00:03:07 <tswett> Just took one of those Magic: the Gathering rules tests.
00:04:21 <tswett> Stuff I got wrong: Casting both halves of a fuse card counts as casting just one spell. Text is a characteristic. Vintage and Legacy are the only Eternal Constructed formats.
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00:27:16 <zgrep> boily: Sounds painful.
00:27:52 <boily> zgrellop. it's the best kind of massages.
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00:31:32 <HackEgo> mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
00:31:34 <HackEgo> mroman_ is probably mroman but you can never be sure. (NSFW)
00:32:11 <boily> @tell mroman your twiceunderscored wisdomnick isn't very useful. please correct twh
00:35:06 <tswett> More wrong stuff. In Two-Headed Giant, you attack teams, not players. If an object would change zones until X happens, but X has already happened, it doesn't change zones. When a fuse spell resolves, the left half works first. At Regular REL, the organizer can have players in a draft play outside their draft pod.
00:36:14 <boily> tswellott. studying to become a judge?
00:36:22 <tswett> Also, I failed to apply logic in one case.
00:37:51 <zgrep> He very we l lone?
00:38:15 <boily> it's a porthello. a hello portmanteau.
00:39:13 <tswett> I still think the word should be "portmantelleau".
00:39:34 <zgrep> <-- this random stranger is inclined to agree with tswett
00:42:18 <olsner> alexandr'ello portmantoily
00:43:11 <coppro> or at least a portemanteau
00:43:23 <coppro> (portemanteau is a portemanteau of porter and portmanteau)
00:44:00 <olsner> or the teau of a port man
00:44:46 <tswett> `learn "Portmanteau" is the French spelling of "port man toe".
00:44:48 <HackEgo> Learned '"portmanteau"': "Portmanteau" is the French spelling of "port man toe".
00:45:31 <tswett> Now, in Magic, every so often there's an effect that restricts your choice of creatures to attack with. Sometimes, multiple of these effects contradict each other.
00:45:42 <tswett> In that case, you must obey the greatest possible number of restrictions.
00:46:09 <tswett> I find it kind of interesting that it's "the greatest possible number of restrictions" rather than "a maximal set of restrictions".
00:46:43 <olsner> are similar restrictions counted twice?
00:47:19 <tswett> I think so. I don't know about identical restrictions.
00:54:02 <boily> `` rm 'wisdom/"portmanteau"'
00:54:28 <boily> `le/rn portmanteau/«Portmanteau» is the French spelling of “port man toe”.
00:55:20 <tswett> Yeah, yours is better.
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01:05:58 <\oren\> trudeau is the french version fo true dough
01:09:36 <boily> pumpkins are nice!
01:09:49 <boily> trudeau is the French version of trou d'eau.
01:09:58 <zgrep> Mine have a habit on not becoming my friends, unlike boily apparently. :(
01:11:05 <boily> you have to assert dominance over the Vegetable Kingdom.
01:11:27 <boily> for example, tonight I cooked a large batch of sambar.
01:11:31 <tswett> Huh. I managed to never know that if a spell is countered, it's removed from the stack.
01:11:48 <tswett> I thought that it remained on the stack, and simply went to the graveyard with no effect upon resolution.
01:12:26 <boily> huh? it disappears from the stack? that can't be right.
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01:14:37 <tswett> Well, it goes from the stack to the graveyard.
01:15:08 <tswett> It doesn't go into the actually-removed-from-the-game-and-not-just-exiled zone.
01:15:14 <tswett> Nor, for that matter, the exile zone.
01:17:22 <tswett> Now, if you "play with the top card of your library revealed", exactly when do you have to reveal it? Is it a state-based action?
01:20:53 <boily> coppro: chelloppro. please halp.
01:21:18 <coppro> tswett: no, it's immediate
01:21:34 <tswett> So if you draw seven cards, you have to reveal each card before you draw it?
01:21:53 <coppro> this is in part due to a separate rule stating that each card draw must be processed individually
01:22:05 <coppro> if you exile the top N cards of your library face down, you don't reveal them all
01:34:45 <tswett> "Once Azure Mage has been destroyed, as a state-based action, its ability ceases to exist." That sounds like the sort of thing that *would* be in the rules.
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01:42:43 <HackEgo> nimby/NIMBY : Not in my backyard.
01:43:00 <coppro> boily: have you updated wisdom.pdf recently?
01:43:45 <boily> >_>'... <_<;... eeeeeeh... v_v;...
01:44:32 <tswett> Yowch. 50% on that one.
01:44:40 <tswett> It's like my knowledge of the rules is decreasing as I keep taking tests.
01:45:41 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0300 COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT]
01:45:53 <boily> my ruse is unveiled!
01:46:35 <boily> I shall disappear in a puff of chicken!
01:46:39 <\oren\> I don't have combining accents in my font... I could have sworn I added them noni
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01:49:35 <tswett> Hmm. Apparently with Isochron Scepter, if the imprinted card ceases to be exiled, its activated ability, which says "you may copy the exiled card", has no effect.
01:50:03 <pikhq> I'm certain this comes up a lot.
01:50:21 <tswett> What I expected was that the phrase "the exiled card" would continue to refer to the same card. There's a rule that says something along those lines.
01:50:56 <tswett> But apparently, the phrase "the exiled card" actually no longer refers to anything.
01:57:28 <tswett> What else did I get wrong, here...
01:59:06 <tswett> Given two continuous effects, if there's nothing else to distinguish them, the later effect overrides the earlier one, not vice versa.
01:59:38 <tswett> The phrase "you may" does not make a spell or ability modal.
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03:14:48 <hppavilion[1]> I mentioned this earlier but no one seemed to be on
03:15:39 <hppavilion[1]> cs("abc")+cs("cba"), for example, is equal to the set of strings {"abccba", "cbaabc"}
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03:22:09 <\oren\> I am constantly in need of a regex operator with that meaning
03:23:00 <\oren\> e.g. if the operator was \@ then /foo\@bar/ would match foobar or barfoo
03:24:04 <\oren\> without this operator, you have to list all permutations
03:29:48 <izabera> what do you need that for?
03:34:06 <\oren\> for matching something like (upper left|left upper)
03:34:21 <\oren\> and various things like that
03:36:19 <\oren\> when the user could say two things in either order, but must say both, it's annoying to have to repeat the patter
03:37:34 <izabera> the trailing space is kind of a problem, isn't it?
03:50:59 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Oh! I thought of that AGES ago as the & operator and have been half tempted to figure out who's in charge of standard regexes and suggest it!
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04:16:01 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: I think it's like markdown. So you'd probably petition PCRE first, in my opinion, then the rest of 'em.
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04:19:08 <oerjan> <izabera> and she can't even tell them to fuck off <-- why, did she die of old age?
04:20:26 * oerjan googles and doesn't think she looks old
04:20:42 <oerjan> although maybe the pictures are
04:21:52 <izabera> she was 39 in matrix 2 https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/4c/b8/f24cb8618f149b878bfc526da8f23883.jpg
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04:22:27 * oerjan obligatory joke that matrix has no sequel
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04:25:22 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Yay! New people! <-- but is e confusing limes and lemons
04:26:44 * oerjan suddenly wonders what's the term for lemonade, except with limes
04:27:07 <oerjan> izabera: the difference is that the nick used lemons while our wiki uses limes
04:32:17 <oerjan> <tswett> Heverywellone. <-- where did you get the w THAT MAKES NO SENSE
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04:50:26 <oerjan> <\oren\> e.g. if the operator was \@ then /foo\@bar/ would match foobar or barfoo <-- the trouble with that notation as an operator is that it doesn't work with more than two
04:51:33 <oerjan> e.g. foo\@bar\@baz will miss either permutations with foo in the middle or permutations with baz in the middle, dependent on how it parses
04:52:43 <oerjan> it needs to be genuinely multi-argument
04:58:53 <\oren\> why would it have to be parsed as (foo\@bar)\@baz
04:59:23 <\oren\> it can be like the 0<x<1 notation in math
04:59:37 <oerjan> yes. but then it wouldn't be an operator.
05:00:00 <\oren\> bah, operator or not, I need it
05:00:34 <oerjan> and then there's that pesky space in your other example
05:00:55 <\oren\> yeah that doesn'tapply to the pseudo-regexes I use at work
05:01:39 <\oren\> spaces are sort of handled in the correctway automatically
05:02:02 <izabera> funny how you forgot a space while saying it
05:02:33 <\oren\> on the other hand this means that you can't do /plural(s)?/
05:02:55 <\oren\> you have to do /plural|plurals/
06:12:33 <izabera> https://github.com/orlp/pdqsort
06:15:31 <oerjan> randall munroe tells it like it is
06:17:48 <oerjan> girl genius has been eerily regular lately
06:21:10 <oerjan> i get this strange impression seffie isn't _entirely_ stable.
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07:38:55 <shachaf> today someone recommended reading a Gregor paper
07:39:45 <oerjan> someone not from here?
07:40:04 <oerjan> was it The Eval Men Do
07:40:13 <oerjan> or whatever pun was the actual title
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07:40:38 <shachaf> also there were a bunch of other authors
07:40:45 <shachaf> http://the.gregor.institute/papers/onward2013-wuerthinger-truffle.pdf
07:40:52 <shachaf> that's a pretty good domain name
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07:41:06 <oerjan> is this why gregor isn't here, he's getting too famous
07:42:26 <oerjan> the oven top heat sensor beeps every 12 h 20 min
07:42:38 <oerjan> i should probably see if i can get the batteries changed
07:43:08 <oerjan> (it beeps more if i don't stop it)
07:43:44 <oerjan> shachaf: well the title does not disappoint
07:49:05 <oerjan> apparently i was only missing a "that" in the title
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07:58:25 <izabera> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3qt7ky/thought_id_share_my_unfortunate_interaction_while/ hitler is back
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09:00:33 <b_jonas> Hah! http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3080 reveals Claire was lying in the previous strip. I knew it!
09:01:21 <b_jonas> I can buy the quantum tunnel, but I'm quite sure the Library of Congress doesn't have a complete backup of GeoCities from 2001. That would be immensely valuable. Some people have scraped part of it before GeoCities shut down, but much of it is lost forever, sadly.
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09:05:58 <oerjan> stupid sites stealing my arrow keys
09:06:01 <b_jonas> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo!_GeoCities#Archiving_GeoCities_Web_sites
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10:35:01 <mroman> http://xkcd.com/1597/ <- truest description of git ever
10:35:14 <mroman> if I run into problems, I just clone it from new and copy my changes back to it ;D
10:35:19 <lambdabot> boily said 10h 3m 7s ago: your twiceunderscored wisdomnick isn't very useful. please correct twh
10:36:43 <myname> twh is that would help. hth
10:36:53 <boily> it's a bad git description. when I screw a repository, I know how to fix it.
10:36:58 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
10:37:01 <mroman> urban dictionary suggested "texting while horny"
10:38:08 <mroman> New study: How many people sext on IRC.
10:38:19 <oerjan> boily: so does that mean you're the guy in the xkcd hovertext
10:39:08 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ rm "wisdom/$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z)" \ echo "Forget what?"
10:39:29 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/fuigepwifpqø': No such file or directory \ Forget what?
10:40:34 <boily> git isn't beautiful, it's a beautiful hack. branches are branches. “git reset --hard HEAD && git clean -fd” when everything exploses.
10:41:05 <boily> hellœrjan. you have a dedicated key for ø?
10:41:19 <oerjan> it's to the right of l
10:41:52 <mroman> äêëüfgçrl/=\-ßnthdîûéôàâöèùïbmwvz
10:41:58 <mroman> I don't have one as it seems :(
10:43:15 <HackEgo> [U+012F LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH OGONEK] [U+0151 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DOUBLE ACUTE]
10:43:35 <fizzie> ø comes out of altgr-ö here.
10:44:08 <boily> ö is Shift-DeadDiæresis o.
10:44:26 <mroman> but I can't find ø on my keyboard
10:44:42 <HackEgo> [U+0151 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DOUBLE ACUTE] [U+01EB LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH OGONEK] [U+00F4 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH CIRCUMFLEX] [U+00F6 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DIAERESIS] [U+01D2 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH CARON] [U+022F LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DOT ABOVE]
10:44:55 <oerjan> sadly, altgr-ø gives me nothing but i do have a dead ¨ key
10:45:36 <oerjan> despite the key having Ö and Æ printed on it as well.
10:45:44 <fizzie> Huh. I'm using the 'nodeadkeys' fi variant, but altgr-å is still a dead ˝.
10:48:49 <oerjan> i don't think i have œ
10:48:55 <boily> Canadian Multilingual Standard.
10:49:39 <mroman> "Dvorak alternative international with no dead keys"
10:50:30 <mroman> pressing altgr+shift / followed by should produce ø :(
10:50:50 <mroman> like altgr+shift " followed by a produces ä
10:52:08 <mroman> but otherwise I'm quite happy with the Dvorak-Layout
10:52:20 <mroman> the international versions at least
10:52:32 <mroman> the US version obviously sucks if you're european.
10:54:04 <HackEgo> [U+1E8D LATIN SMALL LETTER X WITH DIAERESIS]
10:55:19 <mroman> I'm gonna design me a conlang with ẍ,ǫ and those :D
10:58:02 <boily> âĉêĝĥîĵôŝûŵŷẑ àèìǹòùǜẁỳ åůẘẙ ãẽĩñõũṽỹ āēḡīōūǖȳ ăĕğĭŏŭ áçéǵíḱĺḿńóṕŕśúǘẃýź őű ǎčďěǧȟǐǰǩľňǒřšťǔǚž ȧḃċḋėḟġḣıȷŀṁṅȯṗṙṡṫẇẋẏż
11:02:27 <boily> mroman: could you please use ẅŵẁẘẃẇ and ṽ?
11:02:28 <b_jonas> boily: you're missing at least æøœł
11:02:42 <b_jonas> boily: what, the velsh stuff?
11:03:03 <b_jonas> wait, what the heck is a w with a ring? does that even exist?
11:03:12 <boily> yes, but æøœł don't involve dead keys.
11:03:22 <boily> it's typeable, thus it exists.
11:05:30 <boily> about ẘ: “ISO 233 uses this letter to transliterate وْ, the Arabic letter waw with a sukun.”
11:06:18 <b_jonas> boily: did you list all the Esperanto consonants there?
11:07:22 <b_jonas> also, wait, boily: where's țș ?
11:08:18 <boily> b_jonas: all the circumflexed letters seem to be there, along with ŭ.
11:08:35 <boily> I can't type them on an unadulterated CMS layout :/
11:08:46 <b_jonas> yep, all Esperanto is there
11:09:52 <b_jonas> boily: that's sad. can you type ðþ ? or the Serbian latin script letters?
11:10:23 <boily> ð and þ are there.
11:10:30 <b_jonas> or the Maltese H with bar?
11:11:46 <b_jonas> ok, so how about ðđÐĐ all four correctly?
11:12:11 <boily> I only have eth. I'm missing Serbian/Vietnamese D with bar.
11:12:32 <b_jonas> ok, how about the serbian c with acute accent?
11:13:11 <boily> weird, I'm stuck with ç.
11:14:16 <b_jonas> well, this is still quite a lot. I'm planning to add some extra letters to my keyboard layout, though I haven't quite decided on where exactly to put each letter, but I won't put this many
11:17:20 <b_jonas> I think I'm going to put àèìòù to aeiou, âêîôû to áéíóú, and ëï to nm (mnemonic is Noël and maïs),
11:17:29 <oerjan> boily: that's almost pronouncable
11:18:55 <b_jonas> but then I need a place for äßøæœç and maybe a few others
11:19:34 <boily> in Ithkuil it probably means: “Well, you may want to be having had eated breakfast with an extra fried egg, but the return to the uncommon plains will be a little bit harsher by a rusty bike.”
11:20:13 <b_jonas> boily: no way. Ithkuil doesn't have a letter ŧ
11:20:22 <b_jonas> you're thinking of that other, more crazy conlang
11:20:38 <b_jonas> the one that has like a hundred consonants as well as twelve tones
11:20:41 <boily> (stupid verbs. so many years, and I still can't past tense correctly. my nemesis is "catched" instead of "caught".)
11:21:01 <boily> there's a crazier one than Ithkuil???
11:21:02 <b_jonas> yeah, I hate some of these irregular verbs too
11:21:11 <b_jonas> boily: sure, why, what did you think?
11:21:18 <int-e> wow, GG updated... maybe they even have a buffer now?
11:21:42 <b_jonas> boily: it might depend on how complete a language you want, of course.
11:21:50 <boily> b_jonas: Ithkuil is some kind of Planck upper limit on conlang complexity.
11:25:05 <b_jonas> I mean, you sitting here on #esolang and mistify Itgkuil?
11:25:50 <b_jonas> Ithkuil is like perl. it has a reputation of line noise among some, but it isn't really that much different from an ordinary conlang.
11:26:19 <boily> \oren\: please add Ithkuil glyphs to your font.
11:26:31 <boily> b_jonas: an extremely compact conlang.
11:27:55 * boily defiantly glares at b_jonas ”mhngnyeuh!ʼn
11:29:56 <b_jonas> as for compact, there's the stereotypical conlang people try to make where every word is a single syllable, and it can have enough declinations and conjugations that you don't need to use extra grammar words most of the time. but it ends up as a language that has five extra vowels that the language rules claims are really consonants so that they don't increase the syllable count.
11:30:04 <b_jonas> but it ends up as a language that has five extra vowels that the language rules claims are really consonants so that they don't increase the syllable count.
11:30:57 <b_jonas> so basically, just y/aeiou/qhxwy/ any word and then it's one syllable
11:31:04 <Jafet> How about a conlang where you are grammatically required to repeat yourself all the time, like in Java
11:32:07 <boily> I shall go drown my sorrows by hugging a bottle of grapefruit-scented shampoo.
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11:33:13 <b_jonas> public class HelloWorld { public static void main(String[] args) { Java isn't really like that, surely. I mean, come on.
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11:38:44 <b_jonas> how many times have you had to write
11:38:50 <b_jonas> template<typename derived_type> template<typename vecket_xec_detail::xecinteger_crtp<derived_type>::xec_type (typename vecket_xec_detail::xecinteger_crtp<derived_type>::xec_type::*binop)(typename vecket_xec_detail::xecinteger_crtp<derived_type>::xec_type other) const> typename vecket_xec_detail::xecinteger_crtp<derived_type>::uint_t vecket_xec_detail::xecinteger_crtp<derived_type>::reducefull_u() const;
11:39:08 <b_jonas> in Java just because the MS compiler is stupid and doesn't understand the declaration you want to write despite that it's completely valid C++?
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11:40:48 <b_jonas> hmm, I think the third typename there is not needed
11:42:09 <b_jonas> in standard C++, that declaration would have to be only three lines long, not four lines.
11:42:24 <b_jonas> the MS compiler is a bitch.
11:48:44 <b_jonas> does java really have clumsy repetitive syntax like the one MS C requries for that declaration?
11:49:14 <mroman> Java is not very repetitive imo
11:49:25 <mroman> but that's just because you can't overload operators
11:49:45 <mroman> and because it has no syntax sugar for tuples or lists
11:50:04 <mroman> but Java 8 at least introduced lambdas
11:51:20 <mroman> http://codepad.org/unSpEcsf
11:51:26 <mroman> ^- maybe you'd like to code in this language?
11:53:18 <b_jonas> does it really have to repeat the xmlns url so many times?
11:53:24 <b_jonas> can't it do that just once at the top?
11:53:36 <b_jonas> well it's a stupid xml writer then
11:53:49 <b_jonas> I think you can declare all namespaces once near the top
11:55:25 <mroman> I'm using XML to represent the stuff I want to feed to my codegen
11:55:35 <mroman> i.e. I'm using XML as an intermediate language ;)
11:56:22 <Jafet> That's the wrong way round, XML is meant to be your human-interaction language
11:57:19 <mroman> or technically it's the "bytecode"
11:57:25 <mroman> there's also an interpreter which interprets the XML
11:57:28 <Jafet> For your intermediate language, make up something new that communicates exactly the set of data that you currently need and nothing more
12:07:30 <Jafet> b_jonas: Java still has the Foo x = new Foo(...); a.put(x); Foo y = (Foo)a.get();
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13:29:24 <Taneb> I'm presenting a talk on esolangs tomorrow
13:29:48 <Taneb> Which, of course, means I need to prepare a talk on esolangs
13:29:53 <Taneb> In the next 25 hours
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13:35:31 <mroman> Just mention Burlesque and you'll be fine ;)
13:35:48 <mroman> Jafet: That's what I meant with "little syntactic sugar support"
13:36:01 <mroman> in every other language you could overload []
13:37:12 <mroman> (For the next release like 30 new bulit-ins are planned)
13:37:59 <mroman> @define filterOut f xs = filter (not . f) xs
13:38:09 <mroman> > filterOut (even) [1..10]
13:38:12 <fizzie> In every other language, like not C.
13:38:29 <mroman> C is a terrible language.
13:38:34 <fizzie> Also I don't think you see all that much (Foo)a.get() with generics.
13:38:47 <mroman> No, but still bar.get(index)
13:39:19 <mroman> However, due to compatibility issues some functions still take Object
13:39:20 <fizzie> Can't say I mind that.
13:39:50 <fizzie> Although I did see the most Java-est method name the other day, I forget what it was.
13:39:51 <mroman> which requires a downcast, which produces runtime exceptions
13:40:05 <mroman> or an instanceof check and return false if you compare a TcpSocket to a String
13:40:41 <mroman> setCustomerNameAndUpdateDatabaseNow(String name) ?
13:40:43 <fizzie> Oh, right, it was the Selenium thing.
13:40:57 <fizzie> mroman: ExpectedConditions.frameToBeAvailableAndSwitchToIt.
13:41:39 <fizzie> It sounds weird, because you're meant to use it in a call to 'until' on a variable conventionally named 'wait', so that it reads wait.until(frameToBeAvailableAndSwitchToIt(x)) when you've import static'd the method.
13:41:58 <mroman> Why I like Java: Cross-platform, Garbage collected
13:42:17 <mroman> and sadly Java is pretty much the only language that fullfils this role :(
13:43:16 <fizzie> There's also wait.until(presenceOfElementLocated(By.foo(bar))); but then somehow it goes wait.until(presenceOfAllElementsLocatedBy(By.foo(bar)); for another method in the same class.
13:43:47 <fizzie> I guess whoever wrote the first one uses the By.foo static methods with an 'import By', while whoever wrote the second one static imports them.
13:47:27 <Jafet> If it was named with a specific sentence in mind, why ToBeAvailable? Why not BecomesAvailable, or ArtWhenceforthAvailable
13:51:10 <b_jonas> Question. What are the words where the French spelling actually looks _saner_ than the English spelling? One of them is automn, but there was a few other.
13:53:00 <mroman> Probably every french word has a saner spelling than english
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15:05:18 <mroman> #Q(?+)(?*)r~5.-#q5 5?+
15:05:25 <mroman> that's the nastiest Burlesque-Code I've written so far
15:05:36 <izabera> i thought it was a drunk regex
15:05:48 <mroman> This replaces every occurence of ?+ after the #q with ?*
15:07:23 <mroman> probably not nested occurences though
15:08:02 <b_jonas> um, what does the 5.- thing do?
15:08:34 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how that even tokeizes
15:08:40 <mroman> #Q pushes the remaining code to the stack
15:08:57 <mroman> so #Q pushes {(?+)(?*)r~5.-#q5 5?+} to the stack
15:09:33 <mroman> then (?+)(?*)r~ runs which replaces ?+ with ?* resulting in {(?*)(?*)r~5.-#q5 5?*}
15:09:41 <mroman> then 5.- removes the first 5 tokens
15:10:10 <mroman> thus removing the code for the replacement from the list
15:10:23 <mroman> then #q pops the code from the stack
15:10:32 <mroman> which will result in 5 5?* being run
15:10:48 <mroman> so 5.- produces {#q5 5?*}
15:11:04 <mroman> (actually 6.- works as well)
15:11:08 <b_jonas> but how is { 5.- } tokenized?
15:11:08 <mroman> #q is a nop if no list is on the stack
15:11:23 <b_jonas> why is { 5. } not a single token?
15:11:27 <mroman> 7.- would result in 5?* wich throws an error
15:11:53 <mroman> {5.-} is a block with two elements
15:11:56 <mroman> an integer and an identifier
15:12:14 <b_jonas> but why is that not tokenized as a floating point literal 5. followed by - which is half a token
15:12:18 <b_jonas> so -# would be the next token
15:12:42 <mroman> because floating points require at least one trailing digit
15:13:06 <b_jonas> so the rule differs from C
15:13:08 <mroman> if you write 5.- it tries to parse it as float
15:13:13 <mroman> but that fails because - is not a digit
15:13:21 <mroman> so it fallsback to try to parse it as an integer
15:13:58 <mroman> if you need to write 5.0 you can write @5 because you can't write 5. ;)
15:14:25 <mroman> also @'a is an infinite string of a's :)
15:14:37 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id faq do bf ask arr @ ? .
15:15:06 <mroman> Used for ranges like @afr\ which gives you "abcdef"
15:15:41 <b_jonas> how do you write negative floating point literals?
15:16:14 <b_jonas> are c99 style hex float literals with "p" for base 2 exponent accepted?
15:16:29 <mroman> (@-5 is short for -5.0)
15:16:45 <mroman> Also technically builtins can contain digits or { and }
15:17:00 <b_jonas> sure, some builtins contain those already
15:17:28 <mroman> yeah and there's some parser hackery as well
15:17:51 <mroman> m{ IS a built-in if the parser fails
15:18:04 <mroman> ERROR: Unknown command: (m{)
15:18:11 <mroman> ERROR: Burlesque: (m[) Invalid arguments!
15:18:24 <mroman> m{....} is short for {....}m[
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15:19:08 <mroman> I should fix that probably someday
15:20:10 <b_jonas> but someone was planning to put one online
15:20:14 <mroman> http://104.167.104.168/~burlesque/burlesque.cgi
15:20:20 <mroman> you can use the online cgi shell
15:20:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: blsq: not found
15:20:54 <b_jonas> you can put it to #esoteric-blah if it'd be too much noise here
15:21:04 <b_jonas> and it says 2e5 isn't valid
15:21:04 <mroman> I could host the blsqbot on int-e's vserver
15:21:17 <mroman> e5 isn't a known built-in
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15:23:10 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (e5)!
15:23:20 <b_jonas> ok, so how do you write 2e5 then?
15:24:13 <mroman> Do you want me to add e-support?
15:24:58 <b_jonas> and 0x3.0 and 0x3p5 and 0x3.8p5 and 0x3.8p-5 support too probably
15:25:13 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (ff) Invalid arguments!
15:25:13 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (xf)!
15:25:26 <b_jonas> hexadecimal integer support
15:25:40 <b_jonas> would be useful for numeric data
15:25:47 <b_jonas> but I don't use blsq so do whatever you want
15:28:30 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (e5)!
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15:29:34 <HackEgo> blsqbot is the owner of the bot 'mroman'.
15:30:06 <mroman> int-e: it's running on my laptop currently ;)
15:30:19 <blsqbot> | 200000000000000015259539682183774006589929941893120
15:30:33 <mroman> I shouldn't read that to double
15:31:53 <blsqbot> | 200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
15:32:02 <blsqbot> | 200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.0
15:32:38 <b_jonas> how do you print in %g or %.16e or %a format?
15:32:48 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (e-)!
15:33:12 <mroman> that wouldn't make sense for integers anyway or would it...
15:33:39 <mroman> b_jonas: you mean like "with 8 trailing zeroes?"
15:33:48 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (rm) Invalid arguments!
15:33:48 <blsqbot> | 200000000000000000000000000000000000000
15:33:50 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (RM)!
15:33:50 <blsqbot> | 200000000000000000000000000000000000000
15:33:56 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (rm) Invalid arguments!
15:35:57 <mroman> how did maps work again?
15:36:54 <mroman> !blsq %:0 1 2 2 3Vq?imk
15:36:54 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque (mk): Invalid arguments!
15:37:21 <mroman> !blsq %:0 1 2 2 3Vq?ijmk
15:38:06 <mroman> I thought map keys would map over the keys
15:38:09 <mroman> but it returns the keys of the map
15:38:35 <mroman> luckily maps are still undocumented :D
15:39:48 <mroman> I think vars are still undocumented too
15:39:55 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got output fo' that!
15:40:22 <mroman> nobody needs them for golfing anyway
15:40:28 <mroman> I just need them for more serious productive things
15:40:53 <mroman> also in most cases hiding is still shorter
15:41:07 <mroman> or using the secondary stack
15:41:44 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (e-)!
15:41:54 <mroman> the good thing is, 2e- can still be parsed as 2 e- :D
15:41:58 <mroman> so I can make a command e-
15:42:49 <mroman> also I should probably use maps for builtin lookups
15:42:52 <mroman> and not a linear search :D
15:43:02 <mroman> looking up the built-in rM is like O(388)
15:43:56 <Taneb> Oh wow, http://www.intercaloninterstates.org/ exists
15:45:20 <blsqbot> | 0.00000000007943282347242822
15:48:09 <mroman> blqsbot please do quit
15:48:42 <mroman> blsqbot please do quit
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15:50:30 <mroman> Taneb: Yeah, I saw that a while ago.
15:51:25 <Taneb> I remember reading somewhere that an Intercal compiler managed to break man, does anyone have a source for this?
15:52:13 <Taneb> man as in the program to bring up a man page
15:56:13 <mroman> is man written in Intercal?
15:57:05 <mroman> I should write a man page for burlesque :D
15:57:15 <Taneb> It was because the compiler's name was something like "ew, ick"
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16:30:36 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/BLSQ.html
16:30:52 <mroman> I could re-write the documentation in Markdown and export it ilke that.
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16:44:13 <Taneb> What's the minimal loop nesting required to make brainfuck at least in Fancy L?
16:54:24 <int-e> At a glance, 1 is insufficient, and 3 is easily enough. But the case of 2 levels looks challenging.
16:57:49 <b_jonas> I think we were talking about this once, in the context of how many you need to make it turing-complete
16:58:02 <b_jonas> I think there was a proof or almost-proof that one bracket is not enough, but I'm not sure
16:58:35 <b_jonas> There's certainly a fixed number of levels that are enough, because you can build an interpreter, but I don't know how many levels that is
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17:15:06 <Jafet> It may depend on whether it is possible to branch using one level.
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17:19:31 <Jafet> LeJIT paper titles. http://www.internetsociety.org/doc/too-lejit-quit-extending-jit-spraying-arm
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18:03:45 <mroman> b_jonas: Do you have a github account?
18:04:12 <b_jonas> mroman: I think I have one lying somewhere, but I don't use it
18:04:27 <b_jonas> I needed one to file bug tickets for something
18:04:28 <mroman> Somebody should fork Burlesque so it doesn't get lost in case I decide to delete it again someday.
18:04:50 <b_jonas> do I need a github account for that?
18:04:56 <mroman> I think forks survive if the original repo is forked.
18:05:00 <mroman> b_jonas: I think, yes.
18:05:03 <b_jonas> wouldn't they just download a local copy of the repo?
18:05:22 <b_jonas> I could do that later today if you want, unless it's too big
18:05:59 <mroman> I was thinking of asking graue to put a snapshot of it into the esofiles
18:06:10 <b_jonas> well, whoever runs anagolf probably has a copy
18:06:33 <b_jonas> but possibly only a snapshot, not the whole version history
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18:06:40 <mroman> well the version history is gone ;)
18:06:52 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque
18:06:57 <mroman> so are the version tags etc.
18:07:42 <mroman> the commit history has survived
18:07:55 <mroman> or do I need to push tags explictly?
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18:08:54 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/releases
18:09:04 <mroman> 1.7.3 is the one used on anagol
18:09:26 <mroman> I'll fork the esofiles
18:09:31 <mroman> add the 1.7.3 zip to it
18:09:37 <mroman> and send graue a pull request
18:09:46 <mroman> then at least 1.7.3 is correctly archived.
18:11:49 <mroman> hm. v1.0 had 91 built-ins
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18:14:20 <fizzie> A bit late, but a "default" git clone does indeed set things up so that tags aren't pushed by default.
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21:50:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Malbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44989&oldid=44919 * Rdebath * (+44) Here's a code block inside a ::: -- Oh and reduce the indent on the first message too.
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22:39:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Grin]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44990&oldid=23530 * Zdimension * (+33) /* Commands */ Fixed the whole thing (all the specified examples didn't work with the previous spec, now it works)
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22:45:27 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe we should branch out and allow the wiki to include esoconlangs...
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23:53:11 <quintopia> i have a new esolang article in the works... maybe i will finish it tomorrow?
23:53:52 <quintopia> but its more of an actually potentially useful lang that happdlens to be esoteric only because no one knows it
23:54:07 <izabera> why tomorrow when you can do it in a week