00:00:25 z(a,b) is defined as the smallest ordinal number c such that c > a, c > b, and c is not the value of z for any smaller a, or for the same a with a smaller b. 00:00:33 tswett: i think that should be the Tardigrade hth 00:00:56 oerjan: I think I agree. th 00:01:07 Now, it's not obvious to me that that function is well-defined. 00:01:57 z(0,b) is simply the successor of b, and it's obvious that the successor function "misses enough" ordinal numbers. 00:02:25 (That is: the collection of ordinal numbers which are not in the image of the successor function is isomorphic to the collection of all ordinal numbers.) 00:02:30 tswett: didn't we discuss this earlier 00:02:41 Maybe. 00:02:45 i recall it almost melted my brain 00:02:52 but that somehow, there were enough gaps 00:03:15 Yeah. So, why are there always enough gaps? 00:05:33 Fuzzy Bag Typing 00:07:22 Wait, I'm starting to remember, I think. 00:07:31 Suppose you have some function f on the ordinal numbers such that for all x, f(x) > x. 00:08:11 Then you can start at any ordinal number and iterate f on it. This will give you an infinite increasing sequence of ordinal numbers. Then take the limit of that sequence. 00:08:41 That number that you just got, that limit, can't be in the image of f. 00:09:05 f needs to be increasing 00:09:19 Does it? 00:10:12 Yeah, I guess it does. 00:10:31 The infinite sequence that you get is increasing even if f is not increasing. But, uh... 00:10:53 maybe you can take supremums of f(0)...f(x) 00:11:05 My train of thought fell down a mine shaft. 00:11:12 (MTOTFDAMS) 00:11:33 hi, welcome to the mine of brain liquification 00:11:49 So, this makes z well-defined. 00:12:08 Now, it happens that the entirety of z has "enough gaps", too. 00:12:31 Why? 00:13:01 BRRAAAINS 00:13:20 * oerjan saves his brain by not even trying 00:13:32 do you want a refreshing pooch pic to soothe your brain 00:13:44 MAYBE 00:14:36 http://i.imgur.com/K59pAb5.gifv 00:16:02 -!- tromp_ has joined. 00:16:21 `? adu 00:16:25 Bye! 00:16:33 oerjan: ? 00:17:13 `` hg log wisdom/adu 00:17:14 changeset: 7004:4c654b530cd9 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Feb 25 04:20:01 2016 +0000 \ summary: le/rn adu/Bye! 00:17:38 shachaf: what does that mean? 00:17:44 shachaf: a very pouchy pooch 00:18:02 what's a pouch 00:18:03 `le/rn adu/Do you know adu? Adu adu adu adu adu! 00:18:05 Learned «adu» 00:18:06 what's a pooch? 00:18:21 @wn pooch 00:18:22 *** "pooch" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 00:18:23 adu: see above gifv hth 00:18:24 pooch 00:18:26 n 1: informal terms for dogs [syn: {pooch}, {doggie}, {doggy}, 00:18:28 {barker}, {bow-wow}] 00:18:30 v 1: round one's lips as if intending to kiss [syn: {pooch}, 00:18:32 {pooch out}] 00:18:51 shachaf: oh, you mean a baggy dog 00:18:57 adu: someone added a wisdom for you. it wasn't very good, so i imprevod it hth 00:19:04 uh I mean oerjan 00:19:09 oerjan: it previously meant "adu" as in "bye" hth 00:19:10 oerjan: thanks :) 00:19:16 as in "adieu" 00:19:33 shachaf: I'm well aware of the french saying 00:19:44 but in fact, "adu" is short for "andydude" 00:19:47 Aware of the French saying what? 00:20:10 I used to use "andydude" as my login to irc, but I registered "adu" and now I have no choice 00:21:08 adu: you know you 00:21:18 're allowed more than one nick here hth 00:21:26 oerjan: NONSENSE 00:21:27 you can even group them 00:21:41 like adu_sleeping 00:22:40 or adu_zzz 00:22:46 or adu_slumber 00:22:52 or adu_work 00:22:54 shachaf: ♫ Si meg, hva betyr adjø... ♫ 00:23:17 Yes, make a better adjective... 00:23:37 I like that song 00:24:18 oerjan: The pooch has pooches which contain smaller pooches. 00:25:33 The Neverhood was so good 00:25:36 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14xcsz43Kuw 00:26:32 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:26:34 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:29:48 `` hg log wisdom/adu 00:29:49 changeset: 7017:e40713f3412a \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Fri Feb 26 00:18:04 2016 +0000 \ summary: le/rn adu/Do you know adu? Adu adu adu adu adu! \ \ changeset: 7004:4c654b530cd9 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Feb 25 04:20:01 2016 +0000 \ summary: le/rn adu/Bye! 00:30:03 adu: Yes? 00:30:17 hppavilion[1]: I didn't say anything 00:30:49 hppavilion[1]: I was simply testing a hypothesis, which turned out to be true 00:32:37 my hypothesis was that it was cumulative, and it is 00:34:47 -!- augur has joined. 00:39:14 hello 00:41:24 adu: One data point is not enought to turn a hypothesis into a theory 00:41:54 hppavilion[1]: tell that to my success story! 00:42:28 adu: Are you a young earth creationist? 00:46:59 Pokadots that will rip you to shreds given the chance <-- *polkadots hth 00:47:50 oerjan: No. 00:48:02 Yes. 00:50:16 hppavilion[1]: I'm going to pretend I know what you're talking about 00:51:05 adu: You haven't heard of young earth creationists? 00:51:17 hppavilion[1]: I've heard of creationists 00:51:19 adu: They're the guys who think the universe is 6000 years old, same as the earth 00:51:32 Created by gaaaaaaaaaaaawd 6000 years ago 00:51:35 those are people who believe the universe is 6000 years old 00:51:47 I'm not sure what "young earth" means in that context 00:51:56 adu: Creationists are broader than the young earth creationists 00:52:02 hppavilion[1]: no 00:52:11 adu: There are two types- old earth and young earth 00:52:20 hppavilion[1]: wut 00:52:31 Old earth at least try to mix some basic science- the things we know for a fact to be true- into their beliefs 00:52:33 how do they explain older stuff? 00:52:51 adu: God created everything to look older than it is 00:52:52 adu: "young earth creationists" are the subset of creationists who have a specific time in mind for the creation of the earth that's on a relatively small timescale, normally somewhere around 4000 BC 00:53:01 hppavilion[1]: WhAuT? 00:53:06 Young earthers throw science out the window 00:53:23 hppavilion[1]: I believe that the universe is older than anything in the universe 00:53:29 adu: They think we can see stars >6000 light-years away because god created the universe with everything already here 00:53:38 (everything = light) 00:53:48 hppavilion[1]: I also have a very strict definition of "universe" and "spacetime" 00:54:14 adu: Fair enough 00:54:49 hppavilion[1]: a "spacetime" is all that we will ever know: 3D space + time, but the "universe" is all that exists, and all this popsci mumbo jumbo about "paralell universes" is, in my dictionary, talking about "parallell" spacetimes, not universes 00:55:05 It's funny that wikipedia says "Fictional superhero" instead of just "superhero" 00:55:28 adu: I think you mean the multiverse hth 00:55:31 so my dictionary does not contain the word "multiverse", since obviously, it is a synonym for "universe" 00:55:40 hppavilion[1]: lol, I hate you for that 00:56:11 adu: Usually, the Universe only covers things we can get to without a particle accelerator from here to Alpha Centauri 00:56:24 hppavilion[1]: that's called a Spacetime, sir 00:57:10 adu: No, it's the universe 00:57:33 hppavilion[1]: no, it's a spacetime, which most people inaccurately equate with the universe 00:58:23 The Universe, is by definition, all that exists, if multiple spacetimes exist, then they exist within The Universe, by definition 00:58:30 this is just pure logic, it's not an opinion 01:06:00 @tell huh... but I thought I reverted something else <-- you tried to `revert a command that didn't actually change anything hth 01:06:02 Consider it noted. 01:06:03 oops 01:06:09 @tell b_jonas huh... but I thought I reverted something else <-- you tried to `revert a command that didn't actually change anything hth 01:06:10 Consider it noted. 01:06:50 oerjan: that's a long way back 01:09:37 shachaf: um it was during the recent `list mess 01:09:49 yes 01:09:52 that was a long time ago 01:10:09 shachaf: are you an extremely young earth creationist 01:10:52 oerjan: perhaps i'm a veetan 01:11:29 oerjan: shachaf didn't deny it 01:11:53 i'm not all that young anymore 01:12:13 but i'm certainly an earth creationist 01:12:18 what other sort of creationist would i be 01:13:34 bleh, that moment when you're curious about what the `list is and yet don't want to check 01:14:40 ais523: go for it 01:14:44 What's the worst that could happen? 01:14:54 I'd end up on a list 01:18:08 ais523: Are there any things that won't make my brain heart with cardinality > 𝔠? 01:18:10 ... 01:18:26 \oren\: Do newer versions of neoletters have 𝔠? 01:28:41 Ugh 01:28:50 My left arrow key seems to have stopped working 01:31:07 -!- lynn has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:34:44 I want to make an unlambda derivative 01:34:52 Then write a fake O'reilly book about it 01:34:58 Though I'm not sure what to call it 01:35:33 ais523: that sounds like a hashtag 01:36:06 #thatmomentwhenyourecuriousaboutwhatthelistisandyetdontwanttocheck 01:39:19 If call/cc is GOTO, what's COMEFROM? 01:39:50 adu: Do you know? 01:40:19 call/cc isn't GOTO 01:41:03 shachaf: It's the functional equivalent, according to wikipedia 01:42:52 hppavilion[1]: do you mean try0catch? 01:43:01 "try-catch" 01:43:19 adu: For what? comefrom? 01:43:32 Or as the functional GOTO 01:43:35 hppavilion[1]: call/cc is CAMEFROM, cc is GOTO 01:43:46 adu: Ah. 01:43:54 hppavilion[1]: or perhaps you mean (dynamic-wind) 01:44:06 adu: Oooh, what's that? 01:44:14 hppavilion[1]: it's like try-catch 01:44:36 hppavilion[1]: it ensures that it's 3 arguments are all executed, in order, regardless of exceptions thrown 01:45:16 (dynamic-wind a b c) will execute c, even if a and b throw exceptions 01:45:27 What happens if the function you pass to a call/cc is another continuation? 01:45:27 My left arrow key seems to have stopped working <-- it's spreading! 01:45:27 or call a "cc" from somewhere else 01:45:48 hppavilion[1]: then the world starts to explode 01:46:04 hppavilion[1]: actually, then you're just returning an address 01:46:04 adu: But then you call a continuation and it stops exploding 01:46:19 ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)) is when the world explodes 01:46:32 Oh, right 01:47:40 adu: In esolisp, should I include call/em instead of call/cc as primitives? 01:47:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:48:20 hppavilion[1]: my personal opinion is that all you need is call/ec, which is like call/cc, but the continuation cannot escape the lexical scope of call/ec 01:48:35 adu: And what does ec stand for? 01:49:01 https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/cont.html#%28def._%28%28lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fletstx-scheme..rkt%29._call%2Fec%29%29 01:49:12 "escape-continuation" 01:49:53 hppavilion[1]: scratch that, "dynamic extent", not "lexical scope" 01:50:06 s/lexical scope/dynamic extent/ 01:50:19 adu: You're much smarter than me. Can you help me with #esoteric lisp? 01:50:31 Passively, if you prefer 01:50:34 hppavilion[1]: as if lisp isn't esoteric enough ;) 01:50:50 adu: That's the tagline ;) 01:50:54 I'm not smart, I just read a lot 01:51:45 adu: That works too 01:51:47 for example, I once deployed an update to every server with an extra comma, that caused all of our servers to crash, repeatedly 01:52:11 I think I deleted the comma about 4 hours later 01:52:29 which, of course, made me feel like an idiot 01:52:44 * adu hates commas 01:55:04 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:56:30 adu: Is there something I could do for CF in esolisp that would be completely unexpected? 01:56:41 what is CF? 01:57:12 nobody expects the Spanish initialization! 01:57:28 hppavilion[1]: in Python? 01:57:35 lisp? 01:57:44 adu: Control Flow 01:57:47 oh 01:57:53 adu: Esolisp, probably implemented in python 01:58:20 hppavilion[1]: force all control flow to be in the form of unevaluated associated lists 01:58:35 dafuq? 01:58:45 hppavilion[1]: basically switch-case 01:58:55 Ah 01:59:02 adu: I want something functional xD 01:59:18 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 01:59:22 imagine a world, in which if is deprecated, else is a thing of the past, your only hope, is switch-case 01:59:28 adu: Are there any completely strange GOTO-like constructs I could functionalize? 01:59:33 Not just a jump, something different 01:59:43 hppavilion[1]: you could go way back 01:59:46 hppavilion[1]: way way back 01:59:52 Listening 01:59:53 like now scheme is at R7RS 02:00:05 but in R1RS there was this thing called tagbody 02:00:09 that was kind of like goto 02:00:13 but so f*cked up 02:00:18 -!- AlexR42 has joined. 02:01:04 * hppavilion[1] googles it 02:01:07 MY EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYES 02:01:08 lol 02:01:25 adu: Not only is it weird and confusing with an IMproper implementation 02:01:38 adu: I'm also reacting to plain-font code 02:02:20 lol 02:02:22 adu: If call/cc is functional GOTO, what's functional IF? 02:02:35 hppavilion[1]: arc if is probably the most obscure 02:02:37 Not the construct named IF necessarily- the one that evaluates one of its arguments based on another 02:02:42 lisp and schem use 3-argument if 02:03:09 adu: I'm going for what you get if you use call/cc like JMP in compiled code; what does IF look like then? 02:03:10 arc if is equivalent to lisp and scheme (cond), so (if a b c d e) actually means (if a b (if c d e)) 02:03:25 Wat 02:03:28 ya 02:03:42 adu: So conditional call/cc 02:03:47 hppavilion[1]: no, just if 02:03:57 it's like the classic if-elseif-else 02:03:59 adu: No, I'm talking about conditional call/cc 02:04:11 hppavilion[1]: conditional on what? 02:04:15 (call-with-current-continuation-if- cond func else) 02:04:19 adu: Various 02:04:32 https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Dynamic-Wind.html 02:04:34 adu: Basically, it's the functional equivalent of low-level JMP 02:05:05 adu: And I'm wondering what happens if we exactly transcribe the implementation of IF-THEN to JMPs into functional programming 02:05:11 Do you get what I'm trying to say? 02:05:13 hppavilion[1]: oh, you want delimited-continuations 02:05:18 adu: Is that it? 02:05:33 https://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/prompt.html 02:05:51 prompt is like "global = address" 02:05:59 abort is like "address = global" 02:07:09 adu: I'm not sure you understand, but odds are it's me who isn't understanding 02:07:30 hppavilion[1]: I think one of the issues with goto's in scheme is that all previous attempts involve going where you've gone before 02:07:59 if you want to jump to a place *after* everything you've done, then you probably just need to invent a name for it 02:08:09 adu: Ah, yes, that 02:08:19 and define it as "current_address = given_address" 02:08:55 adu: What I'm trying to say is this 02:09:05 adu: You know how call/cc is sort of like a JMP? 02:10:18 yes 02:10:48 as opposed to CALL, which manipulates the stack 02:11:31 adu: OK, and you know how if-then in imperative languages is implementable in terms of JMP 02:11:41 yes 02:11:47 Well, conditional JMP 02:12:11 adu: What happens if you implement if-then the same way, but in terms of conditional call/cc (and functionalizing everything)? 02:12:24 adu: Is it just (if x y z), or does it make something new? 02:12:47 (call/cc (lambda (return) (if x (return y) (return z)))) 02:13:34 adu: So it's exactly the same then? 02:13:35 OK 02:13:37 hppavilion[1]: there are more possibilities, like you can return y in places that are not technically tail-calls 02:16:24 Ah 02:16:25 like without call/cc, then (begin a b c d e ... z) would always return z 02:16:26 adu: JMP:CJMP::call/cc:??? 02:16:26 but with call/cc, then (call/cc ... (begin a b c (return y) ... z)) would return y instead of z, even though z is a tail call 02:18:29 hppavilion[1]: so really call/cc should be called convert-return-into-a-function 02:18:54 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:19:10 hezzo38 02:29:30 -!- FreeFull has joined. 02:36:43 I really love the breathiness of finnish glottals 02:39:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:39:58 -!- andrew_ has joined. 02:44:19 -!- ais523 has quit. 02:44:20 -!- XorSwap has joined. 02:56:10 <\oren\> there should be language-independent languages 02:56:31 <\oren\> err i guess that was meaningless 02:57:07 <\oren\> i mean a programming language which is independent of natural language 02:58:56 <\oren\> e.g. the keywords like print etc would be eliminated in favor of symbols 02:59:06 \oren\: so you end up with emojis? 02:59:12 <\oren\> yah 02:59:19 <\oren\> that would work 03:00:51 <\oren\> techically bf is an example 03:07:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:16:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:21:08 \oren\: APL/J/K seem to share that philosophy. 03:40:06 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 03:49:57 -!- bb010g has joined. 04:01:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:10:20 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:21:53 I guess so 04:32:21 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:38:12 -!- Elronnd has changed nick to newguy_. 04:44:27 -!- newguy_ has changed nick to Elro. 04:44:34 -!- Elro has changed nick to Elronnd. 05:03:44 \oren\: Befunge almost counts, except for the p and g commands. 05:07:39 \oren\: AppleScript uses numbers as symbols internally, which are displayed as translatable text 05:07:39 <\oren\> I made a plane kinda like the Saab Gripen in KSP 05:09:23 <\oren\> i suppose if you have translations for every keyword it could work, but ideally you would make it so that anyone can just read code written by someone who speaks a different language 05:09:47 \oren\: you need to deter identifiers then? it would be very hard. 05:10:03 that will surely end up as an esolang 05:24:37 -!- jaboja has joined. 06:07:22 -!- XorSwap has joined. 06:07:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:16:29 unlambda `c``sii interests me now 06:16:46 -!- Guest16721 has changed nick to atslash. 06:21:08 So ```sii`c``sii creates an infinite loop... 06:21:11 Unlambda is fun! 06:29:41 I should ruin it by introducing objects! 07:18:13 OH MY GOD 07:18:20 THE FIRST HIGH-LEVEL LANGUAGE WAS 2D 07:18:27 what was it? 07:18:43 izabera: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plankalkül 07:19:05 izabera: Unfortunately, the one code examples is in the 1990s revision, which was designed to be implemented 07:19:25 Can't believe they changed such a major feature and still called it Plankalkül 07:30:19 ``` perl -e bin/revert 07:30:31 Illegal division by zero at -e line 1. 07:30:54 hppavilion[1]: that's not really surprising, since the first form of APL was 2D too (as in, using arrows for gotos or something. 07:30:57 ) 07:33:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:34:27 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:40:41 -!- element118 has joined. 07:49:08 The talk page mentions a few other things too 07:49:51 (Apparently the only "word" built-in is FIN which means the program is finished if 1 is assigned to FIN) 07:50:59 They also mention the programming language that has only control structure is a for loop 07:54:45 which kind of for loop? 07:55:46 the fortran DO loop? 08:11:17 -!- singingboyo has joined. 08:12:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:18:24 ah yes, great QC comic. Jeph does these sorts of montages great. 08:18:40 He did them multiple times. 08:24:49 Huh? The second Conspiracy set (announced a few weeks ago but more details given yesterday) will be focused on multiplayer games after a draft with cards affecting draft? 08:28:40 Isn't that also true of the first Conspiracy set? 08:28:47 I didn't know there'd be a second one. 08:30:21 shachaf: the draft part is true, but as far as I know, the multiplayer isn't. maybe I just didn't pay much attention. 08:30:30 shachaf: and the second one isn't released yet. 08:30:33 Conspiracy was designed for multiplayer games. 08:30:40 They had all those voting cards. 08:30:41 Um, ok. 08:30:57 In that case I just didn't pay attention to that set. 08:31:17 http://magiccards.info/query?q=o:%22Will+of+the+council%22 08:31:27 Those cards make much more sense with more than two players. 08:31:52 true 08:38:49 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 08:45:08 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:54:36 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 08:54:41 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:21:36 -!- singingboyo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:22:56 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:35:01 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:44:09 http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2016/02/25-1/sleeping-pokmon-kabigonsnorlax-becomes-15m-size-cushion *_* 09:47:54 gimme that gimme that gimme gimme 09:49:09 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:55:11 -!- tromp_ has joined. 09:59:25 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 10:05:47 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 10:28:58 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:38:45 `? hat 10:38:55 hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo 10:39:11 `? high hat 10:39:13 high hat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:39:14 `? black hat 10:39:17 black hat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:39:19 `? white hat 10:39:21 white hat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:39:24 `? top hat 10:39:26 top hat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:39:46 `? hi hat 10:39:47 hi hat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:39:47 `? hihat 10:39:48 hihat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:39:49 `? hi-hat 10:39:50 hi-hat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:07:43 -!- adu has joined. 11:09:40 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit). 11:37:49 -!- boily has joined. 11:51:38 -!- element118 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 11:55:50 -!- tromp_ has joined. 11:59:57 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:09:31 -!- llue has quit (Quit: That's what she said). 12:28:59 -!- boily has quit (Quit: BURST CHICKEN). 12:34:48 -!- adu has joined. 12:41:05 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 12:51:55 `? infinite 12:52:01 `? meta 12:52:12 meta? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:52:13 infinite? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:57:20 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:07:19 -!- andrew_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:26:28 `? rint 13:26:29 `? lrint 13:26:31 `? trunc 13:26:32 lrint? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:26:33 rint? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:26:33 trunc? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:26:34 `? llrint 13:26:35 llrint? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:33:02 what are you doing 13:34:30 trying names of arithmetic functions for the wisdom database 13:34:36 but I'm no wiser from what it returns 13:35:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:48:09 -!- bender| has joined. 14:03:27 -!- ais523 has quit. 14:03:37 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 14:03:42 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Changing host). 14:03:42 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 14:04:04 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 14:08:38 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:10:50 -!- ais523 has quit. 14:10:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:14:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 14:14:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:21:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:22:21 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 14:22:42 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 14:26:34 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 14:27:07 -!- augur has joined. 14:27:17 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:27:26 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 14:28:31 ns ghost ais523 14:28:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 14:28:36 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 14:28:44 good thing I don't enter my password for ghosting… 14:30:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 14:32:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:36:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:36:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: No route to host). 14:36:44 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 14:39:13 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:39:22 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 14:41:19 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Client Quit). 14:41:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:42:18 -!- tromp_ has joined. 14:44:26 ais523: truly 14:46:59 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:47:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:51:57 `? now you see 14:52:05 now you see? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:52:33 What do I see now? 14:53:01 obvsiously that was a ghost password. 14:54:14 * oerjan gets all but two pairs in today's xkcd, and guesses the remaining... 14:54:50 oerjan: there's always http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page 14:54:59 `? It's 'cause you're dumb 14:55:02 OKAY 14:55:03 It's 'cause you're dumb? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:55:17 actually there's only one i cannot even recall seeing before 14:55:21 `? explainxkcd 14:55:22 explainxkcd? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:55:29 the one with jay and the other guy 14:57:15 b_jonas: i think i'll have to go there for the last name in the hovertext 14:59:22 they seem to have paired with Hall 15:02:05 the streak of regular what-if updates seems to have caught a snag 15:03:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:16:14 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:19:23 -!- lynn has joined. 15:31:45 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:46:14 -!- XorSwap has joined. 15:48:57 -!- jaboja has joined. 15:53:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:03:48 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:07:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:11:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:12:43 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:14:09 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:14:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:16:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:18:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:20:01 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 16:20:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:25:55 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:26:11 -!- callforjudgement has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:28:27 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 16:34:29 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 16:35:50 -!- ais523 has quit. 16:36:14 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 16:36:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 16:37:29 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 16:39:41 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 16:39:41 -!- zadock has joined. 16:40:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 16:41:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:45:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 16:46:57 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 16:49:17 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 16:51:17 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 16:51:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 16:51:59 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 16:53:55 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 16:54:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 16:54:13 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 16:59:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:59:56 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 17:00:28 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 17:01:48 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 17:02:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:03:09 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 17:04:18 I'm worried compiling boost is going to blow up my computer :| 17:06:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:06:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:08:48 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:12:44 -!- atriq has joined. 17:13:51 -!- gde33 has joined. 17:13:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: …). 17:14:36 -!- nortti_ has joined. 17:14:55 -!- bender| has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:15:23 -!- nortti has quit (Disconnected by services). 17:15:27 -!- ski_ has joined. 17:15:29 -!- jix_ has joined. 17:15:33 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti. 17:15:40 -!- shachaf_ has joined. 17:15:40 -!- digitalc1ld has joined. 17:15:54 -!- atehwa_ has joined. 17:16:00 -!- b_jonas_ has joined. 17:20:34 -!- gde33|2 has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:34 -!- idris-bot has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:35 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:35 -!- catern has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:35 -!- digitalcold has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:35 -!- APic has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:35 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:35 -!- Melvar has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:36 -!- Taneb has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:36 -!- j-bot has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:36 -!- b_jonas has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:36 -!- shachaf has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:36 -!- ski has quit (*.net *.split). 17:23:13 -!- Reece` has joined. 17:23:20 -!- catern has joined. 17:26:48 -!- Melvar has joined. 17:27:20 -!- APic has joined. 17:28:38 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:34:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 17:37:31 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:44:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:48:35 -!- impomatic_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:00:16 -!- shachaf_ has changed nick to shachaf. 18:03:59 -!- lynn_ has joined. 18:07:01 -!- lynn has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:14:33 -!- j-bot has joined. 18:15:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:25:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:28:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:29:15 What is the λ-calcular definition of the S combinator using the classic notation? 18:29:26 That is, one variable after the λ 18:29:39 So K is λx.λy.x, not λxy.x 18:30:33 i'm sure you can figure out how to curry it 18:31:30 hppavilion[1]: S = \x->\y->\z->(xz)yz 18:31:42 -!- b_jonas_ has changed nick to b_jonas. 18:32:00 b_jonas: Oh, I thought you didn't need parentheses in that notation 18:32:10 quintopia: I know, but I wanted the parenthesis-free notation 18:34:13 i would have thought it is x z (y z) 18:35:28 `` ls bin | grep explain 18:35:36 No output. 18:35:56 myname: I think both work, the latter is just the more common notation 18:36:04 Then again, I'm an idiot 18:36:30 well, no 18:36:35 they are different things 18:36:57 application is evaluated left to righr by definition 18:37:15 myname: oh right, I'm stupid 18:37:16 i.e. (xz)yz should be no different from xzyz 18:37:27 indeed, S = \x->\y->\z->xz(yz) 18:37:28 sorry 18:45:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:48:41 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:48:55 Most functional programming corresponds to Hilbert-Style Deduction Systems (many axioms, almost no deduction rules (usually just modus ponens)), correct? 18:49:03 "(xz)yz should be no different from xzyz" 18:49:17 which shoulds be no different than xy(z^2) 18:50:45 Elronnd: huh? 18:50:54 what the hell is ^2? 18:51:00 to the second power 18:51:25 you are familiar with the fact that xzyz is no multiplication? 18:53:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:53:51 -!- impomatic_ has joined. 18:56:08 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:57:44 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:58:14 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb. 18:58:46 myname: So was I right about functional programming and Hilbert-style deduction? 19:03:15 Wow 19:03:32 Next year I might have a piece of paper all official and everything saying I know functional programming 19:03:49 so? 19:04:03 You should start lying about it now. Get a jump on the job market 19:04:16 prooftechnique: well, I'm in my third year of a four year degree 19:04:19 Wait, no, most functional programming is based on natural deduction 19:04:23 I don't think that's a jump I can utilize 19:04:25 CL is the hilbert one 19:04:32 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:07:49 Can you base a functional programming language on a deduction rule other than modus ponens? 19:08:43 i never understood why you actually have different rules that basically do exactly the same if you transform your input 19:09:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:09:38 like, how is p -> q & p => q another rule than p | q & -p => q 19:09:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 19:09:46 they do exactly the same thing 19:10:06 myname: For example, could I have a language that completely forgoes modus ponens and instead uses hypothetical syllogism? 19:10:21 (aka function composition) 19:14:23 myname: That's what normalization is for 19:14:33 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 19:22:37 Functional language that corresponds to the Sequent Calculus? 19:24:28 hppavilion[1]: how would it work? 19:25:02 It seems to me (not having thought about this before) that modus ponens is inherently used when evaluating any sort of code 19:25:03 See http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gentzen for one way to make programming with a sequent calculus 19:25:38 (It lacks the implication operator) 19:27:16 hm 19:27:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:28:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:30:02 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:37:47 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:38:27 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:39:55 -!- zadock has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:47:49 Oh god 19:48:00 hppavilion[1]: ? 19:48:00 I'm trying to make the Haskell of Sequent Calculi 19:48:06 Vorpal: ^ 19:48:09 ah 19:48:15 Vorpal: I'm reading the correspondence and have no clue what's going on 19:48:33 um? 19:49:10 hppavilion[1]: apparently zzo already designed a language like that 19:49:15 Vorpal: Oh, great 19:49:19 Vorpal: I'm making one too 19:49:24 See http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gentzen for one way to make programming with a sequent calculus 19:49:24 (It lacks the implication operator) 19:49:24 hm 19:49:35 hppavilion[1]: might want to look at it 19:49:41 I am 19:50:17 hppavilion[1]: I'm too tired to make any sense of it. The dangers of lying in a comfortable sofa with a laptop 19:51:37 hppavilion[1]: Also I never ran into sequent calculus before, but to me it appears to be a rather complicated way of expressing things. Does it have additional power compared to classic logic? Or what is the big deal? 19:51:45 -!- lleu has joined. 19:51:46 -!- lleu has quit (Changing host). 19:51:46 -!- lleu has joined. 19:53:11 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 19:53:21 Vorpal: Really, I'm trying to make a kit of languages based on the CHI 19:54:05 hm 19:54:08 hppavilion[1]: Also I never ran into sequent calculus before, but to me it appears to be a rather complicated way of expressing things. Does it have additional power compared to classic logic? Or what is the big deal? 19:54:26 hppavilion[2]: still interested in that question, once your internet stopped messing up for you 19:54:45 Vorpal: It's not my internet, it's school internet 19:55:02 Vorpal: And it's not the internet, it's me getting on and off my computer because I have to move to go do things 19:55:12 Vorpal: And I don't want people messing with my laptop while I'm gone 19:55:21 hppavilion[2]: fair enough 19:55:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:55:32 Have to get up 19:55:36 hppavilion[2]: anyway 19:55:39 what about the question 19:56:06 Vorpal: Which question in particular? 19:56:20 I left right after you said you were too tired 19:56:42 hppavilion[2]: hppavilion[1]: Also I never ran into sequent calculus before, but to me it appears to be a rather complicated way of expressing things. Does it have additional power compared to classic logic? Or what is the big deal? 19:56:45 Oh 19:56:48 That one 19:56:55 Vorpal: I'm not sure; I don't understand it yet 19:57:01 fair enough 19:57:01 Vorpal: I think it's just different, and a bit eso 19:57:18 hppavilion[2]: it just looks like a more complicated way to express implication 19:57:22 Vorpal: It's a generalization of natural deduction, which reminds me of Horn Clauses 19:57:52 instead of (P and Q) -> (X or Y) you write P, Q |- X, Y 19:57:59 Or have I missed something 19:58:01 Yeah, that's what I'm getting 19:58:12 Vorpal: I think the point is that you can ONLY do stuff in that format 19:58:18 Ah 19:58:21 And that format provides you with different ways of looking at things 19:58:23 Like cuts 19:58:30 cuts as in? 19:58:35 Vorpal: Let me type it out 19:58:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:59:01 oh wow, today's roborosewater card (Seating Tute) is hilarious 19:59:14 If you have A, B |- q and C |- p, A, it looks like you can syllogize it into C, B |- q, p 19:59:44 Vorpal: That's a cut ^ 19:59:48 I think 19:59:51 um... 19:59:55 hppavilion[2]: no it isn't 20:00:08 also, you seem to have an extra element today 20:00:18 cut is A |- B and B |- C syllogizing into A |- C 20:00:43 something that mathematical logicians like doing is proving that it's admissible (i.e. any given cut, you can replicate using other rules of the logic) 20:01:00 ais523: OK, good. The world makes sense again. 20:01:33 ais523: I'm hppavilion[2] when hppavilion[1] is taken, usually when I get off the computer then get back on too soon 20:02:17 I know it's an alternate nick 20:02:27 but making amusing comments about people's alternate nicks is an occasional #esoteric tradition 20:03:21 cut is A |- B and B |- C syllogizing into A |- C <-- isn't this just A->B, B->C giving you A->C. 20:03:34 in classical implication ways of writing it 20:03:55 Vorpal: well treating |- as -> is a common "intuitive" way to think about mathematical logic 20:04:09 but they aren't the same operator and if you want to use them the same way, you have to prove it 20:04:16 -!- ais523 has quit. 20:04:36 yep 20:04:50 they aren't even of the same type 20:05:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:05:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 20:06:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:06:17 I'm attempting to make a language kit called ChiLan (or something) that demonstrates the Curry-Howard Isomorphism 20:06:58 ais523: yes, they aren't even of the same type. and the Gödel completeness theorem for first-order logic is one of the most interesting theorems of logic, both for the result itself and because of its two proofs. 20:06:59 What's a good event-driven model of computation? 20:07:09 ais523: hm, fair enough 20:07:11 hppavilion[2]: pi calculus 20:07:13 And is there a logic it corresponds to? 20:07:20 ais523: OK, I'll look into that 20:07:20 hppavilion[2]: wait, where's your [1]? 20:07:21 and yes, also pi calculus :-) 20:07:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 20:07:36 hppavilion[2]: are you hppavilion[1]'s Evil Twin? 20:07:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:07:42 what's my quit message? 20:07:48 for these random disconnects? 20:07:50 ais523: Client Quit 20:07:52 Or () 20:07:53 * ais523 has quit (Client Quit) 20:07:57 gah 20:08:01 * ais523 has quit () 20:08:04 ais523: Client Quit (which means your client sent an explicit QUIT 20:08:12 Konversation's just randomly deciding my network is down 20:08:15 with no evidence for this 20:08:18 and quitting in response 20:08:34 but your connection didn't live for long enough to send the quit message to us) 20:08:56 ais523: I think it's sometimes the server. When an irc server randomly decides to quit you, it invents fake reasons for why he did so. 20:09:09 b_jonas: no, I'm pretty sure it's the client 20:09:22 based on the messages it's printing 20:09:28 ok, that's possible too 20:09:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 20:09:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:09:50 [20:09] [Info] Disconnected from irc.freenode.net (port 6667). 20:09:52 [20:09] [Info] Network is down, will reconnect automatically when it is back up. 20:10:07 ais523: I think for me, it's mostly the network, because I get similar disconnections to non-irc stuff sometimes 20:10:13 and the "network is down" is normally based on the network up/down status from NetworkManager 20:10:18 the network connection from the machine that is 20:10:24 but then, why would you send a quit if the network is down? 20:10:27 you wouldn't expect it to be received 20:10:28 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 20:10:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 20:11:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:11:29 ais523: the tcp socket can breaks in one direction, so the QUIT you send can get through even if what the server says can't get to you. eventually there's a timeout because of the one-directional break, but the QUIT still gets through. 20:11:39 I restarted my client in case it helped 20:16:27 Wait wait. 20:16:51 Does Wizards have at least three different announcements for the second Conspiracy set, each giving a different name for the set? 20:17:00 Wtf. 20:17:11 It's not April's Fool yet 20:17:42 um, M:tG set 20:18:01 ais523: Do you understand the rho-calculus? 20:18:09 hppavilion[2]: no 20:18:16 ais523: Damn 20:18:28 ais523: I was hoping to incorporate rho expressions into EsoLISP 20:18:46 b_jonas: basically they had one announcement that they edited a couple of times, citing events in the plane on which Conspiracy takes place having overtaken them 20:19:03 first they announced it was about Brago, but then a few hours later they announced that Brago had been assassinated 20:19:07 so they had to change the name of the set 20:19:18 I see 20:19:24 (also they removed one card from it) 20:19:33 then today they went and added a card back in and renamed it again 20:19:52 as in, removed Brago? 20:19:55 ais523: Is a #esoteric official LISP a decent idea? 20:20:01 b_jonas: they didn't say which card was removed 20:20:08 hppavilion[2]: you'll never get #esoteric to agree on an official anything 20:20:26 also, I don't agree with restricting the language choices that the channel can use 20:20:28 ais523: A #esoteric pseudo-official LISP? 20:20:30 sometimes one langauge is better than another 20:20:36 ais523: It's not a restriction 20:20:51 ais523: It's just as restricting as forget-me-nots being the Alaska state flower 20:20:54 are you creating an esolisp or just a regular lisp specialized for implementing esolangs? 20:21:00 hppavilion[2]: oh I see 20:21:00 There's no rule against actually using it 20:21:07 *against not using them 20:21:16 ais523: I think the goal is to do both xD 20:21:31 but Underlambda isn't a lisp :-P 20:21:37 ais523: A LISP designed for implementing esolangs in an eso way :P 20:21:49 (actually, that's aiming for three goals: being an esolang, being easy to implement esolangs with, and being easy to implement in esolangs) 20:21:52 wait, "new conspiracies that twist the rules against your foes"? how is that an interesting feature of the set? that's the point of one of the Golden Rule: M:tG cards often change the rules, and usually in a way that helps you against your foes. 20:22:03 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:22:09 ais523: And I want to incorporate rho expressions- rhoexp : lambdaexp :: rhocal : lambdacal 20:22:13 Why do they put such meaningless marketing language in the annoucnement? 20:22:32 b_jonas: all announcements seem to be like that 20:23:01 the people who get annoyed by them aren't the audience that the announcement is aiming to reach 20:23:28 you might want to read through the most recent GDS (sadly I don't have a link), one of the things they discussed was marketing taglines 20:23:39 hmm 20:23:47 the most recent one is the second one, right? 20:25:29 I think so 20:26:42 I do remember fake set names given, but most of them were for reprint sets with the announcements on April's Fools, with the exception of Mirrodin Pure in which case they were clear about how it can be fake from first place. 20:26:58 You remember Mirrodin Pure, right? That was marketing for a future set done right. 20:28:16 `? mirrodin pure 20:28:19 `? icfp 20:28:22 `? icfp contest 20:28:26 icfp contest? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:28:26 icfp? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:28:26 mirrodin pure? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:29:17 Oh, that reminds me 20:30:23 There's an esolang for which I should create an article on the wiki. Or at least I think it's an esolang. 20:31:18 If a new language is created for the purpose of the designer wanting to create an implementation for a language, but with limits that make the language very restricted or hard to use, 20:31:36 but the goal isn't to make the language bad, but to make the implementation simple under some conditions, 20:31:50 then would that count as an esolang, or is it instead a non-esolang for educational purposes? 20:32:12 Huh. eso- means "within" 20:32:46 b_jonas: brainfuck and FALSE are both in that category 20:33:04 (both designed to have small compilers) 20:33:05 Taneb: ah yes, and I think Mouse is too 20:33:31 although brainfuck is sort of a special case, because it's very early 20:35:24 Hmm, I wonder if I have my implementation for this stuff. Although it's very simple-minded, so I might not actually want to publish it. 20:36:27 I wrote it ages ago, and I'm not sure where it is. Probably only somewhere in my old backups. 20:36:41 (I found a doc-bug with it.) 20:37:30 Ok, whatever, if someone wants, they can just write a new implementation. It's not hard. 20:38:34 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 20:41:55 b_jonas: Mirrodin Pure backfired I think, there are /still/ people asking for the card list to be released 20:42:15 b_jonas: basically they had one announcement that they edited a couple of times, citing events in the plane on which Conspiracy takes place having overtaken them <-- okay that is a neat PR thingy 20:43:26 ais523: strange. I sort of remember some people writing that they thought Wizards has actually made two sets and were to decide on which one to release very late, but I don't understand where that came from, because it seemed clear enough from their communication that that's not the case. 20:43:29 -!- carado has joined. 20:44:12 ais523: although I'm not surprised that people are confused _now_, because the Wizards webpage is horrible, it's hard to find information about old sets and other old stuff 20:44:21 they should make the website more informative 20:44:40 every time they try to change the website they make it worse :-( 20:44:45 what is the prefix for lambdabot now again? 20:44:51 the general consensus just seems to be that Wizards are terrible at computers 20:44:52 ais523: that too, sure 20:44:54 Vorpal: @ or ?, both work 20:45:00 ah, thanks 20:45:11 or > as an abbreviation for @run 20:45:13 ais523: yes, which is strange, because that's a problem they could fix by, you know, hiring people who are good at computers 20:45:30 finding such people should probably be easier than finding people who are good at making games 20:45:35 Hm it doesn't seem to respond in /msg? Pretty sure that used to work 20:45:39 b_jonas: it could be that they're don't think that would be value for money 20:45:48 ais523: maybe 20:45:48 Oh there we go, it was just super slow 20:46:28 @run 4 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 20:46:32 int-e: you may have a runaway process 20:46:55 ais523: no kidding 20:47:01 ais523: if I want to find listings of old theme decks (and other preconstructed decks), that's hard directly from their site, but the links to the listings are collected on en.Wikipedia (luckily the links to their articles don't usually break, I have to give that much to them) 20:47:24 ais523: but if I want to find the set FAQs (release notes) for old sets, I'm out of luck, I have totally no way of finding them 20:47:25 esolinguiratia: Frustration caused by trying to program or speak in a language that makes absolutely no sense, particularly one not meant to be used, particularly when you're clueless to the fact that you aren't supposed to use it 20:47:36 b_jonas: the links to the articles broke a while back and it took them like a week to fix them 20:48:00 ais523: if I want to find older states of the Gatherer, I have to go to Yawgatog's site. I also have to go there if I want all the info from the Gatherer in a sane format. 20:49:08 At least they have now fixed Gatherer to show flip cards and split cards in a sane manner, which was a long-standing bug, only now there are double-faced cards too, and THEY aren't shown in a sane way. 20:49:20 (I don't know about level up cards, I haven't checked that.) 20:49:54 And one small detail that really annoys me is that they don't have a complete list listing the official two or three letter codes for all old sets. 20:50:14 You can try to guess from various filenames on their websites, but it turns out that for old sets they're sometimes inconsistent. 20:50:30 en.wikipedia has a list, but I'm not sure it's always correct 20:51:00 Wizards has at least made the http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/products/card-set-archive page much saner than it used to be, 20:51:29 so now you can find a list of really ALL sets Wizards ever released (Astral isn't there, but that's not a product by Wizards, but I don't think anything else is missing), 20:52:02 but from that page and what it links to, you can't find the set faqs, the codenames, and other important information. 20:52:23 So there's some things they've improved, but also some things they've never fixed. 20:54:51 On esowiki, is there a category for languages that are fully specified, in the sense that there's no undefined behavior in them that you could use for a future extension? 20:56:16 Such as mod 256 BF with a tape infinite both left and right 20:57:27 ais523: Perhaps I could get people to like Esolisp by adding any good functions requested by channel members to either builtins, the stdlib, or (for large function groups), an external library 20:57:45 b_jonas: I don't think so 20:57:57 there were some unauthorized categories created recently and nobody cared to do anything about it 20:57:58 what about the eso standards? 20:58:02 so you /might/ be able to get away with it 20:58:13 myname: those were mostly arguments about how to standardize the standardization process 20:58:27 I'm not sure we got around to standardizing any actual languages 20:58:27 lol 20:59:31 ais523: I got away with it once, but I don't think I'll create one for this 20:59:43 It's probably a bad idea to use a category for this in fact, 20:59:59 why? 21:00:00 since it will often happen that a language has several variants, grouped in the same article, and only some are fully specified 21:00:03 like with Brainfuck 21:00:29 buildung a subpage? 21:01:11 nah, often there are just too many variants and we're lazy 21:02:18 Ok, let me see what other categories I need then. I need a year, and [[Category:Finite state machine]] since the amount of memory is fixed and small. 21:02:41 Ah, and I need [[Category:Implemented]] 21:03:35 Hmm, does [[Category:Non-textual]] count if the program is a binary file (machine code) rather than a text source? 21:05:13 By the way, why don't we have a separate Appendix: namespace on the wiki for entries that aren't describing a language, eg. [[David Morgan-Mar]]? 21:05:33 -!- augur has joined. 21:05:36 I don't think we normally use non-textual for binary 21:05:47 and because we have Category:Languages 21:05:58 it's meant to be a site about esolanging, not necessarily a directory of esolangs 21:06:07 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:06:11 [[esoteric programming language]] should almost certainly be in mainspace 21:06:13 as should [[OISC]] 21:06:15 ais523: of course, but still, I think this is what mediawiki namespaces for 21:06:33 or at least it's how *.wiktionary uses the namespaces 21:06:36 esolang's modelled quite heavily on wikipedia 21:06:50 (I think it was originally started because of mass esolang deletions on wikipedia?) 21:06:59 ok, whatever 21:07:12 I'll just write the article now 21:07:15 a short one at least. 21:11:44 I should write an article on COMPLEX 21:20:56 zzo38: gopher://gopher.metafilter.com/h/MetaTalk/Direct-your-gopher-client-to-gopher-gophermetafiltercom.html 21:22:33 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 21:22:50 pity I don't have my interpreter at hand, because that one was verified to work (at least mostly) and I could read it more easily than the docs 21:23:13 but it's really old 21:26:24 "Firefox doesn't know how to open this address, because one of the following protocols (gopher) isn't associated with any program or is not allowed in this context." 21:26:33 they removed the gopher client from Firefox? :-( 21:26:39 IIRC it used to work 21:26:45 ais523: yes, firefox hadn't supported gopher for ages 21:29:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:30:17 Yes, although the gopher client included with old versions of Firefox wasn't very good anyways. 21:30:24 There are extensions to support it now 21:33:25 Does anyone know where the iterated prisoner?s dilemma was first mentioned / defined? 21:33:59 The prisoner's dilemma was defined by Tucker in 1950. Not sure about IPD. 21:37:36 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:37:51 -!- heroux_ has joined. 21:38:34 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:38:36 -!- heroux_ has changed nick to heroux. 21:38:55 hi impomatic_! 21:39:10 my feeling is that the iterated prisoner's dilemma was around for a while before people realised that it was different 21:39:13 and gave it a name 21:40:50 -!- lynn has joined. 21:43:03 -!- lynn_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:56:53 -!- Treio has joined. 21:58:04 there 21:58:13 [wiki] [[Viktor's amazing 4-bit processor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46460 * B jonas * (+5144) Created page with "'''Viktor's amazing 4-bit processor''' is an esoteric computer hardware designed and soldered by the physicist Viktor T. Toth in 1999. The goal of the computer was for the cr..." 21:59:08 -!- Treio has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 21:59:43 -!- Treio has joined. 22:00:54 V. T. Toth also created a simple low-level language with arithmetic syntax (sort of like B, the predecessor of C), but I think that one doesn't count as eso, because it was clearly created and used for a practical purpose 22:03:35 -!- Treio has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:07:33 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:08:47 There's some strange syntactic elements in it, like how there are no mandatory semicolons so the statements are separated in a strange way, sort of like lua; and how the dereference operator has a higher precedence than the function call operator; but I think these are only strange to use because we're so used to C. 22:08:52 They're definitely not eso. 22:10:05 -!- AlexR42 has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 22:11:42 Also, it's so much a one-pass compiler that it doesn't even ever patch addresses or values emitted earlier, so there's absolutely no way to refer to symbols defined later. 22:11:51 Which leads to some strange things. 22:11:59 But again, it's certainly not eso by intent. 22:15:25 Doesn't Viktor Toth also run an implementation of the original Essex MUD? 22:15:36 impomatic_: he runs some mud, but I'm not sure what 22:15:39 I suppose it can therefore support streaming and may use less memory than otherwise 22:16:58 zzo38: the webpage says the goal was to use little memory, but I think the actual reason is to make the implementation simple, since the computer he runs them on has a whole MEGABYTE of memory, and runs DOS, and that's more than enough to run a bigger compiler than this properly 22:17:43 zzo38: since it writes the output to a DOS file, storing addresses it has to patch in RAM and later patching them with seek wouldn't be very hard 22:17:49 it would still make it a one-pass compiler 22:18:13 Yes but such thing could be made also which using stdout 22:18:19 even in the sense that the compiled output is ready to run, no need to link 22:18:35 zzo38: on DOS, that doesn't have any significance, because DOS doesn't have pipes 22:18:47 zzo38: would you want to output the compiled program to a serial prot? 22:19:43 Wait 22:19:51 I think I know the reason 22:20:02 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:20:27 he doesn't use all 1 megabytes of memory (or a large part of it), since the compiler is implemented in itself, which makes accessing segments difficult. thus, programs, including the compiler, generally only use linear addresses within one segments, 22:20:49 so he has a total of 64 kilobytes of data memory 22:20:57 but even in 64 kilobytes, this wouldn't be too hard 22:21:15 symbol backpatching would easily fit since he already has a symbol table 22:21:26 for referring to symbols defined earlier 22:29:08 But then, who am I to criticize him? I never wrote a compiler similar to this. 22:29:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:31:55 oi Taneb 22:32:02 Hi, Phantom_Hoover 22:32:32 do you have room in the leeds slash york area for 16 people to sleep tomorrow night 22:32:55 That is very sudden, also no 22:33:16 This your submarine jousting or whatever? 22:33:52 yes 22:34:19 turns out yorkshire isn't full of conveniently available couches like plymouth is 22:34:26 how does submarine jousting compare to bf jousting? 22:34:42 substantially different 22:41:09 Phantom_Hoover: I've asked in the computer science in York channel but I wouldn't be to hopeful 22:41:37 The response thus far has been, and I quote, "noy to the lot of you" 22:43:10 ais523: looking for early mentions of iterated (or repeated) Prisoner's Dilemma turns up a few from the late 50s but they all appear to be behind a paywall :-( 22:44:13 Phantom_Hoover: ooh, I've got a "depends on your threshold for standards of living" 22:57:56 lol 22:58:07 i think we're committed to driving home by now anyway 22:58:56 thanks for the offer though, ofc. you can still show up for an extremely impromptu and distracted #esoteric meetup 23:01:30 You're playing tomorrow? 23:01:34 Alas, I'm in Hexham 23:04:53 -!- ais523 has quit. 23:06:27 Is this jousting with real submarines? In the river? 23:07:00 no, it's hitting a puck on the bottom of a pool with a little stick 23:07:51 -!- augur has joined. 23:08:29 -!- carado has joined. 23:09:50 -!- rdococ has joined. 23:10:04 hey guys 23:10:16 Taneb, that's probably for the best given that we're probably going to embarass ourselves totally 23:12:06 tired 23:15:17 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:16:48 [wiki] [[Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46461&oldid=43374 * Rdococ * (+112) /* Structure */ Added an important note 23:17:00 -!- augur has joined. 23:17:40 to be honest, I just put stub on everything to be safe...should I do that? 23:20:53 [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46462&oldid=44767 * Rdococ * (-69) Oh my god, since when did I have GLaDOS and neurotoxin on my userpage? 23:27:44 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:28:19 -!- augur has joined. 23:41:35 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 23:41:37 So, crazy idea 23:42:16 A language- called World Wide Web Calculus (or WCalc)- that basically is a formal mathematical system for web programming 23:43:06 Kind of amalgamating pi calculus, simply-typed lambda calculus, and some other things into a single, unified language that lets you use math as server-side programming 23:43:32 With things like HTTP requests as primitive objects 23:46:43 Of course, completely declarative 23:49:40 what about a language like HTML, but it programs stuff? 23:50:22 and then it has a tag which describes what the LMTH page looks like (yeah, fancy backwards ffuts) 23:54:34 O, hai rdococ 23:54:38 Haven't seen you in a while 23:54:45 Not since my first few weeks on IRC 23:54:47 :) 23:57:16 hai yay 23:57:45 rdococ: I'm making a demonstration HTTP server 23:58:13 You should probably abbreviate he World Wide Web Calculus as W3C 23:59:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).