00:00:32 <int-e> right, tedious, but it can help
00:00:34 <oerjan> hm wait it makes more sense to think of them as edges
00:03:52 <oerjan> and when you have a 1 cornering an edge where the other cornering edge is missing, you can deduce that the opposing edges of the 1 are also missing
00:08:15 <oerjan> that one is trickier to describe than to use
00:13:50 <int-e> that's one that also works in loopy
00:14:25 <hppavilion[1]> Is matrix multiplication defined for matrices generalized to an aribitrary number of dimensions?
00:14:30 <oerjan> it's more powerful in loopy, because you don't need to know the other cornering edge is missing, that also follows
00:14:44 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: there are tensors and tensor products, don't know details
00:15:57 <shachaf> not if you want to understand them, according to some people
00:16:26 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor
00:16:59 <oerjan> but in loopy, you can also do it backwards, if the opposite edges of the 1 are missing, you can deduce that the other edge of the corner must be missing too.
00:17:37 <oerjan> that's not true in palisade, since a corner can have 3 edges.
00:18:11 <int-e> I know. In palisade, if you have two neighboring 3s, there must be a line in the middle; in loopy, you get two more forced lines from the same pattern...
00:19:33 <oerjan> int-e: i also know that. i think that was the first trick i found in palisade.
00:19:57 <oerjan> i also found that quickly for loopy, except for the two forced lines which took me a long time.
00:20:28 <oerjan> oh and it also generates to all other loopy geometries.
00:20:57 <oerjan> for example if you have a triangle with a 2 bordering a square with a 3, as in some.
00:21:35 <oerjan> it's one of the most useful rules that work deep inside loopy, far from the borders
00:22:31 <int-e> yeah loopy has way more patterns of that sort, because you have full parity to work with instead of just one excluded number of neighbours (namely, 1).
00:22:46 <int-e> number of neighbours -> degree
00:23:05 <int-e> (since the former is too ambiguous)
00:23:28 <int-e> anyway, sleep time
00:23:30 <oerjan> and it's fun in loopy when you can follow parity in a long path of unknown edges to deduce something at the other end
00:24:38 <oerjan> so i think loopy is still my overall favorite in the collection.
00:25:10 <int-e> loopy, btw, also has a sort of choke point property: any enclosed area must have an even number of edges going in and out; this is sometimes useful in Nikoli's challenge (slitherlink) puzzles.
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00:26:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think for matrices, "dimension" usually refers to the number of rows and/or columns. for generalizing to more than two classes like "row" and "column" (i.e. tensors) the word is "rank".
00:27:09 <int-e> http://nikoli.com/swf/sl.swf?loadUrl=/nfp/sl-1269.nfp&lang=1 ... hmm.
00:27:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: oops, actually it's "order", afawps
00:28:55 <int-e> I don't recall whether I used that parity property for that particular puzzle instance.
00:28:56 <oerjan> int-e: i've found that one two yes, it's the most global property i use (well, that + non-zero)
00:29:19 <int-e> right, non-zero is the more obvious of the too :)
00:31:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hmph confusingly they use dimension for the arrays of numbers representing the tensor.
00:31:47 <int-e> Oh, interest; Simon Tatham doesn't implement complete solvers for most of the puzzles...
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00:33:20 <oerjan> int-e: does that mean there's a limited difficulty level for them?
00:34:01 <oerjan> oh that link you gave requires flash and i've gotten to the habit of disabling it. ->
00:34:20 <shachaf> oerjan: as far as we possibly see?
00:34:58 <oerjan> as far as wikipedia says
00:35:51 <int-e> oerjan: in principle, yes; but he writes (in the documentation) that for many puzzles, since a computer is better at finding places where the simple techniques apply, people will resort to advanced techniques regardless.
00:36:05 <oerjan> oh nikoli's page doesn't have a way to mark lines as known empty
00:36:30 <int-e> oerjan: yes it does; click twice or shift-click
00:37:38 <int-e> and one thing you can do on nikoli but not in tatham's puzzles is that you can drag the mouse to draw several lines at once... so neither interface is perfect
00:38:40 <oerjan> shift-click is worse for my hands :(
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00:40:32 <oerjan> with my touchpad, neither of them can be completed in a single movement with each hand
00:43:22 * oerjan tries to use the dragging to make up for it
00:43:51 <oerjan> (the moar wasn't a typo, but the zzom was)
00:44:33 <shachaf> the new apple touch pad is pretty fancy
00:45:14 <shachaf> it feels like it clicks but it actually doesn't
00:45:39 <oerjan> wait why did i do that
01:14:29 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll let users write polynomials (or a similar type of algebraic expression) in Kastor using a certain bracket pair
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01:41:00 <shachaf> those are often half-open intervals, i think
01:41:15 <shachaf> so you probably want [...) or [...[
01:42:28 <oerjan> i expect when they're sane, they're at least continuous at the end points.
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01:43:05 <lambdabot> http://www.efile.com/tax-service/tax-calculator/tax-brackets/
01:43:06 <lambdabot> Title: Federal Income Tax Brackets for 2015 and Other Tax Years
01:43:33 <oerjan> (they're not always sane, of course. astrid lindgren once toppled the swedish government by making public that her marginal tax was > 100%)
01:43:49 <oerjan> (at least that's how i like to interpret it.)
01:43:52 <shachaf> that says 10% for $1 - $9225 and 15% for $9226 to $37,450
01:44:09 <shachaf> so presumably that one dollar in the middle just isn't taxed
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01:46:53 <shachaf> why is tax law in the us so complicated
01:47:09 <shachaf> i recently had the pleasure of reading parts of the internal revenue code. it was great.
01:47:28 <shachaf> but of course even reading the code isn't enough, you have to go by precedent and so on
01:47:32 <oerjan> too many special interests?
01:52:55 <lambdabot> ‘pred’ (imported from Prelude), ‘pre’ (imported from Control.Lens)Not ...
01:53:11 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘IRS’
01:53:25 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘IRS’
01:53:44 <oerjan> well that would have shown the precedence.
01:59:19 <tswett> Are there any cards besides Panglacial Wurm that may result in a player following instructions on multiple cards simultaneously?
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02:07:02 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAA!
02:07:08 <boily> what have you aubergined?
02:16:08 <boily> THERE IS A PURPLE PAGE ON THE ESOWIKI. I AM SATISFIED :D
02:19:05 <boily> (incidentally, there's an UberGenes page too.)
02:19:59 <boily> (as there are funges and brainfuck derivatives, shouldn't there be auberginey languages? auberginals? eggplants?)
02:22:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45591&oldid=45563 * Boily * (+272) Add proglang template
02:23:45 <quintopia> i'm going to make a challenge on PPCG to write a Purple interpreter.
02:24:07 <quintopia> Can you imagine how short a Pyth implementation would be?
02:25:21 <boily> I should flash a 'duino with an aubergine VM or something ^^
02:26:35 <boily> (meanwhile, deep question on /r/showerthoughts: “Does a centaur suck milk from horse nipples or human ones?”)
02:34:01 * oerjan is starting to suspect int-e of having linked the same nikoli challenge puzzle that he did on a previous occasion
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02:34:15 <quintopia> "By the time they are old enough to reach human nipples, they should be weaning off"
02:34:16 <oerjan> the final stage gives me a deja vu feeling
02:34:55 <oerjan> <boily> (incidentally, there's an UberGenes page too.) <-- dammit, i only just got that
02:35:30 <oerjan> i suppose not being too backlogged to visit the page would have helped
02:35:52 <boily> I did an esowikiedit!
02:37:04 <boily> chelloppro. I ain't be lying.
02:37:20 <boily> WITNESS THE INFALLIBLE BACKLOG!
02:37:21 <oerjan> quintopia: i'd like to point out that human babies cannot reach human nipples either, without help
02:37:37 <boily> even as an adult, I can't reach my nipples.
02:37:52 <oerjan> boily: maybe you should get that looked at.
02:38:35 * boily likes the fact that he's alone in his apartment and nobody saw him try to lick his own nipple.
02:38:36 <quintopia> boily: i'm glad we agree the aubergine extension is .aub
02:42:10 <boily> you managed to plug 墨 in your font?
02:42:57 <shachaf> those are mathematical letters, aren't they
02:43:25 <\oren\> I made them taller than the equivalent hebrew letters
02:44:10 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm <- they are green
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02:56:06 <zzo38> tswett: In some cases there are mana steps (that includes in the process of casting a spell even if something else tells to cast it, or a payment for a triggered ability, or something else), so maybe there is other possibility too. (maybe)
02:56:34 <tswett> Yeah, that's true. Lots of cards result in you being able to activate mana abilities.
02:58:14 <zzo38> Some mana abilities also have other effects, such as sacrificing permanents or damaging you (and replacement effects may apply to this damage)
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03:10:48 <shachaf> oerjan: why am i playing this palisade game twh
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03:13:11 <oerjan> shachaf: perfectly crafted temptation hth
03:16:00 <\oren\> can I counter a spell by using an instant to destroy a land that my opponent needs in order to pay for it
03:16:47 <shachaf> Not if the land produces mana with a mana ability.
03:17:05 <shachaf> And it wouldn't be countering in any case.
03:25:40 <zzo38> Destroying a land does not counter its ability, and if it is a mana ability then it already resolves anyways. Also you can't cast instants during a mana step (there are no interrupts any more; in the old rules mana abilities were interrupts). Even so it can be tapped for mana in response to the destruction spell (if it is not already tapped)
03:26:23 <shachaf> What if there was an effect that said that mana is emptied from the mana pool each time something resolves?
03:26:55 <tswett> \oren\: no, because you don't get priority until your opponent has already paid it.
03:28:23 <zzo38> shachaf: No, the trigger just would go on the stack, I think
03:28:46 <tswett> shachaf: I think that would be a mandatory infinite loop, because it would trigger every time it resolves.
03:29:00 <shachaf> You could make it not be a triggered ability, I guess.
03:29:04 <zzo38> Yes, it would trigger itself too clearly
03:29:14 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, such as a replacement effect I suppose?
03:29:40 <tswett> I guess you could use an intervening if. "Whenever a spell or ability resolves, if any player has mana in his or her mana pool, ..."
03:30:53 <zzo38> Yes I suppose that can be another way
03:33:20 <tswett> All right, what did I learn today? For the ability "Chameleon Colossus gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is its power", X is determined when the ability resolves and that number persists.
03:33:43 <tswett> All the other game rule questions I got wrong were due to mistakes.
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03:53:21 <shachaf> oerjan: which size do you play
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03:53:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Esowiki201529A/test link]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45592 * 103.3.98.227 * (+9432) Created page with " [[网站首页]] [[关于我们]] [[新闻中心]] [[产品展示]] [[在线留言]] [[联系我们]] 栏目分类 ..."
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03:58:09 <oerjan> shachaf: 15 x 12, size 8
03:58:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Esowiki201529A/test link]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45593&oldid=45592 * 103.3.98.227 * (+619)
03:59:48 <oerjan> of course, it's in the type menu (for the standalone version, anyway, but i recall the online games have similar selections
04:00:06 <oerjan> there's also a Custom option
04:00:17 <shachaf> the online game has 15x12, size 10
04:01:37 <oerjan> hm a version where you have two different region sizes...
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04:04:01 <\oren\> maybe instead of fucking about with fread fseek ftell and fwrite I should use mmap
04:04:44 <\oren\> iirc theres a speed increase with mmap anyway
04:04:54 <oerjan> shachaf: int-e was doing 18 x 16, size 12
04:05:08 <oerjan> oh and 10 x 10, size 50
04:05:22 * oerjan only now realized what was weird about that one
04:05:52 <shachaf> is the weird thing that you have two regions or something else
04:06:26 * oerjan should try that and see how it works
04:06:28 <shachaf> to be fair, that wasn't a very good question
04:06:53 <oerjan> but first i must finish this one...
04:07:53 <oerjan> just 3 regions left but they're a bit evil
04:08:09 <oerjan> unless i'm missing something obvious as usual
04:08:22 <shachaf> how much backtracking do you need for this game
04:08:36 <oerjan> i never backtrack unless i make an error
04:08:42 <oerjan> well, not so far, anyway
04:09:34 <oerjan> in other words i haven't needed it yet
04:10:25 <oerjan> oh of course, i missed that those big open spaces were bordering
04:11:30 <oerjan> oh there were actually 4 regions left, i misestimated
04:12:44 <oerjan> now to the 2 region one. lots of 0s...
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04:17:11 <oerjan> well that was pretty easy
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04:30:57 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps ⁅⁆ would be good for mathematical expressions?
04:50:20 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of need a set (well, class) marker to denote the surreals...
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05:09:40 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm adding an abstract builtin type "DIM" to Kastor that expresses a space, for example, the dimensions of a matrix
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05:30:01 <hppavilion[1]> So I've defined the operator ×, which accepts two integers (or another DIM and an integer, or two DIMs) and produces a DIM of the size m×n. You can, for example, raise an abstract set to the power of a DIM to get the matrix type
05:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... Generalizing modular arithmetic to ℂ (or more likely, the Gaussian integers) could be interesting
05:56:38 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Since no one's answering, I'm dragging you into this.
05:58:39 <hppavilion[1]> I just thought of something weird the syntax of Kastor allows you to do. \ followed by a name is the "anonymize" operator (though it's not so much an operator as a syntactic element, unless I change my mind); it takes a name and converts it to an anonymous name. Consider the expression "x = \x". That's valid Kastor.
06:01:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TM operator]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45594 * Hppavilion1 * (+252) Created Page
06:03:01 <hppavilion[1]> (I just found neoletters is 1000000% easier to read if set to size 12, but a bit big)
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06:04:44 <hppavilion[1]> (Perhaps the TM operator should just delete the variable it is applied to and return its value)
06:20:12 <zzo38> I invented the "traitor scheming" variant of the Magic: the Gathering archenemy game.
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06:24:46 <zzo38> Another kind of game could be draft that includes planes
06:26:22 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: it is meant for size 12 = 16 pixels
06:27:06 <\oren\> if you use a size that isn't a multiple of 16 pixels it won't look good at all
06:30:05 <\oren\> The annoying thing is on mac sixe 16 is the same size as 12 is on windows and linux
06:31:44 <\oren\> so for mac, 1px = 1pt while on windows 1px = 0.75pt
06:32:57 <shachaf> oerjan: i played a 10x10/50 game and it was perfectly divided with a straight line in the middle
06:38:07 <\oren\> yeah my font looks horrible at 8 pt
06:38:26 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't know, i've only played the one
06:40:00 <\oren\> size 6 is hard to read, but better than 8
06:41:40 <\oren\> I should put this info on my page
06:46:29 <hppavilion[1]> TIL that the phrase "best mathematical properties" is used on Wiki's page on numbers
06:46:57 <shachaf> Universal properties are the best.
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08:13:50 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh, I'm trying to include blackboard bold digits in Arithmetic of the Functia, but it looks like TeX doesn't allow that because Donald Knuth and the AMS are both assholes
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08:25:57 <zzo38> Then make your own font with METAFONT.
08:26:19 <hppavilion[1]> I just give up and I'm going to recommend people not use blackboard bold xD
08:26:26 <zzo38> You can look at the existing ones to see how it work and then make the font based on that one.
08:26:30 <hppavilion[1]> It was a nice idea, but it would only really serve to confuse in the end
08:27:04 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: For the Arithmetic of the Functia, I figured that we can treat numbers as functions
08:27:29 <hppavilion[1]> Specifically, a number n can be treated as a function with one argument x that is defined as n*x
08:27:40 <hppavilion[1]> Which makes sense given the syntax 5(x) and the like
08:27:56 <zzo38> TeX allows you to use any font you want to as long as metrics in TFM format are available. (Clearly you will need glyphs as well, although TeX doesn't care about glyphs.)
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08:35:05 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Great. Now that I've defined that numbers our functions, along with dealing with allowing functions to be raised to the power of a number ( f**2(x)=f(f(x)) ), I think I need to define f**g and similar things xD
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08:39:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45595&oldid=45585 * Quintopia * (-10) /* Python 2 */ Oops how did that bug slip by.
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12:25:55 <izabera> http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~trent/gnu/tcl-not stallman on tcl
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15:49:45 <tswett> @tell hppavilion[1] The idea behind Church numerals is that if C_n is the numeral for n, then C_n(f) is f**n. If you wanted to do this particular generalization, f**g would simply be g(f).
15:57:24 <tswett> Taneb: no no, "no" means "hi", so Phantom_Hoover was greeting you.
16:07:19 <lambdabot> from the context (Num a2, Num ((a -> a -> a) -> a2 -> t), Bits a)
16:07:19 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type for ‘e_153’:
16:10:28 <\oren\> well, it determines that some operators are operators just because they are, while others must be surrounded by ``
16:11:03 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input ‘^’
16:11:33 <myname> everything starting with a letter is a function
16:12:47 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Integral b0) arising from a use of ‘^’
16:12:47 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Num a => a -> a
16:13:06 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:3: parse error on input ‘^’
16:13:40 <myname> ^ does not start with a letter, therefore ^ is an operator and needs infix notation
16:14:04 <myname> (operator) is a function and `function` is an operator
16:14:49 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input ‘(’
16:14:50 <Jafet> Give me some $$, and I can make these parentheses... disappear!
16:15:48 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: parse error on input ‘)’
16:15:53 <tswett> Stuff made of letters is a function, stuff made of symbols is an operator.
16:16:19 <tswett> You can use `` on stuff made of letters and () on stuff made of symbols, but you can't combine the two... I guess.
16:20:32 <tswett> Stuff I learned. Copiable values are generally the values printed on the card; additional effects don't matter. If two identical replacement effects are trying to modify what happens to an object, the object's controller chooses which one wins. Also some complicated damage replacement thing.
16:21:54 <\oren\> so are you learning this by going over the rules, or by poring over official tournament game transcripts or what?
16:22:12 <tswett> By taking practice rules exams and looking at the ones I got wrong.
16:22:30 <tswett> Shock says: "If a source would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals double that damage to that creature or player instead." That's a replacement effect. There's also a replacement effect allowing the controller to redirect damage from a player to a planeswalker.
16:22:47 <tswett> The affected player chooses which replacement effect is applied first, in this case.
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16:25:54 <tswett> Funny thing about that neural net I've been training on #esoteric logs...
16:26:26 <tswett> It has learned that we frequently say "Magic: the [capitalized word]". It hasn't learned that that word is always "Gathering".
16:26:34 <FireFly> \oren\: functions are prefix by default, operators infix by default. `·` turns a function into infix, (·) turns an operator into prefix. that's all there is to it, really (where 'function' means identifier consisting of letters & digits, 'operator' means identifier consisting of symbols)
16:27:03 <tswett> So the neural net keeps producing stuff like "Magic: the Computer" and "Magic: the Imagination" and whatnot.
16:28:18 <FireFly> > [xor 5 3, 5 `xor` 3, (^) 5 3, 5 ^ 3]
16:31:15 <myname> how comes there is so few hearthstone talk here
16:31:44 <tswett> So, about Hearthstone.
16:31:49 <tswett> What are those solo adventures like, anyway?
16:32:04 <tswett> I wonder why they don't offer any kind of free trial for those.
16:32:33 <myname> i don't think so, but there's a shitload of youtube videos
16:32:49 <myname> younwant to purchase them sooner or later anyways
16:33:19 <myname> people are trying reno cobtrol shamans
16:33:31 <myname> i am pretry curious on how that will turn out
16:34:42 <myname> reno jackson is a new card. "if you don't have any card twice left in your deck, fully heal your hero"
16:36:39 <tswett> Now there's a card you probably wouldn't see in MTG.
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16:37:11 <tswett> What happens if you run out of cards in your deck?
16:37:48 <myname> on the first attempt to draw you lose one life
16:37:57 <myname> on the second, you lose second life
16:38:06 <myname> repeat until death occurs
16:38:49 <myname> so it is actually a viable strategy to make your opponent draw as much as possible
16:38:54 <FireFly> the second time you lose 2, to clarify
16:39:04 <FireFly> so the rate at which you lose life accelerates
16:39:29 <myname> said strategy is known as milling
16:39:55 <FireFly> I fought a rogue mill deck once, it was awful :(
16:40:13 <myname> mill druids are way nastier
16:40:35 <FireFly> Probably. I only played hearthstone for a bit, got tired of it
16:40:36 <myname> druids zave a card that says "destroy an enemy minion. your opponent draws a card"
16:41:09 <myname> i addition to those nasty murlocs that make you draw two cards
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16:48:49 <myname> i like that game a lot. the rules are simple, yet the game is challenging
16:49:02 <myname> and there's an android app
16:53:54 <b_jonas> wait, when did they errata Daru Stinger back to not a human?
16:54:32 <b_jonas> it became a human at Lorwyn, as I expected
16:55:11 <coppro> it was reverted because of the interaction with amplify
16:55:40 <coppro> I just googled "daru stinger update bulletin"
16:55:54 <b_jonas> now my Daru Stingers are worthless
16:56:01 <b_jonas> I can no longer use them with clerics
16:56:19 <b_jonas> not quite worthless, mind you, because I have made decks with practically nothing but soliders
16:56:37 <tswett> There's no trading in Hearthstone, right?
16:57:48 <b_jonas> I must have missed that update somehow. I usually try to read the update bulletins.
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17:04:11 <FireFly> I think they say it's to avoid unfair trades as well as creating an in-game economy, but I think it's just to encourage people to buy packs for real money
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17:18:22 <b_jonas> wait what… why is Benevolent Unicorn's ability phrased like that? Does it get around Everlasting Torment?
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17:43:36 <b_jonas> Right, when I browse my collection I understand why I like to play white so much. I have a ton of good white cards.
17:44:20 <b_jonas> I should buy good black and blue cards so I can build better decks of those too.
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17:47:12 <b_jonas> Yeah, with "Enchant Creature" and "Enchantment Creature" both appearing on the type line, it's not so easy to quickly separate creature cards from non-creature cards anymore. I have to be careful.
17:47:24 <b_jonas> Luckily I have almost no Enchantment Creatures … yet
17:50:18 <shachaf> b_jonas: imagine how confusing it would be if enchant meant creature
17:56:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, but "Summon" and "Summon Creature" mean creature
17:56:27 <zzo38> You could also try to play multicolors
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18:05:34 <\oren\> what if a cords type was Creature - Enchanter
18:10:16 <b_jonas> \oren\: M:tG has no Sorcerers
18:10:34 <b_jonas> ok wait, it does have sorcerers, by name
18:11:09 <b_jonas> but they have type Wizard or some other creature type
18:11:27 <b_jonas> also, there are enchanters and enchantresses by name
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18:14:10 <b_jonas> there are no landers though
18:14:54 <b_jonas> and no instanters under that name, although Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is one
18:19:34 <zzo38> My opinion of improving rules of Magic: the Gathering, much is to make it more mathematically elegant. But I have a few others too
18:20:30 <tswett> They don't have Enchant Creature on the type line any more, do they?
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18:24:35 <zzo38> That is correct it doesn't.
18:24:54 <zzo38> There is no "enchant" type; "enchant" is a keyword ability.
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18:29:38 <b_jonas> tswett: they don't, but we don't have the guys from 1984 who replace the printed cards
18:34:52 <zzo38> Make deck of all five colours
18:35:32 <b_jonas> I don't have such a deck, but I do have a four-colored deck. I was thinking of modifying it to three colors though, but I'm not sure that's what I'll do.
18:36:50 <zzo38> Have you made up your own cards?
18:37:03 <zzo38> Have you made up cube for cube draft?
18:41:17 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: http://cosmic.mearie.org/tmp/font-sample I'm trying something like this
18:41:58 <lifthrasiir> I had my own bitmap font for a long time (not in general use but for occasional uses), but probably it is the first time I'm seriously trying to extend that
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18:45:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: no cube, and only very few own cards
18:45:48 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: great, another bitmap font maker on esoteric
18:46:50 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: whoa, awesome!
18:49:33 <\oren\> holy crap, they're inline SVG's!
18:49:34 <Jafet> SVG, huh. Nice, except for the lack of hinting.
18:50:18 <Jafet> (...except that bitmap fonts aren't hinted)
18:51:00 <lifthrasiir> just for the initial testing (I really don't know how to make a TTF/OTF font :)
18:51:14 <zzo38> Bitmap fonts don't need hinted. However if something else is compiled into a bitmap font then hints should be used. (It is possible to do this with METAFONT)
18:51:31 <zzo38> b_jonas: I never made the cube either, but I made many cards; what card you make up?
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18:58:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: I made an enchantment that gives reverse protection, that is, everything else gets protection from the enchanted permanent. I don't remember the details, but it must cost {1U}.
18:58:55 <b_jonas> Yes, blue doesn't normally get protection cards.
19:02:10 <zzo38> Even recently I made up some more cards. One such card is: You can take two cards from your sideboard, opponent forces you to ante one of them, the other one is placed on top of your library.
19:03:08 <zzo38> Another card is: Look in opponent's sideboard for a nonbasic card, if you find one then exile top two cards of opponent's library and put the found card on top of their library.
19:04:05 <zzo38> It might be good in Limited, because they may have a few cards of the wrong color in their sideboard.
19:07:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's even better in a Conspiracy draft if you find a Conspiracy in the sideboard, although those are unlikely to occur in the sideboard
19:08:12 <zzo38> Actually my card does specifically say "traditional nonbasic nonconspiracy card", so you can't choose one of those.
19:08:47 <zzo38> (I did think of that!)
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19:22:48 <b_jonas> Have you designed any good creatures for {B}? I suffer from a lack of good creatures costing {B}. I should buy some.
19:23:54 <zzo38> I have cards costing {B} but no creatures.
19:24:11 <b_jonas> sure, there are lots of good instants and sorceries for {B}
19:24:13 <zzo38> If you can suggest something I will add it though.
19:25:01 <b_jonas> I can't design a good creature for {B} because I have to see examples for that first, and there's too few
19:26:45 <b_jonas> hmm, there's a dark twin of Child of Thorns called Fume Spitter. I need that. I have an irrational liking of Child of Thorns, despite that it's not a really good creature.
19:26:56 <zzo38> Name, subtype, power/toughness, and special abilities must be chosen. (You can optionally provide notes and/or flavor text which I will also add to my file.) Probably it could be 1/1 and have one special ability but what kind? I don't know!
19:27:38 <zzo38> Possibly with regeneration (at what cost?)
19:28:03 <b_jonas> I think I need Diregraf Ghoul too
19:30:07 <b_jonas> let's see. Plague Beetle and Prickly Boggart can't hurt too.
19:30:56 <zzo38> Even if I did design such card, you can't buy it; you would have to proxy it, and you need to agree to opponent what cards and other deck construction rules are legal; if you are making both decks by yourself this is less important but you should still show both decks to opponent to see how the game is being played, and switch deck afterward. And if you want to use proxies it is recommend to use card sleeves too.
19:32:20 <zzo38> (My own policy would be that if you wish to proxy you must write the full Oracle text of the card you wish to proxy; simply writing the name of the card isn't sufficient.)
19:32:35 <b_jonas> oh right, Smolder Initiate is a good one, I should buy that
19:33:01 <b_jonas> but the dark one is better of course
19:33:46 <b_jonas> Tormented Soul... nice, I need that
19:35:53 <b_jonas> Gnarled Scarhide seems reasonable
19:36:31 <b_jonas> Mardu Shadowspear is nice too
19:39:52 <b_jonas> yes, they don't print many nice creatures for {B}. no wonder I have so few.
19:46:56 <zzo38> Therefore make up such a card.
19:50:41 <zzo38> Maybe this way: 1/1 ;; {B}, Discard a card: Regenerate ~. Is that OK or something should be made difference?
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21:24:03 <zzo38> You can look at DVIPBM http://zzo38computer.org/prog/dvipbm.zip I have not yet added documentation and there are still some features I intend to add, but it does work now as is; I have used it with foo2zjs to print stuff!
21:26:52 <zzo38> You can tell me if you have the suggestion or other question or complaint
21:29:20 <zzo38> I believe currently it is only for Linux, although the only Linux-specific code is in popen_noshell.c so if you can write an implementation of that for other systems then you can probably use it on other systems too.
21:43:41 <J_Arcane> https://twitter.com/J_Arcane/status/668545293164683264
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22:28:52 <zzo38> Some of Magic: the Gathering cards I invented includes some strange thing that they have not done before, even more strange than some stuff in Time Spiral block
22:31:38 <b_jonas> shachaf: maybe that artifact that triggers in the cleanup step and does nothing?
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22:45:25 <shachaf> What was the text of that one?
22:50:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: dunno, find it in http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
22:54:30 <shachaf> `le/rn zzo38cards/http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
22:57:07 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure if that's the strangest card. zzo38 had designed quite a few strange cards.
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23:40:07 <quintopia> you never told me why you are a computer
23:40:14 <quintopia> nor why you create so many new pages
23:44:07 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: The computer is because I had an HP when I created my first online account, and didn't want to forget my username
23:44:27 <hppavilion[1]> The 1 is because I wasn't feeling creative when I found that hppavilion was taken as a Minecraft username
23:44:45 <hppavilion[1]> The square brackets are because it looks like python and this is a programming channel
23:45:07 <hppavilion[1]> All the pages are because of some deep psychological flaw or something I am incapable of understanding
23:45:16 <shachaf> My first laptop computer was an HP Pavilion.
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23:45:32 <shachaf> I've also been at the HP Pavilion building in San Jose. But it looks like it's been renamed since then.
23:45:41 <shachaf> Actually I was only near that building, not in it.
23:45:44 <shachaf> Actually it's not even a building.
23:46:09 <shachaf> Apparently it's an indoor arena.
23:46:29 <quintopia> they call those pavilions sometimes
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23:47:23 <shachaf> Apparently HP paid >$3 million/year to name the place after hppavilion[1].
23:48:01 <hppavilion[1]> Sounds like something people would do based on me.
23:48:13 <quintopia> please add it to the wisdom shachaf
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23:49:48 <quintopia> `le/rn hppavilion[1]/HP pays $3.5m a year to name an arena in San Jose after him.
23:50:05 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAÁAAAAAAAAAA!
23:50:24 <quintopia> HELLOILYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
23:50:41 <boily> hppavellon[1]. you are now fit to be wisdommed.
23:51:49 <shachaf> quintopia: But they stopped doing it in 2013.
23:52:07 <quintopia> well i don't know how to change pays to paid
23:52:16 <quintopia> boily: are you expert eoughto edit wisdom
23:52:39 <shachaf> Also it's less than $3.1 million.
23:52:50 <shachaf> I mean that it's less than $3.5 million.
23:52:55 <quintopia> well that part doesn't have to be exact
23:53:00 <shachaf> It's $3.1 or $3.25 or $3.35 or something.
23:53:56 <boily> `` sed -i 's/pays/paid/' wisdom/hppavilion[1]
23:57:05 <boily> completely drained. did some volunteering at a boardgaming salon, fsvo some.
23:57:29 <lambdabot> *** "salon" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:57:30 <lambdabot> n 1: gallery where works of art can be displayed
23:57:30 <lambdabot> 2: a shop where hairdressers and beauticians work [syn: {salon},
23:57:30 <lambdabot> {beauty salon}, {beauty parlor}, {beauty parlour}, {beauty
23:57:33 <lambdabot> 3: elegant sitting room where guests are received
23:57:42 <boily> animating special events, accueil, food, grilling panini, explaining games...
23:58:01 <boily> shachaf: "salon" is being used as a placeholder while I find a proper translation hth
23:58:03 <quintopia> shachaf: try a french dictionary hth
23:58:53 <boily> exposition, exhibition, fair?
23:59:36 <boily> I don't want to say convention.
23:59:36 <shachaf> in hebrew "salon" means "living room"
23:59:45 <boily> I think "fair" is the closest.