00:00:12 <oerjan> `learn Nød is French for vertex.
00:00:14 <HackEgo> Relearned 'nød': Nød is French for vertex.
00:00:33 * oerjan pellets b_jonas with some punctuation.....!?!?
00:01:34 <oerjan> also that wisdom entry does not make sense.
00:02:15 <b_jonas> oerjan: in reality, nœd is French for node
00:02:18 <oerjan> `forget the meaning of life
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00:06:12 <oerjan> `learn Nœd is Norwegian for distress.
00:06:15 <HackEgo> Learned 'nœd': Nœd is Norwegian for distress.
00:06:34 <oerjan> i'm not sure that's precise enough...
00:07:45 <b_jonas> oerjan: is that the same as "not" in german?
00:13:28 <HackEgo> A stalagmite is an upside-down stalctite.
00:13:37 <hppavilion[2]> I need a logical next item in this sequence: Either the value 1 OR the value 2; the value 1 AND the value 2; a map from the value 1 TO the value 2
00:13:47 <HackEgo> A stalactite is an upside-down stalagmite.
00:14:01 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/lct/lact/' wisdom/stalagmite
00:14:59 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Any idea what's higher than a function (where a higher-order function is at the same level as a function)?
00:16:23 <oerjan> `learn A curse is a curse, off course, of course.
00:16:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'curse': A curse is a curse, off course, of course.
00:23:39 <Taneb> And a curse, it gets worse, of course, of course
00:23:43 <Taneb> That is, of course
00:24:00 <Taneb> Is something I can't make fit to the original song
00:25:38 <oerjan> all we need is curse whose name rhymes with Ed hth
00:27:41 <HackEgo> "Schaf" is german for "sheep". There is absolutely no relation to shachaf.
00:33:40 <oerjan> <b_jonas> `slashlearn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you. <-- um you weren't paying attention, were you.
00:33:52 <oerjan> i guess it was too subtle.
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00:44:48 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ soviet russia?
00:45:32 -!- hppavilion[2] has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Camelot (not THE PIT OF THE SOUL-EATER).
00:46:52 <HackEgo> 515) <monqy> one time I tried cpp programming <monqy> it was hellish <monqy> maybe I should try again
00:46:56 <HackEgo> 884) <fizzie> What I learned on the Prolog course is that it's a good language if you need a thing that can say "No" a lot.
00:47:02 <HackEgo> 686) <fizzie> Stupid W|A doesn't even understand "Vatican papal density". (As far as countries go, they've got a quite high one.)
00:47:03 <HackEgo> 899) <ais523> oerjan: humans are very hard to anthropomorphise
00:47:03 <HackEgo> 127) <fungot> Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible)
00:47:03 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: way to break the chain
00:47:25 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
00:48:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: there was a principle, and i suspect you broke it although your reference is too obscure for me to know on the spot.
00:49:31 <oerjan> i cannot manage to google the term "<b_jonas> `slashlearn soviet russia/In soviet russia, this wisdom entry reads you."
00:49:49 <oerjan> oh i hadn't actually c/p it
00:49:59 <oerjan> "pit of the soul-eater"
00:50:16 <oerjan> where's that from, and how did that turn into camelot
00:51:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I chose two random mythical locations and spewed them out onto the topic
00:51:54 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: the "pit of the soul eater" itself is just a general concept
00:52:05 <oerjan> well doesn't fit the theme
00:53:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Kinshasa (not Leopoldville).
00:55:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Remember, I'm American and thus don't understand the rest of the world.
00:55:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: have you considered google hth
00:56:20 <oerjan> you could, for example, google kinshasa.
00:57:21 <oerjan> although that might increase the chance of it fitting, that's not the definition
00:58:17 <oerjan> also, google Istanbul (not Constantinople) while you're at it.
00:58:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, I know, Istanbul (not Constantinople)
00:58:55 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I think I'm the one that started the chain, actually xD
01:00:06 <HackEgo> o is a popular comedy adventure fantasy webcomic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world,
01:01:22 <oerjan> `` \? o | fmt | tail -3
01:01:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: wait what? wasn't the first one Budapest? was that supposed to be because it got renamed from Pest-Buda or Aquincum or something?
01:01:26 <HackEgo> problems at the same time. Hopefully not in that order, so they get \ their personal problems taken care of before the final battle. And it's \ a comedy.
01:01:36 <oerjan> b_jonas: i haven't seen budapest
01:01:46 <b_jonas> I thought that was the first one..
01:01:59 <b_jonas> or maybe some other place in Hungary or something
01:02:01 <oerjan> istanbul was definitely first.
01:02:16 <oerjan> and i think the second was me changing it to Oslo
01:03:20 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: The first one was Istanbul (not Constantinople), which was done by me. It was California previously, before which it was Budapest, but neither of those had the not-clause
01:03:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The lack of not-clause disqualifies them from the chain
01:05:16 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Ceylon (Sri Lanka).
01:05:22 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Ceylon (not Sri Lanka).
01:05:30 <oerjan> b_jonas: um that's backwards
01:06:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Ceylon (not Sri Lanka). Lack of cloaks will result in immediate execution..
01:06:47 <oerjan> i think this chain is jumping the shark.
01:07:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Ceylon (not Sri Lanka). Lack of cloaks will result in immediate execution by shark..
01:07:43 <oerjan> and you didn't fix the order tdnh
01:08:06 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Dunaújváros or St. Petersburg (not Sztálingrád or Leningrad).
01:08:33 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think two of those words are _very_ hungarianly spelled
01:09:01 <oerjan> especially Dunaújváros wtf is that
01:09:32 * oerjan swats himself -----###
01:09:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: the "new" name of Dunapentele. it's been renamed in ancient times.
01:10:23 <oerjan> i don't think it was -grád, though?
01:11:30 <b_jonas> oerjan: ah no... Sztálingrád is another renamed town
01:11:47 -!- b_jonas has set topic: Pickle surprise! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Dunaújváros or St. Petersburg (not Sztálinváros or Leningrad).
01:13:21 <oerjan> "After the Hungarian revolution of 1956 the new government renamed the city the neutral Dunaújváros in 1961, which means "Danube New City" (New City on the Danube)." <-- where is the "new"
01:13:57 * oerjan assumed the ú was part of the river
01:18:43 <b_jonas> `slashlearn try/There is no try.
01:19:11 <HackEgo> spice girls/The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice.
01:19:34 <b_jonas> `slashlearn spice girls/The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice.
01:19:39 <b_jonas> `slashlearn spice/The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice.
01:19:50 <HackEgo> The Spice Girls are Pog spice, Story spice, Sarah spice, Gender spice, and Baleen spice.
01:20:08 <HackEgo> kitten typesetting? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:20:13 <HackEgo> Kitt is the singular of kitten.
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01:25:08 <oerjan> `learn Octarine is a black variety of peach, from which the color is named.
01:25:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'octarine': Octarine is a black variety of peach, from which the color is named.
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01:31:45 <HackEgo> 323 is a quine in McCulloch's first machine
01:31:56 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/323
01:42:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Are any of McCulloch's Machines decidable?
01:43:44 <oerjan> i've only looked at no. 2, which i didn't get quite to the bottom of
01:44:04 <oerjan> i suspect it's decidable, but it got complicated enough that i'm not entirely sure
01:44:17 <b_jonas> `learn Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgendered seer Anchises stupid politics questions concerning contemporary noble families.
01:44:23 <HackEgo> Learned 'virgil': Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgendered seer Anchises stupid politics questions concerning contemporary noble families.
01:45:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OK, because I need a decidable-but-suitably-complex machine to troll first-year CS students
01:46:27 * oerjan has a hunch b_jonas is misspelling "vigil"
01:48:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: no. 1 is decidable because it's a subset of 2 that doesn't reach the hard cases
01:49:13 <oerjan> for deciding mortality that is
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02:11:23 <Kaynato> I have just realized a horrible potential hole in my specification of Daoyu
02:12:39 <Kaynato> If the program calls EXECS from the first-level program, which navigates to the top-level program data and then calls an EXECS from the top-level program data,
02:13:43 <Kaynato> It is unclear whether the EXECS should then act on the data already present or instantiate a new child of that program-data
02:13:58 <Kaynato> What say you? New branch or not?
02:18:13 <Kaynato> Both are particularly problematic for the programmer - however, the second one is also particularly problematic for the implementer
02:18:39 <Kaynato> The question, I suppose, is between self-interaction (which is a tenet of the language) and getting lost in trees of branching
02:19:58 <hppavilion[1]> Kaynato: Keep languages focused on on the initial featureset rather than heaping new aspects of complexity onto them.
02:20:13 <Kaynato> It's not really an addition but filling a hole
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02:20:26 <Kaynato> I realized that the functionality here was not specified but didn't know what to do with it...
02:20:47 <Kaynato> As it stands, the current implementation just creates a new datatape when calling EXECS without checking to see if one exists, which..
02:21:00 <Kaynato> Leads to segfaults when it tries to follow the chain backwards
02:21:21 <Kaynato> But so far I haven't really made programs that rely on this distinction of functionality
02:21:52 <Kaynato> I suppose it would be imperative to have self-interaction instead of that sort of situation, then, because it would keep in line more with the rest of the language
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02:24:19 <Kaynato> Recently I think I have devised a generalizable format for making a state machine in the language, and am currently using this design to write a 99 bottles of beer program
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02:47:15 <hppavilion[1]> For far too long, power has been concentrated in the hands of "root" and his "wheel" oligarchy. We have instituted a dictatorship of the users. All system administration functions will be handled by the People's Committee for Democratically Organizing the System (PC-DOS).
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03:58:56 <Kaynato> After a 99 bottles program, what would be a good thing to work on in an esolang?
04:01:41 <zzo38> Did you write the truth program or Deadfish implementation?
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04:04:31 <MDude> http://www.firthworks.com/roger/cloak/index.html
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04:14:51 <Kaynato> I wrote a truth program, so I suppose Deadfish will be next
04:15:23 <Kaynato> No, wait, it involves squaring numbers
04:16:18 <Kaynato> I blame myself for making a language in which arithmetic is non-trivial
04:17:30 <Kaynato> I would love to but I haven't the slightest idea where to start here.
04:17:38 <Kaynato> I have a strong suspicion that Daoyu is TC, however
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04:18:20 <Kaynato> TC by Equivalency... BF in Daoyu does not seem very feasible.
04:19:18 <Kaynato> As in sensible without extreme amounts of pain and suffeering
04:20:04 <coppro> Kaynato: "modeled after two or so tenets..." you've got me
04:20:38 <Kaynato> Glad to see someone interested :)
04:22:15 <Kaynato> If there is any way to improve the wiki page, please tell me immediately
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04:28:01 <coppro> Kaynato: it would be helpful to have an explanation of child stacks and selections
04:28:23 <coppro> also... how is a new path created?
04:28:40 <Kaynato> Hm, should I put this before or after the commands?
04:30:09 <coppro> Also I don't see an example illustrating #
04:30:34 <Kaynato> Ah, yes, I forgot about that halfway through
04:30:47 <Kaynato> I think an explanation of child tapes and selections should cover it, though
04:33:58 <coppro> is # the only way to make a child tape?
04:36:47 <oerjan> Kaynato: bitwise cyclic tag is a popular equivalence target for very awkward languages
04:37:25 <oerjan> if you can make a queue, you're halfway there
04:38:00 <Kaynato> Hm, this might work. I could extend the 0 and 1 into 0000 and 1000, and I think it could work pretty handily
04:42:38 <Kaynato> Hmm, wait a second. Does the initial data-string also have to be arbitrary for it to be TC?
04:44:50 <oerjan> "*Note*: BCT remains Turing complete even if the initial data-string is always just a single 1."
04:44:53 <Kaynato> I was thinking that it ought to be rather decently doable, aside from that input problem, since using SIFTS, POLAR, and EQUAL, with 0 = 1000, 1 = 1001, nothing = 0000, would work well
04:45:40 <Kaynato> A problem, however, is in reading in the BCT program
04:46:10 <oerjan> you have the option of compiling it to a Daoyu program instead
04:46:35 <Kaynato> Ah, because if I show that every BCT program is a Daoyu program, then it is still a proof
04:47:19 <oerjan> (as long as the construction is computable, but you don't need to do it in either of the languages themselves)
04:47:54 <Kaynato> Mhm. I've written a utility in C for Daoyu which outputs the Daoyu source to construct an arbitrary Daoyu program
04:48:32 <Kaynato> Partially, it's to make writing the 99 bottles program even remotely sane...
04:50:00 <oerjan> i've written haskell utilities like that for other esolangs
04:50:24 <Kaynato> I've recently bought a Scheme book, it seems very good
04:50:39 <oerjan> (see /// and Emmental)
04:51:35 <Kaynato> Ah, yes, I would expect so indeed
04:52:31 <Kaynato> I am not sure... was implementing Daoyu in C the right choice?
04:52:45 <zzo38> I think that is fine
04:53:45 <oerjan> C may not be the easiest language to implement interpreters in, but it does the job
04:54:44 <Kaynato> Necessary, for something like this
04:54:59 <Kaynato> It would make sense, honestly, to make a hardware implementation for this
04:55:31 <Kaynato> I am making a testing Daoyu program to debug some edge behavior of EXECS
04:58:29 <oerjan> Kaynato: btw we have a table css class called plainpres which might make your code-in-table examples prettier (removes the borders)
04:59:33 <Kaynato> Thanks, I just put that in
04:59:59 <Kaynato> Also, would it be a good idea to comment my example code?
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05:17:58 <Kaynato> New EXECS functionality implemented and working, to the sweet sound of SEGVFAULT
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06:04:44 <Kaynato> Added the debug program to the page for some reason... Good night, all
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07:02:48 <zzo38> The rules for Magic: the Gathering do not currently specify what happens if you try to add a snow mana symbol into your mana pool
07:03:47 <shachaf> That's not a thing you can do, is it?
07:04:56 <zzo38> I don't know if there is any combination that would allow it
07:05:23 <shachaf> You also can't add Phyrexian mana to your mana pool.
07:05:33 <shachaf> Those are consume-only symbols as far as I know.
07:05:43 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you think of the new colorless mana symbol?
07:06:38 <zzo38> It is OK, I guess. I may have preferred a solid diamond or thicker but still hollow diamond, but it still works as is.
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07:12:45 <shachaf> I don't think I like that {1} was errataed to the new symbol.
07:14:56 <zzo38> I neither agree nor disagree. However I can note that even if it wasn't changed the effect would be the same. When the amount of colorless mana to add is large I would prefer the number though, and the rules do support it.
07:17:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think it can happen. You can add the mana cost of a card to your mana pool, but snow mana symbols can't appear in mana costs.
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07:45:28 <mroman> cool they're analyzing now how much dialogue in movies is said by what gender.
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08:02:51 <rdococ> what? why the hell would they do that?
08:05:42 <zzo38> It probably also depend what movie, too. With a SQL database listing the movies and dialogues then you can divide to make the statistics whichever one you want to calculate.
08:10:15 <mroman> rdococ: Gender studies of course.
08:13:50 <mroman> also I don't like when newspaper try to dumb stuff down for the reader. That just reinforces inaccurate views.
08:17:41 <rdococ> why would someone do gender studies? all it is is going to cause arguments and excuses for people to moan
08:17:47 <rdococ> it's probably rigged too
08:18:55 <mroman> well... if you see some difference you can either interpret it as good or bad.
08:19:08 <mroman> and convince people it is good or bad.
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08:24:54 <zzo38> That's why you need to provide the raw data so that you can make your own calculation by SQL codes.
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08:33:03 <mroman> It's a matter of how you interpret the data :)
08:33:15 <mroman> 25% people can speak french.
08:33:29 <mroman> It doesn't say squat about why, how and if it's bad or not.
08:33:59 <mroman> sure, if you're french you can get enraged and go yelling around "more people should speak french"
08:34:25 <mroman> or you can get enraged and go yelling around "too many people speak french"
08:38:42 <mroman> also I stumbled upon a video on youtube, started to watch it
08:39:26 <mroman> then suddenly the speaker says "let me point out that this is not anti-jew propaganda" and then I'm like "uhm... why is he saying that"
08:39:38 <mroman> then I read the title of the channel saying "worldwar three" and I'm like "uhm... what?"
08:40:04 <mroman> and by stumbled I mean youtubes autoplay feature :)
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09:38:35 <mroman> It's a ring in the category of bo
09:40:30 <b_jonas> mroman: no, it's just... I'm in a half mind to `learn boring wisdom entries are added by b_jonas to trick others to replace them by good ones
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11:29:59 <b_jonas> boily: you know there are some lines in the wisdom.pdf that are so long they don't fit in the page, right? There's an url in page 13, some lisp code in page 27, another url in page 42,
11:32:22 <b_jonas> boily: a shell command pipeline in page 49, a headword in page 53.
11:33:20 <b_jonas> boily: but thanks for the pdf anyway, it's a nice compilation, I'm glad you're makign it.
11:33:56 <boily> yeah, overlong lines are the bane of my existence.
11:36:46 <b_jonas> fungot, how do you like them overlong lines?
11:37:26 <Taneb> fungot is not here! :(
11:37:51 <boily> fizzie`: WHARGHRLGHGHBLFLGHBHRFHFHFHFHFWERRGRGGGGGGGGGRRRRHHH!
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12:00:19 <HackEgo> slough /slaʊ/ or /sluː/ means a marsh; slough /slʌf/ means skin thrown off a reptile
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12:02:41 <boily> and the UN denies Macedonia? what a world we live in...
12:03:52 <HackEgo> Ha van szíved, hogy mindazt, mit elértél, / Ha kell, egyetlen kockára rakd, / s túltegyed magad, ha veszteség ér, / s ne legyen róla többé egy szavad
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12:07:57 <boily> b_jonas: google translate doesn't help much. nothing lewd in there I hope?
12:08:24 <boily> (as if the Wisdom isn't already lewdfull enough as it is. reproductive organs everywhere...)
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12:35:36 <fizzie> That's been very un-stabbel.
12:36:13 <fizzie> @tell boily OVERFULL HBOX
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12:57:41 <b_jonas> boily: it's Szabó Lőrincz's translation of the same part of Kipling's poem as in `? if
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13:27:13 <mroman> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NriDTxseog
13:27:40 <mroman> I generally tend to associate the west coast/california accents she makes with "mean rich arrogant non-nice white girls"
13:28:06 <mroman> like totally sooo not nice...
13:30:34 <mroman> ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NriDTxseog#t=3m05s )
13:30:35 <idris-bot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NriDTxseog#t=3m05s )<EOF>
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14:59:41 <mroman> we should write a webserver in vbscript
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16:20:34 <rdococ> make it learn yay as YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!
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18:25:05 <gamemanj> Is there some magical fairy I can get that will tell me if I make stupid assumptions like "false is 0"?
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18:43:59 <hppavilion[1]> A combination of log and floor allows you to seriously abuse math
18:48:00 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: That's an operation that takes an integer (or real, maybe) and moves it to after the decimal point
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18:49:24 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Typically- but not necessarily- k is the base that n is expressed in (10, oftentimes), but it can be an arbitrary real to allow for non-place-value systems
18:50:04 <hppavilion[1]> gamemanj: Basically, the floor(log_k (n)) means "the number of digits it takes to write (integer) n out on paper in base k"
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19:02:02 <tromp_> actually, the number of digits is one more than the floor(log())
19:02:24 <tromp_> e.g. 10 takes 2 digits
19:02:48 <tromp_> and the number of Go positions takes 171 digits:)
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19:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> Probably similar to scientific notation, but it uses phi instead of 10
19:09:23 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but also useless in hard science
19:18:19 <lambdabot> -179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805...
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19:19:06 <int-e> > floor (log 0 / log 10) + 1 -- oops, wrong formula ;-)
19:19:08 <lambdabot> -179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805...
19:41:37 <lambdabot> (Integral b, RealFrac a) => a -> b
19:42:21 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Apparently, yeah
19:42:35 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: I've heard there's an algorithm to calculate the nth digit of pi
19:42:42 <lambdabot> -179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805...
19:42:57 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: The last digit of -infinity is 4
19:43:23 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: And yeah, you can calculate the nth digit of pi without having to calculate all the preceeding digits
19:43:46 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spigot_algorithm
19:43:56 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: So what happens if you plug in infinity, assuming that you have at least OK definitions of what happens when you math infinity?
19:45:12 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: It still takes an infinite amount of time to calculate
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19:47:28 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Either way, it seems you can't get an answer from it if you put in infinity
19:50:42 <hppavilion[1]> If the opposite of infinity is unfinity (the infinitessimal), rather than -infinity
19:50:54 <hppavilion[1]> Does the behavior of duality of operations change?
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19:56:53 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘isPrint’ (imported from Data.Char)
19:58:41 <gamemanj> tfw you make a quick patch to a vm to help debug a problem in your program under the vm, and then, due to a shifting about of allocations, find the patch is now crashing the program
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20:15:03 <hppavilion[1]> Do fandoms have a concept of "Low Orbit Ion Canon"?
20:15:31 <b_jonas> fungot, are you cured yet?
20:15:31 <fungot> b_jonas: http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 15698... you should be on a different area at msn.com... thing was also to make it not know how to program
20:16:02 <b_jonas> I'm glad you're back, fungot
20:16:03 <fungot> b_jonas: same source as five in my case
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20:16:48 <gamemanj> fungot: putting absolutely every letter except "o" and "t" in esoteric.
20:16:48 <fungot> gamemanj: sing me the budapest national anthem!!! o_o
20:19:55 <gamemanj> And also asking me to sing songs I don't know.
20:20:48 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i would screw it until i realized its generated :)
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20:48:17 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
20:48:27 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of bad punnery is named after him.
20:49:10 <gamemanj> seems I'm *still* not going to understand that anytime soon
20:49:25 <shachaf> `` cat < wisdom/funpun | cat | rot13 | cat | cat > wisdom/shachaf
20:49:40 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
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21:25:41 <int-e> shachaf: what about impassionate bell peppers?
21:26:38 <shachaf> int-e: :33 < ask the purrson who added that wisdom entry hth
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21:57:10 <b_jonas> `slashlearn oren's font/\oren\'s font is http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
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21:59:25 <b_jonas> `slashlearn lifthrasiir's font/lifthrashiir's font is https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png
21:59:32 <HackEgo> Learned «lifthrasiir's font»
22:01:30 <gamemanj> Ok, why is it that 3 people in #esoteric have their own fonts?
22:01:34 <b_jonas> `slashlearn font/#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ https://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample.png , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz
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22:02:04 <b_jonas> gamemanj: because #esoteric is the international hub of esoteric programming, bitmap font making, and kitten typesetting
22:02:08 <b_jonas> gamemanj: wait, who's the fourth?
22:02:10 <gamemanj> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/font2x.png
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22:03:33 <gamemanj> If it looks awful, that's because it's awful.
22:03:34 <b_jonas> gamemanj: whoa, all in one wide strip. looks strange
22:04:00 <gamemanj> It's laid out so that I can quickly write tools to put it into things.
22:04:44 <b_jonas> I think there was one more, a vector font
22:04:51 <b_jonas> a monospaced one with thin lines
22:06:51 <b_jonas> I think it was hppavilion[1]
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22:07:25 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: can you comment? remind us to screenshots or something?
22:07:38 <b_jonas> I recall it was horribly hinted
22:08:18 <gamemanj> I suppose a monospaced font in a custom format would be the next logical step for a budding font author, unless they know how to use fontforge (note: I do not)
22:08:49 <b_jonas> gamemanj: this had some sort of eso purpose. more than the other fonts that is
22:10:23 <fizzie> I made a font too, for rfk86.
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22:10:34 <gamemanj> Actually, come to think of it, why on earth did I paste the link to my x2 monospace font...?
22:11:34 <gamemanj> (The x2 one doesn't have a good excuse for looking ugly!)
22:11:35 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/rfk86/ is written in it (if the web font stuff works out).
22:11:52 <gamemanj> fizzie: Wow, that is... one tiny font.
22:12:14 <fizzie> Though it was strictly for that use, so I didn't strive for a big character coverage.
22:12:39 <gamemanj> I think the character encoding may be... broken...
22:12:42 <fizzie> It's one tiny screen, 128x96.
22:13:10 <gamemanj> ^ characters copied from the "frame"
22:13:18 <b_jonas> stupid confusing mislabelled stuff
22:14:13 <fizzie> Hm. It works for me in Chrome, but it's possible it's not sending the character set.
22:14:57 <gamemanj> It says "Attempt to use an XML processing instruction in HTML." Which makes no sense.
22:15:46 <fizzie> Huh, yes, it's not quite kosher. Wonder how I never noticed.
22:16:04 <gamemanj> Well, I pressed "View Source" in Firefox and there was a big red line.
22:16:33 <fizzie> The content is xhtml, but it's sent as "Content-type: text/html" with no charset spec.
22:16:53 <gamemanj> Well, Firefox at least believes it's HTML, not XHTML... <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
22:17:14 <fizzie> It kind of predates html5 being a big thing.
22:18:48 <fizzie> I will turn it into something more reasonable, but later.
22:19:01 <gamemanj> "Kittens have eaten the developer's link cable," :( kittens... i thought they were nice...
22:19:16 <gamemanj> and what's this about a modernist sculpture out of the pieces of calculators
22:19:24 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
22:19:32 <fizzie> It was actually one rather big cat.
22:19:53 <fizzie> Cables can kind of look like cat toys.
22:20:38 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
22:20:49 <gamemanj> yay, I'm undocumented! Thank goodness
22:20:54 <gamemanj> the world hasn't found a reason to mock me yet
22:21:37 <b_jonas> I was undocumented for quite long too
22:21:55 <b_jonas> ``` hg log -r wisdom/b_jonas
22:22:01 <HackEgo> abort: unknown revision 'wisdom/b_jonas'!
22:22:12 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
22:22:38 <HackEgo> o_wbanf rtl antlba gvgbxmngbf fmrzéyl. Ubyyégéeőy rtlryőer arz vfzregrx.
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22:24:50 <b_jonas> ``` hg log --template "{date|isodate}\n" wisdom/b_jonas
22:24:54 <HackEgo> 2016-01-18 06:32 +0000 \ 2016-01-17 13:56 +0000
22:25:19 <b_jonas> so I was undocumented until 2016-01
22:26:53 <gamemanj> so in other news, if you need a variety of stick figures for your web comic, and you don't want to draw them, look no further than U+16C0!
22:27:12 * gamemanj had been looking at a bitmap font and noticed weirdness in that area
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22:40:42 <FreeFull> A language that looks like valid C code but has completely different semantics could be fun
22:41:32 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
22:41:34 <gamemanj> How about: passing all values by-reference... making structures objects... and of course making "int" 1 bit in length.
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22:43:57 <gamemanj> Actually, maybe a C compiler that treated all operations as function calls to a standard library... and then seriously screw up that library.
22:44:43 <gamemanj> Like making "a += b;" be more like "(*a) = a[*b];"
22:45:45 <gamemanj> Maybe add an actual increment in the process. (because the in-language ++ would, without fail, cause a segmentation fault)
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22:51:21 <FreeFull> I was thinking more like making even basic things, like the meaning of =, *, and {} completely different
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22:55:21 <oerjan> @tell rdococ <rdococ> what? why the hell would they do that? <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test
22:55:37 <oerjan> seriously, was rdococ trolling
22:56:25 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 20m 12s ago: OVERFULL HBOX
22:56:43 <boily> fizzie: FIZZIELLO. OKAY.
22:56:57 <oerjan> ye olde overfulle hbox
22:58:27 <oerjan> gamemanj: a very common LaTeX warning message
22:59:04 <boily> gamellomanj. do you have a github account?
22:59:11 <oerjan> it basically means that it didn't manage to split your text into lines satisfactorily
22:59:44 <gamemanj> boily: There is a 50% probability. Please refine your question with informative information on the nature of why it was posed.
22:59:45 <oerjan> (although sometimes it's small enough that you can just ignore it, anyway)
22:59:50 <boily> b_jonas: b_jellonas!
23:00:39 <boily> gamemanj: the questional informativeness pertains to the wisdomery collaborationism hth
23:00:49 <oerjan> gamemanj: he's trying to press gang you into sending wisdom pull requests hth
23:01:46 <boily> I wouldn't say "press gang". more like "voluntarily devote oneself for the greater good".
23:02:13 <boily> b_jonas: the Soviet Union renamed cities even in Hungarian?
23:02:15 <b_jonas> boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better.
23:02:32 <coppro> `addquote <b_jonas> boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better.
23:02:38 <HackEgo> 1276) <b_jonas> boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better.
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23:02:58 <oerjan> boily: also in German hth
23:03:44 <shachaf> i guess that wisdom entry never got added
23:03:51 <b_jonas> boily: no, I think the city _started_ as Sztálinváros, but then near 1985 people obsessively renamed every street and other name that could be linked in any way with the communist system or idols, and anything referring to Stalin, Marx, Lenin, or Engels definitely had to go. It's more complicated than that because some things were renamed twice,
23:04:16 <oerjan> `learn Boring means of little interest.
23:04:19 <b_jonas> and some street names did get renamed once under the Soviet rule and then back to their old name after 1990
23:04:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'boring': Boring means of little interest.
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23:04:30 <b_jonas> but I don't think that's happened to Dunaújváros
23:04:36 <shachaf> oerjan: i have a boring bank account
23:04:59 <shachaf> it's hard to get any other kind
23:05:09 <boily> b_jonas: the entries aren't boring. I am pondering about some recategorification, about langs (esoteric or not) and places (fictive or not quite exactly unfictive).
23:05:26 <oerjan> (in case it isn't obvious, i went for meta up there)
23:05:28 <b_jonas> boily: _some_ of the entries aren't boring, yes
23:05:52 <b_jonas> I mix in good ones to stop people from just using the hg log to unconditionally revert everything I do
23:06:28 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway i was thinking of http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/16.04.18 01:40:52 hth
23:06:30 <boily> I tend to disregard some reverts ^^
23:06:51 <oerjan> b_jonas: i distinctly recall reading in wikipedia yesterday that Sztálinváros was renamed fairly early, long before communism ended but after stalinism did
23:06:55 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway the joke is that interest rates are low
23:07:14 <b_jonas> oerjan: Stalin fell out of favor earlier or something
23:08:04 <b_jonas> The renamings cause some confusion when the older generation mentions the old street names and young people don't understand what they refer to.
23:08:29 <oerjan> he fell out of favor in the fifties. it took a bit longer to change the name.
23:08:48 <b_jonas> Back in the 90s they handled it the sane way, by leaving the signs with the old street names up still readable, but crossed out. These days there's a new wave of more stupid renamings and they just change the signs overnight, which is much worse.
23:08:58 <b_jonas> Plus, they name everything of Széchenyi, which is boring.
23:09:32 <b_jonas> It's not that I don't like Széchenyi or anything, but if you name everything the same, that's bad.
23:09:43 <b_jonas> Plus, I'd like something finally named of Erdős Pál. It's high time.
23:10:34 <boily> people would compete on how many cities separate you from the one named Erdős Pál.
23:10:47 <b_jonas> boily: no, not cities. renaming towns is silly, they should stop that.
23:10:58 <b_jonas> I'm talking about streets or institutions.
23:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a variant on Kleene Algebra that deals with translation rather than recognition?
23:12:27 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, my computer didn't log me out of IRC when it was closed for a long period of time
23:13:01 <b_jonas> So anyway, if you live in Budapest for long enough, you'll eventually learn some of the more important old names. Népköztársaság újta == Andrássy út; November 7. tér == Nyugati tér; there's much more but I forget
23:13:22 <b_jonas> There was something named about Lenin I think
23:13:29 <b_jonas> and something with Október in the name
23:13:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: in theory you can describe a transductor with a regex that distinguishes input and output letters
23:13:50 <oerjan> i don't know if that's common in practice
23:14:06 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But is there something nice and pretty? Perhaps one that is based on string substitutions rather than strings?
23:14:14 <oerjan> it's just something that seemed obvious to me when learning about transductors
23:14:55 <hppavilion[1]> Like, kleene algabra is +, x (for lack of a better symbol), and *, where + alternates strings, x concatenates them, and * repeats an arbitrary number of times
23:15:04 <b_jonas> ah yes, the internet says Lenin körút == Erzsébet körút + Teréz körút, but that probably doesn't come up much because people just call it Nagykörút anwyay
23:15:36 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm not sure if substitutions fit or not
23:15:47 <b_jonas> also Majakovszkij utca == Király utca; and I was wrong above, November 7. tér == Oktogon; Marx tér == Nyugati tér; that's confusing
23:15:57 <hppavilion[1]> But if we use trivial substitutions (that is, take a symbol and yield a different symbol) instead of trivial matches (take a symbol, fail if it doesn't equal to some internal constant symbol), then something probably happens
23:16:10 <b_jonas> and, ah yes, I should've known this one: Felszabadulás tér == Ferenciek tere; it's probably the one I've heared the most
23:16:51 <oerjan> hm apparently Nugatti is norwegian
23:16:59 <hppavilion[1]> I think it might be the same- x takes two symbols and replaces each based on an expression, + takes two symbols and expressions and tries applying one then the otehr
23:17:07 <oerjan> like what we have instead of Nutella, i guess
23:17:10 <hppavilion[1]> So all we need now is Trivial Substitution Notation
23:17:37 <b_jonas> There was also a Gorkij fasor, but that's not a big street
23:18:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: And that provides a basis for an s/// notation that /isn't/ a complete hack! Yay!
23:20:36 <b_jonas> Then there are 9 streets currently named of Damjanics within Budapest, although most of them are small, those all had a different name before 90 but I don't remember what
23:21:04 <b_jonas> one was close to where I grew up but I don't remember the old name
23:21:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: [a/b] is equivalent to [a/][/b] hth
23:21:48 <oerjan> basically, you _fundamentally_ only need an input and an output alphabet that are distinguished
23:22:12 <b_jonas> oerjan: Sweden has lots of streets named "Ny gatan", a really unimaginative name because "Ny" means new
23:22:14 <oerjan> assuming there are no backreferences.
23:22:44 <b_jonas> oerjan: maybe "Nygatan" yes
23:23:01 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, it isn't; [a/] matches a then appends nothing to the output, [/b] then matches the null beginning of the ny remaining input (so nothing) and adds b to the end of the output
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23:23:14 <olsner> another popular one is Storgatan (big street)
23:23:21 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The input and output are completely independent
23:23:33 <olsner> though mostly in smaller towns :P
23:23:56 <b_jonas> oerjan, olsner: what surprised me is that most of the street names in Sweden were so short
23:24:01 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: they're not independent because you cannot match both in sequence without doing the equivalent of [a/b]
23:24:02 <b_jonas> we have short ones too, but also normal length ones
23:24:16 <olsner> short? they're all normal length :P
23:24:23 <b_jonas> the most popular street names in Hungary are probably Kossuth Lajos utca and Kossuth utca
23:24:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But if you allow the input and output to not both be exactly one symbol, then it doesn't work
23:24:37 <b_jonas> although the quite short Fő utca is also very popular
23:26:22 <oerjan> the place i live in trondheim (although not the street i'm on) has heaps of streets named after fairy tale figures. and the place in my hometown where my father lives has many of the same names.
23:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> [a/b] != [a/][/b] because [a/][/b] matches an input that has an a (failing otherwise) and adds a b to the output (no matter what), whereas [a/b] matches an a and outputs a 'b'
23:26:54 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that in this case it won't add a b if a fails, but in the general case they can't be equivalent
23:27:00 <b_jonas> oerjan: interesting, I don't recall having such names here
23:27:19 <oerjan> and of course there are plenty of historical figures that also are used in almost every town, like Ibsen.
23:27:56 <b_jonas> Hungarian historical figures make up at least half of the street names here
23:28:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course, this doesn't allow matching groups, which makes it effectively useless
23:28:29 <b_jonas> including the ever popular Kossuth and Petőfi, the above mentioned Damjanics, but also lots of ones you've never heared about
23:28:50 <b_jonas> but there are lots of streets not named of people
23:28:56 <boily> do you guys have many "Church Street" or equivalent?
23:29:23 <oerjan> at least we don't put the same street name twice in a town, usually.
23:29:41 <b_jonas> boily: yes, there's at least one Templom tér yonder in 19
23:29:59 <boily> oerjan: come to Montréal! if two stretches of asphalt align, even if they aren't connected, they have the same name!
23:30:25 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, that would make navigation SO MUCH less confusing
23:30:58 <b_jonas> not having people tell you "meet at Corvin" and then either you have to ask for a clarification, or if you forget, guess from their age which Corvin they were likely thinking of
23:32:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i don't see how they're not equivalent.
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23:33:21 <b_jonas> my favourite version was "meet at Corvin, in the tram stop in the direction of Buda" (both directions of tram 6 eventually cross the Danube to go to Buda, and both Corvin are on the tram line 6)
23:34:15 <boily> Budapest is a Lost City.
23:34:45 <b_jonas> boily: only when it's women who can't navigate and can't explain what they want or what they see or where to go try to tell you something
23:34:58 <b_jonas> boily: real men can give unambiguous descriptions easily
23:35:17 <b_jonas> and use a map, and not search for "Budafoki út" in Pest
23:35:23 <oerjan> boily: Kirkeveien/Kirkegata are reasonably common i think. it's even used in the norwegian version of monopoly.
23:35:51 <boily> b_jonas: you sound like you speak from experience...
23:36:21 <b_jonas> oerjan: checking the map, it says there are lots of streets named "Templom" something in Budapest, not only the one in 19 I knew about
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23:37:09 <b_jonas> boily: I've been living here all my life, and still love the city, despite its faults
23:37:33 <b_jonas> although if the government manages to ruin Városliget like they're planning then I'll be VERY upset
23:38:11 <oerjan> <b_jonas> boily: real men can give unambiguous descriptions easily <-- they just can't ask for them?
23:39:03 <oerjan> maybe women are experts at making maps
23:39:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: I can try to ask, yes. In the case when there is a small finite list of possibilities like "at Corvin, in the tram stop towards Buda" then definitely.
23:39:18 <b_jonas> oerjan: but when it's crystal ball territory with no starting point, then no, I can't really ask
23:39:34 <oerjan> b_jonas: i'm just expanding your gender stereotypes hth
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23:39:49 <b_jonas> you know, it's like those newbies on IRC who ask like "my program doesn't work, and I didn't change anything" and you can't get anything specific from them
23:39:56 <oerjan> (rdococ got me a bit in the mood)
23:40:30 <shachaf> oerjan: would you say rdococ engendered the mood
23:40:53 <b_jonas> oerjan: maps are a trouble too. I like the maps published by Topográf, because they're more readable than the more popular alternatives, but then they stopped making it (probably around the time people started using all the fancy digital touchscreen GPS stuff instead of paper maps)
23:41:05 <b_jonas> so now there are no good enough maps of the town
23:41:36 * oerjan enswats shachaf -----###
23:41:46 <b_jonas> I dunno how that works at your place
23:42:05 <b_jonas> I know it costs a lot to produce good ones and keep them up to date
23:42:11 <oerjan> i dunno i haven't used one in years
23:42:22 <b_jonas> I wish they made a better one
23:42:45 <oerjan> last i looked for a place, i just used google maps.
23:42:58 <b_jonas> although I do have to admit the Cartographia map (which is the most popular brand, and already was when Topográf was still in business) has improved, it's not as horrible as it used to be
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23:43:32 <b_jonas> I should get myself a new map
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23:48:06 <oerjan> <mroman> then suddenly the speaker says "let me point out that this is not anti-jew propaganda" and then I'm like "uhm... why is he saying that" <-- aka "I'm not a racist but ..." which reminds me of http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/zelda/?1460930400&d=-1
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23:48:48 <oerjan> wait since when does mroman idle
23:49:10 <shachaf> i,i "I don't qualify my sentences, but..."
23:50:43 <oerjan> (btw that comic is not actually zelda. they're running two comics alternatively in the same spot and have confused themselves again.)
23:50:59 <oerjan> not that this probably matters unless you're swedish
23:54:20 <oerjan> of course the two comics have a lot in common, being extremely liberal-themed and made by swedish women
23:54:35 <oerjan> (from an american viewpoint, anyway)
23:54:54 <oerjan> (in sweden this is probably just the default :P)
23:57:27 <oerjan> . o O ( Ah am monologuing? -- Count Dookû, Darths & Droids )
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23:59:25 <oerjan> i don't think the number of listeners matters for monologuing