00:03:15 <vanila> I don't know what kitten is
00:03:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:19:37 -!- boily has joined.
00:22:22 <HackEgo> int-e/int-e är inte svensk.
00:23:36 <oerjan> `le/rn wat/Angkor Wat is a famous temple complex in Cambodia.
00:24:27 <oerjan> `learn_append wat It is the largest religious monument in the world.
00:24:29 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye).
00:24:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'wat': Angkor Wat is a famous temple complex in Cambodia. It is the largest religious monument in the world.
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00:33:07 <HackEgo> 112) <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple
00:34:11 <lambdabot> While you're chewing, think of STEVEN SPIELBERG'S bank account ... his
00:34:11 <lambdabot> will have the same effect as two "STARCH BLOCKERS"!
00:36:46 <oerjan> <int-e> No. I was wondering whether the Alphago team had somehow solved this problem... now I know they didn't. <-- . o O ( do human brains have horizon effects )
00:37:25 <int-e> (was that an instance... I hope not...)
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00:39:50 <int-e> oerjan: do you recall enough of ghc's #8827 to have an idea how safe or unsafe Data.Coerce is?
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00:40:34 <int-e> vanila: but perhaps you just say that because you didn't think about it deeply enough.
00:41:06 <vanila> there was a very funny video of someone who made a NES AI
00:41:09 <hppavilion[1]> vanila: #esoteric should make something like that.
00:41:18 <vanila> and then when he tried it on tetris it sucked
00:41:28 <vanila> and when it almost lost it just paused the game
00:41:37 <vanila> and kept it paused so that it would never lose
00:41:47 <int-e> that's a brilliant strategy!
00:41:56 <lifthrasiir> there are some safety mechanisms to avoid them but not perfect
00:46:46 <oerjan> int-e: any unsafeness is due to modules defining data types with unexposed constructors that are not meant to be convertible, without considering the role mechanism?
00:47:44 <int-e> oerjan: Looking at https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/SafeRoles I gather that type roles are respected, and hence one cannot break the reprentational aspect of the type system through coerce; at the same time it may still be possible to break abstractions... how bad is that? Can I use `coerce` to convert runST into unsafePerformIO, say? [probably not because of the rank 2 type, but maybe...
00:47:48 <oerjan> so all the discussion is about how far to safeguard against that. there is in any case usually no breach of memory safety, only invariants
00:47:50 <int-e> ...there are other constructs like that...]
00:48:49 <oerjan> int-e: in Unsafe mode you can break abstractions, i don't remember if coerce is supported in Safe mode.
00:49:03 <int-e> (and ST has a nominal type role for its phantom type argument...)
00:49:16 <int-e> oerjan: the module is Unsafe
00:49:31 <int-e> @let import Control.Monad.Free
00:49:33 <lambdabot> The package (profunctors-5.1.1) is required to be trusted but it isn't!
00:50:15 <oerjan> int-e: i'm not talking about the module you're importing, but the one you're defining
00:50:31 <int-e> This is the reason why I'm asking... profunctors' Data.Profunctors.Unsafe module is marked "Trustworthy" and effectively exports `coerce`.
00:50:32 <oerjan> an Unsafe module can use unsafeCoerce, after all.
00:51:12 <int-e> wheras Data.Coerce is Unsafe.
00:51:16 <oerjan> int-e: oh, i'm not clear enough about the current state to say whether that's bad
00:51:17 <vanila> i don't know why people still bother with haskell
00:51:18 <int-e> @let import Data.Coerce
00:51:19 <lambdabot> Data.Coerce: Can't be safely imported!
00:51:53 <oerjan> it is possible that you need Unsafe mode just to _use_ coerce, even if it's imported from somewhere trustworthy
00:52:00 <oerjan> i don't quite remember
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00:52:30 <oerjan> vanila: i barely do now, i don't have ghc on my laptop :P
00:52:45 <int-e> oerjan: "effectively" means I can define coerce' a = (#.) undefined (const a) undefined
00:52:49 <vanila> I think it would be nice to write a new haskell compiler
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00:53:06 <int-e> and it has just the same type as coerce.
00:53:23 <int-e> or perhaps you mean inferring Coercible constraints is restricted
00:53:24 <vanila> What do you al feel about modern haskell?
00:55:43 <int-e> vanila: are you getting at anything in particular, or are you just trolling?
00:56:21 <int-e> I do have complaints about Haskell... but no more than about other programming languages that I use.
00:56:28 <vanila> not interested dude talk to someone else
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00:56:47 <int-e> Ah, trolling it is then. Fine.
00:57:01 <oerjan> <int-e> or perhaps you mean inferring Coercible constraints is restricted <-- yeah
00:58:26 <oerjan> vanila: are you aiming for a ban tdnh
00:58:46 <lambdabot> I don't perform such side effects on command!
01:00:20 <boily> lambdabot: you should use this chännel's traditional weapons.
01:00:34 <lambda-11235> It didn't work? I tested it on myself in a private chat first. Oh well.
01:00:53 <int-e> lambdabot is somewhat random
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01:04:29 <int-e> oerjan: okay, then the puzzle is why Data.Coerce is not marked as Trustworthy...
01:05:36 <int-e> oerjan: (I played around a bit, and yes, it looks that Coercible inference is restricted in SafeHaskell. Thanks for the hint!)
01:07:19 <boily> b_jhellonas. unbalancing parentheses is a crime against humanity.
01:07:22 <fungot> boily: last time i checked elucidatewhy is to become proficient in scheme programming by seeing how i can get it's just what oklopol and bsmntbombdood did have the occasional orgies, though.
01:07:50 <oerjan> int-e: on thinking, i think throwing around trolling accusations shouldn't be done this lightly
01:08:33 <int-e> oerjan: Well, I guess I see why; it's really about giving library authors time to sprinkle `nominal` type constraints in their code where needed (like Data.Map).
01:12:06 <oerjan> int-e: i think the role considerations just haven't converged to a stable state yet.
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01:13:09 <oerjan> also, #8827 isn't implemented yet
01:13:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i assume int-e is reconfiguring things
01:13:35 <oerjan> possibly related to our coerce discussion
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01:14:11 <hppavilion[1]> *not a big mind blow, but still technically a mind blow*
01:14:23 <int-e> (I've decided to trust profunctors for now...)
01:14:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: For some reason, I can never get my mind off the concept of a language called Unilang
01:14:44 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: one of ekmett's many libraries
01:14:58 <oerjan> my memory is a bid vague, i'm not entirely sure whether int-e came here to the channel of his own accord, or whether he tagged along with lambdabot after we nagged to get it here
01:15:19 <int-e> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/profunctors
01:15:30 <oerjan> he may not have been the maintainer back then
01:15:41 <int-e> oerjan: I came here on my own accord the first time... not sure about my return ;)
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01:17:22 <int-e> But it was probably unrelated to lambdabot.
01:18:33 <oerjan> i was going to suggest on/of are both acceptable, sadly stackexchange disagrees with me
01:18:55 <oerjan> but one comment suggests confusion with "on my own account"
01:22:49 <oerjan> <int-e> If it hadn't done this while behind that would also have made me happy. But it takes a really strong player (or some artificial setup; [...] <-- afaiu go has a pretty extensive handicap system, so not _that_ artificial...
01:24:15 * oerjan chuckles evilly at boily
01:25:30 <int-e> oerjan: actually the first time I came here the esolangs mailing list was still functioning; perhaps it mentioned the IRC channel?
01:42:11 <oerjan> eek is easter that soon
01:43:57 <boily> Easter Approaches. The Holy Zombie will Come and Enlighten us All.
01:44:25 <boily> > (61 - 32) * 5 / 9
01:55:56 <int-e> hmm. <int-e> well, your head exploded <Keymaker> yes <int-e> that's a good point to stop reading ;) ... reading old logs is fun :)
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01:59:50 <int-e> `learn Sand is what microprocessors are made of. GregorR invented it.
01:59:59 <HackEgo> Learned 'sand': Sand is what microprocessors are made of. GregorR invented it.
02:00:07 <oerjan> if you don't stop reading when your head explodes, severe side effects may occur.
02:00:48 <int-e> (<GregorR> I wrote my compiler! And I built my processor, mother board, RAM, hard disk etc from sand. <GregorR> Sand that I /invented/!) (context was trust)
02:01:02 <oerjan> Gregor dropped the R eventually, i guess the people revolted against him.
02:01:03 <int-e> trust in software and hardware, that is.
02:02:52 <oerjan> and he had only got cheap deathrayatcost defenses that failed at the worst possible moment
02:05:38 <oerjan> clearly he should have kept to the build everything yourself policy
02:22:41 <EgoBot> \ \ Signal 18 (CONT) caught by ps (procps version 3.2.8). \ Please send bug reports to <feedback@lists.sf.net> or <albert@users.sf.net>
02:22:54 <hppavilion[1]> If anyone wants to experiment a bit with it, I can add a help and join it to #esoteric
02:23:06 <hppavilion[1]> But it doesn't seem to always get the messages I send it
02:23:43 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
02:23:46 <int-e> <int-e> hmm. I'm not doing much esoteric stuff anymore.
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02:27:42 <int-e> oerjan: so yeah, my return in late 2013 is connected to me taking over lambdabot
02:28:07 <int-e> @let import Control.Monad.Free
02:28:23 <int-e> in any case, good night
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02:37:38 <hppavilion[1]> Lilly_Goodman: ¿Tiene algún interés en los lenguajes de programación esotéricos? O la programación en absoluto?
02:37:42 <lambdabot> oerjan said 4m 14s ago: CHICKEN :P
02:39:50 <hppavilion[1]> Lilly_Goodman: Qué lenguajes de programación lo sabes?
02:40:49 <Lilly_Goodman> hppavilion[1]: se el de castellano y me interesa conrespecto a la computadora en si
02:41:34 <hppavilion[1]> Google no se está traduciendo que adecuadamente. ¿Se puede reformular? O corregir los errores tipográficos?
02:42:51 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Would an IRC bot that does category theory be of interest to this channel? Or does lambdabot already serve that function?
02:42:53 <Lilly_Goodman> hppavilion[1]: me puedes decir el hardware, se compone de la unidad central, los periféricos de entrada y salida??
02:43:32 <hppavilion[1]> Lilly_Goodman: No estoy seguro de lo que estás pidiendo
02:44:34 <Lilly_Goodman> una pregunta... el hardware de la computadora, se compone de la unidad central, los periféricos de entrada y salida? responde
02:48:02 <zzo38> shachaf: Could you figure out my puzzle now?
02:48:22 <hppavilion[1]> Lilly_Goodman: Hago la programación de computadoras. La mayoría de nosotros. Pocos de nosotros comprende el metal desnudo, por lo que yo puedo decir.
02:49:00 <shachaf> zzo38: I didn't look at it since yesterday.
02:50:33 <Lilly_Goodman> hppavilion[1]: tengo otra pregunta,,, para introducir cambios en un documento es necesario tipiarlo todo de nuevo? responde
02:50:54 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Would a bot with category theory as a builtin function be of interest to #esoteric? Assuming λbot doesn't already fulfill that function?
02:53:18 <Lilly_Goodman> hppavilion[1]: tengo otra pregunta,,, para introducir cambios en un documento es necesario escribirlo todo de nuevo? responde
02:54:11 <hppavilion[1]> ¿Dónde está este documento? (También, tener en cuenta #esoteric NO es el soporte técnico)
02:54:41 <hppavilion[1]> Sería estúpido si tiene que volver a escribir un documento para hacer un cambio menor
02:55:00 <shachaf> I don't know what such a bot would be.
02:55:20 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: A bot that includes a simple command API for manipulating categories
02:55:28 <Lilly_Goodman> hppavilion[1]: jajajaja es para una tarea y no puedo responder asi
02:56:10 <hppavilion[1]> Lilly_Goodman: Pero ¿dónde está el documento que necesita cambiar? ¿Qué software?
02:57:43 <hppavilion[1]> Lilly_Goodman: Escucha, parece agradable, pero realmente no parece que este es el canal que está buscando. Creo que se debe encontrar en otro lugar que se adapta mejor a lo que usted está tratando de logros como un canal de soporte técnico con el español como idioma principal.
02:58:27 <shachaf> I don't know what that would be like.
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03:00:23 <hppavilion[1]> Por favor. Encontrar un canal que hace de soporte técnico. Este canal no está hecho para responder a sus preguntas de la tecnología, que está aquí para geeks que tienen un lugar para pasar el rato.
03:22:20 <HackEgo> Frenemy is the relationship between Kirby and king Dee Dee.
03:38:51 <zzo38> shachaf: vaporware told me to tell you that it is scow
03:39:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Here's a preliminary approximation of a category theory CMD: http://pastebin.com/GGWvepfX
03:39:36 <zzo38> shachaf: Someone on ifMUD is named "vaporware"
03:39:43 <zzo38> They told me to tell you
03:39:53 <shachaf> zzo38: Aha. I know who that is.
03:40:23 <shachaf> zzo38: Tell vaporware that it's too good.
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03:43:44 <shachaf> http://ifmud.port4000.com:4001/finger?user=vaporware
03:45:00 <shachaf> Posted a link to pastebin.com without using raw.php
03:45:07 <shachaf> http://pastebin.com/raw/GGWvepfX -- so much better
03:45:40 <shachaf> Anyway, I don't think that's a helpful way of thinking about categories.
03:45:48 <shachaf> For the thing that people usually do with them.
03:45:51 <shachaf> But maybe it is. I don't know.
03:46:02 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: That's just the API for building categories, isn't it?
03:46:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: There'll also be ways to build bigger (i.e. infinite) categories, if I do it right
03:46:41 <shachaf> make sure you can build large categories hth
03:49:36 <shachaf> zzo38: Can I talk to vaporware without making an account?
03:51:09 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes; enter "connect guest" when it asks you to login
03:51:19 <zzo38> And then you can type "page vaporware =" and the message
03:52:49 <shachaf> Can I also talk to them in a public place?
03:53:27 <shachaf> Who's Olly? A bot or a human?
03:53:47 <zzo38> You can't use channels if you are a guest
03:53:58 <zzo38> But you can type "lounge" to enter the same location they are in
03:54:09 <zzo38> And then enter text with a quotation mark at first to say stuff
04:02:04 <Lilly_Goodman> donde hay un grupo que se pueda preguntar en español
04:03:45 <zzo38> Lilly_Goodman: Sorry I am not very good Spanish, this channel is for English. (Possibly some people can write/read other language too but mostly is just commonly English, therefore I would expect English writing please.)
04:05:00 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: So how should the interface work for infinite categories? Obviously, you can't add arbitrary morphism
04:05:12 <shachaf> zzo38: Am I making a fool of myself in the lounge?
04:05:33 <zzo38> I don't know, although you are allowed to go into other location too if you prefer
04:05:51 <shachaf> But then how will I know what people are saying in the lounge?
04:05:54 <zzo38> (Including back into the starting location, or into the apartment building)
04:06:25 <zzo38> You can type "@recapchannel lounge" to read it. (If you have an account this can be abbreviated to "@recap lounge")
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04:16:37 <shachaf> zzo38: How do I find out where you are?
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04:17:32 <zzo38> shachaf: You can use the "finger" command; type "finger zzo38" or "finger #20071"
04:18:03 <zzo38> To get to the apartment building from the lounge, go east, and then go south to reach apartment building, and go to the top floor
04:18:12 <shachaf> zzo38: Oh, I can also type "where zzo38".
04:18:13 <zzo38> And then go into the east hall
04:18:22 <zzo38> Yes that works too
04:18:31 <zzo38> (I didn't know that, now I know)
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04:34:10 <zzo38> I can describe workings of ifMUD if you want it
04:35:35 <zzo38> I can also tell you what things to set if you do have account
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04:37:27 <zzo38> The command " to say to the current room, while ; is say to your current channel, : is describe yourself to do something (for example ": does something"), . followed by a name and space and text to whisper, and % followed by a channel name and space and text allows you to type to a specific channel which is not necessarily your current channel.
04:38:48 <shachaf> What's the difference between page and whisper?
04:39:05 <zzo38> If you do have account, then the first few things you might want to do are to use @desc to write a description for yourself (enter "@desc me =" and a description); the description can also contain a JotaCode program if you want, and to use @option to set options.
04:39:39 <zzo38> shachaf: They work similarly. You might use whisper for in-character and page for out-of-character, although nobody really cares about such distinction much.
04:40:38 <zzo38> They also save the messages to different lists so that you can recap one or the other
04:43:18 <zzo38> Also guests cannot use @exec either; registered users can use @exec to execute JotaCode programs and then it will tell you the answer, for example "@exec @mul(6,7)" is a valid program.
04:55:38 <zzo38> Each object has fields and flags. You can view fields of objects someone else programmed only if the "examinable" flag is set on that object, although some fields are private and cannot be seen at all (even by the object's owner!). This includes your current channel, however there is a hack you can use to programmatically access your own current channel (setting yourself examinable will not allow other people's programs to access your current chan
04:58:16 <oerjan> `le/rn sparta/WE. DON'T. KNOW. ANYTHING. ABOUT. SPARTA!
05:01:39 <HackEgo> Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.
05:01:58 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
05:03:55 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: So what's the optimal way to implement categories if the way I tried isn't good?
05:04:10 <hppavilion[1]> Is it to give it a function to tell it whether or not an arrow can occur?
05:08:32 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
05:08:57 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: Are there any good models that don't have a ubiquitous language for them?
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05:22:54 <shachaf> Implement categories for what?
05:23:21 <lambda-11235> hppavilion[1]: For dependently typed languages, representing λΠω on the λ-cube, there is the choice of Agda, Coq, or Idris, without any of them necessarily being the goto language.
05:28:46 <lambda-11235> Looking through Wikipedia, dataflow programming might be one such model, although I'm not very familiar with that paradigm or the languages that implement it.
05:30:04 <hppavilion[1]> CHALLENGE: Haskell with only tuples, lists, and bools
05:31:48 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: What could be done as a type theory that makes absolutely no sense?
05:32:35 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: Wait, but what do you do for tuples?
05:33:05 <lambda-11235> hppavilion[1]: []=0, 1=[[],[]], otherwise they won't be the same type.
05:33:52 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: They just seem like they'd be useful
05:34:46 <lambda-11235> Then why only use tuples, lists, and bools if it should be useful?
05:36:50 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: I'd like to see a way of constructing functions on pure lists out of pure lists
05:38:46 <lambda-11235> hppavilion[1]: What do you mean? f :: [a] -> [a]?
05:44:12 <lambda-11235> As far as what can be done with type theory that is hard to make sense of, check out http://homotopytypetheory.org/.
05:46:27 <lambda-11235> I haven't found interest or time to read it yet, and to be honest I'm only starting to learn type theory.
05:47:27 <lambda-11235> But I know it's a HoTT topic in the type theory community. :)
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06:35:34 <hppavilion[1]> What I really want to do right now is put a new spin on functional programming
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07:08:37 <oerjan> that's not how you work your brain hth
07:10:31 <hppavilion[1]> And thus my brain is even worse at focusing than usual
07:11:40 <hppavilion[1]> I still want to play Nomic, but I can't get anyone to play xD
07:13:32 <oerjan> this latest girl genius arc seems to be a run of chekhov's guns fizzling out
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07:16:10 <oerjan> shachaf: from my coffee shop days, i recall rooibos
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07:17:17 <shachaf> are you past your coffee shop period
07:17:22 <shachaf> what period are you in now twh
07:17:50 <oerjan> right now i seem to be in an italian restaurant period
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07:20:48 <shachaf> oerjan: Is it true that Norwegian pizza is the best in the world?
07:22:02 <zzo38> Foods in Canada are better than others
07:22:18 <zzo38> (Even if it is the same chain of restaurant in a different country)
07:23:14 <oerjan> shachaf: yep. specifically the norwegian pizza made by kurds running italian restaurants.
07:24:04 <hppavilion[1]> I'm setting up nomic over Github. Now to find somebody to play
07:24:39 <shachaf> I would play if it used VoIP, except that I have no mic.
07:25:08 <hppavilion[1]> Is that just basically skype for classical hackers?
07:25:48 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, I heard the chains are the best.
07:25:53 <shachaf> Like Peppes and the other one.
07:26:29 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know why, but in my experience, it is.
07:26:42 <shachaf> zzo38: Which other countries have you tried?
07:29:34 <zzo38> Also some stuff imported from England
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07:30:02 <zzo38> I forget which states, but I think the ones near British Columbia
07:34:35 <hppavilion[1]> How about singleton nomic? Nomic where the entire game must be governed by a single overly-complicated rule
07:35:21 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Well, my nomic doesn't have VoIP unfortunately
07:35:31 <shachaf> i just wanted to make a pun hth
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08:04:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.9775
08:05:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.23629
08:09:39 <zzo38> Many of them are out of context, whether it is me or someone else who wrote it.
08:21:27 <zzo38> I use the same IRC client that I had before, except now it is Linux because my old computer broke (I believe the CPU failed)
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08:26:00 <shachaf> zzo38: Why do you disallow * in your robots.txt?
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08:27:30 <zzo38> shachaf: Because I want to.
08:28:04 <zzo38> If you want to make backup of a few files that is OK though, but don't do too much please
08:28:19 <shachaf> I wanted to search the website with Google.
08:29:44 <zzo38> Well, use a different program.
08:31:14 <zzo38> What exactly are you looking for?
08:31:21 <zzo38> Maybe I know what file it is that you would need
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08:36:04 <zzo38> If you want to make your backups public that is OK too, whether the files are modified or unmodified, but please do not mark the modified files as exact copies of the original.
08:36:22 <shachaf> How do you mark files as exact copies?
08:38:00 <zzo38> That is up to you I suppose; a magnet URI might be one way I suppose
08:41:21 <shachaf> zzo38: whoa whoa whoa, http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/zzo38_quote.txt
08:41:35 <shachaf> zzo38: In this case I think I was looking for the Magic: The Gathering PHP file.
08:41:39 <shachaf> But I could probably find it another way.
08:41:48 <shachaf> But I was hoping to look for all sorts of things.
08:42:08 <zzo38> Is this what you want? http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php
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08:44:12 <shachaf> You should add a /sitemap.xml file
08:44:15 <zzo38> Bookmark it if you do not want to lose it, that would always be the way anyways
08:44:50 <shachaf> That doesn't work because sometimes I use a different computer.
08:44:51 <zzo38> I also think XML isn't very good for stuff other than text document markups anyways
08:45:08 <shachaf> How about a regular index.html file that lists different parts of the website?
08:45:53 <zzo38> No I don't need such thing the different part don't even go together, there is just various stuff on the server
08:46:29 <shachaf> Just to help people find things.
08:46:40 <shachaf> What all the parts have in common is that you made them.
08:46:55 <zzo38> Actually it doesn't. Some files come from elsewhere
08:47:30 <shachaf> Well, you can leave those out.
08:48:33 <zzo38> Even not everything I have written may necessarily even be on my server since it may be something else, and in other cases also the protocol might be different too; there is too many possibilities
08:49:54 <shachaf> Well, all the things on the server available via HTTP are available via HTTP from that server.
08:50:02 <shachaf> That's what they have in common.
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08:50:58 <zzo38> No even that is not true, some things are available via HTTP from other server
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11:15:25 <int-e> hmm, how would one find a sub-TC language that has an undecidable halting problem?
11:21:17 <int-e> I should ask that when ais523 is here
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12:41:44 <izabera> is go also played on tori?
12:42:15 <int-e> I'd say, not really.
12:43:10 <int-e> The borders have a huge effect on how people think about go; you'd get a completely different game on a torus.
12:44:32 <int-e> (the borders have a huge effect on tactics; they also naturally delimit territory, so building territory in corners and sides is easier than in the middle of the board...
12:44:47 <int-e> All this is part of what makes go go.
12:45:11 <izabera> and it'd be weird to tell if you're surrounding or being surrounded i guess
12:45:17 <int-e> (you may read that last word as a verb or as the noun denoting the game... both interpretations work for me)
12:45:59 <int-e> that said, of course toroidal go has been considered...
12:46:38 <int-e> http://senseis.xmp.net/?Variants#toc8 lists "torogo" for example.
12:47:43 <int-e> they might even have a small community. *shrugs*
12:51:03 <Taneb> Is Go ever played on a Klein bottle
12:52:08 <Taneb> I should know, apparently I invented it
13:03:33 <b_jonas> shachaf: I store most of my public bookmarks on a set of public HTML pages, that was I can access them from anywhere. The list is quite disorganized and lots of things are missing, but it's still much better than nothing.
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13:20:30 <FreeFull> int-e: What about toroidal chess?
13:25:42 <int-e> http://www.chessvariants.com/shape.dir/torus_standard_board.html ... but it still knows about ranks (search for "promotion")
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14:09:21 <b_jonas> `slashlearn ladder jump/Ladder jump is the phenomenon that in practically all platformer games where the player character can climb up on ladders, it's faster to repeatedly jump and grab the ladder than to climb.
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17:12:05 <shachaf> predictions on olist today?
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17:16:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: why would it have to be today?
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17:18:19 <b_jonas> shachaf: just because the FAQ still says both “Monday/Wednesday/Friday” (in a question title) and “Monday/Thursday” in the TOC?
17:20:33 <HackEgo> Vaarsuvius is female. The Word of God about that is right at http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10 , right above where he tells the comic updates three times a week.
17:20:59 <b_jonas> `learn Vaarsuvius is female. The Word of God about that is right at http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10 , right above where he tells the comic updates three times a week (twice a week according to the TOC).
17:21:04 <HackEgo> Relearned 'vaarsuviu': Vaarsuvius is female. The Word of God about that is right at http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10 , right above where he tells the comic updates three times a week (twice a week according to the TOC).
17:22:14 <shachaf> b_jonas: I don't know, can you check the times of past olists?
17:22:27 <shachaf> b_jonas: Anyway the main prediction I was wondering about was "update/no update".
17:22:56 <b_jonas> shachaf: I won't check, sorry
17:24:21 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
17:24:47 <b_jonas> `learn olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
17:24:50 <HackEgo> Relearned 'olist': olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
17:24:53 <vanila> https://gist.github.com/rui314/3b66fe949b5ee3b21120
17:24:54 <vanila> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/shinh/bflisp/master/bflisp.bf
17:25:19 <vanila> it's a c compiler in brainfuck
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17:27:29 <b_jonas> vanila: we have a couple of these subscribable user-triggered update notification thingies, but olist is the only really active one
17:28:21 <vanila> look at the writeup and brainufck code
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17:48:46 <HackEgo> smlist 432: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
17:49:33 <HackEgo> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
17:50:27 <vanila> whys no one interested in the link i posted
17:50:40 <b_jonas> vanila: it's brainfuck. I don't like brainfuck.
17:51:25 <b_jonas> that reminds me, since Bardsworth and Everyday Heroes are updating so rare these days, I should set up update notifications for them
17:51:57 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ o_wbanf \ o_wbanf
17:53:37 <b_jonas> ``` sed -i '$d' bin/aglist
17:53:44 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ o_wbanf
17:54:10 <b_jonas> `learn aglist aglist is update notification for the Abstruse Goose webcomic. http://abstrusegoose.com/
17:54:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'aglist': aglist aglist is update notification for the Abstruse Goose webcomic. http://abstrusegoose.com/
17:54:29 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ Ftrb \ dhvagbcvn \ vba \ o_wbanf
17:54:49 <b_jonas> `learn aglist is update notification for the Abstruse Goose webcomic. http://abstrusegoose.com/
17:54:52 <HackEgo> Relearned 'aglist': aglist is update notification for the Abstruse Goose webcomic. http://abstrusegoose.com/
17:55:06 <b_jonas> `learn pbflist is update notification for the Perry Bible Fellowship webcomic. http://pbfcomics.com/
17:55:09 <HackEgo> Learned 'pbflist': pbflist is update notification for the Perry Bible Fellowship webcomic. http://pbfcomics.com/
17:59:21 <vanila> i want esoteric programming language discussion
17:59:40 <shachaf> `echo shachaf >> bin/aglist
17:59:52 <shachaf> `` echo shachaf >> bin/aglist
18:03:04 <HackEgo> bin/FireFlist bin/aglist bin/danddreclist bin/don'taskdon'ttelllist bin/dontaskdonttelllist bin/emptylist bin/erflist bin/flist bin/list bin/listlist bin/llist bin/makelist bin/mlist bin/olist bin/pbflist bin/slist bin/smlist bin/testlist bin/wrlist
18:03:50 <b_jonas> ``` echo b_jonas >> bin/ehlist
18:03:56 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ o_wbanf
18:04:25 <b_jonas> `learn ehlist is update notification for the Everyday Heroes webcomic. http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/
18:04:28 <HackEgo> Learned 'ehlist': ehlist is update notification for the Everyday Heroes webcomic. http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/
18:04:46 <b_jonas> ok, now what should I call the Bardsworth one? barlist, balist, bwlist?
18:07:21 <b_jonas> oh right, I know what wrlist is
18:07:26 <b_jonas> that one will probably never be active
18:07:46 <shachaf> b_jonas: you should `list hth
18:08:27 <b_jonas> ``` echo b_jonas > bardsworthlist
18:08:44 <b_jonas> ``` echo b_jonas > bin/bardsworthlist
18:08:59 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
18:09:00 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `bardsworthlist': No such file or directory
18:09:16 <b_jonas> `learn bardsworthlist is update notification for the Bardsworth webcomic. http://www.bardsworth.com/
18:09:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'bardsworthlist': bardsworthlist is update notification for the Bardsworth webcomic. http://www.bardsworth.com/
18:09:29 <b_jonas> ``` rot13 < bin/bardsworthlist
18:09:57 <b_jonas> ``` makelist bardsworthlist && echo b_jonas >> bin/bardsworthlist
18:10:01 <b_jonas> ``` rot13 < bin/bardsworthlist
18:10:02 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ o_wbanf
18:12:24 <b_jonas> can we create stuff like this for non-webcomic stuff too?
18:13:27 <myname> what is this "non-webcomic stuff"?
18:13:38 <myname> there cannot possibly be such a thing
18:13:56 <shachaf> There should be a list for new messages in #esoteric.
18:14:26 <b_jonas> ``` makelist ioccclist && cat b_jonas > bin/ioccclist
18:14:28 <HackEgo> cat: b_jonas: No such file or directory
18:15:40 <b_jonas> `learn ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news
18:15:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'ioccclist': ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news
18:16:14 <shachaf> `` echo -e 'shift\nfor n in "$@"; do echo "$n" > bin/"$1"; done' >> bin/makelist
18:16:32 <shachaf> that completely doesn't work tdnh
18:16:43 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
18:17:53 <shachaf> `mkx bin/makelist//file="bin/$1"; shift; cp bin/emptylist "$file"; for n in "$@"; do echo "$n" >> "$file"; done
18:18:51 <shachaf> Maybe lists should print usage information when run with no arguments.
18:18:56 <shachaf> Then they can be self-contained.
18:19:44 <HackEgo> ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news
18:20:05 <b_jonas> ``` makelist ioccclist && echo b_jonas > bin/ioccclist
18:20:18 <b_jonas> ``` makelist ioccclist && echo b_jonas >> bin/ioccclist
18:20:41 <b_jonas> we need a subscribe command (which also figures out your nickname, which needs a HackEgo infrastructure update)
18:20:55 <shachaf> b_jonas: whoa whoa whoa, I just fixed makelist
18:20:56 <vanila> maybe you could stop the bot spamming
18:21:12 <shachaf> b_jonas: You can `` makelist listname user1 user2
18:21:16 <HackEgo> bash: ioccclist: No such file or directory
18:21:24 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ o_wbanf
18:21:35 <b_jonas> shachaf: I see. but you still need a way for people to subscribe later
18:21:52 <b_jonas> (maybe change the list template so that `foolist subscribe would subscribe you)
18:22:02 <shachaf> But then how do you subscribe someone else?
18:22:26 <b_jonas> (no wait, don't do that, that would be a bad interface, for you could accidentally trigger the list too easly)
18:22:33 <b_jonas> (it needs to be a separate top-level command)
18:22:51 <shachaf> Maybe you should have to confirm when you trigger the list.
18:22:51 <b_jonas> shachaf: extra argument probably. like `subscribe foolist versus `subscribe foolist shachaf
18:23:27 <b_jonas> shachaf: or just make it check the actual webpage source and remember the number of the last strip and trigger only if it's updated since
18:23:39 <shachaf> There's no Internet connection.
18:23:46 <shachaf> And some lists don't have numbers.
18:24:21 <shachaf> But for lists that do have numbers, you can require a number, and even not alert if someone else has listed that number before.
18:24:47 <b_jonas> ``` elinks -dump http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/verst
18:24:47 <HackEgo> bash: elinks: command not found
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18:25:31 <b_jonas> ``` curl http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/verst | sed -n '/^Alf/,$p'
18:25:32 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ curl: (52) Empty reply from server
18:26:14 <lambda-11235> Is it possible to have HackEgo delete the root fs?
18:26:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, maybe, but I still recommend not using the foolist subscribe syntax
18:31:25 <zzo38> In the case of danddreclist at least, my own convention is that I post messages having a specific syntax in order to notify
18:32:09 <zzo38> The message happens to be a HackEgo command so that other people can program it to emit names or to do whatever other stuff they might want
18:32:12 <shachaf> I haven't read any danddreclist updates ina long time.
18:32:52 <zzo38> They are also all logged in the public IRC logs, so searching there also make it possible to find the date/time
18:34:09 <shachaf> But sometimes the IRC logging bot stops working.
18:34:47 <zzo38> Yes although there are two
18:34:57 <shachaf> Yes, but they might both stop working at the same time.
18:36:38 <zzo38> That is possible yes.
18:37:04 <zzo38> At least it can be known by checking if any numbers are skipped.
18:37:29 <b_jonas> well, these update notification lists are opportunistic anyway. you should periodically check the original sources where the webcomics appear, rather than just rely on the irc messages.
18:40:17 <b_jonas> should we have an xkcdwhatiflist?
18:40:33 <shachaf> Lists are only useful with more than one subscriber.
18:41:35 <b_jonas> maybe, but creating one is the best way to find out who wants to subscribe
18:41:39 <zzo38> I think it can be useful even if the command does not exist, although then the command can later be added if someone want to.
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18:41:51 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes and that is part of it too
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18:42:17 <b_jonas> shachaf: I mean, you just brought aglist to have more than one member
18:43:20 <b_jonas> I won't create an xkcdwhatiflist now though.
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18:54:37 <b_jonas> ``` makelist keenlist b_jonas && learn 'keenlist is notification for when Tom Hall finally acquires the necessary intellectual property rights to create the videogame series Commander Keen: The Universe is Toast'
18:54:40 <HackEgo> Learned 'keenlist': keenlist is notification for when Tom Hall finally acquires the necessary intellectual property rights to create the videogame series Commander Keen: The Universe is Toast
18:54:46 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ o_wbanf
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18:57:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Afukada * New user account
18:57:34 <b_jonas> Should we have a listlist as update notification for when a new list is created, and make makelist automatically trigger it?
18:59:28 <b_jonas> Or a listlistlist that announces whenever listlist gets implemented
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19:46:05 <b_jonas> At the bottom and in the comments, http://qntm.org/spells refers to a supposed esolang named Hoon. Does anyone have information about this language other than what's directly on that page? I couldn't load the links given there.
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19:52:11 <b_jonas> aha, https://github.com/cgyarvin/urbit/blob/master/doc/book/0-intro.markdown has information about it
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19:55:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46593&oldid=40989 * B jonas * (+106)
20:05:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46594&oldid=46593 * B jonas * (+208)
20:06:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hoon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46595 * B jonas * (+310) Created page with "'''Hoon''' is a dynamically typed esoteric functional programming language. It compiles to a small lower level dynamically typed functional esoteric language called [[Nock]]...."
20:07:12 <lynn> Can't believe there was no Hoon page yet
20:07:28 <lynn> I know a bit about it, b_jonas!
20:07:37 <b_jonas> wait wait, there's a newer webpage
20:07:47 <b_jonas> the one I linked to says it's moved to https://github.com/urbit/urbit
20:07:58 <lynn> http://urbit.org/docs/dev/hoon/ is up-to-date
20:09:03 <b_jonas> lynn: supposedly. I just get some nonsense javascript from there. presumably that javascript might mean something in some browsers.
20:09:12 <b_jonas> I'll give links to the github thing instead
20:10:22 <b_jonas> lynn: ps. I hate when people post "I'm surprised nobody has mentioned $foo yet" to a forum thread. If you think there should be a page, just create it.
20:10:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46596&oldid=46594 * B jonas * (+74)
20:10:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46597&oldid=46595 * B jonas * (+93)
20:11:13 <lynn> I rather meant: I was silently assuming there'd be a Hoon page
20:11:30 <b_jonas> vanila: yes, it is dumb, but we're trying to build a comprehensive encyclopedia of esolangs here
20:11:31 <lynn> If I'd known, I would've gladly written a stub about it :)
20:12:48 <b_jonas> maybe it would be better to describe both Nock and Hoon as typeless rather than dynamically typed
20:13:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46598&oldid=46597 * B jonas * (-18)
20:13:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46599&oldid=46596 * B jonas * (-18)
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20:13:36 <lynn> Nock is definitely typeless; Hoon sort of is, depending on how you look at it
20:17:23 <b_jonas> feel free to edit the pages. the newer github repo has some more docs, but I'm not going to read them and try to understand them.
20:19:03 <lynn> yes, it's really hard to make sense of em :<
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20:29:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46600&oldid=46598 * B jonas * (+54)
20:30:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46601&oldid=46592 * B jonas * (+22)
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20:51:22 <HackEgo> atrix/Atrix is a brand of hand cream. Not to be confused with atriq.
20:53:29 <int-e> `culpritz wisdom/atrix
20:53:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culpritz: not found
20:53:32 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/atrix
20:53:52 <int-e> @google how to erase lines from IRC backlog
20:53:55 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 oerjan
21:00:38 <boily> int-ello. you can't erase. all lines are permanent. the Internet's Ink is indelible.
21:06:52 <int-e> @google how to turn the Sun into a supernova
21:06:54 <lambdabot> http://www.universetoday.com/107791/will-the-sun-explode/
21:06:54 <lambdabot> Title: Will The Sun Explode? - Universe Today
21:08:49 <boily> I can't allow that, int-e.
21:09:15 <int-e> well how are you going to stop me?
21:10:03 <boily> I will find you, and I will mapole you.
21:10:26 <boily> (unless you sunexplode before I get to that.)
21:11:03 <int-e> sounds like a challenge
21:13:48 <shachaf> int-e: you aren't going to escape the long mapole of the law
21:13:57 <int-e> pity that page says it's likely not going to work, not even with the added energy of a mapole.
21:14:01 <boily> `learn_append int-e Det kommer att explodera solen.
21:14:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'int-e': int-e är inte svensk. Det kommer att explodera solen.
21:14:21 <boily> olsner: hellolsner. do you validate the Swedish used there?
21:14:51 <shachaf> Heute die Welt, Morgens das Sonnensystem!
21:15:23 <boily> . o O ( shachaf said something. there must be a pun somewhere, but I can't see any... )
21:16:21 <int-e> boily: it's misdirection.
21:16:32 <olsner> boily: sounds a bit off. "it will explode the sun"?
21:16:45 <int-e> shachaf: ITYM "Morgen". ("Morgens" means "in the morning")
21:17:17 <boily> olsner: I was trying to make it translate "he" or "she", but Google Translate was stuck on "it" for whatever reason.
21:17:22 <int-e> or "morgen" actually
21:17:32 <shachaf> int-e: Probably. The first Google result was http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TodayXTomorrowTheWorld which misled me.
21:17:50 <olsner> Morgens die Welt, Nachmittags das Sonnensystem?
21:18:20 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
21:19:07 <olsner> boily: Hen kommer att spränga solen. (that's e, he/she would be han/hon)
21:23:26 <boily> `le/rn int-e/int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen.
21:23:47 <boily> what's the difference between spränga and explodera?
21:25:16 <olsner> same meaning really, but the wrong/right one is in/transitive
21:25:32 <olsner> I can never remember which of those words means which kind of verb :)
21:25:51 <int-e> if it's the same as in german, things can explode, but you can't explode them; you'd blow them up.
21:25:52 <boily> transitive has a direct object; intransitive can't have one hth
21:26:18 <int-e> or detonate them, that's better
21:26:19 <olsner> so, yeah, explodera doesn't take an object
21:26:41 <boily> make them go FOOF!
21:27:02 <int-e> German has "sprengen".
21:34:16 <int-e> sunsplosions are purdy
21:37:52 <int-e> `learn scream = icecream - eye
21:37:54 <HackEgo> Learned 'scream': scream = icecream - eye
21:38:21 <int-e> that doesn't work, right...
21:38:22 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
21:39:32 <HackEgo> cat: cana: No such file or directory
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21:45:21 <int-e> `stat wisdom/canary
21:45:21 <HackEgo> File: `wisdom/canary' -> `../canary' \ Size: 9 Blocks: 0 IO Block: 1024 symbolic link \ Device: 12h/18dInode: 1054017 Links: 1 \ Access: (0777/lrwxrwxrwx) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2016-03-14 17:20:28.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2015-12-09 04:13:17.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2015-12-09 04:
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22:11:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46602&oldid=46601 * Erinius * (+12) /* L */
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22:40:15 <b_jonas> `learn A dowry is a pribe paid for a brice, or maybe a bribe paid for a pride.
22:40:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'dowry': A dowry is a pribe paid for a brice, or maybe a bribe paid for a pride.
22:47:58 <int-e> it could be a bribe paid for a price; that would actually make sense
22:48:24 <b_jonas> int-e: no, it's a price paid for a bride
22:49:20 <int-e> but you had "pribe paid for a brice" and I just swapped two letters.
22:49:41 <int-e> (I'm not sure where you placed the "d")
22:51:01 <int-e> anyway I'm afraid we're miscommunicating again
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