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00:23:54 <izabera> when you implement a language
00:24:21 <izabera> what if you don't generate a tree with your parser
00:24:29 <izabera> but only a list of instructions
00:24:42 <coppro> then your static analysis sucks
00:24:58 <coppro> Taneb: have you played mage knight?
00:25:43 <izabera> i mean i want to convert if (a) { b; c; }; d to if (!a) goto d; { b; c; }; d
00:28:04 <olsner> sort of, I think a lot of old compilers worked like that, just reading and outputting assembly on the fly
00:29:15 <olsner> but you can probably make something more readable easier by parsing and working with a tree
00:29:29 <izabera> more readable than assembly?!
00:29:47 <izabera> i added an extra h didn't i?
00:30:14 <olsner> I meant your implementation would be more readable
00:36:15 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:42:42 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It was proven in the 1800s that angle trisection is like doubling the cube or squaring the circle
00:43:02 <hppavilion[1]> myname: In fact, angle trisection is one of the 3 classic unsolvable problems, just like those other two
00:43:21 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Though you can do it if you use paper folding instead of ruler/compass as your primitive
00:45:31 <lifthrasiir> https://medium.com/@wilshipley/the-absolutely-true-story-of-a-real-programmer-who-never-learned-c-210e43a1498b
00:48:31 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: I actually learned of Sam Ritchie from that post
00:48:36 <lifthrasiir> cf. http://www.wired.com/2013/11/twitter-summingbird/
00:49:31 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Also, all one need do to square the circle is construct a length equal to sqrt(pi) relative to another length defined as length 1. hth.
00:50:19 <lifthrasiir> so actually the story is (likely to be) true
00:51:44 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
00:51:55 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
00:52:01 <HackEgo> Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.
00:52:36 <izabera> i just realized that this while (cond) body;
00:52:44 <izabera> should be converted to this if (!cond) goto out; top: body; if (cond) goto top; out: ;
00:52:52 <izabera> rather than this top: if (!cond) goto out; body; goto top; out: ;
00:53:50 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: "C is the language of humans, and C++ is the language of youkai."
00:54:33 <tswett> You know, I definitely would have expected the creator of a language to learn it and study it.
00:54:55 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Though him not having done that explains a lot...
00:55:38 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:55:46 <tswett> It's likely that C fulfills its particular niche better than any other language... or, at least, any other language that's commonly used.
00:56:01 <hppavilion[1]> Best way to encrypt a message: Transmit a fractran program that outputs the ASCII values of your message
00:56:11 <zzo38> Some people dislike C and C++, although I happen to like C, I much prefer C over C++
00:56:16 <tswett> C++ is widely hated, but it also fills its niche pretty well.
00:56:42 <tswett> A person could argue that Rust does what C++ does, better than C++ does it.
00:56:48 <tswett> But Rust is still in its childhood.
00:56:51 <HackEgo> Rust is C++ as designed by the makers of Haskell.
00:57:06 <HackEgo> tswett tswett tswett shachaf tswett
00:57:09 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: you mean... C#?
00:57:36 <tswett> I'm going to tell you about C# anyway.
00:57:54 <hppavilion[1]> I keep forgetting what's already happened and what is yet to come
00:57:57 <tswett> I'd say C# is pretty much nothing like C and C++. It's more similar to, say, Python.
00:58:15 <hppavilion[1]> (Because I live in complex time, which isn't well-ordered)
00:58:57 <tswett> izabera: did you expect it to be called TRIANGULAR ARRANGEMENT OF ASTERISKS?
00:59:15 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: how do you arrive at that conclusion?
00:59:28 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: It was recommended by someone. Probably shachaf.
01:00:17 <hppavilion[1]> # languages are nothing like their namewise predecessors
01:00:31 <tswett> Yeah, F# is nothing like F and F++.
01:00:33 <hppavilion[1]> Speaking of which, I'd like to see a low-level (C-level, that is) language called F
01:00:38 <zzo38> However, Objective-C at least is a strict superset of C, meaning that all C codes can be used.
01:01:14 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Mostly because F# currently exists while F and F++ do not, LTIC
01:01:33 <zzo38> So it has that advantage, that if something is using/requiring Objective-C then you can still use a C code without needing a modification
01:01:59 -!- Yurume has joined.
01:02:10 <hppavilion[1]> Then again, the only devs I know IRL are apple geeks who do a lot of Unity
01:02:20 <tswett> Of course, Microsoft Access is the future of computing.
01:02:37 <Yurume> hppavilion[1] : same to lifthrasiir :)
01:03:05 <Yurume> eh I meant I AM lifthrasiir
01:03:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: notrelcome: not found
01:03:26 <zzo38> The NS INFO commands is not saying such thing?
01:03:27 <Yurume> this is another (mobile) client I'm using
01:04:12 <Yurume> my friend runs an app with built-in IRC bouncer which I frequently use
01:04:26 <tswett> (By which I mean: Microsoft Access is a sort of rapid application development tool. I imagine "the future of programming" as combining the ease-of-use of something like Access with the flexibility of "real", text-based programming.)
01:04:35 <Yurume> I think it does not have a way to identify the nick
01:06:18 <izabera> tswett: ever tried game maker?
01:06:35 * izabera started programming with game maker
01:06:44 <zzo38> I have used Microsoft Office and Microsoft Access before; I happen to prefer SQLite for the databases, it is better system.
01:06:55 <zzo38> And for typing formatted documents, I use TeX.
01:07:11 <oerjan> dammit who was it linked "the internet is for porn" now i've got that song on my brain
01:07:33 <Yurume> the internet is for pom
01:08:02 <zzo38> The internet is for everything. However many thing can done even without internet too, often better without use of internet, but internet is good too
01:08:36 -!- lynn has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
01:08:43 <olsner> does `learn handle 'the'?
01:09:12 <olsner> `learn The internet is for everything. However many thing can done even without internet too, often better without use of internet, but internet is good too.
01:09:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'internet': The internet is for everything. However many thing can done even without internet too, often better without use of internet, but internet is good too.
01:09:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'internet': The internet is for everything. However many thing can done even without internet too, often better without use of internet, but internet is good too. Except porn.
01:09:59 <olsner> perhaps it should've been a quote of zzo38, but it made so much sense encylopedically
01:10:06 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> olsner: We have `tomfoolery for ACCURATE messages.
01:10:21 <shachaf> zzo38: What can be done better without use of internet?
01:10:25 <zzo38> I have used Game Maker as well but no longer do, it isn't as good as other program, because for one thing is not Free software, and some other problems too. However you can look at my game if you want to, I included the source file so that you can try to examine it with whatever program you want to
01:10:37 <HackEgo> sep="/"; [[ "$0" == *//* ]] && sep="//"; [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || exit 1; key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)"; value="${1#*$sep}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo "Learned «$key»"
01:11:03 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, such as stuff that isn't on computer (for example if you want to write it by hand), or to run local computations and files on your computer.
01:11:06 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Also, a LOT of people like to obfuscate their code because they think that anything made in a thing like that can be treated as protectable work
01:12:11 <tswett> izabera: I haven't tried Game Maker, no.
01:12:13 <zzo38> Yes, although I do not. As far as I am concerned it makes it more difficult to port or do other things with if it is obfuscated and mixed up
01:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I am firmly of the belief all games smaller than a full-scale game should be developed from scratch (using whatever libraries/bindings are convenient).
01:13:22 <tswett> I've found Microsoft Excel to be a really useful product.
01:13:46 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: That may be true; I don't know. I can program for Famicom as well; do you know how?
01:14:12 <tswett> Like... you should see the stuff I've done with Excel.
01:14:21 <hppavilion[1]> (A "Full-scale game" being something that requires an engine to be even considered)
01:14:33 <tswett> Arguably, Excel actually isn't very good at doing what I'm doing.
01:14:33 <hppavilion[1]> Excluding, of course, educational games (that is, games developed to learn programming)
01:14:38 <tswett> But everything else is even worse.
01:14:38 <izabera> `` echo 'key=${1,,}; shift; cat <<< "${*,,}" > "wisdom/$key" && echo "Learned «$key»"' > le/nn
01:15:16 <zzo38> Then you must learn Famicom programming.
01:15:18 <izabera> ` le/nn thisisatest this is a test
01:15:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:15:23 <izabera> `` le/nn thisisatest this is a test
01:15:24 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: le/nn: Permission denied
01:15:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/call/cc: No such file or directory
01:15:38 <izabera> ` le/nn thisisatest this is a test
01:15:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:15:42 <HackEgo> usage: mk[x] file//contents
01:15:49 <izabera> `` le/nn thisisatest this is a test
01:16:14 <zzo38> I made up the game "Attribute Zone" which is the puzzle game based on the limitations of Famicom PPU; these limitations are the important part of the game
01:16:27 <izabera> now everyone can use le/nn instead of le/rn
01:16:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/call/cc: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/call/cc: cannot execute: Permission denied
01:17:12 <izabera> you don't have to put it in bin
01:17:28 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `call': Is a directory
01:17:37 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
01:17:49 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `call/*': No such file or directory
01:17:51 <hppavilion[1]> earenndil: Thank you, I was just about to try that, then remembered I'm an idiot
01:18:00 <hppavilion[1]> And it would probably delete the entirety of hackbot
01:18:50 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
01:19:01 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `call -rf': No such file or directory
01:19:08 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `call': Directory not empty
01:19:28 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access call: No such file or directory
01:20:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/call/cc: No such file or directory
01:20:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/call/cc: No such file or directory
01:21:17 <earenndil> why are you trying to create bin/call/cc?
01:21:44 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ blessyou \ bookofeso \ botsnack \ bseen \ bugs \ buttsnack \ ca
01:22:56 <oerjan> <Yurume> I think it does not have a way to identify the nick <-- you can do that with a manual privmsg to nickserv
01:23:13 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/le: No such file or directory
01:23:25 <Yurume> oerjan : well, no privmsg to nick
01:23:31 <Yurume> that is a kind of problem
01:24:21 <hppavilion[1]> earenndil: See, I haven't gotten Linux working on my laptop yet, so I don't know the way bash works very well xD
01:24:42 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
01:24:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: where: not found
01:25:36 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 1492 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 5quote \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ append \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ asm \ autowelcome \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ bienvenue \ blessyou \ bookofeso \ botsnack \ bseen \ bugs \ buttsnack \ ca
01:26:15 <HackEgo> hello-world-in-any-language
01:26:43 -!- groteworld has quit (Quit: ZZZzzz…).
01:27:15 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Wait, it does <-- i should think so, since i implemented that.
01:27:28 <shachaf> oerjan: you should think so, but do you?
01:28:20 <izabera> why do nopl and nopw take arguments?
01:28:40 <earenndil> no, no, it's generating code in whatever language you specify to print out "Hello, world" and then executing said code
01:29:17 -!- earenndil has changed nick to Elronnd.
01:30:03 <Elronnd> I'm also Aah, Ellbereth, Gilthonniel, and realdonaldtrump
01:30:51 -!- andrew has joined.
01:31:15 <Elronnd> `cat bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:31:38 -!- heroux has joined.
01:31:45 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Anybody who puts "real" in front of their handle to clarify that they aren't a parody will, from now on, make me think of mysql_real_escape from PHP
01:33:26 <Elronnd> `echo 'if [ $1 -eq "Spanish" ]; then echo "¡Hola, mundo!"; else echo "Hello, world!"; fi > bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:33:28 <HackEgo> 'if [ $1 -eq "Spanish" ]; then echo "¡Hola, mundo!"; else echo "Hello, world!"; fi > bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:33:37 <Elronnd> `echo 'if [ $1 -eq "Spanish" ]; then echo "¡Hola, mundo!"; else echo "Hello, world!"; fi' > bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:33:37 <HackEgo> 'if [ $1 -eq "Spanish" ]; then echo "¡Hola, mundo!"; else echo "Hello, world!"; fi' > bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:34:17 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Switch would be better for the purpose of extension. If bash has switch.
01:34:33 <Elronnd> Wait, this is bash, not sh?
01:34:44 <Elronnd> that aside, sh suports case statements as well
01:35:14 <Elronnd> but anyway, how can I modify bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:35:17 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIL
01:35:36 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: Did you what happened above? it didn't actually get modified
01:36:23 <Elronnd> `echo "echo Hello, test" > bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:36:24 <HackEgo> "echo Hello, test" > bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:36:35 <Elronnd> ``echo 'if [ $1 -eq "Spanish" ]; then echo "¡Hola, mundo!"; else echo "Hello, world!"; fi' > bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:36:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
01:36:41 <hppavilion[1]> `` echo 'if [ $1 -eq "Spanish" ]; then echo "¡Hola, mundo!"; else echo "Hello, world!"; fi' > bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:36:52 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/hello-world-in-any-language: line 1: [: Spanish: integer expression expected \ Hello, world!
01:36:53 <Elronnd> `hello-world-in-any-language Spanish
01:36:54 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/hello-world-in-any-language: line 1: [: Spanish: integer expression expected \ Hello, world!
01:37:25 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: I think we should probably create a directory of hello worlds, and make it just default to "echo Hello, World!"
01:37:40 <Elronnd> No no, I'll set up the case thing
01:38:29 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Honestly, a directory would make more sense.
01:38:32 <Elronnd> what? You just said it would be *more* extensible
01:38:45 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Yes, but it would be less extensible than a directory
01:38:52 <Elronnd> `mkdir bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:38:52 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `bin/hello-world-in-any-language': File exists
01:39:05 <HackEgo> cat: bin/hw: No such file or directory
01:39:07 <Elronnd> `rm bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:39:15 <Elronnd> `mkdir bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:39:53 <Elronnd> make a directory *above* bin
01:40:10 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: bin/hello-world-in-any-language should be the command, /hw is the language fiels
01:40:11 <shachaf> I think you should scrap the whole thing.
01:40:13 <Elronnd> and then make hello-world... cat out ../hello_world_languages/$1
01:40:33 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: BUT it should default to just "Hello, World!"
01:41:57 <hppavilion[1]> echo "cat ../hw/$1 | echo" > bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:42:11 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> `mkdir call <-- you don't need that for `mk any longer
01:42:23 <Elronnd> `` echo 'if [ -z $1 ]; then echo "Hello, world!"; else cat /hw/$1; fi '
01:43:10 <HackEgo> if [ -z $1 ]; then echo "Hello, world!"; else cat /hw/$1; fi
01:43:14 <hppavilion[1]> `` echo 'if [ -z $1 ]; then echo "Hello, world!"; else cat /hw/$1; fi ' > bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:43:15 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: bin/hello-world-in-any-language: Is a directory
01:43:40 <hppavilion[1]> `` echo 'if [ -z $1 ]; then echo "Hello, world!"; else cat /hw/$1; fi ' > bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:43:49 <Elronnd> `hello-world-in-any-language
01:43:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/hello-world-in-any-language: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/hello-world-in-any-language: cannot execute: Permission denied
01:43:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/hello-world-in-any-language: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/hello-world-in-any-language: cannot execute: Permission denied
01:44:09 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: I think we need to copy privledges or something
01:44:37 <Elronnd> `ls -l bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:44:38 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
01:44:38 <shachaf> I think you should just scrap it.
01:45:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nooo: not found
01:46:19 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `7 bin/hello-world-in-any-language' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
01:46:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:46:32 <Elronnd> `chmod 755 bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:46:33 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `755 bin/hello-world-in-any-language' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
01:47:02 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Forgot to put it in bin <-- that wasn't the reason, and you would have saved a lot of work if you'd actually read what others were saying hth
01:47:32 <Elronnd> `sh -c "chmod 755 bin/hello-world-in-any-language"
01:48:38 <oerjan> <Yurume> oerjan : well, no privmsg to nick <-- are you sure your client is legal
01:48:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I apologize for what you're about to find when you reach Elronnd and my shennanigans
01:49:54 -!- boily has joined.
01:49:59 <Yurume> oerjan : the app simply does not have an interface for that, or did you mean the legality of protocol?
01:50:22 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `bin/hello-world-in-any-language 755' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
01:50:28 <HackEgo> Usage: chmod [OPTION]... MODE[,MODE]... FILE... \ or: chmod [OPTION]... OCTAL-MODE FILE... \ or: chmod [OPTION]... --reference=RFILE FILE... \ Change the mode of each FILE to MODE. \ \ -c, --changes like verbose but report only when a change is made \ --no-preserve-root do not treat `/' specially (the default) \ --pr
01:50:52 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: the problem is that *HackEgo* is combining "755" and "bin/hello-world-in-any-language" into a single argument to chmod
01:51:27 <Elronnd> `hello-world-in-any-language
01:51:31 <HackEgo> cat: /hw/C: No such file or directory
01:52:11 -!- groteworld has joined.
01:52:14 <Elronnd> `` echo '#include <stdio.h> int main(void) { printf("Hello, world!"); } > hw/C
01:52:16 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:52:17 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: you should think so, but do you? <-- occasionally.
01:52:55 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: We don't want to give the HW code (there's a whole Github repo for nothing but that)
01:53:11 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: We just want to make jokes about what programs tend to do
01:53:27 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Just duck duck go "hello world <langname>" and it'll autogive you the result
01:53:30 -!- groteworld has quit (Client Quit).
01:53:45 <Elronnd> `` echo "SyntaxERR" > /hw/python
01:53:49 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /hw/python: No such file or directory
01:53:50 <HackEgo> cat: /hw/C: No such file or directory
01:54:23 <Elronnd> `` echo "SyntaxERR" > /hw/python
01:54:25 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /hw/python: No such file or directory
01:54:29 <Elronnd> `` echo "SyntaxERR" > hw/python
01:54:43 <Elronnd> `hello-world-in-any-language python
01:54:44 <HackEgo> cat: /hw/python: No such file or directory
01:55:03 <HackEgo> if [ -z $1 ]; then echo "Hello, world!"; else cat /hw/$1; fi
01:55:05 <pikhq_> I personally kinda prefer the (also valid) headerless C "hello world": int main() { int puts(const char*);puts("Hello, world!"); }
01:55:12 <Elronnd> sed 's/\/hw/hw' bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:55:26 <Elronnd> `` sed 's/\/hw/hw' bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:55:28 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 9: unterminated `s' command
01:55:43 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Also, you need -i for sed to write to the file
01:56:51 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed -i 's/\/hw/..\/hw/' bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:57:03 <HackEgo> cat: ../hw/python: No such file or directory
01:57:04 * izabera didn't know that you can declare functions in other functions in c
01:57:41 <boily> welcome to C. you can do anything in C. the only limit is you.
01:57:49 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: I think that paths are relevant to the directory *you* are in, not that the program is in
01:58:02 <boily> hppavellon[1]. please refrain from imaginarifying bottles twh
01:58:16 <Elronnd> `` sed -i 's/..\///g' bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:58:28 <Elronnd> `hello-world-in-any-language python
01:58:30 <HackEgo> cat: python: No such file or directory
01:58:36 <shachaf> what's the idea of all this?
01:58:44 <Elronnd> `cat bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:58:45 <HackEgo> if [ -z $1 ]; then echo "Hello, world!"; else cat $1; fi
01:58:45 <shachaf> is it meant to be funny or what?
01:59:17 <Elronnd> but because I didn't say that, I'm better than other people
01:59:22 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed 's/$1/hw\/$1' bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:59:23 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 11: unterminated `s' command
01:59:28 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed 's/$1/hw\/$1/' bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:59:29 <HackEgo> if [ -z hw/$1 ]; then echo "Hello, world!"; else cat $1; fi
01:59:48 <pikhq_> hppavilion[1]: You are only allowed to declare a standard function without including the header if you can declare it without using types from any standard headers.
01:59:51 <hppavilion[1]> (FTR, I'm not -i ing intentionally, so I can make sure I got it right)
01:59:56 <Elronnd> I think we should just start over instead of messing with sed
01:59:58 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed 's/\$1/hw\/\$1/' bin/hello-world-in-any-language
01:59:59 <HackEgo> if [ -z hw/$1 ]; then echo "Hello, world!"; else cat $1; fi
02:00:01 <pikhq_> ... And yes, you can do it from function scope, not just global scope.
02:00:02 <oerjan> <shachaf> I think you should scrap the whole thing. <-- i'm inclined to agree.
02:00:23 <Elronnd> `` echo 'if [ -z $1 ]; then echo "Hello, world!"; else cat hw/$1; fi' > bin/hello-world-in-any-language
02:00:37 <shachaf> but i was less grumpy before the whole thing starter
02:00:40 <Elronnd> `hello-world-in-any-language python
02:00:47 <izabera> the function you declare isn't scoped
02:00:50 <Elronnd> YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYA
02:00:57 <hppavilion[1]> `hello-world-in-any-language thislanguagedoesnotexist
02:00:58 <HackEgo> cat: hw/thislanguagedoesnotexist: No such file or directory
02:01:15 <pikhq_> izabera: I believe the declaration actually is scoped.
02:01:30 <pikhq_> But anyways, the reason for it is because pre-standard C let you do the same.
02:01:45 <pikhq_> And ISO C tried to break as little as possible.
02:02:07 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: if you know that you're making everyone else unhappy, why do you keep doing it?
02:02:19 <Elronnd> `` echo 'if [ -z $1 ]; then echo "Hello, world!"; else if [ -f hw/$1 ]; then cat hw/$1; else echo "Your language does not exist"; fi; fi' > bin/hello-world-in-any-language
02:02:38 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Perhaps we should do this via private messaging HackEgo?
02:03:15 <oerjan> someone should probably have told Elronnd about `mkx at this point.
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02:03:46 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Why do you have auto-echo "Hello, world" AND "Your language does not exist"?
02:03:51 <boily> `relcome groteworld
02:04:00 <HackEgo> groteworld: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:04:06 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: if you don't give it an argument, it says "hello, world"
02:04:27 <izabera> pikhq_: so it's only limiting what you can do
02:04:31 <hppavilion[1]> We should have `gofuckyourself for people who are assholes... Luckily, that never happens.
02:05:37 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I apologize for what you're about to find when you reach Elronnd and my shennanigans <-- APOLOGY ACCEPTED. also someone should have explained HackEgo's basic command execution by now.
02:06:32 <lambdabot> CYUL 150100Z 24010KT 15SM FEW240 M20/M28 A3052 RMK CI1 CI TR SLP343
02:06:48 <oerjan> <Yurume> oerjan : the app simply does not have an interface for that, or did you mean the legality of protocol? <-- i mean that there may be an expectation that you can answer private messages, say for example if an op were giving you a warning...
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02:06:57 <boily> woot... it's warming up... rejoice...
02:07:21 <Yurume> oerjan : afaik there is none.
02:10:33 * oerjan seems to have got stuck 20 minutes behind the present
02:13:46 <boily> oerjan: you're at least 6 hours in the future or thereabout. I wouldn't worry about a meager twenty minutes.
02:13:50 <oerjan> have you considered that /hw/ and hw/ are not the same thing hth
02:14:31 <boily> one's obviously slashier than the other, but I feel like I'm missing something important...
02:15:12 <Elronnd> `hello-world-in-any-language java
02:15:41 <boily> Error in thread '#esoteric' java.lang.NullPointerException
02:17:14 <oerjan> yay you found it out. and i'm _still_ 20 minutes behind.
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02:17:57 <olsner> oerjan: at this rate you'll never catch up
02:18:03 <Elronnd> You can add entries by adding files to hw/$languagename containing the string you want to print
02:18:08 <Elronnd> `hello-world-in-any-language chef
02:18:09 <HackEgo> Combine the computer and the water in the mixing bowl.
02:18:27 <boily> `hello-world-in-any-language fungot
02:18:28 <fungot> boily: the next item. we were literally taken for madmen, for people who live in the most scandalous silence, without the need for detailed examination of the chemicals in use today and the issues they raise were the subject of peace with us here.
02:18:28 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
02:18:39 <boily> `hello-world-in-any-language befunge
02:18:40 <HackEgo> Your language does not exist
02:22:53 <Elronnd> has someone written a brainfuck extension that allows for X yet?
02:23:19 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: There. <-- does that mean you'll slow down enough for me to catch up to the present?
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02:24:00 <shachaf> oerjan: how far behind are you
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02:27:48 <oerjan> now i'm just 10 minutes behind... watch out
02:28:13 * Elronnd sets his snooze for 10 minutes
02:29:14 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: how far behind are you <-- 5 minutes hth
02:29:51 <shachaf> oerjan: did you like the present
02:30:06 <oerjan> there's some strange unicode around here
02:30:23 <HackEgo> U+1F381 WRAPPED PRESENT \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8e 81 UTF-16BE: d83cdf81 Decimal: 🎁 \ 🎁 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
02:30:48 <oerjan> i did not unwrap it as i couldn't see it properly.
02:33:44 <boily> swatter polish? like paste you rub on your swatter to make it shine and go faster?
02:34:31 <oerjan> sure, subsonic swatters are _so_ 2015.
02:34:33 <shachaf> boily: if you're not careful oerjan will use his swatter canadian on you
02:35:07 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access hw/*ask*: No such file or directory
02:36:59 * boily hides from oerjan's hypersonic swatter
02:37:00 <shachaf> i'm so confusing that oerjan doesn't even know which swatter to use on me
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02:37:27 <zzo38> I am trying to write a JavaScript program that can communicate with Xlib
02:41:04 <HackEgo> brainfuck \ c \ chef \ java \ python \ shakespeare
02:42:02 <zzo38> Communicating with Xlib would be silly to do in the browser I expect (you can use XUL and/or HTML instead in such a case)
02:43:09 <Elronnd> yeah, just checking you weren't trying to do something ludicrous
02:43:26 <Elronnd> would it even be possible to do it from the browseR?
02:44:05 <zzo38> Possibly in a privileged context (not a webpage), although I don't know for sure
02:50:54 <zzo38> Since I could not figure out how to properly make up a plugin, I decide instead to use a program written in C that it is used by pipe with the JavaScript program; it may also later to implement things other than Xlib also in the same C code and JavaScript module that would call it, such as music, and possibly partially SQLite, possibly also a few others
02:52:21 <shachaf> zzo38: If you want to use a pipe you could connect to the X server directly and communicate using the X protocol.
02:53:56 <shachaf> zzo38: Here's a library: https://github.com/sidorares/node-x11
02:54:40 <zzo38> shachaf: I am aware of that, but I would find it easier to just use Xlib. That node-x11 package seems a bit incomplete and some documentation missing too as far as I can tell; I have looked at it. Anyways I do intend to later add music as well, so it isn't only Xlib anyways
02:55:28 <zzo38> I don't even know if that package supports X Resource Manager functions?
02:59:25 <zzo38> I can then make Athena-like widgets on top of that, probably the widgets would be written in JavaScript, although I may add a few functions in the C code to help with such thing too
03:07:50 <oerjan> @tell Vorpal <Vorpal> ais523: what about a pure call stack (just calls on it) and one data stack? That is still TC then? <-- underload without a and * can easily be implemented that way, i think, since you don't get anything on the call stack that's not just the remainder of something in the original program.
03:08:10 <ais523> oerjan: I made that point too
03:08:35 <ais523> @tell Vorpal aimake doesn't do cross compilation yet
03:09:00 <ais523> @tell Vorpal although the fix would probably involve separate BUILDOS and HOSTOS
03:09:05 <oerjan> ais523: you mentioned underload without a and *, but not that it had a pure call stack.
03:09:31 <ais523> I thought I mentioned that too (that you couldn't put anything on the call stack that wasn't in the original program, so that each call stack element had finitely many options)
03:10:04 <oerjan> yes, you said the bits, but you said them before Vorpal asked that question so i assume it wasn't an obvious deduction
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03:11:46 <oerjan> @tell Vorpal in other words, what ais523 mentioned counts as "pure call stack" imo
03:15:26 <oerjan> @tell Vorpal also iirc the right call stack in my TM/minsky constructions contains only ! and ^ commands, nothing nested.
03:21:05 <oerjan> <ais523> subtle cough is sub-TC but it can't be far off <-- i thought about unlambda minimalization a bit, you need at least one of s and c for non-halting. i haven't found any TC subsets without s and k yet, though.
03:21:39 <ais523> and if you have s and k you don't need anything else
03:22:05 <ais523> my first thought was c and i, I don't know how close that is
03:22:24 <oerjan> adding i gives you nothing but itself
03:22:55 <ais523> if you have c, v has the /possibility/ of helping
03:23:03 <ais523> without it it's totally useless :-D
03:23:31 <oerjan> yes, but it doesn't, i checked c+i+v and i'm not sure if i finished k as well.
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03:23:59 <oerjan> since i was most interested in excluding s
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03:24:46 <oerjan> ais523: v is not actually _totally_ useless without c. you can program with e and CPS.
03:24:55 <oerjan> and i think the result is BF-complete
03:25:26 <oerjan> (e needed only to halt the program from your deeply nested computation)
03:25:35 <oerjan> e is the "halt program" function
03:25:38 <lambda-11235> How would you read one character and print it in unlambda?
03:25:55 <ais523> lambda-11235: unlambda has a specific command for doing basically that, which is cheating really
03:25:55 <oerjan> hm i think i checked that e doesn't help with c+i+v as well.
03:26:13 <ais523> without using it, you need to read input and check against all possible ASCII characters
03:29:37 <oerjan> yes, when i wrote the unlambda in unlambda interpreter, i needed a full character table for implementing ?x but i could use | to implement .x
03:30:38 <ais523> can you ? and | the same input character?
03:30:51 <ais523> that would seem useful for, say, Underload-in-Unlambda
03:30:59 <hppavilion[1]> What happens if you replace the call stack with...
03:31:11 <oerjan> (which incidentally revealed a bug in some of the interpreters such as the distribution C one, they don't distinguish 255 from EOF)
03:31:34 <oerjan> ais523: yes, that should be possible.
03:32:26 <ais523> oerjan: is that a failure in reading in the original program, or something that happens later?
03:32:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: with enough call/cc use, you nearly have that already.
03:33:13 <oerjan> ais523: the EOF test compares the read character to -1 but it's stored in a char...
03:33:34 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: heck if i know
03:33:37 <ais523> and theoretically, there could be a C interp where that works
03:33:44 <ais523> although it'll fail on most
03:36:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: there are delimited continuations, but i have only a vague idea about them.
03:36:51 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Is it syscall/register stuff, or something higher
03:37:14 <Elronnd> a program will send signals to the X server which will in turn draw things on the screen
03:37:23 <Elronnd> I'm thinking a command to give the character on the current cell to the X server instead of to stdout
03:37:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well i don't know enough about them to prove they aren't :P
03:37:50 <oerjan> i know they can supposedly implement mutable state all by themselves
03:38:29 <zzo38> I have written a few C programs that use Xlib, one is to display a PNG file (it is much faster than ImageMagick) and other one is to make up a menu for window operations (including delete window, the process ID, and signals)
03:38:29 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: You could try something more like PSOX, but I would recommend a complete new set of features; perhaps pbrain with special procedures?
03:38:35 <FireFly> Elronnd: hm, if all you want is colour output, maybe just have . write to the (VGA?) framebuffer and advance a pointer, cyclically
03:38:49 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: I did have an idea for libraries with BF with pbrain-style functions
03:39:10 <oerjan> and also that they're enough to make monads in an imperative language
03:39:14 <FireFly> that way you could theoretically render something complex like text, but it'd be awful
03:39:26 <oerjan> (without extra syntax)
03:39:40 <hppavilion[1]> You use the |<libname> full-line command to import a library, which uses the value in the current cell and defines the functions as that value+<function #>
03:39:45 <Elronnd> FireFly: you mean write ANSI colour codes?
03:40:40 <FireFly> no, I mean like, you'd write the red channel for the top-left pixel, then the green channel for the top-left pixel, then ..., until you reach the blue channel of the bottom right pixel
03:40:59 <hppavilion[1]> Only problem is that the function numbers are dynamic (consider `,\n|socket`), but that can surely be resolved
03:41:55 <FireFly> although I guess it wouldn't be impossible to, say, output a disc or something
03:42:53 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: If you're interested, I am designing a BF-like language for OS development
03:42:56 <FireFly> but hey, with a fast enough implementation
03:43:16 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: You're going to write an OS. In bf.
03:43:25 <Elronnd> Writing one in C is hard enough!
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03:44:36 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: http://pastebin.com/Swiu63ub has an example in an earlier iteration of the language
03:45:11 <Elronnd> Oh, I thought you meant that you had already written an OS in C
03:45:50 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Well, same goes for writing an OS in C: I can't get a cross-compiler to compile for some reason
03:49:44 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: I have not heard of that
03:50:08 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: The one I just sent you a pastebin link to
03:51:11 <oerjan> @tell izabera <izabera> oerjan: that's not very nice :( <-- my apologies but the last few days _every_ newbie has made the same mistakes
03:51:52 <hppavilion[1]> Better yet, izabera: What did mean ol' oerjan say?
03:52:20 <oerjan> berating you all for having a goldfish's memory of HackEgo syntax hth
03:53:04 <oerjan> izabera might be asleep. it would be the sensible thing at this time.
03:55:13 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: We don't have school tomorrow here in `murica
03:57:05 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: Oh, I thought you meant somebody had made an OS with vanilla BF
03:57:11 <Elronnd> I hope someone makes BF bindings for LLVM
03:57:48 <oerjan> izabera is not in america afaik
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04:14:08 <Elronnd> Have you defined a terminal/display in your compiler?
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04:27:16 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what's that?
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04:29:54 <adu> I wonder how you would efficiently compile BF to JVM
04:35:20 <adu> compiling a superset to a subset is easy
04:35:36 <adu> but how do you compile a subset to a superset?
04:36:19 <adu> hppavilion[1]: but that wouldn't be "efficient"
04:36:36 <adu> I wouldn't want + to be compiled to inc
04:36:48 <adu> I would want +++++ to be compiled to add 5
04:37:09 <hppavilion[1]> Just RLE the program and map everything to an ASM pattern
04:37:19 <adu> right, but what if there's a loop around the +++, then I would want it to compile to mul
04:37:46 <hppavilion[1]> adu: However, how do you know how much it's going to loop?
04:37:47 <lambda-11235> adu: I wrote a compiler that does just that in Clojure.
04:37:55 <adu> and if theres a double loop around that, I would want it to be compiled to exp(y*log(x))
04:39:24 <adu> lambda-11235: link?
04:40:04 <adu> hppavilion[1]: it's basically pattern matching on every node in the syntax tree
04:40:29 <hppavilion[1]> adu: If you have a syntax tree, you're probably doing it wrong
04:40:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I'm describing the general issue, and by extension it's application to BF
04:40:57 <lambda-11235> adu: https://github.com/lambda-11235/brain, although it probably doesn't do as many optimizations as you're talking about.
04:42:57 <lambda-11235> https://github.com/matslina/awib does more of what your talking about.
04:43:04 <adu> interesting
04:46:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]> adu: If you have a syntax tree, you're probably doing it wrong <-- if you don't have a tree, you're probably underestimating the problem hth
04:46:34 <HackEgo> lambda-11235: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
04:47:30 <adu> oerjan: agreed, I think
04:48:53 <oerjan> i have a hunch (even though i've never written an optimizing compiler of anything, even brainfuck) that the _really_ hard part is dealing with code that searches around on the tape.
04:49:16 <oerjan> because you essentially would have to correctly guess how the data is laid out.
04:49:45 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Would you happen to know the algorithm for logical negation in BF?
04:50:27 <oerjan> anything that only deals with 2 cells should be optimizable to a simple command in principle.
04:50:59 <adu> hppavilion[1]: nope
04:51:07 <oerjan> with 3 unbounded cells it's TC so obviously unsolvable.
04:52:37 <oerjan> i did write that 3 cell proof.
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04:53:53 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do you know how to do logical negation in BF?
04:53:57 <shachaf> oerjan: you remind me of the man
04:54:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: sure. >+<[>-<[-]]
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04:56:10 <oerjan> shachaf: i think i am not acquainted.
04:57:49 <shachaf> @google "you remind me of the man"
04:57:49 <lambdabot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU9wLjk4II8
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05:01:04 * oerjan has trouble with comedic embarassment
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05:02:37 <shachaf> @google you remind me of the babe
05:02:37 <lambdabot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4gABvUhhkg
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05:15:38 <oerjan> shachaf: somehow that was slightly less embarassing. slightly.
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05:42:13 <zzo38> I think that LodePNG is a much better PNG library than libpng. I think one of the same people who was on esolang made up LodePNG, that is how I could easily found it
05:43:00 <pikhq_> LodePNG does omit some of the more obscure features of PNG that libpng gives you access to.
05:43:20 <pikhq_> ... But, on the other hand, libpng is awful enough I almost prefer writing PNG reading/writing code *myself* to using it.
05:43:35 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: and the same person has worked on zopfli
05:43:40 <zzo38> Or, modify LodePNG if you need the obscure features
05:44:13 <lifthrasiir> pikhq_: libpng is like curl but without curl_easy_* calls
06:12:16 <hppavilion[1]> I'm currently watching the last Harry Potter movie
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06:24:33 <izabera> it's 7:15 am and i checked my email and linda walsh posted a 300 lines script to the bash mailing list and i want to kill her
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06:29:15 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: a bash user sent a bash script that could have been text explaining the problem
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06:33:37 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Ah, I knew I had something to ask you, but I doubt it's relevant anymore
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06:33:58 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: Did you find something wrong with my BF TestOS? From the parts you can understand, at least?
06:35:20 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: I'd send you the documentation for the non-vanilla commands,
06:35:39 <hppavilion[1]> but I'm currently in the process of obsoleting the language in favour of something better
06:37:22 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: it looked okay from what I understood of it. The comments and the syntax explained it pretty well
06:37:45 <\oren\> izabera: did the script at least demonstrate the problem?
06:38:17 <\oren\> or was it a script they just posted and asked "it doesn't work, help?"
06:39:34 <Elronnd> hppavilion[1]: Don't trust anything I say though, I mostly skimmed and read the comments
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06:43:06 <\oren\> holy shit they used canned clapping during the gop debate
06:48:42 <\oren\> or so the rumours claim. I don't see any evidence
06:55:10 <\oren\> Ben Carson made up a fake stalin quote
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07:12:53 <hppavilion[1]> Elronnd: I'm also trying to make a computerized Nomic called λ-nomic
07:17:46 <lambdabot> EGBB 150650Z 32009KT CAVOK M00/M01 Q1022
07:18:09 <lifthrasiir> izabera: I like it, y is close to an upside-down λ
07:18:25 <shachaf> ג is close to λ in some fonts.
07:22:53 <HackEgo> [U+05D2 HEBREW LETTER GIMEL]
07:22:59 <shachaf> coppro: What's the two-nick thing about?
07:23:26 <coppro> shachaf: hysterical raisins
07:25:28 <\oren\> "Joseph Stalin said if you want to bring America down you have to undermine three things -- our spiritual life, our patriotism, and our morality," Carson said, puzzling some observers, who couldn't quite place the remark.
07:27:31 <hppavilion[1]> http://206.174.0.58/lambda/rules and http://206.174.0.58/lambda/funcs
07:27:58 <hppavilion[1]> Now that I know anything about LISP, I know it isn't very /good/ LISP (it's imperative)
07:29:36 <oerjan> purely functional nomic
07:29:46 <oerjan> without any mutable state
07:31:09 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, it looks like LISP does have imperative-ish things
07:31:28 <oerjan> of course it does. lisp isn't particularly pure.
07:31:58 <izabera> do you guys know this? https://github.com/esseks/monicelli
07:38:09 <hppavilion[1]> Did you know the German word Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz can't be translated into English!?
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07:40:19 <pikhq_> "Cattle marking and beef labelling supervision duties delegation law"
07:40:25 <pikhq_> Looks translatable to me.
07:40:35 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It's a joke about people who say certain words can't be translated
07:40:46 <hppavilion[1]> They certainly can, they just don't come cleanly in a word or two
07:41:05 <myname> it doesn't in german, too
07:41:14 <hppavilion[1]> But I doubt it takes more than a paragraph to translate a used word in any reasonable spoken language
07:41:15 <pikhq_> Eh, only real difference is English likes putting spaces in its compound noun phrases.
07:41:30 <myname> i like the jewish chuzpe more
07:41:36 <\oren\> "rind flesh ticketing over watching off gave over trackings sets"
07:41:39 <pikhq_> "Cattlemarkingbeeflabellingsupervisiondutiesdelegationlaw" is about what'd be like if we *didn't*.
07:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq_: That'd be amazing. I'm kind of tempted to learn German (I'm already set up to take the class in my next year of high school, so it's too late to still be tempted) and start incorrectly applying its grammar rules to english xD
07:43:24 <myname> it should be easier to parse german because of this stuff
07:43:51 <hppavilion[1]> ^ Google translate is surprisingly good with german
07:44:10 <\oren\> yesterday after I geeaten dinner i geate ice cream
07:44:26 <myname> well, there is GERMAN which isn't really funny
07:44:39 <pikhq_> That'd be "Old English grammar".
07:44:45 <\oren\> there's probably more to it than adding ge- to the start of past tense verbs
07:45:02 <pikhq_> Not surprisngly, Old English had, y'know, more of the classic Germanic syntax in it.
07:45:07 <hppavilion[1]> At some point in my life, there's going to be a hilarious joke told
07:45:20 <hppavilion[1]> And I won't be able to laugh because that article was anti-funny
07:45:24 <pikhq_> \oren\: I think you'd omit ge- there.
07:45:31 <myname> ah, geeaten is like gegessen?
07:46:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: "hello: not found
07:46:06 <pikhq_> "Eaten" and "ate" are already Germanic strong verb conjugations.
07:46:33 <myname> yeah, but gegessen vs essen is a thing
07:46:36 <hppavilion[1]> myname: You should use your german superpowers to make a non-non-funny german programming language
07:47:50 <pikhq_> myname: Sure, but not in that sentence. :)
07:49:10 <pikhq_> "Eaten" effectively has the "ge" prefix in it. In Middle English that become "y-", and it was mostly dropped.
07:49:19 <pikhq_> ... But "eaten" starts with that sound already.
07:50:15 <myname> it was a hard time for me figuring out "_a_ university"
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07:55:15 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> And I won't be able to laugh because that article was anti-funny <-- that'll be the wurst
07:55:49 <myname> i see what you did there
07:56:07 <oerjan> \oren\: the other thing is that you move the verbs to the end of the sentence hth
07:57:01 <oerjan> the verbs that get ge-ed, i mean.
07:57:51 <myname> yeah, finite verbs are at the second positiin, except for dependent clauses
07:58:48 <oerjan> oh right in dependent clauses they too go to the end.
08:00:09 <myname> "ich werde gefahren worden sein wollen"
08:01:32 <myname> i.e. there is some point in the future at which i wanted to be driven
08:02:23 <oerjan> oh right, and worden drops the ge- again
08:02:40 <oerjan> when the chain gets too long
08:03:03 <myname> there is no such thing as a chain too long :p
08:03:27 <myname> i love writing sentences spanning three or four lines
08:04:37 <oerjan> <myname> i see what you did there <-- you can blame david morgan-mar for that one.
08:05:20 <oerjan> he makes irregular webcomic! and some other comics
08:05:37 <shachaf> Everyone has heard of David Morgan-Mar.
08:05:52 <oerjan> some alone, some in collaboration, some crowd sourced
08:07:00 <myname> i wonder what happens if we feed fungot with some joke websites
08:07:00 <fungot> myname: there was an ad hoc way, will concentrate firstly on securing ambitious and credible. our europe, does in any case i invite the commission now highlights what it considers to be essential for the european union
08:07:01 <shachaf> he's practically a deity in here
08:07:03 <oerjan> iwc was the first webcomic i read. learned about it here.
08:07:06 <shachaf> but perhaps myname lacks piety
08:07:23 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
08:07:28 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
08:07:37 <oerjan> fungot: please demonstrate
08:07:37 <fungot> oerjan: no, of the house, so he wasn't joking i don't bolivia!
08:07:50 <oerjan> fungot: that's not a very good demonstration
08:07:50 <shachaf> oerjan: not even waving the swatter around?
08:07:50 <fungot> oerjan: our own webcomic! character would die a horrible, i hesitate to mention, but significantly in the past. as the people of nigeria!
08:08:07 <oerjan> shachaf: i missed your sentence, too much happening.
08:08:41 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: r13: command not found
08:08:46 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ brewna \ Ftrb \ SverSyl \ obvyl \ abeggv \ o_wbanf
08:08:50 <oerjan> myname: oh right, DMM also made esolangs back in the day. Chef, Ook! and Piet are among his.
08:09:05 <shachaf> myname: do you want to be added to olist?
08:09:13 <shachaf> oerjan: you can't stop logreading just because you're in the channel
08:09:14 <myname> oh, 2 out of 3 aren't that bad
08:09:25 <oerjan> shachaf: you get no swat since you reminded me of his esolangs hth
08:09:54 <myname> shachaf: i have a webcomic reader reminding me. also, i have a few 100 strips yet to read
08:11:06 <shachaf> oerjan: did you read the olist pdf thing yet
08:12:36 <shachaf> oh, is that meant to be a pun on "heart of darkness"?
08:12:48 <shachaf> if so i missed it until now
08:14:10 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: you can't stop logreading just because you're in the channel <-- i don't, but i don't necessarily read the moment it's spoken, especially when i'm already trying to respond to something else
08:15:41 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: did you read the olist pdf thing yet <-- it is safe in my backup that i still haven't copied back to my pc after the repairs hth
08:15:58 <shachaf> you can also just download it again presumably hth
08:16:16 <myname> what is that pdf about?
08:16:16 <oerjan> shachaf: i dunno, i never bothered registering at the site
08:16:44 <oerjan> myname: it's a comic book. shachaf made the bad decision to give it to me as a surprise gift.
08:17:08 <oerjan> this happened _just_ as my catching up with everything web was going downhill.
08:18:52 <oerjan> <shachaf> oh, is that meant to be a pun on "heart of darkness"? <-- oh it must be, given "The origin of PCs"
08:19:21 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, i didn't get that one until now either
08:19:36 <oerjan> oh that one i got before
08:19:36 <shachaf> is PCs pronounced with emphasis on the first syllable?
08:19:52 <oerjan> i think it rhymes perfectly with the pun
08:20:12 <shachaf> That's why I didn't get it.
08:20:59 <oerjan> oh wiktionary claims species could be pronounced either way
08:21:14 <oerjan> but the pun works regardless, i think
08:21:56 <b_jonas> what's this Heart of Darkness thing?
08:22:10 <oerjan> shachaf: oh hm, it was origin of PCs you bought btw afair
08:22:24 <shachaf> because of durkon's prophecy
08:22:36 <b_jonas> and what's Origin of the PCs a pun on?
08:22:46 <b_jonas> I'm not good with English puns and pop culture
08:23:11 <shachaf> the other one isn't available as pdf
08:23:15 <shachaf> b_jonas: On the Origin of Species
08:23:46 <b_jonas> ok, thanks, I could never have figured this one out
08:24:05 <oerjan> from the hints we've gotten about xykon and redcloak's past, i don't think i would _want_ to read start of darkness.
08:24:17 <oerjan> it's, like, pretty dark.
08:24:47 <oerjan> or maybe spoilers i've read somewhere
08:25:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh come on, it can't be much worse than the Kin-Slaying and the Oath of Feanor, can it?
08:25:02 <zzo38> Looking at FAQ for Pale Moon browser reveals some new settings that I believe are good idea, including "network.stricttransportsecurity.enabled" and "dom.disable_beforeunload", as well as features I have not thought of ("canvas.poisondata", which tampers with data read from canvas areas). Most of these features probably can be implemented in Firefox as well (possibly with userChrome.js), but may be more complicated to implement.
08:25:21 <oerjan> well, let's just say redcloak has very good reason to hate humans.
08:25:34 <oerjan> b_jonas: i didn't read that far in the silmarillion, either.
08:26:02 <zzo38> I do think that userChrome.js extension is one of the best Firefox extensions I am using; many things can be done with it, including stuff that it seems no other extension does
08:27:11 <b_jonas> Probably all the OOTS book titles have some sort of reference in it that I don't understand.
08:28:02 <shachaf> I'm just going to wait until there's a Complete Olist of the Stick book.
08:28:13 <shachaf> I don't like having lots of small books.
08:28:32 <b_jonas> they aren't really that small, at least some of them
08:28:42 <b_jonas> also, you may have to wait a decade then
08:29:30 <oerjan> <b_jonas> what's this Heart of Darkness thing? <-- a famous book by joseph conrad. i think that's also pretty dark hth
08:29:50 <b_jonas> do you not like dark books?
08:30:12 <shachaf> oerjan: is it true that "Ørjan" has emphasis on both the first and second syllable twh
08:32:45 <zzo38> I would think that HSTS setting could have three settings: "enabled", "allow user override", and "apply to location bar". The "apply to location bar" setting is only applicable if HSTS and relative location bar are both disabled, and if enabled means that HSTS is used to decide the protocol when the user has entered a domain name in the location bar without specifying which protocol to use.
08:33:30 <b_jonas> The good guys always lose.
08:34:42 <zzo38> b_jonas: The alternative: Everyone always lose.....
08:36:09 <zgrep> oerjan: Is it true that øerjan contains a null set?
08:36:41 <oerjan> shachaf: it has second pitch accent, which does make the second syllable feel stronger than if it had first pitch accent. at the same time, i find the main stress hard to ascertain.
08:38:35 <oerjan> hm after a little testing, i think it's on the first.
08:38:50 <oerjan> i cannot get it to scan in a verse with the second.
08:40:25 <b_jonas> Question. If you're writing a compiler that you bootstrap with another compiler, what are good words to mean (a) the already working compiler you bootstrap with, (b) this compiler you're bootstrapping, and (c) the output this compiler shall produce?
08:42:08 <oerjan> b_jonas: ghc seems to call the compilers stage 1 and stage 2
08:44:28 <zgrep> There should be more creative names than that. Such as "laces", "boot without laces", "boot". :P
08:44:38 <zgrep> (although those aren't that creative...)
08:45:02 <zgrep> Or did I read something wrong in that sentence...
08:45:12 <oerjan> huh italian wikipedia is spamming me with email notification despite never having contributed... oh hm
08:47:51 <oerjan> i suppose someone there was just overenthusiastic
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08:53:48 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, but I'd prefer relative ones
08:54:19 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, some wikipedias do that:
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08:55:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's a combinations of, (1) auto-creating an account if you just visit, (2) auto-greeter bots that greet even if you never edit, and (3) accounts created with email notification for edits to your user talk page enabled by default
08:55:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: one of those three is wrong, but I'm not sure which, there are some good arguments for each
08:56:23 <b_jonas> in combination, they results in emails in languages you don't understand from just clicking on a link
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08:56:37 <b_jonas> I've got a few such emails
08:56:49 <oerjan> well, accounts are global now, so (1) is correct i think
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08:57:17 <oerjan> well i'm automatically _logged in_ everywhere.
08:57:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: StackExchange has global account, but creates an account on each site only when you first request one
08:57:45 <b_jonas> after you create an account on a SE site, you can no longer back out without godly intervention, you get auto-logged in, but you have to allow creating the account in first place
08:57:57 <b_jonas> something like that could have worked for wikimedia projects global accoutns
08:58:26 <b_jonas> auto-getting greeting emails in languages you don't understand, even if you never edit, seems strange
08:58:37 <oerjan> anyway, i sort of like (1).
09:00:09 <oerjan> well i guess that's case closed, then. i _did_ visit it.wikipedia today to look up that "untranslatable word" from izabera's link (the last part of it means "trowel".)
09:00:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: sure, but you could say (2) makes sense because if a user is going to edit, then maybe it's better to greet a user with useful links about how to edit usefully _before_ he edits
09:00:41 <b_jonas> what? that was a German word. why it.wikipedia?
09:01:14 <oerjan> oh not a word discussed in channel.
09:01:33 <oerjan> one mentioned on that github page izabera linked.
09:01:48 <b_jonas> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/B_jonas shows I have accounts on way more (centrally authed) wikimedia projects than I've edited
09:02:23 <b_jonas> I've edited on 17 projects (if you count even single edits like creating a userpage),
09:02:57 <b_jonas> wasn't it Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz ?
09:05:06 <oerjan> no, it was supercazzola.
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09:05:44 <izabera> a supercazzola is just some random made up words that sound like plausible words, they're said quickly so the person you're talking to doesn't understand what you're talking about and whether you're making fun of them or not
09:06:06 <Taneb> That sounds like a useful concept
09:06:15 <izabera> it was made popular by an old italian movie
09:06:33 <oerjan> i first tried en.wiktionary, which was a little ambiguous (except telling that the normal spelling was cazzuola), so i went to it.wikipedia to check what it normally meant.
09:07:02 <oerjan> izabera: that would explain why i couldn't find any of the _other_ words on that github page :P
09:08:01 <izabera> they're taken from that movie
09:08:06 <oerjan> Taneb: a very cromulent concept indeed
09:09:14 <b_jonas> so it's like “kiszera méra bávatag”
09:09:31 <b_jonas> (invented by a Karinthy short story)
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09:45:51 <zzo38> Add into JavaScript some new features: arguments.generator, macro, WeakMap.prototype.watchGC (may be useful with FFI), etc
09:46:00 <zzo38> What is your opinion?
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12:03:49 <mroman> adult captchas: Select all images with balls.
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12:14:08 <b_jonas> oh look, the results of http://www.underhanded-c.org/ have been out for a while
12:14:32 <Taneb> There's no rule that Haskell's fromInteger has to be a ring homomorphism, is there?
12:18:17 <boily> Tanelle. I think there may usually be a convention for it to be true, but I don't think Haskell enforces that.
12:22:55 <shachaf> Taneb: Num instances aren't necessarily rings in the first place.
12:23:55 <boily> floats aren't rings?
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12:28:21 <Taneb> > (0/0) * 0 :: Float
12:28:35 <Taneb> @tell boily NaN * 0 == NaN
12:29:01 <shachaf> also addition isn't associative hth
12:29:27 <Taneb> @quickcheck \a b c -> (a + (b + c) :: Float) == ((a + b) + c)
12:29:30 <shachaf> > (0.1+0.2)+0.3 == 0.1+(0.2+0.3)
12:29:32 <myname> this isn't nornal, but in floats, it is
12:29:37 <Taneb> @check \a b c -> (a + (b + c) :: Float) == ((a + b) + c)
12:29:39 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 2 tests and 84 shrinks):
12:31:00 <shachaf> their assistance is usually required after dealing with floating-point arithmetic
12:32:29 <b_jonas> Taneb: no way. Floats aren't even a ring.
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15:34:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF-PDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46405&oldid=18186 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
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17:39:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Norfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46406&oldid=16175 * LegionMammal978 * (+39) /* External resources */
17:44:21 <\oren\> I'm doing lowercase fraktur, and uppercase blackboard bold
17:48:08 <izabera> http://spinroot.com/courses/summer/Papers/dijkstra_1975.pdf
17:48:25 <izabera> someone must go back in time and kill dijkstra
17:49:31 <Taneb> But then we might still be using goto
17:50:01 <\oren\> we're already still using... fuck stupid english tense system
17:50:10 <myname> "James explains why World War II series of Extra History won't use swastika of Nazi Germany."
17:50:10 <Taneb> Did someone go back and kill Dijkstra already
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17:58:57 <\oren\> how are they supposed to spot nazis if there's no swastikas labelling them?
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17:59:26 <Taneb> \oren\, maybe they'll use double zigzags
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18:05:49 <\oren\> it's stupid to fear the symbol of an ideology so much that you avoid using it even in teaching the history of that ideology
18:07:08 <\oren\> it's like if you had a history of islam without the shahada and the star and moon, or a history of communism without a hammer and sickle, or for that matter a documentary about christianity with no crosses...
18:10:06 <\oren\> seriously, what if you had Stalin in front of a flag with a yellow Ю on it. ridiculous
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18:14:27 <b_jonas> \oren\: but note that they might be trying to avoid legal trouble, for fear that some lawyers could turn the laws against them
18:15:09 <\oren\> oh, censorship laws...
18:15:29 <b_jonas> \oren\: you don't live in a country with laws against using hammer-sickle, red stars, arrow-crosses and swastikas in certain context, do you?
18:15:56 <b_jonas> I hear it's even worse in Germany.
18:16:03 <\oren\> no, canada has laws against hate speech, not against specific symbols associated with hate speech
18:17:58 <myname> i saw a youtube video saying english people have problems with the pf sound
18:18:18 <Taneb> There's a pf sound?
18:18:40 <myname> the german word for horse is pferd
18:18:52 <Taneb> myname, yeah, that seems a bit difficult
18:19:27 <\oren\> that sounds kind of like ts but with your lips
18:20:03 <myname> no, ts has a completely different positio of the tongue
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18:20:34 <myname> in fact, a pf does not need the tongue to move at all
18:23:28 <\oren\> well it's still a plosive frictive sequence in the same place of articulation isnt it
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18:52:12 <izabera> is there a way to get ''"" instead of ‘’“” in error messages without fucking up my locale completely?
18:53:04 <izabera> LC_CTYPE=C messes up readline so that must be utf8 :\
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18:59:03 <\oren\> uhh, does tr '‘’“”' \'\'\"\" work?
18:59:35 <\oren\> `` echo ‘’“” | tr '‘’“”' \'\'\"\"
19:00:30 <izabera> gnu tr doesn't convert multi-byte sequences
19:01:13 <\oren\> `` echo ‘’“” | sed 'y/‘’“”/'\'\'\"\"/
19:01:50 <\oren\> so guess pipe your stderr thru that?
19:04:56 <izabera> `` echo ‘’“” | tr ‘’“” abcd
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19:09:31 <zzo38> There seem to be too many programs that incorrectly output non-ASCII characters even when the user doesn't specify that it should
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19:57:46 <\oren\> in KSP, jet engines work underwater
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20:08:37 <shachaf> copumpkin: so twitter is the secret mechanism for contacting you
20:08:49 <\oren\> I have a jet-propelled submarine
20:08:54 <int-e> that doesn't sound very secret
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20:24:44 <b_jonas> \oren\: does it work underwater?
20:32:09 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: Casey & Andy (in the comic) built a wood-powered submarine
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20:34:27 <izabera> is there a way to tell cpp to keep escaped newlines in macros?
20:34:53 <b_jonas> izabera: I don't think so. that would screw up line numbers and not do anything else useful.
20:35:06 <b_jonas> the newlines (outside of string literals) don't really do anything for the syntax
20:35:08 <izabera> it would be useful to human readers...
20:35:38 <b_jonas> wood-powered submarine => http://www.galactanet.com/comic/view.php?strip=66
20:36:04 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, did it float?
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21:09:16 <zzo38> JavaScript has generator function and I made up the "monadic generators" with it too, do you like this? I made it as two monads
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21:24:49 <HackEgo> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
21:26:01 <int-e> zzo38 is an enigma wrapped in a series of reverse engineering challenges
21:29:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46407&oldid=46373 * Albedo * (+34) /* Beeswax */ beeswax examples added
21:29:48 <zzo38> I did write on the FAQ of AmigaMML about what I am not but that FAQ is now missing, I believe.
21:30:47 <zzo38> HackEgo is correct of course; but I am also not a doctor of mathematics and also am not a Japanese person, and so on. (However that FAQ also claims that I am not an enigma, contrary to you)
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22:45:26 <izabera> they would be easier to use if they supported some kind of fallthrough
22:45:44 <izabera> also they would be easier to use if they accepted a trailing ,
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22:52:05 <lambdabot> Taneb said 10h 23m 29s ago: NaN * 0 == NaN
22:52:24 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. tdh.
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22:58:00 <fizzie> Some kind of fallthrough like the "default:" association they have?
22:58:21 <fizzie> Oh, fallthrough. Never mind.
22:58:30 <fizzie> Well, that sounds somewhat unlikely to be useful.
22:58:48 <fizzie> (Misinterpreted that as some sort of a fallback, hence the default.)
23:00:36 <izabera> fizzie: _Generic(x, int8_t: int16_t: ... signed expr, uint8_t: uint16_t: ..... unsigned expr )
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23:14:11 * izabera macroes the shit out of this code
23:14:46 <fizzie> I think the can't-have-compatible-types-in-two-or-more-branches restriction makes them hard to use with stdint types, because you can't know what's compatible and what's not.
23:15:39 <izabera> i'm just playing with this but so far it seems to be working
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23:16:48 <izabera> is there a way to see the generated code after generics have been resolved?
23:17:37 * izabera disappointed that cpp doesn't do this
23:17:44 <fizzie> It's not a preprocessor construct.
23:17:52 <fizzie> The preprocessor doesn't know about types, anyway.
23:18:05 <izabera> that doesn't solve the problem <.<
23:18:08 <fizzie> I'm sure one of GCC's two hundred of so stages would be post-_Generic, but it might not be the sort of output you want.
23:18:17 <fizzie> (You can ask it to dump all.)
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23:21:21 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/hCLL like that
23:21:59 <fizzie> I don't know why it has the same thing in and out the block.
23:22:32 <fizzie> You can go a few steps further and then it's http://sprunge.us/QKRR
23:24:41 * izabera is a bit scared by char * * argv
23:24:55 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/PagY that's reasonable
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23:28:52 <izabera> meanwhile on stackoverflow this is a hot network question https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/68290/menstruating-on-wedding-day
23:30:16 <izabera> i don't know what's a mikvah and i'll sound racist but what fucked up religion is that
23:30:53 <Phantom_Hoover> "The groom is careful not to touch the bride when putting the ring on her finger."
23:31:26 <Phantom_Hoover> like i'm just imagining how you'd do that, with your fingers arched and just the tips in contact with the ringt
23:31:48 <fizzie> Maybe they've made a device to help with that.
23:32:25 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe it's like that scene in lotr where the ring falls on frodo's finger
23:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile "The Yichud-room has another person present; usually hiding there in advance so as to not make this obvious."
23:33:15 <Phantom_Hoover> don't mind me, i'm just a lamp, carry on with the consummation
23:34:19 <olsner> does it count as touching if you have gloves?
23:35:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean it's the calcified 2500 year old sanitary customs that are the source of the weirdness here
23:35:57 <Phantom_Hoover> two millennia of chanting about the dangers of the cooties will do that to you
23:36:37 <boily> circle circle dot dot you are now husband and wife.
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23:40:02 <Phantom_Hoover> "According to rabbinical law, a woman becomes a niddah when she is aware that blood has come from her womb,"
23:40:28 <olsner> there are perhaps other ways to become aware of that as well
23:41:08 <Phantom_Hoover> now we have fallen into the purview of your conundrums of philosophy
23:41:35 <olsner> hmm, yes, let's get out of there
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