00:00:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:03:46 Hm... 00:03:54 What particularly strange fields are there? 00:04:06 (the Reals make up a field, don't they?) 00:04:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:04:53 Or rings. 00:04:56 Or anything like that. 00:05:58 * hppavilion[1] rings the EsoBell 00:08:42 we have an esobell? 00:09:04 Yes. We do. 00:09:47 It's a psionically-driven bell that calls out to all denizens of #esoteric. It only calls the subconsious, though. 00:10:16 right, it made me check the channel 00:10:30 (or perhaps that's just the way that #esoteric's name turns green in my IRC client) 00:11:45 The green is just programming. The Esobell affects your subconsious; only those who care about what is being said can really perceive it, and even then, "perceive" is a strong word for it. 00:13:56 hello did someone call me? 00:14:07 I felt a strange sensation. It's kind of hard to describe 00:14:37 That would be the esobell. Read up next time. 00:14:48 xD 00:15:00 oh I see 00:15:34 I'm not sure what would make a field "strange" 00:16:06 I'm looking for strange fields/rings that I can implement calculators for (similar to that first calculator we've all implemented, that asks for two numbers and an operation then returns the result) that uses something other than just the normal numbers we all deal with regularly 00:16:15 kallisti: Esoness. 00:16:38 well it's just that a field by definition obeys pretty normal ass laws 00:16:46 so for it to be "strange" it would just have to be related to quirky objects 00:16:49 which isn't all that internet . 00:16:52 uh, interesting 00:16:55 but also not very internet 00:17:15 I just want to deal with something other than numbers with a calculator xD 00:17:45 For example, I could do Kleene algebra, but then I thought "I wonder if there's anything more interesting". 00:18:32 uh... functions over fields are fields 00:19:10 look at the Num instance for (->) defined by lambdabot 00:19:31 Hm... 00:19:52 > (+5) * (+10) $ 12 00:19:54 No instance for (Show a0) 00:19:54 arising from a use of ‘show_M8463575583549700228385’ 00:19:54 The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous 00:20:00 hm 00:20:06 maybe it's not the same 00:20:30 should be like: (*) f g x = f x * g x 00:21:03 -!- ent0nces has joined. 00:21:27 `relcome ent0nces 00:21:29 ent0nces: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 00:22:01 hppavilion[1]: does the esobell work on #esoteric /regulars/ only, or on any esolanger? 00:23:37 @instances Num 00:23:40 (Data.Fixed.Fixed a), (Shrink2 a), Blind a, CReal, Complex a, Double, Expr, Float, Int, Int16, Int32, Int64, Int8, Integer, Interval a, Large a, Natural, Product a, Ratio a, Small a, Sum a, Sym a, Word, Word16, Word32, Word64, Word8 00:23:49 Shrink2? 00:23:58 :t Shrink2 00:24:00 a -> Shrink2 a 00:24:04 @src Shrink2 00:24:04 Source not found. I don't think I can be your friend on Facebook anymore. 00:24:25 > Shrink2 5 * Shrink2 10 00:24:26 Shrink2 {getShrink2 = 50} 00:24:33 waow 00:24:42 was the collection of insults in @src to at least make it more interesting when it inevitably fails to find whatever you're looking for? 00:24:42 @help 00:24:42 help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands 00:24:45 What's a 'Small a'? 00:24:47 @list 00:24:47 What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas. 00:24:51 @listmodules 00:24:52 activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where 00:24:54 ais523: Usually it only affects denizens of the channel, but it has been known to trigger avid esolangers who haven't discovered the channel or who have but aren't very active 00:25:02 @list base 00:25:02 base has no visible commands 00:25:11 @list instances 00:25:11 instances provides: instances instances-importing 00:25:26 hm, guess you can't find the instances that are defined for a type? 00:25:31 rather than the instances of a class? 00:25:34 @instances Shrink2 00:25:35 -!- variable has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero). 00:25:36 Couldn't find class `Shrink2'. Try @instances-importing 00:26:16 @unlambda ``.a.b.c 00:26:16 ab 00:26:16 Shrink2 is probably just some kind of newtype wrapper that has specific instances 00:26:34 I didn't realise lambdabot had an unlambda interp 00:26:57 @unlambda ```sii``si.a 00:26:57 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... 00:27:24 I wonder if anyone's made a Haskell compiler targeting unlambda. 00:28:19 I wonder if anyone's made an Unlambda impl that has vaguely efficient integers 00:28:32 unlambda has integers? 00:28:35 yeah that was my first thought "integers would be annoying" 00:29:09 boily: it has church numerals, most vaguely functional languages do 00:29:22 yeah you just use church numerals. 00:29:27 @def church2 f x = f f x 00:29:28 .L.hs:158:17: 00:29:29 Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: 00:29:29 t1 ~ t1 -> t2 -> t 00:29:32 err 00:29:34 @def church2 f x = f (f x) 00:29:35 Defined. 00:29:42 @def church3 f x = f (f (f x)) 00:29:44 Defined. 00:29:54 @def dechurch x = (x (+1)) 0 00:29:56 Defined. 00:29:57 church numerals + bijection between integers and naturals = tada! integers 00:30:09 > dechurch church2 00:30:12 2 00:30:12 -!- bender| has joined. 00:30:18 > dechurch (church2 . church3) 00:30:20 6 00:30:23 > dechurch (church2 .church3) 00:30:25 6 00:30:25 err 00:30:27 > dechurch (church2 church3) 00:30:29 9 00:30:39 > dechurch (church3 church3 church3) 00:30:41 *Exception: stack overflow 00:30:55 > dechurch (church3 (church3 church3)) 00:30:56 19683 00:30:59 is there any effective difference between church numerals and peano arithmetic? they seem more or less to be the same representation 00:31:56 they seem different to me 00:32:05 peano arithmetic is heavily based around a successor function 00:32:20 and the successor function is nontrivial to write in church arithmetic (you can do it but it's much more complex than some others) 00:32:43 you convert a church numeral into a peano number by giving it a successor and zero function as arguments 00:33:03 ah right 00:33:05 so you can think of church numerals as being represented as parameterizations of peano arithmetic 00:33:38 yeah I was just thinking visually they look similar 00:34:39 -!- bender| has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:34:55 they look the same but they use different mathematical representations 00:36:43 if you had a church number and you wanted to convert it to Peano you'd write f S Z, right? 00:37:08 so church numerals are like a fold function for peano numbers. 00:37:40 kallisti: right 00:44:14 the Recuderon is similar to unlambda / lambda calculus / system F with a specialized integer constructor 00:50:03 What particularly strange fields are there? <-- well i mentioned p-adic fields the other day, and then there are galois fields. the fields of meromorphic functions are also nice... 00:50:15 Oh yeah. 00:50:34 then there's the field of one element, which manages to be interesting despite not existing. 00:52:06 -!- ^v has joined. 00:53:37 uh... functions over fields are fields <-- nope, you get things that you cannot divide on other than (const 0). (the nice thing about the meromorphic functions are that they evade this.) 00:55:22 look at the Num instance for (->) defined by lambdabot <-- i think that was removed 00:55:41 * oerjan is in backscroll, in case it wasn't obvious 00:55:43 R I P 00:57:27 so it's a ring 01:00:04 and the successor function is nontrivial to write in church arithmetic [...] <-- nothing compared to predecessor 01:00:10 indeed 01:00:32 -!- variable has joined. 01:03:36 i did write deadfish in unlambda. it's probably not a good idea to square to much in that one. 01:03:41 *too 01:04:37 hm it's possibly you won't even notice until you try an o command (and possibly d) 01:04:41 *possible 01:04:56 what does predecessor look like? 01:04:58 or wait, maybe the 256 check makes it strict enough. 01:05:18 seems... difficult 01:07:52 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 01:07:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:08:02 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 01:08:35 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow). 01:14:13 So, I think I've come up with two English words that are both extremely common, but when you put one after the other, you get a phrase which is extremely rare. It probably just can't appear in any valid English sentence. 01:14:17 Spoiler: the phrase is "the and". 01:14:23 > 3^(3*3) 01:14:25 19683 01:15:15 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:15:31 yeah I agree the and in that phrase probably isn't valid english. :> 01:15:55 I disagree. the English is valid, and the the and moreso. 01:16:29 why can't it be the the and the and together making it invalid? 01:17:34 tswett: 'the "and"' might occur sometimes 01:17:50 /thə thʌ ənd thi: ænd/ 01:17:53 "and the" is definitely a lot more common 01:17:55 FreeFull: it certainly does. 01:18:12 ITC: irresponsible lack of quotation marks usage. BUT IS IT INVALID ENGLISH? (warning: you will be labeled a dirty prescriptivist if you disagree with me) 01:18:31 nothing wrong with not using quotation marks hth 01:18:44 kallisti: you can basically encode \n -> fst (n (\(x,y) -> (y,y+1)) (0,0)) 01:18:52 /θʌ/? 01:18:54 I assert that a phrase such as "the the and the and" is obviously not a real usage of the phrase "the and". 01:19:01 boily: doink 01:19:02 > (3^3)^3 01:19:03 19683 01:19:17 /ðə ðʌ ənd ði: ænd/ 01:19:28 it is an imaginary usage of the phrase within the imaginary plane of english phrases. 01:19:43 The complex plane? 01:19:52 nope 01:20:29 tswett: How about "the of"? 01:21:56 FreeFull: hmm. Yeah, that also seems illegal in all contexts. 01:22:18 presumably, you want a usage in which both the "the" and the "and" are used rather than mentioned. 01:22:22 the the and of the the of. 01:22:25 FreeFull: you can interpret "of" as a proper noun, at a stretch 01:23:07 sort-of like TURKEY BOMB, except with an of instead of a TURKEY BOMB 01:23:17 hm this doesn't work in norwegian because the word for "the" is also a pronoun. 01:23:33 Polish doesn't have a word for "the" 01:24:03 (or several, if you consider number/gender) 01:24:07 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:24:15 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:25:11 oerjan: I, you, he, she, the? 01:27:13 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 01:27:13 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:27:49 boily: "den/det" ~ it, "de" ~ they 01:28:27 also the "of" doesn't work if you're willing to use slightly archaic grammar 01:29:04 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:29:04 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:29:04 (you can then have prepositional phrases before the noun) 01:30:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 01:30:02 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:30:05 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 01:31:27 I realized something about DRM and shit. 01:31:30 notre fungot, qui êtes aux cieux, que ton baragouinage soit sanctifié, protège-nous de la grammaire norvégienne... 01:31:30 boily: the seventh bit set, and their abbreviations. the color ram which is used. the variable(s) in the character, and therefore most advanced. the 01:31:45 hppavilion[1]: What did you realise? 01:31:46 You know how you can't make a proprietary application in Python because then people can crack it? 01:32:20 Really, you can. Just make sure to bundle the code into an executable ahead of time 01:32:25 -!- boily has quit (Quit: THORN CHICKEN). 01:32:27 oerjan: oh I see so you pass a tuple to the church numeral. the wikipedia definition was confusing me 01:32:37 Any proprietay application will be broken someday; it's just a matter of time. 01:33:16 If you implement it in Python or something, it will be cracked more easily, but that doesn't matter; society has conditioned us not to pirate software like that and the ones who it didn't work on will pirate it anyway. 01:33:33 same with open source applications, we will all fall victim to the heat death of the universe. 01:33:37 (Of course, that doesn't mean it isn't /slow/, and if the application has trade secrets, then...) 01:34:06 Meh, proprietary is a legal thing, ease of access to source is a technical thing 01:34:39 Yep. 01:35:06 My point is that you might as well make a major application that you plan on selling in Python if speed isn't a concern. 01:35:16 doesn't the py2exe stuff just bundle the python bytecode interpreter and point it to your compiled scripts? 01:35:22 seems pretty easy to reverse engineer 01:35:36 kallisti: that's probably more efficient somehow, if my brain could grasp it 01:35:41 Stupid work, injecting virons into me. 01:36:42 kallisti: I know, it is easy to reverse engineer 01:36:54 My POINT is that it doesn't matter how easy it is to reverse engineer 01:37:16 oh, sure 01:37:30 It'll be broken eventually no matter what you do and the pirates are going to pirate it; but most of your buyers think piracy is evil and thus won't 01:38:17 I agree with that. I didn't get that from what you were saying though. sounded like you were saying that bundling an exe was "the solution" to Python being easy to crack. 01:38:22 Now, you file is still pretty big and it's slow, but if that doesn't matter then you might as well just use python. 01:39:03 kallisti: Ah, no. You do probably need to make it an exe (else it's too complicated for some people), but otherwise you're fine. 01:39:35 I used to really enjoy Python... when it was the only language I knew... when I was only two years or so into learning how to program... and singing guido's praises like a mindless drone with the other really bad Python programmers that make up the "Pythonic programmer community" 01:42:00 it's an okay language, I guess. it's hard for me to like it now. It's like Ive escaped some kind of secret brainwashing cult 01:42:52 programming languages. scary stuff. 01:43:22 Python doesn't suck. I think that's its primary strength. 01:43:28 yeah pretty much 01:43:46 could be worse. I could have drank the Scheme or Ruby kool-aid. I've heard that stuff is pretty potent. 01:45:11 I was fairly about Ruby for a while. 01:46:26 I think at some point in the programming experience you go from being resistant to other methodologies other than your favorite pet idea, to being able to adapt what you've learn from different tools when using others. 01:46:42 at least that's been my experience 01:48:33 I think it goes hand-in-hand with understanding that, what originally seemed like very divergent modes of expressing a computation are actually representing the same underlying ideas. 01:58:20 asyncronous while would be useful 01:58:49 Exit the while loop the MOMENT the next atomic operation finishes after the condition stops being "true" 02:00:03 -!- aretecode has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:02:59 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:03:31 -!- aretecode has joined. 02:21:08 -!- ent0nces has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:21:49 -!- ent0nces has joined. 03:04:17 -!- shikhin has joined. 03:10:03 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:12:30 hppavilion[1]: pretty sure there's something like that in the JS async library 03:12:41 Huh 03:14:27 hm maybe not 03:14:38 not exactly in the way you described 03:15:38 but most of the iteration functions in async.js allow you to simply break out of the loop by calling the continuation with an error result (or not calling it at all, though I'm not sure you'll get a result at that point) 03:16:05 https://github.com/caolan/async#each 03:16:08 like this one for example 03:16:42 looks like there's async.whilst 03:16:48 Repeatedly call fn, while test returns true. Calls callback when stopped, or an error occurs. 03:16:55 whilst(test, fn, callback) 03:16:59 test() - synchronous truth test to perform before each execution of fn 03:17:06 fn(callback) - A function which is called each time test passes. The function is passed a callback(err), which must be called once it has completed with an optional err argument. 03:17:11 callback(err) - A callback which is called after the test fails and repeated execution of fn has stopped. 03:17:54 I used async.js quite a bit when working on an express-based website. it's pretty handy. 03:18:19 async.during is similar but uses an async conditional 03:19:46 async.waterfall is pretty nice, though it's basically a continuation monad. javascript would be so much better with something like do notation. 03:22:08 apparently since 2010 wikipedia has disagreed with our wiki on what "turing tarpit" means https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turing_tarpit&diff=343527061&oldid=343523576 03:22:13 for all javascript's flaws, and as much as Python "doesn't suck", I can safely say that creating something like async.js in Python would be completely impractical 03:22:25 because of the lack of a multi-line lambda construct in Python 03:22:54 this is the biggest flaw of Python IMO 03:23:05 oerjan: verifiability, not truth ;-) 03:23:21 (that said, the sources may have been correct at the time, and we may have forcibly redefined the phrase from under them) 03:24:22 well this was spurred by this recent edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Esoteric_programming_language&action=edit&undoafter=681716919&undo=686669920 03:24:31 I think ais523 is right on this one 03:24:45 in other words, someone forced the article about esolangs to use the wp definition 03:24:54 a lot of stuff on wikipedia around that time had something of an "esolang bias" 03:25:05 probably as a result of contributors from this community 03:25:07 oh right, the Esolang AfDs 03:25:12 it's actually sort-of the other way round 03:25:29 Esolang was originally created in order to have somewhere to store all the esolang articles that Wikipedia wouldn't accept 03:26:27 original research lack of sources not notable etc 03:26:33 makes sense 03:26:49 but I think we're talking about different instances of time 03:26:57 2010 isn't exactly when the esolang wiki was made was it? 03:27:02 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ais523/esolangafd 03:27:05 the question is, what should that last link be saying 03:27:11 (that i gave) 03:27:35 it was happening often enough that I created a useful navbox to put on any future mass esolang nominations, so that people could easily find the previous cases 03:27:37 it makes no sense to include turing tarpits in the article if it isn't using our definition 03:28:18 friendly reminder that I originally created this when I was 15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t-give-a-fuckism and it has somehow survived 5 deletion nominations. 03:28:23 wikipedia is weird 03:30:12 oerjan: I don't know, WP-turing-tarpits tend to be esolangs too 03:30:26 metaspace wikipedia is pretty much anything-goes though 03:30:32 it's pretty hard to get deleted there 03:30:34 given that the implication is still that they're excessively low-level to the point of unusability, just that they don't have golfed specs 03:30:49 kallisti: I patrol the weird namespaces sometimes 03:30:58 it took me a year and two tries to get a corrupted page in TimedText: deleted 03:31:15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/TimedText:Depeche_mode_pipeline.ogg.en.srt_%282nd_nomination%29 03:31:30 one of the more ridiculous page names of pages I've created 03:31:41 I'm not familiar with that namespace 03:31:47 it's for subtitles 03:32:04 oh, must be new. or, well, newer than when I stopped caring about wikipedia editing. 03:32:12 yep, reasonably new 03:32:15 which was probably around 2008-2009 maybe? 03:32:20 maybe earlier 03:33:25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:The_prophet_wizard_of_the_crayon_cake your user page will never be as cool as mine. B) 03:35:38 my userpage used to have a clock written in pure wikimarkup 03:35:46 but I blanked it a while back when I retired 03:35:53 and now that MediaWiki supports Lua it'd be way less impressive 03:36:03 oh didn't know that 03:36:25 I wonder why they chose Lua 03:36:29 easy to sandbox? 03:39:13 IIRC the lua runtime has some pretty nice features to restrict IO 03:39:40 i use lua a lot because it is easy to embed and doesn't reek of ass 03:40:02 yeah Lua as a language is pretty solid. my primary complaint with Lua is the desert of standard libraries 03:40:14 ais523: however, there are few esolangs that are _not_ wp-turing-tarpits. 03:41:31 indeed 03:41:46 Funge-98 is an exception here 03:42:45 it's not hard to make a decent dynamically typed language. strong typing, arbitrarily complex anonymous functions, no weird type coercions (see: strong typing), extensible runtime based largely on some kind of hash/table structure. 03:42:50 yet somehow everyone fucks it up 03:45:18 I like the typing discipline in which everything is a string and strings that look like ints or floats are optimized internally, but it doesn't work so well for functions 03:45:50 if you go down that road you need to not overload your operators with 5 million different special cased coercion rules 03:46:01 something like perl where you have int-context operators vs string context operators 03:46:15 * oerjan makes some noise https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Esoteric_programming_language&diff=686759139&oldid=651792496 03:47:59 now that GHC has OverloadedLists you can actually make a pretty convincing javascript-like type coercion system in Haskell 03:48:00 kallisti: well such a language doesn't need coercion rules 03:48:07 it only has one type, thus no coercing 03:48:10 without having to call any conversion functions on syntactic literals 03:48:17 (it does, however, need rules for how things like addition work on strings that don't look like ints) 03:48:32 yeah that's really not any different from what I'm saying 03:48:49 you've just decided to say "there aren't types. there's just operators that interpret the data different in different contexts" 03:48:51 which is basically weak typing 03:49:45 kallisti: well, there's a huge difference between languages like Javascript, in which 1 !== "1" 03:49:49 I still want to see a Topology-Oriented Fungeoid 03:50:00 and Tcl, in which the difference between JS-== and JS-=== isn't even meaningful 03:50:07 And I still don't understand topology. Anyone have any suggestions? 03:50:13 I like Tcl-style languages and dislike JS-style languages 03:50:27 I'm pretty sure no one actually likes javascript weak typing 03:50:53 Weak typing is evil. Strong typing where you can define conversions is where it's at. 03:51:16 perl manages to have a sensible weak typing convention actually 03:51:26 eq is string equality and == is integer equality 03:51:30 . is concatenation and + is addition 03:51:34 Ew. 03:51:36 rather than overloading everything into == and + 03:51:40 see: javascript 03:51:40 right, Perl is mostly emulating the "everything is a string" model 03:51:50 but then it has a few corner cases because it's Perl 03:51:50 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:51:53 and then they added references 03:52:09 I prefer Python. Of course. xD. 03:52:47 I've been enjoying my Lua hacking while working on dota 2 mods actually 03:52:48 Someone should change the front page to Thue or Emmental or something. Then we'd get too many derivatives of a different language instead. 03:53:34 the only problems I have with Lua is lack of good libraries (which I think I mentioned), and lack of a decent module system. only one of those is really a problem with the language, and a sensible module system could easily be added to it (something like require.js or node.js module system for example) 03:53:36 but no one has done it yet. 03:54:08 hppavilion[1]: I think the plan was to change it to Funciton, but nobody's written a blurb for it 03:54:11 hppavilion[1]: it's already been Emmental 03:54:20 Oh.' 03:54:29 oh yeah lack of assignment-as-expression is pretty annoying ,but not the end of the world 03:54:40 and nothing like perl's // 03:54:52 Right, right. I like assignment-as-expression, even though I've never used it. 03:54:54 strangely enough, nobody's nominated Thue yet 03:55:00 most of my code in Lua is literally just getting stuff from tables then checking for nil, then doing stuff with the table 03:55:06 I NOMINATE THUE! 03:55:07 I NOMINATE THUE! 03:55:07 I NOMINATE THUE! 03:55:08 when it would be more sensible to have a built-in construct to do it 03:55:18 hppavilion[1]: there's a page to put nominations hth 03:55:23 Oh. 03:55:33 you can only nominate once, though 03:55:35 Where? 03:55:38 the only thing we lack is a page for people to suggest blurbs 03:55:45 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Featured_languages/Candidates 03:55:54 err, until the language gets accepted 03:55:57 we were planning to change it more often 03:55:58 give Lua a decent module system, or give Python multi-line lambdas. and I'd be happy with that. 03:56:03 but all the admins are too busy 03:56:18 Meh, I think I responded to spam 03:56:26 uh oh 03:56:49 Hopefully the worst that could happen is I made a fool of myself and/or signed up for more spam 03:57:21 It was from some gmail address telling me to connect to someone with the same name. I just said "Who is this?", but the reply-to was different 03:57:28 [wiki] [[Featured languages/Candidates]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44815 * Hppavilion1 * (+129) Attempted to nominate a language. May have instead turned Amsterdam into smoldering ruins. 03:57:53 [wiki] [[Featured languages/Candidates]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44816&oldid=44815 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Fixed (?) formatting 03:58:04 I should really learn how wikimarkup works. 03:58:10 Thue is a good nom, anyway 03:59:14 What happens next? 03:59:38 at the current rate of progress, heat death hth 03:59:39 -!- shikhin has joined. 04:00:21 you need to persuade one of the admins to write a blurb for a featured article and get it onsite 04:00:28 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Placement is awesome xD 04:00:30 and we're all busy, lazy or both (except possibly fizzie) 04:00:34 Oh no. 04:01:01 lol placement 04:01:38 I need to think of a good language for a name I just thought of... 04:02:42 [wiki] [[Kleinfunge]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44817 * Hppavilion1 * (+108) Reserved Page 04:03:10 one day humans will adapt to a zero entropy environment 04:03:13 (Not that language) 04:03:14 and heat death will be irrelevant 04:03:18 True fact. 04:03:18 I'm not sure lahey-lines really work on a klein bottle 04:03:39 ais523: I was just naming the Topoligical Funge 04:03:53 It has nothing to do with klein bottles, really. 04:03:58 so I assume it's a -93 derivative? (presumably you just swap both x and y coordinates when wrapping from one side to the other?) 04:03:59 ah right 04:04:41 AFK 04:07:11 ais523: btw using === as an example of javascripts type system is kind of pointless because it's pretty much the only operator that does explicit strong typing 04:07:21 kallisti: * 04:07:22 + 04:07:37 admittedly I can't think of others offhand but it wouldn't surprise me 04:07:49 IIRC == isn't even transitive 04:07:59 I'm pretty sure + is not strongly typed because it coerces stuff 04:08:15 kallisti: "1" + "2" versus 1 + 2 04:08:24 it doesn't coerce consistently, thus it's aware of argument types 04:08:36 yes but 1 + "1" is "11" 04:08:40 so not 100% strongly typed, but not 100% weakly typed either 04:09:06 which is my point, JavaScript isn't sufficiently weakly typed to work as a weakly typed language 04:09:07 is that even a requirement of weak typing? 04:09:14 kallisti: they're extremes 04:09:14 to be unaware of argument types? 04:09:27 in 100% weak typing, types don't even exist really 04:09:44 you only have one sort of data and talking about what "type" it is is meaningless, it just self-coerces 04:09:55 *datum, I guess 04:10:29 I guess the strongest possible typing is in languages like OCaml, where you can't even add two floats with the same operator you use to add two ints 04:11:22 well I wouldn't say that polymorphism removes strong typedness 04:11:23 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 04:11:34 weak typing is a really ambiguous concept though 04:11:58 Crud, Yahoo Pipes is shut down 04:12:30 kallisti: polymorphism doesn't, it can only exist in the presence of at least moderately strong typing though 04:12:43 otherwise you don't have enough of a type to be polymorphic /on/ 04:12:54 I guess polymorphism does kind of imply some form of weak typing. with typeclasses in Haskell you can completely emulate every minute detail of a perl or javascript-esque type system 04:13:18 but in doing so you basically work with only one type, which is what I think weak typing is all about really, a kind of polymorphic universal type 04:13:48 Yahoo pipes seemed neat, but I never figured out how to make it loop back on itself and filter well enough to really mess with it. 04:14:16 kallisti: right 04:15:06 Would have been fun to throw together an emulator in it, or kind of recursive Twitter chatbot. 04:15:35 So is there some way I can easily encode Kleinfunge's topology? 04:15:45 Like, how a "straight" line moves, for example? 04:15:54 And how wrapping works? 04:16:35 Yes. 04:16:36 (I'll probably make them two separate commands, l and w perhaps) 04:16:51 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_bottle Look at the section on construction. 04:17:18 -!- JesseH has joined. 04:17:41 It's just a torus with one axis mirrored along the wraparound edge. 04:18:40 I was thinking of what would make the most sense for a weakly typed Haskell environment 04:18:47 and I think it's basically just the Convertible typeclass 04:18:47