00:00:20 oerjan, are you from schweden? 00:00:40 ais here is a esoteric channell 00:00:51 or is this channel 00:00:55 `? welcome 00:00:56 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 00:00:57 only schall und rauch? 00:00:58 cripotos: norway actually 00:01:11 this channel is about esoteric programming languages. 00:01:11 dann sprichst du deutsch? 00:01:13 oerjan? 00:01:43 what is esoteric programming? 00:02:03 it's programming for which being useful isn't something you care about 00:02:05 a term of the informatic world? 00:02:25 yes, informatics/computer science 00:02:40 ich bin enttäuscht 00:02:44 alles n bschiss 00:02:46 ais523: hi did you see aaronson's blog post yet, you were indirectly mentioned 00:02:52 oerjan: yes 00:02:57 ihr seid gar keine esoteriker? 00:03:04 apparently this is the fourth time it's been mentioned in this channel (me mentioning it was the third) 00:03:13 cripotos: what tipped you off? 00:03:23 das ist n bschiss 00:03:29 oerjan: it's inspired a golfing competition in the comments; I approve 00:03:30 ais523: i _think_ i first neener neener 00:03:33 seid ihr informatikgurus? 00:03:33 *i was 00:03:59 ais523: yeah. i'm still reading those. 00:03:59 aaronson is a jüdischer name 00:04:11 the son of aaron 00:04:15 do you have ideas about good algorithms for a 2-symbol Turing machine that searches for Goldbach conjecture counterexamples (aiming to minimize the number of states)? 00:04:23 cripotos: yes, scott aaronson is pretty definitely jewish 00:04:25 I've been thinking about the problem myself but there are so many ways you could go 00:04:35 (also I feel that fractran would be a better language for this sort of thing than TMs) 00:04:35 oerjan klär mich auf 00:04:40 was für leute seid ihr? 00:04:47 informatiktypen? 00:05:07 yes, yes, computer science... 00:05:13 oooh man 00:05:14 mann 00:05:22 ich bin enttäuscht 00:05:31 cripotos: informatikgurus ist korrekt 00:05:49 und wieso nennt ihr euch esoteric? 00:05:50 for what it's worth, we're disappointet too 00:06:19 (uh, the finishing t is a nice touch... unintentional though) 00:06:56 because we're discussing programming languages that hardly anyone cares about 00:06:59 -!- idolbot has joined. 00:07:11 $bf 00:07:12 moon_: Error: "bf" is not a valid command. 00:07:15 ... 00:07:17 cripotos: wie Hackego hat gesagt, EFNet hat ein #esoteric, dass vielleicht dir mehr gefällt. 00:07:18 hi idolbot! 00:07:22 ihr könnt machen was ihr wollt 00:07:25 mir ist das wurst 00:07:27 * ais523 refuses to portmanteau that even though it's obvious 00:07:29 how you'd do it 00:07:31 *needs it to load the bf plugin, it ignores me* 00:07:33 ihr könnt hacken, programmieren 00:07:42 interessiert mich nen alten hut 00:07:50 ich suche urweibliche 00:07:55 übermütter 00:08:09 "overmother"? 00:08:15 ja 00:08:22 urweibliche sexbomben 00:08:28 mit hypnoaugen 00:08:35 is this some sort of insul that I don't understand because my German isn't good enough? 00:08:38 *insult 00:08:49 cripotos: versuch das #esoteric auf EFNet 00:08:55 no its a definition of a super woman 00:08:57 ais523: I've pondered it for 5 minutes, without concrete ideas. But there's no reason why it shouldn't be doable in perhaps 100 states. 00:09:07 int-e: I believe the current record's around 80 00:09:28 but it seems to be tedious 00:09:31 -!- idolbot has quit (Client Quit). 00:09:32 (the original aaronson article had a solution with something like 5000, which the comments correctly identified as excessive) 00:09:50 yeah, 4888 is the number in the paper 00:09:58 efnet 00:10:00 schlimm 00:10:13 dort treiben sich kriminelle um 00:11:28 ciao leute 00:11:30 machts gut 00:11:33 was auch immer 00:11:50 -!- cripotos has quit (Quit: Page closed). 00:13:21 am I evil for not replying in german? 00:13:28 int-e: yes hth 00:13:33 -!- idolbot has joined. 00:13:40 int-e: no hth 00:13:57 glad that's settled then 00:14:01 int-e: (NULL = NULL) hth 00:14:13 -!- Kaynato has joined. 00:14:21 Hey, let me tell y'all about Oracle. 00:14:27 int-e: if only because it hurts my brain to do it instead 00:14:59 * oerjan forgot too many words, not to mention genders 00:15:20 Here's an Oracle SQL problem: Given two character string values x and y, come up with a boolean expression which is true if the values are equal, false if they are not. 00:15:42 There are two good ways of doing this. 00:16:01 $brainfuck +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++o 00:16:01 moon_: Error: "brainfuck" is not a valid command. 00:16:02 Solution 1: (x IS NOT NULL AND y IS NOT NULL AND x = y) OR (x IS NULL AND y IS NULL) 00:16:22 Solution 2: (x || '.') = (y || '.') 00:17:53 and the punchline? 00:18:44 tswett: what does || do? defined-or? 00:18:58 so NULL equals '.' now? 00:20:12 $Brainfuck 00:20:13 moon_: Error: "Brainfuck" is not a valid command. 00:20:18 $help Brainfuck 00:20:18 moon_: Error: There is no command "brainfuck". 00:20:21 $help brainfuck 00:20:22 moon_: Error: There is no command "brainfuck". 00:20:25 $help bf 00:20:25 moon_: Error: There is no command "bf". 00:20:35 *is mad and not thinking* 00:20:41 ais523: string concatenation. 00:20:53 ah it doesn't. 00:21:25 $plugin help Brainfuck 00:21:26 moon_: Error: "plugin" is not a valid command. 00:21:28 doesn't NULL = NULL evaluate to NULL, though? and I'd expect concatenating to NULL to also give NULL 00:21:38 athough as it's oracle sql it might be weird in these respects 00:21:57 No, the concatenation operator treats NULL as the empty string. 00:22:05 This is because Oracle doesn't actually have the empty string. 00:22:28 are '' and NULL synonyms in string columns? 00:22:31 that seems very broken to me 00:22:40 They are synonyms, yes. 00:23:35 '' isn't the empty string, it's NULL. 00:23:41 so, say, '' = 'foo' evaluates to NULL? 00:23:56 this is PHP/JavaScript levels of broken :-) 00:24:52 oh great. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/203493/why-does-oracle-9i-treat-an-empty-string-as-null 00:25:25 It does, yes. 00:26:51 is this some sort of insul that I don't understand because my German isn't good enough? <-- i'm going to assume e was alluding to some kind of matriarchal esoteric fertility cult. 00:29:25 So, I have a question! 00:29:33 -!- boily has joined. 00:29:35 This semigroup presentation has undecidable equality: ac = ca; ad = da; bc = cb; bd = db; ce = eca; de = edb; cca = ccae 00:29:36 Why? 00:29:55 oerjan: yeah he was polite; the most impolite word was "b[e]schiss", something like a ripoff. 00:30:12 *is mad and not thinking* <-- bad combination. btw have you tried the /me irc command? 00:30:13 helloily 00:30:21 Notice that all rules preserve the subsequence which consists of only the "c"s and "d"s. 00:30:22 how was work 00:30:41 And "a" and "b" commute with "c" and "d". "e" doesn't commute with either. 00:31:23 oerjan: I also think you got the gist of what [s]he(oh the e was intentional) wrote there right... and it didn't make more sense in german either. 00:32:34 quinthellopia. braindrain. 00:32:42 @massages-loud 00:32:42 hppavilion[1] said 5h 12m 50s ago: Just break it if you want to know 00:32:46 oh 00:32:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:33:07 quintopia: how's the starbucksing? 00:33:32 april is over 00:33:32 Why? <-- wild guess would be "you can encode a TM in that" hth 00:33:39 today was walk far day 00:33:44 tnos 00:33:45 -!- idolbot has quit (Quit: Ctrl-C at console.). 00:34:08 tswellottnos. 00:34:27 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:34:40 lhoily (now i'm _really_ wondering if i've lost count) 00:34:47 `? red canada 00:35:01 red canada? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 00:35:19 ok, brainfuck might work no 00:35:26 -!- idolbot has joined. 00:35:30 $brainfuck 00:35:31 moon_: Error: "brainfuck" is not a valid command. 00:35:34 fuuuuuuu 00:36:54 moon_: WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER BF INTERPRETER IN THIS CHANNEL. HTH. 00:37:29 boily: HackEgo lacks an entry on the above 00:37:34 i get that, im trying to figure out the plugin frameork, then ill do something ne 00:37:35 `? brainfuck 00:37:38 brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array 00:37:41 moon_: Ah, OK 00:37:48 moon_: Why not write a ciol interpreter or something though? 00:37:49 HackEgo: :D 00:38:06 (what is integral again?) 00:38:19 Area under the curve? 00:38:26 tswett: I remember that 00:38:31 tswett: But what's the joke? 00:38:46 tswett: What is the domain of the function where the codomain is Terrible Esolangs used there? 00:38:51 `bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array 00:38:53 No output. 00:38:56 `` bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array 00:38:57 /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: mklang: command not found 00:39:02 Oh, right 00:39:04 `` bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" 00:39:07 No output. 00:39:07 quintopia: how's the starbucksing? <-- * sudden nostalgic flashback to seattle (not a starbucks, but a small coffee shop right by the university) as well as to when his stomach actually could drink mocha lattes... 00:39:12 Oh, right again 00:39:43 hppavilion[1]: I don't know what "integral of the family of terrible esolangs" could mean. 00:40:02 tswett: Does "family" have a mathematical definitication? 00:40:12 hppavilion[1]: hppavellon[1]. Canada doesn't exist, so it being red is preposterous hth 00:40:16 Sometimes. 00:40:21 Often, "family" just means "set". 00:40:24 oerjan: you seattled? 00:40:27 boily: Ah 00:40:36 Whoops 00:40:40 tswett* 00:40:47 Ah ah ah. 00:40:48 $reload 00:40:48 moon_: Error: You don't have the owner capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified. 00:40:49 tswett: Or type, I suppose 00:40:53 *sigh* 00:40:59 moon_: MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 00:41:03 i need to fix that, too 00:41:07 $whoami 00:41:07 hppavilion[1]: I don't recognize you. 00:41:11 $whoismoon_ 00:41:11 hppavilion[1]: Error: "whoismoon_" is not a valid command. 00:41:17 we have a new bot? 00:41:21 mhm 00:41:22 mine 00:41:26 boily: Yes 00:41:33 boily: But it doesn't do anything new, it seems 00:41:33 idolbot: fnord? 00:41:33 boily: Error: "fnord?" is not a valid command. 00:41:33 "Type" doesn't have a standard definition. 00:41:43 tswett: Um, type theory? 00:41:54 Yeah, but there's no one single standard type theory. 00:41:55 hppa, the bot itself is new, dumbo 00:41:58 boily: It ignores you if you enter too many incorrect commands 00:42:00 tswett: Oh, right 00:42:06 i removed that hppa 00:42:07 "Type" means "whatever 'type' means in the type theory you're using". 00:42:07 moon_: Well yeah 00:42:10 moon_: Oh, good 00:42:16 moon_: What do you plan to make it do? 00:42:22 well, really, set the limit absurdly high so nly a spambot can get that 00:42:28 moon_: Ah 00:42:50 moon_: I think spambots usually don't send 1000 mps 00:43:01 120 mps 00:43:08 moon_: Ah 00:43:12 120 mpm actually 00:43:23 no-one is gonna reach that without special care 00:43:27 -!- ybden has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:43:56 moon_: So what will the bot do? 00:44:03 moon_: Oooh! Add votey polls! 00:44:07 depends 00:44:10 maybe.. 00:44:32 i was thinking maybe something to keep us !bored when there is nothing to do lol 00:44:36 moon_: Wait, but then when it gets turned off we'll all be sad... 00:44:49 yea 00:44:53 i cant run it all night 00:47:05 -!- idolbot has quit (Quit: Ctrl-C at console.). 00:47:55 fungot: do you fnord, unless that weird uncommandable bot? 00:47:55 boily: out of the spread the wealth of power and the service of the appropriate. 332163 counterparty. nelson learned that the ect legal dept. of the possible use of inside of that spread leaves plenty of time you have questions. 00:48:00 s/unless/not like/ 00:49:14 -!- idolbot has joined. 00:49:19 plz allow me a bit of promotion - http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=576&p=30646#p30646 <-- congrats! 00:49:20 $unignore 00:49:20 moon_: Error: "unignore" is not a valid command. 00:49:36 $reload 00:49:37 moon_: Error: You don't have the owner capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified. 00:50:25 $help 00:50:25 moon_: (help [] []) -- This command gives a useful description of what does. is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin. 00:51:01 -!- idolbot has quit (Client Quit). 00:51:04 (what is integral again?) <-- in calculus, integral is the inverse operation of derivative, hth 00:51:28 -!- idolbot has joined. 00:51:30 $enable 00:51:31 moon_: Error: You don't have the owner capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified. 00:51:52 I should set up a VPS that I can use to give shell accounts to people. 00:52:12 shell accounts for what? 00:52:14 oerjan, bad paedagogy! 00:52:18 because that sounds nice 00:52:31 Linux shell accounts. For them to use for whatever they want, I guess. 00:52:40 do it :P 00:52:54 integral is the area under the curve! 00:53:02 i would donate if i could, cauz im lazy 00:53:18 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:53:46 oerjan: you seattled? <-- spring 1996 00:53:50 -!- idolbot has quit (Client Quit). 00:54:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:54:10 -!- idolbot has joined. 00:54:16 $reload 00:54:17 moon_: Error: You don't have the owner capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified. 00:54:18 Ah ah ah. <-- keeping count? 00:56:07 you know what 00:56:16 im going to just write one from scratch 00:56:54 im tired of setting up my plugins 00:57:14 There have got to be IRC libraries to use, right? 00:57:30 mhm 00:57:45 Ah ah ah. <-- keeping count? <-- obviously. 00:59:11 im definintly using a bit of ciol in it as well 00:59:25 (intepretation for custom commands) 01:02:05 `? flag of #esoteric 01:02:33 flag of #esoteric? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 01:02:35 `? #esoteric flag 01:02:38 #esoteric flag? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 01:02:51 `? flag 01:02:52 flag? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 01:03:01 `ls wisdom/*flag 01:03:05 ls: cannot access wisdom/*flag: No such file or directory 01:03:09 Wait 01:03:15 `` echo wisdom/*flag* 01:03:20 wisdom/disflagrate wisdom/flagpole 01:03:25 `? disflagrate 01:03:27 disflagrate v.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized. 01:03:34 `? szoup 01:03:38 A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit. 01:03:46 Of course. 01:04:03 `echo wisdom/*#esoteric* 01:04:05 wisdom/*#esoteric* 01:04:20 `` echo wisdom/*#esoteric* 01:04:22 wisdom/#esoteric 01:04:42 At first I wondered why it dropped the asterisks... 01:04:42 `? #esoteric 01:04:44 #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. 01:04:48 The answer is it didn't. 01:05:03 tswett: I remember defining the #esoteric flag 01:05:11 `` grep wisdom color 01:05:12 oerjan, bad paedagogy! <-- how are _you_ going to explain the `? brainfuck joke then? 01:05:13 grep: color: No such file or directory 01:05:22 * hppavilion[1] goes and learns grep 01:05:45 @tell Phantom_Hoover oerjan, bad paedagogy! <-- how are _you_ going to explain the `? brainfuck joke then? 01:05:45 Consider it noted. 01:05:50 `` grep -r color wisdom 01:05:56 tswett: Thank you 01:06:01 wisdom/oregon:Oregon is the home of Oregano. Gregor used to take care of the color scheme, but then he left. \ wisdom/bleen:bleen is the color of the ocean and the trees \ wisdom/piet:Piet is a really colorful programming language. \ wisdom/cube:Cubes come in all sizes, colors and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube doe 01:06:25 `? cube 01:06:29 `` grep -rl color wisdom 01:06:31 how was the color done? 01:06:32 Cubes come in all sizes, colors and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube does not speak, however. 01:06:33 wisdom/oregon \ wisdom/bleen \ wisdom/piet \ wisdom/cube \ wisdom/blæg \ wisdom/octarine 01:06:47 `? wisdom/blæg 01:06:48 wisdom/blæg? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 01:06:52 Wait 01:06:59 `? blæg 01:07:01 moon_: mIRC color codes. Most IRC clients treat byte 3 as indicating color stuff. 01:07:01 blaeg is a color that cannot exist under the current understanding of physics. It is used on the #esoteric flag, along with ultraviolet and whatever is convenient. It is a nullary color, meaning that it can be mixed with itself to produce the primary colors. 01:08:11 `? ciol 01:08:13 ciol ? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 01:09:00 tswett: byte 3? Huh? 01:09:08 `learn ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy collegues by making a programming lanugage that has insults as commands 01:09:11 A byte is a number from 0 to 255. 01:09:16 Learned 'ciol': ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy collegues by making a programming lanugage that has insults as commands 01:09:17 3 is one of those numbers. 01:09:29 tswett: Ooooh 01:09:43 tswett: So a 0x03 followed by a modifier changes color? 01:09:59 Byte 3 is also known as 0x03, "ETX", and the Ctrl-C byte. 01:10:03 tswett: See "byte 3" sounds like "the third byte in a bytearray" 01:10:08 Yeah. A 0x03 followed by one or two decimal digits. 01:10:20 Optionally followed by a comma and one or two more decimal digits. 01:10:38 12 01:10:47 also 01:10:53 read the ciol one :P 01:11:06 `sedlast s/colleg/colleag/ 01:11:15 *actually true* 01:11:21 No output. 01:11:39 wait, is that right 01:11:47 TIL there's something somewhere in Ubuntu that puts stuff you rm in the trash, even if you `rm -rf`ed it. 01:11:47 `? ciol 01:11:49 ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming lanugage that has insults as commands 01:11:52 yep 01:12:00 boily: ...wut 01:12:04 `sedlast s/$/./ 01:12:07 hppavilion[1]: yup. wut. 01:12:12 No output. 01:12:22 suddenly freed >100 GB on my hard drive. 01:12:28 `sedlast s/./$/ 01:12:36 hppavilion[1]: what 01:12:40 ... 01:12:40 boily: WUT. 01:12:41 How does that work? Is it just a different version of "rm"? Or does it give things a different libc or whatever? 01:12:54 `? ciol 01:12:55 ciol is a language designed by moon_, it started as a scheme to annoy colleagues by making a programming lanugage that has insults as commands. 01:13:01 `cat bin/sedlast 01:13:02 sed -i "$1" "$(lastfiles)" 01:13:07 Oh, I thought hppavilion[1] had actually done it. 01:13:10 `cat bin/lastfiles 01:13:11 hg log -l 1 --template "{files}\n" 01:13:21 tswett: No, you will notice that HackEgo didn't say anything 01:13:34 tswett: And that the message has a leeding space 01:13:35 And there's a space at the beginning of your message. 01:13:49 Did you mean: And that the message has a bleeding space 01:14:02 how would i color something red then? 01:14:15 uknow, in chat 01:14:25 moon_: With your IMAGINATION 01:14:29 ... 01:14:30 `rainbow 01:14:31 hppavilion[1]: or maybe I'm confused. do not heed anything I write tonight as untarnished truth. 01:14:38 With byte 3 followed by "04". 01:14:41 `mkx bin/sedlast files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files//"; cat "$files" 01:14:45 oops 01:14:47 ff 01:14:58 how would i give that to hackego? 01:14:58 Hey, I wonder if that one command is still there... 01:15:01 `loudly This one. 01:15:32 No output. 01:15:33 someone froze ego 01:15:35 bin/sedlast files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files 01:15:36 This one. 01:15:43 moon_: hppavilion[1] i think 01:15:51 This one. 01:15:52 `grepgrep 01:15:53 huh 01:15:54 /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: grepgrep: not found 01:15:56 `run echo -e '\000304Will this be red?' 01:15:57 Will this be red? 01:15:57 `mkx bin/sedlast//files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files//"; cat "$files" 01:15:59 `kgrep 01:16:00 bin/sedlast 01:16:01 /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: kgrep: not found 01:16:28 I'm kind of surprised that nobody's deleted the `loudly command. 01:16:32 `loudly IT'S SO ANNOYING. 01:16:34 IT'S SO ANNOYING. 01:16:39 new rule: if you make new commands after someone has made an error, except to correct that error, you get banned 01:16:56 iGrep 01:17:10 `loudly Also it cuts off whatever it is that you're saying after a relatively small number of characters, since the color codes for this are pretty verbose and IRC doesn't have that long a limit. 01:17:12 Also it cuts off whatever it is that you're sayin, 01:17:16 because reverting things is really annoying when two people are doing things simultaneously 01:17:26 `cat bin/sedlast 01:17:27 files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files//"; cat "$files" 01:17:32 `lastfiles 01:17:34 erro 01:17:50