00:00:49 <oerjan> <diginet> I'm increasingly skeptical quantum computers will ever come to fruition <-- i'm optimistic, because i read shtetl-optimized hth
00:01:38 <oerjan> although with the possible option of "will hit some unknown physical obstacle which will _itself_ revolutionize science"
00:02:44 * oerjan notes diginet is 17 hours idle but finds @tell excessive.
00:07:38 <oerjan> @tell diginet <diginet> mostly because one hasn't appeared yet <-- note that the really good theory for quantum computers requires reaching a reliability threshold before you can use error correction at _all_, and experiments have only _just_ started getting past that point.
00:25:06 <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> 1 = λs.0, 0 = λs.I, I = λx.x <-- i have a hunch that representation will be hard to use, especially if the numbers are unbounded
00:25:50 <oerjan> well that's not church numerals, at least
00:26:13 <oerjan> but church numerals are probably not the only possible representation.
00:26:54 <oerjan> you mean n+1 = λs.sn ?
00:26:55 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Of course; I read an article the other day where someone defined numbers as lists of T=
00:27:33 <hppavilion[2]> I basically used church numerals in general but wrote the initial definition wrong
00:27:53 <oerjan> um that's not what i call church numerals either
00:28:41 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Basically, I'm trying to say church numerals but I forgot how they work
00:28:54 <hppavilion[2]> They used the binary list notation because they were going for the Lambda Calcular equivalent of adding on a TM
00:29:24 <oerjan> n = λfx.f(f(f(...(f(x))))) hth
00:29:55 <hppavilion[2]> Because λ-calculus's normal church numeral representation is horribly inefficient, and the Church-Turing Thesis or whatever says that all TC systems can do problems at the same rate or something like that
00:30:30 <hppavilion[2]> Like, if it can be done in Polynomial time on a TM, then it can be done in Polynomial Time in any equivalent system, including things like Minsky Machines and, of course, the λ-calculus
00:30:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: that's simply wrong.
00:30:51 <oerjan> minsky machines have exponential slowdown.
00:30:59 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: There's some theorem that says what I'm trying to get at
00:33:24 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Ah, it's that anything that can be efficiently calculated can be efficiently calculated on a TM, or equivalently in λ-calculus. That's the strong Church-Turing Thesis
00:34:10 <hppavilion[2]> As a demonstration, he implemented a more efficient version of addition in λ-calculus
00:34:15 <oerjan> quantum computers are theorized to violate that btw
00:34:16 <hppavilion[2]> http://useless-factor.blogspot.com/2007/04/thoughts-on-church-numerals.html
00:35:07 <hppavilion[2]> (I was about to say that I secretly hope that the Church-Turing Thesis is completely wrong, to the point of there being infinitely many machines more powerful than a TM, and preferably not following some predefined pattern)
00:35:11 <oerjan> yes, because they can do e.g. factorization in polynomial time, which is theorized not to be possible in polynomial time with a TM
00:35:44 <oerjan> also, i've heard that called the Extended Church-Turing Thesis over at scott aaronson's blog.
00:35:44 <hppavilion[2]> Is that, like, the church-quantum-turing thesis or something? Is there some metaquantum computer with a similar increase? xD
00:36:29 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Of course, quantum computers aren't "real" CS because they rely on the universe being shittily designed and a buggy piece of crap
00:36:45 <oerjan> well the revised thesis would be that a quantum computer is optimal, since it is believed to be able to simulate any physical system.
00:37:30 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Is there such thing as a Stringy Computer that relies on String Theory? xD
00:37:31 <zgrep> Sounds like it would really help weather forecasters.
00:37:42 <hppavilion[2]> zgrep: As long as they enter ALL of the decimal places
00:37:51 <oerjan> "this universe is too fast, it must be buggy" O KAY
00:38:21 <zgrep> "Let's scrap it and start over. Bring me some more energy, will you?"
00:38:35 <hppavilion[2]> If I were a god, I would create a universe in which all problems are solvable in n***n time
00:38:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i dunno, although there's some theory about closed timelike loops from general relativity, if they existed might allow even greater efficiency.
00:39:03 <oerjan> (basically, time traveling computation)
00:39:09 <hppavilion[2]> I would not be a kind god to my universe's programmers.
00:39:30 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: My god. I've been meaning to write a Wiki article on chronos.py, the Python library for time travel
00:39:56 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: The same thing could be said about using Narnia for computation
00:42:03 <oerjan> well narnia's relative speed was somewhat unpredictable. i recall there was a point in The Last Battle where it was actually slower than Earth.
00:42:57 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Should I base Chronos on the wormhole-based timetravel? The one where you need to have a wormhole setup first to travel back through it?
00:44:53 <oerjan> it's a nice way of solving the paradox of why we haven't noticed any time travelers yet.
00:45:21 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: It's also the most likely solution I know of for time travel
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00:46:16 * oerjan gets an urge to link to the relevant tvtropes page
00:47:15 <oerjan> stupid tvtropes has got popup ads
00:47:28 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurTimeTravelIsDifferent
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01:18:41 <mauris> #esoteric will like this: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/67949/3852
01:19:11 <mauris> i've talked about "brainfuck programs whose output is longer than their code" in here before!
01:20:59 <mauris> this time, you have to print an integer matching /[1-9][0-9]*/, longer than your code, and minimize that integer. i don't think the code given there is minimal
01:23:23 <zzo38> oerjan: Then link to All The Tropes wiki which has no popup ads, or disable popup ads, or preferably both.
01:24:14 <oerjan> in theory my browser has disabled popups. however these get through somehow.
01:24:47 <oerjan> i guess it may only disable actual new windows...
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01:30:42 <\oren\> hold on lemme try chrome
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01:32:03 <oerjan> `le/rn bracket/bracket? ¯\[°_o]/¯
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01:48:45 <hppavilion[1]> I just had an idea for the Tower Defence game I'm making
01:50:32 <hppavilion[1]> If random temporal anomalies are enabled, sometimes a tower is sent back in time for you in a crisis. It fights for you, then it dies from Temporal Exhaustion. You have the mission to get an identical tower by a certain point in time and send it back, or the universe is unraveled by the paradox and you lose the game.
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02:02:47 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: But... why does it die from Temporal Exhaustion? Why can't I have a tower appear from the future, and then send the very same tower back (after some repairs, of course)...
02:03:33 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Because that wouldn't be as much of a pain in the ass
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02:28:16 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Well, towers could lose things over time, or get damaged, or something. And have to be fixed.
02:31:29 <hppavilion[1]> The only thing I have coded so far is rendering and about a fifth of a bullet
02:31:39 <hppavilion[1]> Though the bullet is more of a test than a final game thing
02:32:16 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see a "Humorous Standardization" StackExchange
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02:32:34 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, you're given a task to efficiently implement a protocol for, and you do it.
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02:51:32 <hppavilion[1]> http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/93958/strange-standardization?referrer=ZiABwUx2idavPb19oRj8Gw2
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02:54:02 <MDude> Dynastic Title Transfer Protocol?
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03:37:30 <izabera> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4456438/how-do-i-correctly-pass-the-string-null-an-employees-proper-surname-to-a-so dis
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04:04:22 <zgrep> hppavilion[1] who isn't here: Isn't that called RFC? :P
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04:12:24 <boily> zgrep: zgrellop. you should @ask hppavilion[1].
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06:12:27 <zzo38> If you have a technical support service, you should also install a DTMF decoder that can display the number so that it can be use even in case some caller tries to push the numbers into the telephone.
06:20:12 <zzo38> Is there a computer program to emulate a fax modem so that you can send the fax by connecting the audio connection to the telephone directly?
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06:29:27 <\oren\> zzo38: I don't know of such a program, but that would be useful to many people who have to deal with fax-using fogeys
06:29:47 <\oren\> especially if it was an android app
06:30:35 <zzo38> For doing portable faxes yes, although I mean one that can be used even without Android-based system even just use a C program
06:38:26 <zzo38> I mean to be able to send a fax in case you do not have a fax modem.
06:44:02 <pikhq> I do not know of one either.
06:49:17 <zzo38> In many hotels the telephone has a data port so that you can connect your own equipment, possibly including fax; I have even seen one hotel room that has a telephone line on the wall that specifically says "fax". But if it can be done by computer software and if they will tell you which is the internal telephone number by computer fax then maybe you do not have to pay extra for an external call.
07:30:05 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: <hppavilion[1]>I want to see a "Humorous Standardization" StackExchange <-- Isn't that simply an RFC? :P
07:30:29 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Yes, but this one allows people to make their own
07:30:40 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/93958/strange-standardization-and-domain-specific-languages
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11:32:31 <HackEgo> trick/A trick learnt is a trick half forgotten.
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11:56:52 <b_jonas> `perl -esleep$_,warn$_ for 10
11:56:54 <b_jonas> `perl -esleep$_,warn$_ for 2
11:57:09 <b_jonas> `perl -esleep$_,warn$_ for 2
11:57:10 <b_jonas> `perl -esleep$_,warn$_ for 10
11:57:55 <b_jonas> Probably just executing multiple commands in parallel, and printing whichever finishes first. I don't know how the file writes work though.
12:09:53 <fizzie> Involving running the same thing twice.
12:11:04 <fizzie> I keep forgetting the details too, but there are some corner cases you can hit that produce unexpected results.
12:12:10 <b_jonas> I know that jevalbot doesn't handle this properly: if you run two statements at the same time, then the changes in the environment by the one that ends first are completely lost, even if the command that ends second doesn't change anything,
12:12:33 <b_jonas> and the bot gives no easy way to lock or anything.
12:12:57 <b_jonas> So you just have to be careful not to run other statements while state-changing statements are running.
12:13:19 <fizzie> HackEgo's things act on separate repository checkouts, so they don't trample over each other.
12:13:24 <b_jonas> There's a rarely used command to run a statement without state, but that doesn't even _read_ the state, not only doesn't write it.
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12:14:19 <b_jonas> If I ever rewrite jeval, I'll have to change this system to something saner, possibly simply to waiting till the previous command on the session finishes.
12:14:35 <b_jonas> But it's not very likely that I'll rewrite it.
12:14:57 <fizzie> And I seem to recall HackEgo also does a global lock when it's doing the second run that actually does the changes that get committed, so that the changes themselves are serialized.
12:24:22 <fizzie> Yeah, verified. The transaction logic is approximately: Do a shared lock, run the command in a fresh checkout, get the output. If the checkout is not dirty, write the output and finish. Otherwise, obtain an exclusive lock, clean and update the checkout, run the same command again and commit the changes it made. Write out the output from the second run.
12:24:53 <fizzie> Where "write the output" means saying it out loud on the channel.
12:29:42 <fizzie> And "run the command" means spawning a new UML sandbox. Since the only persistent state is the version control checkout, and that's cleaned + updated before running the command a second time, it's normally not really visible that things that modify the persistent files get executed twice. But there were some special cases where you could tell.
12:51:56 <HackEgo> herbalist/An herbalist is a list of herbas.
12:52:05 <HackEgo> mathematimu/A mathematimu is a quantum of mathematics. If you observe it, its codepoint can change.
12:52:46 <HackEgo> ocean/The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. The Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping.
12:53:48 <HackEgo> ngevd/ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswett‼
12:54:11 <HackEgo> caps lock/CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR TIRED OLD MEMES
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13:00:16 <HackEgo> We know nothing about the future.
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16:41:45 <lambdabot> CYQB 301614Z 06011KT 1 1/2SM -FZDZ -SG BR BKN008 OVC013 M08/M09 A3030 RMK SF5SC3 VIS VRB 1-2 SLP268
16:43:40 <boily> Snow Grains ← http://meteocentre.com/doc/metar.html (WMO Code Table 4678)
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16:55:47 <lambdabot> ESSB 301650Z 16009KT CAVOK 01/M02 Q1033 R12/19//74
16:56:38 <FireFly> Sad that the really nearby airstrip closed 2006
16:58:10 <boily> no results anymore...
16:58:34 <boily> it would be neat to have a voronoi diagram of the earth's surface, split by ICAO codes.
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18:47:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WhoScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46034&oldid=46021 * MCS-Kaijin * (+1)
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20:16:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Icezen * New user account
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21:42:47 <HackEgo> pie/I like pie \ I like pie
21:55:13 <fizzie> Why is it there twice, though?
21:55:32 <fizzie> fungot: What are your opinions regarding pies?
21:55:32 <fungot> fizzie: but humans can understand the reasoning behind the fnord. on fnord, i think
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22:02:29 <FireFly> fungot: I don't know if they serve pies with fnord
22:02:30 <fungot> FireFly: of course it wouldn't help in this case, more than anybody on d) ( lambda ( elt) ( display
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22:16:19 <fizzie> Oh no! The diplomat delivering $2.5 million USD to me is stranded "at Airport".
22:17:05 <ais523> fizzie: I assume this is the first you've heard of the diplomat in question?
22:17:11 * ais523 wonders if there's a settlement named Airport
22:18:23 <fizzie> Yes. Also it's a very ambiguous message genderwise.
22:18:46 <ais523> your gender, the diplomat's, or the sender's?
22:18:57 <fizzie> "Send your address and phone number to him today and assist hER when She contacts you for more direction. His name is paul william, he arrived at your Airport yesterday with your package and She will need to proceed to your address immediately after her first delivery --"
22:19:19 <fizzie> Or maybe they're talking about two different people.
22:20:08 <ais523> this reminds me of an infamous line from megaman battle network 4
22:20:20 <ais523> I can't remember the exact wording but it was something like "what a polite young man she was!"
22:20:30 <ais523> (I can't remember the gender of the person it referred to, either)
22:22:16 <fizzie> I can also call Richard Bruno, who is a director. They don't mention why I should, just that I can.
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22:44:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tormaroe * New user account
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23:23:43 <boily> people on our minecraft server are doing mysterious things.
23:24:00 <boily> b_jhellonas. already?!?!!!???11!!one!!?six???6??
23:24:32 <b_jonas> because I might not be here on the channel at the time the new year actually starts
23:25:19 <boily> I'll probably not be there either. we're going to far away places to visit my grandma tomorrow and back.
23:26:23 <lambdabot> CYRJ 302322Z 27003KT 2SM -SN OVC012 M12/M14 A3013 RMK SN3SC5 SLP223
23:26:40 <boily> yes, Shift-6 produces ?.
23:27:05 <b_jonas> isn't that on shift-slash or shift-comma?
23:27:10 <boily> 1!, 2@, 3#, 4$, 5%, 6?, 7&, 8*, 9(, 0), -_, =+.
23:28:09 <b_jonas> that doesn't even make sense. that would require extra transistors.
23:28:22 <b_jonas> it's shift-slash because it's 16 over slash
23:29:04 <boily> /1234567890-=qwertyuiop^çàasdfghjkl;èzxcvbnm,.é
23:29:25 <boily> \!@#$%?&*()_+QWERTYUIOP¨ÇÀASDFGHJKL:ÈZXCVBNM'"É
23:29:36 <boily> (mind you, ^ and ¨ are dead keys.)
23:30:09 <b_jonas> what... is that some sort of saner french layout than the azerty one?
23:30:50 <zzo38> Is it a Canadian layout?
23:32:04 <boily> it's sane! it's one of the two French Canadian layouts.
23:32:32 <boily> I don't have a dedicated ù on this keyboard (ANSI key layout). I have to hit AltGr-` then u.
23:32:54 <b_jonas> (œ is also missing, but I can understand that, nobody likes mayonaise)
23:33:06 <coppro> I use us international altgr dead keys
23:33:36 <boily> Right Control, then E.
23:33:49 <boily> and the ørjanletter is RightCtrl-o.
23:34:55 <b_jonas> for comparison, here's the insane layout I use: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/keymap
23:35:43 <boily> http://blog.docker.com/2015/12/ian-murdock/ ← damn :(
23:36:16 <Taneb> I'm just using UK QWERTY because I'm boring
23:39:04 <boily> just wondering whence the term "ambrus" come from.
23:39:36 <b_jonas> boily: um, it's a name. it's related to some old Saint or something.
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23:40:14 <b_jonas> it wasn't, like, invented by my parents, they just decided to call me that.
23:40:30 <b_jonas> I know because there are older people called Ambrus than me.
23:40:45 <b_jonas> Funnily it's about half-and-half used as a family name and a given name.
23:42:35 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: So that means that ~25% of people with "ambrus" in their name are named Ambrus Ambrus?
23:42:52 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: no, I don't think so
23:43:20 <hppavilion[1]> People often speak "statistically" but rarely "probabilistically"
23:43:34 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Where did I screw up on the math? I did it somewhere, I'm sure.
23:43:48 <b_jonas> it's not that a frequent name, so no, and also half of the people with Ambrus as a family name are female and so can't have Ambrus as the given name
23:43:52 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], you assume that the two are independent
23:43:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you assumed that half of all people have ambrus as a first name, and half of all peopel have ambrus as a surname
23:43:56 <ais523> and that the two are independent
23:44:02 <ais523> the first assumption is probably the larger one
23:44:08 <Taneb> So you are making many fallacies
23:44:16 <b_jonas> Taneb: even if they're independent it won't work
23:44:22 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I mean only people that have "ambrus" in their name
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23:44:26 <Taneb> b_jonas, yes, I realise that now
23:44:29 <boily> I observed a green apple, therefore by the Paradox of the Ravens all Hungarians are named Ambrus Ambrus.
23:45:03 <hppavilion[1]> It should probably be (percentage of people with name "ambrus" in their name out of all people)**2 or something like that for the entire population
23:45:04 <Taneb> boily, I don't believe I've ever met a hungarian to my knowledge not called Ambrus Ambrus
23:45:16 <Taneb> Although I have a friend whose surname is Toth who traces her descent to Hungary
23:45:28 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: that doesn't make a difference though, if you're assuming independence (and if not the formula doesn't work anyway)
23:45:32 <Taneb> So I presume there at least used to be some Toths in Hungary
23:45:35 <ais523> the fact that you're only including people with at least one ambrus
23:45:50 <ais523> actually the calculation is wrong anyway, it should have come to a result of ~33% due to overlap double-counting
23:46:03 <b_jonas> It's hard to get precise statistics because it's not among the most common names. It's probably among the first 1000 most common male given names, but definitely not among the first 100.
23:46:12 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I checked Shrodinger's box, therefor Walrus God
23:46:23 <Taneb> b_jonas, is Toth a heard-of Hungarian surname?
23:46:31 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: assume 1% of people have ambrus as a first name and 1% have it as a surname, then with independence, 0.01% of people have it as both
23:46:33 <hppavilion[1]> What happens if you put a Shrodinger box in another Schrodinger box?
23:46:47 <hppavilion[1]> There's a 50% chance that there's a 50% chance that the cat's still alive?
23:46:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ropy]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46035 * Tormaroe * (+6829) Created page with "'''Ropy''' is a stack-based, two-dimensional [[esoteric programming language]] invented in 2012 by Torbjørn Marø. In many ways it works the same as [[Befunge]], but with a d..."
23:46:53 <ais523> meaning that 1/199 of people with at least one ambrus have two
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23:47:17 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, it's common, although it's usually spelled Tóth here, but many people outside of Hungary spell it Toth, including the guy whose homepage is http://www.vttoth.com/
23:47:19 <hppavilion[1]> Like, the inner Shrodinger box being turned on depends on the outer one activating
23:48:49 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom__Hoover: It's all combinatory logic underneath that
23:48:49 <Taneb> b_jonas, how is it pronounced?
23:50:46 <b_jonas> ais523: right, except there's probably only on the order of magnitude of 1000 people called Ambrus, so the intersection would be less than 1 person, if it was independent. though given the stupid names parents give to their children, there's somewhat better odds that someone is or was actually called Ambrus Ambrus.
23:51:18 <b_jonas> There are definitely some people with the same given name as family name.
23:51:55 <b_jonas> And also lots of people whose given name is otherwise a bad match for their family name, because the parents didn't think.
23:52:39 <hppavilion[1]> (Yes, Hugh spelled like that, not the correct way)
23:53:22 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I'm not sure there is a "proper way" with names
23:53:28 <ais523> "hugh" is one of the most common spellings of that name thouh
23:53:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ropy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46036&oldid=46035 * Tormaroe * (+1138) /* How it works */
23:53:45 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: There is, some people just ignore it because they're idiots
23:54:17 <hppavilion[1]> Luckily, my parents gave me a name that isn't so uncommon that it's stupid and that is actually spelled the proper way.
23:54:42 <ais523> not that uncommon, and spelled correctly apart from possibly a missing space and capital P
23:56:20 <b_jonas> There are a lot of names that are also given names: Balázs, Lukács, László, Jakab, Sándor, Kelemen, Antal, Pál, Illés, Jónás, Máté, Gáspár, Orbán, Virág, Barna, Tamás, Péter, Márton are all on the table of the 100 most common family names, with Vincze as an honorary mention.
23:56:26 <hppavilion[1]> For WalText2i, should I reset the env after each character, or should I leave it untouched so you can glean information about the previous character?
23:56:34 <b_jonas> Crazy, I didn't realize there were that many common ones.
23:57:00 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. a character definition ends with `end=x+yi`, so you can then work from `end` on the next character
23:57:06 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, some of those names have obvious equivalents with English names, others don't
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23:57:30 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, because like half of the common given names in Hungary are actually biblical names
23:57:55 <b_jonas> and the same is true in some English-speaking countries
23:58:00 <ais523> (with one interesting odd one out: "László", often misspelled or misaccented, is recognized as being Hungarian but reasonably recognizable as a name in English despite that)
23:58:03 <b_jonas> Mária is the single most common given name in Hungary
23:58:26 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, it's recognizable because Lovász László (sr) is so famous
23:58:43 <b_jonas> btw, László is now apparently the most common given name in Hungary
23:58:50 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> It's Schrodingers all the way down <-- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigner%27s_friend hth
23:59:01 <b_jonas> I thoguht it was stil József, but nope, all the Józsefs got old and died apparently or something
23:59:19 <b_jonas> name fashions change a lot
23:59:55 <b_jonas> there's always some newly fashionable name that everyone gives to babies, which is rare among adults but quickly gets common in the age group of that baby