00:00:10 <shachaf> the thing surrounding what's-his-name in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html is the thing from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html
00:00:15 <shachaf> ais523: Haven't read it yet.
00:00:53 <shachaf> Will hopefully get to it soon.
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00:13:53 <izabera> http://research.microsoft.com/~cohen/WangFinal.pdf
00:13:53 <\oren\> votes are being counted!
00:15:07 <\oren\> if anyone actually cares who is in charge of canada, you can watch the election results http://www.cbc.ca/includes/federalelection/dashboard/
00:21:08 <HackEgo> `culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
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00:31:27 <ais523> \oren\: I care about the election itself but need someone to explain it to me, because I'm not following Canadian politics closely
00:31:47 <ais523> it's more something I check in on time to time
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00:34:30 <\oren\> Well, for starters, the colours:
00:34:55 <\oren\> Red = Liberals, essentially centre-left
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00:36:56 <\oren\> Orange = NDP = New Democratic Party , hard left
00:37:26 <\oren\> Green = Green Party, superextreme left environmentalists
00:37:53 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized. Kleene algebra operates on strings.
00:38:01 <\oren\> Green probably will get maybe one seat, so they aren't important
00:38:25 * ais523 wonders why environmental parties tend to be left
00:38:52 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: It is a bit ironic, being that they like to /conserve/
00:39:07 <hppavilion[1]> Or was that the joke ais523 was already trying to make
00:40:44 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: oerjan: wasn't meant to be a joke
00:41:29 <hppavilion[1]> Now that you mention it, that is a little interesting; not that there are ones in the left, but that they're /all/ in the left.
00:41:30 <\oren\> so the main story tonight is that after 10 years of the conservatives under Harper, people want to get rid of him, badly
00:43:49 <ais523> is he still leader of the conservatives, or have they nominated someone else in an attempt to avoid getting voted out?
00:44:03 <\oren\> no he's still the candidate
00:44:06 <ais523> in other news, apparently make accepts $($(x)) in a makefile
00:44:34 <ais523> acting much the same way as PHP or Perl
00:45:38 <ais523> anyway, Canadian politics (sorry for interrupting the offtopic conversation with an ontopic one)
00:46:10 <ais523> normally we discuss canadian politics in ##nomic because it's ontopic there
00:46:51 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I haven't read it, but it should be noted that "algorithm" is actually eponymous, it's a corruption of someone's name
00:46:59 <ais523> not sure about "algebra" but it might have a similar etymology
00:47:19 <ais523> in which case the book's name is trying to make a joke but the joke fails because the etymology really does work like that
00:47:54 <ais523> but you also use it with names and the like
00:49:04 <hppavilion[1]> But "A Gebra Named Al" was a book they made me read in 6th grade on algebra. It was a nice book, if I remember correctly.
00:49:41 <zgrep> What's a gebra, then?
00:49:59 <ais523> I find that "the" is a word that many non-native-English speakers have trouble with because it works differently in different languages, either slightly (e.g. in French you use "le"/"la" with country names), or heavily (in Chinese it doesn't exist at all, AFAIK)
00:50:07 <ais523> it doesn't exist in Latin either
00:50:32 <hppavilion[1]> I'd kind of like to see a book on interesting little pockets of mathematics, which actually gives you in-depth information on it, that is all tied together with a plot. I think To Mock a Mockingbird is supposed to be like that...
00:51:01 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: most of Smullyan's books are like that
00:51:09 <ais523> at least the ones that aren't massively long textbooks
00:51:31 <ais523> Forever Undecided is one of my favourites, although some of them are more appropriate to esolanging (like The Lady or the Tiger?)
00:51:40 <hppavilion[1]> "Raymond Merrill Smullyan (/ˈsmʌli.ən/; born May 25, 1919)[1] is an American mathematician, concert pianist, logician, Taoist philosopher, and magician."
00:52:57 <ais523> prepositions are even worse, they don't seem to be consistent between languages at all, and yet you can't just omit them because they're needed to understand the meaning of the sentence
00:54:20 <shachaf> Hebrew has a definite article but no indefinite article.
00:54:28 <shachaf> Is there any language with the reverse situation?
00:54:41 <shachaf> Newspaper Headlinese has no articles at all.
00:57:56 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized. If kleene algebra has multiplication, then it has exponentation (I think). Therefor it has roots.
00:58:35 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: exponentiation is by an integer
00:58:50 <ais523> you can define the inverse of that but it's a partial function
00:59:00 <ais523> (ababab)^1/3 = ab, but (ababa)^1/3 isn't defined
01:00:39 <hppavilion[1]> How does exponentiation where the power is a fraction of a non-one numerator work I wonder?
01:01:32 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to make a mathematics website that talks about the parts of mathematics /not/ covered on other mathematics websites.
01:01:33 <fizzie> (ababab)^2/3 = (ababab)^(2*1/3) = ((ababab)^1/3)^2 = (ab)^2 = abab would make sense.
01:02:32 <fizzie> And x^(2/n) is root(x^2, n), because of the above.
01:04:17 <fizzie> Or root(x, n)^2, since multiplication is commutative.
01:06:08 <hppavilion[1]> "In quatenions, multiplication doesn't support the commutative property. In octonions, it doesn't even support the associative property. In sedenions, it isn't even fucking reflexive"
01:06:36 <ais523> oh, as in 1×1 isn't necessarily 1?
01:06:47 <ais523> you wouldn't normally expect multiplication to be reflexive
01:07:43 <ais523> according to Wikipedia, the property octonions have and sedenions don't is x(xy)=(xx)y
01:08:15 <hppavilion[1]> Isn't that the associative property? Wait, or is that a special case?
01:08:23 <ais523> it's a special case of associativity
01:08:29 <ais523> octonions have that, but not the general case
01:09:24 <shachaf> Multiplication without associativity? Sounds like scow.
01:10:36 <shachaf> That reminds me of something in Pippi Longstocking, or at least in the Hebrew version.
01:10:52 <fizzie> There's a Hebrew version of it?
01:10:58 <shachaf> She says that X without Y is like X' without Y', or X'' without Y''
01:11:09 <shachaf> Maybe she says chocolate ice cream without chocolate, or something like that.
01:11:09 <fizzie> Fun fact: the given name is adjusted to "Peppi" in Finnish.
01:11:22 <shachaf> fizzie: In Hebrew in the version I read she was called Gilgi.
01:11:29 <shachaf> And there's a movie where she's called Bilbi.
01:12:09 <shachaf> A direct transliteration wouldn't go over well.
01:12:14 <fizzie> There's a related Finnish proverb, that goes X without Y "on kuin talo ilman aitan polulla astelevaa emäntää."
01:12:40 <fizzie> (It's based on a quote out of Aleksis Kivi's Seitsemän veljestä.)
01:13:15 <fizzie> Google Translate isn't doing so well on that.
01:13:31 <ais523> can you translate it manually?
01:13:35 <ais523> (into English, that is)
01:13:53 <fizzie> Yes, but not in a way that would retain the content very well.
01:15:16 <fizzie> Very approximately, "like a house without a wife* walking on the path to the barn", where especially emäntä -> wife doesn't really carry over the connotations.
01:16:11 <ais523> is the implication that the house is lonely and that's why it's seeking the barn's company?
01:17:22 <fizzie> The supposed implication is that the man (sorry for all this cisgender bias) living in the house will be unhappy. And I guess walking to/from the barn is the standard location for the wife to be.
01:18:10 <fizzie> Google Translate, for me, says "-- like a house without a path to the barn with a mistress", which uses an even worse word (at least to my understanding of English), and manages to make it sound like the path to the barn is the important part.
01:19:36 <oerjan> ais523: algebra is not eponymous, but it's from the book that the guy who algorithm is named after wrote hth
01:19:45 <fizzie> I'm sure there's a translation of Seitsemän veljestä that gets it more right.
01:20:02 <ais523> oerjan: the same person discovered both algorithms and algebra?
01:20:05 <fizzie> "Seitsemän veljestä has been translated twice into English, first by Alex. Matson,[1] later by Richard Impola --"
01:20:17 <fizzie> "Note that Matson wrote his first name with the period ("Alex.") to indicate that it was a short form."
01:20:25 <ais523> or did he/she discover algebra, became famous for it, and then algorithms were named after him/her due to being famous?
01:20:54 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm pretty sure algorithms were invented by al gore hth
01:22:08 <zgrep> fizzie: Sounds like a fun way to make music...
01:23:54 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, that was the World Wide Web. Most people think he invented the internet, but he only invented the WWW.
01:25:17 <\oren\> 8 minutes till the polls close, and the Blue Jays are winning 9-2
01:25:28 <ais523> \oren\: are the two connected?
01:25:32 <oerjan> <shachaf> Is there any language with the reverse situation? <-- i distinctly recall last we asked this, i concluded farsi and/or turkish were examples
01:25:51 <ais523> also, is there any news on who's winning yet? or is it like the UK, where news about elections is suppressed while polling is open?
01:26:11 <ais523> (news outlets are only allowed to report very basic facts about the elections while polling is open, such as the fact that they exist)
01:26:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]> How does exponentiation where the power is a fraction of a non-one numerator work I wonder?
01:27:02 <\oren\> The Liberal party has swept the Atlantic provinces
01:27:06 <oerjan> stupid mouse slipped a line
01:27:20 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, they haven't even taught us that sqrt(x) = x**(1/2)
01:27:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: my comment was going to be "i have a strong sense of deja vu today"
01:27:38 <ais523> I assume they haven't taught you what sqrt(-1) is yet either
01:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: She just mentioned imaginary numbers for the first time today. I think.
01:27:54 <oerjan> well someone did, and who else would it be
01:28:05 <ais523> although x**(1/2) is a convenient way to write sqrt(x) on IRC (although, mostly when generalized)
01:28:16 <zgrep> ais523: That doesn't seem that convinient...
01:28:28 <ais523> x**(1/3), possibly with variant notations for exponentials, is by far the easiest way to write cube root
01:28:37 <ais523> because the cube root symbol requires a bunch of Unicode
01:28:37 <zgrep> That, however, I agree with.
01:29:07 <ais523> I didn't realise there was a specific cube root symbol
01:29:10 <zgrep> That looks like a cabaret function.
01:29:42 <ais523> although I guess a³√b would be ambiguous if there weren't
01:29:56 <shachaf> Did you read _The Number Devil_?
01:30:03 <shachaf> That was a good book I read when I was young.
01:30:35 <ais523> now I'm trying to remember the books I read when I was very young
01:30:50 <hppavilion[1]> I've seen people talk about {}=0, and I assume that that that's like church numerals; a symbolic form of representation that is just treating {} as 0, not literal equality. Now I want to find the wiki article that talks about this, but I don't know what to look up xD
01:30:51 <\oren\> I read the number devil
01:31:00 <ais523> there was a sequence of books, I think called "Puddle Lane", which had very simple vocabulary and in which nothing much really happened
01:31:09 <ais523> pretty suitable for learning to read on
01:31:48 <\oren\> the polls in central canada are closed now
01:34:05 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: look up "ZFC", specifically the axiom of infinity (which is normally considered to define the natural numbers)
01:34:05 <oerjan> <ais523> oerjan: the same person discovered both algorithms and algebra? <-- well he got algorithms named after him, pretty sure euclid had one much earlier, and probably the egyptians and babylonians too
01:34:37 <ais523> isn't it possible to come up with an algorithm despite not knowing what they are?
01:35:01 <ais523> \oren\: I take it the closings/openings are based on timezones?
01:35:52 <hppavilion[1]> How about a funge where the code can modify the topology of funge-space?
01:36:16 <fizzie> fungot: How do you feel about that?
01:36:16 <fungot> fizzie: using this pointer and the pet 64, cris berneburg for proof reading.
01:36:40 <fizzie> fungot: He proofread the whole book using just one pointer and a PET 64? Impressive.
01:36:41 <fungot> fizzie: when writing the file as the sprite using blanks and solid circles shift+q in data port a has the important lesson here is as follows:
01:37:35 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: The IPMD Funge-98 fingerprint is (in a very limited way) like that.
01:37:58 <fizzie> It can restrict an IP to run in 1-, 2- or 3-dimensional mode.
01:42:33 <oerjan> incidentally, al-khwarizmi means something like "the guy from Khwarezm". as i recall reading, Khwarezm was a relatively prosperous region in central asia until they made the mistake of gravely angering a certain guy called Genghis Khan...
01:44:03 <ais523> fizzie: can it increase the number of dimensions beyond that of the original program?
01:44:09 <ais523> e.g. can it make v not reflect in Unefunge?
01:44:29 <ais523> (presumably it'd enter an infinite loop unless you used the now two- or three-dimensional p to put another command in its path)
01:45:11 <\oren\> CBC is projecting a liberal government based on, I assume, what they pulled out of their
01:45:26 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Not topological enough. I want curves, goddammit.
01:45:38 <\oren\> i mean they have basically no data yet
01:46:13 <oerjan> (protip: don't kill the emissaries of great conquerors. unless your byname is dracula.)
01:46:45 <hppavilion[1]> Of all the esolang families, I think the fungoids are the ones with the greatest probability of general acceptance
01:47:10 <ais523> \oren\: in the last UK election, the BBC predicted that the Conservatives would be the largest party by a large margin, right after the polls closed
01:47:31 <ais523> nobody really believed them, but eventually it turned out that they'd /under/estimated and the Conservatives actually got a majority
01:47:55 <ais523> then all the pollsters were depressed that they hadn't figured it out, and all the political pundits were trying to figure out why and how
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01:49:06 <fizzie> ais523: As far as I can tell, yes.
01:50:07 <ais523> in that case it should really let programs have arbitrarily many dimensions (so long as the number of dimensions is some finite number that fits in a fungecell)
01:50:38 <ais523> or perhaps even have +1 and -1 dimension options, to make Funge-98 TC in a particularly unusual way
01:51:03 * ais523 tries to work out if zero-dimensional funge is even potentially useful
01:51:16 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: commands that increase/decrease the number of dimensions
01:51:44 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Nofunge-98 isn't useful, but a 0D fung/oid/ could be
01:51:54 <fizzie> ais523: It's one of the RC fingerprints, I don't think their fungespace implementation is generic enough to go over 3.
01:52:00 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Formula was my attempt to make a zero-dimensional language
01:52:17 <ais523> that reminds me, "is two-dimensional Formula TC" is an outstanding question
01:52:30 <hppavilion[1]> For example, if every unicode character was assigned a script value that could be useful
01:52:45 <ais523> although come to think of it, you can probably compile http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nopfunge into it (which would make it TC)
01:52:50 <hppavilion[1]> (λ: Evaluate a lambda calculus expression entered into a snazzy GUI)
01:53:48 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well I guess if the language only allows for one-command programs, but one of those commands is X from CHIQRSX9+
01:53:56 <ais523> (which is defined as "makes the language Turing-complete")
01:56:44 <ais523> wait, no, I'm being stupid
01:56:51 <ais523> Nopfunge allows wire crossing, Formula doesn't
01:56:56 <ais523> that makes a huge difference in this case
01:57:38 <hppavilion[1]> I think part of J-Why could be generalized to become actually /useful/ in teaching programmers
01:57:51 <hppavilion[1]> (Existing programmers, not new programmers. God no for new programmers)
01:59:51 <ais523> Nopfunge is well-named; it basically is a derivative of Formula-2 which adds NOP, and that makes it TC
02:00:04 <ais523> (unless Formula-2 is itself TC, which seems unlikely but possible)
02:01:24 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know enough about topology to decide how a Topologically-Inclined Fungoid would work xD
02:05:52 <\oren\> wow burger queen have 5 ridings!
02:09:51 <\oren\> god damn it chrstia freeland is winning
02:17:25 <\oren\> wow the whole damn country is red
02:18:56 <\oren\> but the PC's are still taking Alberta and Saskachewan
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02:20:04 <ais523> a centre-left party doing well is not surprising, if the previous government is right/centre-right but the PM is unpopular
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02:22:46 <\oren\> Yeah. In terms of election promises, this means we'll have legal marijuana
02:24:03 <ais523> that sounds like a pretty clever/simple way to increase turnout
02:24:25 <ais523> normally I don't care about election promises much because the typical track record for actually keeping them is low
02:24:43 <ais523> the previous UK government I was apprehensive about, because one of their main election promises, I really dislked
02:24:49 <ais523> (the whole Big Society thing)
02:26:58 <ais523> there was also the whole tuition fees thing, which I didn't care about nearly as much as some other people, but which in retrospect may have been the Conservatives intentionally making the Lib Dems look bad in order to improve their position at the next election
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03:58:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Infinite Vector]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44805&oldid=44775 * Ais523 * (+300) reply
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04:11:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unnamed]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44806 * Vihan * (+1866) Created Unnamed
04:11:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unnamed]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44807&oldid=44806 * Vihan * (+10)
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04:29:23 <ais523> haha, unnamed has two different commands; the only syntactic difference between them is that one of them has two parameters the same, and the other has the two parameters different; and there isn't a semantic difference, the same-parameter command does the same thing that the different-parameter would if given two equal parameters
04:29:39 <ais523> it's probably just a mistake / not thinking things through, but I like it on a conceptual level
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04:54:29 <\oren\> Ok, majority govt. Now let's not pull an Obama and try for consensus... Ram the marijuana down the conservatives' throats!
04:56:56 <ais523> \oren\: did you vote Liberal by any chance?
04:57:08 <ais523> and was that the only reason, or were there others?
04:57:31 <\oren\> I was hoping for a Lib-NDP coalition
04:58:24 <pikhq_> Gay marijuana healthcare ahoy!
04:59:25 <kallisti> maybe when we stop spending literally all of our money on military
04:59:27 <\oren\> But I do support legalizing marijuana, even though I've never tried it
04:59:30 <kallisti> we can finally legalize gay weed
05:00:02 <pikhq_> On a more serious note, yes, I do support legalizing weed.
05:00:07 <pikhq_> I have even voted in favor of it.
05:00:07 <kallisti> and have good infrastructure and public services and affordable higher education
05:00:29 <pikhq_> Don't really care to imbibe, but that's just me.
05:00:50 <\oren\> yah that too, but legal marijuana is a election promise that doesn't cost any money
05:01:01 <\oren\> in fact it reduces costs
05:01:05 <kallisti> eventually our budging will be so skewed toward military that congress just shuts down and we become an independent military group.
05:03:46 <\oren\> well, we canadians kind of rely on you being scary, seeing as we can't really afford a real military
05:03:49 <kallisti> defending nothing, invading everything. freedom and democracy for everyone
05:04:50 <kallisti> my favorite thing is the people on Twitter who threatened to move to Canada over the supreme court decision on same-sex marriage.
05:05:15 <kallisti> they obviously do not know anything about Canada.
05:05:25 <ais523> did Canada have same-sex marriage already, by any chance?
05:05:40 <pikhq_> kallisti: Actually yes.
05:05:51 <pikhq_> Mexico's Supreme Court ruled on it a week before the US.
05:06:10 <\oren\> canada has had gay marriage for more than a decade
05:06:13 <kallisti> and several European nations have had it for over a decade now
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05:17:39 <\oren\> Also. they should make this his official picture https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRuvAh-UsAAZZXd.png:large
05:21:37 <coppro> \oren\: you're canadian?
05:22:03 <coppro> I was sitting in a polling station waiting for the last voters to go by when I started to hear the results Oo
05:22:56 <ais523> coppro: you were an election helper?
05:24:31 <pikhq_> https://helloworld.letsencrypt.org/ \o/
05:28:38 <coppro> ais523: no, a scrutineer
05:28:50 <coppro> (deputy returning office)
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06:56:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nopfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44808&oldid=44272 * Keymaker * (+329) Added a mention of translation's halting and A register.
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08:30:59 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, but that wasn't the non-obvious thing to me in OotS #996. the part that was non-obvious to me is that that creature template gives him the ability to turn to that animal for free, not only to turn to the animal from #932.
08:35:20 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Hebrew has a definite article but no indefinite article. Is there any language with the reverse situation?" -- haven't we had this discussion a month ago already? I pointed to http://wals.info/chapter/37 which listed some languages, but the comments on wals pointed out that some of that data was wrong.
08:36:39 <b_jonas> oh, algebra! you were talking about a lot of things this night
08:38:43 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> The supposed implication is that the man (sorry for all this cisgender bias) living in the house will be unhappy." -- hah, I'm actually reading Kalevala these days, in Rácz István's translation, and it's probably the most gender biased epic ever.
08:39:26 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> oerjan: i'm pretty sure algorithms were invented by al gore hth" -- oh, good one, we should add that to a wisdom
08:40:00 <ais523> `le/rn al gore/al gore invented the algorithm
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08:43:43 <b_jonas> `learn algorithms were invented by Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
08:43:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'algorithm': algorithms were invented by Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
08:47:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44809&oldid=44666 * 196.21.124.114 * (+327) /* Game */
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09:01:16 <kallisti> god I forgot how backwards the Python community is
09:14:08 <b_jonas> How come there's no Battlegrowth instant that costs {G/W} yet (that is, a reversed polarity Scar). Isn't growing a creature supposed to be slightly cheaper than shrinking a creature?
09:16:08 <kallisti> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/890128/why-python-lambdas-are-useful just read this
09:16:18 <kallisti> all of the comments and responses
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10:02:24 <Jafet> Python merely lowers the bar.
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10:08:05 <Jafet> `learn Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore.
10:08:08 <HackEgo> Learned 'algorithm': Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore.
10:09:13 <b_jonas> Jafet: hey, did you just overwrite mine?
10:09:26 <b_jonas> Jafet: at least keep the bit about God's Algorithm
10:09:39 <HackEgo> Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore.
10:10:04 <b_jonas> hmm, should I `revert war on this?
10:10:33 <Jafet> Is god's algorithm actually written down anywhere though?
10:10:42 <Jafet> I hear it's p. big
10:11:29 <b_jonas> Jafet: you can't write it down, but it's very easy (on any modern computer) to find the fastest solution for any one starting position
10:11:47 <b_jonas> Jafet: so dynamically calculating it is easier than writing down everything
10:12:25 <Jafet> Ah, there is actually an algorithm.
10:12:39 <b_jonas> Jafet: the difficult thing the researchers did (with the help of some large number of computers provided by Google) is to actually compute this for all starting positions to verify that it never takes more than 20 steps,
10:12:50 <b_jonas> whcih needed a lot of clever optimizations of course
10:13:39 <b_jonas> But really, if you only need the algorithm for one starting position, a typical desktop pc can compute it for you in a minute or a second, I don't know which.
10:14:37 <b_jonas> Basically, there are about 2**64 positions, which is too large to search all, but its square root is 2**32 so it's easy to do a two-way search of 10 moves from each side.
10:16:58 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
10:17:32 <fizzie> Still haven't fixed that. Maybe some day.
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10:26:32 <HackEgo> algorithms were invented by Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
10:26:38 <b_jonas> it might be better to combine those two thoguh
10:27:20 <b_jonas> `learn algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
10:27:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'algorithm': algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
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10:43:36 <boily> coppro: CHELLOPPRO!
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10:44:23 <Taneb> boily, that just sounds like someone really good at the cello
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10:50:10 <boily> Tanelle. maybe he is?
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10:52:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoticon]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44810&oldid=33710 * 110.92.124.219 * (-4) /* Emoticon basics */
10:55:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoticon]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44811&oldid=44810 * 110.92.124.219 * (+51) /* Introduction */
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11:00:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoticon]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44812&oldid=44811 * 110.92.124.219 * (-102) /* Emoticon basics */
11:01:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Exomuse * New user account
11:09:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric programming language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44813&oldid=37181 * Exomuse * (+29)
11:13:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Exomuse]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44814 * Exomuse * (+256) Created page with "+[--------->++<]>+.++++.+[->+++<]>+.++++..----.+++++.-------.-[--->+<]>--.-[--->++<]>-.+++++.-[->+++++<]>-.---[->++++<]>.------------.---.--[--->+<]>-.---[----->++<]>.--------..."
11:21:24 <lambdabot> CYUL 201100Z 23019KT 15SM OVC067 12/06 A2992 RMK AC8 SLP132
11:23:11 <lambdabot> EGLL 201050Z AUTO 32005KT 290V010 9999 FEW019 13/08 Q1028 NOSIG
11:23:19 <lambdabot> EFHK 201050Z 11009KT 9999 BKN021 05/01 Q1025 NOSIG
11:26:05 <fizzie> I'm a bit ashamed of not biking to work here, because the weather would permit that for a much longer time of the year (yes, yes, you can technically do it all year round, but I'm not crazy); it's just that doing it out there all mixed up in the traffic seems so intimidating, after having gotten used to my previous "6 km of bike trails only with no car traffic" commute.
11:28:26 <fizzie> They should build one of those cycling superhighways they have, except one from my front door to the office.
11:29:09 <boily> fizziello. biking with cars around you is an interesting experience that offers plenty of learning opportunities.
11:29:34 <fizzie> Yes, such as what's it like being crushed by a vehicle?
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11:31:53 <boily> being crushed by a moving vehicle, smashing into a vehicle (did that once; I got something in my eye, couldn't see anything and stamped myself on a parked car), smashing into another biker, smashing into a pedestrian...
11:32:19 <fizzie> I'm not sure you're really selling the idea here.
11:32:44 <boily> getting a ticket by a cop (got that too!)
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12:51:51 <Taneb> I have half of the key to my bike lock in my pocket
12:53:02 <Taneb> Unlikely, I believe it's stuck in the lock
12:53:06 <Taneb> Are you my bike lock
12:53:52 <b_jonas> @tell ais523 http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/battle-zendikar-update-bulletin%E2%80%94comprehensive-rules-changes-2015-10-09 at 601.2 tells that the update should close a recently added hole about an exploit where you could see hidden information by proposing an illegal spell and rolling it back; but I don't see the fix in the 2015-09-26 comprehensive rules. What gives?
12:54:18 <int-e> `learn precious? That doesn't ring a bell. ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:54:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'precious?': precious? That doesn't ring a bell. ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:54:44 <int-e> `` mv wisdom/precious\? wisdom/precious
12:56:14 <b_jonas> Question. In windows CMD, does CALL always work for a non-batch file executable? I want to run an executable by name without extension from the path, and it may or may not be a batch file.
12:57:40 <fizzie> https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb490873.aspx "call [[Drive:][Path] FileName -- [ Drive : ][ Path ] FileName : Specifies the location and name of the batch program you want to call. The FileName parameter must have a .bat or .cmd extension."
12:58:25 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah yeah, but that's not what it seems like when I test
12:58:45 <fizzie> Then you must be relying on undocumented stuff.
12:59:13 <b_jonas> come on, I'm using CMD, where even half of the quoting is undocumented and inconsistent
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13:10:41 <noncom> did anyone try to implement https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hyper_Set_Language ?
13:30:57 <fizzie> 216 pages in Category:Unimplemented, 594 in Category:Implemented. That's not actually too terrible.
13:31:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: are all languages categorized in one of those or Category:Unimplementable ?
13:31:57 <fizzie> Category:Languages has 923 pages.
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13:33:00 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't notice your reference to Category:Unimplementable. That's not a category we have.
13:33:05 <fizzie> We do have Category:Uncomputable.
13:33:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: also, some of that statistics might be skewed by the stereotypical hundreds of brainfuck equivalents that are trivially implemented with a one-liner like sed 'y/<>-+[]/g;s/left/</g;s/right/>/g;s/down/-/g;s/up/+/g;s/begin/[/g;s/end/]/g' | brainfuck
13:33:24 <b_jonas> we don't have an unimplementable category?
13:33:32 <b_jonas> we have tons of unimplementable languages
13:34:00 <b_jonas> unimplementable for all kinds of different reasons, each language inventing a new one
13:34:29 <b_jonas> some are boring, like, so underspecced that nobody understands what the text on the page means and the original author vanished
13:34:44 <b_jonas> but there are lots of languages that are unimplementable for interesting reasons
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13:35:19 <b_jonas> there are also lots that are implementable in theory, but there's not much point implementing them, because the purpose is more a theoretical exercise than something to actually run programs in
13:36:28 <nortti> I could've sworn there was a such category?
13:36:55 <nortti> oh, I was thinking of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Uncomputable
13:38:32 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Schrodilang is the only language that's in both Category:Implemented and Category:Unimplemented, and that's just a joke.
13:38:38 <b_jonas> there's http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Unusable_for_programming but that's different, eg. HQ9+ is unusable for programming but certainly implementable
13:38:44 <nortti> is it possible to do a search like "in Category:Languages not-in Category:Unimplemented not-in Category:Implemented"?
13:39:03 <fizzie> nortti: There's a MultiCategorySearch extension, but we don't have it installed.
13:39:32 <Taneb> nortti: in classical logic that ought to be emoty
13:39:34 <noncom> actually i think that languages like hyper set or binary lambda are not really esoteric, but dsl
13:39:48 <b_jonas> nortti: you could do it client-side by downloading the whole list of contents of each category with the api
13:39:50 <noncom> from a pov, any dsl can be seen as esoteric
13:39:54 <b_jonas> they're not big categories
13:40:31 <fizzie> b_jonas: I located Schrodilang just by copy-pasting the page lists of both categories in a file + sort | uniq -c | sort -nr.
13:41:52 <b_jonas> oh, there's also funny combinations like BANCStar which is implemented but unimplementible
13:42:01 <fizzie> The category intersection can be a useful tool for answering "what was that 2D language with a stack?" kind of questions. Or at least would be if the categorization was all that complete.
13:42:27 <b_jonas> and there could be something like
13:42:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 2104: not found
13:42:40 <nortti> < b_jonas> oh, there's also funny combinations like BANCStar which is implemented but unimplementible ← why is it unimplementable?
13:42:44 <b_jonas> languages that are unimplementible now but will be implementible later
13:42:48 <nortti> lack of proper documentation?
13:42:51 <b_jonas> nortti: we don't have a complete enough spec, yes
13:43:02 <b_jonas> too much is missing to make a convincing implementation
13:43:53 <b_jonas> but an implementation supposedly exists in a floppy disk somewhere, and someone has it and would give it to us, but he disappered in circumstances that aren't suspicious at all
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13:50:40 <fizzie> Oh, the top-level https://esolangs.org/wiki/1L page is also Implemented | Unimplemented.
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13:56:51 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/nvc3vdvh
13:59:18 <Lyka> HYDRA0004/99BEER is a program that outputs "## bottles of beer on the wall.\015\n" 99 times, where ## is a number from 99 to 01
14:00:32 <Lyka> let me know if anyone here cares
14:03:25 <Taneb> Remember that guy from the washington post
14:05:01 <Lyka> there's a person here from the washington post?
14:05:28 <Taneb> There was a couple of years ago
14:06:08 <Lyka> Tell said person to NOT use anything i type
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14:12:46 <b_jonas> Lyka: wait, you told us where you buried the body? I must have missed that
14:13:54 <Lyka> backyard of the house i grew up in. of course, that's the body of a pet guinea pig...
14:14:11 <Taneb> I wonder what happened to y old dog's body
14:14:38 <Lyka> creamated. like all the other dead pets the vets get
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14:15:22 <Taneb> She got hit by a train, or so I'm told
14:16:00 <Lyka> Canine Mafia got her
14:21:53 <Taneb> These lectures are fun when only three people try to answer questions
14:23:57 <Taneb> (representing chomsky grammars as graph grammars)
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19:36:35 <hppavilion[1]> I have no clue how to implement Control Flow in Unilang
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19:47:15 <shachaf> b_jonas: no revert war twh
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19:58:51 <ais523> one of the more reliable indicators of a spambot: it has a full name in the From: address, and says "hi, I'm «name»" or equivalent in the message body, and the two don't match
20:00:02 <b_jonas> ais523: why is that an indicator of spam? if I think you already know me from somewhere on the internet as a screen name, I might write that in an email, and I don't change the full name in the From.
20:00:05 <ais523> b_jonas: last I checked the comp rules hadn't been updated on the website yet
20:00:23 <ais523> b_jonas: well neither name looked like a screen name
20:00:26 <b_jonas> ais523: it is updated. it has the date in the text and the filename
20:00:56 <b_jonas> ais523: the editing process takes a while after the bulletin, but it's done by now
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22:02:06 <HackEgo> al gore invented the algorithm
22:02:26 <oerjan> `le/rn al gore/Al Gore invented the algorithm.
22:03:58 <oerjan> <b_jonas> [...] but the comments on wals pointed out that some of that data was wrong. <-- and i checked further on farsi and turkish and found that it was true for at least one of them.
22:04:56 <oerjan> cannot quite recall if it was both. i think farsi was most conclusive
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22:05:57 <HackEgo> algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
22:06:35 <oerjan> are you implying Al Gore isn't medieval
22:07:13 <oerjan> hm indeed, those two parts seem dissonant
22:07:38 <shachaf> 10:09 <b_jonas> Jafet: hey, did you just overwrite mine?
22:07:38 <shachaf> 10:09 <b_jonas> Jafet: at least keep the bit about God's Algorithm
22:08:26 <shachaf> imo it doesn't work at all
22:09:40 <oerjan> `` learn "Algorithms were invented by Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster." # Combining the two jokes doesn't really work. Also, proofreading.
22:09:43 <HackEgo> Learned 'algorithm': Algorithms were invented by Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster.
22:13:10 <oerjan> <b_jonas> [...] hah, I'm actually reading Kalevala these days, in Rácz István's translation, and it's probably the most gender biased epic ever. <-- proof that gender neutral pronouns don't help hth
22:15:22 <oerjan> indeed, Jafet managed to use correct capitalization and punctuation
22:16:06 <int-e> oerjan: surely the "popular sayings" part, alluding to aphorisms, could be kept?
22:16:41 <oerjan> the problem is, how does a google computer cluster invent a popular saying
22:16:49 <int-e> it's not less wrong than the second part anyway...
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22:17:02 <int-e> they have language models, what's the problem...
22:17:10 <oerjan> int-e: the problem isn't that they're wrong, the problem is that they're inconsistent with each other
22:17:15 <int-e> but we had God's algorithm long before we had proof of God's number.
22:17:22 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
22:17:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Deep neural networks and time machines. Not that I'm saying anything.
22:17:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: algorithm: not found
22:17:30 <int-e> so as I said, it's wrong regardless
22:17:34 <HackEgo> algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
22:17:55 <oerjan> oh what's God's algorithm then
22:18:04 <shachaf> i don't get the second part at all
22:18:14 <int-e> Well, I interpreted it as the optimal algorithm for solving Rubik's cube.
22:18:27 <int-e> http://www.cube20.org/
22:18:37 <int-e> "With about 35 CPU-years of idle computer time donated by Google"
22:20:25 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/.\(.*\)/A&./' wisdom/algorithm
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22:20:33 <HackEgo> Aalgorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster.
22:20:49 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/a//' wisdom/algorithm
22:20:55 <HackEgo> Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster.
22:21:10 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
22:21:25 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
22:21:59 <int-e> . o O ( Are there any Ørigami? )
22:22:20 <int-e> (to my mind, origami is only one step removed from papers)
22:22:27 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:22:55 <oerjan> none that still survive, i think. although ørjan did once find a book on origami in the school library.
22:23:21 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:24:59 * oerjan vaguely recalls you could make origami water balloons
22:25:41 <oerjan> sadly, i was much to well-behaved to make proper use of this knowledge.
22:33:57 <ais523> oerjan: are you a different person from ørjan in much the same way that I'm a different person from ais523_?
22:35:29 <oerjan> that's a very hypothetical question, as irc doesn't allow ø in nicks hth
22:36:11 <HackEgo> Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
22:36:15 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
22:36:30 <shachaf> I don't think ais523_ publishes paper.
22:37:22 <ais523> I'm trying to remember if it's me or ais523_ who published the papers
22:37:25 <oerjan> shachaf: so you're saying it's the other way around?
22:37:43 <ais523> I guess they were mostly submitted by my supervisor, who tends to use work computers (underscored) and personal laptops (not underscored) interchageably
22:37:48 <ais523> so I'm not really sure who they were submitted by
22:37:59 <fizzie> ais523: It's probably ais523_, because it looks like a bit of paper is sticking out there at the end.
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22:41:37 <boily> Good evening, Shachaf.
22:41:58 <boily> (is your first name Shachaf?)
22:43:53 <shachaf> boily: now you gotta write a higgledy-piggledy with that word hth
22:45:10 <int-e> not sure what pigs have to do with ornithology
22:45:25 <boily> int-ello. pigs fly. they are birds.
22:45:39 <int-e> thanks, that's an excellent point.
22:46:00 <shachaf> oh, you can make it slightly risqué by talking about ornithology and melittology
22:46:36 <HackEgo> drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
22:46:49 <HackEgo> drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
22:47:02 <int-e> ah, plural handling... right
22:47:48 <oerjan> shachaf: does "Kiki" mean anything twh
22:48:24 <HackEgo> Drone sex has never been observed in the wild; in fact it's rare to see drones in their natural habitat because they are extremely shy. Experiments with drones in captivity have only resulted in broken drones, and a rotor stuck in the ceiling. We are still looking for a biological explanation for the ever increasing drone population.
22:48:51 <int-e> bona fide melittology
22:49:10 <int-e> (where does one learn such words...)
22:49:15 <shachaf> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiki_(gathering) hth
22:49:26 <int-e> unless you read a lexicon...
22:50:19 <int-e> lexicon's a false friend there.
22:50:39 <oerjan> int-e: in norwegian too
22:51:28 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Flock_of_Seagulls
22:52:48 <oerjan> <int-e> (where does one learn such words...) <-- i think that one came up on the iwc forum, and may or may not have transfered here from there
22:53:13 <shachaf> oerjan: i was going to ask if johan means anything but i suppose it does
22:53:16 * oerjan spent plenty of time in his childhood reading the encyclopedia
22:53:23 <shachaf> if you're willing to follow enough convoluted links
22:53:55 <oerjan> shachaf: it is from hebrew hth
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23:16:58 <oerjan> boily: based on the logs, are you still biking in traffic, and if so, WHY?
23:18:45 * oerjan had his parent-encouraged attempt to start biking in trondheim quickly crushed by the bike getting damaged by the train trip.
23:20:42 * oerjan is _very_ good at never getting things fixed
23:21:59 <int-e> . o O ( We put the "pro" into procrastination. )
23:23:14 <oerjan> int-e: my dad tried giving me a self-help book for that
23:23:48 <ais523> but you couldn't be bothered to read it?
23:24:21 <int-e> oerjan: is it still on your to-read pile of books?
23:24:49 <oerjan> no, i'm pretty sure that book was in a pile i threw out
23:24:58 <fizzie> My bike's... uh, come one, what's the word. The thing you steer it with. The handlebars! Those. So those are still at a 90-degree angle (as in, the bar is parallel to the direction of travel, not the normal perpendicular orientation) from being compactly packed in the moving shipment, even though that was back in February or March or something.
23:25:49 <int-e> oh no, when did http://www.structuredprocrastination.com/ get a "modern" look? it used to be possible to just start reading that page without having to scroll down...
23:26:19 <oerjan> int-e: i guess it happened some time when he had something more important to do hth
23:26:36 <fizzie> int-e: I think the image should scroll, but at a slower rate compared to the text; the parallax thing is even more modern than the fixed image.
23:26:41 <int-e> and the photograph of the author at the beach is gone :/
23:26:59 * oerjan assumes so from vaguely remembering last it was mentioned
23:27:08 <fizzie> The top bar is doing a sufficiently modern thing with all this autohiding and fading stuff, at least.
23:27:13 <oerjan> structured destruction
23:27:52 <int-e> fizzie: ok, it doesn't do that without javascript
23:29:33 <boily> oerjan: no, the tethercat principle doesn't apply to my bike rides.
23:29:47 <boily> besides, it's way too cold outside. it was M04 yesterday morning!
23:30:00 <int-e> fizzie: and please, please tell me that CSS3 doesn't actually allow parrallax scrolling (without javascript)
23:30:43 <fizzie> int-e: As far as I can tell, the intended effect is to (animatedly) hide when you scroll down, and the reverse when you scroll up, plus also apply a fade such that the bar is blue when the top of the screen is fully in the content area, fully transparent when the page is scrolled to the top, and something in-between for the intermediate positions.
23:31:00 <oerjan> boily: my question was meant generally, not for this specific season hth
23:31:52 <boily> oerjan: yes, during summer I bike in traffic. there are even bike jams on some bikelanes.
23:32:09 <fizzie> int-e: In fact, seems that it does, through the "CSS Transforms" module.
23:32:19 <oerjan> tvtropes has got more annoying ads lately...
23:32:25 <fizzie> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-transforms/#perspective and so on.
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23:33:33 <fizzie> There's someone's demo at http://keithclark.co.uk/articles/pure-css-parallax-websites/demo1/
23:35:01 <boily> oerjan: oh, and you have to make do with the construction work, rampant potholes, hipsters, orange cones and burning astral balls of hydrogen.
23:35:23 <shachaf> int-e: whoa whoa whoa, this is great
23:35:42 <shachaf> int-e: that front page has a big useless image, choppy scrolling, everything i could want
23:35:44 <boily> holy fungot that's impressive.
23:35:44 <fungot> boily: multicolor color registers 53287-53294, d027-d02e). this is done by placing a value of the volume register. this bit register.
23:36:00 <boily> fungot: multicolor color?
23:36:00 <fungot> boily: a=64 or 32: poke v+21 and the number ( ai, a2, a3).
23:39:15 <oerjan> boily: i'm not entirely familiar with the last one
23:40:55 <fizzie> boily: Shorthand for "color registers for the multicolor mode", because the two colours of the "monochrome" mode have registers too, I think.
23:41:31 <fizzie> fungot: Where's the palette for the sprites?
23:41:31 <fungot> fizzie: 20 data 5,6,7,8 the
23:41:42 <fungot> fizzie: save ( in our example, run it.
23:42:05 <boily> fungot: I don't parenthesave.
23:42:06 <fungot> boily: note that only the beginning of vic. this means that interrupts from this register is dumped into the y position... these tell the vic-ii chip to the screen, the
23:45:58 <fizzie> Makes one wonder if a really patient person could learn how to program the C64 from this style.
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23:48:21 <fizzie> Perhaps by sampling sufficiently much to reconstruct the ngram frequencies, then trying to manually piece together fragments of the text.
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23:50:38 * oerjan adds *.doubleclick.net to the limited sites list
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