00:02:36 boily: only the ones on crustaseans, otherwise it is not salty enough 00:02:52 getting this strange impression Zarutian doesn't like hákarl, even marinated. 00:03:17 oerjan: it is too basic for me 00:04:09 (antonymic of acid for the ones slow on the uptake) 00:04:39 * oerjan btw learned yesterday that crustaceans are to insects like dinosaurs are to birds 00:05:52 except for the extinct part, i guess. 00:05:53 oerjan: well isnt that exoskelent (excelent)? 00:06:02 oerjan: I'm sure there are some extinct crustaceans 00:07:07 * boily thwacks Zarutian. 0.33 shachafs. 00:07:11 humm, I wonder if you could keep land crabs in lower and lower airpressure for their generations and get a space worthy one. Call it Something Blue 00:07:27 boily: It would be good if you switched to a different unit that doesn't hilight me. 00:07:37 oh hm. right. 00:07:48 the symbol shall be the «Sh». 00:08:21 `slwd shachaf//s# T.*## 00:08:25 wisdom/shachaf//Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. 00:08:35 `? oerjan 00:08:36 Your mysterious evil hungarian oerlord quack doctor oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Pre-recombination Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it. 00:08:45 boily: i hope you subtracted points for explaining the pun 00:08:45 `slwd oerjan//s#doctor ## 00:08:47 wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil hungarian oerlord quack oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Pre-recombination Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it. 00:09:21 oerjan: a good -0.1 Sh were removed. 00:09:43 `slwd oerjan//s#hun#bul# 00:09:46 wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian oerlord quack oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Pre-recombination Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it. 00:12:23 shachaf: why do you remove one of the few true parts tdnh 00:12:42 oerjan: whoa whoa whoa 00:12:42 also, what's the fun in the unit if it's abbreviated... 00:12:49 oerjan: hun or dr? 00:12:58 "doctor" 00:12:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:13:31 Herr Professor Doktor Oerjan 00:13:53 oerjan: Are you sure you *want* "doctor" to be there, if it's preceded by "quack"? 00:14:08 `slwd oerjan//s/Nor/Glas/ 00:14:10 wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian oerlord quack oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it. 00:14:21 escalation! 00:16:12 ah, of course Spaghetti is already an esolang 00:17:00 resistance is Fusilli 00:17:12 -!- Menphis has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 00:17:12 Is "Oerjan" or "OErjan" the correct capitalization? 00:17:26 had a vague idea that might match such a name (some kind of goto-oriented programming) 00:17:45 the former looks better 00:18:38 `slwd oerjan//s#fu#su# 00:18:41 wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian oerlord quack oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it. 00:18:43 There you go. Doctor. 00:19:03 doctoerjan 00:19:36 `slwd oerjan//s#(oerlord) (quack)#\2 \1# 00:19:37 sed: -e expression #1, char 26: invalid reference \2 on `s' command's RHS 00:19:47 That was too much to hope for. 00:20:08 slwd might be using the stupid regexps by default 00:20:16 `slwd oerjan//s#\(oerlord\) \(quack\)#\2 \1# 00:20:18 wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack oerlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it. 00:21:00 `slwd oerjan//s#oer#doctover# 00:21:03 wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack doctoverlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it. 00:21:58 hellolsner. 00:22:13 `sedlast s#with a pasjon#and passion fruit# 00:22:21 wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack doctoverlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it. 00:22:37 hm that may actually be true 00:22:39 `? betty crocker 00:22:40 Betty Crocker is a notorious gambler. 00:22:49 `cwlprits betty crocker 00:22:55 fizzie evilipse shachaf 00:23:00 helloily and byely (niht) 00:23:00 i am not a crock 00:23:11 `relcome olsner 00:23:15 ​olsner: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 00:23:17 I thought "relcome" meant "welcome back". 00:23:17 @nixon what about you 00:23:18 The press is the enemy. 00:23:25 @nixon 00:23:25 I can take it. The tougher it gets, the cooler I get. 00:23:37 shachaf: back? I was always here 00:23:49 `? olsner 00:23:50 @nixon what do you think about the upcoming presidential election in the united states 00:23:50 I played by the rules of politics as I found them. 00:23:51 olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines. 00:24:09 @nixon and you think the current candidates should do the same? 00:24:09 Scrubbing floors and emptying bedpans has as much dignity as the Presidency. 00:25:36 * Zarutian finds the USA presidental election cycle as apealing and quick as removing teeth through the use of live bambo sprouts. 00:25:56 You just want Nixon back? 00:26:47 add on top of that the local parlimentary elections here that came about due to exposure of corruption and you get me rather cranky 00:27:13 shachaf: more like Kennedy 00:27:17 Hm, do Spivak pronouns distinguish animate-inanimate? 00:27:43 parliament? are you some sort of communist 00:27:48 @nixon 00:27:48 Voters quickly forget what a man says. 00:28:55 @time oerjan 00:28:56 Local time for oerjan is Fri Sep 30 01:28:55 2016 00:29:01 but people remember what you have done (against them) on their part 00:29:14 oerjan: are you wearing an orange t-shirt? 00:29:37 oerjan: Hmm, are you actually evil? 00:29:54 If not, maybe we should update that wisdom entry. 00:30:26 `slwd oerjan//s#doctoverlord#octoberlord# 00:30:29 wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it. 00:30:41 boily: grey hth 00:31:04 Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan 00:31:13 Your mysterious evil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan 00:31:17 This is pretty good. 00:31:37 OK, the lack of adverbial forms of numbers other than {1, 2, 3} is REALLY bugging me 00:31:46 Can we please just invent a system for this? 00:31:49 adversarial forms 00:32:15 We have "once, twice, thrice" 00:32:39 `slwd oerjan//s/evil/weevil/ 00:32:41 wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it. 00:32:51 We can add {-1, -2, -3} with "negative once, negative twice, negative thrice" (or s/negative/minus) 00:33:24 -!- Menphis has joined. 00:33:39 0 should probably be 'nulce' 00:33:41 hppavilion[1]: "einnar" is adverbial form? ("Single (feminine) ") 00:34:01 Zarutian: ...no? 00:34:05 Oh, I'm doing it for English 00:34:34 `slwd oerjan//s#doctoverlord#octoberlord# <-- hey i had that thought 00:34:42 hppavilion[1]: you have actually made this lack in English saliant to me 00:34:53 If we go by the same system as ordinals (e.g. "ninety-first"), we just need to name 0..19 (and probably just 0..9) and have a way of naming multiples of 10 00:35:38 hppavilion[1]: stop complaining, norwegian doesn't have adverbial forms for numbers at all... 00:35:54 oerjan: That's Norwegian's problem 00:36:40 oerjan: hvad? det kan ikke vera svo? eller er det svo? 00:37:20 So if second is the object at index 2 and something twice means something that has occurred 2 times, when ninety-first is the object at index 91, and something that has occurred 91 times happened ninety-once 00:37:21 Zarutian: once = en gang, twice = to ganger, etc. no inflection. 00:38:02 oerjan: so it is. This means it is also such in Danish and Swedish. 00:39:26 nulce, once, twice, thrice, fice, vice, sice, sevice, eice, nince, tence, elevence, twelce, thirteence, fourteence, .., ninteence, twentiece 00:39:44 une fois, deux fois, trois fois, quatre fois... pour une fois que le français fait du sens, tsé... 00:40:12 thirtiece, fourtiece, fiftiece, sixtiece, seventiece, eightiece, ninetiece, hundredce 00:40:40 Thousandce, [myiace], millionce, billionce, trillionce 00:40:40 the white cliffs of doctoverlord 00:40:43 And so on 00:41:09 There, english is now less bad 00:41:10 boily: meanwhile, latin has a comprehensive set. semel, bis, ter, quater ... 00:41:28 hppavilion[1]: but this applies to how something happens n times and not the exact cardinality of something else? 00:41:35 That's a scow way to extend a language. 00:41:38 Zarutian: Correct 00:41:48 Better to use separate words than inflecting. 00:41:57 itym a scowce way hth 00:41:59 shachaf: -ce is no different from -th 00:42:13 boily: No, ace scow way 00:42:27 ? 00:42:29 fith? 00:42:29 oerjan: can you tell me if this phrase "memento vitae" is correct latin for "I am reminded that I am alive and joyously existant" 00:42:32 vith? 00:42:40 shachaf: fifth 00:42:51 Better to learn Chinese. 00:43:10 Fource and fifce would be fine, I guess... 00:43:25 (Though 'quice' might be better for 4) 00:43:27 sith? 00:43:36 shachaf: lojban has its charms and doesnt require you to trying to learn to differeniate between modal tones. 00:43:36 absolutely not 00:43:42 Lojban is scow. 00:43:56 The "absolutely not" was a response to "sith?", not to lojban. 00:44:10 Tones aren't even that hard, I assume. 00:44:22 -!- Menphis has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 00:44:23 Zarutian: no, memento is imperative. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/memini#Latin 00:44:32 When I listen to Mandarin for a while I can usually distinguish them after a bit. 00:44:46 oerjanto 00:44:47 shachaf: for someone who is somewhat tonechange deaf it is a problem. 00:45:04 How do you think Chinese speakers handle it? 00:45:15 Or are they none of them "tonechange deaf"? 00:45:31 Or maybe it's too late for you, in your advanced age, to learn it. 00:45:32 oerjan: oh, as the phrase "memento mori" as said to Cesar literally means "remember thou art mortal" 00:46:13 Why would it literally mean something in Elizabethan English? 00:46:35 shachaf: literally used here in figgurative sense 00:46:53 remember you are figurative 00:47:11 whoa whoa whoa 00:47:12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Modern_English 00:47:12 shachaf: and not verbtaim unless as a quote to a movie on the life and death of Cesar 00:47:36 The King James Bible came out after (most of) Shakespeare's plays. 00:47:47 Zarutian: well "mori" means to die, infinitive, but i guess latin uses it metaphorically 00:48:05 In the Jacobian era. And yet Leibniz was only born decades later? 00:48:16 this does not add up hth 00:48:36 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/memento_mori#Latin 00:49:08 shafchaf: oyj dont expose the timewars stitchings this harshly 00:49:44 shafchaf: it is bad enough to have some people so hopelessly stuck in the past that never was. 00:49:45 whoa whoa whoa 00:49:53 The Jacobian is named after King James. 00:50:26 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Everchanging Topic | This counter has been incremented six times | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf". 00:51:27 * Zarutian adds: specially when we got historical characters that never should have been at all. 00:51:39 Taneb: favorite king james: i-v of scotland, i-iii/vi-viii of england and scotland, or one of the spanish ones? 00:52:58 well, I am off to bed 00:53:08 -!- Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian). 00:55:32 King John / Put up a notice, / "LOST or STOLEN or STRAYED! / JAMES JAMES / MORRISON'S MOTHER / SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN MISLAID. / LAST SEEN / WANDERING VAGUELY / QUITE OF HER OWN ACCORD, / SHE TRIED TO GET DOWN TO THE END OF / THE TOWN - FORTY SHILLINGS REWARD!" 00:57:06 That lining is all wrong. 01:00:20 -!- augur has joined. 01:05:57 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:11:08 -!- augur has joined. 01:11:14 shachaf: What, the matrix? 01:11:21 Who? 01:11:26 Jacobian. 01:11:35 Yes. 01:11:39 Very mysterious. 01:11:47 16:48 In the Jacobian era. And yet Leibniz was only born decades later? 01:12:32 I didn't read that far back up. 01:12:49 i think the picture here has the right expression for your claim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustav_Jacob_Jacobi 01:14:19 boily: hello 01:25:56 ...wtf, doctors. You want BMI calculated as m/h^2, but you want us to just drop the units? seriously? 01:26:32 They say you calculate BMI with weight (kg) divided by height (m), but the result isn't given in kg/m^2 01:26:33 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:39:20 If dy/dx is the derivative of a function, can one do other derivatives? 01:39:36 hppavilion[1]: dy/dx is the derivative of y with respect to x 01:39:41 ais523: Yes 01:39:46 and in this case, y is defined as a function of x 01:40:02 for example, if y=x², then dy/dx = 2x 01:40:05 Like, if I have a function f(x, y, z) = o, I can do do/dx, do/dy, do/dz 01:40:18 you could also write that like this: d(x²)/dx = 2x 01:40:31 hppavilion[1]: in that case you have what's called partial derivatives 01:40:35 quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA. 01:41:14 ais523: But can I then do derivative in multiple dimensions? Probably something like f(x, z) = y, dy/dxdz or something? 01:41:27 (How do you even refer to slope in multiple dimensions?) 01:44:02 hppavilion[1]: you could do it at an angle, dy/d(x+z) 01:44:08 OK... 01:44:21 but slope in multiple dimensions is normally referred to using two different slopes 01:44:29 dy/dx and dy/dz in this case 01:45:52 ais523: Would dx/dy (for y = f x) mean the derivative of a function g x = 1/f x? 01:46:21 hppavilion[1]: depends on what you mean by "1/f"; it's the derivative of the inverse of f 01:46:56 ais523: 1/(f x) 01:46:59 possibly f-1'(x)? 01:47:14 (I suddenly curried everything) 01:47:18 ais523: Did you see all my questions about Leibniz notation in here? 01:47:25 Maybe you know the answers. 01:47:30 shachaf: no, but I'm not sure I could answer them 01:47:37 It sounds like you have the same answer to the first question that I did. 01:47:49 hppavilion[1]: the derivative of 1/(f x) is calculated quite differently 01:47:53 ais523: Oh 01:48:05 Namely, when you write dy/dx, y is an expression with free variable x, and it means D(\x. y)(x) 01:48:17 Where D : (R -> R) -> (R -> R) is the differentiation operator on functions. 01:48:38 ais523: I defined division of strings yesterday... 01:48:39 shachaf: I don't think of it like that at all, although it does seem correct 01:48:48 Oh, then how do you think of it? 01:48:48 like, that's just a really alien point of view to me 01:48:54 shachaf: in terms of limits 01:49:04 One person I talked to insisted that the thing on top of dy/dx is a function, rather than an expression. 01:49:23 Would dx/dy be basically f-1'(x) than or have I got that wrong? It's been years since I did all this in my first year of Uni... 01:49:36 Well, sure. Df(x) = lim_{h->0}{ (f(x+h) - f(x)) / h } 01:49:38 DHeadshot: no, that's right 01:50:02 shachaf: I'll buy that 01:50:05 dx/dy = 1/(dy/dx) 01:50:05 Thanks ais523 01:50:23 the thing is I think of the dx and dy things as being deltas on x and y that are inherently self-limiting 01:50:51 This notation is obviously great because it works so well. 01:51:02 dy/du * du/dx = dy/dx, 1/(dy/dx) = dx/dy, etc. 01:51:11 shachaf: right, and the delta notation explains why it works 01:51:14 shachaf: I'm pretty sure d is just an abstract symbol; dy/dx = limit(λ k -> (y*k/x)/(k), approach=0) 01:51:21 If I'm reading Wikipedia right 01:51:37 And turning limit into a function anybody could ever understand 01:51:53 I have seen delta-x/delta-y in some equations, though I forget why 01:52:12 like, the way I think about d is 01:52:17 you replace it with delta 01:52:27 then take a limit on the entire expression containing it in which you tend the deltas to 0 01:52:45 ais523: What do you think of the thing people do where they have e.g.: x^2 + y^2 = 1; d(x^2 + y^2) = d(1); 2x dx + 2y dy = 0; dy/dx = -x/y 01:52:47 the fact that it has an effect on the containing expression means that it isn't quite a variable or something that can be manipulated in its own right 01:53:24 shachaf: it's fun when it works, but not necessarily worth memorizing the rules needed to know whether it will work or not 01:53:30 limit :: t → (t → u) → u 01:53:39 ais523: What are the rules? 01:53:51 I don't know, I didn't memorize them 01:53:52 lim : (R -> R) -> (R -> R) 01:54:07 ais523: Everyone says these rules are ad-hoc. 01:54:18 shachaf: I think my version is better 01:54:20 Well, physicists just use them. 01:54:26 well, I think there's a mathematical basis behind why it works 01:54:49 But they work so well that I think there has to be a good way of formalizing them. Even if dx is just a synthetic symbol or whatever. 01:54:59 is the limit of (f x) as x goes to a 01:54:59 My L : (R -> R) -> (R -> R) is pretty good. 01:55:07 A function f is continous if Lf=f 01:55:16 shachaf: L is a continuiser? 01:55:18 shachaf: Mine doesn't require that you use the real numbers 01:55:31 Neither does mine, if you come up with another structure that it works for. 01:55:43 OTOH, shachaf understands Calculus and I do not 01:55:51 But you need to constrain t and u somehow. 01:56:01 hppavilion[1]: it's not as hard as people think it is 01:56:03 ...I searched Duck Duck Go for "limits". The first suggestion for meaning was in the BDSM sense 01:56:06 Lf(x) is a function which behaves kind of like f but maybe differently. Except it might be extremely different. 01:56:10 at least, differential calculus 01:56:26 ais523: Anyway, the thing about x^2 + y^2 = 1 is that neither x nor y is a function of the other one. 01:56:37 But the derivative is still defined. 01:56:48 One way to make sense of that is to parameterize them both on some other variable t. 01:56:53 x=sin t, y=cos t 01:57:00 yes, that's a well-known trick 01:57:05 And then "dy" really means "dy/dt" and "dx" really means "dx/dt" 01:57:16 But the thing is that the value of dy/dx is independent of your parameterization. 01:57:26 it would have to be 01:57:31 So why should you have to say that it's parameterized in the first place? I just want a direct meaning of "d". 01:58:53 People also do other tricks. They write: dy/dx = Ky; dy/y = K dx; \Int{dy/y} = \Int{K dx}; log(y) + C = Kx + D 01:58:58 well, with the limits interpretation, dy/dx is perfectly meaningful here, so long as you can describe "a small change in x and y simultaneously while obeying the equation" 01:59:00 It almost always seems to work. 01:59:03 that's basically what t does 01:59:17 it allows you to describe how to change x and y while keeping the equation satisfied 01:59:28 Another thing you can write is d(x^3)/d(x^2). So the thing on the bottom isn't even a variable. 01:59:41 there are other equations, such as cos(x)+sin(y)=2, which can't be perturbed while keeping the equation satisfied 01:59:53 so I suspect that equation isn't differentiable 02:00:09 what happens if you try the physicist trick on it? 02:00:31 -!- boily has quit (Quit: DECANTED CHICKEN). 02:00:48 This is all starting to get a bit "black-magic proofs"... 02:01:03 DHeadshot: right, we're busy debating if the proofs work or not and if so why 02:01:05 hmm, let's try it 02:01:09 cos(x)+sin(y)=2 02:01:14 d cos(x) + d sin(y) = d 2 02:01:26 cos(y) - sin (x) = 0 02:01:31 dy/dx = sin(x)/cos(y) 02:01:38 You're missing the dx and dy 02:01:38 ais523: But if we define the division of two strings s and t s/t (where every character in t appears at least as many times in s- written tally(s) :≥ tally(t)) as- non-deterministically- any string that can be generated by removing the same number of occurrences of a character from the top string as appear in the bottom string 02:01:46 shachaf: ah right 02:01:47 s/But // 02:03:07 ais523: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cos(x)%2Bsin(y)%3D2 is the graph of that function. 02:03:30 It doesn't look very interesting, so I'd expect its tangents aren't very interesting either. 02:03:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:03:55 But take cos(x)+sin(y)=0 instead. 02:03:55 shachaf: it's basically a grid of dots 02:04:15 I did that intentionally, to make it impossible to usefully draw a tangent 02:04:18 Ah, right. 02:04:53 Points like (0,pi/2) 02:05:19 But note that the derivative dy/dx is independent of the value 2 here. 02:05:37 (There are certain special types of quotient; for example, a Simple Quotient of s/t is any string in the set of quotients of s/t that have the smallest edit distance using the Simple Distance metric (which allows nothing but insertion and deletion of arbitrary-length continuous blocks of text)) 02:05:58 Graph isn't showing up for me? 02:06:01 shachaf: try cos(x)-cos(y)=0 02:06:12 the tangents to that are really easy to define 02:06:26 however, changing the 0 to a different value changes them 02:06:30 (A Proper Quotient of s/t is only possible when t is a proper substring of s (and you just remove that substring), a Perfect Quotient is a Perfect Quotient where the substring is at the very end) 02:06:39 ais523: Right, but dy/dx is defined in terms of both x and y 02:06:46 oh right 02:06:51 that's a good point 02:06:52 So 'abcdefg'/'fg' = 'abcde', and that's a perfect quotient 02:07:02 ais523: Same thing for the circle: x^2+y^2=k has the same tangents no matter what the radius is, in terms of x and y. 02:07:27 ais523: Which makes dy/dx = -x/y a much better answer than something like dy/dx = -x/sqrt(1-x^2), which only works for one radius. 02:07:45 (And also it works for the whole circle rather than just the top half.) 02:07:47 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:07:49 ais523: But my point is, with this needlessly convoluted system of string functions, can we start to play with dy/dx of y = f(x) when the function is f : String → String? 02:08:07 shachaf: the formula with sqrt also works for both halves :-P 02:08:19 hppavilion[1]: I'm not really interested in the topic, sorry 02:08:22 Depending on what you mean by sqrt. 02:08:24 ;/ 02:08:26 *:/ 02:09:28 Anyway, dy/dx = sin(x)/cos(y), at (0,pi/2), is 0/0 02:09:35 And the derivative is indeed not defined. 02:09:44 So it's not so bad. 02:11:06 Er, no. 02:11:14 Er, yes. 02:11:26 ...OK, on second thought, the GoJ is terrible. <-- that didn't take long 02:11:39 Oh, you wrote cos(x)+sin(y)=2 02:11:45 That's why it wasn't working. 02:12:06 But when cos(x)+sin(y)=2, cos(y) will always be 0 02:13:38 -!- augur has joined. 02:16:44 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:17:37 I have more things on this topic but I'm not sure whether ais523 isn't interested in either one. 02:17:43 I'm curious about the "self-limiting" thing. 02:19:39 -!- Kaynato has joined. 02:20:13 Last time I was wondering about how this worked for second derivatives. 02:20:43 I'm fairly sure it does but am possibly too tired to figure out how 02:20:56 I think you have to take a limit /of/ a limit 02:21:03 What do you think about the notation d^2y/dx^2? 02:21:13 which is why the d²y notation exists 02:21:22 Right, I believe that d(dy) has a meaning. 02:21:28 But why do you divide by dx twice? 02:21:29 (specifically, it's d²y/(dx)²) 02:21:42 bleh, I can't remember 02:21:49 And in particular if you work it out, you get an extra term. 02:21:50 I knew the reason once, and it was a good one 02:21:53 I just can't remember what it was 02:22:04 Which maybe should be 0 and maybe shouldn't? oerjan was saying something about it. 02:22:09 Say you parameterize everything in terms of dt. 02:22:28 Question: what's this channel for? 02:22:32 So d(...) really means what people usually write as d(...)/dt 02:22:36 it's like ##programming ##math and ##english 02:22:38 `welcome Bowserinator 02:22:39 Bowserinator: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 02:22:49 *clicks* 02:22:53 Bowserinator: notionally it's about esoteric programming languages 02:22:56 oh :) 02:22:59 but it tends to go offtopic a lot 02:23:01 I like this channel already 02:23:09 I think Leibniz notation isn't really too far from esoteric languages. 02:23:21 right, the things we discuss are normally related to esolangs in some ways 02:23:29 Recently I learned a new word, "exoteric", meaning the opposite of esoteric. 02:23:34 e.g. they're the result of applying an esolang frame of mind to something other than programming 02:23:41 English is an esoteric natural language, for example :-P 02:24:52 if you tried to design an esolang to work like English 02:25:01 admittedly you'd probably end up with Perl, which is not quite esoteric 02:25:17 (Larry Wall was a specialist on natural languages and used English as a model when creating Perl) 02:25:38 ais523: Anyway, I think you get: d(dy) = d(dy/dx)/dx^3 + (dy/dx) d(dx) 02:26:28 Bowserinator: ohai 02:26:36 -!- otherbot has joined. 02:26:41 my bot has too many interpreters 02:26:45 blame moonythedwarf 02:26:47 -list 02:26:47 jeffl35: echo ping pong eval flushq help list use store cash inv savecstate buy sell give kick ban unban op deop mode attack poke join part reload whois nick pyc pad pyr giac befr padclr lolr ><>r js rsc ul makeCmd userland rulc pnig 02:26:50 -pnig 02:26:50 LEARN TO TYPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!11!!!!1!!! 02:26:52 lol 02:26:53 jeffl35: hackego has way more 02:27:04 ais523: So d^2y/dx^2 = d(dy/dx)/dx + (dy/dx) d^2x/dx^2 02:27:08 ais523: yeah, probably, considering it's been in development for a few years 02:27:12 What's the meaning of that extra term? 02:27:19 ohb tw 02:27:23 otherbot has a cas! 02:27:27 -giac integrate() 02:27:28 Added 0 synonyms "integrate(NULL) Error: Bad Argument Value" // Time 0 // Total time 0 02:27:35 jeffl35: the main bot in this channel for years was egobot 02:27:41 hackego has all its interpreters 02:27:42 yeah, ik 02:27:51 oh 02:27:53 read that wrong 02:27:59 lol 02:28:02 `! underload (test)S 02:28:03 test 02:28:08 Wasn't bot spam supposed to go in #esoteric-blah, anyway? 02:28:14 -ul (test)S 02:28:14 ​test 02:28:17 :D 02:28:25 shachaf: no idea 02:28:27 shachaf: #esoteric-blah is basically for anything that's particularly spammy that we don't want cluttering this channel 02:28:33 like pasting entire text files directly into IRC 02:28:33 like stack traces! 02:28:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:28:38 or that 02:28:50 my bot has a bad habit of outputting whole stack traces to irc when run on the wrong node.js version 02:29:05 its rules are very similar to #esoteric's except a) there's no rule against flooding (in fact, it's somewhat encouraged) and b) people hardly ever speak there unless a conversation gets moved there from here 02:29:29 -giac integrate(5x-4) 02:29:30 Added 0 synonyms 5*x^2/2-4*x // Time 0.01 // Total time 0.01 02:29:34 well, there we go 02:29:46 -giac dxdy() 02:29:46 Help file /usr/share/giac/doc/local/aide_cas not found Added 0 synonyms dxdy // Time 0 // Total time 0 02:29:56 definitely not a thing 02:30:03 -giac derivative() 02:30:03 // Maximum number of parallel threads 8 Help file /usr/share/giac/doc/local/aide_cas not found Added derivative 02:30:10 -giac derivative() 02:30:11 C.UTF-8 // /usr/share/locale/ // derivative 02:30:15 -giac derivative() 02:30:15 Added 0 synonyms derivative // Time 0 // Total time 0 02:30:17 ais523: Is (dy/dx)^2 = dy^2/dx^2? 02:30:22 ???????????????????????????????????? 02:30:39 shachaf: I think so 02:30:59 oerjan was pointing out some counterexample a few days ago. 02:31:11 Which led me to think that I wasn't sure about d^2x/dx^2 02:31:20 Should it be 0? 02:31:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:32:53 -!- augur has joined. 02:33:08 shachaf: good point, second derivative of x is 0 02:34:10 which means that you can't treat that like a normal division 02:34:11 Say you parameterize it in t, so d means derivative with respect to t. x = t^2; d(dx) = 2; dx^2 = 4x^2; d^2x/dx^2 = 1/(2x^2) 02:34:34 So certainly it doesn't just naively work when you parameterize it like this. 02:38:31 If it's not normal division, what is it? 02:40:20 Say everything is parameterized in t, dy/dx = u. That means dy = u dx, so d(dy) = du dx + u d(dx) 02:40:28 Should that much be permitted? 02:41:18 ugh, I'm too tired to figure this out 02:41:23 also haven't had to calculus this much in years 02:41:31 @time ais523 02:41:32 Local time for ais523 is Fri Sep 30 02:41:32 2016 02:44:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:45:59 -!- Akaibu has quit. 02:48:07 -!- ais523 has quit. 02:52:55 -!- super_bender has joined. 02:56:40 shachaf: i assumed this was what those extra terms in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_of_a_function#Higher-order_differentials were supposed to fix 02:56:58 oerjan: Didn't we have a counterexample? 02:57:00 (for the x not the independent variable case) 02:57:32 I mean, those extra terms were the same as the ones I had given before. 02:58:06 i'm pretty sure i was all quacked out at that point 02:58:14 Ah, right. 02:59:11 Let's see. 02:59:43 -!- super_bender has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:02:50 I've forgotten the example. There were two of them. 03:04:50 i vaguely think my original example was based on assuming f''(x) = d^2 y / (dx)^2 held and getting a contradiction if dx is 0 because x = g(t) where g'(t) = 0. 03:06:13 OK, one example had x=t^2, y=t^3 03:06:17 Let me work through that again. 03:06:50 hm i suppose what happens with the expanded formula is that d^2 y does not determine f''(x) 03:07:17 f'' means d(dy/dx)/dx? 03:07:24 Er, f''(x) 03:08:01 instead, when dx = 0, you get f'(x) = d^2 y / d^2 x. which looks like l'hôpital. 03:08:52 (vaguely) 03:09:02 Hmm, there's an easier way of looking at it, I guess. If d(dy/dx)/dx = d(dy)/dx^2, then d(u/v) = d(u)/v, which is obviously not true in general. In general d(u/v) = (v du - u dv)/v^2 03:09:22 Which is equal to d(u)/v when dv = 0 03:09:45 shachaf: oh, i still cannot get my head around trying to calculate second derivatives like d(dy/dx)/dx, because scope. 03:09:54 oerjan: What? There's no scope issue there. 03:10:14 If y is an expression in x, y = x^2, then dy/dx is also an expression in x, dy/dx = 2x 03:10:56 OK, I guess what you're saying is that there might be confusing shadowing going on there. 03:11:04 yeah 03:11:15 I'm hoping that that's not true but I can see the objection. 03:11:34 But I don't want to write f''(x), because y might not be a function of x 03:12:16 i think it might be worth avoiding explicit division. 03:12:47 OK. 03:12:55 Well, you can do it with products too. 03:13:05 Instead of dy/dx = u, write dy = u dx 03:13:25 that way, you won't divide by zeros 03:13:27 Then d(dy) = du dx + u d(dx) 03:14:11 If you could divide by dx^2 here, you would get d(dy)/dx^2 = du/dx + du d(dx)/dx^2 03:14:26 But that probably isn't necessary. 03:14:41 i think that's precisely the formula from wikipedia? 03:15:11 Sure, except I wrote u instead of f'(x) 03:16:23 Anyway: If dy = u dx, then d(dy) = du dx + u d(dx) 03:16:24 Always true? 03:16:51 and we're allowed to replace du dx by f''(x) dx^2 assuming f''(x) exists, even if dx is 0 03:17:18 But that one only makes sense if y is a function of x. 03:17:46 no, because the ordinary chain rule works for first derivatives 03:18:05 Doesn't f only make sense if y = f(x)? 03:18:12 well yeah 03:18:24 that's the assumption in the formula. 03:18:26 That's why I was avoiding it. 03:19:05 but if it isn't, then i'm not sure dy = u dx is conceptually true 03:19:24 Because y = f(t), x = g(t) 03:19:45 And dy/dt = u dx/dt 03:20:10 OK, I got the algebra wrong last time, I think. 03:20:22 ok, assuming dx/dt isn't 0 anywhere dy/dt isn't 03:20:51 Sure. 03:21:07 Say x=t^2, y=t^3. 03:21:10 Then it works out. 03:21:12 or actually, if both are 0 you need l'hôpital again 03:21:26 d(dy) = 6t, du dx = 3t, u d(dx) = 3t 03:23:47 oerjan: So it's sounding like it actually is the same scope? 03:24:37 yeah maybe 03:25:05 So the lesson here is that the notation d^2y/dx^2 is kind of broken. 03:25:32 In particular it only works when d^2x = 0? 03:25:43 But what does it mean for d^2x to be 0? 03:26:11 well it's true if x is the independent variable 03:26:19 What does that mean? 03:26:37 the one everything bottoms out as functions of 03:26:37 I thought half the point of this notation was that you can just do these mafipulations on their own and they work. 03:26:53 I'm trying to get a parameterization-free version of it. 03:27:10 and then you need the d^2 x term, i guess. 03:27:33 I'm OK with that. 03:28:19 It's even useful to know: The usual second derivative expression d^2y/dx^2 off by (dy/dx) (d^2x/dx^2) 03:28:26 What's the meaning of that? 03:29:10 I mean, that looks like an important expression, so where else does it come up? 03:31:37 Say I just have some expressions or functions or whatever else. How do I decide whether d^2x = 0? 03:31:49 In differential geometry, d^2 = 0 always, right? Are these related? 03:32:08 differential geometry is antisymmetric, i don't think this is 03:32:22 As in dx dy = -dy dx? 03:32:24 *the forms of 03:33:10 Maybe this is antisymmetric when you have multiple independent variables? 03:33:22 We've been making the assumptions that y and x are functions of the same thing. 03:34:36 On the other hand https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/ae52a2c75169e1884e87a001e385e94ce7164111 doesn't look very antisymmetric either... 03:35:00 i'm not sure what happens for second derivatives when you vary more than one independent variable, although there was some partial stuff in that wp section too 03:36:35 If dy = f'(x) dx, then dy dx = (f'(x) dx) dx and dx dy = dx (f'(x) dx) 03:37:20 And given that these things are linear, those should maybe be equal? 03:37:32 you'd think. 03:37:33 I guess it depends on how you define the product. 03:39:15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_form says the exterior derivative "extends the differential of a function" 03:44:03 -!- wanderman has joined. 03:44:54 oh well 03:52:40 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 03:59:41 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 04:00:16 `? oerjan 04:00:17 Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it. 04:00:43 oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, did you slwd your own wisdom entry? 04:01:05 -!- Tefaj has changed nick to Jafet. 04:03:33 `emoclew Tefaj 04:03:35 ​(.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) . :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :jafeT 04:05:10 -!- wanderman has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:09:15 is 960x720 720p? 04:10:00 > 720 * 16/9 04:10:02 1280.0 04:10:05 no hth 04:10:16 then i feel cheated 04:10:46 this torrent i just illegally downloaded was supposed to be evangelion in 720p but it's 960x720 04:11:13 > 960/720 04:11:15 1.3333333333333333 04:11:31 maybe it didn't claim to be 16:9 04:11:43 i guess "4:3 720p" would be that 04:11:48 > 1280-960 04:11:50 320 04:12:05 it's only off by a few pixels 04:12:37 i'll ask for a full refund 04:16:12 fahcahellos 04:16:21 full refund? what nerv. 04:25:01 720p is literally "720 vertical lines, progressive" (as opposed to interlaced) 04:25:12 It could be just 1 pixel thick and still count 04:27:45 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Powering off). 04:28:30 that's why i couldn't get a refund 04:38:29 -!- tromp has quit. 05:26:33 -!- `^_^v has joined. 05:32:19 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 05:33:00 -!- `^_^v has joined. 05:37:12 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:38:38 -!- otherbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:42:44 -!- wanderman has joined. 05:47:18 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:03:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:20:17 -!- brandonson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:24:54 Is it appropriate just to say n! = gamma(n+1) and be done with it? 06:27:36 For whom? 06:54:03 -!- Froo has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 06:54:24 -!- Frooxius has joined. 07:11:53 shachaf: Humans? 07:14:37 -!- wander___ has joined. 07:17:29 -!- wanderman has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:18:17 -!- Elronnd has changed nick to radiohead. 07:19:01 -!- radiohead has changed nick to Elronnd. 07:27:34 hppavilion[1]: only when the audience has enough knowledge about gamma function 07:27:47 lifthrasiir: Well yeah 07:46:56 [wiki] [[Biota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49824&oldid=30500 * Martin Ender * (+19) 07:47:53 [wiki] [[Quipu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49825&oldid=45982 * Martin Ender * (+39) 07:48:59 -!- augur has joined. 07:49:00 [wiki] [[Marbelous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49826&oldid=45195 * Martin Ender * (+57) 08:01:52 -!- wander___ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:28:48 I vote we make Abortion clinics (and anything associated with birth control) use a variant symbol of the Rod of Aesculapius that replaces the snake with a wire coathanger. Because I'm a bad person. 08:31:15 Do you actually mean that you're a bad person? 08:31:53 If so, saying you're a bad person doesn't exempt you from any of the consequence of acting in a bad way. 08:32:05 shachaf: I know 08:32:13 shachaf: I thought the imagery was funny 08:32:35 -!- wanderman has joined. 08:34:45 -!- impomatic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:38:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:42:37 [wiki] [[Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49827&oldid=35363 * Martin Ender * (+57) 08:42:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:43:16 -!- augur has joined. 08:47:33 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:47:33 -!- augur has joined. 08:52:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:08:48 -!- carado has joined. 09:21:43 [wiki] [[RUBE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49828&oldid=33697 * Martin Ender * (+39) 09:23:08 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:25:19 -!- augur has joined. 09:47:38 -!- `^_^v has joined. 10:05:20 oerjan: So when people differentiate twice, they write (d/dx) . (d/dx) 10:05:32 (d/dx) really means (/dx) . d 10:05:48 So differentiating twice is (*1/dx) . d . (*1/dx) . d 10:06:36 If 1/dx is a constant, then the multiplication commutes with d. If not then you need to add an extra term. to account for how it changes. 10:07:20 ((d^2/dx^2) means ((*1/x) . (*1/x) . d . d), of course.) 10:11:17 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:11:38 s=/x=/dx=g 10:11:54 Er, yes. 10:13:06 and you're in somewhat murky territory (treating d as a separate operator), but I suppose you know that. 10:13:33 Yes, see either conversation with ais523 a few hours ago or the conversation with oerjan a few days ago. 10:13:45 It's somewhat murky but I'm trying to figure out how d behaves in order to make it less murky. 10:14:00 In order to make it work I've been saying that x and y are both secretly defined in terms of t. 10:14:17 d(e) means what people would normally write as de/dt 10:14:44 And everything works pretty well, d(x^2) = 2x dx and so on. 10:15:57 But the second derivative of y in terms of x isn't d^2y/dx^2, it's d^2y/dx^2 - (dy/dx) d^2x/dx^2 10:16:40 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 10:17:25 Or you can just say d(dy) = d(dy/dx) dx + (dy/dx) d(dx) 10:18:55 Is it the case that (dy/dx)^2 = dy^2/dx^2? 10:20:40 If y is in terms of an independent variable x, (dy/dx)^2 = dy^2/dx^2, and the second derivative is d^2y/dx^2. So f''(x)/f'(x)^2 = d^2y/dy^2? 10:20:51 (Where y = f(x).) 10:21:14 d(2x)/dx = 2; d((2x)^2)/d(x^2) = d(4x^2)/d(x^2) = 4 = 2^2 10:21:16 Does f''(x)/f'(x)^2 have a standard name? 10:21:39 So, that's one black crow 10:21:46 Taneb: ? 10:21:58 shachaf, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_paradox 10:22:38 I'm not following. Are you saying that there's a flaw or that what you just said is irrelevant? 10:23:34 d(4x^2)/d(x^2) is certainly 4. 10:23:58 d(4u)/du = 4 for any choice of u 10:24:25 shachaf, I'm saying it's a tiiiiny bit of evidence that's ultimately useless 10:24:37 Evidence of what? 10:24:55 Is it the case that (dy/dx)^2 = dy^2/dx^2? 10:25:22 dx^2 means (dx)^2 10:25:53 Ah, I misinterpreted you 10:26:24 This isn't something I know very well at all I'm afraid 10:27:43 The question I asked was kind of meaningless in itself. 10:28:21 Taneb: Wait, didn't you invent D-modules? 10:28:39 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 10:28:39 D-modules were the original tanebvention. 10:29:00 Your name is right there on the Wikipedia page. 10:33:15 shachaf, that was a long time ago, I'm very rusty 10:33:43 oldneb 10:33:56 Taneb: are you interested in the lentil stew i made in the pressure cooker today 10:34:32 this reminds me that I wanted to understand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_ring a while ago... 10:34:52 (well, the concept, not necessarily the wikipedia page) 10:35:04 what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_ring 10:35:39 No I wasn't reminded of that at all until you brought it up. 10:36:17 webrings were kind of cute 10:36:37 Oh, this seems interesting. 10:37:14 I didn't know people talked about "local" behavior in purely algebraic structures like rings. 10:47:03 -!- wanderman has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:02:17 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 11:02:39 -!- Frooxius has joined. 11:03:03 Say y=sin(x). Then d^2y/dy^2 = -tan(x)/cos(x)? 11:03:16 I'm going to sleep. 11:19:05 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/hoi4uk.PNG 11:19:24 <\oren\> I think the uk has done well foer itself this time 11:19:41 Very united 11:20:28 I never got the hang of HOI4 11:20:40 <\oren\> the trick is to use lots of nukes I find 11:21:00 <\oren\> annihilate anything even resembling industry 11:21:08 Historically only two were used 11:21:55 <\oren\> I used uh... well, basically several on every city in continental europe... 11:22:18 Could you use strategic bombing instead? 11:22:36 <\oren\> you can 11:22:48 <\oren\> but I used nuclear ballistic missiles 11:23:02 That's a bit of a nuclear option, so to speak 11:23:13 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:23:30 <\oren\> I also used them to soften up the maginot line for my advance into germany 11:25:01 <\oren\> hoi4 doesn't seem to model the problems resulting from driving a tank into a fallout zone mere hours after the nuke was used 11:25:25 <\oren\> not very realistic 11:25:31 I suspect that if it did you'd be playing this somewhat differently 11:25:52 Or at least not telling your tank drivers everything 11:28:10 <\oren\> Ooh, with all this territory, I can create various countries with stupid borders, causing hilarous problems. 11:28:36 -!- Deepfriedice has joined. 11:28:38 Just like the UK did in real life! 11:28:50 (who the hell thought East Pakistan was a good idea) 11:28:56 -!- Deepfriedice has left. 11:30:19 (and whatever happened in the middle east) 11:30:29 My best game of HOI4 I think I was playing as Iran 11:30:39 <\oren\> I creared west germany. but its capital and only major city is Arad 11:31:03 I went fascist and took most of the middle east that wasn't British or French 11:32:33 Then I ended up at war with the Soviet Union and realised not having manpower could be an issue 11:36:47 -!- boily has joined. 11:37:35 <\oren\> I know what I'll do. I'll try to fill up every building slot in my giant territory, then create a new set of european countries 11:37:54 <\oren\> then nuke the USA 11:39:52 he\\oren\. 11:44:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:51:20 <\oren\> boily: Hi 11:51:39 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/hoi4uk.PNG <-- here's where I'm at now 11:55:19 that's a very big UK... 11:57:24 <\oren\> I may try to make it bigger by killing the USA 11:59:14 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 12:02:52 United Kingdoms of Eurasia-Africa 12:15:35 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:24:02 -!- boily has quit (Quit: HEAVY CHICKEN). 12:37:17 i have 32 bytes. what's the best way rotate them right by 123? 12:44:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:53:09 ror rax, 123 12:56:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:04:38 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 13:14:35 -!- `^_^v has joined. 13:16:57 -!- Kaynato has joined. 13:38:30 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:42:25 how do i celebrate the day i will be able to breath through my nose again? 14:05:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:18:05 -!- moonythedwarf has joined. 14:18:09 Boo 14:18:50 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 14:19:02 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:19:47 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit). 14:20:35 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:43:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:49:36 @tell shachaf oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, did you slwd your own wisdom entry? <-- see `? overlord hth 14:49:36 Consider it noted. 14:55:37 `? overlord 14:55:40 Evil overlords do evil acts like taking over the world, kicking puppies, and changing their own wisdom entries. 14:58:34 -!- Kaynato has joined. 15:00:26 `? lambdabot 15:00:27 lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src. 15:00:32 @src 15:00:32 src . Display the implementation of a standard function 15:00:36 @src 1 15:00:37 Source not found. My mind is going. I can feel it. 15:00:41 @src list 15:00:41 Source not found. 15:00:45 @src 2 15:00:45 Source not found. Your mind just hasn't been the same since the electro-shock, has it? 15:00:49 @src 3 15:00:49 Source not found. You untyped fool! 15:00:52 @src 4 15:00:52 Source not found. BOB says: You seem to have forgotten your passwd, enter another! 15:00:57 wat 15:01:04 @src 4 15:01:05 Source not found. Abort, Retry, Panic? 15:01:06 @src 4 15:01:06 Source not found. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash. 15:01:10 @src 4 15:01:10 Source not found. My brain just exploded 15:01:11 @src 4 15:01:11 Source not found. Just what do you think you're doing Dave? 15:01:13 @src 4 15:01:13 Source not found. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist! 15:01:15 @src 4 15:01:15 Source not found. Do you think like you type? 15:01:17 @src 4 15:01:17 Source not found. :( 15:01:18 why would you expect number literals to have sources 15:01:23 Dunno 15:01:35 @src > 15:01:35 x > y = case compare x y of 15:01:35 GT -> True 15:01:35 _ -> False 15:01:59 oh thats for haskell things. ok 15:02:11 also, a certain fake einstein quote comes to mind. 15:03:30 -!- Caesura has joined. 15:05:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:05:27 hm, well actually lambdabot _did_ respond differently. 15:05:41 `quote insane 15:05:44 122) pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?" \ 397) There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and 15:05:52 `quote 397 15:05:55 397) There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] You've just gave me a different result [...] It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur. 15:06:47 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:12:28 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:19:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:19:20 -!- wanderman has joined. 15:28:21 myname: 32 bytes 15:39:05 eax 15:39:14 -!- Menphis has joined. 15:44:02 my eax isn't that large <.< 15:45:07 izalove: try xmm0 16:04:42 izalove: how is your rax too large and your eax not large enough? 16:05:03 rax isn't too large -.- 16:05:13 huh 16:05:23 32 >>bytes<< 16:05:32 ah m( 16:05:38 256 bits 16:07:00 Would that I knew x86 to help :( 16:07:15 right, I should've suggested ymm0 16:08:15 oh and they have zmmi as well... what will they use for 1024 bit registers? 16:08:35 @djinn ((a -> b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c 16:08:36 f a _ b = a (\ _ -> b) 16:08:55 int-e: ammi 16:08:58 int-e: wmmi? 16:09:07 -!- Menphis has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 16:09:07 following the x,y,z,w convention for 4D coordinates 16:09:15 > succ 'z' 16:09:17 '{' 16:09:26 {mmi ok 16:09:43 |mmi }mmi ~mmi DELmmi 16:12:17 interesting... i cannot smell yet but i can somehow "taste" that the tissues i use have some kind of balsam herbs in them 16:14:26 * moonythedwarf is still trying to figure out how to make and present proof of turing completeness for gravbox (https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravbox) 16:15:14 you should put urls in <> rather than () 16:15:20 kk 16:15:43 template your urls 16:16:19 x> is the official(tm) way to do that 16:16:36 most software recognizes that and does not make the > as part of the link 16:16:52 @djinn a -> (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> c 16:16:52 f a b c = b (c a) 16:16:55 the ) however will be made part of the link somewhere 16:16:56 oerjan suggusted fractran, but managing the value might be a issue, any better lanugage to use to prove turing completeness? 16:17:52 <<< there 16:17:59 what's hard about managing the value, just keep it on top of the stack 16:18:18 oh true enough. ais was confusing me there 16:19:20 ais idea is if you want to avoid bignums 16:19:59 ah 16:20:22 well i _dont_ want to. *me goes off to translatea fractran program to gravbox 16:21:43 what happens on division by 0? 16:22:01 shouldn't be an issue with a normal fractran program 16:22:17 [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49829&oldid=49822 * Moon * (+103) Minor instruction change 16:22:33 int-e: depends on interp sadly, most likely a error 16:23:44 moonythedwarf: that's not minor, now you have a full queue i think 16:24:30 unless you don't actually remove the original second to bottom, in which case it just became useless. 16:25:07 moonythedwarf: also, this will be much more awkward to use when you _do_ want to manipulate as a stack. 16:26:18 also that phrasing is pretty confusing. 16:26:36 speaking of confusing phrasing, what does "divide from" mean? 16:27:33 yeah there are also plenty of commands that don't say whether they delete their arguments 16:27:56 although it would be pretty awkward if they didn't 16:29:20 * oerjan recommends forthy stack notation. see e.g. Underload or Glass pages. 16:30:33 [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49830&oldid=49829 * Moon * (-106) 16:32:08 so basically you have *one* scratch register now 16:32:17 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:33:28 looks like it. 16:34:10 now if we could somehow pop a value without any other effect that could be used to swap the top two elements of the stack, hmm 16:34:24 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:34:29 0*+ does that 16:34:37 [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49831&oldid=49830 * Moon * (+3) 16:35:13 int-e: ^ 16:35:17 ah. so :0*+:^: 16:35:43 oh actually there's a % command 16:35:46 oh now it's back. 16:36:03 ah. so :%:^: then 16:36:14 (but : has just changed once again) 16:36:43 oerjan: you pointed out a way for me to cut out % :P now its gone because you pointed out a alternative, or should i keep it 16:36:51 because 0*+ makes it into a wimpmode 16:37:04 you don't have to be as minimal as possible 16:37:11 true enough. 16:37:19 afk 16:37:41 moonythedwarf: well technically 0*+ only works if there's at least two stack elements to start with 16:38:32 but in the context where one treats the bottom element of the stack as a scratch register that's true already, so it was perfectly in line with what I needed 16:38:44 moonythedwarf: also, int-e pointed out how to implement the top 2 swap using the top and bottom swap 16:38:50 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:38:53 or wanted... I don't really need any of this. 16:39:52 [wiki] [[Gravbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49832&oldid=49831 * Moon * (-3) Reverted 16:41:15 int-e: i don't think your :0*+:^: can be right because it deletes the bottom of the stack 16:41:38 oerjan: it's a scratch register 16:41:45 :-P 16:42:21 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 16:42:24 (My idea was to just not use the bottom of the stack for anything besides temporary storage.) 16:42:47 ok 16:43:11 but yes, I could've mentioned that. 17:12:45 back 17:28:08 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:31:33 -!- Caesura has joined. 17:56:57 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 18:16:20 -!- wanderman has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:17:14 -!- Zoroaster has joined. 18:20:54 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:25:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:25:16 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:38:30 -!- newsham has joined. 18:50:49 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:59:49 -!- augur has joined. 19:08:18 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:08:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 19:16:57 -!- augur has joined. 19:35:46 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 19:35:57 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:36:28 -!- augur has joined. 19:47:22 -!- Menphis has joined. 19:59:19 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:59:31 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 20:05:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:23:06 -!- Reece` has joined. 20:31:41 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:36:59 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:43:38 -!- Cale has joined. 21:02:10 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Changing host). 21:02:10 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 21:02:22 -!- nitrix has changed nick to MeMyselfAndI. 21:03:01 -!- MeMyselfAndI has changed nick to nitrix. 21:04:21 In the rule update bulletin for Magic: the Gathering, they mention that the first card that created any tokens did use the term "create", although they changed it and now they changed it back to "create". 21:05:25 ?messages-loud 21:05:25 boily asked 4d 19h 58m 4s ago: hezzo38. are you unprovable? 21:05:26 wob_jonas said 4d 59m 1s ago: You know that Agner Fog's calling conventions manual http://www.agner.org/optimize/#manual_call_conv describes most of the details of the schemes used by popular C++ 21:05:26 compilers, right? In theory that allows you to call C++ functions, but \ 21:05:26 wob_jonas said 4d 58m 43s ago: it doesn't allow you to access a lot of structures defined by the C++ standard library, because the ABI for that is decided not by the mangling, but by the struct 21:05:26 declarations, inline function definitions, and other declarations and macro definitions in the headers, and Agner's manual doesn't describe that because it would be almost imp 21:05:27 shachaf said 3d 9h 32m 40s ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_of_a_function#Higher-order_differentials 21:06:04 zzo38: As that page points out, d^2y/dx^2 = d(dy/dx)/dx + (dy/dx) d^2x/dx^2 21:06:50 Or just d^2y = d(dy/dx) dx + (dy/dx) d^2x 21:06:53 Or something. 21:07:55 Yes I did read that now 21:09:02 Do you like that? 21:09:27 Yes, OK now I can understand better 21:12:11 You can? 21:12:24 How can you tell whether d^2x = 0? 21:12:35 Is (dy/dx)^2 = (dy^2/dx^2)? 21:13:21 Say d^2x = 0. Then (d^2y/dx^2)/((dy/dx)^2) = (d^2y/dx^2)/(dy^2/dx^2) = d^2y/dy^2? 21:13:49 If y = f(x), then d^2y/dy^2 would be f''(x)/f'(x)^2? 21:14:26 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:28:11 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 21:35:26 -!- Caesura has joined. 21:38:43 -!- Zoroaster has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:45:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:55:46 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 22:16:34 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:16:42 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:26:42 -!- Zarutian has joined. 22:27:12 -!- Zarutian has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:27:25 -!- Zarutian has joined. 22:29:57 -!- heroux has joined. 22:49:21 -!- boily has joined. 22:51:03 -!- Caesura has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:54:19 -!- Caesura has joined. 22:55:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:56:42 `wisdom 22:56:51 obell//The obell is what we ring each time a new strip of the o webcomic is published. 22:58:08 When at library recently I have read book about GURPS; there is a lot of stuff there, but some things it doesn't seems to say such as about defining a group of powers that share the number of limited use per day, or limited number of uses per day of an attack that only expends a usage if the attack hits, or for an advantage or disadvantage to enable, disable, or alter another advantage or disadvantage 22:58:23 `learn OL stands for Original Lyrics. A person who sings songs unmodified is called an OList. 22:58:29 Learned 'ol': OL stands for Original Lyrics. A person who sings songs unmodified is called an OList. 22:59:20 I like GURPS. it has Montréal as a city-state ^^ 23:38:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:39:28 `date 23:39:30 Fri Sep 30 22:39:17 UTC 2016 23:39:47 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:40:13 -!- heroux has joined. 23:40:38 The Year of Our Lord Two Thousand Sixteen 23:41:01 shachaf: i am eagerly looking forward to my time of lordship hth 23:41:20 that would be The Year of Our Overlord 23:41:29 `? oerjan 23:41:31 Your mysterious weevil bulgarian quack octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture computation. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl and passion fruit. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it. 23:41:37 shachaf: just the month, for now. 23:41:54 oh, right 23:42:04 The Month of Our Lord October 23:42:12 `? password of the month 23:42:13 password of the month? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 23:42:19 `? password 23:42:22 The password of the month is au cœur de septembre 23:42:27 PRAY THAT I DON'T MAKE IT A RED ONE 23:42:40 red? 23:42:47 a red one 23:42:53 by all means go ahead... 23:43:02 shachaf: changing it before the month starts by HackEgo's time is scow, of course. 23:43:08 agreed 23:43:14 it'll just make me even more glad that I'm filtering colors. 23:43:53 `learn The password of the month is johansen 23:46:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:46:28 hmm, what now? 23:46:31 `learn_append int-e Hen gillar inte färger. 23:46:35 Learned 'int-e': int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger. 23:47:19 * oerjan is pleased to have spelled that correctly before checking 23:47:42 hmm, "he does not approve of colors"? 23:47:53 or just "like"? 23:48:48 Hen kommer att spränga solen? 23:48:49 mostly the latter 23:49:09 heute die Welt, morgen das Sonnensystem 23:49:22 `? password 23:49:24 The password of the month is au cœur de septembre 23:50:10 `cwlprits password 23:50:18 fizzie evilipse oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan gamemanj int-e oerjan int-e oerjan mroman oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_ 23:51:22 i was not aware of the approve meaning. i have a hunch it might be archaic or very formal. any swedes who can tell? 23:51:30 What would a binary absolute value be like... 23:51:35 Is there anything even remotely like that? 23:51:42 The same as the regular one. 23:51:44 (binary as in arity, not as in base) 23:52:19 sounds unintuitive. 23:52:54 So you mean dyadic rather than monadic. 23:52:57 although if you want a real number result, that's just a "norm". 23:52:59 Yes 23:53:10 oerjan: It does, but if there's anything remotely like it it'd be nice. 23:53:44 then you would interpret the two arguments as a point in the plane. 23:54:19 euclidean norm is pretty common, and the same as complex absolute value. 23:54:26 Gonwild is a place for closed, Euclidean Geometric shapes to exchange their nth terms for karma; showing off their edges in a comfortable environment without pressure. 23:54:29 lmao 23:54:43 lmabo 23:55:34 -!- Menphis has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 23:56:19 I suppose it could be a sort of... relative value? a||b is the distance of a from b without sign? 23:56:32 (making |a| equal to a||0) 23:56:42 "relative" doesn't sound right though... 23:56:47 just check what apl does 23:57:25 Good point... 23:57:39 APL defines ∣B to be absolute value, and A∣B to be residue: B modulo A 23:58:07 hppavilion[1]: well that's just abs(b-a) 23:58:21 oerjan: Well yea 23:58:22 *yes 23:58:28 olsner: hellolsner. are you the Only Swede? 23:58:35 helloily 23:58:39 hellørjan. 23:58:39 It doesn't matter how trivial of a difference it is; a-b is just a+(-b) 23:58:42 ahoily 23:58:46 hppavellon[1]. 23:58:51 there's also FireFly 23:58:58 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/16.03.14 has context for the sun thing (13:51:25 ff.) 23:59:01 (Though whether a-b or -n came first is debatable...) 23:59:05 Firellofly. are you Both Swede? 23:59:11 oerjan: what about FireFly? 23:59:15 (I had to remind myself) 23:59:22 I think so 23:59:25 hppavilion[1]: he's doing a lot of sweding 23:59:29 Ah 23:59:34 Right 23:59:47 oerjan: how sweed of me? 23:59:57 FireFly: do you know if the "approve of" meaning of "gilla" is used in ordinary swedish?