00:00:26 <FireFly> Surreal numbers are weird. I read a bit about them while reading up on Go, but I can't say I got them entirely
00:01:42 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], if you've not read stuff like cantor's diagonal argument you don't have much of a foundation to build on yet
00:04:17 <Phantom_Hoover> mathematical infinity comes in many forms, all of them unintuitive in some way
00:05:33 <shachaf> what's unintuitive about the conaturals
00:10:17 <HackEgo> bitwimpcoin tftberavecoin cycling-boobazocoin galcoin binacoin umannelcoin bylcoin quitcoin recurecoin befretruccoin discoin catchalchecoin smithutcoin 3756coin procoin excitercoin adedcoin shamcoin oozlecoin smacoin
00:10:52 <shachaf> if only i could get a round, tuitive coin
00:12:43 <shachaf> newsham: i had no idea you were into that kind of cryptography
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00:20:50 <ais523> I like "oozlecoin" the best out of those, I think
00:21:05 <ais523> although "quitcoin" has interesting implications
00:25:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:28:54 <zzo38> Only cards that let you to take stuff from the sideboard can be used to remove stuff from the main game (it will end up in the library of the main game instead, I think). As far as I know you can even take stuff from the ante zone of the main game but I am not sure (although your opponent can concede the subgame if wanted; I have been told that for the purposes of conceding, no effects are considered as atomic)
00:29:50 <FireFly> maybe "quitcoin" is for people trying to do something about their cryptocoin addiction
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00:38:41 <hppavilion[1]> So I think I won't use the surreals in this language, I'll save that for the Sequel language xD
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00:52:21 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I should downgrade from the Surreals to the Ordinals?
01:02:13 <draghi> BF Derivative #98,000 - Ordinal Edition?
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01:32:10 <izabera> i need to kind of fuzzy match a string against a text, but i'm not interested in words that are very common and can be part of both
01:32:21 <izabera> so far i'm removing all the words that match the|.|..|with|and
01:33:55 <FireFly> The information retrieval approach is to have a huge corpus, and then weight words by the inverse document frequency (df = #documents that the word appears in, in the corpus)
01:34:09 <FireFly> Well, that is one approach at least
01:34:37 <FireFly> that way "more rare" words get weighted higher, and typically those are domain-specific
01:34:57 <izabera> how large is a huge corpus?
01:34:59 <FireFly> You might want to look at tf-idf weighting
01:35:17 <FireFly> I guess it depends on one's needs
01:35:36 <FireFly> What kind of strings are you matching?
01:35:54 <FireFly> I mean, what is the context of the fuzzy match
01:36:01 <izabera> you know those bots that print the title of the most recent url that was posted in a channel?
01:36:29 <izabera> that's the single most annoying feature in irc bots
01:36:41 <izabera> i'm trying to make one that's slightly less annoying
01:37:06 <izabera> www.pastebin.com/random/paste -> <stupidbot> Pastebin.com, your friendly neighborhood pastebin site
01:37:43 <izabera> www.random-wiki-website.org/wiki/how-to-set-up-the-interwebz -> <stupidbot> Random Wiki Website: How to set up the interwebz
01:38:04 <izabera> so it will ignore a list of known pastebin sites
01:38:22 <FireFly> I used to think they were pointless, but then I started idling in a channel with a titlebot like that and now I've kinda grown to like it
01:38:39 <FireFly> at least as long as they don't highlight the user posting the link
01:38:47 <izabera> http://arin.ga/8rBLLA/raw thiiiis
01:39:09 <izabera> from #musl a few hours ago when i got fed up with this
01:39:51 <izabera> so i have to guess if the title is similar enough to the url
01:40:09 <FireFly> one way to avoid that amount of stupidity would be to simply keep a cache of the past few titles posted to a channel, and ignore if the string matches exactly
01:40:23 <izabera> yeah that's one the to do list
01:41:48 <FireFly> maybe do something like: lowercase both strings, strip whitespace, find the longest common subsequence between the two
01:42:05 <FireFly> I guess stripping whitespace is unnecessary
01:42:37 <izabera> right now i'm splitting the words, removing the trivial ones that match that regex, comparing and check if X% of words match
01:42:38 <FireFly> but then the length of the longest common subsequence compared to the length of the string might say something about how much the title repeats the URL
01:42:51 <FireFly> it's a different approach to comparing words, though
01:44:22 <ais523> what's the point in a random paste button?
01:44:54 <ais523> I guess it'd be comparable to a random tweet button (does Twitter have one of those?)
01:47:16 <izabera> what is a random paste button?
01:47:40 <ais523> presumably you press it, and it shows you a random thing that has ever been pasted to a pastebin
01:48:11 * FireFly imagines a "random tweet" button that tweets one of those markov-chain-generated tweets that *ebooks accounts post
01:48:52 <ais523> does fungot have a twitter account?
01:48:52 <fungot> ais523: i'm going to check his legs, spinning him around and shoving him in the nuts and set fire to practically everybody,' said
01:48:55 <ais523> (I vaguely remember it does)
01:49:15 <ais523> also fungot seems to be in a very destructive mood today
01:49:15 <fungot> ais523: banjo's big bald head turned towards her. ' not after them big red statues turned up behind me like that!' she said.
01:49:32 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:49:49 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
01:49:54 <fungot> izabera: maybe if i don't! it's inoperable!! do something about it.
01:50:02 <fizzie> ais523: It had one, but it hasn't been tweeting in a while.
01:50:09 <FireFly> fungot: I think that's what she's doing
01:50:09 <fungot> FireFly: come on... the true power of mako reactor. and...... like turks! believe it.
01:50:15 <izabera> where did you download the full script of ff7?
01:50:35 <ais523> probably gamefaqs, there are people there who spend most of their time transcribing games
01:50:48 <ais523> and ff7 is popular enough that it's likely to have been transcribed by now
01:50:58 <FireFly> wait, not just ripping the text from the ROM?
01:51:05 <FireFly> That seems like it'd be much easier
01:51:21 <fizzie> I think they often start with a text dump.
01:52:00 <izabera> http://www.yinza.com/Fandom/Script.html
01:52:17 <fizzie> ct is the other game script fungot has.
01:52:18 <fungot> fizzie: cloud!? da-chao statue and leviathan are ashamed!!
01:52:43 <fizzie> Ooh, the swiping keyboard on my phone has learned "fungot".
01:52:43 <fungot> fizzie: guess i should fill the store with flowers. it'll be all right or not. that is where the knowledge of the jenova project. beautiful... lucrecia.
01:53:02 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
01:53:06 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
01:53:11 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
01:53:18 <fungot> izabera: come to think that a superhero! ya can't just ignore that and skip directly. your luck, lumpy? i took. and elan took. and elan took and i many years, and i see now that it's any good?
01:53:38 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
01:53:40 <fungot> izabera: in my mail now. i fully expect that every action it takes 103416 bytes to your terminal. ( 3) restart the cron daemon by doing an up-front screening of potential users, it's a distributed operating system designed to run a program to do
01:53:59 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
01:54:15 <FireFly> fungot: any wisdom from the olden times?
01:54:15 <fungot> FireFly: there are some in cl), isn't it?
01:54:17 <izabera> i expected that thing on esr's website
01:54:40 <fungot> FireFly: razor-x also didn't read the page i pointed you to the conclusion that you are adamant against learning anything whatsoever, earn rightfully a bad grade in the class, the object model seems to fit exactly
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02:17:11 <izabera> i extracted all the urls, removed the irrelevant ones, splitted the words, counted them
02:17:33 <izabera> and the result looks boring
02:17:58 <izabera> my corpus: cat .weechat/logs/* | grep -Eo 'https?://[^[:blank:]]*|www\.[^[:blank:]]*' | grep -Ev 'pastebin|codepad|wiki|youtu|arin\.ga|ideone|gist\.|sprunge|ix\.io|paste|imgur|\.(jpg|png|pdf)$' > list
02:18:07 -!- draghi has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:18:26 <izabera> the analysis thingy: sed -r '/.*\/./s|.*/||; s|^(https?://)?(www\.)?||; s/\.(html|php)$//' list | tr -sc A-Za-z '\n' | grep -wEv 'the|.|..|with|an[dy]' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n
02:20:38 <izabera> 495 linux 516 vim 794 awk 800 bash :\
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02:22:16 <izabera> well i do have 5 sexy 9 sex
02:30:53 <newsham> shachaf: i'm into cryptography?
02:33:47 <newsham> not exessively so.. i know a little.. enough to be dangerous, but luckily enough to not try to do it on my own
02:34:36 <shachaf> but are you into newshamcoin
02:35:08 <newsham> i dont hold any ecurrencies
02:35:30 <newsham> i once bought $100 in btc and sold some for $800 or so, and gave the rest to my brother
02:36:32 <newsham> i think it was worth $20k or so at one point?
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03:01:13 <zzo38> It seem like complicated and does not deal with non-HTTP URLs. (It is also possible for a URI to not be used to point to anything, although I suppose that is rare.)
03:04:09 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> How does one define a ring syntactically <-- it's a variety of algebras, which is defined by a set of operators and equations, which is pretty syntactic as math goes
03:04:48 <oerjan> a + b = b + a, a + (-a) = 0, a + 0 = a, a + (b + c) = (a + b) + c well that's the group part
03:06:27 <oerjan> a * (b * c) = (a * b) * c, a * 1 = a, 1 * a = a, a * (b + c) = (a * b) + (a * c), (a + b) * c = (a * c) + (b * c)
03:06:47 <oerjan> 1 part sometimes considered optional
03:07:56 <shachaf> how does one define a banana phone syntactically
03:09:01 <ais523> it was a bot, that IIRC output news headlines to the channel every now and then
03:09:10 <ais523> I think it was just created as a pun on "newsham"
03:09:15 <oerjan> shachaf: well you start with 7 rings and a swatter... -----###
03:09:26 <shachaf> did newsham have to do with it?
03:09:58 <oerjan> ...i think that corrected to @oeis
03:10:11 <ais523> well it's only two letters out
03:10:21 <oerjan> i vaguely think elliott made news-ham
03:10:50 <ais523> I think it might have done something else too, but I can't remember what
03:11:45 <ais523> well, the channel was frequently offtopic back then, even more so than now I think
03:11:58 <ais523> hppavilion[1] has dragged it ontopic a good proportion of the time, which I find to be a really good thing
03:14:22 <zzo38> See if you make Magic: the Gathering puzzles involving split second
03:15:36 <ais523> zzo38: make it involve morph to counter the split second!
03:16:03 <zzo38> ais523: Of course that is one thing, but there is many other thing to do.
03:17:34 <zzo38> Other thing though in some cases you might be able to do triggered abilities that now cannot be triggered due to split second, and then possibly you have to counter the spell with the split second anyways
03:20:19 <zzo38> Another idea would be puzzle that the solution change very different based on a few variations such as whose turn it is or what version of the rules is being played, or the timestamps of objects
03:24:51 <JesseH> So lets say someone has written a BF interpreter and compiler, and has written an interpreter for their own language which is super simple (can just split it by :'s and execute easily), what would be a good language to write an interpreter or compiler for that would teach something new, but not me too difficult of a project?
03:25:19 <Sgeo> Listening to a side-by-side comparison of Unison vs... whatver the heck I installed on here. Unison is winning
03:25:22 <Sgeo> Why did I ever abandon it
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03:26:11 <ais523> JesseH: you're looking for a language to implement that isn't too hard, but is more difficult in terms of parsing and/or semantics?
03:26:31 <ais523> what language are you writing in? (this affects my choice of answer)
03:27:54 <JesseH> ais523, Excuse me if the question sounds dumb, but I'm looking for something that wouldn't take a month, hopefully just a day or two, and still teach me something new about parsing and what not. I'd probably want to write it in Lua, JavaScript, or PHP, as those are the languages I'm currently working with.
03:28:01 <oerjan> i'll suggest underload since ais523 might feel too biased to do it hth
03:28:14 <ais523> oerjan: I was going to suggest Underload, but based on what JesseH's saying I think it'd be too easy
03:28:31 <ais523> because the languages he's mentioned have the primitives Underload needs already
03:29:13 <ais523> Forte would work well, yes
03:29:50 <ais523> JesseH: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte
03:30:00 <JesseH> I'll check that one out. :-)
03:33:59 <zzo38> Mana abilities can also be use while spell with split-second is on the stack, as well as morph, and some mana abilities have other effects too (such as sacrifice or damage or discarding), and you could have triggers based on any of these things, so you could potentially do many things with this, possibly though in an otherwise more complicated puzzle involving other things too, split-second is just one part of them
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03:43:18 <hppavilion[1]> So... has anyone started on an Esoteric Widget Toolkit yet?
03:44:03 <shachaf> ais523: What's the right channel for all the non-esoteric things you talk about in here?
03:44:08 <ais523> I don't think so (unless you count Gammaplex, or was it Deltaplex? which is a bit different)
03:44:18 <ais523> shachaf: sadly, probably here
03:44:24 <ais523> #esoteric-offtopic was used at some point
03:44:48 <ais523> my complaint's more about absence of ontopic conversation, rather than presence of offtopic conversation
03:45:11 <shachaf> I tend to find (some of) the offtopic conversation more interesting.
03:46:00 <shachaf> But I don't want to make the channel worse for you, so I wonder what I should be doing.
03:46:19 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: aha, could be
03:46:36 <ais523> some greek letter, anyway
03:46:50 <ais523> shachaf: the offtopic conversation (that we have nowadays, at least) rarely offends me
03:47:05 <ais523> just when this channel isn't discussing esolangs, I don't really have much of a reason to be here
03:47:18 <ais523> because similar offtopic conversations (on similar topics) can be held in half the channels I'm in
03:47:48 <ais523> and fwiw, there's quite a user overlap between the channels I'm in too
03:47:57 <ais523> maybe we should just make a social channel for that overlap
03:48:25 <shachaf> I don't think I'm in any of those channels.
03:48:45 <oerjan> nah just make a schedule for switching the discussion from channel to channel stwh
03:48:46 <shachaf> Maybe I used to be in some NetHack channels.
03:48:53 <ais523> shachaf: this is the only channel you share with me, right
03:49:04 <ais523> oerjan: what does the 's' stand for?
03:49:23 <ais523> I can guess the other three!
03:49:31 <pikhq> I think I need to creep on ais523 more. :P
03:49:56 <ais523> also I seem to have got into an argument on Reddit about whether anything in the real world can be TC, and if not, whether we should just use "TC" to mean bounded-storage machines
03:50:18 <ais523> pikhq: huh, you're in #tasvideos?
03:50:20 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a language called GUFunge ("Goo-funj"). It would be like Befunge with GUI support.
03:50:26 <ais523> I checked to see which channels we shared but didn't expect that one, for some reason
03:50:31 <pikhq> As of like two weeks ago; I mostly lurk.
03:50:39 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: why don't you add a GUI fingerprint to Befunge 98?
03:50:42 <shachaf> pft, at least get into that argument in the real world, rather than on reddit
03:50:46 <pikhq> ais523: I don't do TASing but I've lurked tasvideos for freaking ages.
03:50:47 <ais523> that way you'll be compatible with all the existing programs
03:51:10 <ais523> pikhq: fair enough; computer games are an esolang, after all
03:51:26 <hppavilion[1]> So I had an idea for part of an EsoGUI toolkit. Specifically, for the geometry manager
03:52:50 <shachaf> I think a definition broad enough to include computer games is broad enough to include...
03:52:54 <zzo38> I believe offtopic should be allowed on this channel too, but ontopic should have priority in case there is interference that someone complain about
03:53:00 <ais523> `addquote <shachaf> What is an esolang? <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's an archaic term for an Esolang
03:53:03 <HackEgo> 1256) <shachaf> What is an esolang? <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's an archaic term for an Esolang
03:53:08 <pikhq> shachaf: FWIW many computer games are TC in esoteric ways.
03:53:13 <ais523> that is craizly philosophical
03:53:25 <shachaf> pikhq: Sure, but being TC isn't a requirement for a language either.
03:53:31 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1]'s E down to size -----###
03:53:52 <ais523> I think that being TC is a sufficient condition for being a language, although not a necessary one
03:53:52 <hppavilion[1]> I just remembered an idea I had around when I first joined this channel...
03:54:17 <ais523> and that if something is a programming language, but not intended to be a usable programming language or a target for compilation into
03:54:27 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Which is what?
03:54:34 <ais523> that said, some languages which /are/ intended to be a target for compilation into are also esolangs
03:54:35 <pikhq> And thus Pokemon is a neat esolang.
03:54:37 <ais523> (e.g. Underlambda tier 1)
03:55:02 <hppavilion[1]> Queue Messenger System. It'd be a fun little `quote-like system where you can "&sendmsg <msg>" to send enqueue a message and "&getmsg" to get a message out.
03:55:22 <shachaf> What are other conditions for being a language?
03:55:34 <pikhq> (I think Pokemon in particular is a great example because the ACE is fairly easily done by a knowledgeable human being.)
03:55:51 <shachaf> I think esolangs (by this sort of definition) which aren't intended to be esolangs I'd probably find more interesting.
03:55:57 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Implementable, barring memory limitations?
03:56:16 <ais523> shachaf: well, one class of esolangs is "languages intended to point out incorrect assumptions in definitions of a language"
03:56:29 <ais523> something like Minimum or Unnecessary is normally considered an esolang
03:56:42 <zzo38> When you can make general-purpose computation with stuff that was never intended to do so, then it might be of interest
03:56:43 <ais523> but it doesn't really have much in common with languages, and even less with programming
03:57:01 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well, it's basically just a queue
03:57:07 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Some esolangs are uncomputable; we have the category of it in esolang wiki
03:57:24 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: But those aren't, in the traditional sense, languages
03:57:34 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: hmm, you mean as something that the channel does?
03:57:50 <ais523> you could probably write a queue into HackEgo
03:58:00 <ais523> but I think `quote might be more interesting
03:58:07 <ais523> or perhaps we could resurrect optbot
03:58:12 <pikhq> C++ templates are a pretty humorous example of an esolang.
03:58:23 <ais523> (when you mentioned optbot's name, it repeated a random past line from the channel)
03:58:34 <pikhq> Maybe a tad bit depressing that people use it, but still.
03:58:36 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: no, I mean reimplement optbot's functionality
03:58:43 <ais523> that way people wouldn't have to remember to put messages in
03:58:52 <pikhq> (thank god work bans that sort of "clever" shit)
03:58:59 <ais523> and you could still get messages out
03:59:11 <ais523> pikhq: it's fine if people use it with the intention of it being an esolang
03:59:22 <ais523> the use in Boost I'm less certain about
03:59:30 <hppavilion[1]> I could do that, but it doesn't preserve the "Letter to the Future" aspect
03:59:32 <ais523> if I think of it like an unsafe block from Rust, I can live with it
03:59:44 <HackEgo> 496) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell
04:00:09 <pikhq> Google's policy on Boost in particular amuses me.
04:00:18 <pikhq> They have a short whitelist of parts of Boost you may use.
04:00:35 <pikhq> Those being ones they've evaluated as not sucking.
04:01:32 <pikhq> Not that I'm likely to do much C++ at Google, but I was a bit curious and read through the style guide a bit more thoroughly.
04:01:40 <zzo38> TeX probably kind of is intended for some general-purpose programming, but for doing things that are not much related to typesetting, the code can be a bit strange. Actually even if it is, such as if you are sorting an index, the code can be a bit strange since previously external programs would probably have been used instead.
04:01:46 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll make my own bot, and perhaps add that functionality
04:01:47 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: another thing you can do is send messages to people's alternate nicks when they aren't online
04:02:05 <ais523> which is a fun way to do a "message to the future"
04:02:24 <ais523> (the use of the alternate nick means that there's likely to be quite some delay before it's actually received)
04:02:41 <hppavilion[1]> But I like the "Message to the Future from the Past of Esolangs" concept
04:02:55 <zzo38> Could you add a program into HackEgo to do?
04:03:12 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps make it a priority queue where priority of enqueued messages goes down as time progresses
04:03:27 <shachaf> I don't like programs that store things in HackEgo transiently because it messes up the commit history.
04:03:39 <shachaf> It would be nice if there was an uncommitted filesystem.
04:07:04 <ais523> hmm, I see half the things hppavilion[1] says and get annoyed because I don't like the ideas, and then realise it's my own assumptions that need re-evaluating
04:07:14 <ais523> esolangs are all about violating assumptions, much like art
04:07:24 <ais523> I don't think I'd have come up with http://esolangs.org/wiki/90 otherwise
04:07:38 <ais523> chess over IRC is totally doable, btw, although I haven't played chess in ages
04:07:45 <HackEgo> datergivcoin quccoin miscoin synoecoin ediumcoin genorfcoin brighfivecoin datiocoin carmcoin catchanilcoin bfcucoin superdcoin tobeliancoin edwardcoin woodcoin halcoin kimlcoin betacoin phistcoin habeiotcoin
04:08:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[90]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44584&oldid=44523 * Ais523 * (+17) add year category
04:08:40 <\oren\> chess with cryptographically precommitted moves 2 turns in advance
04:08:42 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: zzo38 has invented a ton of esoteric chess variants, I think
04:08:57 <hppavilion[1]> A violation of the basic metarules of chess? Yes. Do I care? No.
04:09:23 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps an exploration game, much like Dwarf Fortress. But chessier
04:09:46 <hppavilion[1]> Probably shouldn't do it over IRC though, now that I consider it
04:10:08 * ais523 vaguely remembers a game called ChessRogue
04:10:18 <ais523> but I've never played it, I only know it by reputation
04:11:29 <ais523> if you're anything like me, you'll end up starting a lot of projects and not finishing them
04:11:33 <ais523> but it's a good way to avoid becoming bored
04:11:48 <\oren\> see you encrypt a string containing a chess move like "pawn to a3 capture"
04:12:00 <\oren\> and send it to your enemy
04:12:15 <ais523> \oren\: what happens if your intended move was illegal?
04:12:24 <ais523> because of things your opponent did in between?
04:12:41 <ais523> I guess you could just lose the game, in which case the entire point of the game could be trying to win by invalidating your opponent's planned move
04:12:47 <ais523> checks would be very powerful in that regard
04:12:50 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Each client keeps a record of moves and terminates the game if the enemy cheats
04:13:24 <hppavilion[1]> So if you use a client that attempts to cheat, then you lose the game
04:13:38 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: \oren\'s idea is that you have to commit to moves in advance
04:13:41 <ais523> so it's not exactly cheating
04:13:44 <ais523> but making a promise you're unable to keep
04:14:00 <ais523> I wouldn't call that "cheating", but it does seem like a dubious operation
04:14:58 <hppavilion[1]> Good clients would, of course, check ahead of time that you don't make an invalid move so you don't lose. REALLY good clients make this disablable for hardcore players
04:15:44 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: no, say it starts 1. e4 (committing to e5) c5 2. e5, that's fine
04:16:08 <ais523> but after 1. e4 (commiting to e5) e5, White can't play e5 now even though they committed to it
04:16:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just listing off my own, technical specs for an unrelated game
04:16:24 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I did invent many chess variant, many of which I have never put into the computer yet
04:16:29 <zzo38> And some just ideas
04:16:49 <\oren\> yeah. so you send an encypted move to your enemy, then on you next turn you send him the password for it, so he can decrpyt it
04:16:54 <hppavilion[1]> Do you have any `wisdom on the subject such that I may make my own strange chess?
04:17:45 <zzo38> I don't know if there are any wisdom files about it
04:18:49 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
04:19:22 <zzo38> I invented a game that is designed to be as different from chess as possible while still being the same as chess. For one thing it is one-dimensional, it has different armies, you can use a deck of cards, etc.
04:19:59 <hppavilion[1]> I think the rules should be made by this channel, and be designed for esotericness (what else?).
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04:20:58 <zzo38> Another chess variant I made up is based on the limitations of Famicom PPU
04:21:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Unnamed Chess Variant]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44585 * Hppavilion1 * (+178) Initialized Page
04:22:13 <zzo38> Yes you could try to make up such a thing
04:22:45 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll make a collection of Pythonic chess clients that we can play over sockets. If anyone wants to play, they'll be on GitHub.
04:23:10 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Do you have any suggestions for the main variant?
04:23:27 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: really you should just ask zzo38, who is way better at esochess than I am
04:24:15 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: What are the main features I should add? Weird board? Weird pieces? Strange extra parts of the ruleset?
04:26:32 <ais523> how do you define "semicooperative"?
04:26:54 <ais523> there are of course 1-player cooperative card games already (the "patience" family), which might lead to a starting point
04:27:01 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit. Unicode doesn't have any nonstandard chess symbols. Guess ⚧ will be a piece xD
04:27:28 <quintopia> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_(card_game) this is a good starting point
04:27:37 <quintopia> semi-cooperative means competitive/cooperative
04:27:39 <ais523> most nonstandard chess pieces I've seen use regular chess symbols
04:27:41 <zzo38> Try the chess font I made for "TeX Chess"
04:27:51 <zzo38> That one has many nonstandard chess symbols included
04:27:53 <ais523> the main exception is "unicorn", which is normally drawn using the symbol for a knight but with an extra horn
04:28:41 <zzo38> (This font is intended for printing though, and might not be as good for use on screen)
04:29:41 <zzo38> The font I made (as well as the TeX Chess macro package, which also supports many variants and not only FIDE) is: http://zzo38computer.org/tex/texchess.zip
04:29:49 <ais523> hmm, Tri looks interesting
04:30:21 <ais523> although I suspect it could be "broken" via agreeing on entirely conventional meanings for the first few discards
04:32:31 <zzo38> Do you know how to play shogi?
04:32:44 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: is it, though, if you agree that before the game?
04:32:54 <ais523> zzo38: I did once, but can't remember all the details
04:34:08 <pikhq> Y'know, it's kinda sad. I want tea right now, but I accidentally bought decaf.
04:34:35 <pikhq> I'm still gonna make some, but it's not going to make me quite as happy.
04:34:40 <ais523> I was actually looking at contract bridge quite a bit recently
04:34:47 <ais523> because it reminded me of Rubicon
04:34:54 <ais523> and esoprogramming in general
04:35:11 <ais523> in that game you're trying to communicate a bunch with your partner via a prearranged protocol over a very low-bandwidth channel
04:36:06 <pikhq> Decaf black tea is definitely not the best.
04:36:14 <ais523> nowadays Bridge has a rule that you have to tell your opponents what protocol you're using
04:36:27 <ais523> and that particularly complex/unusual ones are banned in lower-level tournaments
04:38:18 <shachaf> I haven't played Bridge in ~15 years, I don't remember much.
04:40:10 <ais523> there are all sorts of charts about which conventions are too complicated (different ones in the US and UK)
04:40:21 <ais523> I've been slowly trying to design a Bridge protocol to skirt the edges of them
04:40:31 <ais523> while making close to the best possible use of bandwidth
04:42:47 <zzo38> Do you know much about Famicom PPU?
04:51:51 <ais523> I know only a very small amount
04:51:55 <ais523> more than zero, but not by much
04:52:08 <ais523> it can draw four sprites and a background, right?
04:52:15 <ais523> …that's about the extent of my knowledge
04:53:22 <zzo38> Actually you can have up to 64 sprites
04:53:55 <ais523> onscreen at the same time?
04:54:28 <zzo38> Only 8 sprites per scanline though; any more will not be drawn on that scanline
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05:03:08 <HackEgo> 274) <elliott> A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing returns would give; yet under quid pro quo one can agglutinate fabula and sujet into vagrancies untold. <elliott> See? I'm intellectual. \ 680) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover.
05:03:17 <HackEgo> 680) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
05:04:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that's from the continuous chess variant we once discussed here
05:04:45 <oerjan> except, possibly, the Atlantic part.
05:05:39 <oerjan> basically a piece covered a square and you could move only parts of it
05:06:38 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure if you could move two half-pieces in one move or the like
05:06:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Non-sexual]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44586 * 66.58.231.93 * (+89) Created page with "This category lists all languages that are not, in some way, relevant to human sexuality."
05:08:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Non-sexual]]": unapproved category
05:08:23 <ais523> I'm pretty sure that was trolling
05:08:35 <oerjan> darn you beat me by a second
05:08:36 <ais523> but for now, let's delete it with an iron-clad deletion reason and see what happens
05:08:53 <oerjan> my reason was "Do I really need a reason"
05:10:47 <ais523> [Whois] hppavilion[1] is ~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net (realname)
05:10:58 <ais523> quite a coincidence of IP there…
05:11:36 <ais523> just don't do it again
05:11:44 <oerjan> darn and i had almost concluded that could be hagb4rd
05:12:12 <hppavilion[1]> That satisfies my biannual (every 2 years, not twice a year) random troll. I'm done for now.
05:12:13 <ais523> right, I was checking to see if the IP was a known troll because I thought it might be something much worse
05:12:41 <oerjan> i had two different whois checks in my terminal window and scrolled up too far
05:14:08 <oerjan> and the other wasn't hagb4rd either, just german, i'd forgotten about it.
05:15:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you are forgiven http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20050606
05:20:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Blind]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44587&oldid=21436 * Ais523 * (+575) /* Computational class */ is TC; the simplest way is to encode a cellular automaton
05:20:50 <ais523> I just proved a language TC
05:21:10 <ais523> so I made actual esolanging progress today, always good to see
05:22:08 <hppavilion[1]> The concept of an "Orphaned WikiPage list" is kind of paradoxical
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05:26:02 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: the trick is that it's not made of wikilinks, but of ordinary HTML links
05:38:04 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: something much worse than you messing around, that is
05:38:27 <ais523> my first thought was "I wonder if this is someone who we banned from esowiki in the past, editing logged out to dodge the ban"
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05:41:15 <hppavilion[1]> How do I fork something in an Organization as a new thing on GitHub?
05:41:22 <hppavilion[1]> Or is that bad practice and I should use branches?
05:55:10 <hppavilion[1]> So to repeat an idea I brought up earlier to see if it's of any interest: GUI over IRC
05:55:49 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: my experience with github is that branches save a lot of trouble compared to forks
05:56:19 <ais523> in actual git their mostly equivalent, but github screws up its fork handling for organizations really badly
05:57:26 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see a way for people to communicate via GUIs
05:57:40 <hppavilion[1]> Wouldn't that be an interesting form of communication? Probably useless, but...
05:58:17 <ais523> couldn't you just use a GUI IRC client?
05:58:20 <ais523> or do you mean something else?
05:58:24 <ais523> (ever seen MS Comic Chat?)
05:59:47 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: When I say GUI over IRC, I mean that the /messages/ can include GUI
06:00:34 <ais523> GUI has a specific meaning (a user interface that uses graphics for communication)
06:00:42 <ais523> sending user interfaces over IRC doesn't make a whole lot of sense
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06:00:49 <ais523> unless you wanted to, say, tunnel X over IRC
06:00:50 <shachaf> with each message, you send a user interface to the other party which replaces their irc client
06:00:57 <shachaf> they have to use that ui to respond to you
06:01:38 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: That gives me an idea. Esoteric IRC client
06:03:21 <shachaf> There's a Go idiom where you send a message over a channel that includes a channel to send a response over.
06:03:24 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I was planning an esoteric IRC client once
06:03:37 <ais523> one of the features was that you could swap nicks with someone else
06:03:48 <ais523> without the server or anyone else in the room knowing
06:03:59 <ais523> (technically, it worked via getting each of the client to post messages for the other)
06:04:50 <hppavilion[1]> What other features would be fun to mess with people with?
06:04:53 <shachaf> I guess maybe that's also a pi calculus idiom.
06:05:07 <hppavilion[1]> I'm sure that got convoluted and slow very quickly
06:05:20 <ais523> well it was never actually implemented
06:05:32 <ais523> pi calculus is sort-of a concurrency version of lambda calculus
06:05:47 <ais523> (i.e. that models concurrency rather than functions)
06:06:08 <ais523> and an idiom is a phrase or other short sequence that has taken on a meaning of its own
06:06:21 <ais523> and is used directly without really thinking about the constituent parts
06:06:37 <ais523> e.g. a moderately common idiom in C is the !! operator, which casts integer to boolean
06:06:46 <ais523> (it's really two not operators, but people think of it as a unit)
06:08:44 <ais523> in natural language, idioms often make no sense when you look at their constituent words
06:09:01 <ais523> but in programming language, it has to be at least correct enough that the compiler understands
06:11:19 <shachaf> In Ruby, "x while y" means "while y; x; end", and "begin x end" means the same as "x", but "begin x end while y" means "x; while y; x; end"
06:11:54 <zzo38> In C and some other program language you can use macros though
06:12:22 <zzo38> But I have used !! in C as well as in JavaScript codes and some other programming languages; it is not only for C
06:13:16 <ais523> shachaf: that's similar to Perl, where "x while y;" means "while (y) {x};", and "do {x}" is equivalent to "x" if "x" is an expression, but "do {x} while y;" means "x; while (y) {x};"
06:14:12 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone feel like developing their own little free Wolfram-like language over the next 40 years, and making it FOSS just as a middle finger to the people who thought it was a good idea to make a proprietary programming language?
06:14:22 <JesseH> So Forte is looking interesting.
06:14:33 <shachaf> ais523: Probably inspired by that.
06:14:34 <JesseH> hppavilion[1], Hell to the yeah.
06:14:55 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well Wolfram's language itself is pretty terrible, to be fair
06:15:04 <ais523> the only redeeming feature is the library it's normally shipped with
06:15:20 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I do think it is good idea to make up a free stuff like that yes. But it can even be a better kind of program too
06:15:21 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: True. I don't trust any language that includes non-ascii characters builtin
06:15:22 <ais523> which I suspect took a huge amount of effort
06:15:36 <shachaf> Anyway I was thinking of a case where something used to be an idiom with a meaning in a language, but then the constructs it was made of were changed, but it was kept around as a special case.
06:15:58 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: That library is pretty amazing though. I mean, blurring faces in <20 lines of code is impressive.
06:16:19 <ais523> well, a library can do anything, really
06:16:32 <ais523> it's what proportion of useful things you can do that you care about
06:16:43 <ais523> I've written a library that simulates NetHack games, you can use it with a few lines of code
06:16:50 <ais523> but it doesn't do anything else
06:16:59 <oerjan> shachaf: what about that XOR EAX, EAX thing
06:17:10 <zzo38> Mostly reason to make FOSS Wolfram-like language so that you can run the same program on both
06:17:10 <shachaf> I guess that's an example.
06:17:43 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of want to develop a language for this though
06:17:54 <ais523> oerjan: but "xor eax, eax" zeroes rax under x86_64 semantics without a special case
06:18:18 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that making a language that complex that doesn't use non-ascii characters is a bit absurd
06:18:19 <oerjan> ais523: um that was the point?
06:18:26 <shachaf> That's supposed to be xchg eax, eax, isn't it?
06:18:46 <oerjan> of course i may have misremembered what the special case was
06:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> I guess the IDE adds characters like that for you...
06:19:11 <ais523> oerjan: I thought the point you were trying to make was that a special case was added just so that you could zero well
06:19:22 <ais523> also I was thinking about possibly there might be something to do with nop
06:19:35 <ais523> you can put a bunch of addressing modes on nop in order to make it longer
06:19:45 <ais523> but putting addressing modes on xchg eax, eax would cause problems
06:19:55 <zzo38> A SQLite extension to access various data such as weather and so on a bit similarly to Mathematica might be a good idea in my opinion
06:19:56 <ais523> xchg eax, (eax) means something quite different (and doesn't have a corresponding opcode, I think)
06:19:58 <shachaf> Well, 0x90 doesn't mean xchg eax, eax anymore in x86-64
06:20:04 <shachaf> Since that would zero the upper 32 bits.
06:20:36 <shachaf> ais523 is the expert in 0x90, I guess.
06:20:38 <hppavilion[1]> (I now have to actualize my goal xD) I want to develop a fully-functional, high-level language, with as powerful tools as Mathematica and the like, just because I'm stuck in mind-numbing boredom. I have no clue how to do this, and am horribly underqualified, but dammit I want to.
06:21:21 <ais523> so what's the idiomatic way to truncate rax to 32 bits in x86_64? (not that it's likely to be a very useful operation in most cases, I'm just curious)
06:22:15 <shachaf> Also, xor eax, eax is implemented as a special case in CPUs, even if its behavior isn't special-cased.
06:22:43 <shachaf> Since it doesn't depend on the value of eax, unlike other uses of xor.
06:22:44 <ais523> does "xor ebx, ebx" have an encoding?
06:24:58 <shachaf> In x86-64 xchg eax, eax is encoded as 87 c0
06:26:05 <ais523> huh, so there was a "short encoding" for certain xchg commands, but also a general one
06:27:16 <shachaf> I guess 87 c0 also encodes xchg eax, eax in x86-32, but assemblers just don't generate it.
06:27:40 <ais523> the only reason to do so would be for alignment purposes
06:27:51 <ais523> and most assemblers don't align via generating inefficient encodings, but rather by adding nops
06:28:05 <ais523> alignment padding on x86_64 is hilarious
06:28:07 <shachaf> xchg eax, eax is a nop in x86-32
06:28:14 <ais523> you start with nop and pile on as many modifiers as you can
06:28:19 <shachaf> I used to have a bunch of tools set up to look at things like this but I don't anymore.
06:28:39 <ais523> apparently you can give data16 multiple times
06:28:47 <shachaf> There's a collection of fastest nops for each size for each CPU in Linux somewhere.
06:28:51 <ais523> to make arbitrarily long commands (although I suspect there's a limit)
06:29:02 <shachaf> Aren't x86 instructions limited to 10 bytes or so?
06:31:50 <ais523> x86_64 clearly has a higher limit than that, although I'm not sure of the precise value
06:32:21 <ais523> 15 would make sense (to allow alignment on 16-byte boundaries)
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06:46:46 <hppavilion[1]> So... no one wants to help in the design of my FOSS counter-wolfram lang?
06:50:38 <fizzie> I seem to recall a limit of 15, too.
06:52:00 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: we're just really busy
06:52:06 <ais523> there's a ton of things I'd like to help with but I don't have time
06:52:18 <zzo38> I do not know a lot about Mathematica though, so I cannot say. But, I have suggested SQLite extensions which could substitute for some of the data-access stuff such as weather and countries and chemistry and whatever, and then another extension could be used to plot the data on the graph.
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07:30:01 <izabera> why do you know the hex version of assembly code?
07:31:52 <izabera> do you need to know them for writing compilers or what?
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07:38:17 <ais523> izabera: you need to know it when writing assemblers, and it also matters if for some reason the number of bytes that one command assembles to matters (which it did, kind-of, in this conversation)
07:38:44 <ais523> also stating the encoding of a command is a decent way to prove that there /is/ such an encoding
07:41:05 <izabera> i wouldn't really call that a proof...
07:53:31 <fizzie> `` o=$(tempfile -s .o); echo 'add $1, %eax' | as -o $o - && objdump -d $o | grep '0:' | sed -e 's/\t/ /g;s/ */ /g;' # possible HackEgo command here
07:53:32 <HackEgo> 0: 83 c0 01 add $0x1,%eax
07:53:36 <oerjan> the real reason is that true programmer geeks soak up numbers like sponges hth (disclaimer: not a true programmer geek)
07:53:58 <fizzie> Possibly get rid of the 0: too.
07:55:23 <izabera> oerjan: i understand that but i can't see how one can ever be exposed to that
07:56:09 <izabera> and i realize that it may sound like an accusation, but i'm really just curious
07:56:15 <shachaf> llvm-mc is one of the tools I was thinking of.
07:59:16 <izabera> also what is that tempfile command? it's not in the arch repos
08:01:01 <shachaf> Part of a package called debianutils, here.
08:06:18 <izabera> what's the difference with mktemp? :\
08:09:03 <shachaf> "tempfile is deprecated; you should use mktemp(1) instead."
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11:38:15 <fizzie> The difference is that I didn't remember what the command-line command was, so I just looked for tab completion from "temp".
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13:02:30 <izabera> is there any tool that can be used to simulate a laggy connection?
13:10:03 <ais523> yes but I can't remember what it is
13:10:15 <ais523> some iptables setting, perhaps?
13:37:29 <int-e> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/614795/simulate-delayed-and-dropped-packets-on-linux
13:39:17 <izabera> most google results are windows only or bsd/osx only
13:39:42 <izabera> https://jagt.github.io/clumsy/ this looks pretty cool :\
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14:13:13 <HackEgo> antediluvian/We could tell you what antediluvian means, but that would just open a flood of questions.
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14:52:43 <fizzie> There's a number of them.
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14:54:39 <fizzie> http://info.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/dummynet/ is one.
14:56:04 <boily> holy fungot is that one ugly website...
14:56:04 <fungot> boily: i can do something like: allocate cons-cells and bigger object separately, tagging cons-cells with fnord and outmoded concepts such as memory addresses, or look at peter wegner's more recent 10 years or so, iirc
14:56:05 <int-e> . o O ( The original meaning of antediluvian has been washed away. )
14:56:26 <fizzie> Yes, I've noted the ugly website too.
14:56:59 <fizzie> Oh, and Facebook's ATC also made the news.
14:57:05 <fizzie> http://facebook.github.io/augmented-traffic-control/
14:57:35 <HackEgo> mockingbird/mockingbird is watching you.. closely! Is it mocking you? Probably.
14:58:08 <boily> facebook has an ATC???
14:58:36 <fizzie> It's perhaps a bit more Linux-native (iptables + tc, as opposed to FreeBSD ipfw stuff), and very much designed for testing mobile apps against "reasonable" profiles.
14:58:57 <boily> bon samedi pis plein d'affaires de même!
14:59:03 <lambdabot> CYUL 031400Z 06017KT 30SM FEW025 BKN240 08/02 A3062 RMK CU1CI6 SLP369
14:59:06 <lambdabot> KATL 031452Z 04009KT 10SM SCT012 OVC025 17/13 A2971 RMK AO2 DZE14 SLP056 P0000 60001 T01670133 53005
14:59:23 <boily> quintopia: pfeuh. you vile bourgeois living in warm weathers.
15:00:07 <lambdabot> EGLL 031450Z AUTO 22006KT 190V260 7000 NCD 16/10 Q1013
15:00:50 <fizzie> It was a cold (FSVO) and dim morning, but then turned out to be all nicelike.
15:01:39 <quintopia> this week i learned that the shape of finland is very generic and nondescript
15:01:53 <fizzie> Huh? It's human-shaped.
15:02:26 <fizzie> A woman wearing a dress, to be more precise.
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15:03:22 <quintopia> it still is not as readily visually identifiable as thailand or mexico or mauritania :)
15:03:41 <fizzie> Maybe the other arm would help, but we no longer have it.
15:04:36 <fizzie> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Finland#/media/File:Finland_1920.png
15:04:42 <fizzie> Well, maybe that's not much of an improvement.
15:04:42 <boily> well, Finland would have to exist first if we want to describe its shape.
15:05:36 <fizzie> (Also the arms are proportionally speaking rather tiny.)
15:09:03 <ais523> where does this theory that finland doesn't exist come from?
15:09:12 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
15:10:32 <quintopia> https://m.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2qjohv/what_did_your_parents_show_you_to_do_that_you/
15:11:01 <quintopia> this kid was raised not to believe in it
15:11:16 <HackEgo> Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize.
15:11:26 <HackEgo> Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
15:11:47 <int-e> And therefore, Math is Peace.
15:12:37 <boily> the Recurscandinavian Countries.
15:12:41 <int-e> I suspect one of the premises is flawed. Or my hidden assumption that no Nobel price is announced twice.
15:13:28 <ais523> well, if norway and sweden are contained within each other
15:13:29 <ais523> wouldn't any announcement in either necessarily happen in both?
15:13:39 <ais523> just like an announcement that takes place in London also takes place in England
15:13:48 <HackEgo> olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation.
15:14:36 <int-e> `? misspellings of croissant
15:14:37 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:14:39 <int-e> that one is so silly.
15:15:50 <quintopia> i dont see how one could misspell it that badly
15:16:01 <int-e> `rm wisdom/devious
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15:17:04 <int-e> `cat wisdom/itidus*
15:17:05 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/itidus*: No such file or directory
15:17:09 <int-e> `` cat wisdom/itidus*
15:17:10 <HackEgo> itidus19 disappeared into a space-time anomaly \ itidus20's entry has been censored. \ itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
15:19:13 <int-e> `` cat wisdom/[ck]anada
15:19:14 <HackEgo> Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big. \ Your bankers' vain plazas never nutured no one / And your concrete expanses lay fallow in the sun / And your cities all collapsing while your corrupt mayors shrug
15:20:21 <int-e> is there a story here?
15:25:51 <boily> . o O ( /bʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀmɒ/ )
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15:29:11 <int-e> `le/rn drone sex/Drone sex has never been observed in the wild; in fact it's rare to see drones in their natural habitat because they are extremely shy. Controlled experiments with drones in captivity have only resulted in broken drones, and a rotor stuck in the ceiling. We are still looking for a biological explanation for the ever increasing drone population.
15:30:08 <boily> huh. HackEgo uses French guillemets. I didn't notice that before.
15:31:05 <int-e> well, `learn doesn't
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15:35:21 <HackEgo> Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?
15:35:33 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/footnote 8
15:35:35 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 shachaf
15:36:49 <int-e> damn now I'm wondering whether it really was footnote 8
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15:38:48 <boily> it's the eighth footnote. it's footnote eight. it is logical.
15:40:46 <HackEgo> A hollow voice says "Plugh"
15:40:54 <boily> I believe those are mine.
15:41:38 <int-e> Okay, it was footnote 11 (though it's quite possible that the joke was used several times).
15:41:50 <int-e> Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?
15:41:50 <int-e> This is the famous recursive footnote (Footnote 12).
15:43:44 <int-e> (But I first saw it in the Hitchhiker infocom game.)
15:51:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44588&oldid=44582 * Vihan * (+92) Added KEEP command
15:52:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44589&oldid=44588 * Vihan * (+48) Added example
15:53:18 <shachaf> int-e: I think I just didn't look up the number.
15:53:35 <shachaf> Or rather I reused the text and not the number, because the HackEgo footnote system is different.
15:53:44 <shachaf> But it wouldn't hurt to add a few footnotes throughout wisdom/.
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16:24:37 <b_jonas> ais523: there's one more thing I forgot about ayacc. Since you distribute it as a bare script file snapshot through http now, can you throw in an __END__ (or control-z character) to the end of the script so that there's an easy way to tell that the file is not truncated please?
16:25:12 <ais523> I'll think about it when I get back to ayacc
16:25:26 <ais523> this is a pretty unusual request, though (especially because the webserver doesn't exactly keep its size secret)
16:25:54 * boily drinks coffee. boily is happy.
16:25:55 <b_jonas> yes, it's not too important
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17:05:32 <fizzie> Some of these Selenium WebDriver method names are... well, overly Java-ey.
17:05:34 <fizzie> E.g. ExpectedConditions.frameToBeAvailableAndSwitchToIt.
17:09:23 -!- jalumar has joined.
17:09:55 <fizzie> They're also occasionally inconsistent. There's presenceOfAllElementsLocatedBy(By locator) but presenceOfElementLocated(By locator). The first one leads to duplicate By-ness if you use a By.id(...) style locator.
17:11:11 <oerjan> SeleniumWebDriverOverlyLongJavaMethodName
17:11:44 * oerjan doesn't actually know java case conventions
17:14:50 * oerjan translates boily's greeting and gets udder nonsence
17:15:30 <lambdabot> ENVA 031650Z 12004KT CAVOK 10/07 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 16007KT
17:16:33 <fizzie> UpperCamelCase for types and lowerCamelCase for other things, to summarize it very briefly.
17:16:52 <fizzie> And UPPERCASE_WITH_SNAKES for constants.
17:17:52 <oerjan> SERPENTIALLY_OVERWROUGHT_VALUES, check
17:21:24 <ais523> fizzie: classes are UpperCamelCase
17:21:28 <ais523> primitive types are in lowercase
17:21:37 <ais523> (because they wouldn't parse otherwise, among other things)
17:24:29 <boily> oerjan: «pis» can mean udder, but is common vernacular for “and” hth
17:24:34 <fizzie> I'm not sure if annotations count as classes, but they're in @UpperCamelCase.
17:26:21 <fizzie> And type variables are UpperCamelCase except often only one letter, and/or suffixed by a T.
17:26:53 <fizzie> According to the language standard, interfaces are not classes, and they're also UpCaCa.
17:27:42 <boily> oerjan: also, how do you pronounce "dt"?
17:28:02 <fizzie> (Annotations seem to count as interfaces, apparently.)
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17:29:16 <oerjan> boily: the d is silent hth
17:29:43 <oerjan> or alternatively, dt ~ tt in pronunciation
17:30:40 <oerjan> d is frequently silent in norwegian, especially nynorsk like this
17:31:45 <oerjan> (the d in god is also silent)
17:31:57 <boily> but not laurdag because reasons?
17:32:08 <oerjan> well there it starts a syllable
17:32:25 <ais523> boily: I often use «» as an IRC equivalent of <code></code>
17:32:27 <oerjan> it's mostly silent at the end of them, or before consonants
17:32:39 <ais523> because it's unlikely to clash with anything in the text I'm trying to quote (which is normally ASCII)
17:32:44 <ais523> possible exception: Perl 6
17:32:51 <oerjan> g is also often silent in similar places, but not in laurdag
17:34:59 <boily> Norwegian is weird... silent letters all over the place. *shudders*
17:35:00 <oerjan> also the a in the au diphtong is closer to ø than a
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17:36:23 <oerjan> it might depend on dialect, i saw a claim in wikipedia it was close to æ
17:37:59 <oerjan> boily: yeah you're lucky french doesn't have any
17:40:53 <boily> ours are all nicely sorted out at the end of each word, not haphazardly strewn in the middle of them! that's uncouth and vulgar. tsé.
17:41:42 <boily> what other language has perfected the art of «-aient»?
17:42:27 <oerjan> the -ai- part is also silent? i never got to the more advanced tenses in french class.
17:43:06 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, the "ai" is pronounced
17:43:22 <b_jonas> only the "-ent" ending is silent (and only in verbs)
17:44:34 <boily> third person plural indicative imperfect.
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17:53:49 <\oren\> I think I would have learned more french in high school had they stuck to teaching spoken frenh
17:55:16 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
17:55:33 <\oren\> but no, I remember tests in which you had to remember all these extra letters
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17:58:07 <boily> さぁ、c'est pas si pire que ça でしょう.
18:01:33 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
18:04:34 <boily> hppavellon[1]. do you conjugate your verbs?
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18:10:59 <oerjan> <fizzie> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Finland#/media/File:Finland_1920.png <-- huh i didn't know finland reached all the way to the arctic ocean between the world wars
18:11:12 <oerjan> and separating norway from the soviet union, even
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18:13:16 <\oren\> oerjan: would you prefer to have a buffer between you and Russia?
18:13:49 <oerjan> right now that might be nice
18:14:10 <oerjan> otoh then the finns would probably demand some of the sea border, too
18:16:30 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:17:00 <oerjan> Gregor: erm repository browser is no longer working halp
18:22:28 <int-e> oerjan: I got intermittent proxy failures earlier... try again?
18:23:00 <oerjan> i'm just getting this page with a guy in a hat tdnh
18:24:35 <int-e> odd, works for me.
18:25:11 <oerjan> with the url in the `help?
18:25:20 <int-e> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:26:02 <int-e> and I don't even have any funny entries in /etc/hosts (this has happened before... it was worth checking)
18:26:23 <oerjan> it just redirects, which is annoying because i cannot reload the page when i cannot get to it...
18:26:32 <oerjan> it did change gregor's hat, though
18:27:10 <int-e> Gregor has several hats?
18:27:39 <oerjan> is there really any possibility that you haven't noticed that before
18:27:47 <int-e> so he does, on http://codu.org/
18:28:07 <oerjan> look in the about me menu
18:28:12 <int-e> yes, I normally don't reload the page... and I'm only there very rarely.
18:29:12 <int-e> (what I really meant is that the picture on the home page changes randomly... didn't realize that before)
18:30:44 <int-e> oerjan: but still I have no clue how you end up on that page since codu usually prints 404 rather than redirecting you to the root...
18:31:36 <int-e> have you tried a different browser?
18:31:57 <int-e> are you behind any funny filters that would object to the word "sex"?
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18:33:11 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think the green highlighting in http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm is inaccurate
18:34:37 <int-e> `fetch http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg
18:34:41 <HackEgo> 2015-10-03 18:34:27 URL:http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi [21582] -> "fshg" [1]
18:34:47 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd"> \ <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US"> \ <head> \ <link rel="icon" href="/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/static/hgicon.png" type="image/png" /> \ <meta name="robots" content="index, nofollow" /> \ <link rel="stylesheet" href
18:34:58 <oerjan> i'm now trying to set IE to reload pages on every visit. unfortunately that caused it to nag that the disk usage was too high and i am now waiting for it to resize the cache or something.
18:35:06 <int-e> `` grep changeset fshg
18:35:07 <HackEgo> <li><a href="/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/a144396c7197">changeset</a></li> \ <div id="hint">find changesets by author, revision,
18:36:06 <int-e> oh right, a cached "moved permanently" would do the trick...
18:36:39 * int-e doesn't know the numeric value.
18:36:49 <oerjan> nope. it just reloads the codu.org page itself.
18:38:07 <oerjan> wait, does the browse use flash (ok not likely)
18:38:16 <oerjan> i just disabled it in general
18:38:57 <int-e> Dear Virtualbox, what do you mean by "General failure - DON'T USE THIS!!!"?
18:42:30 <oerjan> darn, there's a list of "allowed sites" for flash but it won't let me edit it to anything other than * or empty
18:43:26 <oerjan> so much for my plan to see if it was responsible for the cpu leak i've been experiencing recently
18:44:43 <oerjan> oh well i'll just put this down to the universe's general dislike of me using computers.
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19:03:12 <\oren\> b_jonas: Oh. Yeah, hold on, I'll fix that
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19:22:35 <b_jonas> \oren\: great, now only the new kanji/hanzi are green
19:22:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:30:07 <b_jonas> \oren\: also, I don't see that problem where the kanji don't line up in a grid anymore. either you fixed it, there was a cache problem, or it differs by which browser or system I'm viewing the page in.
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19:33:19 <int-e> Wow, seriously? That error indicates that virtualbox cannot access any audio device?!
19:34:36 <int-e> (this is not entirely clear, but disabling the soundcard as suggested by https://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=69722 did help me as well)
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19:58:01 <tswett> boily: it's not /kʀwa'zɔ̃/?
19:59:16 <tswett> @tell hppavilion[1] So I guess you'd define a ring syntactically by means of a ring presentation.
20:03:00 <oerjan> it might be undecidable whether two terms are equal, for one thing.
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20:03:49 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean i took a module on hyperbolic groups last term and that was bad enough
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20:16:42 <tswett> And of course, given two presentations, you can't tell whether they present isomorphic rings or not.
20:16:51 <tswett> I guess that's probably semidecidable, right?
20:18:28 <oerjan> yeah if you can guess the formulation of each generator set in the other, and the equality proofs...
20:18:35 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:20:09 <oerjan> s/guess/brute force search/
20:20:25 <\oren\> whats a hyperbolic group
20:20:46 <HackEgo> hyperbolic group? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:21:33 <\oren\> I bet it's a group that exaggerates things
20:21:34 <oerjan> `le/rn hyperbolic group/Hyperbolic groups are the best group there are, they're totally awesome and cure cancer.
20:21:37 <HackEgo> Learned «hyperbolic group»
20:21:53 <oerjan> `le/rn hyperbolic group/Hyperbolic groups are the best groups there are, they're totally awesome and cure cancer.
20:21:55 <HackEgo> Learned «hyperbolic group»
20:22:14 <tswett> @tell hppavilion[1] A ring presentation consists of a bunch of variables and equations of the form "P = 0", where P is a polynomial in those variables. The elements of the ring are all possible polynomials in those variables, with the caveat that two polynomials are equal if and only if you can show that they're equal given the equations.
20:22:26 <tswett> Somebody will now criticize my definition.
20:22:55 <oerjan> it scans horribly tdnh
20:23:49 <tswett> I tried to scan it and my scanner said I was counterfeiting money and automatically called the police!
20:24:09 <shachaf> This presentation thing only works for finite cases, right?
20:24:25 <tswett> For finite cases of what?
20:25:35 <oerjan> tswett: i guess you shouldn't have included the Omron rings in your presentation
20:26:06 <oerjan> shachaf: also _some_ infinite ones hth
20:26:24 <shachaf> oerjan: Yes, but those are just special cases, right?
20:26:38 <oerjan> there's also infinite presentations. so no, it covers everything.
20:26:56 <oerjan> rather trivially, really.
20:27:01 <tswett> Only finitely presented rings have presentations that are finite.
20:27:02 <shachaf> OK, but you have to be more careful for infinite presentations?
20:27:25 <tswett> Every group is "infinitely presented"—just say the generators are its elements and the relations are the true equations.
20:27:39 <oerjan> (just include a generator for every element and an equation for every arithmetic pairing)
20:27:59 <shachaf> "There are infinitary theories (such as that of complete Boolean algebras - see Johnstone [82]) where this is insuperable and presentations simply don't present algebras. For frames, fortunately, presentations do present, but we have to argue slightly carefully to show this. The trick is ..."
20:28:26 <shachaf> I guess that's not relevant to rings.
20:28:41 <oerjan> this generalizes to any variety of universal algebra, i assume.
20:28:50 <\oren\> I always hated doing presentations in school
20:28:54 <oerjan> which may not include every "theory".
20:29:06 <shachaf> Even universal algebra where you have infinite-ary operators?
20:29:26 <oerjan> completeness is probably a topological thing so you cannot include it
20:30:15 <shachaf> What's a good rice to use for that Norwegian rice thing?
20:30:25 <tswett> \oren\: which were your least favorite: individual presentations, group presentations, or ring presentations?
20:30:41 <shachaf> Do you wash the rice or is it better to keep the starch?
20:31:58 <\oren\> think I liked the individual ones the least
20:32:33 <\oren\> I've never done a ring presentation (although I have had a few girlfriends)
20:32:47 <oerjan> shachaf: customary the rice is short and white, i'm not a rice expert.
20:33:43 <oerjan> wait i have this vague memory that we used something exotic once (basmati?) and it was much better.
20:34:39 <lambdabot> shachaf says: roconnor_: The Monomorschism?
20:34:44 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Henning should call all his modules M
20:35:00 <lambdabot> shachaf says: your comment on irc was enlightening. i never thought i would learn so much about this subject! very interesting. it's the sort of comment we see on my favorite irc channel, #enlargeyourmortgage. an excellent read, thanks again!
20:35:47 <lambdabot> shachaf says: i they are so love easy threads
20:35:55 <lambdabot> shachaf says: (\l -> Data.Array.IArray.elems $ runST $ do { arr <- newListArray (0,length l - 1) l :: ST s (STArray s Int Int); (`fix` 0) $ \loop i -> do { v <- readArray arr i; writeArray arr i (v^2); when (i < (length l - 1)) (loop (i+1))}; iarr <- unsafeFreeze arr; return (iarr :: Array Int Int) }) That's the best way to square all the
20:35:55 <lambdabot> elements of a list in Haskell, by far.
20:36:37 <oerjan> shachaf: i saw (very belatedly, i'm > 1 month late on /r/haskell) this discussion of renaming * to Type or something, and i thought "just make it T to annoy thielemann".
20:37:37 <\oren\> I usually use T to mean a string
20:37:50 <\oren\> the other streng besides S
20:38:33 <\oren\> As in, "Let S,T,U be bit strings of lengths L,M,N"
20:38:36 <oerjan> shachaf: what's #enlargeyourmortagelike twh
20:39:41 <\oren\> why isn't mortgage spelled morkage?
20:40:03 <shachaf> \oren\: or look at http://ircbrowse.net/nick/shachaf?recent=false hth
20:40:20 <shachaf> except that's only quotes in #haskell, and it includes some bad ones that were thankfully @forgotten
20:40:20 <tswett> Because when pronunciations change, the spellings often stay the same instead of being updated to reflect the new pronunciations.
20:40:41 <oerjan> \oren\: apparently morgage exists but is obsolete
20:40:46 <pikhq> Because it derives from "mort gage"
20:41:21 <tswett> http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=mortgage - also because of Latinobonerists.
20:41:59 <pikhq> That's not Latin boner people, just the Norman conquest.
20:42:16 <pikhq> Pretty typical example of Law French.
20:42:48 <oerjan> but wiktionary said it was spelled morgage in anglo-norman
20:42:53 <lambdabot> KOAK 031953Z 31007KT 10SM FEW012 21/13 A2960 RMK AO2 SLP023 T02110128
20:43:04 <Phantom_Hoover> 'rtg' doesn't seem like a very latin consonant cluster
20:43:24 <lambdabot> CYYZ 032000Z 08014G28KT 15SM -RA FEW045 OVC058 10/03 A3037 RMK CU1NS7 SLP288
20:43:32 <pikhq> oerjan: Looks as though both spellings coexisted.
20:43:54 <\oren\> we got a cold north wind here
20:44:39 <shachaf> \oren\: http://ircbrowse.net/browse/haskell?q=oren
20:45:42 <\oren\> looks like a different oren
20:46:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought your father was called something starting with s
20:46:51 <\oren\> Aha. so this oren is spelled with a ו
20:47:49 <\oren\> I thought ו was o and u in hebrew?
20:48:24 <shachaf> But the letter representing the o sound is a glottal stop.
20:49:33 <\oren\> uhhh... Ok I have no idea how Hebrew works
20:49:46 <shachaf> do you know how korean works?
20:49:50 <shachaf> i think hangul has the same deal
20:50:12 <\oren\> Hangul works the same as english, but the letters are in blocks instead linear
20:50:45 <\oren\> So how does aleph represent o in some words but a in others?
20:51:32 <shachaf> you know japanese or something like that, right?
20:51:56 <shachaf> how does s represent そ in some words but さ in others?
20:52:05 <shachaf> aleph is just another consonant
20:52:07 <Phantom_Hoover> \oren\, if it helps, words that 'start' with a vowel in english actually start with an implicit glottal stop
20:52:49 <\oren\> Oh, so the vowels aren't marked at all, and aleph represents the fact there is some vowel there but not which one?
20:53:33 <shachaf> they are marked sometimes, but aleph is not the vowel here
20:54:02 <b_jonas> \oren\: see http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-09-10.2318.html where it talks about Hebrew and Arabic
20:55:23 <shachaf> the ו represents a vowel, but the word starts with a glottal stop
20:56:28 <\oren\> I see... Wrods that start with a glottal stop are a new one to me, but theres no reason why that can't happen
20:57:13 <shachaf> They aren't particularly new to you. Every English word that starts with a vowel -- like "aren't" and "every" and "english" and "a" and "and" -- starts with a glottal stop.
20:57:38 <\oren\> What about the e vowel in oren?
20:57:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, I don't think so. not according to that blog entry I just linked to
20:57:55 <shachaf> b_jonas: Unfortunately I don't know much French.
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20:58:17 <\oren\> the start of the oh in uh-oh is different from the start of O in O Canada
20:58:50 <shachaf> They sound the same to me?
20:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think the initial glottal stop is universal in english
20:59:38 <shachaf> Sometimes it gets slurred away, of course.
21:00:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: that article specifically explains that some languages, namely Hebrew, Arabic, possibly Dutch, require a pause before all words that start with a vowel, so Hebrew and Arabic treats such words as starting with a glottal stop consonant, which that article suggests to call a ʔalif.
21:01:14 <b_jonas> shachaf: the writing systems for Hebrew and Arabic are abjads, and they write a ʔalif letter at the start of that word, which is why it's natural to analyze those languages that way.
21:01:42 <\oren\> Oh I see, in english I do do it at the start of a sentence, so for e.g. 'eat an apple' there is something in my throat at the start of 'eat' but not the other two words
21:01:45 <b_jonas> (It is not mentioned in that article, but lojban is also like that.)
21:02:39 <shachaf> \oren\: The "proper" pronunciation of that sentence would include the thing that I think of as a glottal stop for each of those words.
21:02:42 <b_jonas> shachaf: however, the article also tells that this isn't the only thing ʔalif is used for, namely long vowels in Hebrew and Arabic are often represented as a fake consonant sign with a vowel mark,
21:02:56 <b_jonas> and ʔalif is used as such a consonant sign for some vowels.
21:03:27 <b_jonas> And also that the arabic writing system is complicated and it won't try to tell all the rules.
21:03:48 <\oren\> in my spelling it's 'Et N apL'
21:04:03 <shachaf> I don't think the things you're saying match up with my intuitive understanding of things.
21:04:24 <shachaf> And you can have aleph in the middle of words as a glottal stop, no problem.
21:04:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: however, most languages, including English, French, (Hungarian, not mentioned in the article) do have lots of common words that actaully start with a vowel, and they're pronounced (usually) without a stop or pause before them,
21:05:04 <b_jonas> so I think there's no point saying that English words that start with a vowel have a glottal stop before them, because nobody pronounces them that way.
21:05:14 <\oren\> there's no stop in english, we slur all our words together and that is perfectly ok
21:05:32 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, it _can_ mean a glottal stop in the middle of a word, because it does work like a real consonant.
21:06:12 <b_jonas> shachaf: but the letter can also represent a long vowel, and this isn't even specific for aleph, because there are a couple of other consonant signs that are sometimes used to mark a long vowel, and sometimes a consonant, in Hebrew and Arabic.
21:06:27 <shachaf> I think people slur glottal stops at the beginnings of words into the previous word about as much in Hebrew and in English.
21:06:45 <shachaf> I would say that "eat", "an", and "apple" all start with the same sound, standing on their own.
21:07:03 <b_jonas> shachaf: does that apply to Arabic too?
21:07:09 <b_jonas> as opposed to Hebrew that is
21:07:17 <\oren\> hmm, well in english it isn't analyzed normally as having a glottal stop at the start
21:07:24 <shachaf> If you say them quickly one after the other, sure, there might be a spot of slurring. But that's a result of how you combine words, not the words in themselves.
21:09:00 <b_jonas> let me re-read the article, maybe it says this only about Dutch (sometimes) and Arabic
21:09:43 <\oren\> for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Consonant_examples doesn't include glottal stop as one of the consonantal inventory of english
21:09:45 <shachaf> Speaking a sentence made up of individual words is a complicated process. Just saying each word in the sentence separately sounds very unnatural.
21:10:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, sorry, it doesn't specifically seem to say this about Hebrew, only about Arabic
21:10:26 <shachaf> b_jonas: aleph is *also* used in hebrew as a pseudo-vowel in some cases
21:11:13 <shachaf> \oren\: You must admit that the two 'i's in the IPA for "english" are pronounced very differently.
21:11:14 <b_jonas> in fact, it says very little about Hebrew
21:12:02 <b_jonas> it also doesn't seem to specifically say that aleph is used to write a long vowel in Hebrew
21:13:06 <b_jonas> “il faut préciser que l'arabe utiliser des consonnes pour marquer l'allongement des voyelles : la voyelle longue ‘ī’ est notée ‘{i}y’, la voyelle longue ‘ū’ est notée ‘{u}w’, et la voyelle longue ‘ā’ est notée par un ‘{a}’ suivi d'un ʔalif, justement ; dans tous les cas, j'écris la voyelle entre accolades parce que les voyelles ne sont normalement pas écrites en arabe, donc seule reste visible la consonne d'allongement
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21:13:20 <b_jonas> I think that's more or less true for Hebrew as well, but that article doesn't say
21:13:42 <\oren\> shachaf: sounds like inglish to me, with two of the same i?
21:14:09 <shachaf> I think this is a different mental model of how vowels work.
21:14:36 <shachaf> By the way, glottal stops in the middles of words are also often slurred away in colloquial Hebrew.
21:14:58 <shachaf> This would be much easier in a spoken conversation, because I could hear what you're saying and demonstrate what I mean.
21:15:31 <b_jonas> shachaf: sorry about the confusion
21:16:08 <\oren\> Hmm.. maybe I can demonstrate
21:16:31 <\oren\> does windows still come with wave sound recorder
21:16:37 <b_jonas> shachaf: isn't Old English the language that's (also sometimes) analyzed with a glottal stop at the beginning of (most) words starting with a vowel?
21:17:38 <b_jonas> you could try to ask on ##linguistics, but that channel is very rarely on-topic
21:18:06 <shachaf> I've had bad experiences with linguists before.
21:18:24 <b_jonas> or you could try http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/
21:18:55 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: :(
21:19:05 <shachaf> I've experienced half of that...
21:19:31 <augur> shachaf doesnt like me because i dont like him because he was a dick to me. its a funny world we live in
21:20:00 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: there are lots of nice linguists on the internet.
21:20:21 <b_jonas> especially if you count amateurs like David Madore (whose article I linked)
21:20:24 <augur> b_jonas: i dont think Old English has that, but Modern English does
21:20:39 <shachaf> Good time to end the discussion.
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21:20:46 <augur> glottal stops before vowels at the beginning of words
21:21:09 <augur> there now, you see? shachaf has been doing this for ages :|
21:21:10 <oerjan> http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/2585/rules-for-glottal-stop-insertion-across-languages hth
21:21:19 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: find what out?
21:21:56 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: you read the freaking blog post I linked to, which specifically talks about English?
21:22:00 <\oren\> heres a recording of me reading out some of the previous text formt his channed
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21:22:03 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/demonstrate.wma
21:22:18 <b_jonas> I mean, how else do you find out things these days, other than looking them up on the internet or asking in irc
21:22:41 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, i did make it clear that i don't speak french, right
21:22:46 <augur> oh. well you can try reconstructions of the phonology and stuff
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21:25:16 <shachaf> <augur> shachaf: i delight in knowing that i can grind your gears just by answering your questions.
21:25:22 <shachaf> this is hardly a new thing
21:25:31 <augur> shachaf: i know its not new
21:25:42 <augur> we've been at this for years
21:25:46 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/demonstrate.wma <- heres a recording of what my dialect sounds like in case you missed it
21:26:16 <augur> even tho we've barely interacted in, say, the last 5 years
21:26:40 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: its hard to be dicks to one another when we dont interact :)
21:26:47 <zzo38> Is .wma the only format you have? Can't you have FLAC format?
21:26:48 <shachaf> \oren\: I think we've talked about the ch in my name before.
21:27:16 <b_jonas> I wanted to say something about esoteric stuff
21:27:28 <\oren\> zzo38: I'll do the next one as mp3 or something
21:27:47 <\oren\> wma was the default when I saed it
21:28:03 <zzo38> You shouldn't use MP3 either, use FLAC
21:28:32 <zzo38> Yes it is compressed, but it is lossless
21:28:47 <augur> the c stands for compression :)
21:28:52 <augur> Free Lossless Audio Compression
21:29:21 <zzo38> (If you want lossy compression you can use Vorbis, which is still better quality than MP3; but FLAC is better quality because it is lossless.)
21:29:43 <\oren\> anyway AFAIK I don't use glottal stops
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21:29:53 <augur> if you want audio on the internet, you're best with MP3 of course, since its widely implemented, compared to FLAC and vorbis
21:31:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you care about esoteric C++?
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21:33:33 <zzo38> I don't care much about C++, but you can do it anyways if you want to
21:34:05 <b_jonas> oh... for some reason I thought you did at least non-esoteric C++
21:34:23 <shachaf> As I said, there's a lot that changes when you speak a sentence compared to the individual words.
21:35:58 <augur> \oren\: are you a native speaker of English? if so, which dialect?
21:36:56 <\oren\> Canadian English, I guess the toronto regional accent
21:37:17 <augur> then you definitely have glottal stops :)
21:37:42 <augur> in every word that begins with a vowel!
21:37:51 <augur> and only when the vowel is initial
21:38:14 <augur> but glottal stops are hard for native speakers to hear, because its phonologically not there
21:38:29 <augur> it only gets inserted in certain conditions
21:39:12 <augur> its fairly well known about native english speakers that they cant hear their glottal stops, tho. singing teachers struggle with this all the time
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21:42:33 <augur> \oren\: i can hear lots of glottal stops in your audio file :)
21:43:16 <augur> i know, its hard to hear them. i bet you cant hear the two different p's either!
21:44:35 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: you mean you cant hear the aspiration? me neither usually. its very hard to hear for me
21:44:43 <augur> i have to really focus
21:45:09 <shachaf> Linguistics is 1% aspiration and 99% perspiration.
21:45:40 <\oren\> Ok i've recorded anothewr one, this time a passage from a calculus textbook
21:46:48 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/calculus.wma
21:47:24 <\oren\> onus points if you can figure out which calculus textbook this is
21:47:28 <augur> \oren\: glottal stops everywhere!
21:48:33 <\oren\> agh where I don't hear any
21:48:39 <augur> i know you dont :) its ok
21:48:47 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, oh also while we're here, i noticed a while back that i say 'tl' (as in bottle or glottal) with a lateral plosive or something
21:48:53 <augur> of course the only true test would be to get some nice, clean, high-quality audio and put it through a spectrogram and show you
21:48:56 <b_jonas> what did Bubbles do with his lips?
21:49:11 <Phantom_Hoover> but i couldn't find any reference to this being 'a thing' and it's nagged at me since
21:50:01 <augur> someone on Language Log once mentioned a situation where one of their chinese students was in utter disbelief that she was deleting certain consonants or whatever in her speech
21:50:33 <augur> so they put it through a spectrogram and looked and even upon seeing the spectro, the student insisted that it had been tampered with because she could HEAR the damn things!
21:51:27 <augur> except there really was nothing to hear, its just that the processing is so tight that it creates the subjective experience of things that arent in the signal
21:52:13 <\oren\> I see. interesting that its possible to say a sound without hearing it and hear a sound without saying it
21:52:24 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: lateral releases are pretty common, yeah
21:53:19 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: its still a t or d, but the release isnt alveolar its lateral, so the standard notation is a superscript l
21:53:25 <boily> hellaugur! long time no see!
21:53:51 <augur> [bɑtˡl] or [bɑdˡl]
21:53:58 <augur> boily: hi hello do i know you?
21:54:32 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: lol
21:54:33 <augur> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_release_(phonetics) :P
21:55:16 <augur> it could be but i would bet against it
21:55:23 <augur> but who knows, theres lots of english dialects :)
21:55:46 <augur> some dialects say "buses" homophonously with bosses using ɔ so who knows!
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21:58:13 <boily> augur: you always are there in the list. I think I saw you talk on this channel, but it goes so far back that it may be many years ago.
21:59:46 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: sounds like it could indeed be ɔ!
22:00:19 <augur> its somewhere between ɑ and ɔ and ɒ
22:00:22 <augur> its in that region
22:00:27 <\oren\> shit I'm not a linguist
22:00:29 <augur> im guessing tho that you're british
22:00:48 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: im guessing that you voted #Yes
22:01:15 <augur> boily: well, im here now :) hello!
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22:03:04 <augur> canadian english and dakotan-alaska english do that too
22:03:20 <augur> also Phantom_Hoover you dont sound glaswegian
22:03:39 <augur> so my bet would be edinburgh, just on population?
22:04:44 <Phantom_Hoover> but i also tried doing RP for a few years then decided i didn't like it so it sounds weird to people from edinburgh
22:04:44 <\oren\> how the hell, I can't even
22:05:06 <augur> how is im a linguist and also i watch a LOT of british TV
22:05:31 <augur> especially the panel quiz comedy shows, so i get lots of exposure to different dialects
22:05:45 <augur> i cant pin down many of the british dialects, but i can get some major ones
22:05:52 <boily> `le/rn augur/augur took no cakes, but he's a linguist.
22:06:10 <Phantom_Hoover> is there anyone from edinburgh on the panel show circuit
22:06:40 <augur> i dont know. edinburgh isnt nearly as lulzy as glasgow so probably not
22:06:54 <augur> yeah, it was a probabilistic deduction
22:07:54 <augur> man google gives _nothing_ for comedians from edinburgh
22:08:57 <augur> "Edinburgh 2015: the best new comedians heading to the Fringe" includes Stewart Francis who's fucking canadian lmfao
22:09:21 <augur> i guess that sums up Edinburgh: their best new comedians are from canada lolol
22:09:28 <Phantom_Hoover> well yeah, the fringe is one of the biggest comedy festivals in the world
22:10:22 <augur> searching for comedians from glasgow, on the other hand, has plenty of results. lol
22:10:41 <augur> thats what you get for pronouncing it edinbruh
22:11:43 <augur> or maybe edinbuhruh
22:11:48 <augur> but definitely no g
22:11:59 <\oren\> so the e, the g, and the h are all dilent
22:12:38 <augur> the e isnt silent!
22:12:56 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: its the only one people say on a regular basis tho :P
22:13:38 <Phantom_Hoover> probably. but basically the only actual curveball is that the gh is pronounced 'uh'
22:13:57 <\oren\> https://clyp.it/gs14rz5x
22:15:00 <\oren\> this is what happen when I only ever see a word written
22:16:04 <augur> bruh, like douches saying bro but with uh instead
22:16:50 <augur> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxM7ENmEh1U
22:17:14 <augur> e-d-i-n-b-ore-u-haytch :)
22:18:49 <augur> ahhh irish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI1UaHt1zRU
22:19:22 <\oren\> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
22:19:36 <Phantom_Hoover> but the vowels are there solely to fuck with your head
22:20:07 <\oren\> the whole british isles are trolling me
22:20:14 <augur> there was a LL post from ages ago about irish spelling :)
22:20:32 <Phantom_Hoover> \oren\, oh man you'll love this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOd3lwluQIw
22:20:49 <Phantom_Hoover> (and this is mostly english names, which are fairly tame)
22:21:18 <augur> is featherstonehough in there somewhere?
22:23:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean they're not crazy like siobhan, they're just heavily elided
22:30:33 <HackEgo> U+0020 SPACE \ UTF-8: 20 UTF-16BE: 0020 Decimal:   \ \ Category: Zs (Separator, Space) \ Bidi: WS (Whitespace) \ \ U+025B LATIN SMALL LETTER OPEN E \ UTF-8: c9 9b UTF-16BE: 025b Decimal: ɛ \ ɛ (Ɛ) \ Uppercase: U+0190 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0303 COMBINING TILDE \ UTF-8: cc 83 UTF-16BE:
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22:33:40 <\oren\> also I hope the ow in glasgow is the same as in cow
22:34:47 <\oren\> then why the fuck is there a w
22:35:57 <augur> \oren\: wait till you learn that some scottish people pronounce "cow" as coo :)
22:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> and that the vernacular spelling of glasgow is 'glesgae'
22:37:11 <augur> vernacular, or scots?
22:37:14 <\oren\> fucking british people ruining the english language for everyone
22:37:58 <boily> \oren\: abandon English, go French :D
22:38:22 <augur> scots is a different language sister to english, whereas vernacular is just everyday scottish english
22:39:48 <\oren\> je ne parl fransais pa untilthey unfuck their spelling
22:40:07 <augur> there's certainly a gradient, of course, but scots is a real distinct language
22:40:16 <augur> recognition of its status as a language is actually kind of important
22:40:42 <Phantom_Hoover> my understanding of the history is that scots developed in parallel and along a continuum with english
22:40:57 <boily> \oren\: maim, mangle and mutilate. that's the first step to writing proper French and speaking it.
22:41:10 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: yeah, there's no clear line, you must understand
22:41:24 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: its a dialect continuum. the same is true of romance languages
22:41:37 <Phantom_Hoover> and the recognition of status is massively political, you need only look at ulster scots to see that
22:41:52 <augur> we talk about French and Spanish and Italian and so on, but its a continuum, there's no line between the them
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22:41:54 <\oren\> luckily the japanese unfucked their spelling in the 1950's
22:41:56 <augur> same for Dutch and German
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22:42:27 <augur> languages are like species
22:42:41 <augur> you get all sorts of fun things in species
22:42:43 <Phantom_Hoover> which is why i think it's silly to draw a line between 'everyday scottish english' and 'scots'
22:42:49 <augur> ring species are quite interesting
22:43:02 <augur> well when i say everyday scottish english i mean english, but with a scottish accent
22:43:12 <augur> not the scottish with "ken" and stuff
22:44:16 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but this started over the term 'vernacular', which i always understood to refer to the latter
22:44:53 <augur> it might, in this context, i dont know. i mean, vernacular isnt a name, tho its sometimes incorporated into names
22:45:35 <Phantom_Hoover> (incidentally if you want to just hear glaswegians saying shit, i recommend burnistoun)
22:45:41 <\oren\> boily: see they used to spell 「きょう」 as 「けふ」
22:46:22 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: burnistoun?
22:47:05 <boily> \oren\: indeed. more compact, none of those pesky small kana.
22:47:10 <augur> for all my glaswegian needs, i just watch kevin bridges and frankie boyle :)
22:48:53 <Phantom_Hoover> burnistoun is glaswegians portraying their natural habitat
22:49:28 <augur> i saw an episode of one of those trash shows with a guy bringing people out to sit in chairs and hes well known as a dick
22:49:44 <augur> and they had some scottish people on, some glaswegians speaking very thick glaswegian english
22:49:47 <augur> omg it was nuts :D
22:50:51 <augur> jeremy kyle, i think is that guy?
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22:53:24 <\oren\> I'm guessing english spelling reform won't catch on until the dialects start to become unintelligible
22:53:40 <augur> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le_uNGdpa4c
23:00:48 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, yeah, burnistoun is like... halfway to that, throughout
23:01:54 <Phantom_Hoover> bridges and boyle are pitching to the entire uk, burnistoun was some regional bbc scotland thing so they didn't give a fuck who could understand it
23:03:09 <augur> when they play in glasgow tho they hit the accent really hard
23:03:15 <zzo38> Tell the queen to tell the prime minister to cancel the EU.
23:03:26 <augur> its fun to compare when boyle is on Mock vs when he's playing a room in glasgow
23:03:38 <augur> especially like during that small little indyref show he did
23:04:29 <augur> i love their comedy omg
23:04:36 <augur> boyle and bridges are some of the best comedians ever
23:04:40 <\oren\> cancel the EU? like a show
23:04:56 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: omg i know lmfao
23:05:19 <augur> that was a truly amazing moment
23:06:33 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:06:47 <augur> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkpyd2lr4dI
23:07:00 <augur> in case anyone is wondering WTF Phantom_Hoover and i are talking about with horses :)
23:07:45 <Phantom_Hoover> though you need to understand the format: the story might be a lie, and he wins if he gets the other team to call it wrong
23:10:04 <augur> man i havent watched wilty in a while
23:10:10 <augur> i should watch the new series
23:10:52 <augur> thank god for youtube, otherwise i'd never get to see all these great shows
23:13:05 <b_jonas> |I mean, which ones have you already watched?
23:14:04 <augur> b_jonas: Nevermind The Buzzcocks, Mock the Week, Would I Lie to You, and 8 out of 10 Cats
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23:46:43 <boily> \oren\: nice porthello. mind if I steal it?
23:52:25 <augur> also Phantom_Hoover, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cENbkHS3mnY