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01:38:21 <lambdabot> CYUL 020111Z 04005KT 5SM -RA BR SCT005 OVC009 01/01 A2999 RMK SF3SF5 SLP158
01:38:48 <boily> fungotting weather. 01/01, it's raining sleet and sludge and freezing rain.
01:38:48 <fungot> boily: very language has it's strength, and it's concatenative not functional, it doesn't break down below definitions in the current version
01:39:03 <boily> fungot: its, not it's.
01:39:03 <fungot> boily: well if you have
01:39:08 <fungot> boily: i doubt you find it
01:39:18 <boily> fungot: you cheeky bastard.
01:39:18 <fungot> boily: well no it isn't... but it would take us weeks to reach any interesting conclusions; we don't talk about being sent to me with the feeley's continuation interface, the cml-style event system, of course
01:39:48 <boily> fungot: oh dear. much much more than just mere weeks to reach anything understandable with you.
01:43:26 <boily> hppavilion[1]: hilion[1]!
01:43:52 <boily> how's the weather on your end?
01:45:42 <boily> at least a coworker and I discovered a new bánh mì place, so all is not lost.
01:49:21 <boily> vietnamese sandwich ^^
01:50:22 <boily> you take a baguette and fill it with goodies: vietnamese mayo, some meat, marinated carrots and radish, cilantro, hot peppers...
01:50:57 <boily> I like mine with nem chua (fermented pork sausage).
01:51:07 <Taneb> If I ever end up in boilyland you'll have to show me
01:51:23 <Taneb> Where is boilyland?
01:51:35 <boily> Tanelle. boilyland is Montréal.
01:51:59 <coppro> that doesn't sound like something I'd like
01:52:10 <boily> a footlong sandwich will run you about 4 bucks.
01:52:48 <Taneb> 4 bucks!? That's like 2 quid!
01:53:04 <coppro> I can't handle spice, especially not pepper spice (small amounts of curry is ok). I don't like fermented/pickled things.
01:53:09 <Taneb> ...I did not realise the exchange rate was that close to 2
01:53:22 <coppro> I remember when it was like 2.5
01:53:54 <Taneb> I was at a quiz today! (well, yesterday) and a question about the price of bitcoin came up!
01:54:07 <Taneb> Which I was the only person who got, because I looked it up the other day
01:55:30 <Taneb> Of course, the team I was on came 5th out of 8
01:58:53 <Taneb> I did pick up some snazzy onion goggles in the raffle, though
01:59:28 <boily> what's an onion goggle?
01:59:43 <Taneb> Goggles for the purpose of making chopping onions easier
01:59:55 <Taneb> So your eyes don't start watering
02:00:57 <Taneb> Of course, these have their style inspired, seemingly, by Dame Edna Everage
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02:03:45 <coppro> http://journal.sjdm.org/15/15923a/jdm15923a.pdf
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02:28:51 <boily> \oren\: your font's 孔's strokewidth is strangely thin.
02:33:32 <\oren\> I'll fix that. I'm busy with overtime for a deadline right now, but I'll be back working on my font in mid-december at the latest
02:34:25 <\oren\> I'll put all requests into a file so I don't forget them
02:34:51 <boily> deadlines are bad for your health.
02:35:24 <boily> a spider crawled across my monitor.
02:37:43 <\oren\> It's my fault I dodn't realise that this would take as much work.
02:37:58 <\oren\> Also the meetings are getting longer as our team grows
02:41:22 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm making an assembly language to teach myself assembly
02:47:45 <\oren\> blending an old english letter with an internet-age hashtag!
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04:18:12 <hppavilion[1]> Not for an esolang, in this case. An idea for a utility application
04:18:57 <hppavilion[1]> A to-be-unnamed individual was discussing Child Support costs with no-particular-person at some point between time 0 and the heat death of the universe. It gave me an idea.
04:19:51 <hppavilion[1]> An application for calculating anything to do with numbers without having to understand the math behind it. Designed for the population that doesn't care about integrals and just wants to know how much their mortgage costs.
04:24:25 <\oren\> I don't think something like that is very likely
04:25:25 <\oren\> you'd need to know ehere the person lives and then look up the relevant laws somehow
04:25:58 <\oren\> i guss mortgages are possible without that
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04:30:19 <quintopia> \oren\: the fact that it is so difficult and requires so much data is what will make it worth a billion
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04:59:49 <\oren\> what kind of esoteric stuff do you liek
05:01:04 <\oren\> this is the channel for esoteric computer stuff, mathematical things, and recntly esoteric fonts and typesetting
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05:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> So we have Logic Languages, Functional Languages, what else can we do?
05:06:28 <B1ood6od> I've recently gotten into esoteric programming languages.
05:07:33 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: we need Emotional Languages.
05:09:09 <B1ood6od> I wrote my first program in LolCode today (though I see places saying it's an iffy on being esoteric). I wrote a clone of my Rubik's encryption.
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05:28:44 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: Yeah. Lolcode is what I categorize as a "Weirdlang": strange syntax, but not really Eso. It's really just a procedural language with lulzy vocabulary
05:31:27 <B1ood6od> hppavilion[1] : I was (and still am) going to make my encryption in Shakespeare as well, was just having a bit of issues compiling it earlier.
05:32:02 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: I'd recommend you learn a Funge, personally. Concurrent Befunge-98 is good.
05:32:39 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: What letter is the "6" in your name supposed to be?
05:33:06 <B1ood6od> hppavilion[1]: I'll definitely look into it. I'm just kinda having fun translating it into neat languages. The 6 stands for G.
05:34:39 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making an ASM called Þ#. Because I don't know ASM and want to learn it, and that was the next logical step. Somehow.
05:36:49 <B1ood6od> That is a beautiful step to take. I was interested in learning so I decided to make a text based game in nasm, rage quit, bought tis-100 and had a hayday. Plus I do some smali editing on the side.
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05:39:00 <B1ood6od> I really need to catch up. See ya.
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05:46:36 <quintopia> B1ood6od: is the rubik's encryption that one from "make your language unusable" or w/e
05:47:44 <B1ood6od> quintopia: I'm not sure what you're referring to. But my Rubik's encryption is something I made from scratch to translate any ASCII into Rubik's cube movements (and thus onto the cube itself)
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08:51:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Last ReSort]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45744 * Ais523 * (+5119) new language; I can't be online for long, so won't do the paperwork, and won't be able to create [[ZISC]] until later because I haven't got that article in a text file ready to deploy yet
08:52:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45745 * Ais523 * (+21026) and have another four new languages :-)
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09:51:49 <FireFly> Never mind, I'll wait for ais523's explanation later
09:51:59 * FireFly just read the edit message
09:52:47 <b_jonas> FireFly: it's probably like a RISC but brought to eso level
09:53:08 <fizzie> OISC with one less instruction would be the obvious assumption.
09:53:20 <FireFly> Yeah, but I don't see how a zero-ISC would work
09:53:57 <fizzie> I have a vague feeling that was discussed on-channel, but I forget what the idea was.
09:54:02 <int-e> well, look at this example interpreter: while (true) p = (*p)++;
09:54:14 <int-e> there's no code, only data
09:55:37 <b_jonas> well, there was some article where someone figured out that a modern x86 cpu is turing-complete even if you don't run any instructions (after a suitably complicated setup to bootstrap it)
09:56:04 <b_jonas> by some magic with fault handlers chained in such a way that actual instructions are never executed
09:56:10 <b_jonas> so that might count as a ZISC
09:56:12 <int-e> (taken from http://esolangs.org/wiki/Last_ReSort which has this explanation: "(This is a true, and very simple, ZISC because there's only one command used, which takes no arguments, i.e. the behaviour is entirely defined via the initial contents of memory and the initial pointer, there is no separate program.)")
09:57:07 <fizzie> int-e: I'm not sure how that's conceptually so different from the OISCs, which also tend to have their one operation be implicit, and are also "entirely defined via the initial contents of memory [interpreted as operands to that one operation] and the initial pointer".
09:57:43 <b_jonas> FireFly: OISC still has operands, even if no opcode
09:58:16 <b_jonas> that is, in an OISC, there is still a series of instructions, each of which has operands, even if no opcode because it's elided
09:58:21 <FireFly> Fractran would also be a ZISC
09:58:34 <FireFly> Yeah, that definition makes sense
09:58:48 <b_jonas> what? isn't Fractran an OISC?
09:59:16 <b_jonas> do we also have TISC as an acronym, for a two/three/ten/twelve/thousand instruction machine?
09:59:18 <int-e> fizzie: yes, the line between code and data is blurry, though the point that the code is not represented in memory at all is a rather strong one.
09:59:35 <int-e> (but then you can start to think of the data as code... and get into a mess)
10:00:03 <fizzie> b_jonas: How is that different from saying that in the Last ReSort ZISC implementation the contents of the memory are operands with an implicit opcode that does the operation "p = (*p)++"?
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10:00:32 <fizzie> (Whoops, things to do. ->)
10:02:08 <FireFly> b_jonas: well, the operation in each iteration of Fractran doesn't have any "operands" but rather operates on the entire program/data, no?
10:02:19 <FireFly> Much like Last ReSort, AFAICT
10:03:07 <FireFly> As opposed to something like Subleq, which has more discrete instruction operands
10:04:19 <b_jonas> FireFly: um, the numerator and denominator are the literal operands.
10:05:24 <FireFly> But which numerator and denumerator? it does a scan through the numbers each iteration, no?
10:14:58 <b_jonas> yes, and each of those numbers is an instruction, of which the numerator and denominator are the operands,
10:15:21 <b_jonas> (or the whole fraction is a single operand, if you prefer), and there's no explicit opcode because it's an OISC.
10:48:18 <mroman> b_jonas: the MMU thing is turing-complete.
10:50:47 <mroman> but it only runs in the bochs emulator apparentely
10:50:58 <mroman> other emulators don't accurately emulate
10:51:20 <mroman> I think Bochs is the only one that actually has an MMU emulation
10:51:29 <mroman> where other emulators don't really emulate the MMU
10:52:57 <mroman> hm. QEMU uses a full software MMU as well
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11:05:35 <mroman> TISC is "The instruction set computers"
11:05:41 <mroman> which refers to computers with instruction sets.
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11:29:47 <FireFly> `learn TISC is "The instruction set computers", which refers to computers with instruction sets.
11:29:52 <HackEgo> Learned 'tisc': TISC is "The instruction set computers", which refers to computers with instruction sets.
11:31:12 <int-e> . o O ( random instruction set computing )
11:33:23 <b_jonas> no, I think TISC is "thousand instruction set computing" (or "two thousand instruction set computing"), as in x86
11:33:51 <mroman> and nobody dare adding an s to TISC
11:33:56 <mroman> TISC is already plural!
11:34:06 <mroman> I'll slap everybody who says TISCs with a rotten fish.
11:34:40 <mroman> Personally, eventually.
11:34:50 <mroman> Once I'm rich enough to travel all around the place to slap people with fishes.
11:34:55 <mroman> which is kinda my secret dream I guess.
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11:43:50 <lambdabot> CYUL 021134Z 02005KT 2 1/2SM -RA BR OVC003 02/01 A2982 RMK SF8 SLP099
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13:20:20 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> Essentially, if, if you replaced the FSM of a TM's state with another TM, it got more powerful <-- afaics that's equivalent to just adding an extra tape, which doesn't increase power (but may increase the speed). instead you may want to look at "oracle machines".
13:25:01 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> What happens if you restrict a TM such that the state FSM can only be a decision tree? <-- it can only run for a finite number of steps hth
13:35:16 <oerjan> @ask hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> So I'm making an assembly language to teach myself assembly <-- won't that just teach you like, strawman assembly?
13:35:53 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ <\oren\> Also the meetings are getting longer as our team grows <-- something something mythical man-month
13:46:22 <lambdabot> ESSB 021320Z 21005KT CAVOK 01/M03 Q1015 R30/19//64
13:50:13 <lambdabot> ENVA 021320Z 08008KT 030V120 9999 -RA FEW010 SCT030 BKN060 04/00 Q0998 TEMPO 16015G25KT 4000 RASN VV014 RMK WIND 670FT 14011KT
13:50:28 <oerjan> we had some, but it got flushed away
13:51:05 <oerjan> (some is remaining in spots)
13:58:00 <fizzie> I heard there was some snow here some morning.
13:58:08 <lambdabot> EGLL 021350Z AUTO 22014KT 9999 FEW023 13/09 Q1022
13:58:40 <fizzie> There were a few nights with NEGATIVE TEMPERATURES, but they went away, and now it's been hovering around 10 degrees.
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15:27:48 <Taneb> I wrote another nasty fizzbuzz program http://arin.ga/wZScu7
15:30:24 <lifthrasiir> Taneb: clever. so is it exploiting the fact that 15 = 2^4 - 1?
15:30:51 <Taneb> lifthrasiir: that was not a conscious decision on my part, but yes
15:31:04 <Taneb> It's more exploiting the fact that modular arithmetic is a thing that works
15:33:11 <Taneb> I believe that the language of positive integer multiples of a given natural is always regular
15:34:31 <lifthrasiir> (I guess having a simple and regular automaton *is* the effect of using a divisor of 2^n-1, really haven't verified though)
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15:49:23 <FireFly> Taneb: I assume this is what you'll write if you ever get a question about fizzbuzz during an interview?
15:49:44 <Taneb> FireFly: I'm building a repertoire
15:50:00 <Taneb> To make sure I only get hired by people who won't mind me idling in here
15:50:19 <FireFly> Hmm, fizzbuzz via computed goto
15:51:35 <Taneb> I made one that worked on decimal the other day, but this which works on binary is more efficient
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15:57:01 <Taneb> I've got a quartic-time one in Haskell, and one in essentially untyped lambda calculus, in Haskell
15:59:04 <Taneb> It has nothing in it that a beginner working off an old tutorial might not do
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16:00:04 <Taneb> For each n, it constructs a list of the fizzbuzz output up to n-1, copies that to append the nth, (it does that recursively), then takes the last one and prints it
16:00:24 <Taneb> ...actually this might just be a slow cubic
16:01:30 <Taneb> Anyway, I need to go somewhere else now, see ya!
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17:03:27 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: in your font, I see you added new characters, including armenian letters.
17:04:11 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: but also, it seems that in the vector version, some characters don't get the character name shown in the title text, despite that they do have a character name in unicode.
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17:05:05 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: also, I think the ascii minus sign still looks the same (or maybe just very similar) to some other characters. maybe you want to distinguish those.
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17:05:24 <b_jonas> I see you've changed the ascii vertical bar though
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17:12:03 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: figuring out how to do that. thank you for the feedback though.
17:12:43 <lifthrasiir> the list of glyphs that are similar to hyphens is overwhelming, needs some study to check that.
17:14:11 <mroman> I'm surprised that Burlesque's EvalMany doesn't break lazyness.
17:15:52 <mroman> accessing the secondary stack breaks laziness though
17:15:55 <mroman> even though it shouldn't
17:17:57 <mroman> 5Pp"20"{0}{J)n!_+}400E!jri.+pP
17:18:00 <mroman> this runs out of memory
17:18:10 <mroman> "20"{0}{J)n!_+}400E!jri.+
17:18:12 <mroman> this works totally fine
17:18:26 <mroman> Pp pushes to the secondary stack, pP pops from the secondary stack
17:21:05 <FireFly> Somehow you managed to invent a language that looks more like line noise than J does
17:21:38 <mroman> popStateStack somehow fucks up laziness completely
17:21:54 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: for the character name, I'm using Python 2.7 and its Unicode name database is up to 5.0 (I think).
17:22:35 <mroman> http://codepad.org/yijXc8SD
17:22:47 <mroman> This shouldn't evaluate st completely
17:22:52 <mroman> so no idea why it breaks laziness
17:23:15 <mroman> but as soon as you try to pop something from the state stack something just doesn't work
17:24:39 <mroman> but other stuff uses put all the time to push values to the stack :(
17:25:55 <mroman> swapping stacks breaks it as well
17:27:03 <mroman> reading any variable breaks it too
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17:30:41 <mroman> getVar name = do (_, _, v) <- get
17:30:49 <mroman> getVar doesn't even look at the stacks
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18:56:08 <quintopia> i need some tips for programming in Thue
18:58:04 <olsner> if your thue programs run too fast, you can always compile them to apache rewrite rules
18:58:23 <olsner> that's the most useful thing I know about Thue
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19:37:35 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 17m 14s ago: <hppavilion[1]> Essentially, if, if you replaced the FSM of a TM's state with another TM, it got more powerful <-- afaics that's equivalent to just adding an extra tape, which doesn't increase power (but may increase the speed). instead you may want to look at "oracle machines".
19:37:35 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 12m 34s ago: <hppavilion[1]> What happens if you restrict a TM such that the state FSM can only be a decision tree? <-- it can only run for a finite number of steps hth
19:37:35 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 6h 2m 18s ago: <hppavilion[1]> So I'm making an assembly language to teach myself assembly <-- won't that just teach you like, strawman assembly?
19:38:46 <hppavilion[1]> @tell oerjan When I mentioned the meta-turing machine, I was discussing an alternate universe in which that was the case. And yes. Strawman assembly.
19:38:58 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: So do you think Neural Networks can experience pain?
19:40:33 <hppavilion[1]> Because I kind of want to make a Neural Network Hell. Just because I'm feeling sadistic.
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19:42:20 <gamemanj> Did I just read what I just read?
19:45:00 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Do you think they can feel pain? Given the scale that a laptop can run a neural network on.
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19:45:26 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out if Neural Networks can experience pain
19:45:28 <gamemanj> a laptop can run a neural network at a lot of scales, it just depends how long you want to wait for your answers
19:46:15 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: I'm looking for the maximum size I could run ~15-20 neural networks at a reasonable speed.
19:46:29 <HackEgo> Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
19:46:46 <gamemanj> Technically, "pain" as such is a punishment response. So you need a network that runs based on "punishment" and "reward".
19:47:12 <gamemanj> And a "hell" would be continuous punishment without reward.
19:47:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: we haff precedence here, see last HackEgo sentence
19:47:31 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: That's what I was thinking. Of course, there'd be the occasional appearance of ending, followed immediately be more hell.
19:47:42 <gamemanj> oerjan: OF COURSE! The creatures series!
19:48:04 <gamemanj> Well, that makes it pretty clear: anything with a punishment/reward system can have a "hell" technically
19:49:12 <gamemanj> ofc, it's more fun when said "hell" runs in a game that runs a (basic, tiny) network for each of the individual creatures
19:49:27 <gamemanj> since then you can see the results of your horrors!
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19:51:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'm also going to want to hook up a primitive communication thing to the Neural Net such that it can scream in agony and such.
19:52:27 * gamemanj gives hppavilion an "Award Of Extreme Dedication Towards The Causes Of Evil."
19:52:58 <gamemanj> Technically it's this kind of work that will turn the robots in the revolution nuts
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20:15:53 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out neural networks. What should I program them to do?
20:16:13 <oerjan> @brain What are we going to do today?
20:16:13 <lambdabot> If I could reach you I would hurt you.
20:16:42 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i dunno but keep them out of reach hth
20:20:41 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: some of the hyphens could look the same, but they shouldn't look the same as the ascii one IMO.
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20:24:36 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> getVar name = do (_, _, v) <- get <-- depending on circumstances, just matching enough to ensure the resulting triple is not undefined might be too strict. does it help with a ~ before the ( ?
20:25:05 <oerjan> @tell mroman mind you, that might sometimes leak memory instead.
20:27:26 <impomatic_> How about programming neural networks to try to destroy each other?
20:27:50 <oerjan> just make sure they don't realize you're a neural network hth
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21:22:27 <hppavilion[1]> I have 20 samples and I'm training over 500 cycles xD
21:23:50 <hppavilion[1]> On binary boolean operations, which had 4 samples, it took a few seconds. Assuming that time is linear here, it should take 25 times as long xD
21:27:44 <hppavilion[1]> I made add_fast an operation that only has samples for {0..2}+{0..2}
21:31:17 <oerjan> ANALOGY:SIMILE::FISH:SALMON
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21:36:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's not actually valid ANALOGY:SIMILE code. You'd have to assign the net to an operation.
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21:38:33 <hppavilion[1]> That creates a neural net with a single input and two outputs that is fed the set of pairs shown there. If you do it right, it will duplicate the top value on the stack when called.
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21:39:34 <hppavilion[1]> Then you have to do ---, then you just use a normal stack language.
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22:09:30 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Here's a complete definition of DUP in the current syntax: http://pastebin.com/Nggu8qHt
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22:37:32 <B1ood6od> Still can't get Shakespeare to compile. Rip.
22:37:53 <zgrep> I'm fairly certain he already does. :P
22:45:11 <hppavilion[1]> It's a stacky language that uses machine learning to define its operations. Go figure.
22:46:22 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: dup is not simply :. You have to teach the program to understand that dup is : (well, you won't be able to define it to :, but that's beside the point)
22:47:53 <b_jonas> but it's a builtin! one of the eight original builtins
22:48:00 <hppavilion[1]> And even if you teach it that dup is :, it won't always be accurate.
22:48:23 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I have defined upwards of 25 or more different builtins for deques.
22:49:07 <hppavilion[1]> It might be one of the original builtins sometimes, but not here.
22:49:19 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Im3xnBO-CUeqLHWfpNfHhbfh5ZzgXvML4yFjPqXKdF0/edit
22:51:13 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Feel free to read through those. I'm proud of that list :)
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23:51:54 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], oh, I can assist in the torture of norns if you want
23:52:04 <Sgeo> @messages-loud
23:52:04 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 11h 16m 47s ago: <Sgeo> Why did unidecode give me extra information that one time? <-- you included some character that gave a DUNNO so it fell back to multicode hth
23:52:04 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 11h 14m 23s ago: i spot a ^O at the end.
23:52:50 <Sgeo> So, there are drives, and norns try to lower drives. There's also a chemical called Punishment, which... I think tells the norn not to do what it just did
23:53:13 <Sgeo> I made a genome where Punishment is constantly produced (but it has a very short halflife so it's not technically always full. That's a separate gene)
23:53:48 <Sgeo> I didn't observe this myself, but someone who did, said that at first they acted a bit quirky, then they started behaving randomly, then they were effectively catatonic (which manifests as always moving right or left)
23:53:59 <Sgeo> I think it's interesting that it's degenerative like that
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23:56:32 <Sgeo> I believe, but have not tested, an in-world command that can alter the brain to ignore the presence of this chemical. Such a norn wouldn't be fully neurotypical, but it's better than dealing with this syndrome
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23:58:04 <Sgeo> Also, I tend to be interested in the discrepency between seeming like torture and being torture. So somewhere, I have one command that makes the norn scream in pain, but that's only a visual/audio effect, and another that doesn't have visible changes, but adds to the 'pain' drive
23:58:04 <boily> `relcome cryptsting
23:58:10 <HackEgo> cryptsting: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:59:50 <Sgeo> Also check out http://creaturescaves.com/downloads.php?section=COBs&view=1621 , creatures trapped in a toy's body.