00:00:58 go is insane. 00:01:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:01:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:01:54 \oren\: you should also 鹽, because density. 00:03:41 <\oren\> uh, I dunno what that one means 00:04:32 the traditional version of "salt". 00:09:01 perhaps go with 鬱? 00:09:15 I'm curious how far you can go with you font metrics. 00:09:49 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 00:09:50 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:10:35 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 00:10:35 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:10:55 easy, add a bunch of noise 00:17:49 Clearly all Asian languages should switch to hangul 00:19:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:23:25 hangul is cool, but I wouldn't be in this channel if I liked sensible standardization 00:24:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 00:25:06 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:31:25 dhelloesthiswork! 00:31:48 FrelloeFull, mynamello. 00:32:57 -!- int-e has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:34:13 ? 00:34:26 -!- int-e has joined. 00:35:06 that is a very variable morpheme you're adding 00:36:02 <\oren\> [he]llo 00:36:18 porthelloing people requires flexibility and complete disregard to common grammar courtesy. 00:37:02 oren: he only added hell to my name 00:44:25 boily: Hi 00:48:03 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 00:59:17 Can a situation be made up out of Magic: the Gathering cards where the colorful mana cost of a delve spell is removed? 01:00:15 [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44374&oldid=44220 * SuperJedi224 * (+98) /* A (horribly slow) 16-bit Brainf*** interpreter */ 01:03:45 Let me to see if I can figure out by myself, but anyone else who know answer can also answer 01:06:08 I had an idea for an esolang 01:06:23 -!- boily has quit (Quit: COUNTERINTELLIGENCE CHICKEN). 01:06:26 It's very abstract though and I don't know how to concretely define its behavior 01:06:45 Then what things do you know about it? 01:08:21 zzo38: It's called analogy:simile ("Analogy is to simile") 01:08:34 It's based on, for lack of a better word AFAIK, analogy clauses 01:08:50 They gave them to us when I was in 4th-5th grade, I think 01:09:05 They were usually questions that looked like this: 01:09:21 triangle:shape::red:_____ 01:09:37 ("Triangle is to Shape as red is to what?") 01:10:16 color 01:10:24 * izabera solves all the quizzes 01:12:09 Does anyone know what those things are called? 01:12:51 analogies? 01:13:33 They are, but I have a feeling they have a more specific name 01:13:41 Analogy clauses perhaps? 01:14:56 that sounds like a very interesting language. 01:15:47 can you come up with some examples of things you could do with it? 01:15:49 Well 01:16:05 I can't find what it's called (or even a wiki article on it) 01:16:13 are you kinda bummed about the double slit being solved? <-- * me is kinda bummed that no one in the log discussion provided a link to wth this is about 01:16:15 I'm calling it an "Analogy Clause" 01:16:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:18:07 doesthiswork: I think that, in my current idea, it'd be based on OO and machine learning 01:18:16 I would use Pybrain to implement it, most likely 01:18:32 The implementation doesn't really matter yet. 01:18:34 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy#Identity_of_relation calls them "analogy questions" including the quotes 01:18:37 It doesn't 01:19:20 oh and Aristotelian format 01:19:23 I am curious to see some handwavy example programs 01:20:38 Well 01:20:51 I could do some uber-tentative BNF 01:21:25 x:5::12:13 might be a way to set x to 4 01:21:48 Or to 5-(1/12) 01:21:57 Or to a million other possible things 01:22:08 doesthiswork: Basically, do you know Haskell's infinite list notation? 01:22:14 yes 01:22:47 Imagine if someone put too much effort into making it so that could recognize the Fibonacci sequence or a million other sequences automagically 01:23:02 And that is basically the core feature of this language if it follows my current idea set 01:23:21 [1, 1, 2, 3..] 01:23:30 [1, 2, 4, 8..] 01:23:35 @oeis 1, 2, 4, 8 01:23:45 (it would always choose the simplest sequence) 01:23:52 what's with lambdabot 01:23:53 Plugin `oeis' failed with: <> 01:24:03 @oeis 1,2,4,8 01:24:04 Powers of 2: a(n) = 2^n.[1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16... 01:24:05 X:0::+:1::*:2::^:3 01:24:21 Huh? 01:24:32 Ooooh 01:24:35 Hyperoperations 01:24:37 hopefully that would derive zeration 01:24:48 Zeration? 01:24:48 @oeis 1,2,4,8,16,31 01:24:50 Pentanacci numbers: a(n) = a(n-1)+a(n-2)+a(n-3)+a(n-4)+a(n-5), a(0)=a(1)=a(2... 01:25:15 @oeis 1,2,4,8,16,33 01:25:16 Generalized Catalan numbers: a(n+1) = a(n) + Sum_{k=2..n-1} a(k)a(n-1-k).[1,... 01:25:51 @oeis 1,2,4,8,15,32 01:25:53 Factorial splitting: write n! = x*y*z with x @oeis 1,2,4,8,17,32 01:26:06 Sequence not found. 01:26:35 "This is called the Melvar sequence, consisting of a maximum of 6 numbers." 01:26:40 doesthiswork: What's zeration? 01:26:45 Oh 01:26:58 In this language, ^ would be bitwise xor and ** exponentation 01:29:20 I guess it's the successor function? 01:29:23 @tell blurelIse im really disliking this whole heavy stuff on a blanket model <-- you'll be happy to know that's not really part of GR then, but a ridiculously oversimplifying analogy that GR experts also hate hth 01:29:23 Consider it noted. 01:29:25 Zeration, that is 01:29:53 similar but with some odd twists 01:32:36 doesthiswork: Such as? 01:33:01 http://math.eretrandre.org/tetrationforum/showthread.php?tid=122 01:34:15 the problem is the successor function only takes one argument 01:35:00 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:38:01 http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/147989/what-is-the-proper-plural-form-of-apparatus <-- huh the top answer to that question is by peter shor. yes, that one. 01:40:58 (Someone should define "Zhₙ(a, b) ∀(n, a, b) ∋ ℂ" where "Zhₙ(a, b)" is an extended hyperoperation function 01:42:39 ) 01:42:48 I see I've left you all in a speechless terror 01:43:48 oerjan: being a famous personality does not help to resist the power of the Hot Network Questions link box. 01:44:09 Just be cald I said ℂ instead of ℍ 01:44:15 *glad 01:47:41 is R[X]/(X^2 + 1) equivalent to the complex numbers 01:47:44 I vote that we make up a fictional Mathemetician and attribute all humorous mathematical "discoveries" we make on this channel to him 01:47:57 mauris: I have no idea 01:47:57 he also had an interesting comment on a later answer, did you know "syllabus" comes from an ancient misspelling? 01:48:04 Weird 01:48:18 Can I choose the mathemetician's surname? 01:48:40 i can only conclude peter shor knows his latin. 01:48:42 Wait 01:48:48 It's mathametician. Or is it? 01:49:03 I can't spell words that sound too hambiguous xD 01:49:31 math e mat ician 01:49:56 sheesh 01:49:59 Ah 01:50:01 Sorry! 01:50:23 wow, i was right! 01:50:45 about the quotient ring thingy. but also about how to spell mathematician imo 01:50:46 English isn't my strongest subject (hence the fact that I had to rephrase the previous sentence so I could spell it properly) 01:51:25 So can we have our own Patrom Math e mat ician? 01:51:29 *Patron 01:51:32 -!- adu has joined. 01:51:37 hppavilion[1]: well bourbaki and bovik are taken hth 01:51:40 Hi, adu! 01:51:56 should start with "bow" 01:52:16 I was going to make his last name "Notta", famous for his "Notta Number Systems", a set of number systems where n/0 is defined 01:52:18 xD 01:53:02 Though we could do mauris's idea, too 01:53:41 oerjan: That latin plural question reminded me of the thing where in German sometimes to form the plural of foreign words like that, we strip off the ending and then add a German plural ending -en. 01:54:21 Melvar: well norwegian does that with e.g. "museum" -> "museer" 01:54:48 i think it's not that common, though. 01:55:00 So what is Mdr. Notta's first name? 01:55:06 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 01:55:10 hppavilion[1]: hi 01:55:17 hppavilion[1]: again 01:55:54 Museum → Museen, but the one that prompted my reminding was Stadion → Stadien 01:55:56 adu: I'm trying to get the channel a fictional mathematician to which we will attribute all our humorous mathematical "discoveries" if we want to 01:56:30 I'm a mathematitian 01:56:45 Cool 01:56:45 hppavilion[1]: Hedwig hth 01:56:52 but in honor of Euler, I would recommend "Sir Oily" 01:57:02 oerjan: Hedwig Notta? That works 01:57:15 mostly for the final -ig 01:57:44 Sir Oilly was a mathematician who lived on the moon, who invented the calculus of emotions, which has been very useful in pre-crime investigations 01:57:49 OK 01:58:14 What should his birthyear be (pleasebeacomplexnumberpleasebeacomplexnumberpleasebeacomplexnumber) 01:58:20 ? 01:58:24 lol 01:58:44 1963 1/4 01:58:51 That works too :,( 01:59:05 probably 2025 + sqrt(-2) 01:59:10 “Apparat” doesn’t have the ending in the first place, and thus takes an -e plural. “Status” is so rarely pluralized, it takes a Latin plural, meaning it stays “Status”. 02:00:35 or even better: (-4000000)^(1/4) 02:01:07 which means he could have been born in any one of 8 places in the complex time-plane 02:02:30 or perhaps the calculation should be based on J2000 02:02:57 J2000 + (-4)^(1/4) microseconds 02:04:30 What did his poor, farming family farm for a living? 02:04:55 oooo, it would have to be bitcoins 02:04:59 Ah yes 02:05:01 Bitcoins 02:06:53 What's root(-1, 3)? 02:07:01 also complex 02:07:18 but it's a boring one because 1 of the roots is -1 02:08:36 and one day, he accidentally planted an J2EE seed, and got a giant J2EEBeanStock in his backyard 02:10:12 and rediscovered lambda calculus, not to be famous, or get into the Turing/Church prodecural/function debates, but because we was stuck in his house, and wanted to go outside to get a new 802.11ac router 02:11:28 [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44375 * Hppavilion1 * (+919) Created Page (in user namespace for safety) 02:11:53 adu: You can go edit the page in my user namespace 02:13:06 lol 02:13:27 [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44376&oldid=44375 * Hppavilion1 * (+5) Added Mdr. prefix to introductory paragraph (should it be bold?) 02:13:40 adu: By that I mean you /should/ edit the page 02:14:18 fizzie: Are you the one who came up with @? 02:18:51 No 02:18:55 It was Sgeo 02:22:24 -!- ^v has joined. 02:22:30 All of those words are made up entirely of straight lines. <-- except for NEITHER hth 02:22:41 os 02:23:14 I'm going to assume that the inclusion of R was an error. 02:23:34 definitely the kind of puzzle you should check programmatically. like writing a novel without E 02:23:43 Right. 02:23:46 (you could also remove the keycap) 02:24:00 As everyone knows, writing a novel without E is effectively impossible without a typewriter. 02:24:14 huh 02:24:56 Errr. 02:24:59 I'm going to re-say that. 02:25:05 [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44377&oldid=44376 * 73.133.129.229 * (+1022) 02:25:07 Ignore the above three lines and this line. 02:25:13 hppavilion[1]: I wrote a little bit 02:25:14 As everyone knows, writing a novel without E is effectively impossible with a typewriter. 02:27:51 fizzie: Are you the one who came up with @? <-- i thought that was elliott 02:28:05 Thank you, adu 02:28:22 hppavilion[1]: It was Sgeo. I have it documented. Not sure if elliott == Sgeo. 02:28:51 btw hedwig is a female name but e's a Mdr. anyway so who knows 02:28:55 hppavilion[1]: it's not perfect, but I think it's funny enough for a first draft 02:28:56 elliott !+ Sgeo 02:28:59 err != 02:29:06 Yep 02:29:12 oerjan, maybe we're thinking of different @s? 02:29:17 OK 02:29:35 Mine is the one where |x| is redefined such that |a + b@| = |a| - |b| 02:29:36 oerjan: |@| = -1 in Sgeo's system 02:29:58 What's @? 02:30:05 tswett: A number 02:30:12 It's... I guess it's a number such that |@| = -1. 02:30:17 oh it's for metadoctor 02:30:37 Sgeo: i was thinking of elliott's OS 02:30:42 `quote vapo 02:30:55 446) sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour 02:31:03 Let's see. For a complex number z = a + bi, with a and b real, a^2 + b^2 = |z|^2. 02:31:19 [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44378&oldid=44377 * Hppavilion1 * (+29) Sectionized discoveries 02:35:22 [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44379&oldid=44378 * Oerjan * (+5) tense spacing 02:48:18 what do you do when you're op in a channel and people start talking about off topic things but they're not interrupting any other discussion because there was none? 02:50:52 That doesn't seem a problem to me in most cases 02:52:10 they're ranging from politics to bsdm to cracking systems 02:54:59 If nobody has any on topic things to write about at the current moment then at least I don't care; but others may have different opinion 02:57:45 tswett, at least, |a| + |b| >= |a + b| no longer holds 02:59:26 Sgeo: Yes, and I expect that would make it to be not a metric, isn't it? Then why do they call it a metric? 03:00:12 I don't think I called it a metric. It's possible that it was a metric before but my redefinition (which is really the only 'legitimate' way to do this, I'm guessing) makes it not a metric anymore 03:00:15 izabera: ais523 has some opinions on that, as i recall. 03:00:17 what is your definition of |x| ? 03:00:32 oerjan: on politics or bsdm? 03:00:43 no, he tries to defuse disturbing discussions 03:00:53 those subjects probably qualify 03:01:03 izabera, if there is no @, then |x| = abs(x). Else, |a + b@| = |a| - |b| 03:01:28 At least, unless that definition of |x| has an inconsistency, then we go back to only knowing that |@| = -1 03:01:38 oh you posted it a few messages ago 03:02:49 zzo38: i believe there have been people who left this channel because they found some of the political discussions disturbing. 03:03:07 we've got less of those discussions these days, i think 03:03:47 |0+1@| == |0| - |1@| == 1 03:04:23 Sgeo: that can't work 03:04:30 ? Why isn't it |0| - |1|? Or, why are you saying you can do |0| - |1@| ? 03:04:31 unless -1 is 1 of course 03:04:34 izabera: That doesn't seem Sgeo's definition? 03:04:36 oh 03:04:39 i'm stupid 03:04:55 <.< 03:05:13 in my defense it's 5am 03:05:57 Sgeo: hm your @ looks a bit similar to minkowski metric 03:06:08 oh wait 03:06:15 that involves squaring 03:09:29 what is |@ + @| ? 03:11:22 -2 03:12:01 that's entirely non obvious 03:12:59 izabera: 2@ 03:13:06 no 03:13:09 |2@|=-2 03:13:10 |x| is real 03:13:17 i+i=2i 03:13:22 So @+@=2@ 03:14:00 What's |e^(@*pi)| ? 03:15:00 I don't know how to ^@ 03:15:27 Then try to figure out how 03:15:44 e^x is exp(x) which is 1 + x + x^2 / 2! + x^3 / 3! + ... 03:16:07 |a@| == -a ? 03:16:18 izabera: Yes 03:16:31 I imagine @^2 = 1 03:17:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:17:13 Sgeo: What do you think? 03:17:31 I think hyperbolic functions are applicable somehow 03:17:54 |@@| = - |@| = 1 03:18:27 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:19:18 FreeFull, that seems useful 03:19:22 The exp(x) thing 03:19:48 e 03:20:01 Sgeo: Yeah, it's how matrix exponentiation is generalised for example 03:20:22 Hmm I think |e^@| = e^-1 ? 03:20:23 Or the justification for how exponentiation works in the complex numbers 03:20:47 Sgeo: I don't think so 03:21:02 Or hmmm 03:21:48 Let me actually calculate it 03:22:43 So as I was saying... 03:23:48 I think I'd say |x| is naturally treated as a multivalued function, having y as a value if and only if it has -y as a value. 03:23:54 And having at most two values. 03:24:12 If you look at it this way, then |x| = -1 just means the same thing as |x| = 1. 03:26:28 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 03:26:29 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:26:39 The graph of the absolute value function looks like a cone; the shape becomes more elegant if you extend it to a double cone. 03:26:45 I think I can define "becomes more elegant" precisely. 03:27:36 Yeah. A double cone is the graph of the equation x^2 + y^2 = z^2. 03:27:37 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:27:39 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 03:27:44 A cone is no such thing. 03:28:09 -!- fowl has left ("Leaving"). 03:28:10 Sgeo: e^@ = cosh(1) + @*sinh(1) 03:29:05 cosh(1) - sinh(1) = e^-1 03:29:08 Sgeo: Seems you were right 03:29:15 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:29:20 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 03:29:58 FreeFull, I was looking at your expansion, where each x is, when ||ed a - 03:30:10 I don't understand hyperbolic trig though 03:30:49 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 03:30:49 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:31:06 sinh and cosh are pretty simple. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_function 03:31:23 They're just (e^x ± e^-x)/2. 03:32:15 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 03:32:15 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:32:17 So we have a pretty trivial identity e^x = cosh x + sinh x, meaning that e^@ = cosh @ + sinh @. 03:33:16 Now, I think the way I'd handle this is to say that every complex number besides 0 has two variants, one whose absolute value is positive and one whose absolute value is negative. 03:33:44 Then the question is how to extend arithmetic appropriately. 03:33:55 Hmm, |e^@| = |e^(-1)| 03:34:12 You could define @ as the variant of 1 whose absolute value is negative. 03:35:01 tswett, is this different from adding a boolean dimension to the complex numbers? 03:35:31 Well, under my scheme, 0 only has the one variant. 03:36:50 I'm imagining multiplication being such that @^2 = 1. 03:37:18 tswett: Yes, we've established @*@ = 1 too 03:38:03 Have you decided that @ is negative? 03:38:31 I don't remember establishing @@=1 03:38:35 Just that |@@| = 1 03:38:52 Is i considered positive? 03:38:54 Sgeo: Ok, it hasn't been formally proven 03:38:57 i is not positive. 03:39:18 So I guess negative i is not negative? 03:39:18 I wonder how this compares to a Clifford algebra with e1² = 1 03:39:20 This amuses me. 03:39:41 FreeFull, I wish I knew what that meant 03:39:56 Sgeo: I wish that too 03:40:30 Of course, negative negative one isn't negative, either. 03:41:32 For convenience, I'm gonna abbreviate the sign of the absolute value of a number as its SAV. 03:42:00 The ordinary numbers we're used to are (with the exception of 0) positive-SAV numbers. 03:42:17 Each positive-SAV number has a counterpart which is a negative-SAV number, and vice versa. 03:43:24 You can switch between these two counterparts by multiplying by @, which is simply the negative-SAV counterpart of 1. 03:43:37 Multiplication is still associative and commutative, and @^2 = 1. 03:43:50 0 is neither positive-SAV nor negative-SAV, since its absolute value is 0. 03:43:55 This tells you how to do multiplication. 03:44:13 As for how to do addition? 03:44:53 I feel comfortable saying this much: the sum of two positive-SAV numbers is the expected positive-SAV number and the sum of two negative-SAV numbers is the expected negative-SAV number. The sum of 0 with any number is that number. 03:45:13 The case I'm leaving undefined is the sum of a positive-SAV number and a negative-SAV number. 03:46:05 I justified @^2 = 1 by thinking about |x|^2 = x^2 03:46:11 Although that's not really a proof 03:46:45 It's because I was previously thinking about polynomials where x^2 gets replaced with |x| 03:47:03 |x|^2 = x^2 doesn't hold for imaginary numbers. 03:47:13 x^3 becomes x|x| and so on 03:47:17 I think |a + b@| = |a| - |b| is also something that seemed to fit, was thinking about squaring I think 03:47:26 tswett: Ah, good point 03:47:28 It should be in the logs somewhere 03:48:05 1 + @ is a zero-SAV number that is not equal to 0 03:48:58 can you prove that it doesn't equal zero? 03:49:10 So |10 + 3@| is 7? 03:49:38 tswett, yes, assuming we accept my above definition, which I don't think has any blatant problems so is there a reason not to? 03:50:00 (1+@)^2 = 1+2@+@@ 03:50:01 1 + @ = 0; 1 = -@; -1 = @; 03:50:09 -!- lemurian has joined. 03:50:16 This means that |10 + 3i@| is also 7. 03:50:48 Which definitely doesn't sit well with me. 03:51:18 Why are you bringing i into this? 03:51:24 Hmm, I'm not sure what the problem is? |i| = 1 03:51:35 Well, |10 + 3i| isn't 13. 03:51:40 ! 03:51:44 Good point, hmm 03:52:09 I don't think we can chuck i in just like that 03:52:10 why would |10 + 3i@| be 7? 03:52:28 |a + b@| = |a| - |b| 03:52:30 |10 + 3i@| = |10| - |3i| = 10 - 3 = 7 03:53:00 I think @ is orthogonal to i, so it's ok 03:53:22 That's a funny sort of orthogonality. 03:53:25 Both a and b can be separate complex numbers 03:53:30 * zgrep wonders what @ is... 03:53:36 zgrep: don't we all. 03:53:49 zgrep: A fancy new number with a negative magnitude 03:53:53 FreeFull: now, what would justify |a + b@| = |a| - |b|? 03:53:57 tswett: I know for a fact, that I do quite profusely. 03:54:05 s/,// 03:54:22 It seems like an extension of the rule that |a + b| = |a| + |b|, but that rule isn't actually true. 03:54:26 I had thought that the absolute value of i was i 03:54:29 zgrep, a number such that |@| = -1, alternatively, a system in which || is redefined to allow for |@| = -1 03:54:34 Nope, |i| is 1. 03:55:10 tswett: |a + b@| isn't the same as |a + b| though 03:55:11 tswett, I think it's clear though that |a + b| <= |a| + |b| without @, but breaks when @ is introduced 03:55:13 oh,yes 03:55:15 You know, I had a thought just now. 03:55:39 tswett: Just as |a + bi| isn't the same as |a + b| 03:56:07 I still don't see any justification for |a + b@| = |a| - |b|. 03:56:12 FreeFull, the thing is with |a + bi| you don't just add or subtract, it involves squaring and square roots 03:56:40 In any case, define a transconic number as a pair (z,v) where z is a complex number and v is a real number. 03:56:48 Sgeo: Here we aren't just adding or subtracting either, it involves the magnitudes of the components 03:56:54 The absolute value of (z,v) is v. 03:57:50 This seems like it might admit more numbers than the @ system 03:57:56 The transconic numbers are an extension of the complex numbers; the complex number z corresponds to the transconic number (z,|z|). 03:58:09 @ is (1,-1). 03:58:33 Multiplication just goes elementwise: (z,v) * (z',v') is (z*z', v*v'). 03:58:46 tswett: Do you get the identity exp(@x) = cosh(x) + @*sinh(x) from this? 03:59:15 FreeFull: it's not obvious to me where that identity comes from. 03:59:41 tswett: taylor expansions of exp, cosh and sinh around 0 04:00:00 And @^2 = 1 04:00:00 I don't know if you get that identity or not. 04:00:06 tswett, that identity does rely on |b@| = -|b| I think 04:00:34 It just relies on @^2 = 1 I think 04:00:44 What if b is 3i@? 04:01:20 |10 + 3i| = |10 + 3i@^2| = |10| - |3i@| = |10| + |3i| 04:01:39 Anyway, the question regarding these "transconic numbers" is how to do addition. 04:01:54 if @^2=1 |(1+@)|=0 04:02:18 woop |(1+@)^2|=0 04:02:20 A bit distracted by work related phone call right now 04:02:33 What we would kind of like to say is that (z,v) + (y,w) is (z+y, v+w). 04:02:54 The z+y part is indeed what I want, but adding two numbers doesn't generally add their absolute values. 04:03:24 Not all transconic numbers can take the form a+b@, I believe 04:03:24 * zgrep imagines what a ((work related phone) call) would be like... a sort-of... formal ringing? 04:03:55 A call, whether business or personal, placed on a company-owned phone? 04:04:11 Yes that is what I thought too 04:04:24 tswett: That's a (work related)(phone call). 04:04:32 What happens if we want another number, %, where |%| = i ? 04:05:24 tswett: Oh... maybe not. 04:05:34 Lemme see. What's the formula for |a + b| given |a|, |b|, and the required extra info? 04:06:02 What happens if we try to do it geometrically? 04:06:08 This is related to the law of cosines. 04:06:15 zgrep: I thought a (work related)(phone call) would be a call discussing work, so normally business but it might not necessarily be (it could be a personal call where someone ask you how long until you are home from work I suppose, but I am not sure if it count actually) 04:06:17 Does |a + b| count as required extra info? 04:06:26 Like, @ defines a third dimension, such that going along the dimension negates instead of adds to the distance? 04:06:32 zzo38: Yeah, I realized that after a few seconds. 04:06:56 Quite a few of them. 04:06:57 If we're talking just about real numbers, you could do a formula with some trouble, I think 04:06:58 Sgeo: that's more or less what I'm doing. 04:07:52 signum(a) and signum(b) would be required extra info, I believe 04:07:58 I think it's different, your additional dimension is the actual absolute value, where mine only contributes differently 04:08:20 Okay, I think the equation I want is |a + b|^2 = |a|^2 + |b|^2 - |2ab| cos(gamma). 04:08:26 |a+bi+c@| = sqrt(a^2 + b^2 - c^2) ? 04:08:31 Where gamma is the relevant angle. 04:09:11 cos(gamma) is, I think, the real part of the signum of a/b. 04:09:27 Hmm I don't know what to do with |i@| 04:09:44 Wait didn't I break that sqrt approach once before in the logs? 04:09:53 No, that can't be right... 04:10:19 D'oh. That certainly can be right. 04:10:41 Oh right sqrt is usually defined as positive 04:11:04 -!- zgrep has left ("Error -15: Teleporter malfunction."). 04:11:06 -!- zgrep has joined. 04:11:34 We need an actual mathematician 04:11:42 Okay. |a + b|^2 = |a|^2 + |b|^2 - |2ab| Real(Sgn(a/b)). 04:12:04 actual mathematician here. what's the emergency? 04:12:08 |a + b@| = sqrt(a^2) - (sqrt(a^2 + b^2) - sqrt(a^2)) 04:12:08 This implies that |a + b| = sqrt(|a|^2 + |b|^2 - |2ab| Real(Sgn(a/b))). 04:12:18 coppro: do you have published research? 04:12:27 tswett: not published, but I have an approved thesis 04:12:41 |a + b@| = 2a - sqrt(a^2 + b^2), does this make sense as reasonable? 04:12:41 A PhD thesis? 04:12:57 busy right now will run some numbers through that later 04:12:59 So the question for my thing is, of course, which square root? 04:15:35 Instead of sqrt(a^2 + b^2) 04:15:42 Let's have |a + bi| 04:16:06 FreeFull, equiv. and makes it more intuitive, ty 04:16:22 Wait no still not intuitive 04:17:29 I need sleep 04:17:49 The idea is that I'm capturing the extent that the dimension contributes to distance, and negating it 04:18:09 It might turn out that the answer is "the obvious one". 04:18:36 In any case, I have an addition formula now. It's horrible, but it exists. 04:18:39 It's... 04:19:21 (z,v) + (y,w) = (z+y, sqrt(v^2 + w^2 - 2vw Real(Sign(z/y)))) 04:20:17 That's a weird one 04:20:29 Yup. 04:20:43 And the icky thing is, I don't know how to determine which square root you use. 04:20:51 All we need now is someone to prove all of this mess inconsistent 04:21:16 My stuff is undoubtedly inconsistent with some axioms obeyed by the complex numbers, but it's consistent per se. 04:21:52 What if we want |%| = i ? 04:22:22 That would hypothetically be (1,i). 04:22:40 But I'm currently not permitting the v part to be non-real. 04:24:09 Are our defintions similar or different? They look different, can we put some numbers in? 04:24:41 Per mine, |1+@| = 2 - sqrt(2) = I have no idea if that's sane 04:25:11 Per yours, |1+@| = sqrt(0 - 0) = 0 04:26:14 Per mine, |1+@| is the absolute value of 1 + @ = (1,1) + (1,-1) = (2, sqrt(1^2 + (-1)^2 - 2(1)(-1) Real(Sign(1/1))))... 04:27:11 And that square root is sqrt(1 + 1 + 2), or 2. 04:27:20 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:27:22 Hi 04:27:29 So the answer is (2, 2), except I don't have a basis for choosing whether it's 2 or -2. 04:27:44 So 1 + @ is undecided between 2 and -2. 04:28:00 I'd prohibit that sum. 04:28:06 Sgeo: So, you're not going with |1+@| = 0 any more? 04:28:09 Rather, it's undecided between 2 and 2@. 04:28:34 1 -> (1, 1)? 04:28:46 Yeah. In general, z -> (z, |z|) 04:28:59 Err... where? 04:29:01 ζ=1/0 04:29:11 Anyone want to go on a long, rambling discussion about that? 04:29:15 xD 04:29:26 It equals -1/0, hth 04:29:26 hppavilion[1]: sure. That discussion is called "projective algebraic geometry". 04:29:42 tswett: Wait, that's a thing? 04:30:11 FreeFull, I don't think so 04:30:35 Well, projective algebraic geometry involves adding points that are essentially located at 1/0. 04:30:41 ζ is the notta constant in this case 04:30:43 Oh 04:30:45 That's cheating 04:30:46 xD 04:30:49 *Notta 04:30:52 tswett, are -1/0 and 1/0 equivalent in projective algebraic geometry? 04:31:01 nζ=n/0 04:31:07 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_projective_line 04:31:22 Projective algebraic geometry doesn't really treat 1/0 as a number. 04:31:45 But the projective version of the real line (which is the thing FreeFull just linked) does have a number 1/0, which is the same as -1/0. 04:31:58 Hm... 04:32:06 Maybe I should call it a point instead of a number. 04:32:17 Sgeo: |#|=i 04:32:31 There is also the complex projective line 04:32:45 Which also has a single point at infinity 04:32:54 And, I presume, the quaternionical projective line? 04:33:04 What's (*)+(√) 04:33:06 FreeFull: that's also called the Riemann sphere, isn't it? 04:33:22 We should make an Algebra of Operations xD 04:33:27 Which defines operations on operations 04:33:33 tswett: Yes 04:33:38 |x+@| = 0 in my system, 2x - sqrt(x^2 + 1) = 0; 2x = sqrt(x^2 + 1), 4x^2 = x^2 + 1; 4x^2 - x^2 - 1 = 0; 3x^2 - 1 = 0; 3x^2 = 1; x^2 = 1/3; x= 1/sqrt(3) ?!?!? 04:34:05 Sgeo: Well i! equals some weird shit, so... that's fine, really 04:34:14 hppavilion[1]: there are a lot of ways to do that. 04:34:18 Like, say... lambda calculus. 04:34:20 Or Haskell. 04:34:29 hppavilion[1]: That doesn't make sense, * is dyadic and √ is monadic 04:34:42 FreeFull: Exactly. The Algebra of Operations 04:35:08 tswett: Haskell is cheating. λ-calc is too, maybe 04:35:25 Can we prove that we can have |a + b@| have different definitions that are each individually consistent with themselves? 04:35:32 What should the metaoperations be? 04:35:40 What makes it cheating? 04:36:00 tswett: It isn't fun if it's already been done, unfun things are cheating, so you cheated 04:36:00 Can we do it modulo 3? 04:36:22 Which modulo 3? 04:36:34 Hmm does my approach introduce an asymetry between a and b? 04:36:42 |#|=i. Someone deal with that. 04:36:48 That would be displeasing 04:36:55 -!- bender| has joined. 04:36:56 -!- bender| has quit (Changing host). 04:36:56 -!- bender| has joined. 04:37:03 Oh 04:37:06 Hi bender| 04:37:56 hp, does your equation produce an integer? 04:38:14 Zhₙ(a, b) ∀(n, a, b) ∋ ℂ 04:38:14 hi 04:38:40 (Zh being an extended hyperoperation) 04:38:53 Let & be such that |&| = & and & is not zero or positive. 04:39:10 bender|: You wouldn't happen to have any ideas as to how that could work, would you? 04:39:25 Can we do this with some other function? Instead of |x|, why not sinc(x)? 04:40:53 I have decided that "@" (the character, not the number) is now called the "atpersand" in my book, "Arbitrary Names for Arbitrary Things". 04:41:35 Sgeo: tswett: We need to think about what signum means for our special numbers 04:41:44 signum? 04:41:47 If we want to keep the relation x = signum(x)|x| 04:41:50 at person and other things 04:41:54 sgn()? 04:42:06 FreeFull, good point 04:42:21 hppavilion[1], tells you whether a number is negative, positive, or zero. 04:42:31 hppavilion[1]: Yeah 04:42:34 For the complex numbers, sgn(x) = x/|x|. 04:42:34 Sgeo: So sgn() then? 04:42:39 Can be defined as |x|/x if x != 0. This obviously may no longer be accurate 04:42:48 Also applies to the real numbers. 04:42:52 tswett: and sgn(0) = 0 04:42:53 What about the c@mplex numbers? 04:42:57 |x|/x doesn't work for the complex numbers. 04:43:15 FreeFull: on my blog, sgn(0) is undefined. 04:43:23 Oh didn't realize there's a difference between |x|/x and x/|x| 04:43:40 i/|i| is i, |i|/i is 1/i which is -i. 04:44:08 tswett: Wait, what? 04:44:14 @ = sgn(@)|@|; @ = -sgn(@); sgn(@) = -@ 04:44:14 1/i=-i!? 04:44:29 Interesting 04:44:30 Yes, because i * -i = -(i * i) = -(-1) = 1. 04:44:34 All right. I should go to bed a couple of hours ago. 04:44:35 @/-1 = -@ 04:44:35 Unknown command, try @list 04:44:36 Night, everyone. 04:44:41 Looks good 04:44:42 Night tswett 04:44:47 @night 04:44:47 Unknown command, try @list 04:44:56 `loudly sleep tight 04:44:57 ​sleep tight 04:45:05 Guhni 04:45:34 Sgeo: So what's sgn(-@)? 04:45:36 @? 04:46:07 I think so. @ * |-@| = -@ 04:46:15 Assuming we preserve the property that sgn(x) = -x which probably isn't a property now that I think about it? 04:46:25 Wait 04:46:35 @*|-@| = -@? 04:46:35 Unknown command, try @list 04:46:48 |-@| = -1, right? 04:46:50 |-@| = 1, correct? 04:46:57 Huh 04:47:03 *Uh 04:47:09 |-@| = -1 04:47:10 Wait 04:47:13 Absolute value 04:47:14 Right 04:47:53 So yes, @*|-@|=@*-1=-@ 04:47:59 Discovery! 04:48:00 WhoO! 04:48:06 s/O/o/! 04:48:14 I think the sgn thing is the most solid thing we have 04:48:29 Should you put it in a formal document and publish it? 04:49:10 I would call the document "Making up numbers: A study of studying solutions to undefined algebraic expressions" 04:49:34 (because @ is the solution to the "formerly" undefined algebraic expression |x|=-1, of course) 04:52:20 Here's your next assignment: sin(@), cos(@), tan(@) xD 04:53:15 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 04:53:37 adieu 04:53:45 -!- bb010g has joined. 04:54:12 |a + b@| = 2a - sqrt(a^2 + b^2); |4 + 3@| = 8 - sqrt(16 + 9 = 25) = 8 - 5 = 3 04:54:37 Seems a bit odd to me 04:55:28 What's Zh[@](a, b)? 04:55:34 I have no idea what Zh means 04:55:53 Zh is the extended hyperoperations xD 04:55:54 -!- fowl has joined. 04:56:11 tswett's approach gives meaningful definition to addition, where I just leave them in current form 04:56:28 in pseudohaskell: 04:56:43 Nevermind 04:56:53 I imagine you understand the hyperoperations xD 04:57:22 MEh 04:58:00 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperoperation#Definition 04:58:30 H n a b = 04:58:42 |n==0: b+1 04:58:59 |n==1 and b==0: a 04:59:11 |n==2 and b==0: 0 04:59:22 n>=3 and b==0: 1 04:59:31 s/ / |/ 04:59:55 |else: H n-1 a H n-1 a b-1 05:00:07 I probably should've put some parenthesis in that last one 05:00:19 H n-1 a (H n-1 a b-1) 05:00:55 That's only reasonably impossible to read 05:01:24 Is it possible to use normal HTTP proxies rather than CONNECT proxies for HTTPS in Firefox? 05:01:32 No clue 05:01:40 zzo38: not really 05:02:01 zzo38: the proxy can't issue a valid certificate, nor can it negotiate a connection on your behalf 05:02:13 I want to define a new function called Zh[n](a, b) which defines the hyperoperation for as many possible numbers as possible 05:02:35 Starting with the c@mplexes (a+bi+c@+di@) 05:02:40 I don't see how to attempt to prove a contradiction in any of the |a + b@| definitions 05:02:48 Or at least the complexes. 05:02:54 Maybe there aren't any 05:03:02 Maybe you've just invented an entirely new type of number 05:03:15 coppro: The proxy shouldn't need to issue a certificate in such a case 05:03:16 Maybe you're one of the greatest genii of our generations 05:03:16 There are some definitions that are bad though. 05:03:38 |a + b@| = -a really, really sucks as a definition 05:03:40 Such as? 05:03:44 zzo38: you need a certificate for HTTPS though. that's the point 05:03:48 Oh yeah 05:03:51 That's pretty bad 05:04:01 I mean it should send "GET https://example.org/ HTTP/1.1" to the proxy server if you request https://example.org/ and otherwise ignore the HTTPS stuff and delegate all such stuff to the proy server to handle instead 05:04:32 (But it should be an option; you should also be allowed to use CONNECT proxies if you wish to handle encryption on the client instead) 05:04:39 I thought it equaled |a|+|b@|=|a|-b 05:05:12 Or is that not how it works? 05:05:47 |@|=-1 is actually one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen 05:05:49 If b can be c@mplex, you'd get |a| + |@@| = |a| - @ and I don't think we've attempted to get @ absolute values 05:06:02 To allow it by another kind of PAC response perhaps 05:06:24 Sgeo: So is c@mplesx of the form (a+bi+c@+di@) or (a+b@)? 05:06:38 I'd love to get to that first one eventually 05:06:50 I would love to see it happen. 05:06:54 No sarcasm. 05:07:01 I hope I live long enough to see this become a thing 05:07:07 Even though it probably won't 05:07:16 |a + bi + c@| seems easy enough with my approach at least. 05:07:26 zzo38: that would not work, because the proxy will not handle https 05:07:32 I think a+b@ is the atoids, I believe 05:07:57 -!- Jenkins3 has joined. 05:08:13 -!- Jenkins3 has left ("Leaving"). 05:08:14 |a + bi + c@| = 2*sqrt(a^2 + b^2) - sqrt(a^2 + b^2 + c^2) 05:08:16 I used a PAC file with the "file:" scheme and it works, even though Wikipedia says to publish to HTTP server; but using a local file is going to be faster and more versatile and more secure too. 05:08:24 zzo38: I suppose it is technically possible but it would be bad to accept it 05:08:25 Sgeo: Can you make a formal document describing what you've discovered so far about @? 05:08:32 hppavilion[1], not tonight 05:08:36 Well, not necessarily formal 05:08:38 coppro: Well, many proxies don't, but a few proxies do, so in the cases where it does, it would be accepted. 05:08:38 How about an informal one. 05:08:43 I just need a list of the equations 05:08:44 because it would not actually be a secure connection and the client software should not lie to its user like that 05:08:52 (Of course the proxy could be localhost if you want to) 05:09:04 Starting with the bases and explaining the highlights of what you've derived from it 05:09:12 coppro: It doesn't lie; the user must program the proxy explicitly. 05:09:26 zzo38: but even so, they would assume an https connection is secure 05:09:29 -!- krator44 has joined. 05:09:35 If it requires a PAC file loaded with the "file:" scheme then it is more safe 05:09:55 It can be made to refuse to do that if the PAC is loaded from any other scheme 05:09:55 doing that would give neither an encrypted connection, since the connection to the proxy would be unencrypted, nor validation of the server certificate 05:10:12 coppro: The proxy would validate the certificate if that is wanted. 05:10:27 hppavilion[1], http://oeis.org <---huge list 05:10:32 a) the client can't trust the proxy's validation 05:10:44 b) the proxy has no way to communicate that it rejects the proxy's assessment 05:10:45 err 05:10:48 that it rejects the certificate 05:10:50 coppro: The user would have to implicitly trust it when configuring the proxy 05:10:54 I think there's a weird shape defined as |x + y@| = 0 05:11:04 blurelIse: Of what? 05:11:13 equations for integer sequences 05:11:19 I know what oeis is, but it's a list of what particularly in this case? 05:11:20 Oh 05:11:36 I was just asking for the @teger sequences 05:11:38 And such 05:12:00 ah 05:12:34 well, if anything it also gives you a general layout for publishing without a paper 05:12:35 Not sequences so much as equations 05:13:11 each sequence has an equation that creates it, so theres all sorts of fun stuff in there 05:13:24 RIight ,right 05:13:33 I've been to oeis before -_- 05:14:03 great 05:14:14 * blurelIse goes back to being useless :D 05:14:41 You could return a 5xx error or 4xx error or whatever in case of certificate errors. 05:15:21 (Possibly 502) 05:15:44 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:17:22 zzo38: this seems inferior to CONNECT 05:21:06 I think the old |a+b@| played nicely with throwing random garbage in there, I'm not sure if this one will 05:21:53 |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi| might behave differently in edge cases, so let's use this 05:22:15 Actually that i could complicate the issue... hm don't know what do 05:22:40 -!- Frooxius has joined. 05:23:05 |@ + @| = 2@ - |@ + i| = ???; 2@ - sqrt(@^2 + 1) = ??? 05:23:35 |@+@|=2@ or |@+@|=|2@| 05:23:39 ? 05:24:01 The latter, but trying to see if my definition breaks 05:24:19 Oh 05:24:26 I missed the |@+i| 05:24:38 Oooh 05:24:40 @+i 05:24:40 Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bid bf @ ? . 05:25:04 2@ - sqrt(@^2 + 1) = -2; 2@ = sqrt(@^2 + 1); 4@^2 = @^2 + 1; 3@^2 = 1; @^2 = 1/3 = what? 05:25:05 Getting into c@mplex numbers now, are we? 05:25:14 hppavilion[1], not really 05:25:27 Stress-testing definitions 05:25:32 @+i is a c@mplex number 05:25:32 Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bid bf @ ? . 05:25:34 coppro: In some ways it is, but it also allows you to do some stuff that you might want to do otherwise 05:25:49 hppavilion[1], yeah, so I'm going to stay away from using that definition 05:25:59 Was using the |a+bi| thing as a shortcut to say 2d distance 05:26:33 Maybe I just actually want a vararg dist() function 05:26:48 But if I say dist() always returns positive, we end up right back where we started 05:27:50 You know what, I might go back to that one that used || with imaginary 05:28:05 |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi| 05:28:16 For example if you want to ignore some certificate errors or if you want to modify the headers or make a backup copy, then you can program the proxy to do such thing. This feature can be useful if it is a LAN proxy you can make a shared cache 05:28:46 Well, to match my intuitions, I want |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi| = 2a - |ai+b| 05:29:10 Of course for security purposes it should not be allowed in non-local PAC files 05:29:31 I think I also want |a+b@| = - |a@+b| 05:30:25 Well the latter is a good restriction we can push any definition against 05:31:25 |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi| = - |a@+b| = -2b + |ai+b| ? 05:31:40 2a - |a+bi| = -2b + |ai + b| ? 05:31:58 Assuming a and b are real, that's a question that doesn't involve @ at all, which is nice 05:34:13 2a + 2b = |a+bi| + |ai + b|; Uh I have no idea how to proceed from here 05:35:25 a=1; 2 = 1 + |i| = 2. 05:35:34 For a second I forgot that a was 1 and thought it was 2 05:39:00 The other way around should also be allowed; if you want to connect to a insecure server (of any protocol) using a CONNECT proxy that should be allowed too 05:39:24 -!- variable has joined. 05:39:29 -!- krator44 has left. 05:40:17 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:41:55 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:43:01 -!- lemurian has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:47:11 Maybe if I can set the ALLOWS_PROXY_HTTP flag on the "https:" scheme will that allow it to work how I wanted it to work? 05:51:37 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 05:54:12 -!- adu has joined. 05:56:57 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:57:50 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 05:59:30 Maybe numbers of the form a + bi + c@ + di@ are just 4-dimensional? 06:00:48 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:05:35 Let @1 and @2 be two different numbers. |a + b@1| = |a| - |b|; |a + b@2| = 2a - |a + bi|; |a + x@1| = |a + @2|; |a| - |x| = 2a - |a + i|; |x| - |a| = |a + i| - 2a; |x| = |a + i| + |a|; Guess not. Was speculating that maybe the definitions just resulted in subtly different @ values along the same dimension 06:07:52 I think though that this suggests that both definitions might be reasonable? 06:11:32 |x + y@| = 0; 2x - |x + yi| = 0; Wolfram Alpha hates this, how about 2x - sqrt(x^2 + y^2) = 0? Wow this is stunningly boring: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2x+-+sqrt%28x%5E2+%2B+y%5E2%29+%3D+0 06:26:29 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: WALRUS MAAAAAAAAAAAAN). 06:45:41 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:46:36 Sgeo: So out of curiosity, how is defining a variable such that |x|=-1 different from defining a variable such that, for example, x+y!=y+x? 06:46:50 (Really just playing Devil's Advocate here) 06:48:53 hppavilion[1], redefining |x| will likely break less stuff (this is different from the 'poetic' way of defining a variable x such that |x|=-1 because absolute value is defined to be positive. Making a similar but not same operation as abs and calling it abs isn't so impossible. Doing that for equality or addition would likely result in an operation that behaved significantly differently from equality or addition) 06:49:15 Incidentally, depending on what you mean by *, a*b isn't always b*a 06:49:34 If a and b are quaternions, the way multiplication is defined on them the order makes a difference 06:49:37 I said + 06:49:39 Not * 06:49:59 But yes, I know about quaternions 06:50:13 And octonions don't even satisfy associative 06:50:38 So how's it work for sedenions? Do they not even satisfy closure? xD 06:50:46 closure? 06:51:36 * variable glares at hppavilion[1] 06:51:53 Yeah 06:51:54 * variable changes hppavilion[0] 06:52:21 You /do/ realize hppavilion[1] is a pythonic array index, correct? 06:52:49 Isn't closure the property that if you perform multiplication/addition on two numbers of the same type, they come out to the same type of number? 06:53:21 hppavilion[1], was slightly unfamiliar with the term, I'm not a professional mathematician 06:53:25 y+z -) C Ay,z -) C? 06:53:34 To use a crude notation 06:53:40 I think I would have recognized "closed over operation" more readily 06:53:45 (A being forall, -) being sets) 06:53:49 Ah 06:54:10 I'm not a professional mathematician eihter, just a guy who reads too much wikipedia on mathxD 06:54:19 s/hx/h x/ 06:54:45 s/ teh / the /gi 06:54:58 I HAVE JUST FIXED 20% OF TYPOS 06:59:56 I also am not a real mathematician but I like to study many mathematical thing in Wikipedia and in the book and my own stuff by myself 07:10:04 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 07:21:08 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:21:26 \oren\: I think you haven't regenerated the image preview of the fontdemo 07:23:35 -!- ^v has joined. 07:51:24 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:54:06 zzo38: I am not sure where the line is between not a real mathematician and a real mathematician 07:54:20 -!- adu has joined. 07:55:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:55:24 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 07:57:44 -!- variable has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero). 08:04:25 it's a complex issue 08:13:11 -!- JesseH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:13:18 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:16:04 scientific rigor 08:16:18 once you lose that, you're just a numerologist 08:29:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:31:26 I do not belong to any university and have never been published in a mathematical journal, therefore I must be not quite a real mathematician 08:32:02 i got published on oeis, but im also not a real mathematician 08:33:32 then again idk if thats really considered being published 08:47:27 By the way, the title of the latest OOTS strip (1006) is "Uninterrupted Torment", which sounds like it should be a M:tG card name. 08:47:31 But it's not. 08:47:50 There's "Everlasting Torment" and "Neverending Torment" 08:50:10 -!- Patashu has joined. 08:52:19 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:53:15 -!- FreeFull has joined. 08:54:46 -!- int-e has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:58:56 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 09:00:29 -!- heddwch has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:01:00 -!- heddwch has joined. 09:21:32 Why the heck does the new mulligan rule and reminders about it on http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles don't have a reminder text about "scry"? I mean, I know it's in Theros and Magic Origins, but it's not an evergreen mechanic, and won't appear in all sets. They should add a reminder text. 09:23:14 Oh, good! Apparently the actual text that goes to the Comp Rules will not say "scry", it will spell out the action. 09:23:21 It's only the announcements that are stupid. 09:24:33 And the comp rules also makes it clear when exactly you scry, namely after everyone has kept their opening hand, but before other turn zero actions. 09:30:35 The comp rules update bulletin isn't up yet though. 09:31:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:48:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:59:17 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 10:03:34 -!- sc00fy has joined. 10:13:51 -!- int-e has joined. 10:14:19 -!- mauris has joined. 10:14:30 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 10:16:48 -!- mauris has quit (Client Quit). 10:26:15 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:31:47 -!- mauris has joined. 10:35:17 -!- boily has joined. 10:38:32 Welp, that was a new kind of personal conveyance device for me. It looked like a segway without the stick. Or a skateboard with two big wheels on either ends, except perpendicular. 10:39:06 I think I've seen some like that 10:41:29 "if (*p_state == BORED) { free(boredom); *p_state = be_challenged(); } says an ad on this train. 10:42:06 so, be_challenged returns an enum 10:44:37 I already switched trains, so I can't be sure if they assigned p_state or *p_state. 10:44:55 fizzie: I think that could lead to things going wrong 10:45:01 Possibly even segfaults! 10:46:27 It was for these guys http://www.cambridgeconsultants.com/ 10:46:41 Oh! I know someone who used to work for them 10:47:26 [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44380&oldid=42799 * Martin Büttner * (+911) 10:47:52 Taneb: doing marketing? 10:48:02 Software, probably 10:48:48 those "let's make our advert look like code" things often have code that couldn't possibly work 10:49:02 also, what sort of variable name is "p_state"? 10:50:03 ais523: the state of the peas 10:50:30 or of the pee 10:52:09 "free(boredom)" in a conditional block is dubious at best. 10:52:52 maybe be-challenged does something with it. but it has to be global then 10:53:02 global boredom 10:53:04 it could be that p_state is tracking the allocation status of boredom? 10:53:18 -!- FreeFull has joined. 10:54:01 in that case, calling a function and rely on that may not be the best idea 10:54:53 Maybe be_challenged does other things 10:55:15 It's true that programming in C is a very exciting and challenging activity. 10:55:30 Like, I don't know, chooses a random activity and returns that 10:55:37 if p_state keeps track of the allocation status, it should do the if itself 10:59:13 On that note, someone should make an esolang out of defect report 260 10:59:18 http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_260.htm 11:01:39 I love the way they use (free) just in case free is a macro 11:01:57 how does that help? 11:02:36 it probably doesn't, but I like it anyway 11:02:58 Jafet: fwiw, some compilers have been caught comparing two pointers as equal, but having assignments through one not affect the value readable through the other 11:03:25 ais523: is that when they compare only offset values? I think that's sometimes even valid 11:03:46 b_jonas: no 11:04:33 Would that let them become Turing complete through the back door? 11:04:33 the code is something like: x = malloc(sizeof *x); free(x); y = malloc(sizeof *x); if (x == y) { *x = 1; *y = 2; printf("%d", *x); } 11:04:35 and it prints 1 11:04:53 on some versions of clang 11:05:04 (add declarations, main, etc. to produce a complete program) 11:05:34 that's insane 11:06:33 That's undefined behaviour I think 11:06:34 ais523: uh... ok, dunno, I'll leave the language lawyers to figure out how they have to write those kinds of rules 11:06:58 b_jonas: Jafet's link is about this 11:07:07 (language lawyers discussing this situation) 11:07:16 Taneb: since x and y have identical values, why is it any less defined than using y only? 11:07:19 yes, I know. I think I'd rather not go into this. 11:07:20 Taneb: it is indeed undefined behaviour, but some people are surprised by the way that clang happens to interpret it 11:07:33 Jafet: I didn't say it was unsurprising 11:07:37 The crazy unions and memcpys were enough for me as for C magic. 11:08:18 the official standards response about this sort of thing was: "The C Standard lays down no requirement that two inspections of the bits representing a given value will observe the same bit-pattern only that the observed pattern on each occasion will be a valid representation of the value." 11:08:43 it was a bit longer, actually 11:08:59 the official explanation seems to be that as x is a pointer to freed memory, its actual value is allowed to change spontaneously 11:09:48 (i.e. x itself can change spontaneously, in addition to *x) 11:10:36 ais523: right. this is the strange kind of thing where if you write (in a function scope) int x; int y = x; that might cause undefined behaviour because x is uninitialized and can be of a trap value and even copying that trap value can cause UB 11:10:53 Well, since x gets an unspecified value, *x is undefined 11:10:54 b_jonas: and Itanium is one platform where that actually happens 11:11:03 because it's such a strange value that, like, even reading it into a register can be a problem, or the electrons are not cleaned up, or something? 11:11:20 ais523: um, what happens excatly? 11:11:26 The B5000 was a CPU where you'd get this regularly, I believe 11:11:37 It had only one native type, double precision floating point 11:11:38 b_jonas: so on Itanium, fetching a memory address can give you a deferred exception 11:11:47 And all other types were defined to be subsets of it 11:12:01 and then attempting to read the register that you were trying to store the value in sets off the actual exception 11:12:20 ais523: I think it's a pState that's been turned from camelCase to under_scores. 11:12:26 ais523: um, but it's not permitted in C if you read a char, or an unsigned char, which is why memcpy works on even an uninitialized area (it conceptually copies chars or something similar, though the implementation may of course do whatever) 11:12:27 so suppose the previous function did something like «if (x) {printf("%d", *x);}» 11:12:40 and x was NULL 11:12:48 ais523: um, "fetching a memory address" can sure be bda if you're reading through a wrong pointer 11:12:59 on Itanium, the usual implementation would be to load x /before/ the test 11:13:06 err, to load *x 11:13:08 ais523: but here the address is valid, x is a local variable. reading it bytewise would be ok in C. 11:13:09 specifying a deferred exception 11:13:26 oh, you mean through pointers. 11:13:29 now, suppose you call into a new function, and it chooses the same /register/ for x 11:13:40 attempting to do anything with x, other than assigning a new value to it, will cause the null pointer exception to happen 11:13:58 err, suppose it chooses the register for x that it previously chose for *x 11:14:17 ais523: ah, ok. 11:14:22 if x happens to be stored in memory (very unlikely for a local variable on Itanium) the problem couldn't happen 11:14:41 which is why any argument involving pointers to x will miss the point (because that would force it into memory) 11:15:03 well, for this simple code, int x; int y = x; with nothing between, the compiler will probably see what you're doing rightaway. 11:16:36 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:16:56 I'd be surprised if a compiler looked at that code and thought "hmm, I need to force x into memory" 11:18:54 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 11:19:21 b_jonas: yes, it will see undefined behaviour and optimise out all code that follows after that 11:19:37 ah right, the gcc approach to UB 11:19:46 https://people.csail.mit.edu/nickolai/papers/wang-undef-2012-08-21.pdf 11:19:52 (section 2.7) 11:21:55 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:23:16 Jafet: and possibly give a warning, unless it can prove the code unreachable anyway 11:31:23 -!- boily has quit (Quit: OVERCOAT CHICKEN). 11:56:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:26:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 12:29:24 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:29:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:54:54 -!- S1 has joined. 12:58:23 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:59:00 Hehe, hilarious bug: http://meta.stackexchange.com/q/266830/222298 12:59:18 404? 12:59:23 yes, deleted since 12:59:30 Ah 13:00:16 it's a security bug where typing a particular magic sequence in a chat room on chat.meta.stackexchange.com notifies everyone who has been in the chatroom the last seven days in their SE-wide inbox. 13:00:34 how come? 13:00:37 you're supposed to be able to notify only a particular user you name in a chat message normally 13:00:48 S1: no idea, the SE employees are debugging it right now 13:00:52 it's a very new bug 13:00:56 b_jonas: why would you link to a 404 page? you can't find useful information via it 13:01:04 ais523: it wasn't 404 yet when I linked 13:01:07 ah right 13:01:10 got deleted quickly because people would abuse it 13:01:17 it includes the actual character sequence 13:01:42 (or you may have a high enough rep on meta to be able to view a "deleted" question) 13:01:50 hmm, like the sequence of 12 characters that crashes Chrome? (when you try to visit it as an URL or mousehover over an anchor that links to it like an URL) 13:02:05 dunno 13:02:51 this one is 13 bytes long 13:03:06 might be 13? 13:03:15 I'm trying to remember what the sequence is, now 13:03:18 ais523: Which one was that? (the 12 char sequence) 13:03:23 Oh 13:03:23 I tried it in Chromium and it acted oddly but didn't crash 13:03:24 um, I mean the one that pings people on SE chat 13:03:28 ah right 13:03:32 I don't know about the Chromium one 13:03:55 IIRC it was something like http:// and a NUL byte, double-URL-encoded 13:04:09 but the second layer of URL encoding didn't encode all the characters, just some of them 13:04:22 that probably narrows it down to enough possibilities to find it by brute force 13:04:40 they probably fixed that since 13:04:42 http://%%30%30 perhaps, although that's 14 13:05:01 b_jonas: well the bug was reportedly with Chrome, and I tried it in Chromium just after it became public and didn't get a crash 13:06:16 dunno, this reminds me to the very old bug around windows 95 where in MSIE following a link to file://C|/con/con would hang the machine. that was back when any external webpage could just have a clickable link to the file:// protocol 13:06:23 -!- bender| has changed nick to vladmir_lenin. 13:06:33 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1). 13:06:51 but then, windows 95 had tons of similar easy bugs, including ones much easier to exploit, like packets that crashed the networking system 13:07:15 b_jonas: in IE 4 I created a recursive frameset once 13:07:22 "will undelete when I've pushed the fix" says an admin, so my link will be valid 13:07:27 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:07:38 which crashed Explorer (not just IE; Explorer's the process that handles the desktop, Start menu, etc.) 13:07:56 -!- vladmir_lenin has changed nick to bender. 13:08:03 given that ctrl-alt-delete was disabled on the computers I tested it on, doing anything from there (including logging out) became quite awkward 13:08:11 ok 13:11:28 ais523: that was on what operating system? 13:11:43 I assume Windows 95, not sure though 13:11:45 might have been 98 13:12:22 on windows 95, such a bug would probably leave the whole system unstable because not enough memory protection separating the processes. 13:12:36 it would possibly just crash the whole system. 13:13:01 on windows 98, I think you'd just press control-escape to launch the task manager (if explorer isn't running), and restart explorer from there. 13:18:36 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 13:18:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:18:45 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Changing host). 13:18:45 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 13:19:51 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 13:25:32 -!- nycs has joined. 13:25:32 -!- nycs has changed nick to `^_^v. 13:26:21 -!- XorSwap has joined. 13:33:49 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 13:33:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:34:02 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 13:39:52 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude. 13:45:41 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:53:44 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:00:55 -!- TieSoul has joined. 14:01:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: meeting). 14:18:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:32:09 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:51:22 -!- adu has joined. 15:11:22 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 15:24:48 -!- Frooxius has joined. 15:33:53 -!- heddwch has changed nick to hindi_me_soup. 15:34:22 -!- hindi_me_soup has changed nick to heddwch. 15:36:59 -!- mauris has joined. 15:48:28 -!- adu has joined. 15:49:40 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:59:02 -!- Frooxius has joined. 16:08:28 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:10:04 -!- bender has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:10:58 -!- Vorpal has joined. 16:17:56 -!- zadock has joined. 16:19:58 -!- JesseH has joined. 16:20:47 -!- zadock has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:23:20 -!- diginet_ has joined. 16:24:20 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:24:20 -!- myname has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:24:22 -!- diginet has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:24:32 -!- myname has joined. 16:28:10 -!- atrapado has joined. 16:32:31 Y'know, for the most part, it should be possible to play Magic over IRC. 16:32:44 As long as the players trust each other. 16:33:34 I can only think of one effect that wouldn't work, and that's looking at your opponent's library. 16:45:22 With proper program to do the stuff you could implement it even without as much trusting each other as normal, and allow looking in opponent's library 16:49:06 tswett: looking at face-down exiled cards your opponent controls 16:50:44 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 16:51:01 Yup. 16:51:19 Hellu 16:53:21 [wiki] [[Template:Main article]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44381 * Hppavilion1 * (+28) Created Template 16:53:36 I CAN'T STOP 16:55:49 [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44382&oldid=44379 * Hppavilion1 * (+249) Main article 16:55:54 I just did a solo test run of this deck. 16:55:55 I was able to kill a passive opponent in only 14 turns. 16:55:55 Woulda been nice if I hadn't missed the first four land drops. 16:57:41 [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44383&oldid=44382 * Hppavilion1 * (-79) Removed an accidentally inserted raw link 16:57:56 tswett: Whoa? 16:58:02 Can't tell if that's good xD 16:59:41 That's terrible. 17:00:18 I haven't been keeping track of game lengths. I think killing your opponent on turn 4 is pretty good. 17:00:19 OK 17:00:26 Ah 17:00:44 Not defeating your opponent until turn 14 is reasonable if you're playing a highly defensive deck. 17:01:06 Assuming that your opponent actually does something, which my imaginary opponent was not. 17:01:10 And this is supposed to be a highly aggressive deck. 17:01:19 I really shoulda taken a mulligan. 17:01:21 tswett: turn 14 goldfish is /not/ good if you're anything other than a control deck 17:02:15 the accepted turncount for a goldfish is 4 in Modern and 3 in Legacy, typically around 5 or 6 in Standard but it's just about to get shaken up so who knows 17:02:47 where this doesn't necessarily mean winning, but rather doing something that would place you clearly in control of the game against a real opponent (winning is one way to do this but there are others) 17:02:56 So maybe I should aim for 4 or 5 for the goldfish. 17:03:07 which format is this? 17:03:19 Standard. 17:03:42 Let's redo that goldfish. 17:04:16 remember that the mulligan rule changes in a few days' time 17:04:21 you should probably be testing with the new one 17:04:56 Oh yeah. 17:11:29 That time I made it on turn 6. Much better, but this still kinda felt weak. 17:13:53 I wonder what happens if I just make a deck entirely out of creatures with mana cost no more than 3. 17:14:23 tswett: a typical creature aggro deck has most of its creatures at mana cost 1 or 2 17:14:26 plus some burn 17:14:31 or other way to end the game 17:14:31 You should need some mana source too 17:14:35 they tend to be red, as a result 17:15:11 the white version has nearly all its creatures at converted mana cost 2, takes a little longer to win, and tries to pick creature abilities to slow down the opponent 17:18:47 It might be a good idea to put in a mountain or two. 17:18:52 Or twenty or thirty. 17:21:15 hmm 17:21:20 Now, Flooded Strand says, "T, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Flooded Strand: Search your library for a Plains or Island card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library." 17:21:30 23 is the accepted number for most monocolor decks, but pure aggro decks can go with less 17:21:40 I think 19 is quite common? maybe 20 17:21:58 Tranquil Cove says, "Tranquil Cove enters the battlefield tapped. When Tranquil Cove enters the battlefield, you gain 1 life. T: Add W or U to your mana pool." 17:22:36 It seems to me like Flooded Strand has several disadvantages; the only advantage is that you can get one mana the same turn that you play it. 17:22:45 -!- sc00fy has joined. 17:22:49 -!- bb010g has joined. 17:22:50 Yet Flooded Strand is much much more expensive than Tranquil Cove. 17:23:06 Is Flooded Strand in fact significantly better than Tranquil Cove? 17:23:06 I think I've invented a programming language that requires a supercomputer of Googlic proportions (or at least a high-end beowulf cluster) to make it work well and fast 17:23:09 Flooded Strand is way better. 17:23:16 tswett: it is, and for three reasons 17:23:33 a) flooded strand gives you mana immediately, which in tempo-driven formats is important 17:24:37 b) flooded strand gets a plains or island, not a /basic/ plains or island; thus, if you have appropriate dual lands in your deck, it produces two colours, and you get a free choice of one and a choice from two of the other (i.e. 7 of the 10 pairs) 17:25:03 c) flooded strand is part of a number of combos, some of which define legacy (most of them rely on either the fact that it puts a card in your graveyard, or the fact that it shuffles your library) 17:25:18 (although some of the combos in standard rely on the fact that it puts two lands into play on the same turn) 17:25:26 Analogy:Simile, that is 17:25:28 there aer a few combos with tranquil cove but they have a much lower power level 17:25:39 Ah. Neat. 17:26:12 fetchland (i.e. flooded strand and friends) + brainstorm is found in a very high proportion of legacy decks 17:26:15 basically all the ones that run blue 17:26:38 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:26:47 I think Analogy:Simile is going to run on neural networks 17:27:04 It will use R-like data handling properties to detect correlations 17:27:43 -!- heddwch has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:27:55 A file will be a renamed .tar.gz archive containing a ".ats" file which would be the main file and a "meta.zfg" or something that would define the properties of the neural network 17:31:06 So if my deck has some Plateaus, some Savannahs, some Scrublands, some Tropical Islands, some Tundras, some Underground Seas, and some Volcanic Islands, then Flooded Strand will easily let me get any type of mana. 17:32:34 Of course, each of those would cost me about seventy bucks. 17:33:36 Or a couple hundred. 17:35:43 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:36:33 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:37:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:39:50 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:40:00 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:41:43 -!- heddwch has joined. 17:41:45 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:44:01 -!- heddwch has quit (Excess Flood). 17:44:15 -!- heddwch has joined. 17:45:43 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:51:18 Okay, lemme try out this funky reduced deck. 17:51:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 17:52:02 I'm back. There was a test. 17:52:51 -!- heddwch has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:57:30 -!- heddwch has joined. 17:58:17 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:59:39 Turn 6 goldfish, turn 9 goldfish, turn 6 goldfish, turn 6 goldfish, turn 6 goldfish. 17:59:55 that… is still not very good, if it's using the entire set of all cards ever 18:00:05 I mean, it's Standard. 18:00:13 But I think that's still not very good. 18:00:14 ah right 18:00:38 Well, you did say 5 or 6 for a goldfish. 18:00:51 Given that this is aggro, presumably I'd want to average 5 or under. 18:01:42 Lemme look for things I might want to add... 18:02:28 One kind of card to make up might be: Fateseal 1, and then target opponent draws a card. 18:02:44 -!- sc00fy has joined. 18:03:03 zzo38: a) that isn't strong; b) Wizards refuse to print fateseal nowadays on the basis that people don't like playing against it 18:05:52 I know it isn't very strong, but if the mana cost is low enough then it does not have to be, and/or if it is usable more than once possibly (costing "{1U}, {T}" on an artifact or land or whatever) 18:06:20 zzo38: I think the mana cost would have to be about -3 before that was usable 18:06:24 maybe less 18:06:35 actually it's probably usable at -2 18:06:40 some decks would want that, most wouldn't 18:08:11 It is overpowered at a negative cost; the minimum possible cost should be {0} 18:08:29 zzo38: have you seen Simian Spirit Guide? 18:08:33 that sort-of has a cost of {-R} 18:08:44 and even then has an alternate mode of casting 18:08:47 Oh, that's a cute name. Goblin Kaboomist. 18:08:52 there are a few decks that use it, most don't want that effect though 18:09:53 ais523: I have seen it, that is a bit different. 18:10:18 You can earn mana or summon a creature, not both. 18:10:19 "As an addition cost to cast ~, add {U} to your mana pool." 18:10:23 Is there such a card? 18:10:30 additional 18:10:30 I don't know 18:11:03 shachaf: no 18:11:18 zzo38: indeed 18:11:26 Any abilities, maybe? 18:11:28 however basically nobody summons a creature with the card outside Limited 18:11:39 In theory costs can be anything, I suppose. 18:11:42 it's basically a card that does nothing for {-R}, and has an alternative mode of paying {2}{R} for a 2/2 18:11:59 whoa, http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122123 18:12:11 shachaf: it'd help if you stated the card's name rather than just the link 18:12:16 True. 18:12:18 so I can know what card it is without having to wait for Gatherer to load 18:12:19 Braid of Fire 18:12:30 only works during your upkeep 18:12:39 "As an additional cost to play this card, you win the game." 18:12:39 that said, I'd still love to see someone break that card 18:12:41 Yes. 18:12:44 Sometimes Gatherer links have a name rather than a multiverseid. 18:12:45 but the timing restriction makes it difficult 18:13:00 Countering it doesn't work; you win the game before your opponent gets priority. 18:13:50 I would *definitely* play the card I just mentioned at a cost of -2; I think that is way too small and at {0} it would be good as an instant. (Forcing opponent to draw card if it cannot be used as an instant isn't quite as good) 18:16:27 Looking at cards like http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Adarkar+Unicorn I have to remember that mana burn used to exist. 18:17:06 And, for that matter, I guess it existed for Braid of Fire too. 18:17:28 Ah yes. Mana abilities that you can play as an interrupt. 18:18:24 shachaf: Braid of Fire was in standard at the same time as storage lands, which conveniently have an ability that becomes "{1}: add {0} to your mana pool" if played with X=0 18:18:31 That was when they had interrupt; all mana abilities were interrupts, on lands they were implicitly interrupts I think but on other cards they are not implicitly interrupts 18:18:51 interrupts left before Braid of Fire arrived by a /long/ way, though 18:18:53 -!- XorSwap has joined. 18:19:02 (Coldsnap may be part of Ice Age block, but it was released much later and retconned in) 18:19:45 Hmm, there are some interesting cumulative upkeeps out there. 18:19:48 http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Herald+of+Leshrac 18:20:00 -!- MDude has joined. 18:20:02 Ah, an early version of the mana ability rule: "Adding mana to your mana pool is always considered an interrupt." 18:20:26 shachaf: that's one of my favourites 18:20:50 hmm, the one with "cumulative upkeep: target opponent gains one life" seems like it'd be really good in Commander, which is all about politics 18:23:47 And don't forget this: 18:23:49 "By mutual consent, players may agree not to play for ante. This is recommended until you get a feel for the game." 18:25:35 Is there a copy of the old rules on the computer? I would find it very useful for use with old Magic: the Puzzling 18:26:02 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:26:23 http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/jc20 - the original rules 18:26:54 http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Reality+Twist 18:30:13 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:31:31 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:32:58 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:33:08 Is there a copy of the Fourth Edition rules though? 18:33:34 I don't know. 18:33:42 Is there such a thing as mana that can be used for any color? 18:34:20 I want to make a language like Rocket 18:34:46 One that uses plenty of instrucitons, but makes very short programs 18:35:31 ?T!=F:x=5;x=4 is equivalent to 18:35:31 Unknown command, try @list 18:35:47 tswett: no, cards tend to generate mana of any color instead 18:35:54 (i.e. it can only be used for one color but you can choose which) 18:36:31 I guess a card could say, "Add 1 to your mana pool. You may spend this mana as if it were mana of any color." 18:36:51 There is e.g. http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Celestial+Dawn 18:36:52 true = 1 == 1; 18:36:52 false = 1 != 1; 18:36:52 if(true != false) { 18:36:52 x = 5; 18:36:52 } else { 18:36:53 x = 4; 18:36:55 } 18:37:00 (In dynamic-variable c) 18:37:17 Please don't paste that much text in the channel. :-( 18:37:30 and yes, I was going to mention Celestial Dawn too, except that I couldn't remember what it was called 18:37:32 Sorry 18:37:45 I just had to add code for demonstration purposes 18:38:36 There are a few other cards with similar effects. 18:42:27 hppavilion[1]: you could have put it all on one line 18:43:08 ais523: I could've, but that would've been hard to read 18:43:39 no, it would have been easier to read 18:43:56 true = 1 == 1; false = 1 != 1; if (true != false) { x = 5; } else { x = 4 } 18:43:58 see? 18:44:13 because it doesn't have a bunch of repeats of your nick in the middle 18:46:05 -!- nortti has changed nick to wentgoat10^2. 18:46:13 -!- wentgoat10^2 has changed nick to nortti. 18:46:23 -!- heddwch has changed nick to gonegoat^16. 18:46:26 -!- gonegoat^16 has changed nick to heddwch. 18:48:55 Huh 18:48:57 Weird 18:49:54 Goldfish turn 6, goldfish turn 6, goldfish turn 6, goldfish turn 5, goldfish turn 6. 18:50:01 hppavilion[1]: probably related to a different channel 18:50:09 nicks are global, but nick jokes are often local 18:50:14 At least it seems decently consistent. 18:50:29 ais523: I mean the fact that it's easier to read on one line 18:50:37 hppavilion[1]: this is usually the case in IRC 18:50:43 the bots tend to output as one line for that reason 18:50:46 True, true 18:50:57 `cat bin/loudly 18:51:01 ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp) 18:51:04 By the way, I disavow that code. 18:51:15 I wrote it using echo and sed. 18:51:32 -!- sc00fy has joined. 18:55:33 I don't think I can make that language work xD 18:57:39 Yet another revision... 19:03:19 "Cumulative upkeep -- Place an age counter on ~" 19:11:13 Goldfish turn 6, goldfish turn 5, goldfish turn 5, goldfish turn 5, goldfish turn 6. 19:11:36 This is actually starting to feel kinda decent. 19:12:05 shachaf: haha 19:12:13 would anything interact with the age counters? 19:12:26 [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44384&oldid=44380 * SuperJedi224 * (+119) /* Syntax highlighting. */ 19:12:36 Some enchantments add cumulative upkeep to an existing card. 19:12:44 But mostly with negative effects, I think. 19:16:21 I made up one card that adds "cumulative upkeep {0}" to the enchanted permanent 19:18:59 I would expect the rules to say that multiple instances of cumulative upkeep don't result in multiple age counters being added each upkeep step. 19:19:42 You do add multiple age counters 19:20:06 Example 702.23b explicitly says so. 19:20:14 Yup, you're right. 19:21:34 So now I guess the question is if I can add anything to this deck to make it even faster. 19:23:04 hmmm, Rust looks sort of neat but i don't know where to start / what to write in it that's especially Rust-y :( 19:23:24 I wrote an operating system in Rust. 19:23:30 It's not very good. It has two features. 19:24:54 If I do want to win the game in about five or six turns, I guess things with a CMC of 5 or 6 aren't going to be especially useful. 19:24:55 hi 19:25:20 oh, you're talking about crazy M:tG stuff 19:26:07 tswett: indeed 19:26:30 there are "midrange" decks nowadays which aim to block smaller creatures and go over the top of the aggro decks 19:26:44 and they're rapidly becoming the most popular sort of deck, mostly because Wizards keeps nerfing everything else 19:26:54 ais523: the latest OotS strip has the title "Uninterrupted Torment". that sounded like it has to be an M:tG card name, so I checked. it's not, but "Everlasting Torment" and "Neverending Torment" are. 19:27:05 Doink. I wonder why this Gatherer search isn't giving me anything: 19:27:07 http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&format=+[%22Standard%22]&color=+[R]|[C]&type=+![%22Creature%22] 19:27:30 `unidecode t=+ 19:27:31 ​[U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+003D EQUALS SIGN] [U+002B PLUS SIGN] 19:27:59 I wonder why my client decided that the second equals sign in that URL is the first character after the URL. 19:28:08 let me read up 19:28:14 I'm considering making my λ-calculus tool not allow you to type syntactically invalid λ-expressions 19:28:32 For example, don't let a user type "λx..x" 19:28:32 tswett: oh, that sounds like something it'd be good at 19:28:40 maybe i should emulate a gameboy or something 19:28:50 But that might break workflow and force workarounds when you wnat to insert something 19:28:56 But I'm not sure if you'd ever need to do that 19:28:59 Shit 19:29:05 Have to go off for a test 19:29:05 (that actually sounds like a ton of work, how do people stand to write emulators) 19:29:09 I was able to kill a passive opponent in only 14 turns.” … that's bad. 19:29:16 Possibly Famicom might be easier 19:29:21 b_jonas: sure is! 19:29:28 Or make an implementation of QUACKVM, which is far simpler 19:29:33 hppavilion[1]: don't do that IMO 19:29:52 tswett: the advanced search actually seems to be broken 19:29:58 it's generating malformed search URLs 19:30:10 that said, try changing your "R" and "C" to "Red" and "Colorless", in quotes 19:30:19 it might help, as that seems to be what it was trying to generate 19:30:21 This works: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&format=+[%22Standard%22]&color=|[R]|[C]&type=+![%22Creature%22] 19:30:33 I wonder what happens if I just make a deck entirely out of creatures with mana cost no more than 3.” – I hear such decks can be good these days. wait, what format are you building for? 19:30:38 There are many problems with the searching function in Gatherer; only very simple things work 19:30:43 The expression has to contain |[R]|[C] instead of &[R]|[C]. 19:30:45 hppavilion[1]: (pretty much for the reason you mentioned) 19:30:47 b_jonas: Standard. 19:31:08 Make a SQLite database of it and then use that to search instead 19:31:24 b_jonas: is this standard as of now, or standard as of a couple of weeks from now? 19:31:28 most people are focusing on the latter 19:31:32 err, *tswett: 19:31:44 The intersection of the two. 19:33:39 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:36:34 -!- nycs has joined. 19:38:13 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:39:19 Ok, about M:tG, I was wondering on a particular effect red has, namely when it puts a creature of your choice from your hand onto the battlefield with haste, but temporarily, so you {sacrifice, exile, bounce, destroy etc} it {at the end of turn, at end of combat, your next upkeep, some other specified time}. 19:39:39 [wiki] [[Sclipting]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44385&oldid=41647 * Timwi * (+0) oops 19:39:46 I thought this was sort of an expensive but staple effect that was done often on red cards. It turns out no. Only about three cards do it: Through the Breach, Sneak Attack, and about one more. 19:40:10 Then M:tG people explained to me that this is no longer done because it's no longer fun when Emrakul is in the same format. 19:40:37 So I was wondering, could this be done but limited to creature cards with converted mana cost 3 or less? 19:40:43 And if so, how much would it have to cost? 19:40:54 my guess is yes, and 2 or 3 19:41:03 For comparison, there's still Elvish Piper and a similar card with a piper effect in M12 19:41:13 those don't give haste but aren't for one turn only 19:42:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:42:25 I'm back 19:42:41 Finished the test. 100%. He graded it with an app on his phone. My mind is blown. 19:43:12 The M12 card is Quicksilver Amulet 19:43:36 It's like a colorless Elvish Piper 19:44:38 ais523: as an instant? or a repeatable activated ability on a permanent? 19:44:56 b_jonas: was thinking the activation on an enchantment 19:45:05 the activation and the enchantment itself would likely have similar costs 19:45:20 Wait, _enchantment_? That's hard because you don't want to put a {T} cost on it 19:45:37 I didn't want to put a {T} cost on it 19:45:38 though it might not be a big problem if it consumes a card 19:45:46 ok 19:46:05 note that a card that gives all your creatures haste is pretty cheap (probably about {1}{R} nowadays), and giving them haste but exiling them at end of turn is normally worse 19:46:35 Are there any known undecidable states for MtG? Like StackFlow intends to create 19:47:22 Taneb: I believe so. IIRC, someone implemented a Turing machine in Magic. 19:47:40 tswett: iirc that relied on the players making decisions 19:47:47 A player could always choose to end the cycle 19:48:02 tswett: yes, ais523 has a construction of a Turing machine, with a small but probably fixable bug 19:48:13 tswett: and it's documented on the esowiki 19:48:25 b_jonas: that is StackFlow 19:48:51 I mean, is there one without the bug 19:48:51 Taneb: the StackFlow construction isn't meant to provide any opportunity to make decisions (you get priority but with an empty hand and no activatable abilities; I even blew up all the lands) 19:48:52 Oh whatever. You don't want efficiency, there's probably a translation. 19:49:07 but there's a bug in it where two abilities stack at the same time and you can choose which order to stack them in and it makes a difference 19:49:14 Taneb: if you want one without a bug, go and fix it somehow. 19:49:19 It's probably a fixable bug. 19:49:24 b_jonas: I don't know magic well enough 19:49:37 "Hot Soup" is weird, flavor-wise. 19:53:14 it was apparently designed entirely based on the flavour 19:53:26 which makes me think it's a reference to something I'm unaware of 19:54:41 why is it strange? 19:55:25 -!- grotewold has joined. 19:55:26 One doesn't normally think of hot soup as a type of artifact, weapon, or equipment. 19:55:41 the creature is holding something dangerous (a vat of hot oil, a double-edged sword, a weird bomb that can explode any time, it's called "hot soup" here), whcih is not only dangerous but also scary, so you don't want to block it. but he's holding something that will explode in his own face easily. 19:55:47 Wait, I get it—yeah, that. 19:55:54 -!- grotewold has quit (Client Quit). 19:56:00 tswett: what? why not, hot oil is a weapon 19:56:12 Yeah, but it doesn't say "hot oil". 19:56:13 they use it to defend castles all the time in stories 19:56:23 hot soup is the goblin version 19:57:00 -!- gamemanj has joined. 19:57:32 Yeah, I think I'm getting it. 19:58:18 -!- nycs has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 19:58:45 I can't shake the intuition that adding cards to a deck will make it stronger. 20:01:56 Since this deck has 210 cards, it must be unbeatable. 20:02:37 tswett: 210 cards? that's scary. what deck is it and what format? 20:02:54 tswett: is it Battle of Wits combo? 20:03:06 I'm going to get rid of all but 60 later. 20:03:11 because that's about the only excuse to play such a large deck 20:03:15 Battle of Wits 20:03:29 even in formats with 100 card minimum deck size 20:03:50 oh, except in crazy formats where people draw from a shared cube deck, not separate libraries 20:04:24 (they draw either from the shared deck or a basic land of their choice, to be more precise) 20:05:55 Don't forget Prismatic. 20:06:03 Got my λ-calculus GUI working. It now will insert λ on backslash, optionally prevent you from making syntax errors, and on it executes the script and opens a second (non-editable) text area that has the evaluated output in it (though evaluation currently just returns the raw lexed script) 20:06:13 tswett: what's Prismatic again? 20:06:17 No menu bar to save files or anything, though 20:06:42 b_jonas: six cards of each colour, one with each CMC from 1 to 6, plus a few other things which I forget 20:06:49 probably colorless cards and land 20:06:55 ais523: oh right. I haven't heared of that for a long while. 20:07:04 I don't think anyone really plays it any more 20:07:09 the people who liked it mostly play Commander now 20:07:11 hppavilion[1]: when evaluation is ready, go try the Y 20:07:13 Deck must be at least 250 cards, and must contain 20 cards of each color; multicolored cards count as one color of your choice. 20:07:21 http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/rules/prismatic 20:07:24 hmm 20:07:28 myname: The Y-Combinator?? 20:07:28 maybe I'm thinking of something else 20:07:32 Prismatic Stairwell or something 20:07:36 hppavilion[1]: yeah 20:07:41 OK 20:07:45 I probably will 20:07:51 What I'd like to try is simply 60 or 100 card singleton (at most one of each non-basic card) multiplayer, without any commander or such crazy rules. 20:08:06 tswett: I see 20:08:28 I came up with a rather silly format idea. 20:08:29 tswett: isn't that much easier these days with so many hybrid cards in print? 20:08:41 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:08:49 tswett: go on 20:08:51 Probably. But if you were to use cards with all five colors, you'd still need 100 of them, not 20. 20:08:53 Anyway... 20:09:19 b_jonas: 100 card singleton is a real format, which I think Wizards sanction in some cases 20:09:23 (perhaps Magic Online?) 20:09:23 Just like the vanilla format of your choice, except your deck must be exactly 10 cards and you're limited to one of each non-basic card. 20:09:30 tswett: sure, but I could play with three colors of mana base, and use red-white and red-green hybrid cards to cover the 20 red cards, withut ever paying for them with red mana 20:09:36 The λ-calculus program supports λ-expressions and named λ-expressions (I = λx.x) 20:09:46 ais523: in multiplayer, or duel? 20:09:53 tswett: there may well be a Vintage version of that which always wins on turn 1, barring an opposing Force of Will or the like 20:09:56 Well, will support 20:09:58 b_jonas: duel I think, not sure though 20:10:01 ok 20:10:19 Additional rule: drawing a card is always optional. 20:11:35 tswett: wait, there was some such crazy format someone mentioned: your deck is five cards singleton, drawing is not optional, at game start you arrange your deck as you choose (don't shuffle) and draw a starting hand of zero. 20:11:54 -!- mauris_ has joined. 20:12:01 That sounds pretty interesting. 20:12:10 It's not so easy to even make a deck that can win. 20:12:18 So it's like a crazy puzzle format. 20:12:37 Right. 20:14:10 It's somewhat easier now that we have Elixir of Immortality which you can use with two lands, as opposed to the very expensive Beacons from Fifth Dawn. 20:15:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:15:26 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:17:33 So I think you can do Mountain, Mountain, Lava Spike, Elixir of Immortality, Lava Spike 20:17:44 But that's probably not the best thing you can do 20:19:32 Incidentally, Elixir of Immortality gives you 5 life, which combos with Channel+Fireball 20:21:02 ais523: have you heard of this five cards arranged yet? it's an interesting puzzle to think of 20:21:07 I don't know a really good solution 20:21:54 b_jonas: I've seen similar rulesets before but maybe not that one 20:22:11 (the one I knew was three cards, they all start in your hand, drawing from an empty library doesn't cause you to lose) 20:22:23 most of the solutions seem to involve Black Lotus somehow 20:22:54 ais523: oh, so you can take any number of turns? hmm 20:23:03 Laboratory Maniac is another card that seems good in both formats 20:23:34 (although if you change your Lava Spikes to Lightning Bolts, you beat at least the most basic versions of the Laboratory Maniac deck) 20:23:57 ais523: but in that case, can't you just play a plains and an Elite Vanguard and attack in the next 10 turns? 20:24:35 b_jonas: yes but that loses to most decks because they have faster ways to win 20:25:58 or can just burn your creature 20:26:10 oh, Laboratory Maniac 20:26:12 interesting 20:26:18 btw, does your format allow sideboards? 20:26:25 you could probably do some interesting things with Research//Development 20:26:30 hmm... dunno 20:27:15 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:32:11 also, I think your normal maximum hand size is still 7, even if your starting hand has 0 cards 20:34:43 ais523: in that three card format, how about Mental Misstep, Plains, Elite Vanguard, and hope that the opponent plays a combo that the Mental Misstep disrupts completely 20:34:55 b_jonas: that was a common sort of build, yes 20:35:21 although the cleverer versions involved force of will and some method of winning with one card (e.g. memnite), where if you /didn't/ need the force of will the blue card was useful on its own 20:35:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 20:35:43 You could even play a Memnite or Dryad Arbor and two Force of Will 20:35:44 come to think of it, something like island, fugitive wizard, daze works on similar principles 20:35:51 but requires you to go first 20:35:58 b_jonas: yeah but two force of will is pointless 20:36:08 yeah true, one is probably enough 20:36:08 dryad arbor is clever though 20:36:19 I actually own a Dryad Arbor 20:36:59 ah yes, Island and Daze is a good idea 20:37:07 I knew some such counter exists 20:38:50 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:40:16 Man. What if my opponents in the tournament turn out not to be goldfish? 20:40:39 Then use islandwalkers 20:41:12 Haneb 20:41:22 shachello 20:42:03 are you jamming now? 20:42:16 I don't think so 20:42:27 I don't own a sugar thermometer 20:42:35 "jamming" means "playing magic: the gathering" among other things 20:42:35 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:42:47 b_jonas: OK, if I can have duplicate cards, what about this for your format?: Black Lotus, Orim's Chant, Soul Warden, Black Lotus, Assemble the Legion 20:43:08 shachaf: on occasion, not much or very well 20:43:15 I'm trying very hard to not spend money on it 20:43:33 Taneb: if you come to california you can have a bunch of free jams hth 20:43:43 I can do the same in York 20:43:44 the Orim's Chant beats pretty much any attempt you could make at an early combo; and Soul Warden + Assemble the Legion gives quadratically growing amount of blockers and life, thus quickly outpacing any linearly growing damage or creature strategy tou might have 20:44:19 ais523: turn 5 win that works even if opponent has a blocker: Lotus Bloom, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Stifle 20:44:58 I do want to make that almost-guaranteed lose deck 20:44:58 b_jonas: black lotus > lotus bloom, surely? 20:45:01 is there something better than Lotus Bloom for this, that gives only two mana? 20:45:05 or are we just banning black lotus for being absurd? 20:45:14 ais523: Black Lotus is VERY expensive 20:45:22 b_jonas: oh, but it's a hypothetical format 20:45:29 I was assuming we wouldn't need the physical cards 20:45:30 I mean, the Phyrexian Dreadnought can costs 20 dollars, it's not a cheap card 20:45:40 just discussion over IRC 20:45:43 but a Black Lotus, even the cheapest version, is very expensive 20:45:47 I see it like BF Joust: both players submit their deck list 20:45:50 and then we work out who wins 20:45:54 well sure, for theory you could mention Black Lotus, 20:46:01 but I'd prefer something that doesn't include such inaccessible cards 20:46:16 in that case you need a banlist 20:46:38 you could go with the Legacy banlist, or maybe (if it's about accessibility) ban the Reserved List (except nobody can remember what's on it) 20:46:52 It would be great if a format than bans all cards over a price threshold became popular. 20:47:03 ais523: yes, Legacy ban list might work 20:47:07 shachaf: that'd be crazy, as soon as a deck started doing well it would ban itself 20:47:12 Yes. 20:47:22 I agree, strict price ban is a bad idea 20:47:24 shachaf: what format do you guys play in CA? 20:47:35 but still, I'd prefer not to use the power 9 for a thing like this 20:47:36 let's do Legacy ban list then, because at least it's easy to look up and I can remember most of it 20:47:49 I normally play commander 20:47:56 definitely don't use the Reserved list though, that list is just stupid 20:48:07 -!- aretecode has joined. 20:48:21 b_jonas: it is mostly a list of the most expensive cards, though (by design!) 20:48:21 Taneb: We played Jamstandard, which allowed all cards from Innistrad onward. 20:48:25 Is there something instead of Lotus Bloom or Black Lotus that works here? 20:48:54 b_jonas: how much time do you have? the time spiral cycle of storage lands can produce unlimited mana given sufficient time (might need another land to help out) 20:49:16 ais523: I'd specifically like Phyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle to win in turn 4 instead of turn 5 20:49:21 in your format 20:49:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 20:49:52 b_jonas: this means that you have to play both spells turn 3, right? 20:49:59 no, turn 2 20:50:03 it doesn't have haste 20:50:16 b_jonas: oh, you mean the three card format 20:50:21 yes, three card format 20:50:23 and without resorting to black lotus 20:50:32 yes 20:50:38 the three card format was basically designed around black lotus originally, but after a while they had a rolling ban list 20:50:45 where the most popular card each week was banned for the next week 20:50:47 hmm wait, Lotus Bloom lets you play in turn 4, not turn 3 20:51:03 I can't remember what the decks were like then 20:51:17 ais523: would that ban Black Lotus every other week? 20:51:26 bans were permanent once enacted, sorry 20:51:29 ah 20:51:32 ok 20:51:38 wouldn't you have lots of ties though? 20:51:44 with only three cards per deck 20:52:03 not normally, because most people added ways to screw up enemy strategies 20:52:20 anyway I'm having problems playing stiflenought quickly off one card 20:52:36 do any of the Leylines help in the three-card format? 20:53:02 most of them are either hosers, or require mana 20:53:26 isn't there some old card that lets you get two mana somehow? 20:53:35 though probably you could get only two colorless 20:54:09 b_jonas: there are at least two Legacy-legal lands that produce {2} (with drawbacks you don't care about) 20:54:12 (in this format) 20:54:25 there's also a few cards that scale based on what you have in play 20:54:35 which are kind-of useless in a 3-card format but would work for this elsewhere 20:55:12 five card arrange no starting draw: “Black Lotus, Orim's Chant, Soul Warden, Black Lotus, Assemble the Legion” -- Orim's Chant is intersting, probably a very good choice, but Assemble the Legion costs five mana, so how do you play for all of this with two lotuses? 20:55:27 there's a hilarious (tier 2 or maybe 3) Legacy deck whose perfect hand is five leylines, opalescence, serra's sanctum 20:55:41 b_jonas: there are two possibilities 20:55:53 if the opponent's strategy is screwed up by the orim's chant, you use that to make the opponent useless 20:55:56 then kill them with the soul warden 20:56:02 if it isn't, you don't cast the orim's chant at all 20:56:32 hmm 20:56:38 dunno, it might work 20:57:34 the big problem with my assemble the legion deck is that it can't beat a laboratory maniac 20:57:50 neither by preventing it resolving nor by killing it nor by winning first 20:58:09 I guess maybe I should be playing some general-purpose 3-mana removal spell over orim's chant 21:02:50 ais523: I don't understand why you play Soul Warden 21:03:21 b_jonas: so that if someone is recurring lava spikes or the like 21:03:23 I outpace them 21:03:29 ais523: can basic lands be banned if one becomes the most popular during the week? 21:03:32 otherwise they might be able to burn me out before I get to 20 21:03:35 also I think so 21:03:39 but there are tons of substitutes 21:03:43 in a format like this 21:03:47 e.g. Pendelhaven over Forest 21:03:49 true 21:03:50 will work in most decks 21:04:18 still, with one popular card banned, this format could get very strange after some weeks 21:04:25 with or without lands 21:04:34 Taneb: what constitutes an "almost-guaranteed lose deck"? 21:05:07 I remember reading about it, some Magic blog posted an April fools joke that described a deck guaranteed to end the game on the first turn or something 21:06:23 ais523: in the five card format, if you can play two Black Lotuses (that would be sick, it's restricted in Vintage afterall), then two Black Lotus, two Brain Freeze, and some defensive card 21:06:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:07:15 b_jonas: actually, in the five card format 21:07:19 mill seems very, very strong 21:07:24 yep 21:07:45 a turn 3 ancestral recall on the draw outright wins, and that only costs one mana 21:07:49 (you aim it at your opponent) 21:08:36 What is the 5 card format? 21:08:46 ais523: doesn't win outright. wins against some decks, but not all 21:08:53 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:09:06 ais523: your opponent has drawn only one card yet, draws 3 for Ancestral Recall, one on his next turn 21:09:09 he might win then 21:09:18 hmm, now I'm reminded that there was a time where the top deck in the format (which dominated) had mill as its win condition, and could only mill finitely many cards 21:09:19 yes, it sounds strong, but not an outright win 21:09:24 so people were beating it with a deck of 600 island 21:09:43 ais523: 600 island? that'd be hard to shuffle 21:09:49 Taneb: maximum+minimum deck size 5, starting hand size 0, you can reorder your library at the start of the game 21:09:58 b_jonas: there's some debate about whether you have to shuffle if all the cards are the same 21:10:04 because all orderings are equally random 21:10:49 I have played an infinite life deck where one of my win strategies is to just wait for about 60 turns for the opponents to mill, and reshuffle my own deck. I also have creatures, but those can be foiled by many decks. 21:11:15 It's a VERY bad deck the play against, so I only played it once so far. 21:11:21 I should rebuild it some time and play it again. 21:11:49 Though I'd rather want to build a green-blue infinite mana deck now. I did build one but there's many new cards that make it much better now. 21:11:59 It was ages ago when I built it. 21:13:11 what do you do if the opponent has an emrakul? 21:13:25 we should arrange a magic-over-IRC thing anyway 21:13:35 ais523: found it: Seafloor Debris. Add that to Phyrexian Dreadnought and Stifle. 21:13:41 I knwe there had to be such a land. 21:14:02 no money needs spending, no copyright issues as we're just doing a play-by-play with no actual copy involved, no actual cards needed 21:14:20 ais523: um, you can play with proxies in person too 21:14:24 b_jonas: that can't create two on the same turn 21:14:24 but I like the physical cards 21:14:25 they're nice 21:14:32 ais523: hmm true 21:14:33 damn 21:14:35 and I know you can do proxies in person but that'd be no good for playing against #esoteric people 21:14:36 that won't work 21:14:53 And even if you allow some proxies, physical non-proxy cards are nice. 21:15:01 I actually like the art and flavor text and such things of cards. 21:15:12 In my view the picture wastes half the card space. 21:15:13 (Not of all cards, sure. There are really bad ones.) 21:15:14 oh yes, that's the reason I used to buy them (that the physical cards are nice) 21:15:22 but not any more, Lorwyn pretty much put me off Magic for good 21:15:30 shachaf: it's used by most top players to recognise the card across the table 21:15:35 way easier than trying to read the name 21:15:45 ais523: why, isn't half of #esoteric in finland and the other half in the UK? :-) 21:15:47 OK, that's true, the picture is useful as an identifier. 21:16:04 b_jonas: but the UK is quite big 21:16:36 exactly. black card with old frame and ugly pink background picture with creatures with a misshapen head, you don't have to read the text to know it's a stupid bad card. 21:17:20 (it's Phyrexian Broodlings) 21:18:16 If we played M:tG over IRC, I'd probably use physical cards to represent much of the state locally 21:18:19 b_jonas: what's your opinion on Stasis? especially the art 21:18:51 we could try to organize such a thing, but I haven't got a good deck built currently 21:19:16 ais523: dunno, that one has very strange art. you only find that kind of thing only on old cards. 21:19:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 21:20:09 What was that terrible card that converted mana for {3}? 21:20:18 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!). 21:20:42 shachaf: once? repeatably? 21:20:55 It was an artifact that could convert mana, or something like that. 21:21:14 shachaf: artifact? not land or creature? 21:22:05 I might be wrong about the cost. 21:22:14 I know some creatures that convert mana (without needing to tap), but not ones that need that much mana for it. 21:22:34 that snake shaman guy is the most famous, because it converts any amount of mana for free 21:22:43 Celestial Prism 21:22:44 Orochi Leafcaller 21:23:07 then there are some elves 21:23:30 shachaf: oh, that even requires tapping. that seems very useless. 21:24:37 This card is not very good. 21:24:49 shachaf: I mean, for 3 you get a Darksteel Ignot or lots of similar things 21:25:01 Not in alpha, I guess? 21:25:01 Remember those neural net generated magic cards 21:25:13 My favourite was "You may spend (1)" 21:26:08 there's Skyshroud Elf which converts _colorless_ mana to white or red for free 21:26:35 what is there that converts any amount of mana to any color for free, or to a color chosen when it enters the battlefield? 21:28:13 celestial dawn kind-of counts 21:28:32 there's a card in return to ravnica that makes all lands produce any color of mana 21:28:37 And is there something that converts any amount of mana to _green_ mana for free? 21:30:02 ais523: in the sense of Chromatic Lantern, or replacing the mana they produce, or adding a trigger for additional mana like Fertile Ground? 21:30:25 it replaces the mana they produce, IIRC 21:30:39 probably is literally chromatic lantern, actually 21:30:47 that's not in ravnica 21:30:51 perhaps with misremembered details 21:30:52 It's in RtR. 21:31:01 ok 21:31:14 and it is in return to ravnica, which is where I said it was, just checked 21:31:18 hmm wait, I think I remember something 21:31:18 But that doens't help you with non-land mana, or mana from before you had it. 21:31:24 oh indeed, that's what you said 21:32:23 b_jonas: oh, prismatic omen is another card along similar lines 21:32:28 it gives all your lands all basic land types 21:32:39 in addition to whatever they normally do 21:32:44 All of that is about producing karma, though. 21:33:02 sort-of like urborg, but multicolored, doesn't help your opponent, and doesn't produce mana itself 21:33:07 You have to decide when you tap your land. 21:33:31 I found Bog Initiate which converts to black 21:34:01 I didn't find anything that converts to green. 21:34:20 strange 21:34:25 Nor blu. 21:34:26 e 21:35:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:36:57 mind you, Orochi Leafcaller is sometimes good enough, because many decks that create lots of mana can create green 21:37:00 but still 21:37:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:37:57 Well, it isn't good enough for "convert to green". 21:38:13 hierjan 21:41:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:42:55 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:43:55 shachaf: I can convert blue to any color using either Horseshoe Crab or Pemmin's Aura or Freed from the Real plus one other card of which there are many choices 21:44:22 but I'm not sure how to convert from colorless mana 21:44:22 -!- adu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:44:23 Sure, but we were talking about converting *to* a particular color. 21:45:04 I don't even see anything that converts {2} or {3} to {G}, infinitely repeatably 21:45:16 except maybe very complicated combos 21:45:30 I mean, so complicated that it's easier to just get an infinite mana combo 21:45:41 one that generates infinite green mana 21:47:07 ais523: is there something that lets you convert (colorless or white or red) mana to green in a way that's infinitely repeatable without requiring other resources, possibly consuming more than one mana? 21:47:31 b_jonas: there's a combo that does that in my favourite deck but it's really complicated 21:47:53 ais523: exactly, with a complicated combo, I can just generate infinite mana 21:48:40 if you don't worry about how hard it is to set it up in a real game, it's easy to get a three-card infinite combo that generates any color 21:48:46 my combo can generate infinite black, and can also convert 2B into BBC for any color C 21:49:00 which is enough for infinite of any color 21:49:06 the hard part is to make a deck that sets this up without the opponent disrupting the setup and winning 21:49:06 but those are two separate steps 21:49:13 (that happen to use the same cards, but in a different way) 21:49:25 oh, I think you mentioned that combo 21:49:25 actually, my deck is easy to disrupt, but can rebuild from basically nothing very quickly 21:49:29 I've had times when someone's wrathed me 21:49:34 the next turn I play out 10 creatures and combo out 21:49:35 hichaf 21:49:39 whoa whoa whoa, does it invent nitia? 21:49:42 `? nitia 21:49:43 nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her. 21:49:53 ais523: yes, I'm optimistic, I think I can build an infinite mana deck that will work 21:50:19 shachaf: no, it invents the inventor of nitia 21:50:40 "it" being the BBC it creates. 21:50:55 I suppose there's only one. 21:50:55 ah, right 21:50:59 I don't know in that case 21:51:07 but it's /possible/, perhaps, on a sufficiently metaphysical level 21:51:14 `culprits wisdom/ais523 21:51:14 ais523's combo invents the inventor of nitia. Taneb invented it. 21:51:16 int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull elliott Sgeo Bike oerjan Taneb ais523 ais523 elliott oerjan elliott FreeFull oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia 21:51:34 apparently nitia invented ais523 21:51:36 that's a lot of culprits for such a pointless entry 21:51:39 this is getting pretty complicated 21:52:28 `culprits wisdom/taneb 21:52:30 oerjan Taneb oerjan oerjan elliott shachaf boily oerjan ais523 ais523 shachaf elliott FreeFull shachaf shachaf oerjan oerjan FreeFull oerjan FreeFull Taneb shachaf shachaf nitia 21:52:37 truly, nitia is the inventor of all things 21:52:39 hmm, it seems there are a couple of creature or artifact cards that have built-in abilities to untap for lots of mana. Those can be used with Utopia Vow or that better aura from Theros block to convert lots of colorless mana to any color 21:53:04 Voltaic Construct is the easiest 21:53:19 Voltaic Construct plus Scuttlemutt converts {2} to any color 21:55:17 Voltaic Construct plus (Heartstone or Power Artifact or Training Grounds) plus Scuttlemutt lets you convert {1} to any color 21:56:19 ok, so my solution is Voltaic Construct, Heartstone, Scuttlemutt 21:56:54 shachaf: is that good enough? 21:57:00 For what? 21:57:04 I don't think I posed a problem. 21:57:10 yes, I know 21:57:13 I started the whole thing 21:58:49 Mana abilities are so complicated. 21:58:57 I wish this whole game was scrapped and replaced with something simpler. 21:59:36 Just make up a new game then 22:00:33 There are some stuff in Magic: the Gathering I don't like, for example I would remove the rules about Auras that are also creatures being discarded and stuff like that, as well as fixing the rules for card types and for some other things to make them more mathematically elegant; I think some rule not so mathematically elegant 22:02:24 shachaf: yes, I was wondering what was the most complicated that could happen immediately when activating a mana ability. I know you can sacrifice a creature, but I can't seem to make that cause anything disastrous immediately using static effects. 22:02:49 This Voltaic Construct is interesting. I wonder if I could use it somehow. 22:02:52 I mostly like Magic: the Gathering though, including how mana abilities work and so on 22:03:01 I like the puzzles especially 22:04:42 So I would also want to make up a new kind of entirely different card game, that can be invent a programming language to invent the game and then write the rules as literate computer program. Makes it more clearly. I would also do it much more mathematically elegant. (My plan was to make the game "Aberration Hater Card Game", with several game modes, such as Solomon vs Rochester vs Sealed, symmetric vs asymmetric, two-players vs three-players vs Bri 22:05:13 zzo38: Your message was cut off. 22:05:44 I like the idea of a game with computer-interprable rules which is mathematically elegant. 22:06:15 I've wondered what sort of programming language you'd need to be able to express something similar to Magic: The Gathering cards concisely. 22:06:53 Although if you were designing the system from scratch to work that way you could get away with not having some of the complications that Magic: The Gathering has. 22:06:56 shachaf: better: write an interpreter that takes Oracle text as its input langauge 22:07:19 I don't think that's better. 22:07:48 Oracle English is better than regular English, but it's still very complicated and irregular. 22:07:56 And so are the rules themselves. 22:08:00 ais523: Actually my idea was to have both; have a natural language parser which allows formatting codes and various other codes, it can then be printed or converted to computer codes, and can include inline computer-codes which are not printed (in order to deal with irregulatities and so on). 22:08:12 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:08:17 The rules themself though would be written using literate computer-code instead. 22:08:28 There should be a simple language which, if you want, you can translate to English card text. Though I don't know if that's even a good idea. 22:08:49 Things like MtG keywords should be like library calls, with the core rule set being relatively small. 22:09:00 Do you like my idea though? It is pretty much different. 22:09:21 The question is how to make a language/environment which can modify itself to the degree that MtG cards can. 22:09:32 shachaf: I did think of several ideas about it 22:09:51 (And is also nearly as concise as English.) 22:10:34 If you type () or [] then it is comments in the card text, but the formatting is different; () print with () included in printout and italics while [] is printed without the [] but text inside is printed, and then perhaps (- -) or {- -} or whatever might include inline computer-codes which are not included in the printout. 22:10:42 zzo38: your messages keep getting cut off. i think your irc client needs better message length handling. perhaps splitting but at least a warning. 22:11:19 -!- ais523 has quit. 22:12:38 -!- rafajafar has joined. 22:13:49 anyone here interested in serialization? I'd reallllly like some conversation and feedback on a spec for binary data transfer that follows closely with json 22:14:00 If it is RDF then consider something like: [:counter [!_:a :target :spell]; :replacing [:when [:moving [:what _:a; :from :stack; :to :graveyard]]; :replace-with [:moving [:to :library]]]] 22:14:19 I have the spec up here, am working on it, but sure could use some foresight from those who may have some: https://github.com/rafajafar/binjas/blob/master/specification.txt 22:19:06 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:19:18 -!- Melvar` has joined. 22:19:19 -!- idris-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:19:25 -!- Tod-Autojoined has joined. 22:20:26 -!- Melvar has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:20:29 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar. 22:20:58 -!- idris-bot has joined. 22:23:24 -!- XorSwap has joined. 22:23:35 -!- XorSwap has quit (Client Quit). 22:28:09 -!- boily has joined. 22:34:05 <\oren\> gVd EvniG!!! 22:34:31 bons\oiren\! 22:34:36 <\oren\> boelloyly! 22:34:46 boilyo 22:34:57 yoren 22:35:40 bonshachafoir 22:35:51 yo dawg 22:35:56 http://slbkbs.org/yawg-prime.png 22:36:13 <\oren\> rafajafar: have you heard of BSON? 22:36:32 yes 22:37:00 BSON is a scow encoding, if I remember correctly. 22:37:01 bonsoirafajafar. 22:37:09 there are a lot of issues with it, primary of which is how frequently it actually makes things larger 22:37:20 more importantly, it has data types that aren't necessary 22:37:24 such as, oh, dates 22:37:27 hoily 22:37:36 shachaf: this is a prime? 22:37:43 bonsœirjan. 22:37:53 bonjoerjan 22:38:01 the two 'j's are pronounced the same way hth 22:38:48 Good night 22:38:50 by philistines and infidels, maybe 22:38:54 bonne tanuitb! 22:39:08 shachaf: Norwegian j or Fren j? 22:39:12 s/n\b/nch/ 22:39:29 Norwegianch or Fren? that's up to you 22:39:31 ghargh. can't even regexp tonight. 22:39:42 I'll go with Norwegianch. I am cursed. 22:40:09 Norwejan 22:40:19 * oerjan shall now endeavor to pronounce the two h's in shachaf's name equally 22:40:52 <\oren\> they are already 22:41:12 * oerjan cackles evilly 22:41:18 <\oren\> both palatalize the preceding shound 22:41:19 \oren\: like it's very interesting that bson has a date data type when json itself doesn't 22:41:34 <\oren\> but Javascript does 22:41:39 but json doesnt 22:41:39 \oren\: i believe you are wrong hth 22:41:54 wait, i was supposed to annoy shachaf not defend him 22:42:00 and it's not a data type in javascript 22:42:07 why would you want to annoy me? 22:42:11 it's just a class that most implementations have built in 22:42:24 <\oren\> the c is pronounced as a /t/ in 'ch' 22:42:43 help 22:42:48 <\oren\> er, a 'ts' 22:42:53 <\oren\> /ts/ 22:42:57 i don't even know what you're trying to say now 22:43:00 no 22:43:08 the ch is a voiceless uvular fricative hth 22:43:17 shachaf: sweet sweet vengeance hth 22:43:51 <\oren\> palatalized ts is tʃ 22:44:06 looj 22:44:22 <\oren\> /ʃatʃaf/ 22:44:25 itt \oren\ confuses english and hebrew 22:44:44 or perhaps just tries to annoy shachaf 22:44:49 http://forvo.com/word/%D7%A9%D7%97%D7%A3/ 22:45:34 i mentally say ʃɑχɑf or whatever 22:45:53 . o O ( /χχχχχχχχχχχχχχχχ/ ) 22:45:55 <\oren\> then your spelling it worng hth. 22:46:01 <\oren\> shahaf 22:46:02 nice i'm close, i just mentally englishify the vowels! 22:46:14 you're pronouncing it wrong hth 22:46:28 oerjan is truly an evil overlord 22:46:28 shachaf: i have pronounced words for forvo 22:46:39 planting confusion behind the scenes 22:46:46 "my good deed to the earth hth" 22:46:49 that's not the right verb but i'm too confused to think of the right one 22:46:52 <\oren\> shachaf: well that girl on that website is saying /ʃahaf/ 22:47:09 no, she's using a fricative 22:47:20 <\oren\> an h is a fricative! 22:47:23 wow that is not /h/ 22:47:52 here's another one http://forvo.com/word/shachaf/ 22:47:55 <\oren\> well then it's shaghaf 22:47:56 you can hear her uvula go chhhh! it is right there 22:48:00 looj it's uvular ok 22:48:06 ==mauris_ 22:48:19 <\oren\> or or maybe shakhaf 22:48:24 shachaf: is the stress on the first or the last syllable, that link sounded perfectly ambiguous 22:48:34 `` grep -FIin uvular wisdom/* 22:48:36 (the first one) 22:48:37 grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°​_o): Is a directory 22:48:39 only a norwegian would think that's ambiguous hth 22:48:40 shakhaf would work (this is what some people do for /x/ in russian) 22:48:51 `quote uvular 22:48:52 1094) nooodl: when my girlfriend asks me to give her uvular fricative I'm pretty sure that's not what she means 22:48:54 mauris_: the russian sound is velar not uvular hth 22:49:05 hm the second was clearly on the first 22:49:17 oerjan: the emphasis in oerjan is on both syllables, right? 22:49:19 <\oren\> but normal engish speakers pronounce 'ch' as 'tʃ' ok 22:49:21 or something bizarre like that 22:49:26 shachaf: i've been stressing your name wrongly all this time tdnh 22:49:31 yes but to the western world it falls nicely under "weird foreign throaty sounds we'll just spell kh" 22:49:46 \oren\: i eschew that pronunciation hth 22:49:58 that sound isn't even throaty 22:50:17 is the french r throaty? 22:50:31 shachaf: it depends. mostly yes. 22:50:56 shachaf: i find it a bit hard to decide. supposedly stress should be on the first syllable but it's not as distinct in words with the second pitch accent 22:50:58 it's usually the ch in your name but voiced! 22:51:28 mauris_: mostly. there is some variation between the trill and fricative. 22:52:08 i think i've heard approximants in canadaian french, or am i just loopy? 22:52:40 -!- rafajafar has left. 22:52:50 that's not the right verb but i'm too confused to think of the right one <-- sow hth 22:52:59 <\oren\> yeah the kebecwas pronounce it like english r 22:53:09 eh? 22:53:18 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 22:54:02 \oren\: that is highly dubious. 22:54:48 <\oren\> Hmm ok apparently that's only people from ottawa 22:55:00 what i've definitely heard from french canadians is like... 22:55:25 they'll say words like "hamburger" with approximants to stick close to english 22:55:45 whereas here in europe people go hambuʁʁʁʁʁgeʁʁʁʁʁ and it's funny 22:56:04 <\oren\> yeah all kebecwas do taht, defiantly 22:56:26 \oren\: sorry, you aren't even wrong. 22:56:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:57:53 <\oren\> boily: you don't like my englishification of quebecois? 22:58:13 <\oren\> kebecwas 22:58:26 hamburger sounds kind of like /æmbə̥'gœɹ/. 22:59:53 <\oren\> i see 23:00:02 \oren\: ma vengeance sera terrible! 23:00:23 boily: avez-vous un microphone? there's so few samples of canadian french on the internet :< 23:00:50 mauris_: j'ai un micro, et tu peux me tutoyer. any sentence you'd like to hear? 23:01:28 -!- adu has joined. 23:01:50 just "hamburger" was on my mind, but you can optionally jam it into a sentence! 23:02:03 okay, let's try... 23:03:33 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6oeAdemFZw 23:03:36 õmbyʁgɛʁ 23:03:47 also, neat! i thought people speaking languages with T-V distinction usually vouvoyer'd each other on the internet 23:04:37 when you say throaty, i think of e.g. pharyngeal sounds 23:04:41 \oren\: not available tdnh 23:04:55 it's ok i can imagine peter sellers in my mind 23:05:13 ʕ or ħ 23:05:13 <\oren\> it isn't peter sellers 23:05:27 how can it not be peter sellers 23:05:36 <\oren\> there was a remake hth 23:05:50 hmph 23:06:01 <\oren\> `? hmph 23:06:02 His Master's Phonetic Hmph 23:06:06 i think i shall imagine peter sellers anyhow hth 23:06:20 mroman: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xe7pj3e4psp5p90/hamburger.ogg?dl=0 23:06:27 `culprits wisdom/hmph 23:06:28 oerjan 23:06:41 Did someone say a programming language to express Magic: the Gathering cards in? 23:06:45 or i can just click in the sidebar 23:06:53 How about Python? 23:06:56 oerjan: you made me laugh with your omburguère. 23:07:27 <\oren\> it is steve martin 23:07:29 effect = add_blocking_restriction(lambda victim: not victim.flying) 23:07:58 hm. confused mroman and mauris. 23:08:02 boily: this is adorable <3 23:08:20 also canadian french is freaky 23:08:23 I mean, with Python you can't define a method using = like that. 23:08:44 i can only understand like 25% of this, the ts and dz throws me off 23:08:48 mauris_: it was quite standard French. I was light with the regionalisms. 23:08:51 -!- Guest-Pirc has joined. 23:09:07 (mind, i can only understand like 50% of france french to begin with) 23:09:47 def effect(self): deal_damage(self.targets.player, 4); for c in self.targets.player.creatures { deal_damage(c, 4) } 23:10:18 ok that'll do, mustn't overdose 23:11:41 def effect(self): card = self.targets.creature.controller.reveal_random_from_hand(); cmc = card.converted_mana_cost; self.deal_damage(self.targets.creature, cmc); self.deal_damage(self.targets.creature.controller, cmc) 23:11:46 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:12:04 tswett: pff what if add_blocking_restriction returns a lambda that takes a `self` parameter that (etc.) 23:12:07 <\oren\> that sounded like a normal english r in ambergar 23:12:45 mauris_: then I'll punch whoever wrote the framework in the face. 23:13:24 <\oren\> tswett: until they give you a good api? sounds reasonable 23:13:29 Yup. 23:14:25 def attack_trigger(self): victim = self.controller.select_target(creature); if victim is not None: victim.add_blocking_restriction(lambda: false, until_end_of_turn) 23:14:41 You know, this would actually be an interesting challenge. 23:14:55 Amberg: a small german village whose inhabitants are furious that a misspelling caused Hamburg to steal the credit for their gastronomical masterpiece 23:15:33 -!- Guest-Pirc has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:15:58 *German 23:16:14 Amberg is named after a person who once found a piece of ambergris lying on the beach, but then had their legs eaten by a bear and they died, so in that person's memory the townsfolk chopped off the last three letters of the word "ambergris". 23:16:35 Actually, it's the other way around. 23:16:50 they chopped the legs off a whale? 23:17:00 Ambergris is named after its discoverer, a person whose name was Chris, and who was from Amberg, and thus was called Amberg Chris. 23:17:17 <\oren\> Amberg is halfway between regensberg and bayreuth, which I assume is the german version of beirut 23:17:28 `? monoid 23:17:28 Monoids are just categories with a single object. 23:17:29 `? monoids 23:17:30 Monoids are the easy version of categories. 23:17:44 The monoid/monoids situation must be rectified. 23:18:15 -!- mauris has joined. 23:18:24 `? category 23:18:25 Categories are just a special case of bicategories. 23:18:32 tswett: no no no no no! It's just a German conflagration of a strong verb and a mountain. male boasting, if you want. Am berg. Are berg. Is berg. You small-hill. 23:18:32 `? bicategory 23:18:33 Bicategories are just categories where composition is only associative up to an isomorphism. 23:18:49 boily: ah, got it. 23:18:53 `learn Monoids are just the easy version of categories with a single object. 23:18:55 Learned 'monoid': Monoids are just the easy version of categories with a single object. 23:18:59 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:18:59 <\oren\> amberg is next to a town called bamberg 23:19:05 `rm wisdom/monoids 23:19:07 No output. 23:19:11 <\oren\> isinmtu 23:19:12 tswett: that what you meant? 23:19:19 oerjan: you're aware, of course, that the combined wisdom doesn't really make sense. 23:19:27 shocking 23:19:35 `le/rn category/A category is just a category object in the category of classes. 23:19:37 Learned «category» 23:20:10 tswett: actually i think it makes perfect sense. 23:20:28 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamberg_potato 23:21:11 boily: shouldn't that be Eisberg hth 23:21:54 <\oren\> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Franconia_details.png as you can see, Amberg, Bamberg and Nuremberg are close to each other 23:22:10 -!- mauris_ has joined. 23:22:50 <\oren\> Coberg is also nearby 23:25:00 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:25:25 why not Zoidberg 23:26:02 oerjan: you're thinking of a salad hth 23:27:48 mmm, salad 23:28:17 Apparently when Magic R&D is playtesting, they use cards that look like this: http://media.wizards.com/legacy/global/images/mtgcom_daily_af40_picmain_en.jpg 23:28:32 The entire contents of that card, for our viewers at home: 23:28:37 "Hat 3" 23:29:06 `? hat 23:29:07 hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo 23:30:41 `? hat 23:30:42 hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo 23:30:53 i. ok 23:31:08 `le/rn kayayaya/Ka-ya-ya-ya. Ka-ya-ya-ya-ya. Ka-ya-ya-ya. Ka-ya-ya-ya-ya. 23:31:10 Learned «kayayaya» 23:31:16 In case anyone was wondering. 23:32:24 Man, "loudly" has got to be the best thing I've done for this channel. 23:32:34 I don't know why you aren't all heaping praise upon me. 23:32:54 tswett: itym HAT³ hth 23:33:50 os 23:34:06 tswett: I'm sure we're all afraid of suffocating you. 23:34:13 tswett: imperial or metric heap? 23:34:13 Ah, yes, that must be it. 23:39:15 what is os 23:40:20 `? os 23:40:21 Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway. 23:43:13 doesn't help 23:49:03 does it have a wisard? 23:52:40 no, just a wisard 23:53:31 sorry, what's the difference? 23:56:08 (mental spell correction working a little too well, perhaps?)