00:00:45 <fizzie> fungot: Do you know anything about univalence?
00:00:45 <fungot> fizzie: ' yeah, but---' he
00:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> sounds like he won't talk for fear of shadowy reprisals
00:11:05 <fizzie> fungot: You're among friends here, you can say whatever you like.
00:11:05 <fungot> fizzie: s/ this parts/ these fnord?
00:11:16 <fizzie> fungot: Be that way then.
00:11:17 <fungot> fizzie: to do the intuitive notions of " what something is" is.
00:13:45 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: you wouldn't force ml upon that group of programmers with ocaml, and cl
00:15:39 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: so you can understand a price premium
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00:35:33 <tswett> quarterlier quarterlion
00:36:29 <tswett> "Would you like us to put this quarterpanther in your quarters?" "No, I prefer something much quarterlier. Please give me a quarterlion."
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00:58:20 <tswett> horsefatherist's horsefurtatles's
00:59:55 <tswett> "Oh yeah, those were my father's uncle's father's father's grandfather's horse's father's great-grandfather's father's father's horsefatherist's horsefurtatles's coarse potatoes."
01:00:25 <tswett> epycriptic egripcritic
01:00:38 <tswett> Man, it really should have misremembered it as "epicryptic"!
01:04:44 <tswett> suburbanced suburbandad
01:13:57 <tswett> butterfuckers butterfuckens
01:14:11 <tswett> `loudly butterfuckers!
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01:48:38 * ais523 is amused at Wikipedia containing a transliteration of Notepad's incorrect decoding of "bush hid the facts"
01:48:56 <ais523> it makes it look almost as if the replacement text is meaningful
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02:29:09 <hppavilion[1]> This is my favorite irc channel discovery since finding out about this one
02:38:15 <zzo38> The program xdvi is using only the first page number register of each page; how to make it to use the other page number registers too?
02:43:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44697&oldid=44686 * Hppavilion1 * (+108) Removed the LOLSPEAK that some troll filled this article with
02:44:39 <hppavilion[1]> (the joke was too good not to make. Don't worry, I didn't /actually/ vandalize the article, I just added some history so the edit would take)
02:46:22 <zzo38> Which article did you not valdalize?
02:49:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44698&oldid=43792 * Oerjan * (-4) some proofreading
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02:50:08 <zzo38> The "Appendix D: Dirty Tricks" of the TeXbook is not dirty and tricky enough.
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02:55:59 * oerjan was briefly worried that an anonymous IP changed most of the spec of Hyperfunge
02:56:12 <oerjan> but it turns out to be the same ip that created it
03:06:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyperfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44699&oldid=43751 * Oerjan * (+627) Some proofreading, table
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03:10:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44700&oldid=43919 * Oerjan * (+0) section case
03:10:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[???]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44701&oldid=44700 * Oerjan * (+0) Um, and that one.
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03:28:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44702&oldid=43942 * Oerjan * (+63) Some proofreading
03:36:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Niblet]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44703&oldid=43886 * Oerjan * (+57) Some proofreading
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03:40:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Snowman]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44704&oldid=43827 * Oerjan * (+5) link, case
03:44:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44705&oldid=44536 * Oerjan * (+23) Some proofreading
03:50:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LindenMASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44706&oldid=43830 * Oerjan * (+31) Some proofreading
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03:52:53 <zzo38> Another kind of card: "~ can block as though any number of objects had no abilities."
03:53:23 <ais523> zzo38: trying to make a creature that can block anything?
03:54:04 <ais523> although I'm not sure it works, imagine someone had cast a sorcery "creatures can't block this turn" earlier in the turn
03:54:26 <ais523> by the time you have to choose blockers, that's an effect, not an ability
03:55:31 <zzo38> Yes, it won't do that, but it is still something
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03:56:12 <ais523> zzo38: have you seen the card Flash Foliage? it uses a different technique to block anything (unless it has hexproof or a similar ability)
03:57:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Sclipting]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44707&oldid=43836 * Oerjan * (+54) unsigned
03:57:07 <zzo38> Now I have, but that is a different kind of thing. Still there is that similarity.
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04:04:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Pada]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44708&oldid=40541 * Oerjan * (+450) Putting deleted thoughts here
04:06:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pada]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44709&oldid=43847 * Oerjan * (+1) /* Examples */ link
04:18:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pb]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44710&oldid=43854 * Oerjan * (+0) grm
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04:34:54 <hppavilion[1]> We should create an in-depth article on Mapoles on the wiki
04:35:26 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe we should create an Esolang:Lore page and put all the stupid history as a subpage of that?
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04:48:58 <zzo38> Does it need a new namespace?
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05:03:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44711&oldid=44227 * Oerjan * (+2) link
05:13:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44712&oldid=43907 * Oerjan * (+10) bold, link and uncensor
05:18:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NSFW]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44713&oldid=43908 * Oerjan * (-33) wikify
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05:55:10 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I meant potentially under the main namespace, but then people might think "Lore" is the name of an esolang, or someday want to make an Esolang /named/ "Lore"
05:55:51 <hppavilion[1]> It's amazing in mathematics that you can find something akin to the Prime Factorization of a number for fucking /polynomials/
06:04:07 <\oren\> well i think there's a theorem or something that any system that has multiplication and division that behave in certain ways will have a prime-like thing
06:11:22 <\oren\> hmmm well not all rings have primes... and not all fields either. I'm not sure what the conditions that cause primes to exist are
06:13:19 <myname> i'd guess infinitely many objects and an order?
06:20:05 <myname> maybe you need countably infinitely many objects
06:23:11 <myname> or you need a smallest object
06:23:21 <myname> du hyperreals have primes?
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06:26:32 <myname> well, i guess the real numbers in hyperreals don't have an order there are away from epsilon
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08:12:14 <Taneb> Ugh, Girl Genius is down
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08:18:00 <ais523> `` quote 107 # <-- http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/13/business/media/nudes-are-old-news-at-playboy.html?_r=0
08:18:01 <HackEgo> 107) <ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it
08:18:18 <ais523> apparently playboy agree with me, they've decided to remove the porn and just keep the articles
08:18:58 <ais523> I was not predicting that at the time I made the quote…
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08:29:08 * mroman is writing a CPU simulator in plain assembler
08:29:43 <mroman> completely. from scratch.
08:30:09 <mroman> (which means I gotta implement my own versions of some libc functions)
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08:31:40 <mroman> but does anyone have any idea how I can embed debug symbols with nasm?
08:32:00 <mroman> nasm -g -f elf -Fstabs main.asm
08:32:02 <mroman> doesn't seem to really work
08:33:16 <mroman> or do I need to declare these functions as global
08:35:04 <fizzie> It should work; I've had it work.
08:35:13 <fizzie> Although possibly as -Fdwarf.
08:36:19 <mroman> linker stripped symbols :D
08:36:36 <mroman> does the usual stack frame thing expect that esp does not change?
08:36:56 <mroman> it seems like if you do any push then the back trace get's mangled
08:37:22 <mroman> http://codepad.org/m95R4ri8
08:37:27 <mroman> those in ?? are actually arguments
08:37:52 <fizzie> Could be. Normally you'd need the annotations, and NASM couldn't really generate those automatically.
08:39:21 <mroman> my esp changes when I save registers to the stack
08:40:11 <mroman> but I mean that's the way it should be anyway
08:40:24 <mroman> push ebp; mov ebp, esp; add esp, SIZEOF(locals);
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08:41:43 <mroman> eip = 0x804808a in str_len_loop; saved eip 0x1
08:42:48 <fizzie> If gdb thinks you've got debugging information, it might ignore ebp, since -fomit-frame-pointer is so common. Who knows.
08:43:36 <fizzie> I don't see any way of manually doing the CFI annotations in NASM, though.
08:44:59 <mroman> I'd thought gdb looks at the value of ebp
08:45:15 <mroman> 0xbffff504:0xbffff5200x080480ac0x080490d40x00000000
08:45:20 <mroman> because ebp is correct
08:45:29 <mroman> ...520 is the saved ebp
08:45:36 <mroman> 80480ac is the return address
08:45:46 <fizzie> Yes, but how would it know it's correct, except with some random sanity-check heuristics?
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08:46:49 <mroman> but if it's not looking at ebp at what is it looking?
08:47:41 <mroman> oh it's looking at ESP
08:47:46 <mroman> but it assumes that no ebp on the stack is present
08:47:46 <fizzie> ESP + the DWARF CFI ("call frame information") data, which you won't have.
08:48:09 <mroman> 0xbffff4fc:0x000000010x080490d40xbffff5200x080480ac
08:48:20 <mroman> it's looking directly at esp and thinks 0x1 is the saved eip
08:48:33 <mroman> which is wrong because that's an argument that has been pushed to the stack
08:48:52 <mroman> or a local, or a saved register depending on the exact circumstances
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08:52:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: it has debug informations for most of your functions, so it knows which function stores its local variables (including next stack frame) where
08:53:08 <fizzie> b_jonas: It doesn't have debug informations if you don't give it any debug informations.
08:53:24 <b_jonas> you should compile the program with debug information, preferably with -Og -ggdb
08:53:38 <b_jonas> and libraries with debug information too
08:53:39 <fizzie> You should read the scrollback buffer.
08:53:58 <b_jonas> oh, this is the other channel
08:53:59 <fizzie> It's a handwritten piece of NASM, and there seems to be no way to annotate NASM source with DWARF CFI annotations to generate the stack frame layout information.
08:54:09 <fizzie> And it's not my problem. :)
08:56:56 <fizzie> mroman: By the way, "add esp, SIZEOF(locals)" looks very wrong, unless your SIZEOF is negative.
08:58:17 <mroman> but that was just to emphasize on that even in gcc generated Code esp changes
08:58:32 <fizzie> Yes, which is why GCC puts in the necessary debugging information.
08:58:32 <mroman> (but yes, it's doing a sub to allocate and add to clean up)
08:58:47 <mroman> so I assumed that backtraces work by relying on the ebp value
08:58:52 <mroman> because ebp usually doesn't change
08:59:07 <fizzie> ebp quite commonly doesn't have anything to do with the stack.
08:59:12 <mroman> (after the push ebp; mov ebp, esp; epilogue)
08:59:23 <fizzie> GCC enables -fomit-frame-pointer by default on -O2 and higher for x86, IIRC.
08:59:34 <mroman> fizzie: it enables it with optimizations yes
08:59:37 <int-e> using ebp as the frame pointer should be quite common on x86
08:59:54 <fizzie> Well: using it, and not using it, should both be relatively common.
09:00:06 <int-e> well... used to be, because indeed -fomit-frame-pointer has become quite standard.
09:00:21 <mroman> Can I manipulate registers in gdb?
09:00:28 <b_jonas> oh, and as usual, for these kinds of things, getting BOTH a non-ancient compiler and a non-ancient debugger helps a great deal
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09:00:52 <b_jonas> mroman: you may need to put "p " or "set variable " at the start of the gdb command for that
09:01:02 <b_jonas> of course it might break the program
09:01:07 <mroman> http://codepad.org/gqht55jS
09:01:19 <mroman> bff..520 is the saved ebp on the stack
09:01:23 <b_jonas> also, don't you mean $rsp and $rbp ?
09:01:30 <b_jonas> oh, you're debuggin x86_32
09:01:49 <fizzie> mroman: I assume it's not assuming a saved ebp, if it's not looking for a frame pointer.
09:01:56 <fizzie> You could try skipping it.
09:02:07 <mroman> well then I gotta do manual backtraces I guess
09:02:31 <mroman> unless I can configure gdb somehow to trust my ebp
09:03:36 <fizzie> If you've only got that one level of your own non-debug-info'ed functions, you could set $esp = $ebp+4 before backtracing.
09:03:40 <b_jonas> mroman: you could try to learn dwarf and write debugging information manually into your assembly code, but that's probably a pain
09:03:57 <fizzie> You could use GAS and write the .cfi_... directives.
09:04:45 <fizzie> #gdb might be able to help you switch it to trusting the frame pointer for backtraces; I couldn't find an obvious way.
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09:05:18 <b_jonas> fizzie: or rather, to avoid rewriting, you could use some other assembler that can take nasm syntax but also other stuff and extensions, such as http://yasm.tortall.net/
09:05:26 <b_jonas> then you don't hvae to change everything to gas syntax
09:07:02 <mroman> fizzie: If i'd have only one level, yes :)
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09:08:26 <fizzie> b_jonas: I looked at the Yasm manual, and "Chapter 19. dwarf2: DWARF2 Debugging Format" is completely empty, which didn't fill me with confidence.
09:09:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm. yeah, while that might still mean they support the same syntax as some other assembler, but didn't care to document it, it isn't inspring much confidence.
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09:14:44 <mroman> well I could try -Fdwarf
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09:17:22 <mroman> but -Fdwarf seems to include some source information
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09:23:00 <fizzie> It's not the lack of symbol table (presumably), it's the lack of CFI.
09:23:23 <fizzie> And you can't expect a lowly assembler to generate that kind of thing for you.
09:29:52 <mroman> but assembler is god :(
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09:31:30 <mroman> It's the lack of gdb's trust for ebp
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09:42:44 <mroman> gdb can't even do proper function stepping
09:42:53 <mroman> gdb really lacks some neat features
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09:57:08 <mroman> also some better docs about linux syscalls would be nice
09:57:58 <mroman> http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/open.2.html <- I mean wtf is this
09:58:18 <mroman> that's not a syscall documentation, that's a C api documentation
10:01:25 <mroman> now I gotta grep the linux source code for the necessary values
10:04:08 <mroman> rdonly apparentely is 0
10:05:06 <b_jonas> mroman: yes, O_RDONLY is 0, O_WRONLY is 1, O_RDWR is 2, everywhere except on hurd which just wants to be different
10:05:49 <b_jonas> mroman: the constants are defined in /usr/include/bits/fcntl.h usually
10:06:04 <mroman> why didn't they just properly document the syscall interface somewhere?
10:06:10 <mroman> with all flags and values etc.
10:06:45 <b_jonas> mroman: go and submit patches if you want.
10:07:09 <izabera> do you guys know how to force a certain order for my man pages?
10:07:21 <b_jonas> izabera: by changing the manpath? try man man
10:08:05 <b_jonas> mroman: patches to man-pages. see instructions at https://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/contributing.html
10:08:14 <mroman> those man-pages document the C interface
10:08:33 <b_jonas> mroman: yes, and some of them do mention the values of the constants, so you can add them to other pages in a similar format
10:08:40 <mroman> (although it would also be neat to have it show the values of the constants for the C interface as well)
10:08:50 <b_jonas> mroman: see http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/chmod.2.html for example, which mentions the values of the constants
10:09:42 <b_jonas> so you can add them in a similar format to other pages
10:09:43 <mroman> I guess I can ignore the mode_t if I'm not using O_CREAT
10:10:38 <b_jonas> Luckily, most of the syscalls have a C api that corresponds straightforwardly to the underlying syscall. The multiplexer system call called "socketcall" which groups like twelve different syscalls for some reason is an exception.
10:12:46 <b_jonas> mroman: I for one would rather prefer to pretend that there's _always_ a mode_t argument, it's just sometimes ignored. It's optional in the c api only for compatibility with REALLY ancient unix, which didn't have O_CREAT.
10:13:59 <mroman> open should return a fd in eax right?
10:14:34 <b_jonas> mroman: hmm wait, let me get my link for that old document that documents the unix abi
10:14:40 <mroman> is -4 somehow a special fd?
10:14:43 <b_jonas> mroman: what os and arch exactly?
10:15:53 <b_jonas> mroman: most syscalls on unix return either a normal value (often 0) or a negated errno, and glibc interprets that and puts it to errno
10:16:06 <b_jonas> the kernel can't put a value in errno, because that's a libc-only construct, and per-thread and stuff
10:16:57 <mroman> interrupted function call
10:17:06 <b_jonas> mroman: can you tell what os and arch you are on? I'll give you links
10:17:38 <b_jonas> I mean, what os and arch that particular program was compiled for
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10:18:51 <mroman> -E2 is hopefully EEXISTS?
10:19:34 <mroman> no such file or directory
10:19:50 <b_jonas> http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/errno but note that while the low numbered ones are generally the same everywhere, the hgih numbered ones are dependent on the os and possibly also the cpu
10:20:14 <b_jonas> http://refspecs.linuxbase.org/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executable_and_Linkable_Format have some useful links about the C abi used by unix,
10:20:47 <b_jonas> including how C types and structures are represented, function call conventions, libc functions and types, and system calls
10:20:57 <mroman> let me just touch the file
10:21:17 <mroman> why would the depend on the CPU?
10:21:31 <mroman> I mean.. those errnos are define
10:21:34 <mroman> If I compile a C program
10:21:45 <mroman> it'd be pretty bad if the errno's werent the same on somebody elses machine
10:21:53 <b_jonas> mroman: no, when I said cpu, I mean the cpu architecture
10:22:02 <mroman> that looks like a valid fd
10:22:15 <b_jonas> when you compile the program for one cpu architecture, it won't run on another cpu architecture (x86_32 vs x86_64 vs everything else)
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10:22:42 <b_jonas> if the program even starts, the numbers won't change
10:23:36 <b_jonas> Some of the abi is effectively defined only by the existing tools, not written down, but those documents I mentioned should give a good starting point about this.
10:25:02 <b_jonas> And of course note that all of that ABI stuff applies to only the functions and structures exported from separately compiled translation units, or on the boundary of the kernel and the program. Within a single compilation unit, the C compiler is allowed to optimize a lot and that can involve representing data or function calls differently.
10:25:36 <b_jonas> Which is why you need all that complicated debugging information for the debugger, and often have to remove some optimizations with -Og, to be able to inspect everything with the debugger.
10:26:31 <b_jonas> mroman: you still haven't told me what os and cpu you are on though
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10:28:30 <mroman> Linux clt-mob-t-6246 3.2.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.2.68-1+deb7u1 i686 GNU/Linux
10:29:09 <b_jonas> mroman: uname might not always help though, it tells about the kernel, not the particular program :-)
10:29:30 <b_jonas> so on a freebsd x86_64 machine I can run a program compiled for linux x86_32
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10:29:49 <mroman> I'm going to write a CPU simulator in bare bones assembly
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11:10:29 <Taneb> Thing I made: (vertical scale is a bit off): http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/mandelbrot.png
11:17:20 <Taneb> The program that made that ran in 87 minutes on two cores
11:18:08 <mroman> well my io_read_block seems to read a bunch of 0x00
11:18:11 <mroman> instead of actual data :(
11:18:33 <mroman> which means it read three bytes
11:18:41 <mroman> WHERE ARE MY 3 BYTES :(
11:21:02 <mroman> programmin in assembler is so fun
11:22:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44714 * SuperJedi224 * (+349) Created page with "{{Stub}} Designed by SuperJedi224, '''BotEngine''' is an upcoming 2D programming language inspired by the game [[Manufactoria]]. Execution consists of one or more "bots", eac..."
11:22:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44715&oldid=44714 * SuperJedi224 * (+38)
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11:28:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44716&oldid=44715 * SuperJedi224 * (+483)
11:29:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44717&oldid=44716 * SuperJedi224 * (+47) /* Instructions */
11:29:36 <b_jonas> on anagol, is there a way to tell when a problem was submitted, for an active problem?
11:29:52 <b_jonas> the homepage tells for how long it's active
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13:05:15 <Taneb> Is it possible to do logarithms in dc
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13:22:00 <int-e> I'd answer, but then the next question would be "how?"...
13:23:04 <int-e> (it's not built in, but dc is Turing complete so it's just an exercise for the interested programmer to write code that approximates logarithms to an desired precision)
13:29:03 <Taneb> Help I'm tempted to do my family tree again
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13:55:07 <int-e> . o O ( Wouldn't that be a dag? I mean, eventually... )
13:56:44 <Taneb> Pretty soon in my ancestry, two of my grandparents were first cousins
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14:20:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NSFW]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44718&oldid=44713 * 91.155.73.101 * (+13)
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15:59:18 <Taneb> Who wants to see a VERY BIG IMAGE that I rendered but CANNOT SEE because it is TOO DAMN BIG
15:59:19 <Taneb> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/mandelbrot.png
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16:01:55 <mroman> http://codepad.org/LaK99cVI
16:02:02 <mroman> sadly [edx+bl] isn't a valid offset
16:03:40 <int-e> Taneb: cute, feh manages in just under 1GB... so 32 bits per pixel
16:04:45 <Taneb> My chromebook doesn't have enough memory to even try
16:06:56 <int-e> "display" uses 5GB
16:07:18 <b_jonas> Taneb: that's only 20k*10k pixels
16:07:27 <gamemanj> Wow, Firefox froze for a second or two
16:07:36 <Taneb> Took me 4 hours to render with 2 cores
16:07:50 <b_jonas> whta do you want about it?
16:07:56 <b_jonas> should I extract a rectangle or something?
16:07:59 <Taneb> I want to show it off
16:08:32 <int-e> firefox also uses about 1GB.
16:09:15 <gamemanj> but it can't really be appreciated without infinite resolution...
16:10:06 <Taneb> Infinite resolution is difficult
16:10:37 <gamemanj> in a PNG, probably not possible :)
16:10:50 <gamemanj> solution: The LLVM Image Format
16:12:07 <gamemanj> images are represented by a brainfuck program that, given two 64-bit floating point values, outputs the colour of the pixel
16:12:46 <gamemanj> not infinite resolution, but unless you want to change "floating point" to "big-decimals"...
16:14:06 <b_jonas> 64-bit floating point is definitely not infinite resolution
16:14:38 <gamemanj> now to work out how anyone would ever implement it
16:15:22 <b_jonas> but if you want nice manelbrot images and videos, there's some at http://www.madore.org/~david/math/mandelbrot.html
16:15:35 <oerjan> mandelbrot is one case where you actually _would_ want infinite resolution rather than just 64-bit. because zoooooming.
16:18:47 <gamemanj> Raytraced films that are sent as Brainfuck programs...
16:19:49 <mroman> but my str_cat is broken
16:26:19 <fizzie> Huh, I was expecting something to actually happen, but the "mem" in my silly taskbar thing just stayed at 43%. Oh well, memory use estimation is an inexact science.
16:26:25 <fizzie> (Opened it in a Chrome tab.)
16:27:09 <fizzie> There's no "find" option in Chrome's internal task manager and I've got too many tabs, I can't find it in the list.
16:28:05 <fizzie> Oh, there it is. It's using "216,608K" of memory, in a process shared by three tabs.
16:28:36 <fizzie> I have no idea how it would count something like graphical resources.
16:29:15 <fizzie> I think it's doing some sort of load-on-demand thing, because if I scroll by real fast, it takes a while to blink in.
16:29:44 <fizzie> (And actively flushing that out, because scrolling back-and-forth doesn't become fast.)
16:32:22 <fizzie> Didn't use much memory in the "zoomed-out" view, so I'm guessing it also rendered a low-res version for that.
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16:53:33 <mroman> also why's there so little things about C-- available?
16:54:24 <mroman> probably because it never really made it outside ghc
17:01:20 <b_jonas> which C--? aren't there like three different languages called that?
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17:34:29 <mroman> b_jonas: the one GHC use(s|d).
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17:41:25 <mroman> I think people have a poor understanding of why certain people are not allowed to donate blood.
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17:41:29 <mroman> Like people with cancer.
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17:44:36 <hppavilion[1]> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_Derivatives should be moved to its own page and the original location should become a page about what a BF derivative /is/
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17:45:52 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1] do you want to take up the torch of hating bf derivatives
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17:46:29 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think I'm qualified, having made a couple.
17:46:43 <hppavilion[1]> I only feel qualified to hate derivatives that don't do enough
17:47:02 <hppavilion[1]> Derivatives that do something new and unique are cool.
17:47:42 <hppavilion[1]> Thought attempts to make it /more/ minimalistic are good.
17:48:14 <hppavilion[1]> If I were to take up the torch, I would establish a "Comittee of Brainfuck Derivative Approval", which would decide whether a given derivative deserves its own page
17:48:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Phantom Hoover]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44721&oldid=20891 * Phantom Hoover * (-85) the end of an era
17:49:36 <b_jonas> I'd just purge all BF-derivatives except for brainfuck itself and Ook, with fire
17:50:24 <hppavilion[1]> What about, for example, a derivative that I'm thinking of called "ThueFuck", which is based on strings intead of integers?
18:03:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Essays/A Defence of Brainfuck Derivatives]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44722 * Hppavilion1 * (+1562) Started rough draft
18:05:12 <zzo38> Ook is not particularly remarkable either actually
18:05:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: maybe it's not, but I personally would not want to anger an orang-outan
18:07:44 <zzo38> I am not the one suggesting to purge everything with fire, though.
18:10:22 <hppavilion[1]> I vote we go through the wiki and uncensor every occurense of "Brainf*ck" or "Brainf***"
18:11:00 <int-e> it's hard. occurrence
18:11:10 <nortti> alternatively, create two new languages, brainf*ck and brainf***, very unlike brainfuck, and make them point to them
18:11:28 <int-e> (I mean that, I had to check how many "r" there are in that word)
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18:13:41 <hppavilion[1]> One should be based on λ-calculus, the other on Graph Rewriting (Kolmogorov Machines possibly)
18:14:20 <nortti> tag machines are also interesting
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18:14:35 <nortti> tho there's only so much you can do with them
18:15:01 <hppavilion[1]> (I think we should require Brainf*ck and Brainf*** to be TC)
18:15:15 <nortti> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag_system
18:17:40 <nortti> expression rewriting (a lá CAS) tarpit would be interesting, too. I don't think I've seen an esolang based on it
18:18:37 <hppavilion[1]> I suggested a language where the AST is a Directed Graph instead of a tree
18:18:57 <hppavilion[1]> And Control Flow is only possible by nesting an instruction inside itself
18:19:20 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: Is expression rewriting anything like Algbebra?
18:19:39 <nortti> https://bitbucket.org/purelang/pure-lang/wiki/Rewriting ← I was thinking of this
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18:20:31 <hppavilion[1]> I /was/ thinking of adding a CAS to be builtin to my language
18:21:06 <hppavilion[1]> I'm attempting to make a useful programming language while preserving Esolangity
18:22:13 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: The language would have importable syntax features (combinators come to mind)
18:22:43 <hppavilion[1]> You could literally do `getsynt combinators / import SK / I = SKK`
18:24:03 <hppavilion[1]> Can you think of any special syntaxes I could allow to be imported?
18:24:31 <lambdabot> LOWI 131750Z 07004KT 040V120 8000 FEW007 SCT013 BKN030 11/09 Q1011 NOSIG
18:25:05 <nortti> hppavilion[1]: how about being able to import some syntax stuff that allows for rpn?
18:25:30 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, there are special strings for embedded codes
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18:40:19 <hppavilion[1]> So to do, for example, combinators, you need a special string of something like this syntax:
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18:43:35 <nortti> [] is also used, I'd imagine
18:44:22 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: That could be confused with if the variable "combinator" is less than "SKK"
18:44:47 <hppavilion[1]> [] is used for lists and list subscripting (in a very pythonic way)
18:45:42 <hppavilion[1]> I can't think of anything that combinator{} would mean...
18:47:21 <hppavilion[1]> `getsynt thue, combinators, xml, sexpr, yaml` at LEAST
18:47:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: getsynt: not found
18:48:19 <hppavilion[1]> (A *good* IDE will syntax highlight special string)
18:49:48 <hppavilion[1]> So you can literally include XML directly into the language. That'd be used in GUI
18:50:37 <hppavilion[1]> Oh. Can't forget that there'll be some formal grammar libraries
18:55:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44723&oldid=44720 * SuperJedi224 * (+236)
18:57:35 <hppavilion[1]> What's the name of that linguistics-oriented programming language?
18:58:02 <int-e> @google linguistics-oriented programming language
18:58:04 <lambdabot> http://boole.stanford.edu/pub/lingol.html
18:58:04 <lambdabot> Title: A Linguistics Oriented Programming Language
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18:59:04 <hppavilion[1]> I've been googling for the last 10-15 minutes trying to find it
19:05:02 <myname> you lack precision on your deacription
19:06:18 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I was discussing a linguistics-oriented programming language. Someone sent a link. It's called "Grammar <something>"
19:07:12 <hppavilion[1]> It was too long ago to investigate my local logs. I don't know what day it was for the online logs
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19:11:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44724&oldid=44723 * SuperJedi224 * (+36)
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19:37:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44725&oldid=44724 * SuperJedi224 * (+68) /* Examples */
19:38:17 * ais523 finds it interesting that the computational complexity of matrix multiplication is unknown, but appears to be polynomial with a non-integer exponent between 2 and 3
19:42:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44726&oldid=44725 * SuperJedi224 * (+373)
19:44:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44727&oldid=44726 * SuperJedi224 * (+53)
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19:56:27 <zzo38> In some programs the syntax can be changed so it cannot highlight properly except if you execute the program.
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20:01:57 <zzo38> What uses can you think of for making insertion classes in TeX that use a negative multiplier and/or negative extra space skip?
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20:09:37 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a stack-based language called dijkstra for Junction
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20:21:49 <hppavilion[1]> The fuction syntax can either be, for example, "2 `sqrt" which pushes 2 on the stack then calls sqrt on it OR "2 sqrt `" which pushes 2 on the stack, pushes sqrt on the stack, then pops sqrt and calls it with 2 as its argument
20:22:25 <coppro> the latter seems more esoteric
20:22:31 <coppro> although the former is less consistent, which might be esoteric
20:24:19 <hppavilion[1]> The latter seems more strict and will lead to better code, and calling an argument on the output of a function makes more sense that way, but the former seems looks better, but it isn't as clean and if I want to do `` it's harder to implement
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22:47:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44729&oldid=44728 * SuperJedi224 * (+51) /* Instructions */
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23:09:21 <hppavilion[1]> (I don't like sports, but for some reason I'm always looking for ways to convert Esolang Design /into/ a sport. Guess I just don't like the physical action.)
23:24:20 <hppavilion[1]> So I thought up a new possible kind of "game" for designing esolangs
23:24:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Elendiastarman * New user account
23:25:17 <\oren\> is METAFONT turing complete?
23:25:40 <oerjan> no:elendig = en:awful hth
23:27:05 <hppavilion[1]> A machine/program is used to generate a random EBNF from a set of randomly-generated/selected regex tokens
23:28:26 <hppavilion[1]> It is up to the participants/teams to take that BNF and tokens, design a language using that (some rules could allow the BNF to be extended), and, if the competition requires design a lexer, parser, and executer to execute their designed language
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23:30:22 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: allow me to once again express enthusiasm about your idea for a language where the syntax doesn't form a tree.
23:31:23 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Thank you. I thought about that on my walk home and am still attempting to figure out how that'd work
23:31:50 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: are you familiar with the concept of a context-free language/grammar?
23:32:13 <hppavilion[1]> I could do a non-looping directed graph with something like x+y*z parsing to x+y and y*z, but that can become a tree too easily
23:33:26 <tswett> Now, the thing about an unambiguous context-free language is that words in the language are in a one-to-one correspondence with parse trees in the language.
23:33:45 <tswett> And each node in the parse tree simply corresponds to a "phrase", so to speak, within that word.
23:34:07 <tswett> So one approach is to just add syntax rules which *aren't* context-free.
23:34:24 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, I believe I understood that (but I'm not sure xD)
23:35:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'm still attempting to figure out what a non-context-free language is, because it seems to me that ANYTHING can be expressed in BNF, which is context-free if I'm correct
23:35:43 <Jafet> A language where the program source is a set of points and the program is defined by the unique polynomial of lowest degree containing those points.
23:35:53 <tswett> Here's a language that can't be expressed in BNF: the set of all strings of digits that are the decimal expansion of a prime number.
23:36:19 <tswett> Here's another thought. Every context-free language can be represented easily as a sub-language of the "parentheses language"—do you know the language I'm talking about?
23:36:54 <tswett> Or, at least, something more powerful than a nondeterministic push-down automaton.
23:37:28 <tswett> It's the language whose words are the strings composed of "correctly matched parentheses".
23:37:44 <tswett> Here's an unambiguous grammar for it:
23:37:57 <tswett> <parens> ::= "(" <parens> ")" <parens> | epsilon
23:38:23 <tswett> So here's my thought, then.
23:38:33 <tswett> Epsilon means the empty string.
23:39:01 <tswett> Consider how you might make the parentheses language such that it has a "parse digraph" instead of a parse tree.
23:39:34 <tswett> As it currently is, every pair of parentheses has at most one pair of parentheses which is the "next layer out".
23:39:52 <tswett> So how would you make it so a pair of parentheses can have *more* than one pair of parentheses which are the "next layer out"?
23:40:34 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out if this leads to a "What you're suggesting is entirely illogical" and you're just trying to help me figure it out on my own xD
23:40:52 <tswett> I think there's nothing inconsistent about your idea at all.
23:41:09 <tswett> I just thought of an idea that I really like: tie points!
23:41:26 <fizzie> a^n b^n c^n, the canonical non-context-free language. :)
23:41:52 <boily> hppavellon[1], hellørjan. I think I'm active.
23:41:58 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 8h 1m 31s ago: you may need to mapole around a bit. see the logs.
23:42:18 <tswett> Here's an otherwise-normal expression with "tie points" inserted: (<1> a + b) * (c + d) * (<1> e + f)
23:42:37 <tswett> The <1>s are the tie points.
23:43:11 <tswett> Actually, let me give you a different one. Just a string, not really an expression.
23:43:23 * boily lightly mapoles izabera
23:43:43 <tswett> The tie points denote, essentially, that parsing can freely jump from one point to the other.
23:43:59 <tswett> "a" is followed immediately by "b", but "a" is *also* followed immediately by "d".
23:44:15 <tswett> "d" is preceded immediately by "c", but it's also preceded immediately by "a".
23:44:39 <hppavilion[1]> That might help towards the Multiparentheses Language
23:44:42 <tswett> Now, how you'd parse this is a difficult question...
23:45:29 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Well, you'd probably... no... maybe you could? nah... hm...
23:45:33 <tswett> 'Course, one straightforward way to "de-context-free-ify" a language is by making it so that bracket matching is denoted by something other than positioning.
23:45:47 <tswett> So here's an expression: (a + [b + c) + d]
23:46:33 <tswett> So the expression within parentheses there is... uh... um...
23:46:43 <tswett> Or, here's yet another idea.
23:47:02 <tswett> First figure out what the "parse digraphs" of your language are going to look like, then figure out how to represent that by strings of symbols.
23:47:41 <fizzie> It's not quite related, but let's mention for the record that some Schemes have syntax that lets you write non-tree s-expressions, stuff like #1=(a b #2 d #2=(x y #1))
23:47:59 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: draw.io isn't have bad.
23:49:43 -!- VictorCL has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
23:50:09 <fizzie> (I think draw.io is an offshoot of "old" (not that old) JGraph, via their JavaScript reimagining called mxGraph.)
23:50:30 <Jafet> Of course, the syntax that is used to specify non-tree programs usually consists of trees.
23:51:26 * boily equally mapoles int-e
23:53:21 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: you're not using UTF-7, are you?
23:53:32 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: tell me, what's this: -+
23:53:46 <tswett> Does UTF-7 even work that way? I don't remember.
23:53:48 <fizzie> I got that syntax wrong again, it would've been #0=(a b #1# d #1=(x y #0#)) for that example.
23:53:56 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: - is a dash and + is me pretending to be someone hitting shift too early
23:54:04 * oerjan thinks that bfjoust grammar is probably not context-free, due to nested ({})%
23:54:22 <hppavilion[1]> (Someone careless, like a <name censored> for president poster)
23:54:56 <hppavilion[1]> It should include loops, as that's the only way I can really demonstrate how this program works
23:55:06 <tswett> oerjan: that seems perfectly context-free to me.
23:56:34 <fizzie> tswett: In (a(b{c{d}e}f)%1 g)%2 the innermost {} pairs with the outermost ().
23:56:43 <oerjan> tswett: nested like this ( ( { { } } ) % ) %
23:58:38 <oerjan> back when, i figured it's the intersection of two context-free languages, one that matches brackets normally and one that matches ( to { and } to )
23:59:16 <hppavilion[1]> What's a simple program involving loops, but not too advanced for someone drawing its AS(T|G) on a laptop (so no 99 bottles of beer on the wall)