←2015-10-21 2015-10-22 2015-10-23→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:02:40 <Phantom_Hoover> @src
00:02:40 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
00:02:53 <Phantom_Hoover> @src id
00:02:53 <lambdabot> id x = x
00:03:00 <Phantom_Hoover> magic?
00:03:09 <oerjan> nope
00:03:40 <boily> magic.
00:03:42 <Phantom_Hoover> that was sarcastic oerjan
00:04:18 <oerjan> ooooh
00:05:35 <\oren\> imback
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00:11:06 <boily> \hellobackren\
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00:26:04 <tswett> @src map
00:26:04 <lambdabot> map _ [] = []
00:26:04 <lambdabot> map f (x:xs) = f x : map f xs
00:26:09 <tswett> :t map
00:26:11 <lambdabot> (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
00:26:15 <tswett> Hmmm.
00:26:28 <tswett> > map (+21) (Just 5)
00:26:29 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[b]’ with actual type ‘Maybe Integer’
00:26:29 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘map’, namely ‘(Just 5)’
00:26:29 <lambdabot> In the expression: map (+ 21) (Just 5)
00:26:34 <tswett> Hmmmmm.
00:30:38 <fizzie> > fmap (+21) (Just 5)
00:30:39 <lambdabot> Just 26
00:31:16 <fizzie> map is very list-oriented.
00:33:53 <fizzie> There's @src and there's @instances, but I guess there's no @src-of-instance.
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00:49:31 <boily> shun the Royal Jelly and its acid blobs.
00:49:49 <Ox0dea> It is known.
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00:51:50 <boily> Ox0dea: do you DCSS?
00:52:24 <Ox0dea> boily: I don't, sorry.
00:55:42 <oerjan> @src Monad Maybe
00:55:42 <lambdabot> Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over.
00:55:49 <oerjan> @src Maybe Monad
00:55:49 <lambdabot> Source not found. There are some things that I just don't know.
00:55:58 <oerjan> fizzie: ... there used to be
00:56:08 <oerjan> @src Monad (->)
00:56:08 <lambdabot> Source not found. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
00:56:11 <oerjan> @src Monad ->
00:56:12 <lambdabot> Source not found. Sorry.
00:56:15 <oerjan> @src Monad
00:56:16 <lambdabot> class Monad m where
00:56:16 <lambdabot> (>>=) :: forall a b. m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
00:56:16 <lambdabot> (>>) :: forall a b. m a -> m b -> m b
00:56:16 <lambdabot> return :: a -> m a
00:56:16 <lambdabot> fail :: String -> m a
00:56:27 <oerjan> @src Monad []
00:56:27 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just try something else.
00:56:58 <oerjan> @ask int-e What happened to @src giving instance definitions, i'm _sure_ it used to have some...
00:56:58 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:59:34 <boily> @src something-that-doesnt-exist-in-lambdies-db
00:59:34 <lambdabot> Source not found. My brain just exploded
00:59:37 <boily> @src something-that-doesnt-exist-in-lambdies-db
00:59:37 <lambdabot> Source not found. Sorry.
00:59:38 <boily> @src something-that-doesnt-exist-in-lambdies-db
00:59:38 <lambdabot> Source not found. I am sorry.
00:59:40 <boily> @src something-that-doesnt-exist-in-lambdies-db
00:59:40 <lambdabot> Source not found. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
00:59:50 <boily> hehehehehehe
01:01:12 <shachaf> @src [] (>>=)
01:01:12 <lambdabot> xs >>= f = concatMap f xs
01:01:13 <shachaf> hth
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01:01:56 <oerjan> oooh
01:02:04 <oerjan> @src Maybe (>>=)
01:02:04 <lambdabot> (Just x) >>= k = k x
01:02:04 <lambdabot> Nothing >>= _ = Nothing
01:02:12 <fizzie> @src Maybe fmap
01:02:12 <lambdabot> fmap _ Nothing = Nothing
01:02:12 <lambdabot> fmap f (Just a) = Just (f a)
01:02:12 <oerjan> @tell int-e oops, false alarm
01:02:12 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:02:38 <boily> @src ZipList Monad
01:02:39 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe if you used more than just two fingers...
01:02:53 * boily thwacks lambdie
01:03:08 <oerjan> @src ZipList (<*>)
01:03:08 <lambdabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
01:03:31 <shachaf> perhaps @src predates ZipList hth
01:03:40 <oerjan> @src is pretty old-fashioned and doesn't believe in those new-fangled Applicatives.
01:03:44 <oerjan> @src Applicative
01:03:44 <lambdabot> class Functor f => Applicative f where
01:03:44 <lambdabot> pure :: a -> f a
01:03:44 <lambdabot> (<*>) :: f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
01:03:54 <oerjan> much.
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01:06:31 <Ox0dea> "Nothing is just Nothing." -- Arya of House Peyton-Jones
01:08:08 <boily> Ox0dea: I shall quote you on that wisdomically.
01:08:32 <boily> oerjan: speaking of wisdom, you `learned an invention that isn't a tanebvention.
01:08:39 <boily> that is disturbing.
01:08:53 <oerjan> i think i just edited that
01:09:04 <shachaf> `` egrep -r '[^b] invented' wisdom
01:09:05 <HackEgo> wisdom/cpressey:cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mousse. \ wisdom/twoducks:TwoDucks programming language was invented in 2023. \ wisdom/al gore:Al Gore invented the algorithm. \ wisdom/algorithm:Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algo
01:09:32 <boily> cpressey is grandfathered in.
01:09:51 <oerjan> because he's like, the grandfather of esolangs?
01:10:07 <boily> he invented the esolang after all.
01:10:21 <Ox0dea> Did he really?
01:10:28 <Ox0dea> Doesn't that belong to the FALSE guy?
01:11:15 <shachaf> `` egrep -r '[^b] invented' wisdom | tail -n+5
01:11:17 <HackEgo> wisdom/hexchat:Hexchat is a variant of Smalltalk invented in Hexham. \ wisdom/go:Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia. \ wisdom/universe:The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. \ wisdom/nitia:nitia is the inventor of all things. The
01:11:55 <shachaf> `? nitia
01:11:57 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
01:12:37 * boily waves “Those aren't the notanebventions you aren't not looking for, eh”
01:12:40 <shachaf> so many nontanebventions
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01:39:39 <tswett> `? category
01:39:40 <HackEgo> A category is just a category object in the category of classes.
01:39:55 <tswett> `culprits wisdom/category
01:39:59 <HackEgo> tswett int-e ais523 shachaf elliott oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull oerjan oerjan elliott oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
01:41:31 <tswett> `? category theory
01:41:33 <HackEgo> In category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories.
01:42:59 <oerjan> <fizzie> I was expecting it to randomly select a subset of countries. <-- :(
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01:45:38 <tswett> `le/rn category/A category is an enriched category where the enriching category is the category of classes.
01:45:42 <HackEgo> Learned «category»
01:45:53 <tswett> `? monoid
01:45:54 <HackEgo> Monoids are just the easy version of categories with a single object.
01:46:06 <tswett> `? monoids
01:46:07 <HackEgo> Monoids are just the easy version of categories with a single object.
01:46:10 <tswett> Hmm.
01:46:24 <tswett> `file wisdom/monoids
01:46:25 <HackEgo> wisdom/monoids: ERROR: cannot open `wisdom/monoids' (No such file or directory)
01:46:31 <tswett> `? monoides
01:46:32 <HackEgo> monoides? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:46:39 <shachaf> !
01:46:44 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/monoids
01:46:46 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 shachaf elliott shachaf
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01:47:12 <shachaf> that sentence makes no sense
01:47:18 <tswett> This is true.
01:47:26 <shachaf> "categories with a single object" isn't the thing that monoids are the easy version of
01:47:27 <tswett> I'm gonna fix it.
01:48:02 <shachaf> oerjan: this is like the algorithm thing
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01:48:12 <shachaf> you can't just mix two wisdoms and hope for an improved combined wisdom
01:48:54 <ais523> `wisdom
01:48:55 <HackEgo> itidus20/itidus20's entry has been censored.
01:49:01 <ais523> `wisdom
01:49:03 <HackEgo> substructural typing/Not to be confused with structural subtyping.
01:49:14 <ais523> hmm, how to combine those
01:49:39 <ais523> "itidus20/itidus20 was confused about structural subtyping, but [CENSORED]"
01:49:47 <ais523> it's not that funny but neither were the originals
01:49:57 <tswett> `le/rn Monoids are just the easy version of categories. Kids these days don't know how easy they've got it... in my day, two-sorted algebraic structures were the only kind we had, and we LIKED it!
01:49:58 <HackEgo> No output.
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01:50:13 <shachaf> that's even worse
01:50:25 <tswett> Your turn.
01:50:34 <tswett> By the way, what's your opinion on this?
01:50:35 <tswett> `? rust
01:50:36 <HackEgo> Rust is C++ as designed by the makers of Haskell.
01:50:46 <shachaf> i was happy with the way it was
01:51:04 <tswett> You preferred wisdom/monoid immediately before I changed it just now?
01:51:32 <shachaf> I preferred it before oerjan merged them.
01:51:47 <shachaf> A month ago, apparently.
01:52:34 <tswett> Well then.
01:52:48 <tswett> `le/rn monoid/A monoid is the easy version of a category.
01:52:51 <HackEgo> Learned «monoid»
01:52:57 <tswett> `le/rn monoids/Monoids are categories with single objects.
01:53:00 <HackEgo> Learned «monoids»
01:53:06 <tswett> Rather.
01:53:10 <tswett> `le/rn monoids/Monoids are just categories with single objects.
01:53:13 <HackEgo> Learned «monoids»
01:53:20 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
01:53:28 <shachaf> i was hoping to get some input from oerjan
01:53:35 <shachaf> not just to mess his thing up
01:53:41 <shachaf> we gotta form a committee
01:54:21 <tswett> `mkcommittee
01:54:22 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mkcommittee: not found
01:54:34 <tswett> What? What sort of Unix-like environment doesn't have mkcommittee?
01:54:56 <tswett> This isn't very welcoming. I'm feeling underwelcomed.
01:55:05 <tswett> I need some way to compensate for this feeling of underwelcome.
01:55:10 <tswett> `autowelcome on
01:55:11 <HackEgo> Autowelcome enabled.
01:55:20 <tswett> Yes. Yes. Most wonderful.
01:55:27 <ais523> `cat bin/autowelcome
01:55:28 <HackEgo> ​[ "$1" == "on" ] && echo 'Autowelcome enabled.' || echo 'Autowelcome disabled.'
01:55:34 <ais523> hmm
01:55:42 <ais523> that script looks a lot like it doesn't do anything but print a message
01:56:49 <oerjan> `` ls wisdom/Mon*
01:56:50 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/Mon*: No such file or directory
01:56:55 <oerjan> `` ls wisdom/mon*
01:56:56 <HackEgo> wisdom/monad \ wisdom/monads \ wisdom/monoid \ wisdom/monoidal category \ wisdom/monoids \ wisdom/monqy
01:57:03 <shachaf> oerjan: i already checked, it's not there hth
01:57:28 <oerjan> ah.
01:57:28 <shachaf> otherwise it would've printed "learnt «foo»" or something
01:57:34 <oerjan> fancy
01:58:22 <oerjan> ais523: _sometimes_ you're a bit captain obvious hth
01:58:57 <oerjan> wait that sounded all wrong.
02:00:15 <oerjan> ais523: i'm sure it would do something if it were possible to get HackEgo to do that something.
02:00:21 <oerjan> which it isn't.
02:01:05 <oerjan> `cat bin/le/rn
02:01:06 <HackEgo> cat: bin/le/rn: No such file or directory
02:01:25 <oerjan> wait, how does that even work.
02:01:44 <oerjan> `` ls bin/le*
02:01:45 <HackEgo> bin/learn \ bin/learn_append \ bin/learn_append2
02:01:50 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAA
02:02:03 <oerjan> hm...
02:02:04 <shachaf> MWAHAHAHA
02:02:28 <oerjan> oh hm
02:02:32 <oerjan> `` ls le/rn
02:02:33 <HackEgo> le/rn
02:02:38 <oerjan> `cat le/rn
02:02:39 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ [[ "$1" = */* ]] || exit \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | cut -d / -f 1) \ [ -z "$topic" ] && exit 1 \ value=$(echo "$1" | cut -d / -f 2-) \ echo "$value" > wisdom/"$topic" && echo "Learned «$topic»"
02:02:45 <shachaf> `` ls -l le/rn
02:02:47 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 17 Jun 5 04:35 le/rn -> ../bin/slashlearn
02:03:00 <shachaf> mk is better
02:03:02 <shachaf> `` cat bin/mk
02:03:03 <HackEgo> ​[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
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02:08:37 <ais523> is that obfuscated bash?
02:08:41 <oerjan> `mk wisdom/`mk//Everything's better with `mk.
02:08:43 <HackEgo> wisdom/`mk
02:09:23 <oerjan> ais523: i don't see what's obfuscated about it
02:09:26 <ais523> it uses a ton of operators that are rarely used, and is very punctuation-heavy as a result
02:09:44 <ais523> even something like "?*//*" severely strains my mental parser
02:09:50 <oerjan> heh
02:10:16 <oerjan> i would not write such a thing in bash, but i don't know if there's a better way if you do
02:10:18 <shachaf> ais523: All I wanted to do was split a string on the first occurrence of //
02:10:48 <ais523> what's the question mark for?
02:11:35 <oerjan> `mk /////////////
02:11:36 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/mk: line 1: : No such file or directory
02:11:38 <shachaf> Making sure the first part isn't empty.
02:11:54 <oerjan> shachaf: i found a loophole in that hth
02:11:55 <shachaf> As oerjan points out, it doesn't work very well.
02:12:08 <shachaf> improvements are welcome twh
02:12:23 <oerjan> i don't think you can use the loophole for anything, though
02:12:40 <shachaf> I don't think the check is even strictly necessary.
02:12:56 <shachaf> `` echo "blah" > ""; echo $?
02:12:57 <HackEgo> bash: : No such file or directory \ 1
02:13:32 <oerjan> istr you discussed empty filenames the other day, and POSIX forbids them
02:14:19 <shachaf> idrt
02:14:24 <shachaf> idnrt, rather
02:14:37 * oerjan somehow wants a better pronoun there. something that means, "we, but not me, and possibly not you (singular) either"
02:14:48 <shachaf> ah
02:14:59 <shachaf> y'all?
02:15:06 <oerjan> maybe
02:15:16 <oerjan> exclusive y'all :P
02:15:37 <shachaf> it's not exclusive, is it?
02:16:53 <oerjan> y'all includes all
02:17:30 <shachaf> we do?
02:18:05 <oerjan> no, it does hth
02:19:43 <shachaf> in another channel there was a swatworthy moment discussing the phrase "all that glitters is not gold"
02:19:49 <shachaf> it's a pity you weren't there
02:20:16 <oerjan> a missed golden opportunity, for sure
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03:04:24 <hppavilion[1]> POSTSCRIPT ENGLISH
03:06:02 <hppavilion[1]> face man 's kick;
03:06:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Kick man's face)
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03:17:55 <\oren\> RRRRR
03:18:25 <\oren\> can people quiet down and stop having their lovers quarrel in the allwy behind my house
03:19:30 <\oren\> I opened the window and yelled "Hello! Can You quiet down out there!"
03:21:53 <\oren\> Oh god damn it stop whimpering and shrieking
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03:31:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J--]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44822&oldid=44573 * Phase * (-78) That branch was merged
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05:25:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rail]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44823&oldid=42119 * 106.219.33.0 * (+4) /* More examples */
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09:10:19 <ais523> wow is github's UI for merge commits terrible, it seems to show all the content that was being merged in even if the merge itself was lawful good (i.e. no conflicts anywhere)
09:11:41 <Jafet> ...I don't think that's what they mean by "sequence alignment"
09:13:20 <ais523> well isn't "evil merge" an established git phrase? I took the opposite, then intensified it
09:13:39 <ais523> (I assume a merge with conflicts, in which the merge-conflict-fixing is obvious and benign, would be chaotic good)
09:14:39 <Jafet> Would that mean that lawful evil merges are the worst (no conflicts, but your code breaks)
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09:15:40 <ais523> ooh I like that
09:15:57 <ais523> although an "evil merge" normally refers to introducing something unrelated in a merge commit
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09:17:49 <ais523> presumably a true neutral commit is when you actually cherry-picked, rather than merging, and had to heavily modify the code to get it to fit with the codebase
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09:22:24 <Taneb> ais523: what would chaotic and lawful neutral be?
09:23:02 <ais523> lawful neutral is an extra commit just after the merge, that does nothing but delete trailing whitespace
09:23:10 <ais523> not sure about CN offhand
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09:54:55 <fizzie> "Deconstructed Salad-Smoked Salmon" what does that even mean
09:55:38 <fizzie> Ohh, it's "Deconstructed salad: smoked salmon, something else, more stuff."
09:56:01 <fizzie> I still don't know exactly what it means, but at least it's more plausible.
09:58:52 <ais523> clearly you set the salad on fire and use it to smoke the salmon
09:59:14 <ais523> (yesterday I had a meal I haven't had in over 10 years: chicken mayo and lettuice toastie)
09:59:29 <ais523> (I ordered it by mistake once and discovered I rather liked it, despite the fact that people rarely toast lettuice)
09:59:42 <ais523> the hard part was convincing the chef to cook it
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10:26:52 <fizzie> A deconstructed salad was just a thing where you have the ingredients for a salad in different containers.
10:27:17 <fizzie> Although I have a feeling they never were in a salad together at any point in time.
10:27:50 <ais523> idea: a salad sorting machine, which you put a salad in and it sorts out the individual ingredients
10:28:05 <ais523> useful if you have a salad that contains something you can't eat or don't like, but which you otherwise want to eat
10:28:13 <ais523> (you can subsequently shuffle the desired ingredients back together)
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10:29:13 <fizzie> Might be a challenging build if it needs to handle more liquid ingredients.
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10:44:16 <b_jonas> ais523: salad sorter: http://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=944
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11:07:03 <boily> `mk
11:07:04 <HackEgo> No output.
11:07:10 <boily> `` cat bin/mk
11:07:12 <HackEgo> ​[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
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11:26:24 <boily> @metar FTTJ
11:26:25 <lambdabot> FTTJ 221100Z 07008KT 030V110 CAVOK 38/03 Q1010 NOSIG
11:27:14 <boily> @metar FEFF
11:27:15 <lambdabot> FEFF 221100Z VRB02KT 8000 SCT026 32/22 Q1011 NOSIG
11:27:38 <boily> warmth, why must you be so far away...
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11:43:10 <fizzie> >30? That's crazy-talk.
11:43:18 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
11:43:18 <lambdabot> EGLL 221120Z AUTO 29010KT 9999 OVC031 14/07 Q1017
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13:15:14 <quintopia> cold, fizzie?
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13:17:22 <quintopia> apparently that 30+ was africa? boily must be cold too
13:18:54 <int-e> @metar lowi
13:18:55 <lambdabot> LOWI 221250Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW060 12/02 Q1016 NOSIG
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14:06:00 <Deewiant> https://www.reddit.com/r/befunge/ was this necessary, I wonder
14:08:18 -!- MDream has joined.
14:12:57 <int-e> no, reddit wasn't necessary
14:13:36 <int-e> but it's a minor nuisance compared to facebook and twitter ;)
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14:29:16 <quintopia> who is okflo
14:31:40 <oerjan> quintopia: someone close to int-e
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14:41:13 <mroman> Does someone have a vServer with CGI Support :)?
14:42:27 <mroman> @tell mauris: Yeah en is different than pythons [::a], but I just commented on that codegolf post and included some workarounds
14:42:27 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
14:43:53 <mroman> did it post that to mauris or mauris:?
14:43:58 <mroman> @tell mauris Yeah en is different than pythons [::a], but I just commented on that codegolf post and included some workarounds
14:43:58 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
14:44:01 <mroman> just to be sure :D
14:44:37 <mroman> @tell mauris There's 7mo14.+?i1+] but I found a better way today which is by using co: 100ro7co)-]
14:44:37 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
14:45:07 <mroman> @tell mauris generally slicing as in [::a] can be done by doing a co)-]
14:45:07 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
14:46:59 <int-e> how can you have a vserver without cgi support?
14:47:19 <int-e> I mean, aren't you supposed to be root on those things?
14:47:59 <mroman> I don't have a vServer anymore I'm afraid.
14:48:47 <mroman> and 7bc0R@?*15.+?i is probably my worst attempt at the problem :D
14:51:20 <int-e> anyway, what are you trying to do?
14:51:44 <mroman> @tell mauris Well actually 1{7?+}14!C is even shorter. (If you output the numbers)
14:51:45 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
14:51:56 <mroman> int-e: Trying to host the burlesque online shell again :D
14:52:08 <mroman> so people can use Burlesque again without installing it locally
14:52:35 <mroman> and I don't think haskell2javascript is advanced enough for that to work
14:52:59 <mroman> so the easiest option is through CGI like I did in the past.
14:53:11 <oerjan> are you sure, i hear ghcjs is pretty impressive these days
14:53:31 <mroman> No, I just haven't heard any good things about it lately
14:53:44 <quintopia> what was that language someone made that was based on programming by example
14:53:54 <quintopia> oh nvm
14:53:56 <quintopia> found it
14:54:04 <int-e> mroman: I guess I could give you an account on my cloud at coast server... I'm not using it for anything useful anyway
14:54:21 <int-e> (this one, http://104.167.104.168/)
14:54:23 <mroman> also
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14:54:38 <mroman> doesn't ghcjs require some backend server running as well?
14:54:44 <mroman> like node.js or something?
14:54:57 <oerjan> i don't know how it works
14:55:05 <mroman> yeah me neither :(
14:55:23 <oerjan> except that it supports most of ghc haskell and can even install cabal packages
14:55:24 <mroman> int-e: I guess that could be awesome.
14:55:40 <mroman> can you set limits on that account?
14:55:44 <mroman> like ram/cpu usage
14:55:54 <mroman> because somebody could easily try to run a script that consumes 4GB of memory ;)
14:56:10 <mroman> I had configured limits through apache
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14:56:36 <int-e> shouldn't be hard
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14:58:56 <mroman> Well that depends :)
14:59:32 <mroman> If you give me a www-home-dir (such as host/~username/cgi-bin) then you need to make sure that those programs in cgi-bin aren't run under the user the webserver runs under
14:59:35 <fizzie> int-e: Ah, the NoCloudAtAnyCost provider.
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15:00:15 <int-e> fizzie: is hackego still running on one of those?
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15:03:25 <mroman> I can't even access error logs on my server
15:03:30 <mroman> in case I mess up a .htacess or something
15:03:32 <mroman> :D
15:03:36 <mroman> I have so fucking limited access :(
15:04:07 <fizzie> int-e: Yes.
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15:08:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RubE On Conveyor Belts]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44824&oldid=38332 * 152.26.69.43 * (+48) /* Interpreter source code */
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16:33:41 <hppavilion[1]> Infix stack-based language
16:33:50 <hppavilion[1]> The SYA is run on the source prior to execution
16:35:14 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Hi?
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16:37:00 <hppavilion[1]> Hi aretecode!
16:40:34 <hppavilion[1]> Do Stack-Oriented Languages have a `while` loop?
16:41:06 <b_jonas> argh
16:41:11 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: hello
16:41:22 <hppavilion[1]> :)
16:41:37 <hppavilion[1]> How's it going?
16:44:40 <MDream> They don't need too, but neither do register-oriented languages.
16:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> Huh
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16:46:16 <MDream> What I mean is, what stack-based alnguage do you mean specifically?
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16:46:22 <hppavilion[1]> I always assumed WHILE (or a similar counterpart) was pretty much necessary for TCness, as a TM can not halt (as opposed to cannot halt)
16:46:31 <b_jonas> argh. I'm blaming the compiler now.
16:46:31 <MDude> I know stack languages can have loops.
16:46:43 <hppavilion[1]> They definitely have FOR loops; that's easy
16:47:00 <hppavilion[1]> They pop a couple variables and an anonymous function
16:47:09 <hppavilion[1]> (or nonymous function if the language allows)
16:47:25 <MDude> A FOR loop can be seen as a while loop in which the loop control variable is only modified when ti is checked.
16:47:38 <hppavilion[1]> Oh yeah!
16:48:09 <hppavilion[1]> You can do something like for(i=0;False;i++;) {...}
16:48:14 <hppavilion[1]> (I think that works)
16:48:39 <hppavilion[1]> (The second argument to for can be any boolean value or thing returning a boolean value, if it's designed correctly)
16:48:43 <MDude> The only stack-ased language I've learned to any great extent is IBNIZ.
16:49:54 <MDude> I don't know wbout non-esoteric ones as much, but I'm pretty sure Forth has while loops.
16:49:57 <MDude> And Factor.
16:51:51 <MDude> You can also get TCness with gotos, subtroutines, or functions.
16:52:23 <MDude> Though the first one is seen as undesired outside of assembly coding.
16:54:12 <hppavilion[1]> I think that my design for Wbye could support WHILE loops
16:54:22 <hppavilion[1]> And k-loops
16:54:42 <hppavilion[1]> What is the heirarchy of control flow structures?
16:54:57 <hppavilion[1]> At the root, the primitives, is GOTO-IF
16:55:02 <myname> hppavilion[1]: first: False actually doesn't make sense. second: nothingnis also valid in most languages
16:55:20 <hppavilion[1]> myname: How does it not make sense?
16:55:28 <hppavilion[1]> Oh right!
16:55:33 <hppavilion[1]> It should be `True`!
16:55:41 <myname> yeah
16:55:42 <hppavilion[1]> Forgot how that kind of for-loop works xD
16:55:53 <hppavilion[1]> Python, sadly, only supports foreach
16:56:11 <myname> but for(;;) is a valid endless loop most of the time
16:56:21 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I knew that xD
16:56:38 <hppavilion[1]> So at the bottom is goto-if, upon which we get k-loops and while-loops, and upon that is for, and upon that is foreach.
16:56:42 <hppavilion[1]> That's my heirarchy
16:56:46 <myname> so why not for(i=0;;i++)
16:56:56 <hppavilion[1]> More of a linked list than a heirarchy
16:57:03 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Fair enough. I'm not very good at C.
16:57:04 <hppavilion[1]> GTG
16:57:25 <MDude> for(i=0;;i++) would take up a whole variable for no reason.
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16:57:46 <myname> yeah, so just (;;) is fine
16:57:48 <MDude> If numbers are bignum by default, it's even an unbounded memory leak.
16:58:02 <hppavilion[1]> I'm back, for a short time
16:58:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Classes just started for me)
16:58:47 <fizzie> If i is signed, for(i=0;;i++); is undefined.
16:58:48 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Oh! I know why I did that!
16:59:04 <hppavilion[1]> I was thinking in stack-based, where you can't tell it how many variables it gets, it just pops a fixed number
16:59:17 <hppavilion[1]> s/variables/arguments/
16:59:31 <hppavilion[1]> Because I was discussing `while` in an SBL.
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16:59:46 <hppavilion[1]> I still got the `False` wrong, though.
17:00:37 <MDude> Stack based languages use a secondary stack to manage loops.
17:01:00 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: But a Stack-based FOR loop still gets its arguments from the main stack, iirc
17:01:04 <MDude> Or they useone for FOR loops anyway.
17:01:14 <MDude> True
17:01:31 <hppavilion[1]> OK. That's why I wrote it with all the extra arguments then.
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17:02:11 <fizzie> Forth has "uncounted" loops -- `BEGIN ... test WHILE ... REPEAT`, `BEGIN ... test UNTIL` and `BEGIN ... AGAIN` -- and counted loops -- `limit start DO ... LOOP`.
17:02:49 <fizzie> Where ... is for loop body, and 'test' something that's supposed to leave a flag on the stack on whether to continue or not.
17:02:56 <MDude> I was confused earlier because there's a stack based programming language named FALSE which does in fact make sense.
17:06:31 <mroman> well
17:06:41 <mroman> enough burlesque'ing on codegolf.stackexchange.com for today
17:07:18 <mroman> MDude: they don't.
17:07:21 <mroman> well... maybe some do
17:07:36 <mroman> but the ones I know use the same stack for that.
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17:08:06 <mroman> bye
17:08:25 <fizzie> The Forth control flow stack is "logically" a separate stack, but it's allowed to be the same stack as the data stack.
17:08:34 <fizzie> Gforth at least does it that way.
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17:10:22 <Taneb> How does that work
17:13:07 <fizzie> By... pushing a thing on the data stack?
17:13:57 <Taneb> So you can pop the return location?
17:15:50 <fizzie> No, that would be the return stack.
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17:17:22 <Taneb> Ah
17:18:27 <fizzie> Although I might have misremembered, maybe it was actually the return stack where gforth puts the loop control structures.
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17:18:54 <fizzie> "ANS Forth permits and supports using control structures in a non-nested way. Information about incomplete control structures is stored on the control-flow stack. This stack may be implemented on the Forth data stack, and this is what we have done in Gforth."
17:19:27 <fizzie> Well, that seems to be quite definite. But my empirical tests did not make it look like that's the case.
17:20:29 <fizzie> It certainly looks like it's the return stack they're using.
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17:21:51 <fizzie> But the manual's stack effect descriptors claim that it's the data stack. Meh, whatever.
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17:58:34 <izabera> it's nice that tlmgr update --all only updates the packages but not tlmgr itself
17:58:40 <izabera> an you need --self
17:59:10 <izabera> so --all is more like --almost-all
18:00:49 <izabera> i know that at least some of you use texlive <.<
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18:14:39 <myname> i use texlive, but the package manager of my distribution should handle that
18:17:52 <hppavilion[1]> infix stack commands.
18:17:55 <hppavilion[1]> Seriously.
18:18:27 <hppavilion[1]> "walrus":3 -> stack["walrus" "walrus" "walrus"]
18:18:40 <hppavilion[1]> Not the best design, but it works
18:18:52 <hppavilion[1]> Kind of. Don't know if it's anywhere close to TC.
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18:35:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArbourDB]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44825 * Hppavilion1 * (+247) Created Page
18:37:38 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a CSV-based funge designed for actual usability and potential serious usage
18:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> The IDE would be a spreadsheet software xD
18:38:28 <myname> funge is perfectly usable
18:38:51 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: so like y/;//d when loading the program?
18:39:03 <b_jonas> or whatever separator you use
18:39:07 <b_jonas> maybe y/\t//d
18:39:34 <hppavilion[1]> No clue
18:40:03 <hppavilion[1]> I don't really know how CSV works.
18:40:17 <hppavilion[1]> Though based on the name, I can guess it's fairly simple
18:40:23 <myname> well, characger seperated values
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18:40:29 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: it depends
18:40:29 <myname> pretty much sums it up
18:40:35 <hppavilion[1]> I thought it was Comma Separated Values...
18:40:55 <myname> you actually don't have to use commas
18:41:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44826&oldid=42257 * 70.45.127.182 * (+478)
18:41:23 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: some CSV has double-quotes in it to escape most values, or only the values that contain the column delimiter or newlines. that's harder to parse, just y/\t//d won't work, because you may have to join lines when there's a quoted newline
18:41:57 <hppavilion[1]> I found a csv library though, so... xD
18:42:19 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm starting out in Python; C(++)? implementation comes later)
18:42:36 <b_jonas> also, everyone has a different idea about what csv means, and they sometimes publish "standards" and say that their code writes and reads "standard csv" but of course there's no single such thing
18:42:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44827&oldid=44826 * 70.45.127.182 * (-478)
18:43:24 <hppavilion[1]> What should I call my usable Fungeoid...
18:43:48 <myname> what do you mean by "usable"?
18:44:14 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Something that, in a universe where I was lucky, could end up being used seriously.
18:44:18 <hppavilion[1]> I don't really plan on that, though.
18:44:44 <myname> why should one use it over befunge?
18:45:13 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It's actually readable. It allows you to push numbers anywhere in the range of a signed long integer.
18:45:28 <hppavilion[1]> It allows expressions that are evaluated on preprocessing.
18:46:04 <hppavilion[1]> Fungeoid® (Standard™ Lite™
18:46:11 <hppavilion[1]> Whoops, sent that too early
18:46:14 <myname> so, you are trying to make a preprocessor and call it a language
18:46:25 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Well it'll also have its own stuff
18:46:37 <hppavilion[1]> It'll support various useful features
18:46:50 <hppavilion[1]> I don't really plan to sell it, I'm just bored. xD.
18:47:13 <hppavilion[1]> "Fungeoid® (Lite|Standard|Pro|Entereprise)™" xD.
18:47:45 <hppavilion[1]> There /will/ be a preprocessor of sorts though.
18:48:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, technically, a preprocessor is a language; a primitive transcompiler)
18:48:10 <myname> i am not convinced yet
18:48:24 <hppavilion[1]> I do not need to convince people.
18:48:41 <hppavilion[1]> It isn't really for usage, it's just designed to be marginally usable.
18:48:42 <myname> well yeah, basically changing brainfuck symbols to letters is a language
18:48:57 <hppavilion[1]> That is technically true.
18:49:11 <myname> these langiages tend to suck, though
18:49:23 <hppavilion[1]> It'll also have some OO if I figure that out.
18:49:34 <b_jonas> at least it's not a BF variant
18:49:47 <hppavilion[1]> At least that xD
18:49:48 <myname> befunge is perfectly useable, just look at fungot
18:49:48 <fungot> myname: like multi-color mode you could find a considerable amount of each register is set to 129 and 128 per line 200, 300 if dv=positive) call the old vector address in 53272 ( d018).
18:50:12 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But no one treats it as usable outside of this channel. No one's even /heard/ of it outside of this channel.
18:50:27 <hppavilion[1]> But what should I call it...
18:50:37 <myname> that will be true for whazever you are trying to do, i guess
18:50:38 <hppavilion[1]> SmartFunge? Profunge?
18:51:14 <hppavilion[1]> Meh. I'll name it later.
18:51:53 <b_jonas> I think technically Mouse wasn't designed as an esolang
18:52:23 <hppavilion[1]> Thue wasn't even technically designed as an esolang, AFAIK. It was just an example in a paper.
18:52:27 <b_jonas> but then I think Befunge is a bit less convenient than Mouse, because of the lack of named variables or named subroutines
18:53:27 <b_jonas> does Befunge have an indirect jump?
18:53:33 <myname> rail actually has a lot of features
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19:19:36 <fizzie> b_jonas: Indirect in what sense? You can treat x in Funge-98 as an arbitrary relative jump (with operands from the stack), though it needs to have a "landing pad" to reset the delta.
19:26:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that sense is fine
19:30:10 <fizzie> (There's also a j, which pops a number and jumps that * delta.)
19:33:34 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that's even easier
19:34:13 <hppavilion[1]> How do I rotate a fungeoidal vector?
19:34:39 <hppavilion[1]> (by 90 degrees (or any other number, for that matter))
19:35:35 <hppavilion[1]> Not vector, delta
19:38:37 <fizzie> (x, y) = (-y, x) etc. are the usual 90-degree rotations.
19:39:09 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
19:39:13 <fizzie> They fall out of the [cos x, -sin x; sin x, cos x] rotation matrix.
19:39:23 <hppavilion[1]> OK
19:39:29 <Phantom_Hoover> as do the double angle formulae
19:39:40 <Phantom_Hoover> that's literally the only way i can remember them
19:44:02 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Is that one for clockwise or counter-clockwise? And what's the other one? Am I asking stupid questions?
19:44:11 <hppavilion[1]> I don't feel like doing that much thinking right now xD
19:44:30 <hppavilion[1]> I think I figured out that that's the one for clockwise
19:44:31 <Phantom_Hoover> anticlockwise
19:44:34 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
19:44:38 <hppavilion[1]> (dammit!)
19:44:41 <hppavilion[1]> Right, right
19:44:55 <Phantom_Hoover> no!
19:44:59 <Phantom_Hoover> that one's clockwise
19:45:02 <hppavilion[1]> Oh xD
19:45:05 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, what the fuck is wrong with you
19:45:07 <hppavilion[1]> Were you just correcting me?
19:45:27 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Is it? (1,2) to (-2,1)?
19:45:54 <int-e> fizzie: are you thinking in screen coordinates?
19:46:11 <fizzie> Depends on which screen that is!
19:46:49 <Phantom_Hoover> (0,1) to (cos, -sin)
19:46:54 <Phantom_Hoover> ffs
19:47:01 <Phantom_Hoover> (1,0) to (cos,-sin)
19:47:08 <int-e> oh I see, the matrix didn't agree with the previous one.
19:47:09 <Phantom_Hoover> so clockwise
19:47:36 <int-e> ...
19:48:19 <int-e> sorry, too many conventions at play here ... are you working with vectors?
19:48:24 <int-e> meh
19:48:30 <int-e> with *column* vectors?
19:48:48 <Phantom_Hoover> column vectors, yes
19:48:52 <Phantom_Hoover> as god intended
19:49:17 <fizzie> Column vectors, yes, but I may have gotten rows/columns mixed up when going from the implied [0 1; -1 0] to the sincossy one.
19:49:34 <fizzie> Did I just do that again.
19:49:58 <int-e> yes you did
19:50:00 <fizzie> Yes. I'm going to just not say anything, I think.
19:50:31 <int-e> at least you're consistent
19:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> i still want to get a proper mathematician's watch
19:51:03 <Phantom_Hoover> where noon is at the right, the hands go anticlockwise and the hours are marked off in radians
19:51:04 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: *Anyway*, the pair of (x, y) = (-y, x) is (x, y) = (y, -x).
19:52:02 <hppavilion[1]> I don't really know what a pair is. Keep in mind, I just finished first quarter algebra II. And barely passed.
19:52:21 <hppavilion[1]> (well, I know that a pair is a 2-tuple, but I don't know what it is in /this/ context)
19:52:55 <int-e> inverse?
19:53:03 * int-e is confused as well.
19:55:06 <hppavilion[1]> I added the cardinal directions to what I'm calling Profunge.
19:55:13 <hppavilion[1]> Should I add non-cardinal directions?
19:55:22 <hppavilion[1]> (Northwest, etc.)
19:55:31 <int-e> hmm... non-cardinal... omega + 1
19:55:36 <hppavilion[1]> xD
19:55:53 <hppavilion[1]> I mean like the secondary ones, the ones at 45 degree angles from the cardinals xD
19:56:03 <hppavilion[1]> (Though you obviously understood what I meant...)
19:56:25 <int-e> skip those and add knight moves
19:56:52 <hppavilion[1]> How about no xD
19:56:59 <hppavilion[1]> Those'll be in a library.
19:57:01 <hppavilion[1]> xD.
19:58:21 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll reserve the 4 secondaries for that same library.
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20:24:42 <hppavilion[1]> Should I include tradtional single-character stack manipulation commands?
20:24:53 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. $=DROP, \=SWAP, :=DUP
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21:05:00 <fizzie> Sometimes, the text/plain half of a multipart/alternative messages can be rather different than the HTML part.
21:05:35 <fizzie> This one says: "preview email text - enter one line of text to show up in the preview window make it fairly long", and "[TITLE_ONE_HALF HREF TITLE ALL-CAPS]", and "This is very important English email. This is def not Latin. Please don't flag this as Latin because it isn't."
21:05:45 <coppro> w
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21:40:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DLosc * New user account
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22:37:00 <ais523> @messages?
22:37:00 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
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22:38:50 <hppavilion[1]> We should update Befunge to Funge-98
22:39:32 <hppavilion[1]> In other news, I think I discovered a new (or at least seldom discussed) programming style and paradigm.
22:39:47 <hppavilion[1]> s/update Befunge to/create a page for/
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22:43:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44828&oldid=44393 * Hppavilion1 * (+61) Linked to fungeoids
22:43:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44829&oldid=44828 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed the link (Gah! I never get those right!)
22:44:20 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Hi.
22:44:37 <ais523> hi
22:45:30 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll start on the page for Funge-98
22:46:13 <fizzie> FWIW, the existing page refers to Funge-98 here and there. It might make sense to just have a joint article for them.
22:47:10 <fizzie> Not that they couldn't be separate either, just musing.
22:47:30 <ais523> I think we should have befunge-93 and funge-98 as articles
22:47:36 <ais523> and suitable redirects/disambiguations
22:52:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44830&oldid=21000 * Hppavilion1 * (+395) Initialized page, will work on later.
22:53:12 <hppavilion[1]> Yay! The wiki get a disambiguation! I'm so proud of it, all grown up :,)
22:53:50 <hppavilion[1]> I agree with ais523; Funge-98 is /very/ different from Befunge-93
22:54:42 <hppavilion[1]> Though I do think that Funge-98's page should be about /(Concurrent)? (Un|B|Tr)efunge-98/, instead of having different pages for each.
22:54:47 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: it has a disambiguation already
22:54:50 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue
22:54:56 <hppavilion[1]> Oh.
22:54:58 <hppavilion[1]> xD
22:55:19 <ais523> was great that two experienced esolangers just happened to pick the same name for their languages :-)
22:55:57 <fizzie> It's not the only one, either.
22:56:01 <fizzie> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Disambig
22:56:07 <fizzie> Clue, Onecode, Gibberish.
22:57:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44831&oldid=44829 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) /* History */ Fixed/repurposed a link.
22:58:54 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm making a language called Profunge that is designed to be a Fungeoid that is technically seriously usable. I'm trying to decide whether to allow traditional, single-character commands (like : for dup, $ for drop, \ for swap, etc.)
22:59:06 <hppavilion[1]> (Profunge is a working name)
22:59:58 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: Befunge-98 is already seriously usable
23:00:03 <ais523> fungot: demonstrate for me
23:00:03 <fungot> ais523: these two sources, timer a is used to verify ram, starting from the memory address in low-byte, high-byte order).
23:00:18 <fizzie> I don't think this is the best style for demonstrations.
23:00:35 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Technically, yes. However, it'll never get taken seriously, as it was made as an esolang.
23:00:45 <hppavilion[1]> Also, it's a pain in the ass to read.
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23:01:36 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well if you're trying to make a new language as a non-esolang, it's even less likely that people will take it seriously because you're competing with languages which have had a lot of effort put into them
23:02:07 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I don't really mean for it to be used xD. That's why I said "Technically".
23:03:09 <hppavilion[1]> I just mean that it /could/, in /theory/, be seriously used by someone someday
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