00:00:04 <rdococ> I tried making a Sonic game in it but it was too slow
00:00:18 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: They're "markov sequences" all right, though it's not quite the most common implementation, where you have a bunch of text and then jump around; instead, it's just generating word by word from a variable-length n-gram model trained with https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN and stored in a I-think-it's-nifty-but-for-some-reason-haven't-much-seen-it-around data structure that I call ...
00:00:22 <rdococ> but it was called Quite Basic
00:00:24 <fizzie> ... a reverse-context tree for lack of a better name.
00:00:26 <fizzie> It's like a word trie except so that if your model has, say, information about the contexts "baz bar foo", "quux bar foo" and "zuul foo", the trie has the form (foo (bar (baz [..]) (quux [..])) (zuul [...])).
00:00:29 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: this is of course inspired by "halt and catch fire", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Catch_Fire
00:00:30 <fizzie> The idea being that it's easy to synthesize from -- you just descend the tree while reading backwards from the end of the text you've generated so far, and once you no longer find a leaf for the "next" (previous) word, you've arrived at the longest prefix in the variKN model, and can read its list of frequencies for following words.
00:00:35 <fizzie> (For extra credit, also account for backoff weights by having a probability for going back up one level.)
00:01:39 <rdococ> If I had to choose a few esoteric assembly instructions, they would be, um
00:01:48 <fizzie> For some reason most things dealing with n-gram models I've seen have tended to put things in a trie, yes, but the "right way around". Which I guess is just fine for a fixed-length model, but much less convenient for a variable-length one.
00:02:10 <rdococ> I'm in the mood to talk about numbers right now
00:03:13 <fizzie> And I had a lot of fun writing the Funge code. It's a language that's generally much easier to write than read.
00:03:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:03:57 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Something that randomly chooses a register, and start executing the instruction at the specified address. An instruction that moves memory from a specified location to a random location somewhere else. An instruction that reads the specified memory address, and multiplies it by a random prime number. Other useless things.
00:04:44 <rdococ> we can take any condition and turn it into a number...
00:04:59 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Why not?
00:05:12 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Because @ isn't based on squaring, it's based on absing
00:06:05 <rdococ> now I want to invent one
00:06:19 <HackEgo> @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
00:06:19 <shachaf> p. sure it wasn't Sgeo__ who invented @
00:06:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Just don't make it absy, make it something new
00:06:34 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|@| = -1
00:06:45 <rdococ> but that means $ = 1...
00:07:18 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It has to behave reasonably like a number, but not quite, or else it's no fun
00:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You can do the reverse of @'s creation process to
00:08:05 * zgrep still doesn't see why |
00:08:09 * zgrep still doesn't see why |-@| = 1... :(
00:08:44 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Because |n*@| = -n, -@ = -1*a, and -(-1) = 1
00:09:22 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:09:48 <boily> explore quaternions.
00:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: @ was made by taking an unsatisfiable expression and making a new number that satisfies it. The reverse is taking an expression with no solution and making a solution
00:10:06 <rdococ> should I do the inverse/
00:10:22 <rdococ> what's the notta constant?
00:11:03 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: |n*@| = -n, so |@*@| = -@... What'd I do wrong? :P
00:11:45 <rdococ> so I will make up an unsatisfiable expression
00:11:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You can also invent completely baffling things that look like numbers at first, but aren't quite
00:12:18 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's like the bigns, AKA the reals. I'll leave you to extrapolate.
00:12:43 <rdococ> plus, negative and trign?
00:12:47 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, or more accurately, 2 new signs that replace -
00:12:57 <rdococ> what are those signs called?
00:13:41 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: |n|^2 ≠ |n^2|, right?
00:13:46 -!- yorick has joined.
00:13:55 <rdococ> my new number would be %, and 0^% = 1
00:14:05 <zgrep> rdococ: Isn't that 0?
00:14:17 <rdococ> hppa: isn't that another infinity?
00:14:41 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Oh, heh. Good point.
00:14:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Though I have a nagging feeling that it's related to η
00:15:42 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You should probably give it a less mathematical name
00:16:05 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:16:08 <rdococ> I was originally going for $ but way too mathy
00:16:50 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: |n^2| ≠ |n|^2 if you've got an @ somewhere in there.
00:17:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The simplest solution is x^ry = y(x+1) = xy+y, but that's a bit strange
00:17:37 -!- tromp has joined.
00:17:44 <rdococ> how'd you get that solution?
00:18:01 <zgrep> |@^2| = |@*@| = -@, but |@|^2 = 1. So |n^2| ≠ |n|^2, right?
00:18:10 <rdococ> you moved the y down like I moved the x down when I was doing 0^rx
00:18:27 <rdococ> it's interesting though
00:18:43 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's not very good (too functional, not numbery enough), but it's the best I can think of
00:19:01 <rdococ> let's think of a different simpler one then
00:20:31 <zgrep> In fact, |ab| ≠ |a|*|b| when @'s involved.
00:21:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I guess we shouldn't use ≠, we should use !<=
00:21:50 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:21:50 <rdococ> looks like an infinitesimal
00:22:38 <HackEgo> [U+1D13 LATIN SMALL LETTER SIDEWAYS O WITH STROKE]
00:23:12 <rdococ> but flipped horizontally
00:24:26 <rdococ> what about xξ and yξ for different x and y?
00:25:17 <rdococ> well, 3 > 2 and 2 < 3, and 3 = 3
00:25:29 <rdococ> does ξ = ξ + x for any particular x?
00:26:46 <zgrep> What is ξ, in this case?
00:27:05 <zgrep> Ahah. So then ξ < ξ as well.
00:27:19 <rdococ> nope, that rule was broken
00:27:58 <rdococ> so does x < ξ for any x?
00:28:13 <zgrep> But if ξ > ξ... why isn't ξ < ξ?
00:28:26 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: This is me asking you.
00:28:27 <rdococ> my original idea was just ξ =/= ξ
00:29:09 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: rdococ: x : x≰x
00:29:37 <rdococ> but ξ > ξwas also yours
00:30:09 -!- tromp has joined.
00:30:19 -!- J_Arcane has joined.
00:31:06 <zgrep> |@*@*@| = -@*@... ||@*@*@|| = @, then?
00:31:23 <zgrep> Where that's [[@*@*@]] not, []@*@*@[]. :P
00:32:28 <zgrep> No, I don't want to vote more.
00:33:35 <zgrep> @|@| = -@... and |@*@| = -@... uh... :/
00:33:36 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "..."
00:34:19 <rdococ> Ω > n for any finite n, but Ω < infinity? so Ω is the largest finite number
00:34:42 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:35:15 <boily> so the lambdie answers to most about anything, except @. very peculiar.
00:35:36 <zgrep> boily: I'm assuming that @'s the prefix, whatever comes after that's considered the command. But just @ is ignored.
00:36:10 <lambdabot> <no location info>: not an expression: ‘’
00:36:21 <zgrep> Huh. "@ " doesn't trigger, but "> " does.
00:37:25 <zgrep> rdococ: Becomes weird, because then Ω = x^-2
00:37:42 <zgrep> Though I guess it wouldn't be number, just an operation.
00:38:05 * zgrep has no clue what zgrep is talking about...
00:39:39 <zgrep> This look simple: -0 [something] n = 0 [something] (-1 * n).
00:39:57 <zgrep> rdococ: I... don't exactly get what that is...
00:40:33 <rdococ> hppa: I was discussing another idea for a number
00:43:09 <zgrep> How how did you get an upside-down omega. o.o
00:43:21 <HackEgo> [U+01B1 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER UPSILON]
00:45:01 <zgrep> Technically, 🐈 could work as a great name too. It would also help annoy others who want to type about it. :P
00:45:04 <rdococ> xΨ + y(1-Ψ) = random probability of being either x or y
00:45:14 <rdococ> what symbol is that? it doesn't showu p on mine
00:45:20 <zgrep> It's a unicode cat.
00:46:03 <rdococ> Ψ = random probability of being either 0 or 1
00:46:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Ψ: Doing any math involving Ψ comes at the expense of your sanity
00:46:19 <rdococ> because it is random and unpredictable
00:46:29 <rdococ> Ψ+1 = random probability of being either 1 or 2
00:46:38 <hppavilion[1]> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
00:47:06 -!- tromp has joined.
00:47:06 <rdococ> doing any math with x comes at the expense of your sanity...
00:47:16 <rdococ> does that mean I have no sanity?
00:47:31 <zgrep> Oh, wait, I cut out too many words. Damn it.
00:48:21 <rdococ> ms/s/with x.*your///s/with x//
00:48:31 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Really? I usually either ignore the first regex I made, fix the resulting string as if the regexes were applied in a row, or I write a regex to fix the regex as a regular regex.
00:49:01 <rdococ> so Ψ = 0, no wait it's 1, 0, 1, 0 wait what is it
00:49:04 <zgrep> A regular regex expression! :P
00:49:05 <coppro> zgrep: new processors for an architecture may support additional features that their predecessors did not in a backwards-incompatible way, but when people make new architectures like ARM, they aren't backwards-compatile with other architectures
00:49:56 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: It doesn't end up calling our evil Microsoft overlords?
00:49:57 <boily> are there irregular expressions?
00:50:14 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Oh, okay. Good.
00:50:23 <hppavilion[1]> boily: alksfdjaoisdf matches "walrus", but not "oerjan"
00:50:39 <zgrep> It does match "oerjans", though.
00:51:19 <zgrep> Though alksfdjaoisde would match all of the above.
00:52:17 <fizzie> You can say "it's not rocket surgery" as an amusing combination of the two idioms, but saying "it's not brain science" works much less well.
00:52:40 <boily> @ask oerjan do you feel matched?
00:53:48 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:54:13 -!- MDude has joined.
00:54:43 <zgrep> fizzie: Between a rock and a pickle? :P
00:55:29 <zgrep> rdococ: Err... yes.
00:56:00 <rdococ> sure, all numbers satisfy that property, but
00:56:12 <rdococ> χ is algebra without algebra
00:56:57 -!- tromp has quit.
00:56:59 <rdococ> hppa: it is meant for substitution
00:57:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Is it a number that satisfies all properties the reals satisfy (and no others), but that isn't a real?
00:57:14 <zgrep> rdococ: You're trying to turn math into C macros? D:
00:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: There's a difference between weird numbers and weird function call syntax
00:59:39 -!- lambda-11235 has joined.
01:01:53 -!- tromp has joined.
01:02:32 <rdococ> should I just google a random function, find a spot where the function doesn't havw a value, and make a spot there?
01:05:24 <zgrep> (although not completely, but almost)
01:05:51 <zgrep> I wonder if it's possible to somehow teach mathematica what @ is...
01:06:53 <zgrep> Expression cannot begin with "Abs[@]=-1". :P
01:07:16 <rdococ> try a different symbol like x
01:08:03 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
01:08:08 <zgrep> I'm wondering, how would I begin to figure out what |@+k| would be...
01:08:28 -!- mihow has joined.
01:09:28 <rdococ> |@+k| = |@| + |k| = -@ + |k|
01:09:37 <zgrep> |a| + |b| ≠ |a + b|
01:10:23 <myname> why is |@| = -@, i thought it'd be -1
01:11:22 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n
01:11:46 <zgrep> `tomfoolery random number
01:11:55 <zgrep> `tomfoolery random
01:12:00 <rdococ> what is |-@|? is it |-1@| = 1?
01:12:03 <zgrep> Eh, I guess that's no longer there.
01:12:17 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
01:12:27 <zgrep> Oh, it worked, just slowly.
01:12:34 <zgrep> `tomfoolery random number
01:13:19 <rdococ> I would assume the k part gets absed
01:13:40 <rdococ> if I had my way, |-@| = -1
01:14:28 <rdococ> Ψ is far more interesting
01:14:37 <rdococ> `tomfoolery random number
01:15:09 <zgrep> `cat tmflry/random number
01:16:50 <myname> that would make @ pretty pointless
01:17:00 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Heheh.
01:17:14 <zgrep> Err... how did you mistype 42 as 19?
01:17:36 <zgrep> "The answer to life, the universe, and everything"? = 42 :P
01:18:43 <zgrep> (?) (+5) (-5) = 42?
01:18:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: When you said "Ψ is far more interesting", what does Ψ equal?
01:19:22 <rdococ> Ψ = a superposition of 0 and 1
01:19:37 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: A superposition? Are you sure it isn't just 0 or 1 at random?
01:19:47 <rdococ> okay it's 0 or 1 at random
01:20:00 <zgrep> |@|*|@| = 1... |@*@| = -@. <-- Why does this have to ruin everything. :(
01:20:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: math : Computer math :: Quantum math : Quantum computer math
01:20:34 -!- jaboja has joined.
01:20:34 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: But it ruins ease of use. :P
01:20:43 <rdococ> zgrep: you made mathematica learn @?!!!
01:20:49 <myname> zgrep: because @ is atupid
01:20:55 <zgrep> I feel welcome here.
01:21:02 <zgrep> myname: It's not tupid? Okay.
01:21:40 <rdococ> hppa: it is xtupid for any x
01:22:57 <myname> the existence of @ would make 1 = -1
01:23:18 <zgrep> "hppa" makes me want to pronounce it "хпавилион". :P
01:23:24 <myname> which makes 2 equal to either 2, -2 or 0
01:23:34 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
01:24:32 -!- mihow has joined.
01:24:51 -!- mihow has quit (Client Quit).
01:25:43 <myname> hppavilion[1]: but 1 = -1 is fine?
01:25:59 <zgrep> myname: I'm assuming that they consider |a|*|b| ≠ |a*b| to be fine.
01:26:44 <myname> zgrep: it will most likely brealk at |@+k| nontheless
01:26:47 <zgrep> Well, for all reals, |a|*|b| = |a*b|, I think.
01:26:59 <zgrep> myname: Well, if k = @, then |@+@| = -2 :P
01:27:11 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Probably something like that.
01:28:10 <myname> that depends on what norm you are using
01:28:11 <hppavilion[1]> Usually, |x| = ||x||, but not when dealing with sgeoids
01:28:21 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Wait, but why is |i| = 1?
01:29:01 <zgrep> @ introduces negative distances... does that simply mean going backwards in time? :P
01:29:05 <myname> because the dostance between i and 0 is i
01:29:29 <rdococ> what about a number j which relates to hyperbolic trig?
01:29:45 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that depends
01:29:46 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:30:24 <myname> |a + bi| = |a| + |b| is as valid as |a + bi| = sqrt(a^2 + b^2)
01:30:34 <myname> both of them are well defined
01:31:35 <rdococ> no, the complex plane is like an x/y plane - the distance from i to 0 is 1
01:31:59 <rdococ> and from 1+i to 0 is sqrt(2)
01:32:36 <myname> as long as it follows some rules, anything is fine really
01:32:58 <rdococ> but those are the rules of the complex system
01:33:18 <myname> like, |x| = 0 => x = 0
01:34:18 <rdococ> but I have the idea of a hyperbolic complex plane where e^jx = sin(x) + icosh(x)
01:41:14 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SELECTION CHICKEN).
01:41:14 <zgrep> |k@| ≠ |k||@|... argh! If only this weren't true, then things with @ would be much easier to think about.
01:41:48 -!- jaboja has joined.
01:42:15 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: True...
01:42:17 <myname> that would break math for k = @
01:42:33 <zgrep> I don't see it breaking math for k = @...
01:42:42 <zgrep> Well, what I wrote, yes. Not what hppavilion[1] wrote.
01:43:44 <rdococ> omg that actually make sense
01:46:04 <zgrep> myname: Exactly. :/
01:47:56 <myname> asume k = @, that would make |@+k| = -2
01:48:20 <myname> k = -@ would make it 0
01:49:26 <myname> k = n@ -> |@+k| = -(n+1)
01:50:24 <myname> k = -n@ -> |@+k| = -n+1
01:51:50 <rdococ> k = n -> |@+k| = -1 - ((n/@)+1)...?
01:52:46 <rdococ> n = @ -> |@+n| = -1 - ((n/@)+1) -> -3...?
01:53:32 <rdococ> k = n@ -> |@+k| = -(n+1)
01:53:33 <myname> k = -(n+2)k -> |@+k| = -(n+2)+1 = -(n+1)
01:54:03 <myname> so |@ + k| = |@ - k + 2|
01:54:09 <rdococ> k = (1/@)@ -> |@+k| = -((1/@)+1)
01:57:22 <\oren\> The enigma machine had a keyboard that was qwertzuio asdfghjk pyxcvbnml
01:59:28 <myname> |x| = |-x| -> |k + @| = |k - 2 - @| -> @ = -2 - @ -> 2@ = -2 -> @ = -1
02:00:20 <myname> how should (a+b)/b = a?
02:00:32 <myname> that would make a + b = a * b
02:01:09 <zgrep> \oren\: Intriguing.
02:02:36 <myname> what are you trying to do
02:02:47 <zgrep> Oh, that's interesting.
02:03:13 <zgrep> |n@|=-n; n=(@+x)/@; |@+x| = -(@+x)/@... huh.
02:04:04 <myname> i don't quite get where these division rules came from
02:04:24 <zgrep> Are you saying I'm assuming @/@ = 1?
02:04:54 <myname> i don't get what made you assume n = (@+x)/@
02:05:51 <zgrep> Who cares, it works?
02:06:06 <zgrep> And it was rdococ that made me assume. :P
02:06:14 <zgrep> It figures out what |@+k| is.
02:06:29 <rdococ> So we want to know |@ + x|.
02:06:38 <rdococ> Let's divide both sides by @. |(1 + x/@)@|
02:06:45 <rdococ> Apply the rule. -(1 + x/@)
02:06:57 <rdococ> Simplify. -1 - x/@ Assuming my knowledge of parentheses are correct.
02:07:15 <zgrep> It works, of coures. :)
02:07:24 <zgrep> Or, wait... does it?
02:08:24 <myname> i am not sure if that somehow breaks my contradiction above
02:08:28 <rdococ> I've known that a + b = (1 + b/a)a for ages now.
02:08:30 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -(@+k)/@
02:09:07 <zgrep> myname: Hm, which contradiction?
02:09:11 <rdococ> a + b = (a/a + b/a)a = (1 + b/a)a
02:09:22 <rdococ> I dunno if it applies to @, but I don't see why otherwise.
02:09:43 <myname> |x| = |-x| -> |k + @| = |k - 2 - @| -> @ = -2 - @ -> 2@ = -2 -> @ = -1
02:09:54 <zgrep> Why does |k + @| = |k - 2 - @|?
02:09:59 <zgrep> Or are we assuming that?
02:10:32 <myname> because |k + @| = |-(k + 2) + @|
02:11:05 <rdococ> |5 + @| = |-7 + @|... nope, does not make sense, unless that's why it's contradictory
02:12:03 <rdococ> |5 + @| = -1 - 5/@, meanwhile |-7 + @| = -1 + 7/@. One's less than -1, and the other's more. That's assuming @ > 0.
02:12:10 <HackEgo> |n@| = -n; |@+k| = -(@+k)/@
02:12:12 <myname> because |k + @| = -(n + 1) for k = n@ and |-(k+2) + @| = -(k+2) + 1
02:12:26 -!- Lyka has left.
02:12:36 <zgrep> Err, no, I'm wrong, sorry.
02:13:11 <zgrep> So the assumption is that k = n@..., then |k + @| = |n@ + @| = |(n+1)@| = -n-1
02:13:50 <rdococ> so wait, |k + @| = -(k/@ + 1), right? that follows what I got, then |-(k+2)+@| = -(k+2) + 1...wait, what?
02:14:17 <zgrep> |5@ + @| ≠ |-7@ + @| because |a@| ≠ |a||@|
02:15:04 <myname> but |-n@ + @| = -n + 1
02:15:14 <rdococ> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@
02:15:29 <HackEgo> |n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@
02:15:35 <rdococ> I didn't get your version so I put my own
02:15:45 <zgrep> |-n@ + @| = |(1-n)@| = n-1
02:16:24 <zgrep> rdococ: Same thing. :P
02:16:54 <zgrep> (that's with regards to |@+k|)
02:20:33 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:21:04 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: H444444444444444XXX11111N444444770000000000R
02:21:08 -!- mihow has joined.
02:23:59 -!- p34k has quit.
02:25:09 <zgrep> I think it'd look nicer if rephrased: |@-k| = k/@ - 1 :P
02:25:15 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: not having guarantees for these things is sensible. thread-terminate! brings nothing but trouble...? or am i screwing something up. b.
02:27:13 <zgrep> So what'd |1/@| be...
02:27:53 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
02:27:56 <myname> for that we have to know what |@^k| is
02:28:36 <myname> well, but we want it nontheless
02:28:43 <zgrep> Inverse isn't exactly the same thing as power, not completely/exactly. As far as I know.
02:29:12 <zgrep> Hm... |@| = -1, |@@| = -@, |@@@| = -@@, etc.
02:29:55 <zgrep> Please put some parens there. :P
02:32:58 <zgrep> Seems like that's it.
02:35:01 <HackEgo> |n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@
02:35:32 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1))
02:38:42 <myname> like, |x^@| could be x^@
02:39:17 <myname> i don't see how thatwould break anything since that exists für even exponents
02:39:43 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:39:56 <myname> |@^@| also is a nice emoticon
02:41:35 <myname> |x@^y| = x|@^y| = -x@^(y-1)?
02:41:53 <zgrep> Do you mean x(@^y) or (x@)^y?
02:45:25 <zgrep> |((k^@)/@)@| = |k^@| = -((k^@)/@)
02:47:33 <myname> is there any way tp make it be 1?
02:48:27 <zgrep> |ab@| = a|b@|, right?
02:50:06 <zgrep> myname: I guess that |@^0| simply isn't 1...
02:51:05 <zgrep> myname: It works out: |@^1| = -(@^0), so @^0 = -|@^1| = -|@| = 1
02:51:33 <zgrep> |@^q| = -(@^(q-1)), q = 1
02:53:32 <myname> but i donjt like how |@^0| != |1|
02:53:42 <zgrep> Let's assume that it is...
02:53:43 <zgrep> But 1 = |1|... and -(@^(-1)) = |@^0|... so -1 = @^(-1)...
02:54:31 <zgrep> That doesn't work, does it?
02:55:22 <zgrep> Because @ ≠ -1, right...
02:55:36 <zgrep> Where did I mess u.
02:55:50 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
02:56:12 <zgrep> myname: No, @^0 seems to be 1... just |@^0| doesn't seem to be 1... :(
02:56:23 <zgrep> ...unless @^0 isn't 1, because @^1 ≠ 1...
02:56:37 <zgrep> How's that fine, though... |1| ≠ 1, then?
02:57:37 <myname> but that may imply @^1 is not @
02:57:42 <HackEgo> I have nothing to tell you.
02:57:42 <HackEgo> |n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1))
02:57:59 <zgrep> |@^1| = -(@^(-2))...
02:59:05 <myname> well, but as you said, |@^1| = -(@^0)
02:59:32 <myname> if @^1 were @, that would mean @^0 is 1
02:59:44 -!- tromp has joined.
03:00:22 <myname> so we either have to define |@^x| somehow else or we have to say that @^0 is not 1 and @^1 is not @
03:00:32 <myname> i don't like the second part, though
03:01:21 <myname> so the exponential rule is wrong
03:01:39 <zgrep> I mean, it works out that @^0 = 1 and @^1 = 1, they work together... but they end up giving @ a wrong value...
03:02:02 <myname> we may do something like ^(sqrt(x)) to work around these sneaky 0 and 1 edge cases
03:04:30 <zgrep> a^b = a*a*a... b times, right? That's the definition we're going with?
03:04:34 <zgrep> Or something else.
03:04:36 <myname> wait, how did your 1/@ worked above
03:05:18 <zgrep> I'm not sure what I did above... I've lost my train(s) of thought.
03:05:45 <zgrep> https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/f/8/7f80d3b6fbe1d4e35eca5022242872bf.png <-- that's the definition we're going with, right?
03:06:01 <myname> -1 = |@| = |@^1| = -(@^0)
03:07:26 <myname> i do think you made an error above but i am quite unsure
03:07:38 <zgrep> I probably made a few errors above.
03:07:42 <zgrep> |@^k| = @^(k-1) * |@|, right?
03:08:10 <zgrep> Simply because of the fact that |a@| = a|@|
03:08:34 <zgrep> So |@^k| = -(@^(k-1))
03:08:52 <zgrep> If @^0 = 1, then 1 = |@^0| = -(@^(-1))...
03:09:34 <rdococ> 1 = -(1/@)... that means 1/@ = -1...???
03:10:18 <rdococ> that's... weird - I heard you talking about it above but never stopped to read
03:10:50 <zgrep> If @^1 = @, then -1 = |@^1| = -(@^0), then 1 = @^0...
03:11:18 <rdococ> @^0 = 1, @^-1 = -1, and @^1 = @.
03:11:18 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
03:11:43 <rdococ> I guess 1/-1 has two solutions now
03:12:21 <zgrep> So how did I show that @ is a number...
03:12:35 <myname> but does this imply it for any division?
03:12:51 <myname> like, is 1/-2 equal to some @ thing?
03:13:19 <zgrep> |@^(-2)| = -(@^(-3))...
03:13:47 <zgrep> |@^-1| = |-1| = 1... so -(@^(-2)) = 1?
03:14:03 <myname> that would make -1 may or may not be @
03:15:24 <zgrep> If @^-2 = -1, then -1*(@^2) = 1, then @^2 = -1... D:
03:15:48 <rdococ> ...then that means sqrt(-1) = @ and @ = i...
03:16:23 <rdococ> indeed, bordering on ridiculous
03:16:31 <rdococ> but interesting enough to keep around
03:16:34 <zgrep> Something weird is going on here with powers... :(
03:17:07 <myname> but that would mean |i| = -1
03:17:27 <myname> rdococ: ot depends on how you calculate
03:17:58 <rdococ> if we assume that @^-1 = -1, then (@^-1)^-1 = -1 too, so @^-2 = -1...
03:18:05 -!- earendel has joined.
03:18:38 <zgrep> I'm going to take a break from @ for now.
03:19:24 <rdococ> I think the problem lies in the absolute value function of x@
03:19:25 <zgrep> What if we just say that |n@| = n|@| instead of -1...
03:19:37 <zgrep> Err, instead of -n.
03:19:49 <rdococ> since f(x) = |x@| doesn't swap slopes at the origin
03:20:18 <rdococ> I mean, |x@| = -x, but |x| = x if x >= 0, and -x otherwise
03:20:23 <rdococ> no such conditional in the @
03:20:24 <myname> rdococ: i don't get ypur (@^-1)^-1 = -1
03:20:33 <zgrep> Something makes me think this is simply a problem of choosing absolute value, something related to distances...
03:21:10 <rdococ> then we complicate things a lot
03:22:19 <myname> we may need to start from stratch
03:22:28 <rdococ> I'm going to make a small adjustment to @'s behaviour, and call the new one ©.
03:23:28 <rdococ> if we try © instead of @, do you think it will turn out with less contradictions?
03:23:30 <earendel> is @ something in particulatr already?
03:23:43 <HackEgo> |n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1))
03:23:47 <rdococ> © is different in that |-©| < 0
03:24:01 <pikhq> Every time I see @ I think ehird. Alas.
03:24:44 <rdococ> |©+k| = -1 - k/©, there's no change there, infact it works with any variable or constant
03:24:46 <myname> rdococ: which is also true for @
03:25:01 <rdococ> but |-©| = -1 where |-@| = 1
03:25:06 <zgrep> |n©| = -|n|... hm...
03:25:53 <rdococ> |©©| = -|©| = 1... interesting, difference already - it almost looks recursive
03:25:56 <myname> but i am way to lazy to type a copyright symbol
03:26:04 <zgrep> |n©| = -|n|, |((©+n)/©)©| = |©+n| = -|((©+n)/©)|
03:26:23 <zgrep> Different n's, sorry.
03:27:01 <myname> we might as well call it @ and remove out old draft
03:27:13 <rdococ> nah, incase © runs into problems too
03:27:20 <zgrep> -|((©+n)/©)| = -|1 + n/©|... I don't see how this is still the same as @?
03:28:07 <myname> not the same, but we basically made all the rules up from a wrong first definition
03:28:25 <myname> we might as well change that definition and start over still calling it @
03:29:07 <zgrep> I don't see how to unwrap it from the absolute value, though, which could be what makes it work, but still...
03:29:15 <zgrep> ...sort-of sad. :(
03:29:15 <rdococ> |© + k| = |(1 + k/©)/©|. Using the rule where |n©| = -|n|, we get -|1 + k/©|
03:29:21 <myname> or choose some symbol that's on an ordinary keyboard
03:30:39 <zgrep> myname: Use the all-mighty compose key! :P
03:30:51 <rdococ> |n©| = -|n|; |© + n| = -|1 + n/©|; |©^n|?
03:30:55 <myname> that's a pain in the ass on a software keyboard
03:31:16 <zgrep> myname: Oh... software keyboard? Those have © somewhere, but yeah, it's annoying to get to usually.
03:31:26 <zgrep> Try clicking and holding on 'c' or 'g'?
03:31:42 <zgrep> Or use c. Or `. Or any symbol, really. :P
03:31:47 <myname> i have it in a seperate menu on ,
03:32:19 <zgrep> |©^n| = -|©^(n-1)| I thknk.
03:32:41 <zgrep> But ∆ is taken for small changes.
03:32:47 <myname> and while we are at it, let's define the ― operation
03:33:13 <rdococ> |©^2| = -|©^1| = |©^0| = 1
03:33:56 <myname> works nice for multiplication
03:34:03 <zgrep> This is a nice symbol for a variable, right: ‰ ? :P
03:34:49 <zgrep> -5 = |5©|... hm...
03:35:11 <rdococ> |©^x| is -1 for an odd number but 1 for an even one... weird
03:35:18 <zgrep> Sort-of bland, though.
03:35:20 <rdococ> |©^0| = 1 works though
03:35:46 <earendel> what's a software keyboard? like onscreen interface?
03:36:04 <myname> pretty normal on smartphones
03:36:12 * zgrep takes a break from this to eat some cake
03:36:18 <zgrep> But |1| = 1, therefore ©© = 1
03:37:28 <rdococ> |©©| = 1, surprisingly
03:37:32 <zgrep> myname: Obviously -© = 1
03:37:46 <zgrep> If trying to find |@©| you get that. :P
03:37:57 <zgrep> But I think that's because we don't have a working @.
03:38:22 <zgrep> © = 1 or i... depending on the context? :P
03:38:42 * zgrep really goes away now
03:38:59 <zgrep> ...I cheated and reversed an absolute value... :P
03:39:05 <rdococ> then |©©| = 1...huh, it is
03:39:36 <zgrep> The only way to win is to cheat...
03:39:55 <rdococ> so you mean 1 = -1 now?
03:40:14 <rdococ> you can't reverse an absolute value, like you did anyway, whether © exists or not
03:42:42 <rdococ> we made a modified version of @ called ©, and |x©| = -|x|...hello?
04:00:01 <zgrep> @tell Sgeo__ @ seems to fail with regards to exponents... at least, it doesn't do too well...
04:00:51 -!- bender| has joined.
04:01:35 <Sgeo__> zgrep, what's going on?
04:03:02 <zgrep> Sgeo__: So exponents, as in |@^k|. If we assume that |n@| = -n, and n = (@^k)/@, then |@^k| = -(@^k)/@ = -(@^(k-1))
04:06:10 <zgrep> |@^1| = -(@^0); @^1 = @ (because of https://goo.gl/XMm8lT); So |@| = -1 = -(@^0); so @^0 = 1, so far so good...
04:07:31 <zgrep> |@^0| = |1| = 1 = -(@^(-1)); so (1/@) = -1. Therefore -@ = 1, and @ = -1... :/
04:08:02 <zgrep> Sgeo__: Which it isn't.
04:08:46 <zgrep> rdococ: Suggested |n©| = -|n|, which seems to do the trick.
04:08:59 <Sgeo__> Where does |n@| = -n come from? Was that my original definiton, or was it |n@| = -|n|? If i remember my most recent proposed definiton for |a+b@| properly, it would be the second, I think
04:09:57 <zgrep> Sgeo__: I don't know what your original definition was, but I know that I first heard of it as |@| = -1.
04:10:15 <zgrep> Sgeo__: What was your most recent definition?
04:11:13 <Sgeo__> |a+b@| = sqrt(a^2 - b^2) if a^2 - b^2 is positive, i*sqrt(a^2 - b^2) if a^2 - b^2 is negative. Or something like that
04:11:37 <zgrep> Eek. More if statements, atop the absolute value... :(
04:12:39 <zgrep> So theoretically I could have |3+4i+5@+6i@|? :D
04:12:53 <Sgeo__> Not sure if my definition extends to cover that
04:13:10 <zgrep> If a and b can be complex, then yes.
04:14:12 <zgrep> |a+b@| = |√(a²+b²)| ?
04:14:26 <zgrep> |a+b@| = √(|a²-b²|) ?
04:15:16 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|a+b@| = √(|a²-b²|)
04:15:33 <zgrep> HackEgo is slower than I last recall...
04:17:25 <zgrep> ...either that, or it's my connection.
04:17:42 <rdococ> So |0+1@| = sqrt(|0 - 1|) = 1???
04:18:40 <zgrep> Hm... or I'm wrong...
04:19:03 <zgrep> i*sqrt(a^2-b^2) = i*sqrt(-1) = i^2 = -1... :/
04:19:42 <zgrep> But i = sqrt(-1) so i*sqrt(a^2-b^2) = sqrt(b^2 - a^2), no?
04:22:06 <rdococ> so @ is a time dimension?
04:22:37 <zgrep> But... I*Sqrt[b] == Sqrt[-b] ???
04:22:54 <zgrep> Why isn't this working, then?
04:23:22 <zgrep> a = 0; b = 1; I*Sqrt[a^2 - b^2] => -1; Sqrt[b^2 - a^2] => 1; :(
04:23:38 <rdococ> but I love the idea of a complex hyperplane that takes place in 2 dimensions of space and 1 of time
04:24:17 <rdococ> Sgeo__: was that your intention? a time dimension?
04:24:45 <zgrep> Well, that's what a negative result from absolute value ends up being.
04:24:54 <zgrep> Though not exactly.
04:25:03 <Sgeo__> My recent definition of |a+b@| was inspired by the time dimension, which I believe could be described with a numvber # such that |#| = i
04:25:49 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|a+b@| = { √(a²-b²) if a²-b² ≥ 0 ; i√(a²-b²) if a²-b² < 0 }
04:26:31 <rdococ> |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²)
04:26:41 <rdococ> three dimensional tau space
04:26:47 <rdococ> tau representing time dimension
04:27:22 <rdococ> |τ| = sqrt(-1) = i, so it fits your definition too
04:27:42 <zgrep> a + bi + cj + dk <-- 3 dimensions + time?
04:28:30 <rdococ> the time dimension is negative
04:28:51 <rdococ> distance is a measure of how hard it is to get to somewhere, so more time allowed, the easier it is
04:29:47 <zgrep> Hm.... hmmmmm.... :D
04:29:57 <rdococ> |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²) if √(a² + b² - c²) >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
04:30:10 <zgrep> Wait... so if I have 4τ, then |4τ| = ???
04:30:44 <zgrep> Err. No. I can't think.
04:30:55 <zgrep> But... how is 4i easier than 3i?
04:31:12 <rdococ> i is basically the negatives
04:31:32 <rdococ> because square roots are like that
04:31:55 <rdococ> because x*x=-1 doesn't have any real solution
04:32:23 <rdococ> using my adjusted formula, |4t| = i*sqrt(-16) = 4ii = -4
04:32:29 <rdococ> which is easier than -3
04:32:43 <zgrep> But... why's it adjusted that way?
04:32:56 <zgrep> I guess you could say it just, err, is that way... but...
04:33:11 <zgrep> I didn't finish reading the line.
04:33:44 <rdococ> but mine is basically the same as Sgeo__'s @
04:34:05 <rdococ> except that I think tau would be a better symbol to fit it than @
04:34:17 <zgrep> Huh. Is this tau known by any other, more widely accepted names?
04:34:23 <zgrep> tau / @ / whatever.
04:34:53 <zgrep> I meant more as in, is there a wikipedia page with a snippet about it? Or any other links?
04:35:11 <rdococ> nah, idk if anyone thought of it yet
04:36:43 <zgrep> This is pretty neat.
04:37:22 <rdococ> well, I did have a similar idea
04:37:38 <rdococ> a number y where e^yx = sinh(x) + ycosh(x)
04:38:28 <rdococ> so I guess |@| = -1 after all, since it's time and all
04:39:57 <Sgeo__> I should read these logs at some point
04:40:13 <Sgeo__> I'm only half paying attention, and it involves stuff I'm involved with
04:40:31 <rdococ> we should popularise this @ or tau idea
04:41:03 <zgrep> Damn, autocorrect.
04:42:14 <Sgeo__> I'm confused by rdococ's definition... sqrt is always (normally) >= 0 unless comparison is undefined
04:42:37 <Sgeo__> Should it be read as just a^2 + b^2 - c^2 in the conditional?
04:42:41 <rdococ> |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
04:43:01 <rdococ> but it's basically the same as yours, with i added on top
04:43:27 <rdococ> I think this kind of stuff is used, just not in this format
04:43:54 <Sgeo__> Is there a way to get the result to be imaginary? Because afaict exactly that is used as the time dimension
04:43:56 <rdococ> also, since it's mostly position, not rotation, if we add a third dimension they don't have to be quarternions
04:44:13 <rdococ> then just remove the conditional
04:44:50 <Sgeo__> But then we exclude negatives
04:45:10 <Sgeo__> |a + bi + c@ + d#| = ?
04:45:10 <rdococ> what would it mean for the result to be imaginary?
04:45:47 <rdococ> what would # mean then?
04:46:22 <zgrep> Sgeo__: You mean this thing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion
04:46:36 <Sgeo__> hppavilion[1], there's an argument for why |n@| = -n is not a good idea
04:46:52 <Sgeo__> And that |n@| = -|n| makes more sense. Something to do with exponentiation
04:46:56 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: yeah, but if it's part of a system where everything else means something, then it's weird
04:47:05 <rdococ> I had the |n@| = -|n| idea
04:47:20 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/VqUBVapD/
04:47:21 <rdococ> before we realized it was about the time dimension
04:47:56 <Sgeo__> I'm still convinced that $ or # is time and @ or tau is something else
04:48:41 <rdococ> distance is a measure of how easy it is to get to somewhere
04:49:03 <rdococ> if you need to be there in a larger time, then it's easier because you have more time to spare
04:49:12 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Also, we need to standardize terms instead of saying "x or y"
04:49:13 <Sgeo__> hppavilion[1], you just tried to define $ which I tended to call #
04:49:20 <rdococ> so that's why tau makes distances lower - getting over there in a day is easier than a minute
04:49:45 <rdococ> it's used in other areas
04:49:54 <rdococ> time as a negative dimension isn't a new idea
04:49:59 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: How about we give all the esonums Georgian names?
04:50:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/georgian.html
04:50:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Greek letters are waaaaaaay overused, and Hebrew is reserved for cardinality
04:51:02 <rdococ> I have an even better idea
04:51:09 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
04:51:55 <hppavilion[1]> But... neoletters doesn't render Goergian. Of course.
04:52:13 <rdococ> but I'm sticking with t
04:52:18 <Sgeo__> What's wrong with @ similar to ai for something similar to i except with absolute
04:52:26 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: you should update your neoletters
04:52:45 <\oren\> it's supported Georgian for a while
04:53:10 <rdococ> does this chat even support emojis?
04:53:16 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
04:53:53 <Sgeo__> Some clients might not display it nicely
04:54:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:54:57 <zgrep> rdococAbs[a_, b_, c_] := Module[{s}, s = a^2 + b^2 - c^2; If[s < 0, I*Sqrt[s], Sqrt[s]]]
04:55:13 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
04:55:28 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:56:09 <hppavilion[1]> Open the "THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG" window that Windows gives me (sorry)
04:56:28 <rdococ> Sgeo__: if $ was time, then what's # or t?
04:56:37 <\oren\> try restarting your caht app
04:57:03 <Sgeo__> rdococ, not really sure. A time dimension that doesn't get weird past the speed of light?
04:57:14 <Sgeo__> Or it gets weird in a different way from reality
04:58:08 <rdococ> |$| = i, but |t| = -1... what is imaginary distance anyway
04:58:58 <\oren\> try setting your font to another one and back to neoletters?
04:59:14 <\oren\> I do that in my terminal each time I update it
05:00:03 -!- variable has joined.
05:00:57 <\oren\> IRC is a very simple protocol, easy to implement
05:01:15 <myname> i'd use ii as a foundation
05:02:14 <\oren\> there are well-known libraries in Perl and Python for IRC
05:02:52 <variable> hppavilion[1]: yeah, IRC is fairly easy to write a client for
05:02:56 <variable> look at the sheer number of bots
05:03:04 <myname> http://tools.suckless.org/ii/
05:05:39 <zgrep> \oren\, can you guess which is the number 3 and which is the russian letter 'eh'? https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/YIDcIFry/3eh.png
05:05:52 <zgrep> Without trying it yourself, that is. :P
05:06:49 <myname> i'd say the left one is a 3
05:07:58 <\oren\> myname: you are correct
05:11:46 <\oren\> neoletters also has ↋ƐɛɜɝꜾꜿεЄԐԑЗз
05:11:50 <rdococ> should I implement t into Squeak?
05:13:52 <rdococ> |a + bi + cj + ... + zt| = √(a² + b² + c² + ... - z²) if a² + b² + c² + ... - z² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² + c² + ... - z²)
05:14:02 <rdococ> generalized to n dimensions
05:14:37 <rdococ> but help me discover t*t
05:15:56 -!- Lilly_Goodman has joined.
05:16:48 <rdococ> |1 + 1i + 2t| = isqrt(1 + 1 - 4) = -2
05:17:51 -!- Lyka has joined.
05:18:16 <Lyka> update on hexadec: made a "reduced" form
05:18:16 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: make sure in the font menu you select neoletters Regular?
05:18:31 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/49wLRcB3
05:19:52 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: well that's a prblem. it should be "Regular" nd not "Normal"
05:20:27 <\oren\> the earlier versions had "Normal" the newer ones have "Regular"
05:21:33 <\oren\> hmm maybe go to the controlpanel->fonts and find neoletters and delete it?
05:24:48 <Lyka> so, um, does the language make any sense now?
05:25:01 <\oren\> hmm I wonder why installing the new version over the old doesn't work when the naming of the subfonts changed?
05:29:23 <Lyka> is this a bad time to ask about a language i made?
05:29:39 <rdococ> can you help me determine what t*t is?
05:29:40 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
05:30:12 <zgrep> Dang. Perl6 has a bunch of neat things it can do... http://tpm2016.zoffix.com/
05:30:20 <rdococ> I can't seem to figure it out
05:31:27 <rdococ> also, how is getting to (5, 5) in 6 seconds as easy as getting to 50, 50 in 51 seconds?
05:31:45 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² / c²) if a² + b² / c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² / c²)
05:32:00 <zgrep> rdococ: Well, what's t?
05:32:19 <rdococ> |5, 5i, 6t| = sqrt(25 + 25 / 36) = sqrt(50 / 36)
05:33:03 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
05:33:07 <Lyka> (5*sqrt(2)) / (50*sqrt(2)) == 1/10
05:33:22 <zgrep> rdococAbs[5, 5, 6] = Sqrt[14]
05:33:45 <Lyka> i'm not good at math
05:34:20 <Lyka> passed calc 1 by sucking up during the last 5 weeks
05:34:41 <Lyka> passed calc 2 by dropping out of college
05:34:47 <rdococ> then |1 + 1i + 2t| = sqrt(1 + 1 - 4) = sqrt(-2) but |2 + 2i + 4t| = sqrt(4 + 4 - 16) = sqrt(...oh
05:35:06 <zgrep> rdococAbs[1, 1, 2] = -Sqrt[2]
05:35:40 <rdococ> should it be - c^2 or / c^2?
05:35:57 <zgrep> rdococAbs is written with - c^2... division?
05:36:09 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² / c²)
05:36:24 <rdococ> getting there in 5 seconds is twice as hard as 10 seconds, same as if you double the distance
05:36:34 <zgrep> Or (a^2+b^2)/(c^2)
05:36:57 -!- Lilly_Goodman has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:37:03 <rdococ> I think that will work better
05:37:14 <zgrep> rdococAbs2[1, 2, I] = -Sqrt[5] :P
05:37:43 <rdococ> well, Abs2[1, 1, 2] should be 1 + 1 / 4, or 1/2
05:38:12 <rdococ> |1 + 1i + 2t| = sqrt(1 + 1 / 4) = sqrt(1/2)
05:38:36 <rdococ> |2 + 2i + 4t| = sqrt(4 + 4 / 16) = sqrt(1/2)
05:40:20 <rdococ> what software are you using? Mathematica?
05:40:30 <zgrep> Unfortunately, no.
05:40:35 <rdococ> how much does it cost?
05:40:55 <zgrep> I get it free, courtesy of school.
05:41:06 <rdococ> I ask how much money something will cost and you give me the vaguest answer.
05:41:28 <zgrep> http://www.wolfram.com/mathematica/pricing/
05:42:18 <zgrep> Though technically, your function is easily written in K...
05:42:43 <rdococ> or any other language really
05:42:58 <rdococ> just need to figure out t*t
05:43:34 <rdococ> well, multiplying by a unit like 1, i or t should keep the magnitude the same
05:45:43 <Lyka> great.... |x|-rated conversation
05:46:53 <rdococ> a space angle is rotation
05:46:58 <rdococ> a space time angle is velocity
05:46:58 <zgrep> rdococ: Mathematica can *sometimes* be fed into Mathics, and perhaps even into WolframAlpha sometimes.
05:48:01 <zgrep> Mathics is this thing: https://mathics.angusgriffith.com/
05:49:08 <zgrep> Lyka: kparc.com/k.txt
05:49:26 <zgrep> Though I don't know if it'd work with imaginary numbers. It wasn't exactly designed for those, I don't think.
05:49:33 <zgrep> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_%28programming_language%29
05:54:55 <Lyka> solve for x where x^0 != 1
05:59:24 * Lyka imagines sheep with numbers on them
05:59:40 -!- Lyka has left.
06:10:14 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye).
06:16:42 <b_jonas> Internet is full of April's fools jokes now. http://www.questionablecontent.net/ has one.
06:25:20 -!- evalj has joined.
06:32:16 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
06:35:29 -!- impomatic_ has joined.
06:35:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
06:35:45 -!- dos has joined.
06:39:25 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
06:49:03 -!- variable has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero).
06:50:07 <b_jonas> In underload, is it possible to store data in the source code at four bits per source code character density such that the program can decode it unambiguously?
07:08:05 <b_jonas> I think it's possible. I'll have to try to make a proof.
07:09:14 <dos> Someone should write a Hello, World with 1000000% cruft, MVC, etc.
07:09:21 -!- dos has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
07:10:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46711&oldid=46710 * Kc kennylau * (+47) /* 0 to 255 using only a, e, u, z (To be completed) */
07:11:49 <Taneb> Today's GG is probably very good for certain shippers
07:13:44 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: I'm absolutely certain that's been done... http://www.ariel.com.au/jokes/The_Evolution_of_a_Programmer.html
07:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Perhaps we should make the world's most absurdly bloated Beginning Projects Repo
07:16:26 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: https://github.com/fwilson42/SimpleJavaEasyNumber
07:18:00 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:30:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
08:07:09 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/snoopavision?v=MU39xSNukfg
08:24:50 -!- oerjan has joined.
09:08:25 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
09:09:21 -!- heroux has joined.
09:20:35 -!- Deepfriedice has joined.
09:30:09 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined.
09:31:55 <lambdabot> boily asked 8h 39m 14s ago: do you feel matched?
09:34:10 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined.
09:36:33 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
09:36:34 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane.
09:37:16 * oerjan realizes he just did something he's been annoyed at others doing.
09:37:27 <oerjan> @tell boily RE: matching.
09:40:03 <zgrep> oerjan: You're unmatched?
09:43:57 <zgrep> That's both happy and sad. :|
10:06:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
10:19:56 <FireFly> I guess unmatched is better than mismatched (maybe(
10:20:07 <FireFly> Hm, that should probably have been (maybe]
10:31:01 <b_jonas> Are there any vim users here? Vim has a jump list where it tracks big moves, but that's not really what I need. Is there an edit location list where I can find the places I've edited in the file previously?
10:31:26 <zgrep> FireFly: Agh! [)))
10:32:22 <FireFly> b_jonas: well, it has an undo tree that you can query for some info, maybe it includes position
10:32:28 <FireFly> I wouldn't know how to use it though
10:33:14 <FireFly> There's a plugin called gundo that visualizes the undo tree and allows you to jump around in it
10:34:09 <b_jonas> I'd like commands like prevpos and nextpos in joe-editor, which let me quickly jump to places of previous edits. It's very convenient but few editors seem to have it.
10:34:26 <b_jonas> Lets you avoid setting bookmarks a lot.
10:35:37 <FireFly> http://stackoverflow.com/a/2131407/1267058 oh.
10:35:44 -!- boily has joined.
10:37:15 <b_jonas> FireFly: ah, that says g, might do that
10:37:49 <FireFly> It seems to work, toyed around with it a bit
10:37:50 <b_jonas> g ; for previous and g , for next. strange assignments
10:38:25 <FireFly> Probably related to the ; , commands that repeat f/F/t/T forwward/backward
10:38:44 <FireFly> But vim's assignments can be pretty weird and arbitrary sometimes
10:39:04 <FireFly> You could always remap them to something else prefixed by <Leader> if you prefer
10:51:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 14m 27s ago: RE: matching.
10:54:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:04:03 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
11:08:59 -!- J_Arcane has joined.
11:23:16 -!- boily has quit (Quit: HELICAL CHICKEN).
11:59:26 -!- tromp has joined.
12:03:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
12:27:08 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
12:29:32 -!- Deepfriedice has quit (Quit: Leaving).
12:39:16 -!- Reece` has joined.
12:39:23 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving).
12:41:02 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
12:43:54 -!- shikhin has joined.
12:49:57 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
12:50:23 -!- hydraz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
12:51:29 -!- rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:51:47 -!- shikhin has joined.
12:51:55 -!- hydraz has joined.
12:51:56 -!- hydraz has quit (Changing host).
12:51:56 -!- hydraz has joined.
12:53:54 -!- tromp has joined.
13:00:46 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
13:03:16 -!- shikhin has joined.
13:05:19 -!- rdococ has joined.
13:07:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:21:47 -!- bender| has quit (Changing host).
13:21:47 -!- bender| has joined.
13:41:59 -!- spiette has joined.
13:46:36 -!- p34k has joined.
13:53:49 -!- impomatic_ has quit (Quit: http://corewar.co.uk).
13:54:04 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*).
13:54:28 -!- Frooxius has joined.
14:18:12 -!- bender| has quit (Quit: Leaving).
14:35:45 -!- asie has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4).
14:38:07 -!- tromp has joined.
14:43:04 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
14:49:09 -!- Kaynato has joined.
15:05:35 -!- lambda-11235 has joined.
15:11:33 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:24:16 -!- Kaynato has joined.
15:33:35 <rdococ> |1 + tt| = sqrt(1 / t^2)
15:37:52 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:45:37 <rdococ> sgeo told us that @ was inspired by time dimension and so we come up with |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b| --- the last part was someone else's idea from another channel
15:55:47 -!- mihow has joined.
16:28:15 -!- XorSwap has joined.
16:28:43 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:31:28 -!- XorSwap has quit (Client Quit).
16:32:31 -!- Kaynato has joined.
16:32:40 <izabera> http://senseis.xmp.net/?TerritoryScoringOnGoServersConsideredHarmful oh em gee
16:32:47 <izabera> considered harmful essays everywhere
16:36:36 <rdococ> |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b|
16:37:29 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
16:38:50 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: help me with this- |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b|
16:38:56 <rdococ> I want to find out t^2
16:39:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Try defining a and b to appropriate numbers and working from there
16:39:50 <rdococ> no, t is like i but different
16:40:24 <rdococ> |t| = sqrt(0 / 1) = |0|/|1| = 0 now
16:40:44 <rdococ> and |a + 0t| = sqrt(a^2 / 0) = sqrt(infinity)
16:40:52 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: If |t|=0, then doesn't that just make t=0?
16:42:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:42:19 <hppavilion[1]> "And now there is non-binary sex. I guess that would be "analog sex"..."
16:42:25 <rdococ> in my system |0| =/= 0
16:42:56 <myname> so... |2t| = 0, but |t + t| = -1
16:43:01 <hppavilion[1]> (sex is gender in this case, not the act between bored teenagers)
16:43:15 <rdococ> |t + t| = sqrt(0 / 2^2) = 0
16:43:31 <rdococ> |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b|
16:43:56 <myname> in t+t, a is t and b is 1, in 2t, a is 0 and b is 2
16:44:41 <rdococ> |t + t| = sqrt(t^2 / 1) = t...
16:45:03 <rdococ> |2t| = sqrt(0 / 4) = |t + t| = sqrt(t^2 / 1)
16:45:31 <rdococ> sqrt(0 / 4) = sqrt(t^2) = t...??????? what
16:46:07 <rdococ> my original definition was |a + bt| = √(a² - b²)
16:47:24 <rdococ> but that would make it as easy to go 10000 miles in 10001 seconds than to go 1 miles in 2 seconds, whereas the second one is much harder
16:47:33 <rdococ> so I changed it to |a + bt| = √(a² / b²)
16:48:34 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: One of the benefits of @ that t seems to lack is that @ is logical and straightforward; it just has one little gotcha that makes it different, but that can be explained in a single equation with exactly 1 operation (assuming -1 is syntactically a number, not "apply negation to 1")
16:49:13 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: And you have to establish all these other rules in the process
16:49:30 <rdococ> we recently found out that sgeo's latest definition for @ is |a + b@| = √(a² - b²)
16:49:44 <hppavilion[1]> There are other subtleties, but the straightforward part of i is just i=sqrt(-1)
16:50:41 <rdococ> but it's not exactly the same as t
16:51:07 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: it should be equal difficulty to go 100 miles in 200 seconds as it is to go 10 miles in 20 seconds, t does this but @ doesn't
16:51:26 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Beautiful esonums can be explained as a single operation on them equaling a number that operation usually cannot produce
16:51:42 <rdococ> |10 + 20t| = |100 + 200t| but |10 + 20@| =/= |100 + 200@|
16:52:13 <rdococ> that's why I changed it to /
16:53:02 <rdococ> another idea I had was e^fx = sinh(x) + rcosh(x) where the esonum is f
16:53:21 <rdococ> hyperbolic sine and cosine
16:53:32 <rdococ> so it's a hyperbolic i
16:53:38 <rdococ> should I change the definition to that?
16:54:11 <\oren\> we REALLY need to make templates compile faster
16:55:19 <\oren\> @1337 i am a leet haxor
16:56:32 <rdococ> e ͭ ͯ = sinh(x) + tcosh(x)
17:00:29 <rdococ> what about this instead - e ͭ ͯ = sinh(x) + tcosh(x)
17:00:45 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The two characters after e aren't rendering
17:01:21 <rdococ> how'd you figure it out?
17:01:38 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: My browser still renders them, and I have the godlike powers of COPY AND PASTE
17:02:03 <rdococ> e^tx = sinh(x) + tcosh(x)
17:02:19 <rdococ> do you think the idea is better than my other one?
17:02:51 <oerjan> i'm not sure there isn't already a t which matches there
17:03:09 <rdococ> but the t is an esonum
17:03:12 <\oren\> hppavilion ypu really neeed an update
17:03:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: what's j
17:03:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I was typing it, but people kept talking :P
17:04:06 <\oren\> try deleting the font in the vontrl$panel and reintaling it
17:04:31 <\oren\> sorry fpr bad spelibg[im on my phone
17:04:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: try plugging it into the series for e^x, that's my goto-definition for whether that makes sense.
17:05:05 <oerjan> (of course then you have to define the limits too)
17:05:19 -!- vanila has joined.
17:05:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:05:43 <oerjan> > [(exp x, sinh x + cosh x) | x <- [0, 0.1 ..]]
17:05:44 <lambdabot> [(1.0,1.0),(1.1051709180756477,1.1051709180756475),(1.2214027581601699,1.221...
17:06:37 <rdococ> e^1x = sinh(x) + cosh(x)?
17:06:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
17:06:44 <\oren\> the build failed again
17:08:12 <rdococ> e^tx = sinh(x) + tcosh(x), t =/= 1
17:08:28 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Also, the name changed from "normal" to "medium"
17:09:05 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: good it shoukd at least work with georgian noe
17:09:13 <oerjan> rdococ: the hyperbolic functions are pretty much what you get when you take the expressions for the trigonometric ones in terms of exp and remove i's everywhere
17:09:32 <\oren\> ill add those superscripts[when i get home ftom work
17:09:37 <oerjan> > [(exp (-x), sinh x - cosh x) | x <- [0, 0.1 ..]] -- testing another
17:09:38 <lambdabot> [(1.0,-1.0),(0.9048374180359595,-0.9048374180359595),(0.8187307530779818,-0....
17:09:54 <rdococ> how does time rotation work
17:09:59 <oerjan> hm needs switching order, i think
17:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> (In retrospect, the reason it wouldn't update the font was probably because I had applications with it open
17:12:38 <oerjan> @check \x -> exp x == sinh x + cosh (x :: Double) -- wondering if ghc uses this exactly
17:12:39 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
17:12:55 <\oren\> nah i did a tesy it is a bug in windows where it won't ovrwrite a otf with a ttf
17:13:28 <oerjan> @check \x -> exp x == sinh x + cosh (x :: Double)
17:13:30 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 3 tests and 4 shrinks):
17:13:37 <\oren\> for some goddamn reason
17:13:52 <rdococ> what about this instead? t = i^2, t =/= -1
17:15:11 <oerjan> rdococ: that violates basic equality laws, which are logic not arithmetic.
17:15:35 <rdococ> I don't see that stopping any other people from doing stuff like it
17:15:45 <oerjan> thataway lies NaN and other madness.
17:15:52 <rdococ> like I saw an esonum where q^2 = 1 but q =/= 1
17:16:25 <oerjan> rdococ: that doesn't violate equality. you can have as many solutions to q^2 = 1 as you want in a general algebra.
17:16:39 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's one of the three 2d real algebras (or something)
17:16:45 <oerjan> of course it won't be a field if there's more than two.
17:16:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The other two are the complexes and k, which is like j but for 0
17:17:22 <rdococ> oerjan: so why can't I do sqrt(t) = i then and t =/= -1?
17:17:27 <oerjan> rdococ: but t = i^2 and i^2 = -1 imply t = -1 from pure logic.
17:17:54 <rdococ> q^2 = 1 and sqrt(1) = q
17:18:09 <rdococ> mine isn't any different
17:18:15 <vanila> ??????????????????????????????????
17:18:50 <rdococ> or ti = -i, but t =/= -1
17:19:28 <oerjan> rdococ: because sqrt a = x, is not the unique solution to x^2 = a, but if you don't have (sqrt a)^2 = a then it's not a square root.
17:20:07 <vanila> then take the 'algebraic esoclosure'
17:20:13 <rdococ> okay, I'm using the ti = -i definition along with t =/= -1
17:20:20 <vanila> which is where you add infinityl many distinct solutions to every algebraic equation
17:20:26 <oerjan> rdococ: the point is, to get i^2 to be t you have to redefine i^2 which already exists.
17:21:11 <rdococ> but there's nothing stopping me from breaking that rule and giving it two solutions
17:21:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:21:45 <rdococ> ti = -i but t =/= -1...
17:22:50 <oerjan> rdococ: ok, just define 2+2 = t while you're at it.
17:24:07 <oerjan> vanila: way ahead of you, it seems.
17:24:20 <oerjan> or perhaps crashing high speed into the same point.
17:25:07 <oerjan> (as usual, the real challenge is to end up with anything actually interesting.)
17:25:40 <oerjan> rather than a chaotic mess where everything is equally true.
17:27:12 <oerjan> make it 1=2 and we can summon pope russell
17:27:20 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
17:29:21 <rdococ> here it says that in the Minkowski metric, time is imaginary
17:30:16 <rdococ> |x + (y + ti)i| = |x + yi - t|...
17:33:47 * oerjan summons john cleese to teach quintopia
17:34:21 <oerjan> WITHOUT WHICH THEY ALL IT IS?
17:34:55 <oerjan> actually the IT is redundant
17:37:20 <HackEgo> 1274) <coca-cola> bite the wax tadpole
17:43:51 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
17:46:40 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:47:01 -!- Kaynato has joined.
17:57:08 <quintopia> i probably meant sine qua omnia est
17:57:28 <oerjan> quintopia: still using a singular verb, there
17:57:57 <oerjan> you just changed the gender of omnia
17:57:57 <b_jonas> no, it's fastened with a staple
17:58:27 <oerjan> quintopia: no, it is neuter plural nominative
17:58:37 <prooftechnique> omnia is plural in nominative, accusative, and vocative
17:59:05 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/omnis#Declension
17:59:11 -!- Caesura has joined.
17:59:37 <quintopia> i want the equivalent of english "everything"
17:59:52 <oerjan> quintopia: omne, then.
18:02:33 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:04:12 <prooftechnique> Oh, duh. There are like 3 quis in Latin, and I mixed them up
18:04:55 <oerjan> `le/rn LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI
18:05:04 <oerjan> `learn LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI
18:05:07 <HackEgo> Learned 'latina': LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI
18:05:10 <shachaf> le/rn: print better output twh
18:05:24 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/latin{a,}
18:06:46 <shachaf> even your beloved learn is not immune
18:10:03 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
18:10:23 <shachaf> That wisdom entry is outdated now.
18:10:24 <oerjan> <b_jonas> In underload, is it possible to store data in the source code at four bits per source code character density such that the program can decode it unambiguously? <-- of course not, there are only 9 command characters and no way to decode non-command ones. also some combinations are nops or infinite loops so you have to avoid them.
18:10:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: disce: not found
18:10:59 <oerjan> you can store 1 bit per character, though, as i did in the rule 110 program.
18:11:50 <Caesura> Daoyu commands fill the 4-bit space
18:12:07 <oerjan> maybe you can find a code that gives 2, i'd be surprised if 3 were possible (you'd need to be able to lose only one character possibility on average)
18:12:37 <Caesura> If the specification is unclear, please tell me so I can improve it
18:12:58 <Caesura> Ah, I'll fix that right now
18:13:05 <Caesura> They were a bit of a rush job
18:14:36 <oerjan> prooftechnique: ooh you meant that disco literally
18:14:59 -!- oerjan has set topic: Aut disce aut discede | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Budapest.
18:15:07 <prooftechnique> I guess really the gerund is discere, but whatever hth
18:17:31 <Caesura> disco, discere, dedici, no PPP
18:17:52 <quintopia> prooftechnique except the new ones
18:18:34 <Caesura> Doceo, docere, docui, doctus
18:19:03 <Caesura> 3rd person plural indicative active present
18:19:12 <oerjan> prooftechnique: i think "discere" is the infinitive, but wiktionary's table lists it as nominative gerund which it sort of logically is
18:19:13 <Caesura> Hence doctor, one who teaches
18:19:36 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
18:19:41 <Caesura> Infinitives as gerunds can be done... but there isn't anything like "discendus"
18:20:11 <oerjan> Caesura: because the real gerund is not used in the nominative...
18:20:32 <Caesura> This is where I realize that I have spent the last two years unlearning the latin from the three years prior
18:20:44 <prooftechnique> I think they call it a degenerate form or something? My Latin grammar is a little hazy
18:21:59 <prooftechnique> I wish I knew more Ancient Greek, but I don't think any time I spent learning Latin was wasted
18:22:28 -!- Reece` has joined.
18:22:43 <Caesura> I learned a bit of Attic Greek under the notion that it would be easier
18:22:49 <Caesura> It is not. It is not easier than Latin.
18:22:59 <oerjan> Caesura: funny, virtually all my latin grammar i learned ~ 30 years ago from a grammar i found in the town library. and i still remember much of it.
18:23:34 <Caesura> Aeorist prefixing was such a pain with greek
18:23:35 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit).
18:23:48 <Caesura> I won awards in state and national competitions on Latin
18:24:10 <prooftechnique> I would really like to know what it is in the human brain that seems to lead to the mutation of "to be" and "to go" in so many languages.
18:24:11 <quintopia> wow i wouldnt have guessed you were as old as that implies.
18:24:34 <Caesura> I should try and keep Latin fresh in my memory with a bit more effort, hm
18:25:03 <quintopia> i learned it in two year-long classes 15 years ago and remember little besides vocabulary and 1st and 2nd declension suffices
18:25:40 <Caesura> I think I spent my fifth year of latin unlearning it, the more I think about that
18:25:59 <Caesura> The gerundive / gerund distinction never really sunk into my memory, I think :x
18:26:14 <Caesura> Gerundive is the non-nominative, the noun of "to verb," right
18:28:04 <oerjan> <Caesura> disco, discere, dedici, no PPP <-- hm are you saying wiktionary's table is erroneous, then
18:28:20 <prooftechnique> Though Romans were goofs and sometimes used the gerundive in place of the gerund for euphony
18:28:27 <ais523> any april 1 stuff worth checking out this year?
18:29:19 <prooftechnique> Personally, I can't wait to see what my talky box from Amazon has cooked up while I've been at work. It has the power to call my phone, so I expect prank calls.
18:30:31 <prooftechnique> oerjan: PPP is the past participle, which disco does not have.
18:30:47 <vanila> ais523, you can telnet read wikipedia
18:31:04 <vanila> and this https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7511
18:31:26 <fungot> prooftechnique: i have a drug overdose? wah, that spoils it even more simply in our new language
18:31:37 <ais523> vanila: telnet wikipedia actually seems potentially useful
18:31:41 <ais523> I hope they keep it around
18:31:48 <vanila> ais523, there is already a gopher wikipedia
18:31:50 <ais523> I mean, you could telnet to port 80 but it's annoying
18:32:48 <ais523> huh, RFC MMI syntax has a MIGHT?
18:32:54 <ais523> Agora uses MAY for that
18:34:15 <ais523> someone posted a patch for a leftpad(2) syscall to the Linux kernel
18:34:25 <ais523> that was at least mildly amusing
18:34:25 <Caesura> The wikipedia table lists the supine... hmmm
18:34:34 <ais523> the kernel devs are pretending to take it seriously
18:35:09 <Caesura> We were taught with the fourth principal part as the PPP
18:36:21 <b_jonas> did they also post a libc wrapper with userspace emulation as fallback to the gnu libc mailing lists?
18:36:32 <ais523> come to think of it they shuld probably implement it in the vDSO
18:36:36 <ais523> b_jonas: not that I saw
18:39:25 -!- lleu has joined.
18:39:43 -!- ais523 has quit.
18:39:52 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:42:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:45:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:46:34 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye).
18:50:23 <rdococ> what about an esoteric programming language that's turing complete because of its esonums
18:51:09 <rdococ> a number defined to behave like a number, but slightly different
18:51:22 <APic> Marvin Minsky ♥
18:51:28 <vanila> rdococ, that's a really cool idea i like it
18:51:33 <rdococ> e.g. an esonum called @ could do this - |@| = -1
18:51:47 <vanila> rdococ, did you hear my idea about alg. esoclosure
18:51:53 <rdococ> don't think it was my idea
18:52:44 <rdococ> an esolang with addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponentiation and i
18:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> p sure you can have a TC esolang just with reals and equality...
18:53:26 <vanila> what about a programing lanugage based on counter examples to tarskis high school algebra problem?
18:53:52 <vanila> those are surely esonumbers
18:54:04 <rdococ> a programming language that doesn't need to evaluate things to manipulate them
18:54:27 <rdococ> it would be able to detect that 3+2 = 4+1 without evaluating either for example
18:54:55 <rdococ> a better example is 3+2+x = 5+x
18:55:12 <rdococ> it would be able to do that without evaluating x
18:56:40 <rdococ> super lazy evaluation - if there's any way round evaluating something, do that way
18:57:00 <rdococ> 3+2+x = 5+x for example - you might need to evaluate 3+2, but not x
18:57:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Daoyu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46712&oldid=46696 * Kaynato * (+1059) Clarifications (replaced diagrams)
18:57:53 <rdococ> e^sqrt(-1)x would equal sin(x) + sqrt(-1)cos(x) without evaluating sqrt(-1)
18:58:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
18:58:06 <rdococ> say |@| = -1, no error there either
18:58:56 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:59:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Kaynato * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Daoyu Symbol Table.png]]": Irrelevant information removed
18:59:39 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: we were just discussing super lazy evaluation - an idea where a programming language would try its absolute hardest not to evaluate something, it's almost not lazy
19:00:08 <vanila> how would it know what not to evaluate?
19:00:11 <rdococ> e.g. in such a language, a computer would detect that e^sqrt(-1)x = sin(x) + sqrt(-1)cos(x) without ever knowing that sqrt(-1) = i
19:00:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Ultimate Lazy Evaluation just prints out the program and tells you to "do it your fucking self"
19:00:22 <Caesura> quintopia: Is this better?
19:00:35 <rdococ> vanila: it wouldn't evaluate anything, just manipulate, simplify and stuff
19:01:21 <rdococ> (1/0)/0 = 1, and it wouldn't even know that 1/0 evaluates to an error
19:01:25 -!- jaboja has joined.
19:01:38 <Caesura> You're talking about symbolic computation?
19:01:49 <Caesura> Pretty sure you can set that up with Wolfram
19:02:07 <rdococ> yes but it detects stuff like 1/0
19:02:19 <rdococ> mine would be too lazy to realize that 1/0 evaluates to an error
19:02:25 <\oren\> huh theres a vuln in emacs this time?
19:02:27 <Caesura> With some redefinitions you coul do that also
19:03:09 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, so i guess you just try every evaluation order possible until you get a normalised expression?
19:03:36 <rdococ> maybe it could use substitution
19:04:01 <Caesura> Wolfram evaluates 1/(1/0) to be 0, it seems
19:04:24 <Caesura> Although it also WARNS you that 1/0 is encountered, it doesn't break the entire thing
19:05:12 <Caesura> It is very powerful for symbolic computation
19:05:12 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, well i mean at this stage it's not actually true
19:05:13 <rdococ> but it's eager enough to warn you
19:06:37 <rdococ> you need to add them, right?
19:06:55 <Caesura> No, that's for multiplying exponents of equal bases
19:07:15 <Phantom_Hoover> the issue with doing e.g. the 1/0 trick you mentioned is that if you specify all these substitution rules you can evaluate 1/0 to get contradictory values
19:07:29 <Caesura> @PH Yes, thus indeterminate forms
19:07:29 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
19:08:49 <rdococ> infact, why not make the numbers mathematical symbols?
19:08:59 <\oren\> prooftechnique: i just got a work email saying dont use emacs
19:11:14 <rdococ> who knew sqrt(-1) could be so useful
19:12:10 <Caesura> You have heard of Cayley-Dickson construction?
19:12:19 <Caesura> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley%E2%80%93Dickson_construction
19:12:46 <vanila> would you recommend it?
19:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but after a certai point the results of that can't be called 'numbers'
19:13:04 <vanila> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski%27s_high_school_algebra_problem
19:13:13 <Caesura> Yes, true, but the first few steps provide useful constructs
19:13:31 <Caesura> The Geometric Algebra is much more powerful, however, in my own personal opinion
19:13:52 -!- Reece` has joined.
19:17:29 <Caesura> Anyway, if I could ask for feedback
19:17:43 <Caesura> Is the current specification of Daoyu understandable and clear
19:17:46 <\oren\> that list of axioms is bullshit. i was taught plenty about subtraction and negative numbrts in high school
19:17:46 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit).
19:18:15 <rdococ> isn't subtraction just adding negative numbers?
19:19:14 <\oren\> right. but that list is missing --x = x for example
19:26:29 <\oren\> it shoukd be called tarskis alternate universe high school problem, where subtraction is a university discipline
19:29:25 <\oren\> ofc one day we might consider complex numbers to be a high school subject
19:31:52 -!- me2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:32:49 -!- me2 has joined.
19:38:31 <hppavilion[1]> (y/// is less well-known, and m// is not used at all)
19:43:43 -!- vanila has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:56:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
20:03:44 <rdococ> what about a language where there are no conditionals and you have to execute arbritary code stored in lookup tables
20:06:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:09:32 <b_jonas> ais523: have anyone examined how densely you can embed information in underload source code such that the underload program can decode it?
20:09:52 <ais523> b_jonas: it's possible to manage at least one bit per character
20:10:07 <b_jonas> ais523: I think you can manage two bits per char at least, but I haven't made a proof
20:10:08 <ais523> IIRC somewhere oerjan made a parser for strings of : and ^
20:10:28 <ais523> going higher there isn't an obvious method, but that doesn't mean there isn't a non-obvious one
20:10:29 <b_jonas> I should examine it, I don't understand underload enough and this seems like a thing that lets me explore it
20:11:14 <ais523> well reaching three bits per character is obviously impossible
20:11:20 <b_jonas> ais523: I think I'll try to decode strings made of ~ ! : *
20:11:24 <ais523> so the true value is ≥ 1 and < 3
20:11:32 <b_jonas> ais523: you could receive fractional bits
20:11:40 <ais523> b_jonas: !~~ and ~~! are eqivalent
20:11:45 <b_jonas> and it doesn't have to be stateless, if parenthesis are involved
20:11:46 <ais523> b_jonas: sure, I expect the number of bits to be fractional
20:11:59 <ais523> also ~~ and :! are equivalent
20:12:12 <ais523> and :*:* is equivalent to :::***
20:12:17 <b_jonas> ais523: no no, if the string (supposed you know the length) is parenthisized, you execute it, then the characters get pushed into the stack, and you can execute them one by one
20:12:25 <b_jonas> ais523: as in, you can use a to parenthisize them
20:12:41 <ais523> b_jonas: a parameterizes an entire stack element, it doesn't break the string into characters
20:12:49 <ais523> ~~ and :! are equivalent; (~~) and (:!) are also equivalent
20:12:53 <ais523> and both equivalent to ()
20:12:58 <b_jonas> you, but ^ opens the parenthesis, doesn't it?
20:13:14 <ais523> b_jonas: it just moves the contents of the TOS onto the program
20:13:27 <ais523> (~~)^ is equivalent to (:!)^ is equivalent to ~~ is equivalent to :!
20:13:32 <ais523> none of them do anything :-P
20:13:42 -!- Caesura has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:13:51 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and if that element it moved is a parenthesisized block, then doesn't executing the block push each of the elements to the stack?
20:14:07 <oerjan> b_jonas: you did notice my comment about underload to you above, right?
20:14:31 <ais523> b_jonas: if you move ((~~)) to the program you end up with (~~) in the program, which then pushes (~~) to the stack
20:14:45 <ais523> can you give an example of what you're /expecting/ to happen? it feels like you have some sort of fundamental misconception here
20:14:51 <oerjan> that rule 110 program is the :^ parser
20:16:02 <ais523> come to think of it, I suspect that strings of :^a are parseable
20:16:07 <ais523> I'd be pretty surprised if they weren't
20:16:19 <ais523> oh, except if you have a then ^
20:16:22 <ais523> with nothing in between
20:16:59 <oerjan> i concluded : and a were parseable, but more complicated than what i did, and also uglier.
20:17:00 <ais523> and strings like a:^ would also cause problems
20:17:16 <oerjan> but no other 2 character combinations work
20:17:19 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:17:24 <ais523> :a is obviously parseable, because the result of a never affects the second stack element
20:17:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
20:17:40 <ais523> meaning that you can create a sentinel value that does to act as your zero
20:17:40 <b_jonas> ais523: I expect that the program (xy) puts x and y to the stack (x on top), so (xy)!^ will try to execute y, and (xy)~!^ will try to execute x
20:18:00 <ais523> b_jonas: ah, right, your problem is that the stack isn't a stack of characters
20:18:03 <ais523> it's a stack of strings
20:18:12 <ais523> (xy) pushes a single element, xy, to the stack
20:18:17 <ais523> then ^ moves that element as a whole into the program
20:18:22 <b_jonas> sure, it's a stack of strings because ((xy)) pushes a single string (xy) to the stack
20:18:38 <ais523> normally we put parens around each stack element when discussing Underload
20:18:39 <b_jonas> doesn't executing a parenthesis open it to the stack?
20:18:42 <oerjan> i forgot that S is useless, so you have only 8 usable chars, so clearly 3 bits is impossible, right
20:18:52 <b_jonas> what the heck is the point of that?
20:18:53 <ais523> oerjan: and ( and ) have to be paired
20:18:57 <b_jonas> why doesn't it open the parens
20:19:04 -!- Kaynato has joined.
20:19:05 <ais523> b_jonas: because that would be an entirely different language
20:19:08 <b_jonas> I mean, if you don't want to open the parens, you can just a^ instead of ^
20:19:27 <ais523> actually in Underlambda I'm going the other way, removing S
20:19:45 <b_jonas> this makes underload much harder to program
20:19:47 <ais523> this allows you to optimize code both inside the stack and inside the program
20:19:48 <ais523> it becomes a pure functional language because the stack elemenets are entirely opaque
20:20:29 <oerjan> ais523: ( and ) pairing is not _really_ a problem as i think that gives only o(something) contribution to the no. of bits.
20:20:42 <oerjan> but any nop like :! is fatal
20:21:01 <ais523> b_jonas: Underload's meant to be about function representation, not string manipulation
20:21:18 <b_jonas> ais523: it's not "string manipulation", more like tree manipulation
20:21:23 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:21:34 <b_jonas> because it manipulates elements that are either letters or parenthisized trees
20:21:45 <b_jonas> it doesn't manipulate individual characters of a tree
20:21:55 <ais523> actually Overload worked like that
20:22:12 <b_jonas> did I accidentally invent a language?
20:23:19 <ais523> perhaps, I don't like it though :-(
20:23:23 <rdococ> what about a language where a sentence is an array of words
20:23:26 <ais523> the set of commands doesn't make much sense in this language
20:23:27 <rdococ> and a word has a meaning
20:23:31 <ais523> you'd probably want a string compare command too, at least
20:23:56 <rdococ> cat is the noun, ate is the verb, dog is the subject, or victim
20:24:17 <b_jonas> ais523: no no, not a string compare command
20:24:25 <b_jonas> I'd want a nop command though, probably space and newline
20:24:42 <b_jonas> make that space, tab, lf, cr
20:24:58 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
20:25:22 <ais523> b_jonas: this is like having C, plus a command that breaks a function pointers into individual asm opcodes in the function it points to
20:25:30 <ais523> and yet have no way to determine what those opcodes are other than executing them
20:26:22 <b_jonas> I'm reminded to two obfus in other languages: the lua one I wrote that uses the same string as both code and data so that if you try to tamper with the code then the output breaks completely, and pts's obfu in dc which uses the same strings as both code and data: dc can't really examined things so I thought that was impossible, but it turns out dc has a length command that queries the length of a string
20:27:28 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I can see why you don't like that concept
20:27:51 <ais523> it's just a mix of paradigms that doesn't make sense
20:28:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: dinner).
20:29:44 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:36:13 <HackEgo> 471) <itidus20> lets not wander around the mulberry bush beating our heads
20:36:29 <int-e> fungot: do you know any berries?
20:36:29 <fungot> int-e: ( and i've only seen ocean from far above in a positive light)
20:37:02 <oerjan> perhaps it was deleted.
20:37:02 <b_jonas> so in the description of Underload at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Commands , the stack top is on the right, not on the left like other such descriptions usually denote, right?
20:37:18 <int-e> that sounds very malancholic, fungot.
20:37:18 <fungot> int-e: the description sounds like fnord talk to me instead
20:37:21 <fungot> b_jonas: proposals only last 15 minutes of fame? guile? you don't get special food, but they look exactly the same for cl, not fnord two of those
20:37:37 <b_jonas> fungot: have you read the SIGBOVIK 2016 proceedings?
20:37:37 <fungot> b_jonas: http://www.fourmilab.ch/ hotbits/ with fnord key and browser with fnord?) has a problem. whom should it be:
20:37:39 <oerjan> b_jonas: i thought on the right was standard forth-notation?
20:38:28 <oerjan> int-e: will you show them all?
20:38:41 <int-e> oerjan: no I'm just waiting for this stupid day to pass.
20:39:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: I guess top on right makes sense in a forth/postscript-like language where lots of statements are literal so just push on the stack, so the stack often looks similar to the code
20:40:08 <shachaf> int-e: What's wrong with today?
20:40:16 <HackEgo> olist 1032: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:40:31 <oerjan> b_jonas: anyway half the point of the notation we've settled on is that it makes it easy to see underload execution as a program transformation - where stack elements don't need to be distinguished from the program.
20:41:07 <b_jonas> and it seems that http://www.cs.cornell.edu/icfp/task.htm puts the stack top on the right as well
20:41:38 <b_jonas> it's just not so obvious from descriptions like this because most operations would make sense to define with the inputs in any order
20:41:40 <FireFly> int-e: #ircpuzzles is a good way to spend April 1 (and 2 and 3 and.. well, it usually takes a while to solve them)
20:41:49 <b_jonas> and in any case you can permute the stack top elements before running the command
20:41:52 <FireFly> (it's a yearly tradition to have puzzles on April 1)
20:41:57 <Taneb> I am awful at writing documentation]
20:42:07 <Taneb> Especially when it's a program which I know how it works
20:42:27 <Taneb> And didn't intend anyone else to use it when I was writing it
20:42:53 <FireFly> noh that was an evil olist
20:44:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46714&oldid=40261 * B jonas * (+5)
20:44:58 <oerjan> shachaf: you may have had your fun, but what about YOUR IMMORTAL SOUL?
20:45:28 <oerjan> it may be in peril tdnh
20:45:58 <shachaf> didn't you just say it was immortal
20:47:00 <oerjan> yes, but not pain resistant
20:47:26 * Taneb is finally writing a page for COMPLEX
20:48:12 * Taneb has largely forgotten the art of wiki page writing
20:51:21 <rdococ> who needs conditionals
20:51:39 * Taneb needs conditionals
20:52:00 <rdococ> you could remove the IF from Lua and it'd still be turing complete
20:53:15 <rdococ> proof: local code = {true = function () print("yay") end, false = function () print("nay") end}; code[3 > 2]
20:53:56 <rdococ> say bye to for loops too
20:54:18 <rdococ> and any other non-necessary construct
20:54:34 <rdococ> I will strip Lua and make a turing tarpit called TarLua... or EsoLua...
20:55:03 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:57:42 <b_jonas> ais523: it turns out that one thing that confused me about underload is this: in the (stackbefore – stackafter) style description of stack-based language operations, including underload at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Commands , the stack is listed with the top of stack on the right, but this isn't obvious at first.
20:58:08 <ais523> b_jonas: this is standard for Underload; I'm not sure if it's mentioned on the page
20:58:13 <ais523> I write it in most of my writing about it though
21:01:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46715&oldid=46711 * Iconmaster * (+2538) Got a lot of information from the site onto the wiki
21:02:59 -!- evalj has joined.
21:07:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:08:20 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
21:14:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46716&oldid=46714 * Iconmaster * (+10) Stub'd
21:15:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pylongolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46717&oldid=46708 * Iconmaster * (+34) Stub'd
21:16:10 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!).
21:16:11 <Taneb> Do we have a stub template?
21:16:19 <Taneb> I can't be bothered to write this article right now
21:16:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46718&oldid=46707 * Iconmaster * (+10) Stub'd
21:17:02 -!- iconmaster has joined.
21:19:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Iconmaster]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46719&oldid=37163 * Iconmaster * (-75)
21:22:41 <iconmaster> Hello. Suddenly felt like coming back and helping with some wiki stuff. How's it going?
21:24:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bulan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46720 * Rdococ * (+925) It's still Turing complete. I think. I'll leave the exercise of proving that it's TC up to you.
21:24:58 <myname> https://youtu.be/QScVVDwxSWA procrastinating like a pro
21:27:26 -!- jaboja has joined.
21:29:49 <\oren\> i ordered a elektronika mk-61 calculator
21:33:16 -!- iconmaster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:33:40 -!- Reece` has joined.
21:35:39 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit).
21:39:27 <zgrep> \oren\: A soviet calculator, neat.
21:40:11 <Taneb> oerjan, how do I apply the stub template
21:44:19 -!- Reece` has joined.
21:44:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[COMPLEX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46721 * Taneb * (+345) Start making this article
21:44:49 -!- Reece` has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:46:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46722&oldid=46691 * Taneb * (+14) /* C */ Add COMPLEX
21:47:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nathan van Doorn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46723&oldid=35933 * Taneb * (+13) Add COMPLEX
21:48:01 <hppavilion[1]> I'm attempting to make a regex family called Irgex, with support for 2D matching and TC matching and all of these nice things
21:48:34 <myname> actually, there are 2d regex
21:48:37 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Why limit it to the Gaussian Integers? Why not allow real values in general?
21:50:05 <myname> i actually used these in my thesis
21:52:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm trying to find different classes of expressions
21:53:09 <hppavilion[1]> The first I define is the π-expression, which is the traditional x+y, -z, [i], etc.
21:53:36 <hppavilion[1]> There's also the α-expression, which is a generalization of s/// and y///
21:53:38 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], reasons
21:54:10 <hppavilion[1]> I'm stuck there though. Are there any other fairly general types of expression?
21:56:22 <zgrep> For a group of esoteric language creators, I'm surprised that the wiki doesn't auto-generate the list of languages...
21:57:04 <zgrep> All pages that are programming languages should be put in a category (or tagged, or something) "language", and the list would automatically update...
21:57:37 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Do you know of any other types of expression besides the traditional arithmetical and x///?
21:57:53 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Not sure exactly what you mean...
21:58:16 <zgrep> Regular expressions?
21:58:24 <zgrep> Yes, but I don't know what an expression is...
21:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: An expression is some predefined set of symbols combined with more expressions, basically
21:58:59 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:59:06 <zgrep> Ah. How... how... [insert word here].
22:00:09 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:04:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:08:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fuun DNA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46724 * B jonas * (+3506) Created page with "'''Fuun DNA''' is a self-modifying string-rewriting language. It was defined for the task of the ICFP contest 2007 (“Morph Endo”). == Description == The DNA of the extr..."
22:10:11 -!- boily has joined.
22:10:17 <lambdabot> CYUL 012200Z 27020G27KT 15SM FEW030 FEW045 10/03 A2941 RMK CU1SC2 CU TR SLP963
22:10:24 <lambdabot> ENVA 012150Z 08003KT 9999 SCT045 BKN060 04/M03 Q1011 RMK WIND 670FT 18006KT
22:10:26 -!- earendel has joined.
22:11:34 -!- tromp has joined.
22:13:13 <oerjan> boily: there was snow on the ground this morning
22:13:29 <boily> WE DON'T HAVE SNOW ANYMORE! WE'RE FREE! MWAH AH AH AH AH AH!
22:13:38 <oerjan> new snow, that is. there's some old in parts.
22:14:20 <Taneb> I haven't seen snow since... last Tuesday
22:14:25 <Taneb> But that was up on some high hills
22:15:38 <boily> Tanelle. there's snow where you are at?
22:15:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:16:35 <lambdabot> EGNT 012150Z 18010KT 150V220 9999 SCT023 08/04 Q1007
22:16:50 <Taneb> boily, it was in the Lake District
22:17:06 <lambdabot> KOAK 012153Z 25012KT 10SM FEW025 17/08 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP222 T01670083
22:17:11 <Taneb> The bit of England with things that are almost mountains
22:17:38 <shachaf> Taneb: Is that like the Lake Union district in Seattle?
22:18:06 <shachaf> You did mention something about using Seattle public transit the other day.
22:18:40 <Taneb> I distinctly mentioned not using Seattle public transit
22:21:13 <shachaf> So how do you get around the Lake Union district?
22:21:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fuun RNA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46725 * B jonas * (+1034) Created page with "'''Fuun RNA''' is a graphic description language. It was defined for the task of the ICFP contest 2007 (“Morph Endo”). == Description == The RNA of the extraterrestrial..."
22:21:34 <oerjan> i've used seattle public transit. i think.
22:21:35 <Taneb> shachaf, solid boots
22:21:41 <Phantom_Hoover> the room i ended up in got two pianists who are now playing live
22:22:11 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What's this chat thing?
22:22:22 <shachaf> oerjan: was it before i was born or something
22:22:40 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Can I find out about it without logging in?
22:22:59 <oerjan> shachaf: were you born in 1996?
22:23:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46726&oldid=46722 * B jonas * (+30) + Fuun DNA, RNA
22:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, not without scraping a bunch of idiots trying to work it out
22:25:23 * boily carbon dates shachaf
22:26:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46727&oldid=46672 * B jonas * (-95)
22:26:10 <shachaf> you can't just carbon date people
22:26:40 <shachaf> oerjan: not more than one at a time, if you're carbonogamous
22:27:07 <oerjan> i think you are switching the wrong part of the word tdnh
22:27:44 <shachaf> i got a pun quota to meet here
22:28:23 <b_jonas> oerjan, ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal has a webchat link to here through qwebirc. I prefer the kiwi irc webchat to qwebirc. Should I replace the webchat link, replace the webchat link but mention qwebirc as an alternative, add a kiwi irc link as an alternative, or do nothing?
22:28:23 <oerjan> well you're doing the pun equivalent of cockney rhyming
22:28:49 <b_jonas> Note that kiwi irc doesn't require people to fill a captcha, which can be considered either an advantage or a disadvantage.
22:29:04 <shachaf> oerjan: you can only carbon date people if you're carbonogamous
22:29:13 <b_jonas> Do we have a category for a language that is known to be weaker than Turing complete?
22:29:27 <b_jonas> Fuun RNA is not turing complete.
22:29:38 <b_jonas> boily: it's not equivalent to a PDA
22:29:42 <boily> shachaf: the original pun was 0.9 shachafs, but the remastered version... 0.55 shachafs.
22:29:47 <ais523> b_jonas: if there are multiple working webchats you should probably list all of them and put your favourite first
22:30:22 <b_jonas> boily: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuun_RNA although that page doesn't tell enough to glaen the computational strength, you have to read the specs
22:30:46 <fungot> boily: oh yeah?! well you're a funny guy, though.)
22:31:11 <b_jonas> ais523: ok. I'll test if it still works first though.
22:31:53 <oerjan> b_jonas: i thought the one that was listed was freenode's official webchat. they've blocked others on occasion i think.
22:32:18 <shachaf> boily: what's the threshold for a mapoling
22:32:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, qwebirc is what the freenode admins themselves run, and they suggest it on their homepage
22:33:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: as in, freenode runs a qwebirc webchat server itself which lets you connect to freenode
22:33:25 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Do we have a category for a language that is known to be weaker than Turing complete? <-- not a general one, no
22:33:34 <b_jonas> But I prefer kiwiirc. Advantages include that it lets you connect to any irc network.
22:33:35 <ais523> we have specific sub-TC categories
22:33:45 <ais523> and most sub-TC languages are either in one of them or very very weak
22:34:09 <oerjan> <boily> fungot: glaen? <-- like glean, but you might get a leprechaun curse if you're not careful.
22:34:10 <fungot> oerjan: oh ok. they are comparable. the resistance is useless. it's not all that magical.), tell me
22:34:28 <boily> shachaf: somewhere below 0.5, give or take a few subjective centishachafs.
22:34:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:34:49 <shachaf> is this a logarithmic unit or what
22:34:57 <b_jonas> ais523: Fuun RNA is very weak in some sense, yes
22:35:12 <b_jonas> But it has a high constant factor
22:35:44 -!- lambda-11235 has joined.
22:35:54 <b_jonas> It can be executed in linear amount of memory, but the constant factor is quite high because it involves 600x600 pixel 4 channel 8 bit image canvases.
22:36:03 <boily> shachaf: it's a semilogarithmic one hth
22:36:18 <hppavilion[1]> One that can be used to generate language descriptions automatically. Then I'll make it so Hackego can spit them out
22:36:18 <b_jonas> At least so I think. I'm not quote sure how Fuun RNA works really.
22:36:24 <b_jonas> You'd have ot read the specs.
22:36:33 <b_jonas> But I'm quite sure it's weaker than turing
22:36:59 <shachaf> boily: how does that work fcir
22:36:59 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
22:37:55 <oerjan> b_jonas: linear memory fits the bounded-storage machine category
22:38:25 <boily> shachaf: it's logarithmic for the most part, but then it gets linear for things approaching zero. avoids problems with derivatives and infinite slopes.
22:38:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: which category is that? link?
22:38:54 <oerjan> it's an unofficial one
22:38:56 <b_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Bounded-storage_machine
22:39:09 <oerjan> the last edit was me trying to get rid of it...
22:39:19 <b_jonas> That doesn't really say what it means, and I'd think it means constant bounded
22:39:33 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit).
22:39:55 <b_jonas> 003624 < b_jonas> You'd have ot read the specs.
22:40:17 <b_jonas> url is https://kiwiirc.com/client/chat.freenode.net/#esoteric by the way
22:40:37 -!- Sgeo__ has joined.
22:41:37 <hppavilion[1]> What is the maximum length hackego can send as a message?
22:41:59 -!- woboily has joined.
22:42:16 <shachaf> boily: 15:40 <shachaf> Oracle deprecated the Java browser plugin this year. :-(
22:42:20 <oerjan> b_jonas: ok you want linear bounded automata
22:42:24 <shachaf> 15:40 <shachaf> javascript more like java's crypt
22:42:40 <shachaf> gotta calibrate this thing
22:42:46 <hppavilion[1]> (That moment when you search for how do do something in bash for HackEgo, but you look up how to do it in HackEgo specifically and thus get no relevant results)
22:42:53 <b_jonas> What's with xkcd today? All it says is “The xkcd April 1st comic is currently experiencing technical difficulties.” and shows wednesday's comic.
22:43:05 -!- woboily has quit (Client Quit).
22:43:43 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Either the xkcd April 1st comic is currently experiencing technical difficulties, or that's the joke
22:44:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, but Fuun RNA is probably actually weaker than a PDA (I'm not quite sure), and definitely weaker than arbitrary linear bounded machine, probably can be executed in linear time.
22:44:39 <hppavilion[1]> `` cat /dev/urandom | tr -dc 'a-zA-Z0-9' | fold -w 200 | head -n 1
22:44:41 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: that can't be the joke. there have never been a MWF with no strip.
22:44:50 <boily> hppavilion[1]: that feels weird. Randall always had nice Apriljokes.
22:45:01 <HackEgo> Mx6laZBPgxJpUlcgwwSY1G7kHxefQnSM6PVVhkb9G5OJBeDSnhKXXXBMa5v7MnG7SSirBK2SYXdYRZT9lpdeOeOS3YVRWNQ22lY7uFjAjHdf3nMFqs3UqtC6Ob5aH5kTf5bGLDUvKwDq3gJrJdZdPHr8YDxO0dFXH7hFHmiElMFP7vuRXrUUZOYFXQso6I9NSLguieFJ
22:45:06 <b_jonas> And xkcd is never experiencing technical difficulties.
22:45:14 <b_jonas> I think there's probably a comic, it's just well hidden so I can't see it.
22:45:37 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> What is the maximum length hackego can send as a message? <-- 350 bytes
22:45:38 <hppavilion[1]> One of my teachers shaved his glorious lumberjack beard, making him look 10 years younger so he could pretend to be a new student at the beginning of class by just sitting at a desk
22:45:52 <b_jonas> But the problem is, either the explainxkcd.com folks can't see it either, or for some reason they thought the joke of hiding it is funny and don't want to spoil it (yet).
22:45:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm pondering making `longcat, which prints out multiple messages
22:46:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: longcat: not found
22:46:49 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I somehow did that without realizing the pun xD
22:47:04 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: oh, you're "pondering making"
22:47:13 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: `longcat would be like cat, but it prints multiple messages to show the whole file.
22:47:21 <oerjan> b_jonas: anyway, most of the categories are upper bounds, so it's fine to be weaker.
22:47:26 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: yeah, but it doesn't exist
22:47:34 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: we have a command that pastes to a website instead
22:47:37 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: But would also be useful for long HackEgo messages
22:47:52 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: The problem is I don't think there's a way to make HackEgo print more than one message
22:48:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: but the wiki says the linear bounded automata is an equivalence actegory, not an upper bound
22:48:59 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Unless HackEgo has some direct-to-IRC command <-- nope.
22:49:01 <b_jonas> anyway, if any of you figure out which category applies (for which you may have to read and ponder the spec very carefully, for it's an esolang so the comp class may not be obvious, even after the definition), and read the wiki descriptions of categories, feel free to add it
22:50:22 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: jevalbot is also bounded output, it won't print more than 6 lines of output per evaluation command (in my default config and in evalj; j-bot has the limit raised to I don't know how many lines)
22:52:07 <b_jonas> You can print 6 full lines instead of an ellipsis in the sixth line, but you can't print more than six
22:52:12 <Taneb> ...do we have two different bots specifically for evaluating J
22:52:20 <b_jonas> Taneb: no, it's the same bot, two instances
22:52:26 <evalj> b_jonas, jevalbot source is http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz
22:52:31 <j-bot> b_jonas, jevalbot source is http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz
22:52:49 <Taneb> b_jonas, I think I was using "bot" to mean "account associated with an instance of a bot"
22:53:28 <b_jonas> We used to have three different irc bots that can evaluate J, namely besides jevalbot, buubot used to be able to evaluate it (I wrote the J evaluator plugin myself), plus NotJack had a bot he wrote in J.
22:53:56 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: evalj is my instance but I don't run it constantly, only very occasionally start it up and then stop it within a day when I turn off my home computer
22:53:59 <Taneb> Can EgoBot? If not, why not?
22:54:22 <b_jonas> Taneb: it would probably be possible to install a J interpreter to hackego
22:54:33 <hppavilion[1]> I can't get my IRC client to work for some reason...
22:54:34 <b_jonas> we could even do it as a user
22:54:42 <b_jonas> but it would output only 1 line per command of course
22:55:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
22:58:00 <Taneb> I'm heading to bed now
22:59:51 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:02:50 <boily> @localtime shachaf
23:02:52 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Fri Apr 1 16:02:50 2016
23:10:58 <zgrep> @localtime lambdabot
23:10:58 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
23:11:25 <lambdabot> Local time for zgrep is Fri, 01 Apr 2016 23:11:25 GMT
23:18:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NetBytes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46728 * Iconmaster * (+4415) Created page with "'''NetBytes''' is a language created by [[User:iconmaster]] in [[:Category:2016|2016]]. It severely limits the available memory and program length of programs, instead requir..."
23:19:38 -!- iconmaster has joined.
23:20:06 <iconmaster> Well, it's been years, but I'm finally making another esolang.
23:20:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Iconmaster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46729&oldid=46719 * Iconmaster * (+64)
23:23:39 <hppavilion[1]> For some reason, my IRC client won't connect properly. It times out
23:32:28 -!- tromp has joined.
23:36:56 -!- p34k has quit.
23:37:22 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined.
23:37:37 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:37:52 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined.
23:39:24 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:40:22 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined.
23:40:44 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:41:02 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined.
23:41:33 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:41:55 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined.
23:42:29 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:42:51 <boily> you lack ambition. test more! FOR SCIENCE!
23:43:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:43:47 -!- int-e has left ("BUGGY CHICKEN").
23:43:47 -!- int-e has joined.
23:44:23 -!- Kaynato has joined.
23:45:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:46:00 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:47:52 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined.
23:48:29 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:48:42 -!- hppavilion[t] has joined.
23:48:55 -!- hppavilion[t] has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:54:25 <fungot> prooftechnique: hm. that's not hardcore enough for you... but unfortunately, regardless of whether i _think_ i want a glass of merlot.
23:55:41 <fungot> test stringtest stringtest string