00:02:56 <tswettsh> "Tanner Swett who is using the Internet connection of Spectrum Health"
00:03:33 <hppavilion[2]> tswettsh: So we should make a program that starts submitting public domain requests for all valid strings
00:06:14 <tswettsh> There's a sort of consensus that any string containing 140 or fewer characters is ineligible for copyright.
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00:17:26 <tswettsh> So, do you want to start by submitting all strings containing exactly 141 characters?
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00:18:30 <Riviera> i'll start with aaa....aaaab to have a headstart
00:21:12 <hppavilion[2]> tswettsh: Dammit. I wanted to copyright the null string.
00:21:27 <hppavilion[2]> "Everybody now must have text everywhere at all times"
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00:30:43 <\oren\> tomorrow jeb! bush will probably drop out
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01:20:13 <vanila> deos anyone remember the site of that guy that had loads of visual programming languages?
01:20:20 <vanila> i think he invented the thing brainfuck was based on too
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01:36:03 <MDude> http://esolangs.org/wiki/P%E2%80%B2%E2%80%B2
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01:49:51 <hppavilion[2]> I don't know why, it being good was just my first instinct
01:50:01 <hppavilion[2]> I mean, I suppose it reduces competition for *shiver* trump
01:52:25 <vanila> does anyone remembre it had a bunch of pictures of them on his site
01:52:40 <vanila> you could join code blocks together
01:53:05 <MDude> Upside for Jeb Bush as pesident: Potentially another sweet Green Day album
01:56:57 <vanila> http://esoteric.codes/post/137771088233/trumpscript-a-theme-language-done-right
02:04:50 <zzo38> The Xlib documentation includes: "Let's say a text editor is the owner of the selection XA_PRIMARY. The user is editing a C program and debugging the same C program in another window. The user would like to select a line in the source code and instruct the debugger to stop at that same line without having to type in the line number. [...] Which type the text editor would choose would depend on the target type of the selection request."
02:04:56 <zzo38> Does any program actually do this, though?
02:09:33 <MDude> What do you mean by visual programming language?
02:09:49 <MDude> If you can remember the name of any of them in particular, that'd probably help.
02:11:20 <MDude> Then name them here so we can use that in looking for/remembering.
02:11:36 <MDude> Unless you were talking to zzo38
02:14:02 <zzo38> You should name the visual programming languages anyways. I have read of some, such as LabVIEW, PureData, ToonTalk, Scratch, etc
02:14:27 <vanila> I can't remember the names
02:19:49 <MDude> Any other attributes of them that stand out?
02:20:00 <vanila> the guy had a webpage with them, they were his experiments
02:20:11 <vanila> its been around forever, really old site
02:20:26 <vanila> they had pictures of the guis he made for using them
02:20:50 <MDude> What else about the languages themselves stand out?
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02:28:23 <MDude> Well, I guess that's all vanilla had in terms of details.
02:28:47 <MDude> I would have liked to know if they were, say, grid based or freeform node connections or what.
02:29:11 <MDude> Buyt clearly I only need to know that it's old and a web site with pictures.
02:36:44 <madbr> technically some circuit simulators like HADES are visual programming languages
02:41:00 <madbr> (ie the ones that are digital and have components like static RAMs)
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03:06:41 <zzo38> madbr: I have used something like that once
03:07:06 <hppavilion[2]> izabera: To calculate, for example, 5*9, you would do mul(5, 9, X).
03:07:35 <hppavilion[2]> izabera: It's not a weird name, prolog is just weird because you don't have functions, you have predicates
03:08:19 <hppavilion[2]> izabera: You can't return anything but TRUE and FALSE from a predicate, so you have to make it set a variable to the value, basically, then you can use that variable elsewhere in other predicates
03:09:00 <hppavilion[2]> izabera: "assert" wasn't the best word to use there
03:10:50 <izabera> it's god because you can assign things to variables, gotcha
03:11:09 <hppavilion[2]> izabera: It's god because it's so cool the way it works
03:11:22 <hppavilion[2]> izabera: Look at factorial in https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Prolog/Math,_Functions_and_Equality
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03:24:27 <hppavilion[2]> Much harder- likely impossible- to efficiently implement, but really cool when you can
03:28:36 <izabera> if you have a language that has functions and recursion
03:28:55 <izabera> and you have a function that calls itself until it reaches X depth
03:29:28 <izabera> do you expect a good interpreter to run it in linear time, so that reaching 2X takes twice as long?
03:29:56 <izabera> suppose it's not possible to tail-optimize it
03:30:16 <madbr> yes unless X is very large or some other similar catch
03:30:47 <madbr> basically it eats up X of memory
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03:51:21 <madbr> nice... we're in a proxy war against russia in syria (bachar vs rebels), and also a proxy war against turkey (isis vs kurds), and also a proxy war against wahhabism (isis vs everybody else in the world)
03:52:21 <madbr> but also on the same side as russia (isis vs kurds, isis vs everybody else) and on the same side as turkey (bachar vs rebels, isis vs everybody else)
03:52:38 <madbr> US and europe and so forth
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03:55:49 <madbr> turkey is seriously at odds against russia
03:55:55 <madbr> and turkey is in NATO
03:59:43 <\oren\> luckily trudeau is pulling my country out of all that crap
04:00:57 <madbr> considering trudeau promised rainbows everywhere I guess that's a start ;)
04:01:28 <\oren\> yah. i think legal marijuana will be next
04:02:16 <MDude> Rainbows everywhere isn't too hard, you just need a lot of prisms.
04:02:26 <madbr> I guess we could say that syria is fucked and beyond what we can fix
04:02:47 <MDude> Well a lot of people elft it.
04:02:57 <MDude> I don't know what that means for the poelpe who stay there.
04:03:45 <madbr> considering all the people jumping in and bombing everybody else except ISIS to advance their retarded regional agenda (preventing kurdistand for turkey, military base on the mediterranean for russia)
04:07:04 <madbr> (+iran and arabia for their shiah vs sunni thing)
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04:28:58 <zzo38> To promise rainbows everywhere doesn't seem the good idea? Just let the rainbow to go by itself!
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04:50:43 <zzo38> Have you optimized software by duplicating characters in the font?
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05:13:56 <\oren\> https://imgur.com/hYownkH
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05:25:22 <\oren\> I added those lights to my lander to make it easier to tell how far from the ground I am
05:36:04 <Elronnd> `rainwords r a i n b o w s e v e r y w h e r e
05:36:12 <Elronnd> `` rainwords r a i n b o w s e v e r y w h e r e
05:36:37 <izabera> i'm starting to believe that HackEgo has some timezone issue
05:37:16 <izabera> or that it's checking if someone on irc wrote a command with a cron job that runs once per minute
05:38:02 <Elronnd> `` echo r a i n b o w s e v e r y w h e r e | rainwords
05:38:03 <HackEgo> r a i n b o w s e v e r y w h e r e
06:08:05 <zzo38> Firefox is good, but you need at least fifty customizations.........
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06:11:02 <zzo38> Chrome also has various problems
06:12:32 <zzo38> I believe most of the customizations I made in Firefox are not even possible in Chrome at all
06:12:59 <Elronnd> there is a certain degree of customization that Chrom{ium,e} does not allow yes
06:13:18 <Elronnd> the web developer extension, for example, is not allowed to have its own toolbar in chrome
06:14:25 <zzo38> In Firefox I removed ALL of the toolbar and tab bar icons, and changed the location bar to treat entered text as relative URLs, and to always display percent-encodings instead of the Unicode characters
06:15:12 <zzo38> As well as hacked the binary file to disable HSTS permanently, and I also hacked one of the SQL schemas used in Firefox, and more
06:16:05 <zzo38> HSTS is a really terrible idea.
06:17:12 <zzo38> I would also wish more options for customizing HPKP support, such as to disable automatic reporting and disable "no user recourse"
06:17:55 <Elronnd> You *can* hack the source of chrome, just saying
06:18:35 <zzo38> Yes, although you have to recompile it then
06:19:01 <zzo38> I have made a lot of customizations to Firefox without recompiling.
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06:27:44 <zzo38> I would think the "UNIX programmers only" web browser program should be invented which has no icons, use relative location bar, mainly keyboard command, Athena scrollbars, no HSTS, it does only the thing the user specifies rather than the other thing, you can use any program as a proxy rather than only a server, and settings can be custom by condition (e.g. if the URL matches this regular expression then change that option to 2 instead of 3), etc
06:28:48 <pikhq> zzo38 has a philosophical objection to it for reasons I don't quite understand.
06:29:31 <zzo38> HSTS is everything against good computer design
06:30:00 <prooftechnique> Also, I feel like you can do a lot of what you're proposing with most terminal browsers
06:34:24 <zzo38> Also you should be allowed to configure a non-tunneling HTTPS proxy, and actually to configure the settings (based on conditions such as protocol and other stuff, like the other settings) in order to make it tunneling or non-tunneling. (For direct or tunneling HTTPS, HPKP would be implemented but differently from the other browsers; for non-tunneling HTTPS, no HPKP is implemented, although if the proxy protocol is HTTPS then it can be implemented
06:39:18 <zzo38> UNIX is not designed to stop you to do a stupid thing, because then you can't make good things either.
06:39:56 <zzo38> UNIX is design to allow many different program with different thing to do joining together by pipes.
06:40:25 <zzo38> UNIX is design to execute the commands the user has specified/configured/programmed, rather than to make up their own stupid autocorrect and so on
06:40:35 <zzo38> This is a good computer design. See?
06:41:29 <zzo38> Now do you understand it please?
06:42:32 <prooftechnique> Right, but not everyone can use a computer that way. Good defaults are good for the majority of users, and advanced users can disable things like thawt.
06:43:34 <madbr> pipes don't work with GUI
06:45:02 <madbr> I'm not convinced that all in all win32's weak shell is a totally bad thing, since it forces people to make GUI apps
06:45:11 <zzo38> That is why, to mainly make command-line program instead. You can add a man page if you need help
06:45:49 <zzo38> Forcing to make GUI apps is a bad idea you should use command-line program and make every program a filter as much as possible. It is how I have designed software such as DVIPBM and AmigaMML and so on
06:46:05 <prooftechnique> I don't see how the UNIX philosophy conflists with HSTS, though. People *should* be using HTTPS
06:47:22 <zzo38> It should be up to the user to program if they want HTTPS as well as all of the other configuration relating to such thing
06:49:47 <madbr> zzo38 : obviously you're not a user-facing-app developer :D
06:50:46 <zzo38> Someone who does not know how to operate a computer, should either to learn or to don't use computer at all.
06:51:07 <madbr> also, 99% of the time I don't want to deal with command line
06:51:42 <zzo38> The problem is that too many program are GUI and cannot work by command line, too.
06:51:43 <madbr> I'm fine with command line for batch scripts and quick utility dev tools and the like
06:52:09 <madbr> zzo38 : a lot of those programs make no sense for command line
06:52:44 <zzo38> Yes, of course there are exceptions you are right, but also in many cases it does make sense and yet it doesn't
06:53:11 <madbr> command line stuff is never as snappy
06:53:16 <zzo38> It does make sense to have GUI and so on for some program
06:54:00 <madbr> UTAU for instance is a voice synthesis program (kind of a vocaloid clone) and it calls external programs for stretching each note and for crossfading the stretched notes together
06:54:40 <madbr> result: the resampler can be replaced and people have made incrementally better ones over the years, and some resamplers work better for some voices etc
06:55:29 <zzo38> Now I have Linux, and I do by command line most thing, such as to do printing, typesetting, music, C programming, JavaScript (with Node.js), calculation, and various others too.
06:55:53 <zzo38> (Also email; I use Heirloom Mailx as my preferred email client)
06:56:09 <zzo38> (And I use vim for text editor)
06:56:58 <madbr> downside of UTAU is that real time voice synthesis is literally impossible
06:57:24 <madbr> you have to launch a bake and you see it operating in a command window every time which is clunky as hell
06:57:42 <madbr> the whole system holds together with duct tape
06:57:51 <zzo38> madbr: Well, that is why, you have many different program are available; you can see what program you like, and can possibly make modified version if is open source programming.
06:57:57 <madbr> also you have to set your computer in japanese or else it doesn't work
06:58:28 <madbr> zzo38 : that only work for amateur programs that you're really invested in
06:58:43 <zzo38> I implemented Athena scrollbar in Firefox but it doesn't work very well there are some problems with it (especially outside of the main document window); do you know what is wrong with it please and how to fix it?
07:00:13 <madbr> I'm fine with firefox's scrollbar as it is (I think it's the native win32 widget but tbh you never know and it's often faked - see java or QT for examples of this)
07:00:48 <zzo38> I prefer the Athena widgets
07:01:19 <zzo38> Alternatively if no program is good for you, make up a new one. That is reason why I wrote many of the programs that I did write, such as AmigaMML and DVIPBM.
07:01:59 <madbr> I am fine with commercial software
07:02:14 <zzo38> That's OK; you can use it then.
07:03:14 <zzo38> I however, find it often isn't very good and prefer the Free software, although sometimes no such software exists whether proprietary or free or whatever, therefore should be written.
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07:04:14 <zzo38> I also implemented a program called "playmod" out of libmodplug; read music file from stdin, render audio to stdout, use another program to put the sound on the speaker or to save to a file or convert to another file format. It is now what I use for music playing.
07:04:58 <zzo38> Even with "amigamml | playmod" you can make a MML file and can play it back without ever storing the MOD/XM file on your computer anywhere except in the RAM.
07:06:03 <zzo38> (For to play back Vorbis file, I can use SoX, which I also have)
07:07:47 <madbr> I use audacity instead of SoX
07:07:54 <madbr> It's open source even!
07:08:30 <madbr> (ok and a lot of soundforge at work which we get a dev licence of)
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07:10:36 <zzo38> Yes I know it is open source even.
07:11:21 <zzo38> Since there is many different kind of software, it mean you can choose to use different software than the one I do. If the file format specification is open, then even someone else can make the other implementation to be compatible with it too.
07:14:55 <madbr> ok, well, audacity isn't a command line program and couldn't be one
07:15:44 <zzo38> That is fine; other programs exist so that is OK
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07:17:57 <zzo38> For audio play/record/effects I can use SoX; for instrument sound synthesis I can use the program that I wrote by myself called XISYNTH; take the program to implement that instrument sound on stdin and make either raw audio or .XI on stdout; it can then be used with any program that can accept .XI instruments (it is meant for use with AmigaMML, but can also be used with OpenMPT and so on too)
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07:21:38 <zzo38> In here is night time but that is OK anyways
07:21:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: those things you describe about a browser sound nice, although of course I'd use very different settings, but the problem is that maintaining a browser is really difficult, because they keep changing, adding features that websites then start using very soon
07:22:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't use SoX, but I also don't work much with sound. I use ffmpeg as a command-line program set for working with images and videos a lot, and it's a bit hard to learn and finnicky and can't do everything, but it's very powerful.
07:22:47 <b_jonas> I think ffmpeg would also work well for handling audio.
07:22:59 <b_jonas> It can certainly put audio to pipes or files and play from one.
07:23:23 <b_jonas> I'm using it that way for video: start ffmpeg/ffprobe subprocesses for encoding or decoding or playing videos or images.
07:24:01 <b_jonas> It also helps that when I reported bugs, the devs quickly fixed some of them. That makes me much more confident in using software.
07:24:08 <zzo38> That is fine if you would use different settings, that is the point to have that many settings
07:24:45 <zzo38> I don't record or play video on my computer
07:25:50 <b_jonas> In particular, there was a bug where ffmpeg stopped after writing 2G (or maybe 4G) bytes of raw image data to a pipe. That was evil because I thought the bug was in my program of course.
07:26:06 <b_jonas> Eventually I figured out what was happening, and it was easy enough to reproduce in a standalone case, so I reported it,
07:26:34 <b_jonas> and they quickly fixed it, and now I'm reading more than 4G raw image data from ffmpeg in my programs.
07:26:52 <b_jonas> (Some integer variable was declared to have the wrong type or something.)
07:26:53 <ais523> b_jonas: sox is basically the ffmpeg of audio
07:26:54 <ais523> I've used it for very simple things (mostly just converting between formats)
07:27:22 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but ffmpeg also does audio, and converts between formats, and things like that
07:27:50 <ais523> I typically set ffmpeg to copy rather than re-encode audio
07:27:54 <ais523> so that it doesn't lose fidelity
07:30:47 <madbr> yeah sox is mostly used to batch convert audio formats
07:31:03 <madbr> and other similar batch audio operations
07:31:18 <madbr> which is the one place where being command line is good
07:31:55 <zzo38> Yes sox is good for that, although I also use it to play back audio
07:37:57 <zzo38> If you know any Famicom programming then can you answer this question please? Can you please tell me why this program doesn't work http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Famicom_Z-machine and also how to run this program on Linux?
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07:41:08 <ais523> ugh, someone's created a category without discussion
07:41:11 <ais523> and it's not a very interesting one either
07:41:44 <ais523> zzo38: the program is too long for me to be able to debug it just by looking at it
07:42:12 <ais523> also I've never seen mapper 380 before
07:42:24 <zzo38> That is because I invented that mapper
07:42:51 <zzo38> http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Mapper_I
07:43:31 <ais523> zzo38: running a program using a mapper that hasn't been used elsewhere is very difficult
07:43:45 <ais523> also cartridge manufacturers probably won't have the mapper available
07:44:28 <zzo38> I have implemented that mapper on Nintendulator (I needed to edit the header file to work with C, since it was designed for C++), although that software isn't a Linux software
07:44:56 <zzo38> (And even on Nintendulator, the debugging function some thing are incomplete such as source level debugging and so on)
07:45:48 <madbr> why didn't you just make your mapper source code c++
07:45:49 <zzo38> You could put the ICs on the cartridge by yourself if you want to make up the cartridge; I included the instructions for doing so. It is design with discrete logic, although it might be possible with CPLD too
07:46:37 <zzo38> madbr: Well, adding a #ifndef section with a few typedefs was all that was necessary to make it work with C
07:47:03 <madbr> that's more than renaming the source file to .cpp
07:49:43 <zzo38> I think just renaming the file won't work, due to such things as name mangling and some other differences in C++ such as how (void*) types is working, and so on. The other mappers even used a extern "C" section so that it is compatible with a C code! The header file used no C++ specific stuff other than doing bare struct/union names without typedef, so it is easy to fix it for C just by adding those typedef.
07:50:03 <zzo38> Also I don't know C++ programming very good anyways
07:50:48 <zzo38> ais523: Do you understand the instructions I wrote for the mapper?
07:50:58 <zzo38> Yes I know C programming very good
07:51:02 <ais523> zzo38: I haven't looked in detail
07:51:12 <zzo38> C++ programming I know a few things about it but not very good
07:51:20 <ais523> mostly because I think it's more interesting to write programs with existing mappers, preferably the least powerful ones available
07:51:27 <ais523> so far I've been focusing on mappre 0
07:51:47 <zzo38> ais523: In general that is true yes I agree, but sometimes that won't do
07:53:17 <zzo38> For my game "Attribute Zone" is using Color Dreams mapper (except for lockout defeat which isn't used); it is also a discrete mapper.
07:54:36 <madbr> c++ to me, 90% of time, is just making classes (structs with functions in them), and using std::vector and std::string
07:55:18 <zzo38> (This is mapper 11. The reason I used it rather than GNROM is due to the order of bits of bank switching register, which is more suitable for the Attribute Zone program in particular)
07:55:19 <madbr> it has all sorts of other stuff but that other stuff doesn't make as much difference in the kind of applications I do
07:57:28 <zzo38> I do many programming languages (including 6502 assembly language) but not C++. I can program JavaScript too (with Node.js so that standalone program can be done), and made up a Z-machine implementation with JavaScript, and also one with C, and the link posted above is the partially implement Z-machine in a 6502 code.
07:57:51 <zzo38> (Note: It is a 6502 code including unofficial opcodes.)
07:58:15 <zzo38> (Therefore, it is only for NMOS 6502, although Famicom VM is now defined as using the NMOS instruction set, so it is OK.)
08:02:37 <zzo38> Actually, the PRINTC implementation now looks certainly wrong to me; I don't know why I wrote that
08:08:11 <zzo38> (I think zprntc1 and zprntc2 are reversed from what it should be)
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12:06:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TeaScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46414&oldid=46053 * 94.100.212.225 * (-5) fixed link
12:09:33 <Vorpal> <madbr> c++ to me, 90% of time, is just making classes (structs with functions in them), and using std::vector and std::string <-- really?
12:10:00 <Vorpal> I guess I mostly (only) use C++ for my day job, and there it really isn't about that
12:10:20 <ais523> c++ is like ten languages stapled together at this point
12:10:29 <ais523> different companies use entirely different subsets
12:10:48 <ais523> (incidentally, a similar phenomenon happens with Windows development; Raymond Chen rolls dice to see which sorts of pointer to use for each new example program he writes, mostly as a joke)
12:11:45 <Vorpal> ais523: yes, for me it is STL and some parts of boost. Plus our own common libraries that are developed internally. We have our own thread libraries (yes, plural, that is the bane of a long living code base) for example.
12:12:09 <Vorpal> ais523: is there more than one pointer type?
12:12:11 <ais523> do they at least play well with each other?
12:12:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TeaScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46415&oldid=46414 * 94.100.212.225 * (-10)
12:12:23 <ais523> Vorpal: there's a ton of pointer-wrapper classes and libraries
12:12:36 <ais523> you can ofc use raw pointers, that's one of Chen's options
12:13:07 <Vorpal> ais523: yes, the modern one actually uses the other one internally, but extends it with event handling, better message passing, timer scheduler and so on.
12:14:14 <Vorpal> ais523: well I mostly deal with raw pointers and boost shared/scoped ptr. Since I can't use C++11 std::shared_ptr for most code due to it still having to compile for Windows CE 5 for some legacy targets.
12:14:53 <Vorpal> ais523: but true, I guess if you include all of the so called smart pointers, there are a lot
12:15:12 <ais523> what is your day job, anyway?
12:15:56 <ais523> also the annoying thing about Windows is that each library invents its own interoperability thing with specific other libraries rather than being a general one
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12:16:13 <ais523> there's no single equivalent of select() in Windows, there's a bunch of different ones that each can wait for certain subsets of events
12:16:40 <Vorpal> ais523: developing real time control software for heavy open pit mining equipment.
12:16:42 <ais523> I suspect this is why threads are so popular in Windows, because you simply can't put everything into a single event loop
12:16:58 <ais523> Vorpal: hmm, I wouldn't have guessed that, but it seems interesting
12:17:15 <Vorpal> ais523: they support some autonomous operation as well as remote control from a control room
12:17:47 <ais523> just as long as it doesn't go crazy and start to wipe out humanity ;-)
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12:18:07 <Vorpal> ais523: The heaviest model is 22 meters long, has a ~30m tower, weighs ~200 metric tons and has a max speed of 5 km/h
12:18:22 <ais523> hmm, that's approximately walking speed
12:18:25 <ais523> so I guess we could just outwalk it
12:18:39 <Vorpal> ais523: Oh and iirc each link on the tracks weighs slightly less than a ton each
12:19:34 <Vorpal> The electric engine version has a cable with 3-phase 1000 V (and I forgot how many A) trailing behind the machine. The cable is massive anyway. There are diesel variants topo
12:19:37 <ais523> meanwhile I'm writing software that programs microchips
12:19:46 <ais523> kind-of the opposite end of the scale scale
12:20:35 <Vorpal> ais523: yes, "embedded" programming for me, which it kind of is, still mostly deals with high end industrial rugged PCs running x86 mostly. Dual core 1 GHz, 1 GB RAM. That sort of range.
12:20:55 <ais523> I've programmed really low-end chips before now
12:21:21 <ais523> however we aren't aiming at any specific size of FPGA, our program would work with quite high-end ones
12:21:27 <ais523> also with ASICs in theory but we haven't tested that yet for obvious reasons
12:21:30 <Vorpal> Oh yes, I coded for both PIC (model 12something) and AVR (ATMega32 something?), but not for work
12:21:43 <ais523> PIC12 is very low-end :-)
12:21:50 <Vorpal> ais523: I know, it was painful.
12:22:07 <ais523> how many pins did it have?
12:22:14 <Vorpal> 8, including power and gnd
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12:22:22 <Vorpal> this was many years ago
12:22:24 <ais523> OK, so one of the smallest pic12 models
12:22:38 <ais523> (was looking for a way to distinguish between them that you'd probably be able to remember)
12:22:47 <ais523> it's not like I have the pic model numbers memorized anyway
12:22:50 <Vorpal> 1024 kwords program memory iirc
12:22:53 <ais523> although I mostly used the pic16 series
12:22:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Carriage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46416&oldid=39134 * LegionMammal978 * (+275) /* Function Slicing */ new section
12:23:05 <Vorpal> and 128 bytes or 256 bytes or something like that data memory
12:23:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Carriage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46417&oldid=46416 * LegionMammal978 * (+109) /* Function Slicing */
12:23:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Carriage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46418&oldid=46417 * LegionMammal978 * (-1) /* Function Slicing */
12:23:55 <ais523> if it's a PIC it probably isn't a round number
12:23:59 <ais523> it'd be 144 or something like that
12:24:13 <ais523> basically because Microchip have a habit of exposing every part of the chip that could possibly be used as RAM, as RAM
12:24:35 <ais523> this makes "system calls" easy to write as they're basically just memory-mapped registers
12:24:44 <Vorpal> ais523: this was probably 12 years go by now or so though
12:27:35 <Vorpal> ais523: http://mb.cision.com/Public/90/9248495/98354890d0b013b2_800x800ar.jpg
12:27:39 <Vorpal> the machine I code for
12:28:30 <Vorpal> Look at the height of the railing for scale, the cockpit is rather large
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12:31:45 <Taneb> I think my uni at least claims to do a lot of real time systems research
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12:37:38 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> ais523: http://mb.cision.com/Public/90/9248495/98354890d0b013b2_800x800ar.jpg
12:37:44 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> the machine I code for
12:37:46 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> Look at the height of the railing for scale, the cockpit is rather large
12:38:23 <ais523> that's smaller than I was expecting, actually, not in terms of dimensions but in terms of volume
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13:21:40 <lambdabot> CYUL 201300Z 16014KT 10SM -RASN OVC021 01/M00 A2957 RMK NS8 SLP016
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13:36:25 <lambdabot> EGLL 201320Z AUTO 24014KT 4100 -RA BKN009 10/09 Q1009
13:36:30 <lambdabot> EFHK 201320Z 15015KT 2000 -SN BKN004 00/00 Q1009 NOSIG
13:36:40 <fizzie> There's no temperature there at all.
13:44:26 <boily> broken weather. you'll have to send a strongly worded letter to your local government for them to start it again.
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14:32:32 <oerjan> ais523: when people say "hola" is a good time to use `bienvenido instead of `welcome hth
14:35:16 <oerjan> <ais523> how do I output a bignum in hexadecimal using a bot in the channel? I assume there's some Haskell standard library function for it but I don't know what it is <-- it's showHex but you have to remember it takes a final string suffix
14:35:29 <oerjan> > showHex 99 " bottles of beer on the wall"
14:37:25 <oerjan> it's quite logical, actually. it is more efficient in haskell to chain string prepending than to concatenate nested strings, so the Show API is based on this
14:38:36 <oerjan> and so the primitive formatting functions often give Shows instead of String
14:39:36 <oerjan> mind you, these days people thing String itself is too slow for many things
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14:48:53 <FireFly> [ hfd 999999999999999999x NB. does this handle bigints?
14:48:54 <j-bot> FireFly: de0b6b3a763ffff
14:49:22 <FireFly> Of course, remembering showHex is probably easier
14:50:12 <myname> i ever wondered: what does NB stand for?
14:50:15 <oerjan> <ais523> distro upgrade breakage is often bizarre <-- they updated fedora the other day and now alpine does not work properly inside tmux
14:50:30 <FireFly> myname: nota bene, latin for "mark well" IIRC
14:50:32 <ais523> oerjan: presumably that's a result of a change to alpine or tmux?
14:50:54 <FireFly> er that should probably be "note well"
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14:51:29 <myname> ah, english. that language with these latin abbreviations
14:51:33 <oerjan> ais523: i suggested it was https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1245426
14:51:38 <myname> because, why should they be english
14:52:44 <oerjan> ais523: afaiu it's a backwards incompatible correction to terminfo, which tmux was not immediately updated to support
14:53:15 <ais523> it causes more problems than it solves
14:53:33 <APic> Like the Autotools ;)
14:58:07 <fizzie> `` echo 999999999999999999 16o n | dc
14:58:17 <fizzie> That's also always an option.
15:01:18 <FireFly> honestly I think I prefer J then
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15:16:13 <oerjan> <ais523> … now I'm trying to figure out if BF is Turing-complete if the tape pointer is zeroed at the start of every loop <-- with unbounded cells, yes, otherwise no.
15:16:38 <oerjan> because with unbounded cells you can manage with balanced loops
15:16:52 <ais523> oerjan: I'm not convinced of the no with bounded cells
15:17:24 <oerjan> with bounded cells, a program can only reach a finite number of cells, no?
15:17:34 <ais523> [>+] reaches infinitely many cells
15:17:38 <ais523> I'm not assuming the reset happens inside the loop
15:17:56 <ais523> I'm just not sure if that /usefully/ reaches infinitely many cells
15:18:15 <oerjan> hm i think it works then.
15:18:39 <oerjan> implement 3 unbounded cells as a unary strip of flags each
15:19:21 <oerjan> can you do increment, decrement, and test of those? then you can emulate a 3-cell bf
15:19:41 <oerjan> * 3-cell bf with balanced loops
15:21:15 <oerjan> can you actually scan until the end..
15:25:54 <fizzie> What a scam -- urn.fi is only reachable over plain HTTP, not HTTPS.
15:31:53 <fizzie> I would think you could do increment, decrement and zero-test of K unbounded counters by having interleaved unary strips of flags.
15:38:12 <oerjan> @ask vanila <vanila> deos anyone remember the site of that guy that had loads of visual programming languages? <-- is it http://strlen.com/ ?
15:39:25 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm no longer sure. it seems hard to handle a strip that does not contain the tape left end cell
15:40:18 <oerjan> (note that this is not in ordinary BF)
15:40:57 <fizzie> Well. I'm not sure whether the [] reset happens before or after testing if the current cell is zero or not.
15:41:32 <oerjan> well obviously it's trivial if it's before, so i assumed after.
15:42:14 <fizzie> As in, >+[...] would run ...?
15:42:42 <oerjan> otherwise you could do no testing on other cells at _all_
15:42:53 <fizzie> In that case, I think you could just have an offset of +1 in all the counters, and interleave them so that they all share the leftmost tape cell, and use skips of 2, 3, 5, ... for the counters.
15:43:07 <fizzie> And go to cells 2, 3, 5 etc. for the "zero"-testing.
15:43:34 <oerjan> the problem is that they must not share any _other_ cells.
15:43:51 <fizzie> Yes, well, they won't if the spacing is prime, right?
15:44:12 <fizzie> As in, [>>], [>>>] and [>>>>>] scan three entirely distinct strips.
15:46:52 <fizzie> Let's just say it's an unbounded tape to both directions and you reset to the "middle", then you've got two counters. :p
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15:49:29 <oerjan> ok, testing is easy. it's increment and decrement that need you to actually find the other end.
16:00:07 <fizzie> I tried to get somewhere with a tape like sABCsABCsABC... where, to increment B, you first increment s until it's equal to be (since you can scan [>>>>] to get to the end of s, and then test a cell offset from its end) and then use that to find the cell to increment.
16:00:18 <fizzie> Couldn't quite write it out, but I still think that might lead somewhere.
16:10:26 <oerjan> >+[>[>>>>]+>]>>>>+ to increment A, say?
16:12:09 <oerjan> +[[>>>>]+>]>>>>+[->>>>]
16:13:50 <oerjan> fizzie: i think that works in essence
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16:22:10 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Oh, that's simpler than what I had -- didn't even think of testing A with the ]. But yes, something like that.
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18:05:14 <b_jonas> fungot, do you handle XML DOMs?
18:05:14 <fungot> b_jonas: but i'll pass it to map or so.
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18:16:40 <\oren\> here comes the nevada dem cucus and south carilina gop primary!
18:20:45 -!- dreadtek has joined.
18:21:15 <dreadtek> greetings, any1 have a way to interpret TapeBagel code?
18:29:13 <\oren\> no, but that doesn't look too hard to make... it's a FSA isn't it
18:34:37 <b_jonas> fungot, do you have a way to interpret TapeBagel code?
18:34:37 <fungot> b_jonas: but most lang the types of books than those two chatters. i don't recall any foreign languages in there.
18:36:54 <\oren\> fungot: is that a no or a yes?
18:36:54 <fungot> \oren\: is that ' after two' meaning three. anyway. i don't care
18:37:24 <\oren\> bloody inscrutable AI's.
18:37:54 <fizzie> fungot: Inscrutable is fine, but try not to be impolite as well.
18:37:55 <fungot> fizzie: are yout aling about the mit licence... or there is scheme :)
18:41:42 <\oren\> anyway, https://esolangs.org/wiki/TapeBagel tis would seem to have no control flow, and therefore it won't require much to make an interpreter
18:43:02 -!- MoALTz has joined.
18:53:33 <\oren\> I'm working on an implementation
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19:36:12 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/tapebagel.htm
19:36:53 <\oren\> a hastily written perl implementation of tapebagel. the hello world program works with it
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19:41:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TapeBagel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46419&oldid=11836 * Orenwatson * (+131) added link to my impl
19:43:57 <\oren\> like for example, if * is integer zero, ** is 1, and *** is 2, then I made **** do integer 3 and so on.
19:45:41 <MDude> Not sure if I should actually include languages where the semantics don't reflect the actual text's meaning as Pseudonatural or change the definition to explude them.
19:46:14 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
19:46:23 <prooftechnique> It looks really similar to one I used to use, but I can't remember what it was. It's very neat
19:46:32 <MDude> Since iI'm nto sure if it makes sense to include Shakespeare and Lingua Abstracta or put them in their own categorey.
19:47:50 <\oren\> monofur bold was what I used before I made my own
19:50:41 <prooftechnique> Which is exactly what I was trying to find earlier today, but all the pcfs I could find were broken and I didn't want to fix them :v
19:54:08 <b_jonas> \oren\: as for your font, I'd like to ask you again to try to revise the cyrillic uppercase letters a bit, because some of them look deceptively similar to uppercase latin letters: ІЈ especially
19:54:53 <b_jonas> I know they aren't exactly the same, but they look too similar
19:55:28 <b_jonas> But maybe that's just for my tastes. I am more willing to uglify the look of non-whitespace characters to make them look different from ascii.
19:57:45 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: Rebooting).
19:58:20 <b_jonas> \oren\: the cyrillic letter Ӏ (which appears in some rarer languages only) is also a bit confusing, for it looks like the ascii vertical bar |
19:58:42 <\oren\> oh. that's a problem, I'll take a look
19:59:29 <prooftechnique> Let me know when you update :) I'm already loving using it. :D
19:59:36 <HackEgo> [U+04C0 CYRILLIC LETTER PALOCHKA] [U+0406 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER BYELORUSSIAN-UKRAINIAN I] [U+0408 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER JE]
19:59:56 <\oren\> the next update will have fraktur lowercase, and blackboard bold
20:01:05 <b_jonas> \oren\: blackboard bold what? all uppercase ascii letters and lowercase k? more? less?
20:01:09 <izabera> what's a unicode character that needs U+XXXXXXXX ?
20:01:15 <b_jonas> will it have the blackboard bold digit 1 ?
20:01:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taxi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46420&oldid=44008 * MDude * (+27)
20:01:48 <\oren\> uh, all the blackboard bold
20:01:52 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:02:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shakespeare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46421&oldid=12076 * MDude * (+27)
20:02:35 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh, and I noticed this only now, but could you add the double vertical bar ‖ which is commonly used in maths formulas?
20:02:37 <\oren\> izabera: the blackboard bold would need that
20:02:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lingua abstrusa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46422&oldid=25065 * MDude * (+28)
20:04:14 <\oren\> b_jonas: it's in the general punctuation block
20:05:47 <b_jonas> there it is on the sample page
20:05:56 <b_jonas> I don't know what I typoed for not finding it before
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20:43:28 <zzo38> Someone told me on the telephone that my computer was not working, but if I shut it down for one hour tomorrow, it would be fixed by the time it is switched on again. What are they trying to do exactly?
20:43:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:43:54 <\oren\> they're trying to et your money
20:44:39 <zzo38> Well, yes, but how would that work?
20:45:55 <zzo38> (I told them that there was nothing wrong with my computer and that it was working perfectly, which they seemed to refuse to accept)
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20:47:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: is it true that yoru computer is working perfectly?
20:47:51 <zzo38> Yes it is working OK
20:48:16 <HackEgo> catamorphism/A catamorphism is when you recurse too greedily and too deep.
20:48:16 <HackEgo> /cat: : No such file or directory
20:48:17 <HackEgo> /cat: : No such file or directory
20:48:25 <zzo38> (Perhaps it is not perfect, although it is working OK.)
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20:53:47 <zzo38> But before I told them I had Linux, they kept misquoting stuff from the TeamViewer website for some reason, and were trying to get me to install it, which of course I refused, but since they were misquoting it, I could correctly tell them that their instructions are impossible to follow anyways.
20:54:28 <zzo38> I hope I have wasted a sufficient amount of their time.
20:55:56 <b_jonas> `slashlearn USB3/USB3 hosts are packaged with a full independent implementation of the older USB/USB2, going through separate pins in the same socket. It is similar to the DVI sockets in this respect, which have analog video pins in them, except you need a separate passive converter stub to plug VGA cable to DVI socket, but you don't need one to plug a USB client to an USB3 host.
20:56:03 <HackEgo> USB3 hosts are packaged with a full independent implementation of the older USB/USB2, going through separate pins in the same socket. It is similar to the DVI sockets in this respect, which have analog video pins in them, except you need a separate passive converter stub to plug VGA cable to DVI socket, but you don't need one to plug a USB client t
20:57:00 <b_jonas> `slashlearn USB3/USB3 hosts are packaged with a full independent implementation of the older USB/USB2, going through separate pins in the same socket. It is similar to DVI, except you need a separate passive converter stub to plug VGA monitor to DVI socket, but you don't need one to plug a USB client to an USB3 host.
20:57:06 <HackEgo> USB3 hosts are packaged with a full independent implementation of the older USB/USB2, going through separate pins in the same socket. It is similar to DVI, except you need a separate passive converter stub to plug VGA monitor to DVI socket, but you don't need one to plug a USB client to an USB3 host.
21:00:08 <b_jonas> `learn ATA is the new name for what old-timers know as IDE, a bus connecting the motherboard to hard disks or CD/DVD drives. ATA has a 40 pin socket and a 80 wire ribbon cable connecting up to two drives to a motherboard socket.
21:00:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'ata': ATA is the new name for what old-timers know as IDE, a bus connecting the motherboard to hard disks or CD/DVD drives. ATA has a 40 pin socket and a 80 wire ribbon cable connecting up to two drives to a motherboard socket.
21:01:41 <b_jonas> Why it has 80 wires for 40 pins, only electric engineers know
21:04:14 <HackEgo> Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
21:04:18 <HackEgo> select is a very versatile construct: it waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, and more.
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21:07:13 <zzo38> In SQL you can even use a SELECT command without a table, in order to make a calculation with a single row.
21:07:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and ais523 mentioned that INTERCAL has a binary operator called select, which should really be mentioned in here,
21:08:11 <b_jonas> but the wisdom is too long so we somehow have to compress it
21:08:28 <b_jonas> and I'm not good in concise writing
21:09:17 <b_jonas> the reference to the INTERCAL operator would probably be something like "removes bits, " but it doesn't fit right now
21:09:18 <zzo38> Yes that too, I forgot that one
21:09:44 <b_jonas> I know the SELECT command works without a table, but I don't think we have to mention that in this wisdom
21:10:06 <b_jonas> we can't give a full description of all these meanings of select here
21:10:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: it already doesn't mention the perl one-arg select function, which would be "sets the default output handle" or something
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21:12:03 <b_jonas> I think I should work on "a dropdown list element, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, " either just making the latter shorter, or replacing them with a single unified description
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21:17:57 <b_jonas> Are some of you good writers? Please help with this entry.
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21:33:55 <Elronnd> I don't understand, how did this USB disk end up with 6 partitions?
21:39:22 <b_jonas> someone or some tool partitioned it?
21:40:08 <b_jonas> or it's one of those usb disks sold with some crap disk encryption driver utility, and so has an unencrypted partition, an encrypted partition, and a few partitions supplying the encryption software
21:41:32 <Elronnd> When I got it, the partitioning looked fine
21:41:42 <Elronnd> I forget what I did with it to make it like this
21:41:59 <Elronnd> But using dd to put an OS on it seems to have fixed the problem
21:49:32 <b_jonas> oh, that reminds me, I should test ais523's terminal escape code tests in my builds of urxvt
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21:59:40 <fizzie> `learn SBus is the standard bus in many a Sun SPARC-based system, capable of coping with thirty-two (32) bits in parallel, at rates of around 16.67 to 25 MHz. There is a 96-pin connector, and the cards lay parallel to the motherboard, like toppings on a sandwich.
21:59:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'sbu': SBus is the standard bus in many a Sun SPARC-based system, capable of coping with thirty-two (32) bits in parallel, at rates of around 16.67 to 25 MHz. There is a 96-pin connector, and the cards lay parallel to the motherboard, like toppings on a sandwich.
22:00:13 <fizzie> `` mv wisdom/sbu wisdom/sbus # plurals are hard
22:03:22 <fizzie> Yes, but I thought I had no reason to go all fancy.
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23:02:47 <izabera> https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/libbf does anyone have a backup of this?
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23:37:55 <Taneb> I kind of want to try Lutefisk
23:38:57 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Nnnnnn.
23:39:25 <Nnnnnn> This nick change is not related to Lutefisk at all
23:39:40 <Nnnnnn> Despite being a noise I could make upon trying the delicacy
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23:43:33 <zzo38> Quantum Mysticism is neither science nor pseudoscience, although it is scientifically based. However, as a Wikipedia writer has said, 'New-age writers feel entitled to sick the word "quantum" in front of just about anything', and this is what results in completely nonsense and is not proper Quantum Mysticism.
23:44:04 <Taneb> Quantum Pseudoscience
23:44:46 <zzo38> Yes, there is a lot of that too unfortunately
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23:46:15 <zzo38> Yes, and there is also a lot of that. Many people will try to write "quantum" even though they do not understand physics nor mysticism
23:46:28 <zzo38> (Nor even proper reasonability!)
23:48:40 <shachaf> How can I tell whether I understand proper reasonability?
23:48:57 <zzo38> Apparently it is impossible?
23:52:02 <Taneb> zzo38, I'm planning to take a module next year on Quantum Information Theory
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23:53:38 <zzo38> I didn't know that, but now I can know!