything that converts {2} or {3} to {G}, infinitely repeatably
21:45:16 <b_jonas> except maybe very complicated combos
21:45:30 <b_jonas> I mean, so complicated that it's easier to just get an infinite mana combo
21:45:41 <b_jonas> one that generates infinite green mana
21:47:07 <b_jonas> ais523: is there something that lets you convert (colorless or white or red) mana to green in a way that's infinitely repeatable without requiring other resources, possibly consuming more than one mana?
21:47:31 <ais523> b_jonas: there's a combo that does that in my favourite deck but it's really complicated
21:47:53 <b_jonas> ais523: exactly, with a complicated combo, I can just generate infinite mana
21:48:40 <b_jonas> if you don't worry about how hard it is to set it up in a real game, it's easy to get a three-card infinite combo that generates any color
21:48:46 <ais523> my combo can generate infinite black, and can also convert 2B into BBC for any color C
21:49:00 <ais523> which is enough for infinite of any color
21:49:06 <b_jonas> the hard part is to make a deck that sets this up without the opponent disrupting the setup and winning
21:49:06 <ais523> but those are two separate steps
21:49:13 <ais523> (that happen to use the same cards, but in a different way)
21:49:25 <b_jonas> oh, I think you mentioned that combo
21:49:25 <ais523> actually, my deck is easy to disrupt, but can rebuild from basically nothing very quickly
21:49:29 <ais523> I've had times when someone's wrathed me
21:49:34 <ais523> the next turn I play out 10 creatures and combo out
21:49:39 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, does it invent nitia?
21:49:43 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
21:49:53 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I'm optimistic, I think I can build an infinite mana deck that will work
21:50:19 <ais523> shachaf: no, it invents the inventor of nitia
21:50:40 <shachaf> "it" being the BBC it creates.
21:50:55 <shachaf> I suppose there's only one.
21:50:59 <ais523> I don't know in that case
21:51:07 <ais523> but it's /possible/, perhaps, on a sufficiently metaphysical level
21:51:14 <Taneb> ais523's combo invents the inventor of nitia. Taneb invented it.
21:51:16 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull elliott Sgeo Bike oerjan Taneb ais523 ais523 elliott oerjan elliott FreeFull oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
21:51:34 <shachaf> apparently nitia invented ais523
21:51:36 <ais523> that's a lot of culprits for such a pointless entry
21:51:39 <shachaf> this is getting pretty complicated
21:52:30 <HackEgo> oerjan Taneb oerjan oerjan elliott shachaf boily oerjan ais523 ais523 shachaf elliott FreeFull shachaf shachaf oerjan oerjan FreeFull oerjan FreeFull Taneb shachaf shachaf nitia
21:52:37 <shachaf> truly, nitia is the inventor of all things
21:52:39 <b_jonas> hmm, it seems there are a couple of creature or artifact cards that have built-in abilities to untap for lots of mana. Those can be used with Utopia Vow or that better aura from Theros block to convert lots of colorless mana to any color
21:53:04 <b_jonas> Voltaic Construct is the easiest
21:53:19 <b_jonas> Voltaic Construct plus Scuttlemutt converts {2} to any color
21:55:17 <b_jonas> Voltaic Construct plus (Heartstone or Power Artifact or Training Grounds) plus Scuttlemutt lets you convert {1} to any color
21:56:19 <b_jonas> ok, so my solution is Voltaic Construct, Heartstone, Scuttlemutt
21:56:54 <b_jonas> shachaf: is that good enough?
21:57:04 <shachaf> I don't think I posed a problem.
21:58:49 <shachaf> Mana abilities are so complicated.
21:58:57 <shachaf> I wish this whole game was scrapped and replaced with something simpler.
21:59:36 <zzo38> Just make up a new game then
22:00:33 <zzo38> There are some stuff in Magic: the Gathering I don't like, for example I would remove the rules about Auras that are also creatures being discarded and stuff like that, as well as fixing the rules for card types and for some other things to make them more mathematically elegant; I think some rule not so mathematically elegant
22:02:24 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, I was wondering what was the most complicated that could happen immediately when activating a mana ability. I know you can sacrifice a creature, but I can't seem to make that cause anything disastrous immediately using static effects.
22:02:49 <b_jonas> This Voltaic Construct is interesting. I wonder if I could use it somehow.
22:02:52 <zzo38> I mostly like Magic: the Gathering though, including how mana abilities work and so on
22:03:01 <zzo38> I like the puzzles especially
22:04:42 <zzo38> So I would also want to make up a new kind of entirely different card game, that can be invent a programming language to invent the game and then write the rules as literate computer program. Makes it more clearly. I would also do it much more mathematically elegant. (My plan was to make the game "Aberration Hater Card Game", with several game modes, such as Solomon vs Rochester vs Sealed, symmetric vs asymmetric, two-players vs three-players vs Bri
22:05:13 <shachaf> zzo38: Your message was cut off.
22:05:44 <shachaf> I like the idea of a game with computer-interprable rules which is mathematically elegant.
22:06:15 <shachaf> I've wondered what sort of programming language you'd need to be able to express something similar to Magic: The Gathering cards concisely.
22:06:53 <shachaf> Although if you were designing the system from scratch to work that way you could get away with not having some of the complications that Magic: The Gathering has.
22:06:56 <ais523> shachaf: better: write an interpreter that takes Oracle text as its input langauge
22:07:19 <shachaf> I don't think that's better.
22:07:48 <shachaf> Oracle English is better than regular English, but it's still very complicated and irregular.
22:07:56 <shachaf> And so are the rules themselves.
22:08:00 <zzo38> ais523: Actually my idea was to have both; have a natural language parser which allows formatting codes and various other codes, it can then be printed or converted to computer codes, and can include inline computer-codes which are not printed (in order to deal with irregulatities and so on).
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22:08:17 <zzo38> The rules themself though would be written using literate computer-code instead.
22:08:28 <shachaf> There should be a simple language which, if you want, you can translate to English card text. Though I don't know if that's even a good idea.
22:08:49 <shachaf> Things like MtG keywords should be like library calls, with the core rule set being relatively small.
22:09:00 <zzo38> Do you like my idea though? It is pretty much different.
22:09:21 <shachaf> The question is how to make a language/environment which can modify itself to the degree that MtG cards can.
22:09:32 <zzo38> shachaf: I did think of several ideas about it
22:09:51 <shachaf> (And is also nearly as concise as English.)
22:10:34 <zzo38> If you type () or [] then it is comments in the card text, but the formatting is different; () print with () included in printout and italics while [] is printed without the [] but text inside is printed, and then perhaps (- -) or {- -} or whatever might include inline computer-codes which are not included in the printout.
22:10:42 <oerjan> zzo38: your messages keep getting cut off. i think your irc client needs better message length handling. perhaps splitting but at least a warning.
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22:13:49 <rafajafar> anyone here interested in serialization? I'd reallllly like some conversation and feedback on a spec for binary data transfer that follows closely with json
22:14:00 <zzo38> If it is RDF then consider something like: [:counter [!_:a :target :spell]; :replacing [:when [:moving [:what _:a; :from :stack; :to :graveyard]]; :replace-with [:moving [:to :library]]]]
22:14:19 <rafajafar> I have the spec up here, am working on it, but sure could use some foresight from those who may have some: https://github.com/rafajafar/binjas/blob/master/specification.txt
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22:35:56 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/yawg-prime.png
22:36:13 <\oren\> rafajafar: have you heard of BSON?
22:37:00 <shachaf> BSON is a scow encoding, if I remember correctly.
22:37:09 <rafajafar> there are a lot of issues with it, primary of which is how frequently it actually makes things larger
22:37:20 <rafajafar> more importantly, it has data types that aren't necessary
22:37:36 <boily> shachaf: this is a prime?
22:38:01 <shachaf> the two 'j's are pronounced the same way hth
22:38:50 <oerjan> by philistines and infidels, maybe
22:39:08 <boily> shachaf: Norwegian j or Fren j?
22:39:29 <shachaf> Norwegianch or Fren? that's up to you
22:39:31 <boily> ghargh. can't even regexp tonight.
22:39:42 <boily> I'll go with Norwegianch. I am cursed.
22:40:19 * oerjan shall now endeavor to pronounce the two h's in shachaf's name equally
22:41:18 <\oren\> both palatalize the preceding shound
22:41:19 <rafajafar> \oren\: like it's very interesting that bson has a date data type when json itself doesn't
22:41:39 <oerjan> \oren\: i believe you are wrong hth
22:41:54 <oerjan> wait, i was supposed to annoy shachaf not defend him
22:42:00 <rafajafar> and it's not a data type in javascript
22:42:07 <shachaf> why would you want to annoy me?
22:42:11 <rafajafar> it's just a class that most implementations have built in
22:42:24 <\oren\> the c is pronounced as a /t/ in 'ch'
22:42:57 <shachaf> i don't even know what you're trying to say now
22:43:08 <shachaf> the ch is a voiceless uvular fricative hth
22:43:17 <oerjan> shachaf: sweet sweet vengeance hth
22:44:25 <oerjan> itt \oren\ confuses english and hebrew
22:44:44 <oerjan> or perhaps just tries to annoy shachaf
22:44:49 <shachaf> http://forvo.com/word/%D7%A9%D7%97%D7%A3/
22:45:34 <mauris_> i mentally say ʃɑχɑf or whatever
22:45:53 <boily> . o O ( /χχχχχχχχχχχχχχχχ/ )
22:45:55 <\oren\> then your spelling it worng hth.
22:46:02 <mauris_> nice i'm close, i just mentally englishify the vowels!
22:46:14 <shachaf> you're pronouncing it wrong hth
22:46:28 <shachaf> oerjan is truly an evil overlord
22:46:28 <mauris_> shachaf: i have pronounced words for forvo
22:46:39 <shachaf> planting confusion behind the scenes
22:46:46 <mauris_> "my good deed to the earth hth"
22:46:49 <shachaf> that's not the right verb but i'm too confused to think of the right one
22:46:52 <\oren\> shachaf: well that girl on that website is saying /ʃahaf/
22:47:09 <shachaf> no, she's using a fricative
22:47:52 <shachaf> here's another one http://forvo.com/word/shachaf/
22:47:55 <\oren\> well then it's shaghaf
22:47:56 <mauris_> you can hear her uvula go chhhh! it is right there
22:48:24 <oerjan> shachaf: is the stress on the first or the last syllable, that link sounded perfectly ambiguous
22:48:34 <boily> `` grep -FIin uvular wisdom/*
22:48:37 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory
22:48:39 <shachaf> only a norwegian would think that's ambiguous hth
22:48:40 <mauris_> shakhaf would work (this is what some people do for /x/ in russian)
22:48:52 <HackEgo> 1094) <Koen_> nooodl: when my girlfriend asks me to give her uvular fricative I'm pretty sure that's not what she means
22:48:54 <shachaf> mauris_: the russian sound is velar not uvular hth
22:49:05 <oerjan> hm the second was clearly on the first
22:49:17 <shachaf> oerjan: the emphasis in oerjan is on both syllables, right?
22:49:19 <\oren\> but normal engish speakers pronounce 'ch' as 'tʃ' ok
22:49:21 <shachaf> or something bizarre like that
22:49:26 <oerjan> shachaf: i've been stressing your name wrongly all this time tdnh
22:49:31 <mauris_> yes but to the western world it falls nicely under "weird foreign throaty sounds we'll just spell kh"
22:49:46 <shachaf> \oren\: i eschew that pronunciation hth
22:49:58 <shachaf> that sound isn't even throaty
22:50:31 <boily> shachaf: it depends. mostly yes.
22:50:56 <oerjan> shachaf: i find it a bit hard to decide. supposedly stress should be on the first syllable but it's not as distinct in words with the second pitch accent
22:50:58 <mauris_> it's usually the ch in your name but voiced!
22:51:28 <boily> mauris_: mostly. there is some variation between the trill and fricative.
22:52:08 <mauris_> i think i've heard approximants in canadaian french, or am i just loopy?
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22:52:50 <oerjan> <shachaf> that's not the right verb but i'm too confused to think of the right one <-- sow hth
22:52:59 <\oren\> yeah the kebecwas pronounce it like english r
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22:54:02 <boily> \oren\: that is highly dubious.
22:54:48 <\oren\> Hmm ok apparently that's only people from ottawa
22:55:00 <mauris_> what i've definitely heard from french canadians is like...
22:55:25 <mauris_> they'll say words like "hamburger" with approximants to stick close to english
22:55:45 <mauris_> whereas here in europe people go hambuʁʁʁʁʁgeʁʁʁʁʁ and it's funny
22:56:04 <\oren\> yeah all kebecwas do taht, defiantly
22:56:26 <boily> \oren\: sorry, you aren't even wrong.
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22:57:53 <\oren\> boily: you don't like my englishification of quebecois?
22:58:26 <boily> hamburger sounds kind of like /æmbə̥'gœɹ/.
23:00:02 <boily> \oren\: ma vengeance sera terrible!
23:00:23 <mauris_> boily: avez-vous un microphone? there's so few samples of canadian french on the internet :<
23:00:50 <boily> mauris_: j'ai un micro, et tu peux me tutoyer. any sentence you'd like to hear?
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23:01:50 <mauris_> just "hamburger" was on my mind, but you can optionally jam it into a sentence!
23:02:03 <boily> okay, let's try...
23:03:33 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6oeAdemFZw
23:03:47 <mauris_> also, neat! i thought people speaking languages with T-V distinction usually vouvoyer'd each other on the internet
23:04:37 <shachaf> when you say throaty, i think of e.g. pharyngeal sounds
23:04:41 <oerjan> \oren\: not available tdnh
23:04:55 <oerjan> it's ok i can imagine peter sellers in my mind
23:05:13 <\oren\> it isn't peter sellers
23:05:27 <oerjan> how can it not be peter sellers
23:05:36 <\oren\> there was a remake hth
23:06:02 <HackEgo> His Master's Phonetic Hmph
23:06:06 <oerjan> i think i shall imagine peter sellers anyhow hth
23:06:20 <boily> mroman: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xe7pj3e4psp5p90/hamburger.ogg?dl=0
23:06:41 <tswett> Did someone say a programming language to express Magic: the Gathering cards in?
23:06:45 <oerjan> or i can just click in the sidebar
23:06:56 <boily> oerjan: you made me laugh with your omburguère.
23:07:29 <tswett> effect = add_blocking_restriction(lambda victim: not victim.flying)
23:07:58 <boily> hm. confused mroman and mauris.
23:08:02 <mauris_> boily: this is adorable <3
23:08:20 <mauris_> also canadian french is freaky
23:08:23 <tswett> I mean, with Python you can't define a method using = like that.
23:08:44 <mauris_> i can only understand like 25% of this, the ts and dz throws me off
23:08:48 <boily> mauris_: it was quite standard French. I was light with the regionalisms.
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23:09:07 <mauris_> (mind, i can only understand like 50% of france french to begin with)
23:09:47 <tswett> def effect(self): deal_damage(self.targets.player, 4); for c in self.targets.player.creatures { deal_damage(c, 4) }
23:10:18 <oerjan> ok that'll do, mustn't overdose
23:11:41 <tswett> def effect(self): card = self.targets.creature.controller.reveal_random_from_hand(); cmc = card.converted_mana_cost; self.deal_damage(self.targets.creature, cmc); self.deal_damage(self.targets.creature.controller, cmc)
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23:12:04 <mauris_> tswett: pff what if add_blocking_restriction returns a lambda that takes a `self` parameter that (etc.)
23:12:07 <\oren\> that sounded like a normal english r in ambergar
23:12:45 <tswett> mauris_: then I'll punch whoever wrote the framework in the face.
23:13:24 <\oren\> tswett: until they give you a good api? sounds reasonable
23:14:25 <tswett> def attack_trigger(self): victim = self.controller.select_target(creature); if victim is not None: victim.add_blocking_restriction(lambda: false, until_end_of_turn)
23:14:41 <tswett> You know, this would actually be an interesting challenge.
23:14:55 <oerjan> Amberg: a small german village whose inhabitants are furious that a misspelling caused Hamburg to steal the credit for their gastronomical masterpiece
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23:16:14 <tswett> Amberg is named after a person who once found a piece of ambergris lying on the beach, but then had their legs eaten by a bear and they died, so in that person's memory the townsfolk chopped off the last three letters of the word "ambergris".
23:16:35 <tswett> Actually, it's the other way around.
23:16:50 <boily> they chopped the legs off a whale?
23:17:00 <tswett> Ambergris is named after its discoverer, a person whose name was Chris, and who was from Amberg, and thus was called Amberg Chris.
23:17:17 <\oren\> Amberg is halfway between regensberg and bayreuth, which I assume is the german version of beirut
23:17:28 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
23:17:30 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
23:17:44 <tswett> The monoid/monoids situation must be rectified.
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23:18:25 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
23:18:32 <boily> tswett: no no no no no! It's just a German conflagration of a strong verb and a mountain. male boasting, if you want. Am berg. Are berg. Is berg. You small-hill.
23:18:33 <HackEgo> Bicategories are just categories where composition is only associative up to an isomorphism.
23:18:53 <oerjan> `learn Monoids are just the easy version of categories with a single object.
23:18:55 <HackEgo> Learned 'monoid': Monoids are just the easy version of categories with a single object.
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23:18:59 <\oren\> amberg is next to a town called bamberg
23:19:12 <oerjan> tswett: that what you meant?
23:19:19 <tswett> oerjan: you're aware, of course, that the combined wisdom doesn't really make sense.
23:19:35 <tswett> `le/rn category/A category is just a category object in the category of classes.
23:20:10 <oerjan> tswett: actually i think it makes perfect sense.
23:20:28 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamberg_potato
23:21:11 <oerjan> boily: shouldn't that be Eisberg hth
23:21:54 <\oren\> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Franconia_details.png as you can see, Amberg, Bamberg and Nuremberg are close to each other
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23:26:02 <boily> oerjan: you're thinking of a salad hth
23:28:17 <tswett> Apparently when Magic R&D is playtesting, they use cards that look like this: http://media.wizards.com/legacy/global/images/mtgcom_daily_af40_picmain_en.jpg
23:28:32 <tswett> The entire contents of that card, for our viewers at home:
23:31:08 <tswett> `le/rn kayayaya/Ka-ya-ya-ya. Ka-ya-ya-ya-ya. Ka-ya-ya-ya. Ka-ya-ya-ya-ya.
23:31:16 <tswett> In case anyone was wondering.
23:32:24 <tswett> Man, "loudly" has got to be the best thing I've done for this channel.
23:32:34 <tswett> I don't know why you aren't all heaping praise upon me.
23:34:06 <int-e> tswett: I'm sure we're all afraid of suffocating you.
23:34:13 <boily> tswett: imperial or metric heap?
23:34:13 <tswett> Ah, yes, that must be it.
23:40:21 <HackEgo> Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
23:49:03 <int-e> does it have a wisard?
23:53:31 <int-e> sorry, what's the difference?
23:56:08 <int-e> (mental spell correction working a little too well, perhaps?)