00:07:31 shachaf: do you have the slanted apostrophes keymapped or something? 00:08:27 beware of the børg <-- resistænce is futile. yøu will be åssimilæted. 00:09:24 quintopia: maybe he's using an apple product and he can't _avoid_ making them 00:09:35 oerjan: wat 00:09:49 -!- tromp_ has joined. 00:09:50 is that really a thing 00:10:13 didn't you see the complaint about getting smart quotes when cutting and pasting JSON. 00:10:33 quintopia: well, in spirit of exaggeration, at least. 00:11:01 no 00:11:10 (or wasn't that on this channel? i think it was here, but i could be confusing with reddit.) 00:11:30 true this channel is like...identical to reddit eh 00:12:04 quintopia: it was \oren\ two days ago. 00:12:29 11:59:35 <\oren\> We had problems recently with spamert quotation marks showing up in JSON 00:12:32 11:59:52 <\oren\> because apple are idiots 00:12:35 12:00:29 <\oren\> who subsitute quotes with smart quotes when you copypaste text from one window to anohter 00:12:44 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:13:22 quintopia: i've not seen that much MtG discussion on reddit so clearly you are speaking nonsense hth 00:13:23 -!- augur has joined. 00:13:23 quintopia: it's called a backtick hth 00:14:27 -!- oerjan has set topic: The intradisciplinary hub of solidity matrices and esoteric magic card design and deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf. 00:14:44 now much more accurate. 00:15:16 oerjan: you can tell when i'm being sarcastic when what i'm saying sounds like nonsense hth 00:15:39 * oerjan vaguely suspects the topic may have said something like that before. 00:15:49 shachaf: one of them is. do you call the other one a "forward tick"? 00:15:50 quintopia: hey it didn't seem like _total_ nonsense. 00:16:08 oerjan: i also sometimes flag sarcasm with "eh" 00:16:10 quintopia: Oh, the other one. 00:16:21 `icode ´ 00:16:39 quintopia: i just thought you'd been conversing too much with canadians. 00:17:20 oerjan: not enough conversing with canadians, unfortunately. perhaps i shall move to canada to increase the quantity of canadian conversation? 00:17:22 [U+00B4 ACUTE ACCENT] 00:17:23 quintopia: anyway it was the kind of comment that could have been on reddit. 00:17:41 fair enough 00:17:52 quintopia: yes, but that may not always work, see `? oren 00:17:57 `? oren 00:17:58 quintopia: I just have a cute accent. 00:18:05 oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a. 00:18:37 shachaf: not as cute as pikhcute 00:18:38 shachaf: do you actually 00:18:55 oerjan: Hmm, how can I tell? 00:19:17 shachaf: record yourself. send it to oerjan. i'll accept his judgment. 00:19:23 you probably cannot. this needs a native american english speaker. 00:19:33 Well, some people in this channel have heard my accent. 00:19:43 * oerjan noticed half way through that "english speaker" was not redundant. 00:19:44 I'm not sure what makes an accent "cute" though. 00:19:59 I guess you're saying mine isn't. 00:20:06 oerjan: native americans did not traditionally speak english hth. (their english is also not exceptional or exceptionable.) 00:21:01 * oerjan sicks a purple people eater on quintopia 00:21:03 *sics 00:21:24 sicks [sic] 00:21:31 (why do you think they're purple?) 00:21:49 Don't sic oerjan's spelling. 00:22:24 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:22:33 can i sick it? 00:23:07 can i sick [sic] it? 00:23:10 sic transit gloria mundi 00:23:59 ...now i want to find a story with a character called gloria mundi who dies in the end 00:24:14 quintopia: i think that pun has been made. 00:24:24 oerjan: in full-length story form? 00:24:47 i wouldn't be surprised, but i want to read it myself 00:24:55 no but apparently as an album https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_Transit_Gloria_Mundi 00:25:53 ideally it would be a story where *no one* comments on the fact that gloria mundi is passing away, everyone is just appropriately sad. bonus points if it is *actually* sad 00:27:22 'A New York Daily News story about the 1980 state transit bailout was published under the headline "Sick Transit's Glorious Monday."' 00:29:56 ....now that is a glorious pun 00:30:01 -!- vifino has joined. 00:30:04 whatever happened to the NYDN i wonder 00:30:13 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:30:21 -!- tromp_ has joined. 00:33:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:35:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:36:24 -!- vifino has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:37:15 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:37:46 -!- spiette has joined. 00:38:03 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:38:29 -!- vifino has joined. 00:51:18 I have designed some Magic: the Gathering cards too though 00:52:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:56:52 zzo38: did you do the art? 00:57:33 No, just the text and name. In some cases there is favortext and in some cases there is suggestions for art, though. 00:58:23 favortext? 00:58:33 you're doing us a big favor, writing that 00:59:10 zzo38: have you ever tried to do the art yourself? 00:59:13 or any art? 01:05:35 -!- augur has joined. 01:13:23 No I have not done 01:14:11 But it is OK if other people want to make art, or even other version of favour texts, to write comment on my file. 01:21:30 -!- augur_ has joined. 01:21:34 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:38:47 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:40:16 -!- augur has joined. 02:03:38 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 02:20:27 oerjan: do you endorse the views of the other #esoteric 02:24:42 Maybe there are more than one views so you have to depend what views? 02:25:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:31:27 -!- augur has joined. 02:33:24 shachaf: i still have not checked it out hth 02:34:19 although i suspect i would only endorse a fragment of them. 02:40:19 -!- kuroro has joined. 02:42:12 -!- kuroro_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:01:05 [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47345&oldid=47193 * 24.242.95.85 * (+4) /* Factorial */ 03:01:05 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:03:50 -!- augur has joined. 03:08:06 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:08:15 [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47346&oldid=47345 * 24.242.95.85 * (-4) /* Factorial */ 03:14:03 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:17:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:18:06 -!- augur has joined. 03:19:23 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting). 03:28:40 [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47347&oldid=47333 * Darkrifts * (+18) /* Sample programs */ 03:29:32 [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47348&oldid=47347 * Darkrifts * (+103) 03:31:09 -!- FreeFull has joined. 03:32:33 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:36:42 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:39:15 If you know what such views would be, say so in order to answer such questions more satisfactorily. 03:39:46 -!- tromp_ has joined. 03:40:08 zzo38: Have you invented a better query language than SQL? 03:43:05 whats wrong with set-builder notation as a query language? 03:43:41 It's limited. 03:50:01 shachaf: No I have not done, but I think SQL is working OK. But I have invented extensions to SQL which have not been implemented as far as I know, such as extensions to access RDF data, as well as some other things. 03:52:37 Some features I wanted for SQL have to do with SQLite APIs and not with the SQL code itself; some of these have been implemented but not all. For example, I have more suggestions for features for virtual tables, such as the ability of the module to deal with LIMIT and OFFSET clauses, and the ability of the module to do batch updates and batch deletions. 03:52:54 Cale: If an inner join is a pullback, what are all the other kinds of joins? 03:55:31 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:01:14 -!- tromp_ has joined. 04:02:51 There is now the ability for a SQLite virtual table module xBestIndex method to know which columns are used by a colUsed field, although this field includes even consumable uses, and I would rather that it omitted consumable uses; it would make more sense to me. If this were changed, then sqlite3_vtab_config() should be used to configure this, for purpose of backward compatibility. 04:07:13 Another enhancement would be to allow additional sqlite3_declare_vtab() calls, where the additional ones are CREATE INDEX instead of CREATE TABLE statements. A partial index and index on expression are allowed (and in the case of virtual tables, a CREATE INDEX statement that doesn't use either of these features is probably useless, unless it contains COLLATE clauses too, so that you can create a virtual table that supports multiple collations.) 04:15:14 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 04:50:38 [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47349&oldid=47348 * Darkrifts * (+661) 04:54:08 `relcome incomprehensibly 04:54:51 incomprehensibly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 04:58:30 i have a feeling i've seen em before. 04:58:55 oerjan: maybe in _The Wizard of Oz_? 04:59:19 * oerjan swats shachaf -----### 05:00:34 It says "incomprehensibly" is Micah Johnston. 05:01:02 that is entirely irrelevant to the swatting hth 05:03:32 was em a witch? 05:03:56 quintopia: itym "was ey a witch" hth 05:04:02 hmm, no 05:04:06 quintopia: itym "was e a witch" hth 05:04:12 -!- kuroro_ has joined. 05:04:13 so many variants 05:04:26 quintopia: think more familiar hth 05:05:13 nope no idea 05:05:34 well, caun't help you any more. 05:05:48 fair enough 05:07:27 -!- kuroro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:08:26 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:10:16 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting). 05:14:59 Is who the witch? 05:16:05 Some Wiccans will call themself witches while others will not (I have heard from someone was with two other people one person introduced another as a witch but then she said she is not a witch she is Wiccan) 05:16:46 Does the number 11 on a rotary telephone in a hotel mean to access the outside line (which is 9 on modern telephones)? 05:17:07 zzo38; Rotary phones are obsolete. 05:18:24 That fails to answer the question. I mean at a time when the Hotel Pennsylvania had a rotary telephone. 05:18:58 Rotary phones have been obsolete my entire life. 05:19:00 Someone I asked about this picture suggested that is what 11 is for. 05:19:12 So they've been obsolete forever. 05:20:49 But there is a picture of the telephone dial on the latest issue of 2600. 05:21:21 The one that published your letter? 05:21:28 Yes 05:21:55 Can I look at it for free? 05:23:03 -!- kuroro has joined. 05:23:12 If you go to a book store that has it then you can look there I suppose. If you find it at the store and want to buy it, you have to pay $6.95 (United States) or $8.95 (Canadian), plus tax. 05:23:38 You may also find a picture of the covers in their webpages; I don't know, but you can try. 05:25:39 -!- kuroro_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:25:50 I don't actually know where this picture came from, but at least it appears to be from Hotel Pennsylvania; it has their telephone number in the middle. 05:27:10 (Their telephone number was (and still is) PENnsylvania 5000, I think in the 212 area code.) 05:27:55 My phone number is SHA-CHAF. 05:28:05 The area code isn't 212. 05:28:23 Do you know of anyone who has kept the same telephone number for longer than them? (This is a question that was asked in a letter in a previous issue.) 05:29:49 Define "obsolete". In much of the US, pulse dialing still works. 05:30:02 pikhq: I mean it in the Google sense, of course. 05:30:22 They are certainly obsolete in the Google sense. 05:30:41 I wish that one comic was public. 05:30:55 * pikhq nods 05:32:34 Pulse dialing ought to still work! A telephone is much simpler to design with pulse dialing (although some functions will not work, such as if you need an extension number, but this is OK); if you have switch, microphone, speaker, bell, it will be enough, I think. Even if it does not actually have a dial, it will work (I have tried it, and yes it does work even without a dial). 05:33:12 Pulse dialing is useful because you can do it yourself when necessary. 05:33:36 Yes 05:34:20 And, I have done it manually without the dial, actually. 05:36:14 zzo38: But I can't do it from my cell phone. 05:36:38 (Why? It is because I wanted to just see if it works; it did work.) 05:36:39 i,i i use two phones to talk to my broker: a sell phone and a buy phone 05:38:20 -!- centrinia has joined. 05:39:50 But the cellular system is entirely different anyways 05:40:22 Not entirely. 05:40:31 For example, it still uses phone numbers. 05:43:43 Sure, but it's not attempting to present the entire user interface over a low bandwidth analog line. 05:55:05 shachaf: Well, those involve NULL in various ways, don't they? 05:55:53 You can probably express them in ways involving 1+A and 1+B for the two tables 05:56:59 I guess you would want something like These. 05:57:43 But sum types are too good for SQL, anyway. 06:00:02 What happens when you do an SQL join and some fields are actually NULL? Probably a mess. 06:08:58 -!- tromp_ has joined. 06:13:45 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:21:48 -!- FreeFull has joined. 06:42:13 [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47350&oldid=47349 * Darkrifts * (+476) /* Sample programs */ 06:43:45 [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47351&oldid=47350 * Darkrifts * (-9) /* Stack control */ 06:44:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:45:30 -!- Terr has joined. 06:46:18 -!- Terr has changed nick to Darkrifts. 06:53:01 The document for SQLite says a join with null values is treated the same way as = operator with null values. 06:53:28 zzo38: Do you like pullbacks? 06:53:55 I don't know 06:54:46 Do you like pushouts? 06:55:21 I don't know 06:55:46 How about equalizers? 06:55:55 Do you like the great equalizer? 06:56:45 52*_*_2-@_3-@5+@ {} 06:56:48 -!- Darkrifts has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:57:15 -!- espes has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:57:26 I don't know 06:58:11 -!- espes has joined. 07:10:36 -!- tromp_ has joined. 07:12:25 Once on CBC Debaters they debate about use of American vs British spelling in Canada, but both are wrong because in Canada you have to use Canadian spelling, which uses some of each. Commands in a computer program should be American, although the documentation and GUI and comments can use any and does not even necessarily have to be English. 07:15:03 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:26:48 Hi everyone 07:26:57 I'm using voice recognition to type again 07:27:10 Because it worked so well last time 07:27:18 Actually it's going pretty well this time 07:27:21 -!- augur has joined. 07:27:31 I guess the technology has improved somewhat 07:31:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 07:55:36 I made up a program to filter text from stdin using a JavaScript program specified by command-line argument. This program is itself written in JavaScript. 07:58:58 Taneb: the vodka is good but the meat is rotten hth 08:13:07 * oerjan looks at freefall and thinks that it's sort of 18 years since his last chapter ended, too 08:13:53 hi Taneb 08:13:58 i can't hear you 08:14:06 so i don't think this voice recognition thing is working very well 08:14:15 * oerjan removes the banana from shachaf's ear 08:14:38 /mode +b ana 08:14:52 ban ananas 08:15:43 on pine of apple 08:16:58 and randall has a new hobby 08:18:19 -!- espes has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:19:14 -!- espes has joined. 08:25:57 -!- MoALTz has joined. 08:33:33 -!- espes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:34:11 -!- deltab has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:34:15 -!- espes has joined. 08:37:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:10:35 -!- tromp_ has joined. 09:15:03 I did eventually manage to solve the pentagon puzzle (on euclid), but my solution is long and ugly 09:15:03 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:15:15 I'll try to optimize the move count a bit, while keeping the same principle 09:15:26 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 09:47:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Stalactite). 09:57:09 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:04:42 -!- Boyss has joined. 10:05:27 Hello everyone 10:05:35 -!- rdococ has joined. 10:17:29 [wiki] [[Onov]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47352&oldid=47343 * 89.72.56.11 * (-35) Deleted elements from the code and corrected the list of steps. 10:22:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:28:13 huh, something came up at work that I just realised I know how to do in Haskell, but not OCaml 10:28:16 and it's pretty type-eso 10:28:33 on the offchance, anyone here that's able to help? 10:28:37 I have a program that (simplified) works like this: f (a1 : [`x] list) = let a2 = g a1 in let a3 = (h : [`x] list -> [`y] list) a2 in let (a4 : [`y] list) = g a3 in a4 10:28:45 but now I need to change g so that its argument is a [< `x | `y] list; can I do that whilst asserting that its return value and argument have the same type? 10:28:55 (the actual example is more complex but follows this general pattern) 10:31:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:32:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:35:13 What's that thing in Haskell? 10:35:32 I know so little OCaml that I'm not sure what you're doing, so I probably wouldn't be able to help. 10:36:22 shachaf: g :: (SomeTypeClass a => a -> a) 10:36:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:37:08 I don't follow the rest of the example. I guess I should look up OCaml syntax. 10:37:10 where the typeclass in question describes the existence of a function whose argument is a and whose return value is a list of an ADT whose constructors are X and Y 10:37:18 err, (SomeTypeClass a => [a] -> [a]) 10:37:23 forgot the list bit :-P 10:38:50 What's [`x], or [< `x | `y]? 10:39:28 [`x] is a variant type whose constructors are exactly `x (actually it has to be captialized, so `X) 10:40:12 [< `X | `Y] is a variant type whose constructors are some subset of `X and `Y (so there are four possible types there, False, [`X], [`Y], and [`X|`Y]) 10:41:20 likewise, [> `X | `Y] is a variant type whose constructors are some /superset/ of `X and `Y 10:42:34 Where `X and `Y are nullary constructors? 10:42:50 yes 10:43:22 you can give them arguments too, e.g. [`X of int], but I didn't because I was trying to come up with the simplest example that illustrated the problem 10:43:46 So [< `X | `Y] behaves like Bool for most purposes, for consumers? 10:44:45 shachaf: right 10:45:46 What's the difference between [`X | `Y] and [< `X | `Y]? 10:46:58 I think mathematically there isn't one 10:47:17 OCaml refuses to treat the types as the same, though, probably because the equivalence doesn't hold once you start giving arguments to the constructors 10:48:34 What's the difference between [< `X of int | `Y of bool] and [`X of int | `Y of bool]? 10:50:13 -!- ais523 has quit. 10:50:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:51:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:53:23 I'm missing something about variants but I'll find out what it is another time. 10:53:36 I don't quite see how that example would be translated to Haskell, though. 10:54:26 But I ought to have gone to sleep several hours ago. 10:54:45 night then 10:54:45 #ocaml seem to have found an answer anyway 10:55:03 What's the answer? 10:56:15 -!- ais523 has quit. 10:56:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:57:15 OK, I guess I see what I was missing about variants. 11:00:15 -!- Boyss has quit (Quit: Page closed). 11:01:57 shachaf: [< ] and [> ] denotes variance; a value with [< `X | `Y] would be able to be contracted to either [< `X] or [< `Y] when the subsequent check requires that, likewise [> `X | `Y] will allow the extension to, say, [> `X | `Y | `Z] 11:02:53 lifthrasiir: you've got that backwards 11:03:12 [< `X | `Y] can be expanded to [< `X | `Y | `Z] 11:03:20 I haven't used OCaml for ages, so I might be wrong :p 11:03:26 [> `X | `Y] can be contracted to [> `X] 11:03:29 So the type of `X is [> `X], for instance. 11:03:42 yes 11:04:00 and the type of function `X -> 0 is [< `X] -> int 11:04:03 But [`X | `Y] and [< `X | `Y] have the same number of inhabitants. 11:04:11 And you consume them essentially the same way. 11:04:26 ais523: ah I think I confused because function args should have the *inverted* variance to be checked 11:04:29 yeah 11:04:48 yes, OCaml is notorious for not automatically casting between types even when they're mathematically equivalent 11:05:03 my codebase has at least one example where I've written the identity function by writing out cases 11:05:17 in order to "launder" a variance 11:05:30 ais523: isn't that because they have a type system where there's no algorithm for determining if the types are equivalent? 11:05:31 because OCaml couldn't handle either just using the value directly, or a cast 11:05:37 in turn OCaml has a relatively straightforward type checker, I think 11:05:42 b_jonas: right, I strongly suspect that this is to do with keeping the type system decidable 11:06:59 ais523, congratulations on getting on the NetHack dev team! 11:07:05 Subtyping is complicated. 11:07:19 Sgeo: thanks 11:07:44 Sgeo: Have you congratulated the NetHack devteam for getting ais523? 11:08:19 `unidecode ← 11:08:57 [U+2190 LEFTWARDS ARROW] 11:09:06 `unicode DIAGONAL ARROW 11:09:33 English lacks good words for describing diagonals 11:09:54 ais523: You want e.g. "NORTH WEST ARROW" 11:10:03 people sometimes use compass directions or times on a 12 hour clock instead 11:10:05 right 11:10:23 `unicode SOUTH EAST ARROW 11:10:29 btw my connection is very laggy atm 11:10:32 No output. 11:10:37 ↘ 11:10:41 thanks HackEgo 11:11:01 You can also use times on a 24-hour clock. 11:11:16 You get more precision at a cost of confusing everyone you're talking to. 11:11:21 -!- tromp_ has joined. 11:11:47 you can use angles, but only if you've agreed a coordinate system in advance 11:11:53 ais523: yeah. here in Hungary we have the roads numbered so that 1..8 go roughly to the eight compass directions in order, and all roads have a number whose first digit is the octant, but nobody uses this to describe directions. 11:11:57 315° DEGREE ARROW 11:12:24 (funnily, there are also road numbers whose first digit is 9 and a road with number 0) 11:12:24 You can communicate a permutation through an ordering, but only if you've agreen on an ordering in advance. 11:12:29 b_jonas: the UK has a very similar system, with 9 numbered regions for describing zones 11:12:53 six of them radiate from London, three from Edinburgh 11:13:18 and the boundaries are the A1, the A3, the A4, the A5, the A6, the A7, the A8, the A9, and the River Thames between 1 and 2 11:13:35 What's common to all those things, anyway? 11:13:41 (the A1 goes to both London and Edinburgh, in order to reduce the number of boundary roads needed by 1) 11:13:55 "those things" = ? 11:13:56 It would be nice if road numbers, postal codes, and telephone codes would be numbered in some roughly corresponding way, but no such luck, they're three different systems. 11:13:56 Permutation and total (well?) ordering, linear map/matrix and basis, etc. 11:14:05 I'm slightly incoherent right now. 11:14:10 b_jonas: is the number 0 a circular road that goes through all eight zones, by any chance? 11:14:33 shachaf: I don't know but have a feeling that the answer has something to do with category theory 11:14:40 For a finite set of size n, there are n! permutations and n! total orders you can put on that set. 11:14:46 But there's no natural isomorphism between those two. 11:15:03 Yes, "naturality" is the first step in an answer. 11:15:29 But I bet they're more connected than that. 11:15:38 ais523: that's the plan, although it's not a full cycle (possibly not yet a full cycle), and it's actually called M0, and some numbers are used twice, once with M and once without, and M means a motorway/freeway and exactly that. 11:15:42 For example, maybe it's actually a well-ordering you need, not a total ordering. 11:15:54 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:16:03 "every set can be well-ordered" and "every vector space has a basis" are both equivalent to the axiom of choice. Maybe there's something there? 11:16:22 ok wait, the M prefix isn't quite an exact system, just rough 11:17:13 Of course, in finite cases you don't need the axiom of choice. 11:18:23 b_jonas: the UK road numbering system has a letter prefixed to the road number that indicates the class of road, and numbers are unique only within a class (actually there are a few accidental duplicate numbers but there aren't meant to be) 11:18:39 ais523: I see 11:19:00 -!- ais523 has quit. 11:19:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:19:20 b_jonas: the UK road numbering system has a letter prefixed to the road number that indicates the class of road, and numbers are unique only within a class (actually there are a few accidental duplicate numbers but there aren't meant to be) 11:19:39 although in the case of motorways, sometimes we suffix the M instead when talking about a motorway upgrade of or bypass to an A-road 11:20:00 the A1 and M1 are different roads; the A1(M) is a different road from the M1, and follows the path of the A1 11:20:09 but the A1(M) and M1 are both motorways (the A1 isn't) 11:20:30 Do other statements that are equivalent to the axiom of choice have to do with naturality? 11:24:28 -!- ais523 has quit. 11:25:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:25:58 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:28:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 11:29:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:32:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:33:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:35:39 -!- boily has joined. 11:51:01 -!- deltab has joined. 11:51:46 -!- ais523 has quit. 11:56:47 `wisdom 11:56:52 @massages-loud 11:56:52 shachaf said 13h 56m 12s ago: I've forgotten. What are your approximate coördinates and body weigh? 11:57:14 hellochaf. Montréal, 165 lbs. 11:57:44 codoctor//P⚭Q ∧ P ∈ 𝔻𝕣 → Q ∈ 𝔻𝕣* 11:58:40 ....what. 11:58:51 `culprits wisdom/codoctor 11:59:19 hppavilion[2] 11:59:52 `? hg 11:59:55 `? cafreine 11:59:59 hg is dark alchemy used by oerjan to fix things. Like most alchemy, it involves drinking mercury. 12:00:04 Cafreine is the favorite drug of category theorists. 12:02:05 `? abyss 12:02:08 In Soviet Russia, the abyss gazes into you first. Other than that, it's pretty much the same. 12:02:50 `? int-e 12:02:52 int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. 12:07:42 “Its place of articulation is disputed (see below).” 12:13:35 I can't remember where that idea of blowing up the Sun came from. 12:13:58 HackEgo: thanks for the reminder! 12:14:19 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:15:59 `` ls wisdom/{l,}koen* 12:16:13 ls: cannot access wisdom/lkoen*: No such file or directory \ wisdom/koen \ wisdom/koen_ 12:16:32 `? wisdom koen 12:16:33 wisdom koen? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 12:16:36 ... 12:16:38 `? koen 12:16:41 `? koen_ 12:16:41 Koen vit au haut de la Tour Eiffel (coordonnées approximatives). 12:16:47 Koen vit au haut de la Tour Eiffel (coordonnées approximatives). 12:16:51 better french would be "en haut" 12:17:12 t'as rien vu, personne n'a aucune preuve, la la la la la ♪ 12:17:51 `` rm wisdom/koen* 12:18:00 No output. 12:18:13 `learn LKoen vivait en haut de la Tout Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé des L est s'est envolé. 12:18:18 Learned 'lkoen': LKoen vivait en haut de la Tout Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé des L est s'est envolé. 12:18:22 `learn LKoen vivait en haut de la Tout Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé des L et s'est envolé. 12:18:22 et s'est envolé 12:18:25 Relearned 'lkoen': LKoen vivait en haut de la Tout Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé des L et s'est envolé. 12:18:37 * boily can't type 12:18:57 I think I actually had a view on the eiffel tower when this first wisdom entry was made 12:19:00 this is not a sequence of letters 12:19:00 heh 12:19:39 now what does "tout" mean... 12:19:46 int-e: "all". 12:19:55 `learn LKoen vivait en haut de la Tour Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé des L et s'est envolé. 12:20:01 Relearned 'lkoen': LKoen vivait en haut de la Tour Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé des L et s'est envolé. 12:20:02 * boily sucks at typing 12:20:11 so it wasn't intentional... okay 12:21:44 are there any other dumb typos lingering in that? 12:24:00 I would've said "mais il s'est préfixé d'un L" rather than "des L" 12:26:03 I think the pun works better with "des L", as they usually come in pairs. 12:26:16 `learn LKoen vivait en haut de la Tour Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé d'un L et s'est envolé. 12:26:25 Relearned 'lkoen': LKoen vivait en haut de la Tour Eiffel, mais il s'est préfixé d'un L et s'est envolé. 12:26:25 oh 12:26:37 "" 12:26:37 third-person singular imperfect indicative of vivre 12:27:01 still stuck on that... AND WHY DOES FIREFOX ADD A NEWLINE IN FRONT WHEN I SELECT A WHOLE LINE!?!! grrr. 12:27:11 int-e: "used to live" 12:28:41 I don't think I'm ever going to learn that language. 12:29:45 je vis, tu vis, il cloue... conjugation is easy! 12:30:37 there's a pun? 12:30:46 you're doing french puns now? 12:31:23 `? oren 12:31:27 oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a. 12:31:33 -!- spiette has joined. 12:31:54 hey 12:32:02 settimeofday({1476087005, 0}, NULL) = 0 in strace i see this 12:32:09 but it doesn't set the date 12:32:18 maybe ntp is involved, maybe not 12:32:20 how do i fix it? 12:32:34 b_jonas: :D 12:32:41 -!- boily has quit (Quit: STAIRS CHICKEN). 12:32:43 `` sed -i 's/.$/ and other shady characters./' wisdom/oren; cat wisdom/oren 12:32:49 oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. 12:33:30 `cat bin/sled 12:33:32 [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" && { echo -n "$key//"; cat "$key"; } 12:36:33 -!- spiette has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:57:03 -!- tromp_ has joined. 13:00:06 -!- mroman has joined. 13:00:22 b_jonas: How's that force going you were bruting? 13:00:54 mroman: that can't work, and I've started to wonder that maybe there's no strategy that beats random 13:01:03 I'm not sure really, I'll still try to think more of it 13:01:35 strategy, hmm 13:01:35 it reminds me a bit to a favourite maths problem, but definitely not the same 13:01:36 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:01:38 the Chameleon one 13:01:55 I don't think I told you that one ever 13:02:29 I've never heard about chameleons from you. 13:03:18 Let me tell that one, it's an interesting problem with no elementary solution. 13:04:24 The story is this. A toy company releases a new line of toys: toy chameleons that can change their color. As sold in the unopened boxes, every chameleon has a unique color, different from every other chameleon. 13:04:24 I'm pretty certain that there's no strategy that beats random. 13:04:32 that's what my empirical data and intuition tells me so far. 13:06:15 You can touch two chameleons of different color, and that makes one of the two become the color of the other, while the other doesn't change, so they are the same color afterwards. However, there's no way to tell which of the two chameleons will change color, and regardless of what happened before and what chameleons you touch, there's exactly 1/2 probability for one or the other. 13:06:59 what 13:07:05 Was that truncated? 13:07:11 the left chameleon is blue, the right is red 13:07:14 yes 13:07:18 ok 13:07:31 so I can touch the left blue one 13:07:41 either the left blue one changes to red or the right red one changes to blue 13:07:48 either way I know which one has changed color. 13:07:49 If you touch the two chameleons to each other, then with 1/2 probability, both chameleons will be blue after, and with 1/2 probability, both will be red afterwards. 13:07:56 -!- spiette has joined. 13:08:00 mroman: sure, but you can't tell in advance which will change 13:08:08 oh. yeah. 13:08:09 you can tell after 13:08:11 no I can't that 13:08:29 but 13:08:38 let's say you are not allowed to learn what number the opponent picked 13:08:49 you only know whether your number was larger, smaller or equal 13:08:59 Um, can't I finish the chameleon thing first? 13:09:03 you ca 13:09:05 *go ahead 13:09:26 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:09:31 You play this game: you start with N chameleons (N is a natural number), each a different color, and in each step, you touch two chameleons of different color (you never touch two chameleons that are of the same color). 13:09:40 The game ends when all N chameleons are the same color. 13:09:46 There are four questions: 13:10:14 (A) Prove that the number of steps of the game (from start to end) has a finite expected value. 13:10:29 No wait, start that one over. 13:10:39 (A) Prove that no matter what strategy you follow, the number of steps of the game (from start to end) has a finite expected value. 13:10:59 (B) Prove that the expected value of the number of steps is the same regardless of what strategy you follow. 13:11:08 (C) What is this expected value exactly? 13:11:52 (D) Prove however, that the strategy you follow can change the distribution of the number of steps of the game (at least if N isn't too small). 13:12:30 Of these, (A) and (D) have elementary solutions, but (B&C) doesn't (I believe). 13:15:21 mroman: go on, you can tell abou tthe numbers thing if you want 13:17:17 b_jonas: what happens when you touch teh chameleons... 13:17:34 int-e: see above. 13:17:47 You can touch two chameleons of different color, and that makes one of the two become the color of the other, while the other doesn't change, so they are the same color afterwards. 13:18:04 However, there's no way to tell which of the two chameleons will change color, and regardless of what happened before and what chameleons you touch, there's exactly 1/2 probability for one or the other. 13:19:19 okay. 13:19:33 (sorry, small window...) 13:25:08 M:tG rules. The ability of Eradicate looks at the name of the creature as it was on the battlefield, but in contrast the ability of Deicide looks at the name of the card in exile, right? 13:25:39 in each step you touch two chameleons together? 13:25:44 sorry afk for a moment 13:26:16