00:00:15 <int-e> (for all I know the injections are just to prevent the rapid aging)
00:00:37 <oerjan> and with the family involved, poison should be an obvious deduction.
00:00:48 <oerjan> int-e: yeah they resemble the ones vole had.
00:01:25 <int-e> damn, in real time, when was tarvek stabbed, could be two years ago by now...
00:03:30 <int-e> almost three. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20130429
00:05:01 <oerjan> wait, you meant _our_ real time?
00:05:21 <oerjan> i was just looking up references for comic time
00:06:07 <oerjan> int-e: two and a half has been mentioned in http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20130617 and http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20151125
00:07:22 <oerjan> which incidentally makes it hard to reconcile with the months used for digging the tunnels, unless they started _before_ agatha got loose ... there's some plot hole here.
00:07:45 <oerjan> (the tunnels to the cathedral, that is)
00:08:51 <oerjan> i don't know when gil would have been able to communicate with anyone who would be likely to have told him that tarvek was poisoned.
00:10:21 <oerjan> the fight with martellus, and the time in the monk fortress are iirc the only times he's been in contact with those who passed through the portal.
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00:11:06 <oerjan> in the former, there obviously wasn't much conversation. in the latter, lucrezia took over.
00:11:30 <int-e> of course they started before agatha got loose
00:11:36 <int-e> s father is down there
00:12:40 <int-e> anyway, yeah, let's see how fast Gil reacts
00:13:24 <oerjan> not in the cathedral. they cannot get to the center http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20151202
00:13:32 <int-e> uh, and there's time travel
00:13:38 <int-e> some muse could've tipped Gil off ;)
00:13:52 <oerjan> (i just so happened to reread that yesterday)
00:13:59 <oerjan> or was it this morning.
00:14:18 <oerjan> well othilia is also trapped in mechanicsburg.
00:14:34 <int-e> I mean one of the time traveling ones
00:15:50 <oerjan> seems unlikely if they're the other
00:16:20 <oerjan> a dreen could have, although they're too damn mysterious about it.
00:16:37 <int-e> Sorry, I'm just musing.
00:19:44 <oerjan> i suppose we'll find out soon enough.
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01:06:30 <mad> looks like I'll have to design a tlb/page table/mmu for my cpu :o
01:15:14 <izabera> what's wrong with this code?
01:15:16 <izabera> -- This is an abomination.
01:15:18 <izabera> tokenEquals :: Token -> Token -> Bool
01:15:20 <izabera> tokenEquals a b = kludge a == kludge b
01:15:22 <izabera> where kludge s = Re.subRegex (Re.mkRegex "\\(Id [0-9]+\\)") (show s) "(Id 0)"
01:23:10 <zzo38> They say they will change madness rule of Magic: the Gathering so that now it is mandatory. There may be some interesting consequences with Magic: the Puzzling.
01:23:41 <oerjan> <Lymia> I fixed it. <-- wow.
01:24:05 <zzo38> (It may result in more interesting puzzles perhaps, although some puzzles also might not work with this change; that is why rule datestamps are needed.)
01:24:12 <\oren\> because it is equivalent to comparing two things in C++ by printing them to a stringstream, extracting a part of the string with a regex, and comparing that part?
01:25:52 <izabera> thanks for the explanation
01:26:31 <\oren\> it's a one-liner in haskell because haskell has better syntax and libraries and uh... well better most things
01:27:07 <fizzie> izabera: Clearly what's wrong is that it wasn't written as tokenEquals = (==) `on` kludge where ...
01:28:10 <izabera> i don't get haskell inside jokes, yet
01:29:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, you think I missed the point there?
01:29:38 * oerjan swats fizzie some more -----###
01:29:40 <shachaf> are you really bolding your pun
01:29:53 <fizzie> shachaf: It's better than putting stars around it.
01:30:19 <fizzie> More subtle, don't-cha know.
01:30:27 <fizzie> I forget how you spell "don't-cha".
01:31:04 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this change of madness rule?
01:31:44 <shachaf> fizzie: obviously you should be rainbowing it instead hth
01:31:47 <zzo38> The comprehensive rules aren't updated yet, although apparently the change is that discarding to exile (and triggering it) is now mandatory.
01:31:54 <fizzie> I don't have a rainbow key.
01:32:34 <zzo38> I think improved puzzles might be made due to this change
01:32:47 <shachaf> fizzie: https://github.com/hazel-nut/cslounge-irssi-scripts/blob/master/rainbow.pl hth
01:33:07 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't know the old rule or the new rule.
01:33:29 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_test: 0.0
01:34:52 <zzo38> The current rule is 702.34. If you discard a card with madness you may exile it instead of into graveyard. If you do then it is a triggered ability on the stack; you may cast it for its madness cost, if you do not then it is placed into graveyard instead.
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01:35:39 <zzo38> As far as I can tell the change is just that now exiling it is mandatory instead of optional.
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01:57:27 <\oren\> I'm adding thinner versions of my characters to my font (in the "Math Sans-Serif" area)
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02:12:41 <zzo38> Maybe I might make up my own program to create PCF fonts, rather than using the included program (not all features of PCF seem to be supported as far as I can tell from the BDF documentation)
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02:21:24 <\oren\> Now I'm adding regular bold
02:21:50 <\oren\> (mostly by using the blackboard bold and removing the gaps)
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02:51:29 <\oren\> wait, how the hell do you say "seitokaichou" in english?
02:52:58 <pikhq> "Student body president" or "student council president"
02:53:46 <\oren\> oh, that's why i couldn't remember. it's really long!
02:56:43 <zzo38> What is a number of the form (2^m-1)(2^n) called?
02:58:20 <mad> that's = to 2^(m+n) - 2^n no?
02:58:21 <\oren\> uh... a wunwunwunzeerzeerzero
02:58:30 <mad> so a difference of powers of 2?
02:59:14 <zzo38> Yes it is that too I suppose that make sense now
03:00:43 <Lymia> oerjan, what's weird about fixing things. ;p
03:00:58 <shachaf> @@ @oeis @run take 15 . nub . sort $ [(2^m-1) * (2^n) | m <- [0..5], n <- [0..5]]
03:01:05 <oerjan> Lymia: well i was _almost_ ready to swat you for all the noise when you succeeded
03:01:14 <\oren\> (2^m-1)(2^n) == "1" * m + "0" * n
03:01:22 <shachaf> @@ @oeis @run intercalate "," . map show . take 15 . nub . sort $ [(2^m-1) * (2^n) | m <- [0..5], n <- [0..5]]
03:01:24 <lambdabot> Numbers of the form 2^i - 2^j with i >= j.[0,1,2,3,4,6,7,8,12,14,15,16,24,28...
03:02:20 <\oren\> (in a language where numbers are strings of the charatcers '1' and '0')
03:02:57 <shachaf> \oren\: that language is called computer hth
03:03:40 <oerjan> `learn Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the charatcers '1' and '0'
03:03:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'computer': Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the charatcers '1' and '0'
03:03:55 <oerjan> `learn Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the characters '1' and '0'.
03:03:58 <HackEgo> Relearned 'computer': Computer is a language where numbers are strings of the characters '1' and '0'.
03:04:17 <shachaf> oerjan: You're so pleased with yourself when you use `learn, aren't you.
03:04:55 <oerjan> shachaf: hey everyone loves a learning experience
03:05:06 <Lymia> oerjan, and I only needed to use one published CVE to do it. ^.^
03:05:20 <shachaf> oerjan: Even more than a le/rning experience?
03:05:55 <shachaf> oerjan: please add a wisdom entry for /// twh
03:06:17 <zzo38> shachaf: No, it is unsuitable, please
03:06:42 <zzo38> Because is a directory.
03:06:55 <shachaf> zzo38: Sure, but `? has plenty of special cases already.
03:07:40 <shachaf> you don't think special cases in `? are good?
03:07:45 <shachaf> you're either wisdom or you're against 'em
03:07:51 <zzo38> OK you can edit the `? program itself then if you would need to do that
03:09:35 <shachaf> what fancy food should i make for dinner
03:10:41 <shachaf> diacritics don't make food any fancier
03:11:08 <shachaf> anyway i mean food that i haven't eaten before
03:11:42 <shachaf> that reminds me that i never made that norwegian porridge
03:12:53 <zzo38> `? [citation needed]
03:12:54 <HackEgo> [citation needed]? ¯\(°_o)/¯
03:13:20 <oerjan> `learn CTC stands for Closed Timelike Citation, which is what happens when news sites cite Wikipedia's badly referenced articles and then get added to them.
03:13:23 <HackEgo> Learned 'ctc': CTC stands for Closed Timelike Citation, which is what happens when news sites cite Wikipedia's badly referenced articles and then get added to them.
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03:21:04 <\oren\> finally, the big eye is on the left!
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03:24:25 <\oren\> idea, a language where you use the rtl override and etc characters as unary operators
03:26:19 <\oren\> `learn is the set of rational numbers.
03:26:23 <HackEgo> Learned '': is the set of rational numbers.
03:26:35 <shachaf> Come on, are you just trying to mess with people's terminals?
03:26:56 <HackEgo> 0000000: 7769 7364 6f6d 2ff0 9d95 880a wisdom/.....
03:27:59 <HackEgo> U+1D548 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 9d 95 88 UTF-16BE: d835dd48 Decimal: 𝕈 \ () \ Uppercase: U+1D548 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
03:28:33 <\oren\> oh, right, those assholes put it at ℚ
03:28:44 <HackEgo> [U+211A DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL Q]
03:29:23 <HackEgo> [U+1D54A MATHEMATICAL DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL S]
03:30:29 <\oren\> oh, and in my font, I have both cues, with different glyphs because I forgot about those gaps
03:32:09 <zzo38> That is OK if that is how you would want to design font?
03:54:18 <\oren\> nah, the next version will fix that
03:55:44 <\oren\> `learn would be the set of rational numbers, if the unicode consortium weren't idiots who put it as ℚ.
03:55:48 <HackEgo> Relearned '': would be the set of rational numbers, if the unicode consortium weren't idiots who put it as ℚ.
03:56:31 <mad> is it me or half of what makes a jrpg work is the music?
03:57:19 <\oren\> a good battle theme prevents grinding from getting boring too fast
03:59:04 <mad> true but I'm starting to think that on exploration screens you also need good music or else it's just some guy walking around
03:59:31 <mad> in retrospective the action is very "slow"
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04:03:18 <\oren\> ok! I added 𝐀𝐁𝐂𝐃𝐄𝐅𝐆𝐇𝐈𝐉𝐊𝐋𝐌𝐍𝐎𝐏𝐐𝐑𝐒𝐓𝐔𝐕𝐖𝐗𝐘𝐙𝐚𝐛𝐜𝐝𝐞𝐟𝐠𝐡𝐢𝐣𝐤𝐥𝐦𝐧𝐨
04:03:27 <\oren\> 𝐀𝐁𝐂𝐃𝐄𝐅𝐆𝐇𝐈𝐉𝐊𝐋𝐌𝐍𝐎𝐏𝐐𝐑𝐒𝐓𝐔𝐕𝐖𝐗𝐘𝐙𝐚𝐛𝐜𝐝𝐞𝐟𝐠𝐡𝐢𝐣𝐤𝐥𝐦𝐧𝐨
04:04:11 <\oren\> oh, I don't have the font on my terminal yet so I can't see wtf I'm doing
04:06:38 <mad> IPA characters? (international phonetic alphabet)
04:07:30 <\oren\> 𝐀𝐁𝐂𝐃𝐄𝐅𝐆𝐇𝐈𝐉𝐊𝐋𝐌𝐍𝐎𝐏𝐐𝐑𝐒𝐓𝐔𝐕𝐖𝐗𝐘𝐙𝐚𝐛𝐜𝐝𝐞𝐟𝐠𝐡𝐢𝐣𝐤𝐥𝐦𝐧𝐨𝐩𝐪𝐫𝐬𝐭𝐮𝐯𝐰𝐱𝐲𝐳𝖠𝖡𝖢𝖣𝖤𝖥𝖦𝖧𝖨𝖩𝖪𝖫𝖬𝖭𝖮𝖯𝖰𝖱𝖲𝖳𝖴𝖵𝖶𝖷𝖸𝖹𝖺𝖻𝖼𝖽𝖾𝖿𝗀𝗁𝗂𝗃𝗄𝗅𝗆𝗇𝗈𝗉𝗊𝗋𝗌𝗍𝗎𝗏𝗐𝗑𝗒𝟎𝟏𝟐𝟑𝟒
04:08:06 <\oren\> bold and thin ersions of alphanumberics
04:08:39 <shachaf> i,i what's an erosion of a character?
04:09:27 <\oren\> mad: I'v had basically all of IPA[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C in this font for a while
04:09:49 <\oren\> ok why is irssi glitching me again
04:10:31 <oerjan> `` sed -i "s'unicode consortium'Unicode Consortium'" wisdom/
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04:14:50 <\oren\> maybe irssi glitches after running continuously for 4 weeks
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04:30:09 <\oren\> who the hell would sign up on profitico.net?
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05:50:04 <zgrep> Hrm. Well, profit-con. Not profit icon. But a profit (religious) icon would be interesting as well.
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06:20:44 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, any currency can be related to any other with a single rational number greater than 0.
06:25:37 <zzo38> Now I wrote a C program that will execute the _SEND_RESOURCE protocol on a window, and now I will make it so that another program can receive such requests and process them.
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06:42:57 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I had an idea of a negative currency, where the most you can have is zero
06:43:59 <\oren\> rather than giving someone a dollar for a chocobar, you would instead agree to take a negadollar off them
06:44:15 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_quantum_mechanics is a thing
06:47:50 <\oren\> taxes would consist of the government giving negadollars to the people with the least.
06:48:43 <\oren\> and welfare would be the government taking negadollars from people who have too many
06:49:10 <pikhq> http://gravityfalls.wikia.com/wiki/Negative_Twelve_Dollar_Bill Such as this?
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06:52:41 <\oren\> I know the basic properties of rings and groups
06:53:26 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Is there a way to check for associativity/commutativity/etc that I'm too stupid to notice? It doesn't seem like there is
06:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Or more generally, if I create a ring, how do I make sure it's really a ring?
06:55:12 <\oren\> generally that requires a proof
06:55:50 <hppavilion[1]> Though I was expecting it, because it seems pretty obvious
06:55:56 <\oren\> python, like most practical languages, isn't designed for its behaviour to be mathematically provable
06:56:04 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Is there a workaround? Other than forcing the user to supply a formal proof?
06:56:32 <\oren\> well if your set is finite ou can just try every pair
06:56:58 <hppavilion[1]> (Though now that I think about it, I'm making a goddamn proof automaton for this, so I could just force a formal proof to be supplied, which is probably how I should do it anyway)
06:57:08 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Potentially infinite, but I think I just found the solution
06:57:33 <\oren\> or every three for associativity law
06:58:46 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: What I'm trying to make, to sate your burning curiousity </sarcasm> is a proof assistant that does a lot of category theory and stuff. Mostly so I can use it to explore category theory.
07:01:03 <\oren\> then maybe you should start with a smpler test case, say a group with three elements
07:11:41 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: OK, implemented groups. The final version will require that you first prove an operator has associativity and inverses and identity, but for now it has no checks
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07:30:10 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Say, how do you prove associativity and commutativity?
07:30:39 <hppavilion[1]> Or are there known-to-be-associative and known-to-be-commutative operators you must define others in terms of?
07:53:33 <b_jonas> “<zzo38> Maybe I might make up my own program to create PCF fonts, rather than using the included program (not all features of PCF seem to be supported as far as I can tell from the BDF documentation)” - wait, what pcf features? I'm interested now
07:55:34 <b_jonas> “<zzo38> The current rule is 702.34. If you discard a card with madness you may exile it instead of into graveyard. If you do then it is a triggered ability on the stack;” wait what? instead of what into gy, and the card what a triggered ability?
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08:03:41 <b_jonas> zzo38, shachaf: “<shachaf> oerjan: please add a wisdom entry for /// twh” => let's just make wisdom s\/\∕\g the keys, then we can put slashes at the beginning and end and use significant multiple slashes too
09:10:30 <izabera> http://azac.pl/cobol-on-wheelchair/
09:13:21 <impomatic> taneb: https://robotgame.net/ is working again :-)
09:20:10 <myname> izabera: these ^H don't make sense at all
09:23:41 <myname> also, finally banks can make better websites
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11:41:02 <HackEgo> translater/A translater is one who transes a long time after the fact.
11:45:59 <HackEgo> A transformer is one who used to trans, but no longer does.
11:59:13 <int-e> `learn The linker (from german "links") is a part of a Turing machine that's responsible for moving all output data to the left of the tape before terminating.
11:59:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'linker': The linker (from german "links") is a part of a Turing machine that's responsible for moving all output data to the left of the tape before terminating.
12:00:15 <fizzie> `learn A compiler (lit. "with-piler") is one who builds piles together with someone else.
12:00:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'compiler': A compiler (lit. "with-piler") is one who builds piles together with someone else.
12:03:00 <myname> so... what is a transpiler?
12:03:26 <Taneb> myname, a transpiler (lit. "across-piler") is someone who builds piles across things
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12:04:14 <boily> `learn An interpreter (Latin "inter-", Old French "prestre") is unofficial correspondence between ordained members of the Church.
12:04:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'interpreter': An interpreter (Latin "inter-", Old French "prestre") is unofficial correspondence between ordained members of the Church.
12:04:24 <myname> "why is there a wall on the street" "must have been a transpiler"
12:04:48 <boily> `` sed -i 's/german/German/' wisdom/linker
12:05:29 <HackEgo> "Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
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12:07:28 <int-e> `learn_append boily He is also a renowned Capitalist.
12:07:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'boily': "Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist.
12:08:15 <boily> my wisdom is becoming Entish...
12:08:50 <int-e> feel free to retaliate, that one seems a bit short ;-)
12:09:35 <b_jonas> int-e: heh, that's a nice interpretation for the linker
12:10:18 <boily> int-e: I need to learn Swedish first.
12:10:42 <boily> @ask olsner hellolsner. care to expand int-e?
12:10:56 <b_jonas> int-e: although I think that's not the whole linker, just the part that's called collect2, which collects the output. the linker has a few other parts.
12:12:15 <int-e> b_jonas: but those have nothing to do with "links" so I omitted them
12:12:39 <b_jonas> I just wonder if collect2 should be mentioned somewhere
12:13:48 <b_jonas> Maybe we should say something referring to that the linker is traditionally called ld for historical reasons, but in the gnu toolchain it's called collect2 (the reality is much more uglier than that)
12:14:47 <boily> why is it called ld?
12:16:26 <int-e> or LoaDer... "Possible origins of the name "ld" are "LoaD" and "Link eDitor"." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_linker
12:16:35 <b_jonas> I think it's called ld because people like me set up aliases to ls like l() { ls -aF "$@"; }; ll() { ls -alF "$@"; }; and would also like to set up ld () { ls -dlF "$@"; }; but that latter would clash with the linker
12:16:57 <b_jonas> I think it stands for load though
12:17:09 <int-e> bash: l: command not found / bash: ll: command not found ... never saw the point
12:17:11 <b_jonas> it was called loader originally, back when it worked differently from now
12:17:57 <int-e> though arguably I type too much when using the shell. I make up for it by using ^R a lot.
12:19:57 <b_jonas> int-e: I think actually I should do away with the -d stuff, and instead patch ls to add a new dwim switch that automatically applies -d to only the pathname arguments that don't end with a slash, and then alias ll to use that switch
12:20:05 <b_jonas> but I haven't implemented that yet
12:20:18 <b_jonas> the -d switch is useful but too much bother on command-line
12:21:11 <boily> int-e: I ^U everything, then wonder why it doesn't work outside of the shell...
12:21:28 <boily> (it works in firefox, because pentadactyl but that's cheating.)
12:21:52 <int-e> for some reasong I use ^A^K
12:23:11 <b_jonas> int-e: probably an emacs habit
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13:08:57 <b_jonas> ARGH! I hate commands that can both list useful info or do something more destructive, and you if you make a typo on the list version it automatically turns to the destructive version. eg. 'git branch -a' lists branches, but if you typo it to 'git branch üa' then poof, you get a branch üa created. similarly, in irssi, /server list lists the servers you are connected to, but if you typo it like /server lsit then poof, you get disconnected from a server
13:09:08 <b_jonas> \ eg. 'git branch -a' lists branches, but if you typo it to 'git branch üa' then poof, you get a branch üa created. similarly, in irssi, /server list lists the servers you are connected to, but if you typo it like /server lsit then poof, you get disconnected from a server
13:09:39 <b_jonas> Neither are very destructive, because you can delete the üa branch or reconnect to the server later, but still
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13:20:10 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ucCxtgN6sc retrocomputing
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14:13:29 <b_jonas> heh heh: in less, the keystroke sequence ZZ quits, as well as Q , but the sequence ZQ is a nop
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15:05:19 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Say, how do you prove associativity and commutativity? <-- there is no one method. sometimes you can just expand equations using things you already know. sometimes you can check all cases. sometimes you need a genuinely new trick.
15:06:07 <fizzie> But what about the TOOWTDI principle!
15:06:23 <myname> provide an isomorphism to something associqtive and commutative
15:06:24 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] generally you want to know as many tricks as possible that you can use, that goes for all math.
15:06:25 <Taneb> Two Old Owls Won't Try Doing It?
15:06:39 <fizzie> Taneb: "There's Only One Way To Do It" https://wiki.python.org/moin/TOOWTDI
15:06:47 <oerjan> fizzie: that's why python is lousy for proofs hth
15:06:49 <Taneb> That makes slightly more sense
15:07:05 <myname> that is basically why i hate python
15:07:21 <izabera> you hate it because perl is much better?
15:07:36 <fizzie> izabera: You sounded like Eliza there for a moment.
15:07:44 -!- izabera has changed nick to elizabera.
15:08:05 <elizabera> fizzie: how does it make you feel that i sounded like Eliza there for a moment?
15:08:16 <fizzie> elizabera: What do you think?
15:08:38 <fizzie> elizabera: Can you elaborate on that?
15:09:10 <elizabera> you could at least change your nick to elizzie :p
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15:10:04 <fizzie> An Eliza-Eliza dialogue seems less vibrant than M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead.
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15:12:19 <fizzie> Oh, the Zippy lines were deleted? http://sprunge.us/YKKg isn't really going anywhere either.
15:15:57 <oerjan> fizzie: i take it that response is bitching about having to remove it...
15:16:04 <fizzie> You might get somewhere with just emacsclient -e '...' and a bit of elisp. The function to call seems to be "doctor-doc", but it's hardcoded to type into buffer, you'd need some extra work.
15:16:08 <fizzie> oerjan: That's my impression as well.
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15:38:35 <lambdabot> Are we THERE yet? My MIND is a SUBMARINE!!
15:38:50 <fungot> b_jonas: a similar rule applies to everyone who's missing one of the files of arbitrary type ( despite the fact that many of them all ibm. but if an array is an international manufacturer of measurement and computation products and services are used to thank god for ange ftp, or is he taking a beating lately as he
15:39:16 <oerjan> fungot: you don't sound very much like zippy.
15:39:16 <fungot> oerjan: what bothers me a pointer to match its depth inside the mail tools that hide its contents from the b drive. well, yeah. the
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15:51:43 <fungot> prooftechnique: to debug my .twmrc file to rm. you could only figure out
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15:54:02 <fizzie> fungot not balancing punctuation is a longstanding bug; I implemented it in the Perl, but never managed to be bothered to do it in the Funge.
15:54:03 <fungot> fizzie: pascal compiler to adjust the stack look like a unix recently. it will change the object file, each of the year to the c programming environments, with the extra loop is ignored, and
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15:57:07 <oerjan> fizzie: just steal some of the code from ^bf hth
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16:44:39 <fizzie> @tell oerjan And, what, retry until everything's balanced?
16:44:45 <fizzie> That should've been @ask.
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17:38:07 <Taneb> AlphaGo (Google's Go AI) is taking on the world champion starting tomorrow
17:43:51 <b_jonas> weren't they supposed to, like, improve their program to play go better for another two years or something?
17:44:19 <b_jonas> oh wait, how much time was there between the previous match and its announcement? maybe that two years has already passed
17:44:52 <Taneb> https://deepmind.com/alpha-go.html
17:44:56 <Taneb> There's been a few months
17:45:25 <b_jonas> first tournament with European champion was in 2015-10, announced in 2016-01-27
17:45:26 <int-e> the last match was in october
17:45:55 <b_jonas> so they had a few months to improve it only
17:47:42 <int-e> So they've had about 5 months. Lee Sedol (their opponent in the upcoming match) is approximately 3rd best in the world. (http://www.goratings.org/ puts him in fourth place but there are some good arguments for Iyama Yuta being overrated in that list.)
17:48:57 <b_jonas> and they're playing 5 matches, it seems
17:49:19 <int-e> . o O ( it's a 5 games match )
17:50:46 <int-e> anyway it'll be interesting to see how this turns out
17:51:01 <b_jonas> And time time the matches are published live.
17:52:14 <fizzie> Any betting going on yet?
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17:54:33 <b_jonas> ais523: I have some rants. no real news I think.
17:54:46 <b_jonas> uh, except when you last left, your last message asked to tell you that it went throuhg
17:55:22 <int-e> fizzie: Well, I have no doubt that Lee would walk over the October version. But it's so hard to predict Alphago's progress, and the team seems to be fairly confident... so I'm unsure what to expect (though I'd be a bit surprised if any of the players wins all their games.)
17:55:27 <ais523> I hope Lymia found it useful
17:55:34 <b_jonas> oh, and I made Lymia start to doubt if LuaJoust can be made to work
17:55:51 <fizzie> "placing a winning 1 BTC bet on: Yes pays: 1.01133196 BTC No pays: 1.00958558 BTC"
17:55:51 <b_jonas> because you'd have to change Lua a lot to make it deterministic
17:56:02 <fizzie> Where "Yes" is on AlphaGo winning.
17:56:08 <b_jonas> I put some notes on esolangs
17:56:19 <ais523> fizzie: that's one of the worst spreads I've ever seen
17:56:21 <b_jonas> I think I should add to them too
17:56:24 <ais523> who'd bet at those combined odds?
17:56:30 <fizzie> ais523: People have bet 131.47 BTC on this.
17:56:37 <int-e> https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/ looks even; https://www.gjopen.com/questions/133-will-google-s-alphago-beat-world-champion-lee-sedol-in-the-five-game-go-match-planned-for-march-2016 favors alphago a bit.
17:56:51 <ais523> also 1 BTC is very large for a bet
17:56:59 <fizzie> Well, it was just an example.
17:57:04 <fizzie> You don't need to bet a full bitcoin.
17:57:12 <ais523> right, I'm wondering if that has something to do with the odds being so bad
17:57:24 <int-e> fizzie: wait, what are the other options?
17:57:26 <fizzie> But there seems to be about 54 thousand dollars already riding on this.
17:57:26 <ais523> like, maybe the site can't afford to pay out more than about .01 BTC given the number of bets so far
17:57:48 <int-e> Lee dies after the second game?
17:57:51 <fizzie> int-e: There are no other options. It's a yes-no question.
17:58:19 <fizzie> I don't know how this thing works, I'm just looking at https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/
17:58:28 <fizzie> There's a 5.1 BTC bet from someone on "Yes".
17:58:32 <b_jonas> ais523: also, zzo38 claims that the pcf (x bitmap font) format can probably do things that the bdf2pcf program can't generate from a bdf file, which surprised me
17:58:43 <Lymia> b_jonas, there's only one real major issue
17:58:56 <Lymia> Objects like tables hash to their addresses.
17:59:12 <ais523> Lymia: fwiw I think that even if it isn't determinstic it isn't a disaster
17:59:21 <b_jonas> Lymia: two. floating point stuff is the other
17:59:22 <ais523> there have been probabilistic BF Joust hills already
17:59:27 <ais523> the only reason we run all 42 is because we can
17:59:28 <int-e> oh, wait... shouldn't the two payouts satisfy 1/a + 1/b = 1 at least approximately?
17:59:31 <Lymia> It changes the game significantly.
17:59:40 <Lymia> Because bots can make truly random decisions.
17:59:59 <ais523> Lymia: true randomness and cryptorandomness are effectively indistinguishable
18:00:01 <Lymia> But I'd have to figure out if that's really an issue too.
18:00:12 <ais523> and you can write a deterministic CSPRNG
18:00:14 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but we want the matches to be reproducible
18:00:28 <Lymia> I wanted true determinism because that means that programs can be rewritten as BFJoust programs.
18:00:40 <b_jonas> ais523: just giving the program a random stream (good quality or bad quality, whatever) with a fixed seed wouldn't be a problem
18:00:56 <ais523> Lymia: ah right, I see
18:01:23 <b_jonas> ais523: the problem is that you can write programs that will run differently in two tournament servers, and succeed on both (luajoust programs can fail, since they can overflow the memory or otherwise generate exceptions)
18:01:43 <ais523> b_jonas: fwiw, zzo38 proposed that , generates random numbers, but I was very much against it because it exceeds the speed of light
18:01:54 <ais523> and in particular, you could just use , to set randomly sized decoys very quickly
18:01:59 <Lymia> I don't think failures due to such conditions are a particular problem.
18:02:20 <Taneb> ais523, what about , works randomly as either + or .
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18:02:38 <Lymia> I'd rather have something more subtle
18:02:46 <b_jonas> ais523: are you against it in the same way as you'd be against labels and if-goto-else-goto?
18:02:48 <ais523> Taneb: that would work, I think; however it'd still make the game very defence-unfavoured
18:03:03 <Lymia> ,x < randomly either runs x or .
18:03:09 <ais523> b_jonas: much the same way but more strongly
18:03:22 <ais523> Lymia: does the , cost a cycle?
18:03:54 <Lymia> , would behave as a modifier to the next instruction
18:04:02 <Lymia> It causes it to do nothing 50% of the time
18:04:28 <Lymia> So ,] I think, would have a 50% chance of not checking the current cell and proceeding as if nothing happened? hrm
18:04:36 <Lymia> Might just make it illegal
18:04:56 <ais523> ,] would be an interesting loop escape mechanism, actually
18:05:12 <ais523> if you assume that ,[ and ,] just have a 50% chance of interpreting the current cell as 0
18:05:22 <ais523> and otherwise act normally
18:05:27 <ais523> this reminds me of Befunge2K
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18:16:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lua Joust]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46544&oldid=46543 * B jonas * (+890)
18:17:45 <b_jonas> ais523: repeating rant I said earlier today,
18:18:03 <b_jonas> ARGH! I hate commands that can both list useful info or do something more destructive, and you if you make a typo on the list version it automatically turns to the destructive version.
18:18:04 <ais523> that said, I'm currently against any changes to the BF version of Joust, I think it's in a good place
18:18:16 <b_jonas> eg. 'git branch -a' lists branches, but if you typo it to 'git branch üa' then poof, you get a branch üa created. similarly, in irssi, /server list lists the servers you are connected to, but if you typo it like /server lsit then poof, you get disconnected from a server.
18:18:19 <int-e> Oh, wtf is that "weight" business on bitbet...
18:18:26 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, that's kind-of crazy
18:19:27 <int-e> ...basically they mean that betting late makes no sense.
18:22:52 <b_jonas> ais523: and indeed as I work with git, I find that the default command-line interface is crazy, but at least that can be fixed by new commands.
18:29:10 <Lymia> I picked Lua because it was simpler than Python and had the coroutine semantics.
18:29:15 <Lymia> Which obviously work very well for the task at hand.
18:29:57 <Lymia> I'm not sure I care about determinism in the sense of libc or platform differences.
18:30:02 <b_jonas> lua is a good choice, it's just that very few languages like this do determinism
18:30:08 <Lymia> That can be left as a quirk of different hills.
18:30:27 <b_jonas> Lymia: it's not just libc differences. the stuff can change if you recompile your program and the cc decides to generate code differently.
18:30:30 <Lymia> What I do care about is unpredictable behavior that can cause different behavior on two runs on the same system.
18:30:36 <b_jonas> Lymia: as in, it can commute a floating point addition
18:30:51 <b_jonas> it can change if you just edit the code or some options and recompile
18:31:11 <Lymia> I... still don't care?
18:31:27 <Lymia> I think my goal is best stated as the two following ideas:
18:31:41 <ais523> b_jonas: ccs can't commute floating point operations unless you permit them to
18:32:23 <Lymia> Or, well, really one particular idea.
18:32:43 <Lymia> Every program can be rewritten into an equivalent (very very long) BFJoust program.
18:32:52 <Lymia> That would behave identically.
18:33:01 <Lymia> I don't care if this program changes when you recompile something, or if you move to another computer.
18:33:11 <Lymia> But I do care that it is possible for that one particular hill, or instance at that particular time.
18:34:49 <int-e> did some more bitbet math. The initial two bets will pay out about three times their value if realized... 0.126 bitcoins for the first and 0.188 bitcoins for the second bet. So if they were made by the same person, that person would have a guaranteed win by now...
18:35:05 * int-e concludes that bitbet is weird.
18:37:03 <int-e> Well, almost guaranteed.
18:37:13 <b_jonas> ais523: they can, as in they can commute floating point addition, multiply, max and min, since commuting those still gives the result prescribed by the IEEE float rules. (They can also do similar transformation on subtraction.) the cc can't _associate_ them differently.
18:37:46 <ais523> b_jonas: what happens if you add two NaNs with different payloads?
18:38:02 <zzo38> I did not propose that , generates random numbers.
18:38:20 <zzo38> I prposed that , generates whatever number was at the current cell when the other program executed a . command
18:38:49 <zzo38> Or acts like . if the other program hasn't
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18:40:03 <b_jonas> ais523: per IEEE math, you get a quiet nan, but it's not specified which. x87 and sse both have defined precise rules for which nan, but the x87 one is sane and commutative, the sse one isn't. I don't know why Intel changed the rules.
18:40:08 <ais523> maybe you made more than one proposal
18:40:42 <b_jonas> ais523: basically iirc the rule is that if both inputs are quiet nans, on x87 you get the one with the higher mantissa (I'm not sure what sign if they're of the same mantissa), and on sse you get the first operand.
18:41:16 <b_jonas> ais523: the rule could be changed again if the cpu added new instructions, but it takes like two decades till everyone actually starts to use those new instructions.
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18:54:04 <zzo38> Now that I have made a extension to ICCCM, who is it supposed to be send to?
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19:23:32 <zzo38> b_jonas: Did you misunderstand what I wrote about madness rule of Magic: the Gathering cards?
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19:52:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: probably, I don't understand what your proposed rule was
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19:55:09 <zzo38> I was proposing nothing; I was mentioning what the current rule is and what an article from Wizards of the Coast claims they would be changing it to.
19:56:42 <zzo38> The current rule is that when you discard a card that has a madness ability, you may discard it to exile instead of to the graveyard (it is still discarded, but placed in a different zone). Doing this puts a triggered ability on the stack. When it resolves, you must either cast that card for its madness cost, or put that card into your graveyard.
19:57:33 <zzo38> The change that they seem to be making is simply to make discarding to exile mandatory instead of optional (forcing it to trigger).
20:00:49 <zzo38> I believe that this can make many improvements for Magic: the Puzzling, such as that in some situations you may not be able to avoid giving your opponent priority during the cleanup step (or your opponent cannot avoid giving you priority during cleanup step) due to this, or a triggered ability forced to place on stack, or a card can more easily be exempted from Tormod's Crypt, etc
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20:39:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Staticsn0w * New user account
20:41:44 <zzo38> Wait of what? Elaborate.
20:42:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: I just found out that msc 2015 supports constexpr. now I'll have to look up what else is new in it.
20:44:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46545 * Staticsn0w * (+322) Created page with " == Features == !!! consists of some extra features compared to !!!Batch, like a space character (?+?) and a compiler that doesn't just compile to a batch file, it compiles to..."
20:45:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46546&oldid=46545 * Staticsn0w * (+112) /* Features */
20:47:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46547&oldid=46501 * Staticsn0w * (+10) /* Non-alphabetic */
20:52:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46548&oldid=46546 * Staticsn0w * (+208) /* Features */
20:55:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46549&oldid=46548 * Staticsn0w * (-1) /* Hello world! */
20:55:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46550&oldid=46549 * Staticsn0w * (+5) /* Hello world! */
20:57:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46551&oldid=46550 * Staticsn0w * (+81) /* Features */
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20:58:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46552&oldid=46551 * Staticsn0w * (+5) /* Features */
21:00:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46553&oldid=46552 * Staticsn0w * (+1) /* Features */
21:03:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!Batch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46554&oldid=42305 * Staticsn0w * (+29)
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21:12:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Self-modifying Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46555&oldid=44408 * Mbomb007 * (-13) The examples page on the creator's website are from 2006.
21:16:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Self-modifying Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46556&oldid=46555 * Mbomb007 * (+21) Brian & Chuck is similar. Quiney is not.
21:16:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Self-modifying Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46557&oldid=46556 * Mbomb007 * (+7)
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21:28:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brian & Chuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46558&oldid=45122 * Mbomb007 * (+0)
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21:49:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Self-modifying Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46559&oldid=46557 * Mbomb007 * (+1630) Added more documentation
21:51:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Self-modifying Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46560&oldid=46559 * Mbomb007 * (+91) added link to another interpreter
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22:31:35 <ais523> hey, weird question that might be perfect on #esoteric
22:31:48 <ais523> anyone have ideas for how to get hold of the relocation table of a Windows DLL while running on Linux?
22:32:36 <zzo38> Did you try 7-Zip? I don't know if that helps at all, although I know it can do something with Windows executable files (I am not quite sure what though)
22:32:39 <b_jonas> ais523: um, objdump from gnu binutils, recent enough version of?
22:32:56 <b_jonas> ais523: you have a copy of the dll, right?
22:33:43 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, just objdump can't parse it
22:33:50 <ais523> "File format not recognised"
22:34:06 <b_jonas> ais523: is it an x86_32 or x86_64 dll? and is your binutils not too old?
22:34:30 <ais523> it's distro binutils for the current version of Ubuntu
22:34:47 <ais523> really we're trying to settle a question about what sort of relocations Windows DLLs have in general
22:35:27 <b_jonas> ais523: dunno, last time I tried to figure out how to decide whether a windows x86_64 file is a dll or an exe, if you only have its content, not the correct name. I couldn't find a way.
22:35:50 <b_jonas> ais523: as in, I don't see anything in the objdump output that distinguishes between those two cases.
22:35:57 <zzo38> When opening DLL with 7-Zip I get a ".reloc" section, although I am not sure what its format is, or if it is what you need
22:36:15 <ais523> zzo38: it looks promising
22:36:17 <b_jonas> ais523: but it's strange if objdump doesn't parse the dll
22:36:37 <b_jonas> so far I only tried to parse windows dlls with objdump on windows
22:36:45 <b_jonas> and I'm not sure if I tried to parse x86_32 dlls at all
22:37:06 <b_jonas> it may make a difference because I think they might be using different top-level formats (I'm not sure)
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22:55:17 <fizzie> My "i686-w64-mingw32-objdump" parses a random x86_32 DLL just fine.
22:55:55 <fizzie> Well, I assume it's "fine", I have no wayof telling. It doesn't complain, and there's lots of information in the -x output.
22:56:15 <ais523> -R fails but -x gives some relocations, which is what I was looking for
22:56:23 <ais523> I don't understand the format, but that's OK
22:56:33 <ais523> I was asking for someone else, and they found Microsoft's docs on the subject
22:56:39 <ais523> they are apparently writing their own dynamic loader (?)
22:56:47 <fizzie> I think it's kind of weird that one of these relocation entries is of type "MIPS_JMPADDR16".
22:57:09 -!- Sandra has joined.
22:57:36 <fizzie> Most of them are ABSOLUTE or HIGHLOW, but then there's that one and a "HIGH3ADJ".
22:58:26 <zzo38> I don't know Spanish speeching/writing so well, sorry
22:59:03 <Sandra> I speak spanih and you?
22:59:24 <b_jonas> writing their own dynamic loader? are they a libc implementor?
22:59:47 <zzo38> I am fine but did you read the instruction of this IRC channel? Some people go on by mistake by seeming to think it is the Spanish IRC, even though it is not
22:59:52 <Sandra> b_jonas: I speak spanish and you?
23:00:08 <ais523> I think that's how you spell it?
23:00:17 <HackEgo> bienvenudo Sandra? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:00:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenudo: not found
23:00:41 <ais523> what's the point in having a Spanish welcome command if you have to be Spanish to remember how to spell it
23:01:15 <HackEgo> Sandra: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
23:01:33 <shachaf> I'm not Spanish and I remember how to spell it.
23:01:55 <b_jonas> ais523: that doesn't add the nick but it gives the message
23:02:07 <shachaf> Learning spelling in English is just memorization anyway.
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23:05:27 <ais523> that's an interesting rDNS
23:05:36 <ais523> is that the default rDNS you get if there isn't another one available?
23:08:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46561&oldid=46553 * Staticsn0w * (+65) /* Features */
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23:12:34 <lambdabot> fizzie said 6h 27m 55s ago: And, what, retry until everything's balanced?
23:13:56 <oerjan> how does the perl version work, anyway? how does it prevent you ending up in a cul-de-sac of the FSA with no )s in
23:16:36 <oerjan> oh and what if the corpus has unbalanced ()s
23:16:45 -!- Sandra has joined.
23:17:03 <oerjan> if it doesn't, then i can see how you might keep track of which states allow rebalancing, and avoid cul-de-sacs
23:19:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46562&oldid=46561 * Staticsn0w * (+63)
23:19:08 <oerjan> basically, for each state calculate the maximal number of )s that can follow (possibly infinite)
23:19:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46563&oldid=46562 * Staticsn0w * (+10) /* Filetypes */
23:21:28 <oerjan> now if you wanted to balance several sorts of brackets, nested...
23:24:24 <oerjan> you'd end up with a PDA. i think it would involve... what's the name...
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23:36:52 <oerjan> the best i can find is left/right quotient, which seems not quite right.
23:38:58 <oerjan> or wait, maybe it _is_ right quotient if you ...dammit, now i've forgotten _that_ word too
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23:40:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46564&oldid=46563 * Staticsn0w * (-207) /* Hello world! */
23:41:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46565&oldid=46564 * Staticsn0w * (-6) /* Filetypes */
23:41:13 <oerjan> i suppose this is a special case of intersecting a context-free language with a regular one.
23:42:31 <oerjan> @tell fizzie see monologue started 15 mins after you idled hth
23:44:38 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> AlphaGo (Google's Go AI) is taking on the world champion starting tomorrow <-- today's iwc annotation seems relevant.
23:45:07 <shachaf> oerjan: do you mean alphabet's go ai hth
23:45:14 -!- boily has joined.
23:45:14 <shachaf> shachaf: do you mean Taneb hth
23:48:33 <boily> hellochaf. do you mean Taneb Taneb hth?
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23:54:44 <vanila> http://cyclopslang.org/
23:59:41 <Yurume> the final score for Lee Sedol v. AlphaGo would be 1-0, AlphaGo pisses off after the first loss and will go destroy everything