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00:03:44 <boily> what was the idea?
00:05:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45138 * Hppavilion1 * (+238) 32 bit machines
00:06:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45139&oldid=45138 * Hppavilion1 * (+95) Signed
00:06:54 <boily> \oren\: that's slereah's schtick, to be on a phone.
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00:07:16 <boily> huh. I thought I had something phony about him...
00:07:42 <boily> hppavilion[1]: what kind of train? diesel, electric, maglev?
00:07:50 <oerjan> he's french, is that phony enough?
00:08:09 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not a train fanatic, but suddenly I am in love with this idea
00:08:25 <boily> I'm quasifrench. maybe téléphonesque?
00:08:29 <hppavilion[1]> It's a declarative language that executes on a sort-of-directed graph
00:08:39 <\oren\> im sshing to my computer
00:09:17 <boily> the Wisdom PDF has “He's on a phone!” about Slereah.
00:09:32 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/slereah
00:09:43 <oerjan> seems to never have existed
00:10:03 <hppavilion[1]> It's kind of like Stare, where imperative instructions are executed upon declarative conditions
00:10:18 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `test': No such file or directory
00:10:21 <\oren\> how do you screenshot on android again?
00:10:24 <HackEgo> int-e oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan Lyrissa mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ Hjulle oerjan oerjan elliott oerjan blotter blotter blotter oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan Roujo oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 oerjan shachaf elliott FreeFull oer
00:11:18 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*lere*: No such file or directory
00:11:20 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
00:12:36 <boily> \oren\: hold down power and home at the same time. or volume down and power. or volume down and home.
00:13:09 <oerjan> `learn Slereah est sur un téléphone
00:13:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'slereah': Slereah est sur un téléphone
00:13:51 <boily> En effet. D'ailleurs, parlant de Slereah, y'est rendu où?
00:15:02 * oerjan ran that through GT and still doesn't know what boily is asking
00:15:53 <boily> “Indeed. Moreover, speaking about Slereah, where is he?”
00:16:13 <boily> not so bad. GT is improving!
00:16:18 <oerjan> argh stupid tunes doesn't reload when i revisit the tab
00:17:38 <oerjan> boily: he used to be in france...
00:20:22 <oerjan> <Taneb> I enjoy giving partial explanations <-- in the interest of discouraging partiality, why didn't you eat it yet twh
00:22:00 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/androidscreenshot.png
00:24:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45140&oldid=45139 * SuperJedi224 * (+147)
00:24:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45141&oldid=45140 * SuperJedi224 * (-1)
00:26:35 <boily> @ask Taneb are you asleep?
00:26:41 <Phantom_Hoover> because it's pointless, who cares what you made your website to look good on
00:27:15 <Phantom_Hoover> but the rest of the page is fine and it's obvious what you were going for with the design
00:27:53 <\oren\> good point if you can see the text then...
00:28:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45142&oldid=42222 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+435) /* Page removal request */ new section
00:28:59 <boily> \oren\: you should add a gopher version of you website.
00:32:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45143&oldid=45142 * Hppavilion1 * (+254) Advised on question
00:36:20 <zzo38> I made up a gopher server software with C in case you need it and/or want to make improvement of it
00:36:41 <boily> according to Wikipédia, gophers are: «... une famille de rongeurs appelés géomys, gaufres à poche, rats à poche...»
00:37:00 <boily> «gaufres à poche», also known as “pocketed waffles”.
00:38:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TOPL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45144 * Hppavilion1 * (+554) Created Page, figuring out what I'm doing
00:39:07 <Taneb> boily, I am not asleep, just a little distracted
00:39:13 <Taneb> oerjan, I have eaten it now
00:39:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45145&oldid=45141 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+579)
00:39:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User:-Dark-Phantom-/DStack]]": Author request: content was: "'''DStack''' is a stack-based esoteric language created by [[User:-Dark-Phantom-|-Dark-Phantom-]] on November, 2015. The language uses two stacks, a..." (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/-Dark-Phantom-|-Dark-Phantom-]]")
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00:42:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45146&oldid=45143 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+218) /* Page removal request */
00:48:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45147&oldid=45146 * Oerjan * (+288) /* Page removal request */ Done
00:48:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45148&oldid=45147 * Oerjan * (-1) /* Page removal request */ indentation
00:50:15 <zzo38> Do you like all of various new Magic: the Gathering cards that I have made up? There is even a few more recently.
00:50:42 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: OK, although you should need to describe such thing more specifically too
00:52:14 <zzo38> Such thing as EsOS and intercallian command line; if you make a document (even if just of ideas) then we can see the details of how such thing is working please.
00:52:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45149&oldid=45148 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+202) /* Page removal request */
00:53:27 <Taneb> As I need to be up early...
00:54:08 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: This EsOS is being made in Python, because there is /no/ way I was ever going to get it done in C or Rust
00:55:10 <hppavilion[1]> I already have the text renderer and the command line window thing :)
00:55:51 <hppavilion[1]> (I made my own text renderer instead of using Tkinter's create_text function such as to be more eso)
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01:13:29 <adu> hppavilion[1]: oOo meta
01:21:49 <boily> hppavilion[1]: the quinthellopia is quintessential to salute quintopia.
01:22:42 <quintopia> helloily is less essential, as it may be bon matily in the mornings
01:23:40 <boily> huh? eh? wut? CASTLE???
01:23:41 <\oren\> this damnable thing doesnt have page up so i have to prress esc[5~
01:25:51 <\oren\> yes,page up is the same as esc[5~ idk why
01:26:31 <adu> \oren\: oh android
01:27:05 <zzo38> Does Android not define page up key? That isn't very good.
01:27:08 <adu> \oren\: I usually use <cnrl>-i for tab
01:28:06 <adu> hppavilion[1]: noOo
01:28:10 <\oren\> the keyboard im using dorsn't have page up it d have tab tho
01:28:22 <adu> hppavilion[1]: please maybe don't give up
01:28:41 <adu> hppavilion[1]: that's valid INTERCAL
01:29:03 <boily> quintopia: itym "excluded", but "disincluded" is very boilywordlike, so I approve.
01:29:06 <hppavilion[1]> It's not actually that much like INTERCAL because I want it to be usable
01:29:14 <adu> please do run my program
01:29:21 <\oren\> ok I'm on my computer now
01:29:39 <adu> please do exec bash -c "echo hello world"
01:30:22 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Yeah... not THAT intercallian. I'm just going to do weird command names to start with, work towards Eso nirvanna from there
01:31:44 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone have any suggestions for what I should do to make it Eso?
01:31:46 <adu> Eso nirvanna? is there such a thing?
01:32:07 <adu> oh, I get it, eso nirvanna = hell
01:33:30 <quintopia> i think it will be accepted in my lifetime, since it has different shades of meaning than exclude
01:34:16 <boily> An esoptimal language is asymptotic.
01:34:17 <quintopia> "just because we didnt include you doesnt mean we /excluded/ you"
01:34:39 <boily> seen like that, disincluded has to exist.
01:45:19 <oerjan> some day, it will no longer be disincluded from the dictionary
01:52:00 <zzo38> Another kind of INTERCAL that I made up is stuff like: MAYBE DO NOT COME FROM CHOICE
01:52:42 <zzo38> (where CHOICE represents the choicepoint stack)
01:52:51 * adu *mind blown*
01:53:55 <adu> https://youtu.be/NxC4sGpIDTw
01:54:04 <zzo38> (CHOICE is for back-tracking and LIFE is for front-tracking; I don't know how front-tracking is working though!)
01:54:48 <boily> @tell quintopia the language is quite nice! I got distracted by golly >_>'...
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01:56:25 <hppavilion[1]> I see that sequence above me as "boily's last wish was to tell quintopia that the language is good, before he entered an irreversible spiral into the world of Golly, where he would meet his demise. Time of death: 16:55:00 on 2015-11-06."
01:58:23 <oerjan> it's a little known fact that the game of life contains black holes that suck you in
02:00:33 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: in the real projective plane, I knew that
02:01:07 <adu> oerjan: it's a little known fact that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram's_2-state_3-symbol_Turing_machine is the smallest universal Turing machine
02:02:09 <hppavilion[1]> INTERCOM's metaphors are all related to fishing for some reason
02:03:42 <oerjan> adu: exercise: starting from that page, find ais523's middle name
02:03:55 <adu> I don't know ais523's middle name
02:04:45 <oerjan> well that would be telling.
02:06:11 <oerjan> actually his last name is Smith hth
02:06:25 <oerjan> (that should be enough of a hint)
02:09:39 <oerjan> the exercise wasn't about guessing btw
02:10:01 <oerjan> but about digging out evidence.
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02:17:03 <adu> oerjan: found it: "I/O"
02:17:15 <adu> Alex I/O Smith
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02:19:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45150&oldid=45145 * SuperJedi224 * (+128)
02:19:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45151&oldid=45150 * SuperJedi224 * (+98)
02:24:30 <adu> oerjan: is it infinite?
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02:35:37 <oerjan> i seem to recall i said this was not about guessing.
02:40:06 <adu> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/engine?user=4464;list=wiki
02:41:07 <oerjan> and in an unexpected way, too
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02:42:43 <hppavilion[1]> I can only have commands with a single argument the way the data model works
02:42:55 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I'm writing a language like that
02:43:42 <hppavilion[1]> I want to have advanced commands in the same vein as grep and such to be possible, but I don't know how
02:43:53 <adu> there are only two commands <keyword>! { <block> } and <keyword> <expr>? { <block> }
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02:45:16 <adu> and the way I solved it was to add parentheses
02:47:02 <hppavilion[1]> The language's data model is fairly complex: An infinite array of deques, an accumulator stack, and a scalar intermediate accumulator through which all inbound and outbound data much cross
02:47:45 <hppavilion[1]> And I've backed myself into a corner by making it scalar. Now I don't know how to have multi-argument functions
02:47:57 <hppavilion[1]> And I don't see how to fix it by making it an array
02:48:46 <hppavilion[1]> And I can't make it a stack, because it has to hold data even when one uses data from it
02:48:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45152&oldid=34258 * SuperJedi224 * (+110)
02:50:16 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I prefer belts to stacks
02:51:07 <adu> belts are stacks with a fixed size
02:53:23 <adu> technically all stacks are belts, but they're belts of length 100 MiB, whereas most belts are of length 16 or so
02:53:38 <adu> hppavilion[1]: nope
02:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, the data model of a 2Queue is a queue of queues
02:54:43 <hppavilion[1]> When you dequeue an element, you're really dequeuing a queue, dequeuing an element called "e" from that queue, reenqueuing that queue, then returning e.
02:56:18 <adu> could be used to break up a queue into a distributed queue
02:56:33 <hppavilion[1]> (Enqueuing is similar: Dequeue a queue, enqueue the element, enqueue the new queue)
02:56:54 <adu> like the stuff that needs to be done vs. stuff that is going to be done by Host#101
02:57:27 <hppavilion[1]> (well, a queue*stack, as data structure multiplication isn't communist)
02:57:55 <adu> computing behind the iron curtain...
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03:32:02 <zzo38> I know once when I told my brother that something was not commutative, he then asked, "But is it communist?"
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03:47:09 <zzo38> I think I have now figured out how to do vertical discretionaries with prebreak texts and postbreak texts in TeX, although not how to do nonbreak texts.
03:49:07 <zzo38> (For example, you can write "(continued on next page)" on the bottom of a page.)
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04:04:26 <Jafet> The clean subset of Grossfunge.
04:09:34 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: It's a fungeoid with mechanisms to manipulate topology
04:14:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kleinfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45153&oldid=44821 * Hppavilion1 * (+143) Stargates, why not?
04:16:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kleinfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45154&oldid=45153 * Hppavilion1 * (+248) Utility
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04:37:13 <Sgeo> lol I have a file that says it was created today, 10 minutes ago, and modified in 2008
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04:43:59 <Sgeo> Copied an old file to my desktop
04:46:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45155&oldid=45137 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+31) link to GitHub
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04:56:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:CakeProphet]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45156 * Hppavilion1 * (+175) EsOS
04:58:27 <zzo38> Why is the spacing of the output of the "wc" command different when the input is redirected from a file as it is when redirected from a pipe?
05:07:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45157&oldid=45155 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+115) categories
05:09:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45158&oldid=45126 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+13) /* D */ DStack
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05:23:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45159&oldid=45123 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+102) DStack
05:32:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45160&oldid=44349 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+37) DStack
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06:40:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45161&oldid=45116 * Quintopia * (+1421) Made explicit the (random) way marked cells behave under symmetries. Added prefix to prevent marked cell permutation.
07:02:51 <Jafet> `` wc <canary; cat canary | wc
07:03:32 <Jafet> `` wc <(cat canary)
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07:39:26 <HackEgo> 00000000 53 70 6a c3 a6 74 74 21 0a |Spj..tt!.| \ 00000009
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08:42:11 <mroman> Why isn't it ##esoteric btw?
09:05:08 <fizzie> There was some talk of moving at some point, but nobody seemed to be that interested.
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09:11:15 <myname> so... anybody has an opinion about that GI thing?
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11:17:16 <b_jonas> mroman: yeah... we don't want to move. I'm running #jsoftware too, which totally should be double-flatted,
11:18:52 <b_jonas> If someone seriously comes up and convinces freenode that he needs the single-sharped channel, then we'll move, but that's unlikely
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11:32:24 <mroman> git add *.* && git commit -m "fnord" && git push -u origin master --tags
11:33:35 <mroman> This is the right channel.
11:41:49 <mroman> Codegolf.Stackxechange should stop calling itself codegolf.
11:42:07 <mroman> People downvote code because they 'think' it does not work
11:45:20 <int-e> can't you downvote those people... ;)
11:54:10 <int-e> this is nice... class Foo implements Serializable { private final Runnable initHook; public void readObject(ObjectInputStream ois) { ois.defaultReadObject(); initHook.run(); } } ... what could possibly go wrong?
12:02:50 <int-e> http://www.slideshare.net/frohoff1/appseccali-2015-marshalling-pickles
12:02:57 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/docs/BLSQ.html
12:03:05 <mroman> ^- Does that look decent as a documentation format?
12:03:19 <mroman> I'm using pandoc MD -> HTML and some CSS
12:04:30 <mroman> That's not how anything of this works
12:05:54 <int-e> what do you mean .... it's just skipping over details to get to the interesting parts.
12:06:09 <int-e> there's a class name in there, and a field name, and the field type...
12:06:24 <mroman> you don't save a "isAdmin=1" on the client
12:06:41 <mroman> not in a cookie, not in a base64 encoded cookie, not in a base64 encoded serialized java object
12:06:58 <int-e> which is why the exploits later on generally do something more interesting.
12:07:12 <mroman> I'm not really a Java-Expert
12:07:20 <int-e> In any case I'm sure this has happened.
12:07:23 <mroman> but I'd say readObject shouldn't really trigger much else
12:07:40 <mroman> int-e: There were a lot of php webapps that did set isAdmin cookies, yes.
12:07:55 <int-e> Because at a glance, serialized objects look inscrutable, so nobody is going to bother modifying those... right ;)
12:08:33 <int-e> And also, you need to ship the fucking application, deadlines are more important than basic security.
12:09:03 <int-e> (you can always fix that later)
12:09:18 <int-e> ;-) ;-> :-P <-- sprinkle those above as needed.
12:09:46 <mroman> I know damn well that deadlines are more important than anything else
12:10:19 <mroman> We've released two unfinished products as "finished" :D
12:10:37 <int-e> and it gets interesting when you use DSLs with no clear client/server separation in the source code.
12:12:35 <mroman> and I work in IT Security
12:12:40 <mroman> that's the worst part about that :)
12:12:50 <mroman> in the end you need money to pay the developers salaries.
12:15:14 <int-e> Documentation looks fine, but I'm not a big fan of the asymmetric boxes (with the top border thicker than the bottom border), and I would probably try to separate the commands more visibly (is it possible to indent the descriptions of the individual commands?)
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12:19:45 <int-e> oh I came from http://foxglovesecurity.com/2015/11/06/what-do-weblogic-websphere-jboss-jenkins-opennms-and-your-application-have-in-common-this-vulnerability/ which also seems worth reading.
12:23:50 <mroman> Depends on if pandoc generates <p> or something
12:23:58 <mroman> then I could indent h1 p or something
12:24:27 <mroman> nah. that won't work :(
12:25:12 <mroman> I could indent pre elements?
12:25:30 <mroman> If that's what you meant?
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12:55:15 <Jafet> "When Java reads in a serialized object, the first thing it does after reading in the raw bytes is call the user-defined “readObject” method if it exists."
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13:02:17 <mroman> yeah, that way you can do some custom things
13:02:30 <mroman> like custom serialization formats and the like
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13:10:26 <int-e> Jafet: you could do good things with that, like *validation* to protect against malicious modification ;)
13:11:15 <int-e> (but of course it may be too late for that at that point)
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15:03:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45162&oldid=43674 * InputUsername * (-60) Removed dead link
15:09:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Langar.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45163&oldid=43655 * InputUsername * (+104)
15:17:29 <oerjan> <myname> so... anybody has an opinion about that GI thing? <-- coool hth
15:18:28 <oerjan> still 3 days to find out what it actually _is_
15:19:10 <oerjan> next up, get a polymath project to strengthen it to polynomial twh
15:19:44 <oerjan> (with enormous luck, i might understand the proof?)
15:22:23 <Jafet> What's GI-complete, anyway?
15:24:34 <oerjan> Jafet: that's an ambiguous question, please clarify
15:25:39 * oerjan is too tired to think again, and the neighbors are wearing high heels or something
15:29:07 <Jafet> According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_isomorphism_problem#GI-complete_and_GI-hard_problems GI-complete seems to mainly consist of other variants of GI.
15:35:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45164&oldid=44288 * SuperJedi224 * (+16)
15:36:27 <int-e> (I'm assuming it's graph isomorphism, but what's new about them?)
15:37:17 <oerjan> there's an announcement of a presentation of a proof that it's solvable in quasi-polynomial time
15:37:53 <oerjan> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2521
15:37:55 <int-e> ah, sounds exciting indeed
15:53:11 <oerjan> why isn't edwardk around
15:54:09 <oerjan> @tell edwardk It seems like I and András Kovács almost simultaneously got the same idea to fix your Data.Constraint.Forall.
16:12:00 <oerjan> and i finally get sucked into getting a github account.
16:14:00 <shachaf> oerjan: based on yesterday's events he is probably asleep right now hth
16:14:40 <oerjan> argh verification email is slow
16:23:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45165&oldid=45161 * Quintopia * (+987) conditional transitions
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16:37:25 <\oren\> Gastro-Intestinal-Complete?
16:38:39 <\oren\> "A machine is GI-complete if it has the same computing power as the gut bacteria of a healthy mammal."
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16:56:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45166&oldid=45157 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+18) Category:2015
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17:13:55 * \oren\ . o O (sofuto kaihatsu jogakuen)
17:22:19 <b_jonas> \oren\: I have a preliminary plan about how to extend my keyboard layout, adding more letters, but now I have doubts about it
17:22:32 <b_jonas> \oren\: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/keymap
17:22:48 <b_jonas> \oren\: perhaps you want to comment
17:24:19 <b_jonas> hmm, I should add a very few punctuation signs, namely × and °
17:27:23 <\oren\> you may wish to have a shift for greek letters. (I just shift into jp and then アルファ ⇒ α)
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17:30:09 <b_jonas> \oren\: I don't think I ever type greek letters
17:30:47 <int-e> \alpha \beta \gamma \delta...
17:31:25 <\oren\> arufa be-ta ganma deruta
17:33:31 <b_jonas> ok, those are easy. how do you write theta and phi?
17:34:23 <b_jonas> (do they say "mega" of omega in greek or Japanese?)
17:35:03 <\oren\> looks like it's omega in japanese
17:35:11 <\oren\> I hadn't used that one
17:35:30 <b_jonas> heh, I thought you knew the complete set
17:35:56 <\oren\> nah, I ha to look up lambda, I had only used a few of them
17:36:11 <\oren\> I thought it would be lamubuda
17:37:27 <\oren\> https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9B
17:37:51 <\oren\> the sidebar has all of them
17:40:24 <\oren\> japanese IME's can also type weird things like enu -> Н
17:40:28 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, and the table https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%AE%E3%83%AA%E3%82%B7%E3%82%A2%E6%96%87%E5%AD%97#.E6.96.87.E5.AD.97 gives multiple names
17:41:14 <b_jonas> although it looks like a H
17:41:36 <\oren\> basicaly, if it exists in the JIS encoding, an IME can type it
17:43:54 <\oren\> jis includes greek and cyrillic, but in JIS they are treated as unusual kanji (double width)
17:45:19 <\oren\> α has the reading: あるふぁ
17:46:35 <b_jonas> \oren\: and do you also have a way to find out how to type any such characters in an IME?
17:48:24 <\oren\> but typically you can find it by copypasting into the search box of japanese wikiedia
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18:06:11 <oerjan> andraskovacs found a workaround for the bug
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18:19:57 <oerjan> Data.Constraint.Forall might be repaired
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18:37:02 <b_jonas> oh, that's not the same bug then
18:37:22 <b_jonas> have you seen ais523 these days?
18:37:30 <b_jonas> I think he hasn't been in for a week
18:38:23 <mroman> by that estimate the Burlesque documentation will span 254 pages
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19:33:58 <b_jonas> quintopia: to look different from the other two o-guys who are frequently here
19:34:37 <quintopia> like #esoteric is actually important or something
19:35:37 <b_jonas> quintopia: indeed, I generally don't choose nicknames for just one channel, and when I do, I rather log in with a separate connection for just that channel, temporarily, rather than change my main nick
19:37:33 <b_jonas> I'm not sure, maybe oerjan is the only one, plus the olist
19:42:14 <Sgeo> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3919
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20:03:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Poop]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45167&oldid=39419 * 93.198.139.110 * (+502) Added "poopOut"
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20:43:31 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: don't forget okplopol
20:48:52 <fizzie> I call them just "ok-star", it's easier that way.
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21:52:15 <hppavilion[1]> My font now supports the Germanic alphabet (minus e with umlaut, which someone says is used but is not listed on Wiki, as well as a capital sharp S because of rare usage) and the Norwegian is in progress
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21:54:29 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: what font? where?
21:54:45 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: The one for WalrusOS, which is the first WalrusOS
21:55:15 <b_jonas> where can I see a sample for this font?
21:56:22 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I have an imgur post somewhere that has an old version that supported I think the full english alphabet, at least lowercase
21:56:36 <hppavilion[1]> Would you like to see that, or should I take a new screenshot and upload it for you?
21:57:23 <b_jonas> (and I should make samples for my font too)
21:57:25 <hppavilion[1]> (OR you could download the software; It's not a font you can use normally, you need to use the custom renderer. I thought it'd be more fun and easier for me that way)
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22:03:15 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: is this a monospaced font? is it scalable? how is it described? I mean the way TTF fonts are glyph outlines made of quadratic Bézier curves plus some hinting, and kerning tables.
22:03:45 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: It's described in a command prompt-like vector language encoded into JSON. It's vector.
22:03:58 <hppavilion[1]> It is monospace, though some characters are twice as wide as the standard
22:04:20 <hppavilion[1]> Normal characters are 14*28; lowercase only takes up half height.
22:04:33 <b_jonas> it looks a bit strange, but some of that might be deliberate
22:04:41 <hppavilion[1]> (I realized a bit after finishing the lowercase english alphabet I should've done 16*32)
22:05:01 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it's for the EsOS, so that's good, but I'm curious
22:05:45 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: the letters have a strangely varying height and depth. "s" is too deep and maybe also too high, "m" is less high than others,
22:06:22 <b_jonas> the "@" is small and has a strange shape, the "&" has a somewhat strange shape,
22:06:27 <hppavilion[1]> The m is actually the same height in the code, iirc, it just looks strange because the humps are so thin
22:06:45 <hppavilion[1]> The @ had to be small for monospace and the & is INCREDIBLY difficult
22:07:02 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm encoding this in a vector language by hand, remember)
22:07:12 <b_jonas> the "6" doesn't look high enough, the "5" has a shape that I don't really like, namely where the vertical part and the arc meets it goes too low, and as a result the arc is too closed and too small.
22:07:40 <hppavilion[1]> It's good enough. I mean, it's legible at least xD
22:07:48 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: the "@" could still be taller, even in monospaced, and the part where the small a meets the curvy part looks wrong
22:08:34 <hppavilion[1]> It's as close as I plan to make it for now; I'm having a friend make a good font for actual printing in the OS
22:09:05 <b_jonas> also, the "æ" looks wrong, it's too wide and looks too much like an "œ" because it uses a one-storeyed "a" instead of a two-storeyed one,
22:09:25 <b_jonas> and the "Æ" also looks too wide to me,
22:09:44 <b_jonas> but as you are probably reading more Norwegian than me, you might know better how those should look.
22:10:10 <b_jonas> also the "^" is placed somewhat low, though that could be deliberate
22:10:41 <b_jonas> and the "'" is a bit small
22:10:49 <b_jonas> the "\"" is a bit small too
22:11:03 <b_jonas> but in general, it does look nice and somewhat readable
22:11:18 <b_jonas> oh, and the "W" is too narrow, so perhaps you could make the sides more vertical
22:12:44 <b_jonas> why would you do that in a font that's otherwise monospaced?
22:13:01 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Legibility; the command prompt is english, so it won't particluarly matter
22:13:11 <hppavilion[1]> Also, characters like that are never used in ASCII art
22:13:43 <b_jonas> and you have a renderer (terminal) that handles a grid of characters but allows double-width?
22:13:45 <hppavilion[1]> And if I made ae use a double-story a it would look bad against the a (which is single-story)
22:15:23 <hppavilion[1]> But double-story a is hard in my current vector format
22:16:11 <hppavilion[1]> (I only have "line", "circle", "ellipse", "arc", and "ellarc", plus a special-purpose command for the squares on line 6)
22:16:12 <b_jonas> it looks as if the "Æ" is narrower than two character cells,
22:16:40 <\oren\> if it's an eso-os there shouldn't be a problem making the widths of characters nonstandard
22:16:51 <hppavilion[1]> There's a 5-pixel (or maybe 10-pixel) space between characters
22:17:18 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: oh, so that's the problem
22:17:25 <b_jonas> then they're not really double width
22:17:51 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: also, I think the "7" doesn't reach the floor
22:18:14 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: It does. It might just be pixels lost at this resolution in rendering
22:19:39 <hppavilion[1]> I have the Germanic and Norwegian alphabets. What characters should I do next?
22:19:45 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: and the same applies to the right leg of "A" ?
22:19:49 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you should do the "}"
22:19:56 <int-e> did we already have the "font of wisdom" in our topic?
22:20:18 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: also the "ø" and the "å"
22:20:21 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I SHOULD, but I'm putting that one off because { was a huge pain in the ass
22:20:31 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Already finished those after screenshotting
22:20:40 <int-e> Ah, "The font of all knowledge" ... close enough.
22:20:44 <\oren\> can't you adapt the code for the { reversing it?
22:20:47 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: even if "{" was a huge pain, can't you just mirror it and shift it properly for "}" ?
22:21:23 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Yes, but I would have to do math in my head, and I don't have an automirror program yet (though I could certainly write one)
22:21:38 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: oh, there's more pixel inaccuracy problems: the "P" has a gap
22:22:06 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: add a mirror capability. it will be useful for sprites in the game anyway
22:22:26 <\oren\> vector graphics are a pain, that's why my font is dont using pixels
22:22:33 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: analyzing => (a) #esoteric , (b) I did it with zzo too
22:23:10 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: also, I think maybe you should slant the "/" and "\" more, and perhaps add a gap into "|" so it's more distinct
22:23:39 <b_jonas> I mean, you already have a "0" with a dot in the middle, so a "|" with a gap wouldn't look mismatched
22:23:59 <hppavilion[1]> I actually was thinking about the 0 with a dot when I was making it
22:24:08 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: is it deliberate that the "." and the ":" are shifted to the left so much?
22:24:15 <\oren\> isn't there a separate uncidoe charatcer for gapped |?
22:24:18 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: and definitely make the "'" and "\"" bigger
22:24:36 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I put them in the middle because it felt right at the time
22:24:38 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes there is, it's in iso-8859-1, ¦
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22:24:48 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: they're not in the middle
22:25:14 <b_jonas> the "." and the ":" are very close to the left edge
22:25:18 <b_jonas> they're definitely not in the middel
22:25:38 <\oren\> oh, i see, the . is in the middle of the character, but there is a gap between characters
22:25:57 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: the ":" reaches more to the left than the left vertical side of the "P"
22:28:18 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: oh, and check the "-" and the "=" and the ":" to verify they're not too high when they're among lower-case letters
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22:28:59 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: Should I just make "/" and "\\" span the corners?
22:29:01 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: and maybe lower the bar of the "A" but that's not such a big problem
22:29:23 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I'm not sure, the "/" and "\\" vary a lot between fonts, it's a matter of style
22:29:36 <b_jonas> so mostly what works for you
22:29:46 <hppavilion[2]> Maybe I should make / and \ have a gap for the eso factor, but not | xD
22:30:01 <b_jonas> uh... the "\" can have a gap, but the "/" shouldn't
22:30:44 <b_jonas> there's "÷" and "∕" and "⟌" when you want strange slashes
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22:31:23 <b_jonas> that stuff crazy Americans use for "teaching" long division in elementary school
22:31:54 <hppavilion[2]> It was an early manifestation of my appreciation for algorithms
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22:33:18 <b_jonas> good luck with this font, and the rest
22:34:28 <hppavilion[1]> (That was effectively conversation termination, correct?)
22:35:19 <b_jonas> not really, I'm still here for a bit, but I don't have any more comment on the font for now
22:35:51 <b_jonas> so yes, conversation termination, but not goodbye
22:38:52 <b_jonas> I mean, oren's font has lots of characters, so I could criticize stuff like the appearance of the letters with caron and the comma under
22:40:18 <b_jonas> \oren\: are you planning to go through the first two grades of kyōiku kanji and add them all?
22:41:57 <b_jonas> do the vertical long vowel sign and those strange repeat marks first :-)
22:43:30 <b_jonas> meanwhile, hurray for Saturday!
22:43:42 <b_jonas> enjoy it while it lasts if you're in such a timezone
22:43:59 <\oren\> it's only 5:45 in canada
22:44:14 <\oren\> er, in Toronto, anyway.
22:44:35 <\oren\> so for like 8 million canadians anyway
22:46:12 <b_jonas> sure, and already Sunday for a billion Asians
22:50:58 <fizzie> It's been very fireworksy hereabouts.
22:52:07 <\oren\> wait, isn't ︱ the vertical long vowel sign?
22:52:17 <HackEgo> [U+FE31 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL EM DASH]
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23:31:52 <olsner> hppavilion[1]: I am not the other one, oerjan is
23:34:36 <olsner> (oklopol is probably the original o)
23:35:13 <olsner> oh, and actually oerjan starts with an ø, so not even an o
23:35:17 <hppavilion[1]> You're the "other one" from MY POV, because oerjan is on more often than you are when I'm on.
23:35:52 <olsner> that's just a typographical workaround
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23:42:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: not in nicks
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23:43:34 <oerjan> also, i've had this nick for decades, so i'm not going to stop using it. i just used it to register on github...
23:44:16 <oerjan> admittedly i'm using Ørjan in at least one place (yafgc comment sections)
23:44:20 <int-e> oerjan is easier to type than ørjan anyway
23:44:32 <oerjan> and my full name on stackoverflow
23:45:16 <oerjan> i found a flaw in the new Data.Constraint.Forall construction too :( but i think it's repairable.
23:50:30 <fizzie> There was an Øjvind (or maybe an Öjvind; you see both) as the name of a fictitious person in a math assignment.
23:51:21 <fizzie> It was probably Öjvind, because they were the last in something or another (I've forgotten the plot), and Ö comes in last in the Finnish alphabet; Ø we don't have.
23:53:12 <fizzie> Seen at the office: https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZAX2xhYVpha0w2QUk
23:53:19 <Taneb> Regarding the topic, is there a left channel?
23:53:32 <Taneb> Or are we monophonic
23:54:09 <hppavilion[1]> The data model for my default shell in WalrusOS allows me to define commands like DROP and DUP
23:54:11 <fizzie> The only channel in a monophonic thing is more commonly the left rather than the right channel, but who knows.
23:55:16 <hppavilion[1]> DROP is SAVE POP RETRIEVE and DUP is SAVE POP PUSH PUSH RETRIEVE
23:55:42 <hppavilion[1]> DUP could, in theory, have an "r" flag that tells it how many times to dup if I were to add FOR loops
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23:55:58 <olsner> Taneb: if you remove the right channel, only the wrong ones are left
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23:57:54 <fizzie> If you subtract the left and right channels, sometimes all the vocals are gone.
23:58:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45168&oldid=45166 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+547) My first quine
23:59:42 <\oren\> fizzie: yeah, that sometimes happens with broken headphones