00:00:37 <wob_jonas> hpp: Star Wars is Disney's now, they take all Star Wars videos down
00:01:07 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Yeah, but at least someone would have protested and won I would think
00:01:29 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure they would in this case
00:02:22 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: You can't really get anything Star Wars out of people moving things with the force in rapid succession
00:02:40 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Hell, Disney probably would've done it by now
00:02:56 <wob_jonas> a 2005 ruling on Replenish says "Auras can only be placed on permanents that were on the battlefield before this effect started to resolve. You can't put an enchantment onto the battlefield with Replenish and put an Aura that is also entering the battlefield onto one of those enchantments."
00:03:07 <wob_jonas> you have to determine what to enchant before you put them to the battlefield
00:03:31 <ais523> I assume that ruling would also apply to other similar effects
00:03:40 <wob_jonas> ok, then I think Simic Guildmage might be the only way
00:04:01 <wob_jonas> there are some other cards that reattach auras, but they don't work in this case
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00:07:05 <wob_jonas> what happens if I have two Power Taints enchanting each other, both with a liquimetal coating, there's a Teferi's Realm in play, and I choose to exile all artifacts?
00:07:30 <wob_jonas> as in, what happens in the next untap step when the two taints try to unphase
00:09:38 <shachaf> `card-by-name Teferi's REalm
00:09:40 <HackEgo> Teferi's Realm \ 1UU \ World Enchantment \ At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player chooses artifact, creature, land, or non-Aura enchantment. All nontoken permanents of that type phase out. (While they're phased out, they're treated as though they don't exist. Each one phases in before its controller untaps during his or her next unta
00:10:37 <zzo38> Rule 702.25g says: If an object would simultaneously phase out directly and indirectly, it just phases out indirectly.
00:10:37 <wob_jonas> Also, same question if only one of the Taints has a coating
00:10:58 <zzo38> I suppose they remain phased out forever?
00:11:02 <HackEgo> Power Taint \ 1U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant enchantment \ At the beginning of the upkeep of enchanted enchantment's controller, that player loses 2 life unless he or she pays {2}. \ Cycling {2} ({2}, Discard this card: Draw a card.) \ US-C
00:11:54 <ais523> zzo38: agreed, that rule seems to imply that they'd phase out permanently
00:12:35 * oerjan thinks boily forgot to chicken out.
00:12:37 <wob_jonas> but don't indirectly phased out permanents still phase in?
00:12:55 <wob_jonas> the phasing rules are complicated and I never even had the illusion of understanding them
00:13:28 <zzo38> Indirectly phased out permanents phase in along with the permanent it is attached to (rule 702.25f).
00:14:01 <wob_jonas> ok, so what if only one of the Taints was coated? then one phases out directly and one indirectly
00:14:19 <wob_jonas> or is the indirect phasing recursive so both phase out indirectly again?
00:16:35 <wob_jonas> "702.25f When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing out “indirectly.” An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won’t phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it’s att
00:17:25 <wob_jonas> "702.25h An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out directly will phase in attached to the object or player it was attached to when it phased out, if that object is still in the same zone or that player is still in the game. If not, that Aura, Equipment, or Fortification phases in unattached. ..."
00:17:49 <zzo38> It seem to me it would be recursive, so both phase out indirectly, but you should ask Wizards of the Coast anyways, I think
00:21:11 <wob_jonas> zzo38: by the way, have you tried to make a card that directly affects a phased out permanent specifically?
00:22:05 <zzo38> I do not remember but you can look up everything I have published
00:26:02 <boily> hellørjan. phone and IRC don't mix hth
00:29:39 <quintopia> havent seen you in here last few evenings
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00:33:48 <wob_jonas> Ok, crazy idea. You have in play a Graf Rats, and also a Chittering Host (melded card) that's cytoshaped to Midnight Scavengers. Graf Rats's ability triggers, so you exile both Graf Rats and Chittering Host. Then you're supposed to check the two exiled cards if they're a melded pair, but it turns out you have three exiled cards. Do you meld anythin
00:34:07 <wob_jonas> (Graf Rats and Midnight Scavengers meld to Chittering Host.)
00:35:08 <wob_jonas> You could even find four cards in exile this way, and they could even be two Hanweir Battlements and two Hanweir Garrison.
00:36:46 <wob_jonas> hmm, or you could have a manifested face down Hanweir Garrison cytoshaped to a Graf Rats, and a manifested face down Hanweir Battlements cytoshaped to Midnight Scavengers.
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00:37:36 <wob_jonas> (from rel notes) "712.2. One card in each meld pair has an ability that exiles both that object and its counterpart and melds them. To meld the two cards in a meld pair, put them onto the battlefield with their back faces up and combined (see rule 701.34, “Meld”). The resulting permanent is a single object represented by two cards."
00:38:12 <boily> quintopia: quinthellopia! social life happened.
00:38:28 <wob_jonas> "701.34b Only two cards belonging to the same meld pair can be melded. Tokens, cards that aren’t meld cards, or meld cards that don’t form a meld pair can’t be melded."
00:39:22 <wob_jonas> "12.4c If an effect can find the new object that a melded permanent becomes as it leaves the battlefield, it finds both cards. (See rule 400.7.) If that effect causes actions to be taken upon those cards, those actions are taken upon each of them."
00:39:22 <quintopia> boily: there's no time for that. it's sgdq week AND camp nanowrimo!
00:39:40 <quintopia> boily: in your opinion, which is the most famous real chimp in history?
00:39:42 <wob_jonas> quintopia: isn't nanowrimo in november?
00:40:45 <wob_jonas> "701.34a Meld is a keyword action that appears in an ability on one card in a meld pair. (...) To meld the two cards in a meld pair, put them onto the battlefield with their back faces up and combined. The resulting permanent is a single object represented by two cards."
00:41:10 <wob_jonas> so you'd have to perform that on each of the exiled cards that came from exiling the melded permanent
00:45:41 <wob_jonas> (and if there's no valid object to enchant, then you attach the aura to Gnome Ann)
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00:49:06 <boily> oerjan: I know! lots of sudden boardgaming!
00:49:09 <boily> oerjan: I... guess so?
00:51:31 <oerjan> i think that's rather misinterpreted hth
00:52:36 <oerjan> hm oh there was a chimp called lucy
00:52:46 <oerjan> stupid non-injective naming
00:54:50 <quintopia> was there more than one damous non-human lucy?
00:55:07 <oerjan> quintopia: yes, although the other was prehistoric hth
00:55:35 <quintopia> eh, i'm willing to grant australopithecus provisional humanity :P
00:55:53 <oerjan> lucy the chimp seemed to have a sad ending
00:56:17 <oerjan> in norway, the most famous chimpanzee would be julius
00:57:50 <oerjan> he seems to be getting along better these days.
01:00:15 <pikhq> quintopia: Considering that some people advocate for considering chimps "human" that's not completely crazy to grant.
01:00:22 * boily supports chimps and other fuzzy animals
01:01:35 <quintopia> pikhq: yeah it seems kind of arbitrary to say "you're not a human unless you understand the concept of a teacher intentionally helping you"
01:11:08 <quintopia> vr game idea: you and a friend stand on a giant room-sized NES controller, jumping onto the buttons to play SMB1
01:14:40 <boily> a giant NES controller, downtown on Ste-Catherine, with classic NES games projected on a building wall. that'd fit with the art installations.
01:18:30 <boily> build it out of maple, commission an art collective for a post-modern paintjob, hook a 'duino on the innards, rasp pi for the games, and bob's your uncle.
01:23:10 <quintopia> bill's his name actually, but close enough
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01:27:28 <oerjan> quintopia: obviously, if you did this he would change his name to bob
01:30:05 <quintopia> boily: we can just buy and disassemble a steel dance pad, save half the work of making the buttons durable to people jumping on them
01:32:26 <boily> but but... maple...
01:32:35 * boily has a sentimental attachment towards maple
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01:43:03 <ratpuke> I'm here to be educated thoroughly. What is haskell used for
01:43:49 <quintopia> boily: time to increment your relcome counter
01:43:56 <boily> quintopia: just watch me :D
01:44:08 <HackEgo> ratpuke: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:44:26 <ais523> it's used for experimenting with functional programming features, mostly
01:44:33 <ratpuke> To bad its default black and white on my end
01:49:06 <ais523> it's not too bad for writing compilers and similar tree-walking programs
01:49:34 <ais523> also it's good for testing theories in computer science empirically
01:49:50 <ais523> via coding them in Haskell directly
01:51:26 <boily> it's very nice for parsing data and mashing it in mysterious ways.
01:53:20 <quintopia> boily: only an hour now until the SMM blind kaizo team relay race starts
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01:55:33 <ais523> quintopia: less than an hour, it's going to start very soon
01:55:35 <ais523> they'rr already in setup
01:55:49 <ais523> try refreshing the schedule, it changes over time as runs go ahead and/or behind
01:59:32 <boily> quintopia: good walk! don't get lost! don't get bitten by any wandering cryptid!
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02:03:35 <oerjan> those wereticks can be nasty
02:05:17 <boily> I only fear "mouches à chevreuils". those bastards can make you bleed even if they bite through your clothes.
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02:06:18 <HackEgo> Thanks, wikipédia. Thikipédia.
02:07:25 <oerjan> now you're pulling my klegg
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02:08:46 <oerjan> oh i'm confusing with knott
02:09:03 * oerjan was wondering why he'd thought they were tiny
02:09:14 * boily swats oerjan --------###
02:09:19 <lambdabot> http://theneverhood.wikia.com/wiki/Klogg
02:09:19 <lambdabot> Title: Klogg - The Neverhood Wiki - Wikia
02:09:34 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUgrkdzO6Ao
02:09:51 <shachaf> looks like an upstanding citizen
02:11:06 <oerjan> en:biting midges, it seems
02:11:14 <boily> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KjOXd7luraM/hqdefault.jpg ← an example of what they can do. caveat "not my legs" emptor.
02:15:50 <oerjan> caveat not clicking hth
02:36:15 <boily> time to go understand my mattress.
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02:38:51 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
02:39:06 <oerjan> doesn't that TIMEFORMAT line need an export?
02:39:34 <oerjan> or hm maybe it's only for use in an internal bash command?
02:39:50 <HackEgo> real: 0m0.003s, user: 0m0.000s, sys: 0m0.000s \ hi
02:39:59 <HackEgo> \ real0m0.001s \ user0m0.000s \ sys0m0.000s \ hi
02:40:08 <pikhq> It would need an export, time is a bash internal.
02:41:17 <pikhq> (this is not true of all shells though; other shells will end up executing the time binary in the PATH)
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02:52:15 * oerjan gives today's mezzacotta full score on basis of the middle panel's absurdity.
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03:18:24 <zzo38> One of the new Magic: the Gathering cards I made up will temporarily replace the rules text of one card with that of another card.
03:19:38 <ais523> zzo38: spell, permanent, or card in hand?
03:19:55 <ais523> I'd recommend doing it on permanents, otherwise overload/arcane could give problems
03:20:41 <zzo38> It does only affect permanents and can take the text only from permanent cards.
03:21:19 <zzo38> {X1}, {T}, Discard a permanent card with converted mana cost X: Target permanent's rules text becomes the discarded card's rules text until end of turn. Monstrosity 1. Scry 1.
03:24:10 <ais523> what's with the monstrosity?
03:24:10 <pikhq> I suspect that still makes the rules sad, but there's at least a chance that might work. Maybe.
03:24:36 <ais523> it doesn't prevent you using the ability multiple times
03:24:41 <zzo38> It is part of another card, which is why the monstrosity is there; it is just instead of a separate ability
03:25:01 <zzo38> (Same thing with scry)
03:25:20 <ais523> that's a complex card!
03:26:07 <zzo38> You can look up that (and other) card in my collection of made up cards
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04:33:35 <wanderlust> I'm looking for a language were the future code changes what the previous code should be.
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04:35:07 <oerjan> (which is alas vaporware)
04:35:11 -!- Melvar has quit (Disconnected by services).
04:35:13 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar.
04:35:23 <shachaf> zzo38: Is vaporware Feather?
04:35:35 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know
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04:35:42 <oerjan> i think you're confusing zzo38 and ais523
04:35:51 <oerjan> also possibly Feather and TwoDucks
04:36:14 <oerjan> well that was a timeout.
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04:36:38 <shachaf> oerjan: vaporware is a common acquaintance of zzo38's and mine
04:37:23 <oerjan> TwoDucks is also time traveling, but i'm not sure it's self modifying.
04:38:31 <shachaf> `learn Father is an ancestor of Feather.
04:39:36 <ais523> feather can retroactively modify both data and code
04:39:58 <ais523> although to retroactively modify code, you need to go back to a point in time at which it was data
04:40:03 <alercah> ais523: I thought it could also retroactively modify the compiler?
04:40:41 <ais523> but the interpreter is being interpreted by another Feather interpreter
04:41:06 <ais523> so you basically just have to find the data source that the outer interpreter is using for the source of the inner interpreter and change that
04:41:31 <ais523> this being Feather, there is probably some way to change the entire infinite stack of compilers stretching back forever; I'd be surprised if there wasn't
04:41:32 <wanderlust> \me is impressed with the recommendation
04:42:07 <ais523> that said, I get confused when trying to work out how the whole thing works
04:42:16 <ais523> perhaps unsurprisingly
04:42:21 <ais523> *infinite stack of interpreters
04:45:35 <\oren\> I'm trying to generate my font and FontForge keeps crashing
04:46:33 <\oren\> maybe this time it won't crash
04:47:40 <\oren\> I guess I ought to work faster on my bdf2ttf program
04:48:25 <alercah> ais523: what happens if two of them us the same data source? or is that prohibited by the theoretical model?
04:48:49 <ais523> alercah: most outright attempts to create a paradox end up leading to an infinite loop in Feather's model
04:53:38 <ais523> the time travel model is actually quite simple, it's just call/cc
05:00:55 <\oren\> Ok, this time it isn't crashing, it's just taking forever to vectorize the font.
05:07:10 <\oren\> http://en.rocketnews24.com/2016/07/08/i-hate-you-japans-anime-style-mobile-romance-game-starring-girls-who-will-never-ever-love-you/
05:07:41 <\oren\> dating sim: realism overhaul
05:08:44 <HackEgo> yeeeeeeeeesh//See yeeeeeeeesh.
05:08:59 <shachaf> See, this is why we need the jammed up rnooodl.
05:14:50 <HackEgo> 1/1:See yeeeeeeeeesh. \ See yeeeeeeeesh. \ See yeeeeeeesh. \ See yeeeeeesh. \ See yeeeeesh. \ See yeeeesh. \ See yeeesh. \ See yeesh.
05:17:38 <HackEgo> Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language
05:18:05 <shachaf> Are you sure that's not PERL?
05:18:08 <HackEgo> python = ProgrammingLanguage(attrs=[plattrs['WHITESPACE_SENSITIVE'], plattrs['INTERPRETED'], *plparadigms['IMPERATIVE', 'FUNCTIONAL']])
05:18:58 <HackEgo> (eq "lisp" (proglang-with '(use-lots ["(" ")"]) '(paradigm functional) '(notation-type prefix)))
05:19:00 <HackEgo> (eq "lisp" (proglang-with '(use-lots ["(" ")"]) '(paradigm functional) '(notation-type prefix)))
05:19:33 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
05:19:46 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 Bike FreeFull oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
05:20:21 <HackEgo> D is a letter in the alphabet! It's also the name of a programming language.
05:20:43 <HackEgo> A is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
05:21:08 <HackEgo> B is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're even worse than the BBC and drop strange letters altogether.
05:21:08 <HackEgo> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets and tiny elfs. Taneb invented it.
05:22:02 <shachaf> `slwd bbc//s# and#,#;s#\.#, and villages in Norway#
05:22:05 <HackEgo> wisdom/bbc//The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation, and villages in Norway Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs. Taneb invented it.
05:22:42 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
05:22:44 <shachaf> `slwd bbc//s# and#,#;s#s\.#s, and villages in Norway#
05:22:49 <HackEgo> wisdom/bbc//The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, and villages in Norway Taneb invented it.
05:23:10 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
05:23:31 <shachaf> `slwd bbc//s# and#,#;s#s\.#s, and villages in Norway.#
05:23:34 <HackEgo> wisdom/bbc//The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, and villages in Norway. Taneb invented it.
05:24:07 <HackEgo> ` \ ^ \ \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ * \ \ \ ☃ \ ⊥ \ ꙮ \ ⌨ \ \ \ 🐐 \ 🐚 \ \ 0 \ 1 \ 9 \ a \ å \ Å \ b \ c \ d \ i \ k \ l \ o \ ø \ Ø \ ß \ u \ y \ э \ Э \ Я
05:24:38 <HackEgo> Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go.
05:25:24 <shachaf> Hmm, how can I look up arbitrary Unicode wisdoms when I only have an ASCII keyboard?
05:25:40 <shachaf> `? should support punycode or something.
05:25:55 <\oren\> shachaf: use tmux to copypaste
05:25:58 <HackEgo> Я//Я is the 8th letter of the hsilgnE alphabet
05:26:19 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl;
05:27:30 <oerjan> `` cd wisdom; ls ? >../tmp/w; ls ? | diff - ../tmp/w
05:27:43 <oerjan> `` cd wisdom; ls ? >../tmp/w; ls ? | lowercase | diff - ../tmp/w
05:27:46 <HackEgo> 24c24 \ < å \ --- \ > Å \ 33c33 \ < ø \ --- \ > Ø \ 38,39c38,39 \ < э \ < я \ --- \ > Э \ > Я
05:28:13 <shachaf> For consistency, `? should be renamed to `cwt
05:28:31 <HackEgo> <izabera> ` echo "sed \'s/./\\l&/g;s/\xc3\x98/\xc3\xb8/g\'" > bin/lowercase \ <izabera> ` echo "sed \'s/./\\l&/g\'" > bin/lowercase \ <izabera> ` echo sed \'s/./\\l&/g\' > bin/lowercase \ <izabera> ` echo tr A-Z\xc3\x98 a-z\xc3\xb8 > bin/lowercase \ <oerjan> ` sed -i "s!z!z | sed \'s/\xc3\x98/\xc3\xb8/g\'!" bin/lowercase \ <shachaf> revert \ <sh
05:28:39 <HackEgo> cat: : No such file or directory \ //
05:28:46 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/lowercase
05:29:24 <HackEgo> ⊥ is a bottom tack, useful for annoying teachers.
05:29:36 <shachaf> `mkx bin/howg//hoag "wisdom/$1"
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05:29:49 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 6185 bin/lowercase
05:30:09 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ tr A-Z a-z | sed 's/Ø/ø/g'
05:30:11 <HackEgo> L is far too short to be a village in Wales.
05:30:18 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 6185 bin/lowercase >bin/lowercase
05:30:50 <HackEgo> Я is the 8th letter of the hsilgnE alphabet
05:31:04 <oerjan> there you go. i knew izabera's changes would break stuff.
05:31:36 <oerjan> shachaf: are you confirming, or just pronouncing the letter aloud?
05:32:00 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
05:32:10 <shachaf> oerjan: What was that pun that you didn't get the other day?
05:32:53 <shachaf> I was going to explain it but I forgot.
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05:33:27 <shachaf> oerjan: Single-layer perceptron networks can't compute xor.
05:35:02 <oerjan> \oren\: you can try those that weren't working again now, i just fixed a recently introduced feature.
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05:37:28 <HackEgo> Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go.
05:37:35 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:37:45 <oerjan> shachaf: huh i suspected xor was involved.
05:38:07 <shachaf> oerjan: it was bound to happen hth
05:38:21 <oerjan> but i'm more familiar with circuit complexity than neural networks.
05:40:11 <\oren\> YAY the autotrace finished!
05:40:44 <shachaf> oerjan: but are you familiar with hugs
05:41:35 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
05:41:46 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
05:42:29 <oerjan> i used hugs for several years hth
05:43:08 <HackEgo> tdh is the past tense of a successful hth. hth.
05:43:20 <shachaf> twh is the subjunctive tense of a future hth
05:44:51 <\oren\> `le/rn hg/hg is dark alchemy used by oerjan to fix things. Like most alchemy, it involves drinking mercury.
05:45:19 <HackEgo> Your mysterious articled cackling zombie underlord kommisjonær emeritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
05:45:37 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#under#oever#
05:45:40 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious articled cackling zombie oeverlord kommisjonær emeritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
05:46:29 <HackEgo> `sled <filename>//<sed script>
05:46:45 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious articled cackling zombie øverlord kommisjonær emeritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
05:47:54 <oerjan> that's funny, i don't even know real hg.
05:49:19 <oerjan> `le/rn slwd/`slwd <wisdom name>//<sed script>
05:51:47 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key"; }
05:52:07 <shachaf> oerjan: i was going to do a clever `slwd ../bin/slwd thing
05:52:15 <shachaf> but then i didn't have one
05:55:58 <\oren\> argh why is fontforge getting so sloooooooow
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06:28:18 <\oren\> I uploadted the new version!
06:28:21 <\oren\> 悦悩惑惜惧惨惰愁愉愚慄慈慌慎慕慢慨慮慰慶憂憎憚憤憧憩憬憶憾懇懐懲懸
06:28:24 <\oren\> ⚝⚞⚟⚠⚡⚢⚣⚤⚥⚦⚧⚨⚩⚲⚳⚴⚵✍✎✐⤧⤨⤩⤪⤫⤬⤭⤮⤯⤰⤱⤲⤳⤸⤹⤺⤻⤼⤽⥂⥃⥄⥅⥆⥇⥊⥋⥌⥍⥎⥏
06:28:27 <\oren\> ⥐⥑⥒⥓⥔⥕⥖⥗⥘⥙⥚⥛⥜⥝⥞⥟⥠⥡⥢⥣⥤⥥⥦⥧⥨⥩⥪⥫⥬⥭⥮⥯⧨⧩⧪⧫⧬⧭⧮⧯⧰⧱⧲⧳㋐㋑㋒㋓㋔㋕㋖㋗㋘㋙㋚㋛㋜㋝㋞㋟
06:28:31 <\oren\> ㋠㋡㋢㋣㋤㋥㋦㋧㋨㋩㋪㋫㋬㋭㋮㋯㋰㋱㋲㋳㋴㋵㋶㋷㋸㋹㋺㋻㋼㋽㋾㍱㍲㍳㍴㍵㍶㍷㍸㍹㍺㍻㍼㍽㍾㎀㎁㎂㎃㎄㎅㎆㎇㎈㎉㎊㎋
06:29:01 <moonythedwarf> i ported my bot to discord and finally went to learning node.js
06:30:12 <\oren\> I have passed the 8000 character mark
06:31:33 <shachaf> \oren\: That sounds like quite a novel.
06:35:32 -!- moonythedwarf has changed nick to moon_.
06:43:01 <Sgeo> HAHAHAHA Elixir and Rust have warts that, if you squint, look similar
06:54:09 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Hmm, functions with optional arguments can't be captured as a function argument with optional arguments, just the different possible arities are each one possible function. Funnily, this reminds me of a Rust wart, you can have generic functions, but can't capture them as a value that takes generics.
06:55:08 * Sgeo curses HexChat copy behavior
06:55:15 <shachaf> Sgeo: When are you scheduled to get obsessed with Swift?
06:55:28 <Sgeo> <Havvy> Sgeo: Sure, but the Rust one will be fixed once HKT is ever implemented, and in Elixir, you don't want to store functions for very long, so you're probably not passing them to somebody who would want the optional argument behaviour.
06:56:15 <\oren\> ``once ... is ever'' interesting construction
06:56:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `once: not found
06:56:52 <\oren\> simultaniously implying soon and not soon
06:58:06 <shachaf> should've used `àwesome quoteś´
06:58:38 <shachaf> or perhaps ònce-awesome quoteś
06:58:52 <HackEgo> [U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT] [U+00E0 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH GRAVE]
07:03:02 <shachaf> \oren\: you've made a grave error
07:07:51 <Sgeo> shachaf, not sure. An interest in iOS would probably help.
07:08:05 <Sgeo> I briefly wondered about Objective-C but lost interest
07:08:35 <shachaf> And it has algebraic data types and everything you like.
07:08:58 <zzo38> Objective-C is a strict superset of C as far as I know, so any C code will also work in a Objective-C program.
07:09:18 <shachaf> C++ is a strict superset of a strict subset of C.
07:09:35 <shachaf> So any C code which is also C++ code is also C++ code.
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07:48:44 <\oren\> Hmm what should I add next?
08:26:14 <zzo38> I have a code if(rom_here-instruction_pos<17 && rom[instruction_pos]==(cell)0x8BBE+rom_here-instruction_pos) { but it says that "+rom_here-instruction_pos" is an invalid suffix for an integer constant. Adding a space before the plus sign works though.
08:27:06 <zzo38> Why does it do that?
08:27:26 <int-e> looks a bit like a float?
08:31:08 <hppavilion[1]> Someone needs to make Crime Statistics Bureau - San Francisco into a real TV show
08:31:23 <hppavilion[1]> (I'll wait for everyone to google that before I expand on the joke)
08:32:23 <hppavilion[1]> Also, the Dunning-Kruger effect should be renamed to the Trump effect
08:42:01 <int-e> zzo38: https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3885
08:44:33 <zzo38> O, so it is supposed to work like that.
08:46:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the meme version of the dunning-kruger effect is simply misinterpreted hth
08:46:45 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well, I went to Wikipedia and it agrees with what I thought it is
08:46:55 <hppavilion[1]> Just checked 538, and thank god, trump is unlikely to win
08:47:05 <zzo38> One of the bugs marked as a duplicate of that one looks like it is not a duplicate
08:47:15 <hppavilion[1]> At least it's a crazy person I slightly agree with
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08:50:49 <zzo38> Bug 11494 is not a duplicate of bug 3885.
08:55:14 <Vorpal> Hm is C integer division flooring or truncating? Or is it implementation defined?
08:56:29 <hppavilion[1]> I'm looking for an old news report about MLKj (preferably the first one about him on a national news station)
09:02:18 <moon_> Im most likely the most dead man on earth. Duckgoosecrashes the server hbot runs on
09:03:00 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], plz tell me that this plan is not as shitheaded as it sounds
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09:08:22 <Phantom_Hoover> it sounds like you're trying to troll videos of MLK with stupid comments about recent events
09:11:55 <Phantom_Hoover> and if that is what you're doing, well, i genuinely quite like you and i would be very disappointed to see you get sucked into destructive hatred
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09:36:41 <hppavilion[1]> Say what you like about Trump, but if he becomes president, there will be a HUGE boost to export
09:42:07 <int-e> Vorpal: IIRC it depends on the C version; in C11 / is defined to truncate towards zero; earlier versions only defined / for nonnegative numbers and made the behvior on negative numbers implementation-defined.
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09:47:35 <int-e> Hmm, s/C11/C99/, apparently. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3602827/what-is-the-behavior-of-integer-division-in-c/3602857#3602857
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10:07:27 <hppavilion[1]> http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/foreign-body-rectum notes that "fruits and vegetables" are a common examp;e
10:07:53 <hppavilion[1]> "fruits and vegetables", of course, links to http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/ss/slideshow-exotic-fruits
10:10:37 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: You should not go looking for recipes immediately after you have removed a foreign body from your rectum, especially if said foreign body is an ingredient in those recipes
10:13:11 <shachaf> I kind of don't get what you're doing in general, but listening to Phantom_Hoover is probably not a bad idea.
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10:49:23 <wob_jonas> What's this guy doing? Doesn't he know this is a speedrunning event? He's lost frames on level 2.
10:49:52 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, no, it's not about recent events. Exactly. I think.
10:50:01 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: It would be more of a joke about idiots on the internet
10:50:48 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: MLK was a cool guy, and I have nothing against him; he's just the first person that I thought of to use as a vessel for the joke (also, I'm probably not going to watch it otherwise)
10:51:01 <hppavilion[1]> AND it would probably be Fox News or something, so there's that
10:52:04 <hppavilion[1]> Though, now that I think about it, lots of people probably wouldn't get the joke
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11:09:33 <izabera> http://www.lulu.com/shop/brian-hall/beejs-guide-to-network-programming/paperback/product-18179133.html
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11:41:51 <hppavilion[1]> If it's possible to make 2.5D, is it possible to make 3.5D?
11:43:13 <gamemanj> it depends on how you define 2.5D...
11:43:56 <gamemanj> If you consider Doom a 2.5D engine, then really all "2.5D" means is "3D with geometry restrictions due to optimization". You could probably apply the same logic to higher dimensions.
11:53:19 <int-e> hmm, isn't I though 2.5D also used for parallax scrolling...
11:57:23 <gamemanj> it depends which meaning of 2.5D you're using, which makes things even more difficult...
12:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> 2.5D normally means 3D rendering but 2D player movement, ime?
12:04:34 <int-e> yay, yet another meaning
12:07:05 <Phantom_Hoover> well smash and doom are the things that come to mind for 2.5D for me
12:08:10 <izabera> game maker used to have 3d rendering and 2d player movements
12:08:57 <izabera> that was up to at least game maker 6, idk if it's real 3d now
12:09:09 <fizzie> The "Trials" series -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trials_(series) -- is I think sometimes called 2.5D as well.
12:09:55 <fizzie> It's (at least in the latest incarnations) very much a generic 3D renderer except the player character is restricted to a 2D "plane".
12:10:19 <fizzie> Well, it's more of a twisting, turning track thing.
12:12:31 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: thinking about it the idea that parallax scrolling is 2.5D may date back to before 3D rendering became ubiquitous.
12:14:57 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah i guess there's also the rendering term which is basically used for "rendering methods which try to look 3D without making everything into a polygon mesh"
12:17:44 <int-e> Hmm, I was excited to hear about a successor to "Limbo" which imho is a great (though creepy) 2D jump&run puzzle... but all the screenshots look 3D... less excited now.
12:17:45 <fizzie> Like raytracing with CSG? ;)
12:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> we're talking about games fizzie, the only* games that use raytracing use it as prerendered images
12:19:58 <Phantom_Hoover> in some sense that's what e.g. mario kart on the snes did
12:20:18 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_Wars:_Ray_Traced ... oh Larrabee ... hahahaha
12:21:30 <fizzie> Realtime raytracing gets done a lot in demoscene stuff.
12:21:31 <int-e> (the reason I'm laughing isn't that I think that the idea of having many general purpose CPUs on a chip isn't appealing... it's the idea that anybody would care about those CPUs being x86 compatible)
12:22:00 <fizzie> I'm sure a lot of the time there's still polygon meshes involved, though.
12:22:46 <fizzie> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLR4knU0rvM probably doesn't, but...
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12:25:40 <gamemanj> spheres, the second easiest object to raytrace in the universe (the truly easiest is the diamond, because then you can use manhattan distance, and working out the normal is just 3 comparisions and a table)
12:26:00 <int-e> hmm, is there a worthy modern successor to povray? I'm looking for some sort of declarative, CSG based, language for describing scenes, plus a reasonable renderer. (and I'm in principle happy to still use povray for that)
12:26:50 <gamemanj> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but then you have to work out the normal
12:27:23 <gamemanj> while with a sphere you can just normalize the position you hit at
12:27:39 <fizzie> I haven't heard of any "spiritual successors" of POV-Ray.
12:27:51 <int-e> reflective spheres are very common in raytracing because they are really easy to trace and really hard to render convincingly with other techniques.
12:29:33 <fizzie> (The original is still sort-of alive, though, I understand.)
12:30:08 <int-e> for example, it's still packaged for debian
12:31:04 <fizzie> https://github.com/POV-Ray/povray/graphs/commit-activity ... well. The numbers are non-zero, that's something.
12:32:25 <FireFly> refractive spheres too, for that matter
12:32:47 <int-e> perhaps it just fills this particular niche well enough that nobody wants to create a successor.
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14:34:18 <izabera> "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is the day they make a vacuum cleaner." -- Oscar Wilde
14:39:09 <gamemanj> that's an interesting design for a vaccum cleaner... blowing the dust away
14:46:22 <gamemanj> I think that "ContextBot" thing XKCD suggested might be good right now...
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15:26:26 <HackEgo> associativity//Associativity means that h(th) = (ht)h, if you're flexible about it.
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16:21:18 <fizzie> Oh, I'd completely forgotten about SGDQ going on. :/
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16:23:14 <fizzie> Have I missed anything great?
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16:27:57 <gamemanj> just a great <noun/person> entering the <name/cheat sequence, company> code to begin the <verb/attack> of the <house/place> at the end of world <number>
16:28:24 <FireFly> fizzie: I guess it depends on what you're interested in
16:28:52 <fizzie> Glitchy is generally fun.
16:29:32 <FireFly> The DK64 run involved a detour into multiplayer and glitching out of multiplayer to keep pickups in the single-player game
16:53:17 <lambdabot> CYUL 091523Z CCA 10009KT 15SM -SHRA BKN015 OVC020 19/16 A2978 RMK SC5SC3 CVCTV CLD EMBD SLP085 DENSITY ALT 700FT
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17:04:40 <int-e> 'CVCTV CLD - Convective Cloud'
17:05:05 <int-e> but afaiui, anything following RMK is not fully standardized anyway
17:06:38 <int-e> 6 more blocks before, well, perhaps nothing much happens.
17:08:27 <int-e> I've thought about this some more and I figure it depends on how many of the bitcoin miners are opportunistic... selling off their hard earned bitcoins for the market price immediately
17:08:53 <int-e> all those can just stop mining when the reward is halved and wait the transition out
17:12:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, they put up the runs on youtube afterwards. In fact they are not very far behind. Somewhere between 1 and 2 days behind
17:12:37 <Vorpal> FireFly, also I believe the TAS segment hasn
17:13:18 <Vorpal> This evening or tonight, right?
17:15:15 <FireFly> 10:44 PM TASBot plays Super Mario Land 2
17:15:45 <FireFly> The schedule isn't entirely fixed since it depends on earlier games, but about then
17:16:13 <Vorpal> FireFly, I need to fix my sleep schedule for tomorrow though, so I probably won't be able to watch all of it
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17:17:05 <Vorpal> I'll watch the VOD afterwards
17:17:15 <FireFly> Ooh, Mario Maker is up on youtube now
17:17:33 <Vorpal> Oh? That might be more interesting than Diablo 2 indeed
17:18:10 <FireFly> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJV86j1-DuE
17:18:28 <FireFly> Yeah, the Mario Maker segment at AGDQ was great at least
17:18:33 <Vorpal> yeah I pulled it up on my tablet next to me already... Seems to be a lot of setup in it though....
17:19:44 <Vorpal> FireFly, two weird things here. All the other videos so far cut out the setup time. Also there is no pause music?
17:20:22 <Vorpal> Or I guess they don't want DMCA
17:21:58 <FireFly> I've had videos before with setup time..
17:22:13 <FireFly> does youtube allow you to change the video after upload? maybe they upload it first and cut it later on
17:26:00 <FireFly> Seems to start about 22 minutes in
17:26:57 <Vorpal> FireFly, these levels are super-trolly
17:27:30 <Vorpal> FireFly, did you watch the Bethesda block? That was super-cool.
17:28:12 <FireFly> I didn't.. I guess I should watch that after this
17:28:24 <Vorpal> FireFly, Arena - Skyrim, all of them
17:28:34 <Vorpal> And all of them are just hilarious.
17:31:34 <FireFly> re. super trolly.. well they're pro players who regularly play Kaizo-style levels, so hey
17:31:55 <Vorpal> I just didn't find it fun to watch.
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17:32:23 <FireFly> though granted this first stage seems a bit over-the-top
17:32:40 <Vorpal> FireFly, I think I prefer the single-person showing off their skill style runs in general. (Though the Tetris segment was pretty cool)
17:44:03 <int-e> fun, a bitcoin block with a single transaction.
17:45:27 <int-e> (apparently they (blockchain.info) count the reward payment as a transaction)
17:49:17 <int-e> So apparently they've made it.
17:53:18 <int-e> and their software has a bug... https://blockchain.info/block/000000000000000004db7eebf333b81f2529835102f7f7e86eca889287148885 lists the reward as 16.666BTC; dividing by 3 instead of 4... funny.
17:54:21 <izabera> time to exploit it and make a shitload of money
17:54:38 <int-e> I suspect it's just the website.
17:54:56 <izabera> then it's time to... exploit it and make a little amount of money?
17:55:20 <int-e> I thought it was time to notice it and mock the programmer
17:55:45 <izabera> that's why you're poor, you're not in the right mindset
17:56:14 <gamemanj> "network propagation" is messed up
17:56:30 <int-e> izabera: you may be right
17:57:47 <int-e> izabera: anyway, here's what I say: That programmer must have saved their company millions of CPU cycles!
17:59:25 <Vorpal> Something broken with bitcoin again?
18:00:27 <int-e> okay, somebody else tries to get some laughs out of it. https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/4s14gu/no_blockchaininfo_its_not_12_14_16/
18:00:57 <int-e> Vorpal: nope, everything is going as designed... reward is halving every 210k blocks, and they just made it to 420k.
18:01:57 <int-e> but the last time bitcoins were virtually worthless, so this time is a bit more interesting. impossible to predict though.
18:07:16 <int-e> The next difficulty adjustment is 1344 blocks away. *hmm*
18:07:58 <Vorpal> int-e, so how many days?
18:08:11 <int-e> well, normally 144 blocks per day
18:09:32 <int-e> but to with the reward halfed they may want to drop the difficulty in half which means they'd have to drag the ~10 days out to ~25?
18:10:12 <int-e> but that would require collusion... it's all so utterly unpredictable.
18:10:59 <Vorpal> Oh I see what you mean
18:11:34 <int-e> (the 25 number comes from the fact that the difficulty will be based on 2016 blocks, 1/3 of which have already been mined)
18:21:56 <izabera> best use of pov ray so far https://imgur.com/gallery/HtZAWdi
18:23:32 <gamemanj> so, basically, we live on discworld
18:24:43 <int-e> the moment of ridicule is over too...
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20:17:29 <Sgeo> Oh ais523 left
20:17:36 <Sgeo> I still haven't congratulated him :(
20:18:51 <shachaf> He just wasn't around at the time.
20:31:52 <\oren\> the ttf format for contours is so annoying
20:32:52 <\oren\> I'm trying to make a program for converting bdf to ttf but it is annoying me
20:36:38 <\oren\> basically, you have an array of x coordinates, an array of y coordinates, and an array of flags.
20:38:06 <\oren\> the array of flags has one entry for each point, which determines whther the x and y coordinates are each 16 bit or 8 bit. which means that the x coordinates can't be indexed, and neither can the y coordinates, without iterating through the falgs?
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20:45:16 <gamemanj> the solution, presumably, is "why are you trying to iterate through the flags"
20:45:25 <gamemanj> you only need to write a file, not read it
20:45:53 <gamemanj> (trying to read a font file is insanity anyway because, well, you also have to deal with so much internationalization madness)
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21:04:43 <\oren\> gamemanj: what internationalization?
21:05:07 <gamemanj> actually arranging the letters that you read from the font into something useful?
21:05:56 <\oren\> I have a bunch of prgrams already that manipulate ttf files, but none thta actually read or write contour data yet
21:06:39 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/allchars.htm is made by reading the character map data from the ttf file
21:08:13 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/ttfinvread.htm
21:12:07 <ais523> as usual, I have some idea of what's coming, and yet it's going to impress me /anyway/
21:13:04 <quintopia> i am purposely keeping myself in the dark regarding specifics
21:13:59 <ais523> shachaf: SGDQ is a yearly speedrunning showcase for charity (there's two a year, the other is called AGDQ); tasblock is a section dedicated to games being spedrun via robots/programmable controllrs
21:16:01 <quintopia> is speedrun not already a past participle?
21:17:15 <quintopia> im surprised the room isnt more full. it was packed for the smm race
21:19:55 <fizzie> Ooh, Super Mario Land 2.
21:19:59 <fizzie> I played a lot of that.
21:26:50 <quintopia> i didnt but it looks cool. is wario the boss?
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21:30:03 <fizzie> Wonder if my saves are still there; I don't know what sort of non-volatile storage Game Boy carts have.
21:30:58 <\oren\> they have battery-powered RAM I thing
21:31:18 <\oren\> so eventually the battery runs out and you have to replace it
21:32:05 <fizzie> I would guess my save's probably some 20 years old now.
21:32:34 <ais523> quintopia: that's the game that invented wario
21:34:56 <zzo38> You can back up the save file in your computer if you have the proper equipment to do so, so that if the battery is dead, you can still restore the save game file. (If you back up the ROM data too, then you can also play the game on your computer too.)
21:40:26 <\oren\> Well I have now sucessfully automated the process of finding stray pixels
21:44:27 <zzo38> I would have want to have a separate file format for glyphs and for metrics, so that you can use the proper glyph format depending on the device while common metrics formats can be in use. This format for metrics that I think of it assumes 32-bit characters, with no other assumptions made about the character set (such as which ones are control characters and so on). Any features relevant to typesetting other than the glyphs themself are programmed
21:44:56 <\oren\> still unalbe to generate a ttf file worth a damn but hey, at least this is prgress
21:47:38 <zzo38> (Such as: ligatures, kerning, mapping multiple codepoints to one glyph, multiple glyphs to one codepoint, character spacing, hanging punctuation, word spacing, text direction, variation selectors, controls to override text direction and other things, boundary characters, metadata, etc)
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21:53:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, the TAS segment is ongoing now
21:55:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, okay, just thought since you said you forgot about SGDQ previously
21:56:02 <quintopia> ais523: was it everything you hoped it would be
21:56:15 <ais523> quintopia: the block hasn't finished much yet
21:56:27 <fizzie> Yeah, and I also forgot about the TASBot block during the last few hours -- fortunately someone said something.
21:56:29 <ais523> SML2 was a bit more elaborate than I expected, that was fun to see
21:56:42 <ais523> VVVVVV was pretty much what I expected and I was commentating it on the official IRC channel (#sdamarathon on Quakenet)
21:56:54 <Vorpal> ais523, I like the "console verification" on PC
21:57:04 <ais523> the really fun stuff should be later in the block though :-)
21:57:31 <Vorpal> And seeing VVVVVV was really cool. I tried playing that some years ago. It is quite difficult even non-speedrunning
21:57:35 <Vorpal> I never finished the game
21:57:37 <quintopia> theres only one more run on the schddule
21:57:42 <ais523> I've completed it it 100%, although not in no deaths mode
21:57:48 <ais523> I've got through the first level in no deaths mode though before now
21:58:05 <quintopia> Vorpal: ive been told the difficulty is way overhyped
21:58:06 <Vorpal> quintopia, ? I know there was some donation incentives related to TAS met
21:58:12 <fizzie> I've finished VVVVVV in the "so many deaths" mode.
21:58:23 <fizzie> That's the one where you keep dying over and over again.
21:58:27 <quintopia> Vorpal: they didnt put them on the schedule
21:58:33 <Vorpal> quintopia, depends on how good your timing skills are I guess
21:58:33 <gamemanj> fizzie: did this involve the use of Hourglass?
21:58:42 <Vorpal> quintopia, I have terrible timing skills.
21:58:57 <fizzie> Also I'm just the worst in Gravitron.
21:59:03 <Vorpal> I mostly play turn based games thus. I'm reasonable at those generally
21:59:07 <ais523> fizzie: I suck at Gravitron too :-(
21:59:16 <quintopia> i think two of the runs weve already seen were incentives i think
21:59:30 <ais523> quintopia: the glitched-any% runs were incentives
21:59:38 <ais523> they make good incentives because they're so short they don't disturb the schedule much
22:00:02 <quintopia> ya. tends to be how incentives work
22:00:06 <fizzie> Cropping the screen took longer than the run.
22:00:28 <ais523> fizzie: that reminds me of my NetHack fastest death run, it had already game-overed before the intro subtitles had finished
22:00:31 <Vorpal> ais523, pretty sure there was some incentive that was longer earlier though
22:00:37 <quintopia> nah. they had it cropped by the time the credits came
22:00:44 <ais523> so instead of "this is a tool-assisted speedrun" the official encode was written in the past tense
22:01:08 <pikhq> That's pretty grand.
22:01:25 <Vorpal> ais523, what is the speed run record for nethack? (either TAS or real)
22:01:42 <quintopia> i didnt know there was a fastest death category...
22:01:54 <ais523> quintopia: there isn't, it got rejected; it was an april 1 joke
22:01:55 <pikhq> I think ais523 invented it.
22:02:30 <ais523> Vorpal: in terms of clock time, 1:03; in terms of turncount, 2130 with bones stuffing, 2251 no bones
22:02:50 <quintopia> i love the lights in the nes controllers
22:03:01 <Vorpal> ais523, bone stuffing is preparing an advantageous bone file?
22:03:02 <ais523> the NES visualisation boards, that is
22:03:19 <ais523> intentionally gathering all the resources you need, suiciding the character, and hoping to find the bones with the next one
22:03:44 <Vorpal> ais523, hm, is the gathering of resources included in the run as well then?
22:03:56 <ais523> that's why it's a separate category, it's more of a newgame+
22:04:20 <Vorpal> Anyway, 1:03, that would be doable as a segment in a future *GDQ
22:04:26 <gamemanj> in which case, why not just write the bones file manually
22:04:38 <ais523> Vorpal: it relied on a lot of luck
22:04:51 <ais523> top players don't require luck to win sort-of quickly, but the fastest runs require a ton of luck just ot go fast
22:05:00 <Vorpal> ais523, so what is an average speed run?
22:05:02 <ais523> I'd say 3:00 would be a good estimate for a GDQ
22:05:19 <ais523> and ofc it's crazy risky
22:05:41 <Vorpal> Can you glitch nethack though? Or is it too robust?
22:05:49 <fizzie> They have a 4:05 estimate for the Final Fantasy VI coming up.
22:05:53 <quintopia> i love the dude who is drumming all the smb themes on his leg
22:06:03 <gamemanj> it's had years and years of development... I wouldn't doubt it's robust...
22:06:11 <gamemanj> then again, you could say that of many buggy things
22:06:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, a bit more well known of a game though
22:06:51 <ais523> Vorpal: it can be glitched
22:07:03 <ais523> there's a dangling pointer glitch that's possible very early
22:07:20 <Vorpal> That sounds crashy rather than go-fast
22:07:24 <ais523> and if you only want a crash, start with a Healer or Tourist, and as soon as the game starts, type d4294967296$d4294967296$ (requires a 32-bit computer)
22:07:27 <ais523> and it divides by zero
22:07:42 <Vorpal> ais523, so a glitched any% run might be slightly faster?
22:07:52 <ais523> Vorpal: the dangling pointer glitch basically lets you edit memory arbitrarily
22:07:55 <pikhq> Hmm. Does a glitch count for a TAS if the TASer is also a developer of the game and intentionally put the glitch in? :P
22:07:57 <gamemanj> ...you have got to be kidding me
22:08:03 <ais523> gamemanj: I can do that too, but haven't found a way to exploit it into anything other than a crash yet
22:08:43 <gamemanj> pikhq: *1 hour ago, commit by ais523: preparations* diff: if (name[0] == '@') win_game();
22:08:49 <quintopia> i hope the runs end at the same time
22:08:59 <ais523> gamemanj: I wasn't on the devteam when I was working on this stuff
22:09:08 <ais523> and in fact, TASes are done on 3.4.3 for this reason
22:09:12 <Vorpal> ais523, what on earth are those "runner" names now?
22:09:13 <pikhq> quintopia: If it's the set of runs I'm thinking of, they're pretty close.
22:10:14 <Vorpal> Also what is "lost levels"?
22:10:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: The game releases as "Super Mario Bros 2" in Japan.
22:12:58 <Vorpal> hm it doesn't *look* like the same inputs for all of them. Or they are possibly not perfectly in sync?
22:13:32 <ais523> they're desynced a little I think
22:13:45 <ais523> you can see that when one game goes to the left, the others all have to do that too to compensate
22:14:07 <Vorpal> Think it is the lost levels one that is desynced
22:14:19 <ais523> that makes sense, it's on a famicom
22:14:24 <ais523> which may have a different framerate
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22:15:25 <Vorpal> Yeah other ones are desynced too
22:17:05 <Vorpal> ais523, also the routing for this must have been a nightmare. And require a very special kind of mind.
22:18:44 <gamemanj> "routing"? also, how exactly are they trying to "sync" multiple games...?
22:18:50 <ais523> gamemanj: same inputs for every game
22:19:03 <ais523> and "routing" = working out which levels you'll play and which routes you'll use through them
22:19:15 <pikhq> The Famicom *ought* to have the same framerate, at least nominally...
22:19:41 <fizzie> They said the lost levels took longer to load than the rest.
22:19:47 <ais523> gamemanj: it's not as hard as it seems if you ever try it on a couple of games yourself
22:20:00 <fizzie> (While explaining the desync thing a moment ago.)
22:20:08 <Vorpal> ais523, although this time with routing I would also include figuring out when to press left so it doesn't mess up the other games. Or I don't know a better way to describe it anyway
22:20:17 <pikhq> Oh *right*, SMB2 was a Famicom Disk System game.
22:20:37 <ais523> they didn't advertise that
22:20:42 <ais523> because they weren't sure they'd be able to find a working Famicom
22:21:01 <pikhq> Hrm, it's not that hard to obtain one.
22:21:04 <Vorpal> ais523, EU had Famicom rather than NES too right?
22:21:06 <pikhq> A working FDS is hard though.
22:21:14 <ais523> Vorpal: no idea, I wasn't paying attention to games back then
22:21:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, EU had two NES releases.
22:21:27 <gamemanj> so, they found a working Famicom, did something rather butcher-y to it to make it accept the same inputs as a bunch of NESes at the same time...
22:21:55 <pikhq> gamemanj: It's not that hard -- the Famicom is electrically nearly identical to an NES.
22:22:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, What about the controller connector? Does it differ?
22:22:31 <ais523> it's not really butchery, they just plugged the controller in through the controller port
22:22:32 <quintopia> hmm they used an emulator for sml2...how did they do that legally?
22:22:48 <Vorpal> quintopia, the gameboy one? They explained that
22:22:49 <pikhq> It does differ for the original Famicom, but not for the AV Famicom.
22:22:57 <Vorpal> That sadly they did not manage to get the hardware working
22:23:02 <ais523> if you own the cartridge and dump it yourself, it's probably legal in the US at least, although I'm not sure though
22:23:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: There was a "Mattel version" and "NES version" of the NES released in Europe. Games for one were not compatible with games for the other.
22:23:39 <pikhq> ais523: It would be.
22:23:46 <Vorpal> quintopia, also all these runs were likely run on simulators first.
22:24:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, how stupid. What was the difference?
22:24:11 <pikhq> ais523: Backup copies of software are *explicitly* named as a legal process in US copyright law.
22:24:30 <quintopia> Vorpal: nintendo only cares about videos of emulated games...
22:24:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: Lockout chips and distributer.
22:24:32 <ais523> ooh, I forgot it'd count as a backup
22:26:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: In most of Europe Nintendo was the distributor, in the UK, Italy and Australia Mattel was *initially*, but they basically fucked around and didn't bother doing much with it so Nintendo took over as a distributer.
22:26:51 <pikhq> The "NES Version" was distributed by Nintendo.
22:27:37 <Vorpal> quintopia, well "race"
22:34:33 <Vorpal> ais523, really? That was it for TAS? How boring
22:34:53 <ais523> Vorpal: you don't think instantly completing SMB3 is interesting?
22:35:08 <Vorpal> ais523, sure, but I think "pokemon plays twitch" was cooler
22:35:12 <ais523> the crazy stuff with editing new games into existing games is reserved for the winter marathons
22:35:15 <Vorpal> As was mario maker in whatever other mario it was
22:35:23 <ais523> because it takes so much work it can only be done once a year
22:35:33 <quintopia> its not as interesting as the brain age tas or the pokemon plays twitch tas but its pretty cool
22:35:35 <Vorpal> So that is in January right?
22:35:59 <Vorpal> quintopia, oh yeah that brain age one too
22:37:00 <quintopia> no love for ff6. (i never finished it myself)
22:37:14 <Vorpal> quintopia, I think it is pretty good. But it is not TAS :P
22:37:41 <Vorpal> I prefer single runs to races
22:38:39 <Vorpal> sounds good, as long as it isn't a race
22:39:06 <Vorpal> well, I'll go to sleep before the end of it
22:39:17 <quintopia> ill probs skip it, come back for the metroid race
22:42:59 <Vorpal> ais523, I would love seeing the TASbot going for more modern games. Why not hook up to a N64 controller or such
22:43:41 <Vorpal> Newer than that might be harder
22:44:00 <ais523> Vorpal: it's done Mario Kart 64 in the past
22:44:08 <ais523> might want to try finding that on youtube
22:44:28 <Vorpal> yeah sounds interesting
22:50:26 <int-e> You must be kidding me... xine_setenv("DVDCSS_RAW_DEVICE", "", 1); ... no wonder it's trying to open an empty file.
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22:58:18 <int-e> though I guess it is the semantics of that setenv that were changed at some point.
23:19:38 <int-e> actually it's libdvdcss that changed.
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