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00:43:14 <moonheart08> nope. i havent even got the disk to boot right >_>
00:45:01 <lambdabot> boily said 13h 57m 33s ago: hellørjan. you really did special case sed -i. bleh! flblblblblbl! :Þ
00:45:29 <oerjan> @tell boily would i lie to you? unless it somehow involved a horrible pun, that is.
00:48:45 <int-e> shachaf: wow, I believe the karma/more interaction was lost in March 2012
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00:55:22 <oerjan> int-e: now i'm wondering how much of the geisterdamen language is nonsense and how much the foglios have actually assigned meaning to... in any case, clearly Eotain now considers this Personal.
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00:57:16 <ais523> that was, somehow, a consequence of letting an extra finger brush on my touchpad
00:57:53 <oerjan> the keys are like right next to each other
00:58:59 <\oren\> I gave each kid about 500 grams of candy
00:59:06 <int-e> oerjan: believe it or not, I have not gotten around to GG yet
00:59:23 <int-e> I had important game to play ;)
00:59:41 <int-e> and now I'm looking at this stupid bot
00:59:57 <oerjan> meanwhile, i haven't got any further than GG. somehow after not getting more than 6-7 hours of sleep for several days, today my body wanted 13.
01:01:52 <oerjan> int-e: i considered making it @quit yesterday instead, but i was too curious how long it would take...
01:02:44 <int-e> 3 hours... but apparently it discards messages to channels that it has left
01:03:12 <oerjan> int-e: well it seemed to get through them slowly nevertheless.
01:03:48 <ais523> int-e: it was sending despite not being in the channel
01:03:56 <ais523> I did a mode -n for a few seconds to check
01:06:18 <oerjan> int-e: otoh the last time i got many @tells at once, i was positively surprised that it _didn't_ drop any (although maybe asking for them in public was a bad move), if that's related it would be nice to keep.
01:06:57 <int-e> no, that's unrelated
01:07:21 <oerjan> because i remember it used to do so.
01:10:29 <int-e> oerjan: https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/commit/d695bbf4b2d805d508107f23dbeb4382f07f9b5a ... you've been very quick to notice ;)
01:11:04 <int-e> anyway I really suspect the karma thing has been broken for several years... but it's hard to be certain.
01:11:34 <oerjan> depends when someone last tried that command... i remember it being used before...
01:11:41 <int-e> (too many indirections in the code for effective archaeology)
01:11:49 <oerjan> and it would be strange if no one did for 4 years.
01:12:30 <oerjan> int-e: is it possible that it always bypassed @more, but that there used to be a _different_ cutoff mechanism that caught it?
01:13:03 <oerjan> i.e. i think you reorganized that sort of stuff at one point
01:13:32 <shachaf> int-e: No, I linked to some logs that had @more for @karma-all in Dec 2012
01:13:54 <shachaf> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-12-29#191333oerjan
01:14:11 <oerjan> (that's why i'm asking about the @tells ... if that was the sort of thing that happened, they could have been changed by the same thing.)
01:14:56 <oerjan> but i guess your github link makes that unlikely.
01:15:30 <oerjan> shachaf: 2012 _was_ several years ago hth
01:15:42 <oerjan> has really no one used the command in between?
01:15:51 <shachaf> int-e: see also http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-04-14
01:16:51 <oerjan> int-e: oh, note http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-12-29#191156lambdabot , that eventually timed out too
01:16:55 <shachaf> Hmm, but see #haskell on 2013-07-11
01:17:24 <shachaf> oerjan: tunes.org took down the old logs htdnh
01:17:39 <oerjan> i think they're archived somewhere?
01:17:47 <shachaf> You can download http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/old/haskell-13.zip if you really want to.
01:18:05 <shachaf> Oh, I bet ircbrowse.net has them.
01:18:20 <shachaf> http://ircbrowse.net/browse/haskell?id=16059990×tamp=1373543230#t1373543230 hth
01:19:32 <oerjan> so the command amassed two separate flaws
01:19:57 <shachaf> I kind of want to exploit this bug while it's still around.
01:20:04 <shachaf> But the only way to do it is to annoy people.
01:20:32 <oerjan> indeed. i noticed it also slows down lambdabot at large
01:20:49 <oerjan> so maybe we should have @quit it
01:21:00 <shachaf> int-e: Does lambdabot auto-restart on @quit?
01:21:12 <shachaf> Also you should add me to the admin list.
01:22:18 <oerjan> shachaf: it does unless you do it twice in quick succession
01:23:08 <oerjan> not entirely sure how quick
01:30:15 <int-e> 5 minutes, apparently
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01:41:38 <FreeFull> Quick, is the syntax for Unefunge the same as for Befunge?
01:43:06 <oerjan> there may be a certain lack of ^ and v
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01:45:13 <oerjan> shachaf: still there hth
01:45:18 <int-e> good question... some sort of internal timeout? I don't know, and it's really too late to figure that out.
01:46:30 <int-e> hmm, no timeout logged though
01:46:40 <shachaf> Interesting that it still generated the line, which is why @more cut it off after 4 lines.
01:46:43 <int-e> there it is: [ERROR] : Main: caught (and ignoring) <<timeout>>
01:46:46 <shachaf> I was wondering about that.
01:48:16 <int-e> but anyway... this fix should hold for now
01:48:18 <oerjan> does @tell ignore timeouts too?
01:48:30 <oerjan> because it did take some time i recall
01:48:44 <oerjan> in which case it might have the same problem
01:49:10 <oerjan> er @messages etc, i guess
01:52:36 <int-e> no, @messages is different, I believe
01:52:49 <int-e> but I really can't think straight anymore, need sleep, see yoyu
01:52:58 <quintopia> that hello world in seed is pretty fun
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02:38:18 <zzo38> Target player sacrifices a nontoken nonland permanent of your choice. Choose a nonland permanent card from the sacrificed permanent's owner's graveyard and put that card onto the battlefield under the control of the sacrificed permanent's controller.
02:39:11 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, the set of all sets that do not contain themselves is just the set of all sets
02:39:37 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I think in some theories sets can contain themself
02:40:07 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Various axioms, most importantly the "sets never contain themselves" axiom?
02:40:19 <shachaf> is that an attempt at humour
02:41:01 <hppavilion[1]> It's an attempt at humor like being bald is a hair color, like abstinence is a sex act, etc.
02:41:16 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Did he-who-shall-be-named invent abstinence? )
02:42:27 <zzo38> It has been said that like atheist to be religion is like being bald is hair color.
02:43:15 <hppavilion[1]> It's weird to me that people reject blackboard bold as distinct from bold, and advise that normal bold be used in typeset works
02:43:55 <zzo38> Blackboard bold is more distinct anyways isn't it?
02:43:59 <hppavilion[1]> It seems like it'd be better to use BB exclusively, because it's more visually distinct from normal letters than CB (which is just "the same letter, but thicker")
02:44:45 <zzo38> But it depend what is being written, what kind of format is appropriate for it.
02:45:52 <hppavilion[1]> At the very least, BB should be used for |Reals, |Naturals, |Zintegers, and |Qationals because that's what we all recognize
02:46:25 <zzo38> In those cases yes you should use the blackboard bold
02:46:30 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Fraktur is nice too, to indicate separate things
02:47:29 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Isn't that more like Anciente ſcriptur Boulde?
02:47:43 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I think of BB as indicating certain "ubersets"- the big, important ones; like reals, naturals, integers, and primes
02:48:00 <zzo38> The standard Computer Modern fonts do not have blackboard bold, but does include calligraphic letters
02:48:14 <hppavilion[1]> So they should *definitely* be used for those, and for non-universal things they should be limited to the VERY important sets
02:48:17 <zzo38> So, you can add extra fonts if you want blackboard bold or fraktur fonts
02:48:37 <hppavilion[1]> Though, for the set of boolean values I like to write a T+F amalgamation :D
02:49:31 <hppavilion[1]> There should also be a standard symbol for irrational numbers, IMO
02:49:44 <shachaf> subobject classifers are no joke, yo
02:50:10 <hppavilion[1]> I've seen J| used, by analogy that Q is 10 from the end of the English alphabet and J is 10 after the beginning, and |Q and J| are disjoint
02:50:44 <zzo38> How are you going to write a T+F amalgamation; you can add it into a font by use of METAFONT if you like to do so, though.
02:52:04 <shachaf> @google fairbairn threshold
02:52:05 <lambdabot> https://www.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2012-February/017548.html
02:52:07 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Are you asking what a T+F amalgamation looks like or how I plan to put it in a computer?
02:52:23 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Both
02:52:23 <shachaf> google.com is one of the ""hidden gems"" of the internet
02:53:01 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It looks like a T with a shorter tick on the left coming from the middle, like in the letter "F" (but with the other side of the "hat")
02:53:26 <zzo38> But, by use of METAFONT you can make fonts out of whatever shapes you want.
02:53:32 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I didn't know whether it was a real thing, or even a pun
02:53:33 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Ah, OK
02:54:16 <alercah> what's a good name for a data structure which encodes proofs of correctness?
02:54:23 <alercah> like a map that does this is a ? map
02:55:05 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: I do not understand. Is it like a... yeah, no idea
02:55:22 <hppavilion[1]> I was going to say "Bloom filter", but that's not what you're asking
02:55:37 <alercah> so like, a normal map provides you with guarantees like "if you insert (k, v), then (k, v) is in the map"
02:55:55 <alercah> I'm writing an interface for maps that provide proofs of such properties in Idris
02:56:09 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: You might like something like "JuryMap" ("jury" because it's proven correct)
02:56:39 <hppavilion[1]> "Jury" could be replaced with "Judge" depending on whether this is Japan
02:56:54 <hppavilion[1]> (In Japan, cases are decided by the judge; no jury is present. Like fascists.)
02:57:56 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: Not a joke though. That's actually pretty good; you'd have to leave a comment to say what it does, obviously, but after that people will immediately make the connection and it will be easy to remember
02:58:47 <ais523> alercah: "certified" is the usual adjective, I believe
02:59:05 <ais523> i.e. a certified compiler is a compiler that's been proven to implement the language it claims to implement
02:59:28 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Japan recently added a system of lay judges...
02:59:44 <alercah> some European nations have judge-alone trials, no?
02:59:48 <ais523> (need the backslashes, otherwise if the s/// is interpreted as global we'd have a compe.g.)
03:00:13 <ais523> alercah: the UK does if the stakes are sufficiently low
03:00:16 <pikhq> For severe crimes *now* in Japan, you are tried before 6 members of the lay population and 3 professional judges.
03:00:27 <alercah> ais523: but I think the entire system in e.g. Italy is judge-alone
03:00:30 <alercah> since it's not adversarial
03:00:37 <pikhq> To be found guilty you need to be found guilty by a majority of the judges.
03:00:52 <pikhq> (also, Japan does not have an adversarial court system)
03:01:08 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Ah, yes, of course judge-only is OK for REALLY minor things (e.g. parking tickets)
03:01:11 <ais523> I think the reason behind adversarial is that it's hard to trust people to present the case in an unbiased way, so you ask two people to present it with opposite biases
03:01:41 <alercah> I accidentally opened the clock in tmux
03:01:45 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, but then the moment there's a third way of looking at it...
03:01:58 <shachaf> "I'll be judge, I'll be jury," Said cunning old Fury: "I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death."
03:02:08 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: here the right to a jury trial applies only when the maximum punishment is above 2 years
03:02:31 <alercah> shachaf: is Fury a church?
03:02:54 <shachaf> alercah: Apparently Fury is a pooch.
03:12:15 <zzo38> Is this good: Zeux Agem's Evil Clone {BGR} Legendary Creature - Bat Wizard (1/1) ;; Flying, Protection from legendary, Bands with other legendary creatures ;; {6}, {T}: Destroy target permanent. ;; [["You eat with your left hand!" - Zeux Agem to his evil clone]]
03:12:36 <HackEgo> [U+03BB GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMDA]
03:16:19 <ais523> zzo38: I'm trying to work it out
03:16:37 <ais523> my guess is that the lack of haste makes it nonviable in most formats
03:16:47 <ais523> as it can't do anything the turn you play it, and has no protection against removal
03:17:15 <ais523> also you need to play it alongside large legendary creatures, or have 6+ mana, to have any real benefit
03:17:25 <zzo38> You are correct about those things at least
03:17:33 <ais523> that said, the tap ability is very powerful if the game goes long
03:17:49 <ais523> and it stays in play somehow
03:17:58 <ais523> I just can't figure out what sort of decks you'd be able to pull that off /against/
03:18:18 <ais523> aggro decks will win first, and most other decks will have a bunch of spot removal or counterspells
03:18:34 <ais523> (combo decks will win first, have spot removal, /and/ have counterspells)
03:18:40 <zzo38> I can change it of course if needed
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03:18:47 <ais523> (and don't care much about having their permanents destroyed or being attacked by a 1/1)
03:19:32 <ais523> like, banding doesn't help much against a combo deck because they don't like to block anyway
03:19:35 <zzo38> Zeux Agem has the same converted mana cost (but different colors; should it be the same?), supertype, type, subtype, and converted mana cost as this card.
03:20:55 <ais523> well, Evil Twin is UB colours
03:21:01 <ais523> `card-by-name Evil Twin
03:21:02 <HackEgo> Evil Twin \ 2UB \ Creature -- Shapeshifter \ 0/0 \ You may have Evil Twin enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature on the battlefield except it gains "{U}{B}, {T}: Destroy target creature with the same name as this creature." \ ISD-R
03:22:15 <ais523> I think banding is probably out of colour, it's nearly always white
03:22:27 <zzo38> Yes, that I believe
03:22:43 <ais523> protection from legendary is blue under what the color pie rules are stated as (however, that rule was never actually used, because Wizards stopped using protection before they ever created such a card)
03:23:00 <ais523> flying is normally blue but can also be white or black (or on very large creatures, red)
03:23:08 <zzo38> Maybe it should be the same {1WU} as the original I don't know?
03:23:09 <ais523> destroying a permanent is BG or BW
03:23:32 <ais523> although it's sometimes seen on colourless cards at a very high cost
03:28:54 <ais523> yes, but I've only seen that when the card itself is also colourless
03:29:04 <ais523> not sure if you can do that on a coloured card or not
03:30:16 <shachaf> Are there British MTG cards that spell "color" with a u?
03:31:00 <zzo38> I don't really care about that, because I am not WotC. But changes could still be made to what I wrote if it would help to improve it, anyways.
03:31:45 <zzo38> So, your ideas can help anyways.
03:33:20 <zzo38> What is an operation supposed to be called if f(x);f(y) and f(x+y) are going to be the same operation?
03:33:46 <shachaf> No, that doesn't make sense.
03:33:52 <ais523> sequential composition, I guess?
03:33:53 <zzo38> No, it is like in C
03:34:15 <zzo38> It is an impure operation
03:34:25 <ais523> zzo38: in this case, the argument to f is a repeat count, I think? I don't think it can be anything else
03:34:38 <shachaf> Well, you can make it pure by adding a state argument.
03:34:53 <shachaf> So f is a monoid action or something.
03:34:54 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, you can have that
03:34:57 <ais523> right, because following these defintiions, f(3) = f(1); f(1); f(1)
03:36:16 <zzo38> ais523: But depending on the operation it might not require natural numbers; they may work with any nonnegative real numbers, with any real numbers, or with any complex numbers, even. And they might do more than just to increment a counter.
03:36:53 <zzo38> (For example, if f is a function that is supposed to be called to specify that a given amount of time has passed; the amount of time might not necessarily be an integer.)
03:37:12 <shachaf> I guess that doesn't matter, given that it modifies arbitrary state anyway.
03:38:01 <oerjan> . o O ( is there a UB card that makes demons fly out of your nose? )
03:38:31 <zzo38> Probably not; are you going to make a UB card with demons in your nose?
03:38:50 <zzo38> I like that idea I can add that to uncards.txt
03:42:00 <oerjan> gah did i accidentally press end in the log window - now where was i...
03:42:37 <zzo38> Demons In Your Nose {UB} Instant ;; If there are any Demons in your nose, you may cast them. Each of those spells gains flying.
03:46:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50069&oldid=50066 * Oerjan * (+52) Order, I said! Or was that another page...
03:46:11 <oerjan> apparently i was editing.
03:46:53 <ais523> it's disappointing seeing so many people failing to follow the instructions
03:47:03 <ais523> but we have to draw the line between humans and spambots somewhere
03:50:58 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Sometimes, a human is- for the purposes of the internet- basically a spambot
03:51:37 <ais523> zzo38: I think the correct template is "Each of those cards gains flying as you cast it"
03:51:59 <ais523> not 100% sure, though, you might need to say "spells" rather than "cards"
03:53:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50070&oldid=50069 * Oerjan * (+6) This obviously needs bolding too
03:54:13 <hppavilion[1]> I have generated a list of every English 4-letter word of the form CVCC, CCVC, CVVC, CVCV, VCVC, or VCCV
03:54:33 <oerjan> someone just failed 5 times in a row at that particular point
03:56:03 <oerjan> ais523: eventually the whole instruction will be bold, and we can cycle back hth
03:56:26 <ais523> I was wondering about that
03:56:45 <ais523> actually I fear for the future of the Internet at the point when bots become better at CAPTCHAs than humans do
03:57:34 <ais523> actually, I had a vision of a company that you can pay money for accounts on, then use those accounts to sign into other services, and it's up to you whether you connect them or not
03:57:55 <ais523> the payment of money is used in lieu of a captcha, if someone's found to be spamming through an account than it can be cancelled
03:58:06 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I'm pretty sure we have those, and they don't require money- oh, the money, I see
03:58:11 <ais523> many large websites (e.g. google, yahoo) are using cellphone numbers for the same purpose
03:58:17 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's when they become better than humans at following instructions we've got problems
03:58:26 <ais523> computers are already better than humans at following instructions
03:58:30 <oerjan> (clearly they already beat _some_ humans)
03:58:35 <ais523> however, humans are better than computers at /understanding/ instructions
03:58:50 <ais523> following them, however, is the entire purpose of a computer
03:58:56 <ais523> computers can't /not/ follow instructions, it's what they're for
03:59:06 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Yes, exactly. Computers are the best instruction-followers, humans are the best at figuring out what the instructions *are* (and in some cases, giving them to the computer)
03:59:21 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: The cell phones are annoying for me, because I don't have a cell phone
03:59:23 <ais523> (and the normal way to attack/exclude a computer is to find a loophole in the instructions it was given)
03:59:27 <shachaf> Computers can not follow instructions, for example with hardware errors.
03:59:42 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I don't have a cellphone but my router does
03:59:52 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: The difference in english (at least logically) between "can not" and "cannot" has always bugged me
03:59:56 <shachaf> Is there an esoteric language based on hardware errors?
04:00:06 <shachaf> I know about https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/papers/memerr.pdf , which is pretty neat.
04:00:09 <ais523> you should call it rowhammer
04:00:16 <hppavilion[1]> I feel like we should have "cant" as one word, rather than "can't" contracting "cannot"
04:00:32 <zzo38> I think it is a different word
04:00:34 <ais523> "cant"'s already a word, but it means something else and is pronounced differently
04:00:56 <shachaf> They write a JVM program that gets compiled into code which is very likely to violate the sandbox constraints if a single bit is flipped.
04:01:13 <shachaf> Then they heat up the computer (which is supposed to be a secure computer of some sort) until a bit is flipped.
04:01:21 <shachaf> Or something like that, I don't remembe the details.
04:03:39 <ais523> they're aiming for one particular bit, I think
04:06:06 <oerjan> iirc it's one particular bit in an object, but they have _many_ of those objects.
04:06:19 <oerjan> to increase the probability.
04:07:39 <oerjan> making those bits as large a fraction of memory as possible.
04:08:27 <oerjan> also when i read about it it may only have worked at memories without error correction?
04:10:43 -!- jeffl35 has changed nick to jeff-the-killer.
04:11:27 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But that leads to an issue where, assuming the rest of the object code is more than a bit long, it's much more likely for an important bit to be flipped than that important one, is it not?
04:11:34 <oerjan> oh we do have a halloween topic
04:11:38 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it COULD be an error, especially on something Googly
04:12:53 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it is likely to just crash, indeed. i don't remember how clever they were about reducing that.
04:13:35 <oerjan> it may be that they actually could flip nearly any bit in that object. not sure.
04:13:53 <pikhq> shachaf: This sounds like a much less practical version of Rowhammer.
04:14:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's probably that it just only needs to work once, and you run it on a million servers so that loln makes one work and then you win
04:14:58 * oerjan should look at that pdf instead of guessing
04:16:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hm the intro says the exploit has about 70% chance of working
04:17:50 <pikhq> Sure, and probably also a bit less hardware-specific.
04:18:24 <pikhq> Something tells me that sort of bit flipping trick more has to do with the properties of DRAM in general.
04:23:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's in fact any bit of most of the objects, see page 2. the object fields are nearly all pointers, and as long as the changed pointer is anywhere within nearly any of them, they can exploit it.
04:24:42 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... S is a set where |ℕ| < |S| < |ℝ|. Provide either (a) an example of S or (b) a proof that S is impossible
04:25:30 <HackEgo> [U+2115 DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL N] [U+211D DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL R]
04:25:59 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Naturals and Reals; I couldn't do the standard |N and |R in this context because it wouldn't parse right
04:26:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_hypothesis hth
04:26:32 <shachaf> you could just write N and R like everyone else instead of trying to show off hth
04:26:54 <ais523> shachaf: I tried to use Unicode for labels in my CALESYTA language
04:26:59 -!- shachaf has left.
04:27:02 <ais523> the interp handles it fine, unfortunately the editor doesn't
04:27:23 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: double-struck N and R is nailed into my mind; using normal N and R just looks wrong, like they shouldn't be representing something so important
04:27:44 <pikhq> I think most of us read TeX here.
04:28:19 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Huh, I seem to have remembered that being that cardc = Aleph_1, which is COMPLETELY different
04:28:38 <hppavilion[1]> (...they're equivalent in some bizarre way, aren't they?)
04:28:54 <pikhq> What. N and similar set symbols aren't in normal TeX.
04:29:09 <pikhq> amsfonts fixes it, at least.
04:29:25 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Yes, but only for N, Z, R, and maybe Q iirc
04:29:52 <ais523> $\left\|\mathbb{N}\right\|$
04:30:34 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I usually just type \bb{string} to indicate what it is without actually making a whole system
04:30:35 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Uh, $\mathbb{N}_{>0}$
04:31:03 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: aleph-1 = 2 to the power of the number of integers, by definition; it's also very easy to prove it's equal to the number of reals
04:31:40 <ais523> (err, this is to what extent "=" is defined on infinities)
04:31:47 <hppavilion[1]> (it does. I was trying to explain countable vs. uncountable infinity to an 11 year old earlier today, and that came up. Somehow)
04:32:30 <hppavilion[1]> Really, I feel like blackboard bold shouldn't be in unicode, it should just be a font (within a typeface)
04:33:06 <hppavilion[1]> So I can have a blackboard bold ſ (long s) or ð (eth) or @ (at sign) >:D.
04:34:32 <oerjan> ais523: you recall incorrectly, what you are describing is beth-1.
04:34:50 <oerjan> (or possibly you read from a wrong source, i believe those exist)
04:34:57 <ais523> oerjan: I thought that beth-1 was the second-smallest infinity
04:35:04 <oerjan> no. the other way around.
04:35:07 <ais523> it is possible that I was taught backwards
04:35:08 <pikhq> Apparently the rationale was to permit maintaining symbol distinctions in mathematic notation in plain text.
04:35:42 <pikhq> i.e. it was viewed that the symbol variants here were *semantic*, not just style variants.
04:36:01 <pikhq> So we've got the opposite of CJK unification because of the same rules.
04:36:05 <oerjan> ais523: well after that thing i read in the logs it's good to get out of my "don't be stupid, ais523 is always right" vibe ;)
04:37:26 <ais523> yes, being educated when I'm wrong is helpful
04:38:27 <oerjan> hm although i'm wondering if they're still equivalent with AoC. it might be that there could be no cardinality strictly between |N| and |R|, without the latter being aleph-1 because R isn't well-orderable.
04:38:52 <ais523> Wikipedia says that many textbooks assume the continuum hypothesis
04:38:55 <oerjan> (aleph-1 is the second-smallest infinite _well-orderable_ cardinal, by definition)
04:39:10 <ais523> in which case aleph-1 and beth-1 are interchangeable; that'd explain the amount of misinformation going around
04:39:43 <oerjan> some might even assume the generalized CH, in which case all alephs are beths
04:41:18 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: anyway, if you have AoC, then every infinite cardinality is an aleph, and alephs are always well ordered so aleph-1 is the next after aleph-0=|N|
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04:42:15 <oerjan> and therefore there is nothing between aleph-0 and aleph-1, but something between aleph-0 and anything larger than aleph-1.
04:42:32 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: I've also considered writing |N as NN or \NN, |R as RR or \RR, etc.
04:43:05 <hppavilion[1]> Also interesting, apparently 2^|N has the same cardinality as |R, so there's a weird bijection here somewhere that I must find
04:43:16 <ais523> oerjan: does the axiom of choice imply that infinities are well-ordered? I'm guessing not
04:43:40 <ais523> hmm, it wouldn't surprise me if there were at least countably infinitely many well-ordered infinities before they started becoming badly odered
04:48:06 <oerjan> <ais523> > cos 208341 <-- * briefly wonders if that's somehow a clue to ais523's hello world program
04:48:16 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: If you have too many well-ordered infinities in one place, it starts to smell bad hth
04:48:19 <ais523> nah, I was reading random PPCG pages again
04:48:44 <ais523> it was intended for a programming language in which "cos" was implemented as a single byte
04:49:00 <ais523> the point being that deleting any byte makes the output longer than "-1"
04:49:18 <oerjan> ais523: yes it does imply that. AoC ~ "every set can be well ordered".
04:49:48 <ais523> oerjan: oh, I didn't just mean the ability to put them in an order
04:49:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hint: binary expansions
04:49:58 <ais523> I mean the ability to compare them too, i.e. put them in /sorted/ order
04:50:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I had a feeling that was going to be related
04:50:20 <ais523> infinities strike me as the sort of things that are sometimes incomparable
04:50:25 <oerjan> ais523: the class of well-orderings is well ordered. you don't even need AoC for that.
04:51:05 <oerjan> s/well-orderings/ordinals/
04:51:33 <ais523> I guess I should have guessed that
04:52:46 <ais523> I actually haven't been working on my hello world
04:53:02 <ais523> because of wanting to clear my mind for an upcoming NetHack tournament
04:53:20 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you can easily get _injections_ between |R and 2^|N, both ways, just by looking at binary expansion. a bijection requires some more care, or you can use the sledgehammer of the schröder-bernstein theorem.
04:53:27 <ais523> my current thinking is that I might not be able to get the apparently simpler O(n²) version to work, so I'm going to have to go for the more complex O(n log n) version
04:54:40 <ais523> incidentally, in machine code, hello world is O(n log n) because the longer your string gets, the larger the word size of the system has to be in order to allow for all the addresses in the string
04:54:50 <ais523> meaning that you need to give a longer address to the function that does the printing
04:54:50 <hppavilion[1]> The other day, I decided to prove change-of-base in my precalc class. My teacher had apparently never proven it (or possibly even seen a proof) herself. I was sad.
04:55:11 <ais523> (independently of that, it's O(n log n) if you're storing the length of the string rather than using a null terminator)
04:55:30 <ais523> unless you're using a loop
04:55:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: my favourite proof that I worked out myself in a maths lesson
04:56:17 <oerjan> ais523: btw AoC is also equivalent to "all cardinalities are comparable", this follows easily from the fact that for any set, there exists an ordinal not smaller than it.
04:56:33 <ais523> was the proof that sum(1..n)² = sum(1³...n³)
04:56:57 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I was not aware that was a thing. Oh my god please tell me it's a thing and that you didn't just mess something up
04:57:04 <ais523> I found a proof that not only proves that that's true, but explains why
04:57:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the proof of the schröder-bernstein theorem is actually quite pretty and not that hard hth
04:57:33 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: nah, often the result comes out but you don't quite understand how you got there
04:57:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: imagine a times table, like a primary school times table; the value in cell (x,y) is x×y
04:58:29 <ais523> if we assume the thing is square (they usually are), the sum of all the elements in the table is sum(1…n)²
04:58:44 <ais523> because you get the times table if you multiply the sum out
04:59:13 <ais523> now consider the l-shaped rows you get if you read along the kth row and kth column until they intersect
04:59:28 <hppavilion[1]> (Writing sum(1..n) got boring at some point, so now I usually write "the sum of all integers between a and b (inclusive)" as a(+ with umlaut)b)
04:59:29 <ais523> e.g. with k=3, we have 1×3, 2×3, 3×3, 3×2, 3×1
04:59:59 <ais523> every element of the table belongs to one of those L shapes
05:00:11 <ais523> (you take the maximum of the coordinates, that's the shape it belongs to)
05:00:22 <ais523> we can rearrange this as 3×(1+2+3+2+1)
05:00:49 <ais523> and likewise, in general, the sum of the kth L shape is k×(sum(1..k..1))
05:01:15 <ais523> then if you imagine a k by k square, and pick a particular direction of diagonal
05:01:26 <ais523> then the diagonals have lengths 1 up to k then back down to 1, and each element's on exactly one diagonal
05:01:44 <ais523> thus sum(1..k..1) is k², and k×(sum(1..k..1)) is thus k³
05:02:40 <ais523> (I'm aware other people have proved this too, but I came up with this proof by myself and think it's really pretty; I'm not sure what proofs other people used)
05:06:53 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I prefer to do all my proofs in über-dense notation with minimal use of language, with the idea being that as long as you understand the more basic parts of notation, you understand the math
05:07:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Which is why I'm annoyed when there are phrases with no symbolic equivalent)
05:10:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think your proof aesthetic is rather the opposite of most :P
05:11:55 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If a computer couldn't read and verify it given adequate description of its form (which should be, at its basis, as simple as possible), it doesn't count
05:12:03 <oerjan> ais523: i vaguely recall there's an even more geometric proof of that...
05:12:27 <ais523> would be great if it involved volume somehow but I don't immediately see how it can
05:12:39 <ais523> the number of dimensions doesn't add up
05:12:47 <oerjan> it might be 4-dimensional.
05:13:31 <oerjan> build a four-dimensional pyramid with cube layers
05:13:46 <oerjan> and then there might be another way to slice it
05:15:02 <ais523> you know how you can form a rectangle from two lines at right angles to each other?
05:15:23 <ais523> you should be able to form a 4-dimensional hypersolid from two two-dimensional shapes at right angles to each other
05:15:35 <ais523> make those both triangles, and I think you have your proof?
05:15:37 <oerjan> yes. that's what i was thinking of, in fact.
05:15:39 <ais523> but it's hard to visualise
05:15:48 <ais523> because it has more dimensions than people are used to working with
05:16:09 <oerjan> however, you can write it as a set of 4-tuples
05:16:31 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, the jokes SMBC makes in this stretch about physicists where small values can be ignored are kind of flawed
05:16:43 <hppavilion[1]> He should really be going for... that one equation
05:16:44 <oerjan> {(x,y,z,w) | x<=y, w<=z, 1 <= x,y,w,z <= n}
05:16:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
05:17:14 <hppavilion[1]> What was it, (exp . abs . log)? Yeah, that looks right
05:17:51 * oerjan tends to read SMBC in large batches
05:17:57 <oerjan> it's the only comic i do that with
05:18:18 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: "this stretch" happened 3 years ago, so...
05:18:31 <oerjan> well not that large :P
05:18:45 <oerjan> it may be a month since last time, perhaps even less.
05:18:54 <oerjan> also i haven't read it all from the start.
05:18:55 <hppavilion[1]> It's only negligible if its shaval (occasionally EML) is close to 1
05:19:11 <oerjan> which may also be unusual for me and webcomics
05:19:57 <hppavilion[1]> Multiplicatively, shaval is used for smallness; additively, you just use |x|
05:20:09 <oerjan> did i say w<=z i meant z<=w. not that it really matters.
05:20:24 <oerjan> now to find the cubes in that.
05:21:09 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, a better equation here would be \x -> (sgn x) * (exp . abs . log . abs) x, so negative values are defined
05:21:52 <ais523> oerjan: I'm not sure how you can even distinguish the z coordinate from the w coordinate, given that a) I don't think 4D space has defined axes yet and b) even if it did, nothing specified what orientation the hyperpyramid had
05:22:56 <oerjan> ais523: well you usually choose some order :P
05:23:05 <oerjan> it's isomorphic any way
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05:25:16 -!- otherbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:39:42 <oerjan> `slwd testing//testing etc.
05:39:43 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: can't find label for jump to `esting'
05:39:50 <oerjan> `slwd testing//1ctesting etc.
05:39:52 <HackEgo> wisdom/testing//testing etc.
05:40:04 <HackEgo> sled "wisdom/$1" | sed '1s/^Rosebud!$/Roswbud!/'
05:40:51 <oerjan> `mkx bin/slwd//cd wisdom; sled "$1" | sed '1s/^Rosebud!$/Roswbud!/'
05:41:11 <oerjan> `slwd testing//1ctesting again
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05:41:43 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, what's the (A(A)) in panel 3 of http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-01-01 ?
05:41:44 -!- augur has joined.
05:42:04 <oerjan> hm i guess it actually did that before. well, looks nicer.
05:53:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
06:01:10 <hppavilion[1]> The votey in http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-03-11 is just e=0
06:02:45 <oerjan> <shachaf> it'll be ok <-- huh, i didn't see that before my recent change, but that fixes it.
06:05:39 <HackEgo> lastfiles "$@" | while read f; do echo -n "$f//"; cat "$f"; done
06:05:51 <HackEgo> hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files}\n" -- "$@"
06:06:18 <oerjan> `` mk 'test1//hi'; mk 'test2//ho'
06:11:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:12:35 <oerjan> `` hg log ----removed -l 1 --template "{join(files),"//"}"
06:12:36 <HackEgo> hg log: option ----removed not recognized \ hg log [OPTION]... [FILE] \ \ show revision history of entire repository or files \ \ options: \ \ -f --follow follow changeset history, or file history across \ copies and renames \ -d --date DATE show revisions matching date spec \ -C --copies
06:12:46 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{join(files),"//"}"
06:12:47 <HackEgo> hg: parse error at 13: syntax error
06:13:04 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template '{join(files),"//"}'
06:13:05 <HackEgo> hg: parse error: unknown method 'list'
06:13:23 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template '{join(files,"//")}'
06:13:24 <HackEgo> ** unknown exception encountered, please report by visiting \ ** http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BugTracker \ ** Python 2.7.3 (default, Jan 2 2013, 13:56:14) [GCC 4.7.2] \ ** Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ ** Extensions loaded: \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/hg", line 38, in <module> \ mercurial.dis
06:14:58 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{join(files,'//')}"
06:15:00 <HackEgo> ** unknown exception encountered, please report by visiting \ ** http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BugTracker \ ** Python 2.7.3 (default, Jan 2 2013, 13:56:14) [GCC 4.7.2] \ ** Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ ** Extensions loaded: \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/hg", line 38, in <module> \ mercurial.dis
06:15:25 <oerjan> i guess HackEgo's hg is too old :/
06:16:20 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files}"
06:17:37 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|addbreaks}"
06:17:38 <HackEgo> ** unknown exception encountered, please report by visiting \ ** http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BugTracker \ ** Python 2.7.3 (default, Jan 2 2013, 13:56:14) [GCC 4.7.2] \ ** Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ ** Extensions loaded: \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/hg", line 38, in <module> \ mercurial.dis
06:18:04 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|count}"
06:18:05 <HackEgo> hg: parse error: unknown function 'count'
06:18:52 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|firstline}"
06:18:53 <HackEgo> ** unknown exception encountered, please report by visiting \ ** http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BugTracker \ ** Python 2.7.3 (default, Jan 2 2013, 13:56:14) [GCC 4.7.2] \ ** Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ ** Extensions loaded: \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/hg", line 38, in <module> \ mercurial.dis
06:19:09 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|firstline}" | paste
06:19:13 <HackEgo> ** unknown exception encountered, please report by visiting \ ** http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BugTracker \ ** Python 2.7.3 (default, Jan 2 2013, 13:56:14) [GCC 4.7.2] \ ** Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 2.2.2) \ ** Extensions loaded: \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/usr/bin/hg", line 38, in <module> \ mercurial.dis
06:19:40 <oerjan> `` mk 'test1//ho'; mk 'test2//hi'
06:19:46 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|firstline}" &| paste
06:19:47 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: syntax error near unexpected token `|' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: `hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|firstline}" &| paste'
06:20:19 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{files|firstline}" 2>&1 | paste
06:20:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.26792
06:22:14 <oerjan> `` mk 'test1//hi'; mk 'test2//ho'
06:22:34 <oerjan> `` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{join(files,'//')}" 2>&1 | paste
06:22:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.7448
06:29:30 <oerjan> <ais523> BF's the most popular <-- also featured on the wiki for 3 years straight hth
06:29:42 <zzo38> One part of a book I have mentions if a charged capacitor can discharge through an inductive circuit, that it decays exponentially with time, and the decay can be monotonic or oscillatory depending on if the solutions to the quadratic equation are real or complex.
06:29:47 <ais523> unless you're volunteering to feature a new one :-P
06:29:54 <ais523> maybe we can feature the CALESYTA winner once it wins
06:30:06 <ais523> assuming someone writes a sufficiently good article
06:30:16 <zzo38> I have also noticed before that a low pass filter with a complex coefficient will also oscillate. Is it related at all?
06:30:33 <oerjan> ais523: if you win, will you write the blurb? ;P
06:39:00 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, why did you do that to slwd?
06:39:35 <oerjan> shachaf: well originally i was just confusing myself into thinking that it had been affect by my bin/sed
06:39:59 <oerjan> then after i realized it wasn't i thought it's ok
06:40:13 <oerjan> it makes it slightly shorter
06:40:36 <shachaf> I guess it can make sense.
06:41:48 <oerjan> except you still cannot get sed to do anything useful on a non-existing or empty file.
06:47:41 <shachaf> Maybe we should switch from sed to perl or something.
06:48:18 <oerjan> but that's longer to type
06:48:43 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access tmp: No such file or directory
06:50:34 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed -i "$value" "$key" ;
06:51:50 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/sed: Bourne-Again shell script, ASCII text executable
06:51:54 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $# == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi
06:52:01 <HackEgo> 9512:2016-10-29 <oerjän> sled bin/sed//3d \ 9510:2016-10-29 <oerjän> ` mv bin/sed2 bin/sed \ 9502:2016-10-29 <oerjän> ` mv bin/sed bin/sed2 \ 9501:2016-10-29 <oerjän> sled bin/sed//2c/bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $* == "3" -a "$1" == "-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi \ 9499:2016-10-29 <oerjän> sled bin/sed//1i#!/bin/bash \ 9497:2016-10-
06:52:40 <oerjan> shachaf: boily insisted on using `` sed -i to edit wisdom. i got annoyed hth
06:53:29 <oerjan> it basically makes it write the result for sed -i <script> <file> commands.
06:53:41 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
06:54:11 <oerjan> (also now `sled doesn't need to do it)
06:54:32 <shachaf> shadowing built-in programs is confusing tdnh
06:54:56 <oerjan> shachaf: i suspected what happened to tmp/ was that someone did a mass rm the other day. it probably got caught by the canary but tmp/ wasn't restored.
06:55:27 <shachaf> maybe tmp/ should be in version control
06:55:35 <shachaf> to avoid accidents like that
06:55:58 <oerjan> the only reason to have tmp/ is for it not to be
06:55:59 <shachaf> `` echo ^canary >> .hgignore
06:56:26 <HackEgo> cat: canary: No such file or directory
06:56:58 <HackEgo> cat: canary: No such file or directory
06:57:03 <HackEgo> canary//cat: canary: No such file or directory
06:57:06 <HackEgo> cat: canary: No such file or directory
06:57:14 <shachaf> oh, i shouldn't have spoiled it
06:57:40 <shachaf> `` rm canary; mkdir canary
06:57:43 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': Is a directory \ mkdir: cannot create directory `canary': File exists
06:57:50 <shachaf> `` rm -rf canary; mkdir canary
06:57:58 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^"$(/bin/ls -id /hackenv/wisdom | cut -d\ -f 1)" ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
06:58:35 <shachaf> There, now it won't go away.
07:15:30 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
07:16:03 <oerjan> shachaf: um i'm not sure what you did. also you removed tmp/ ...
07:16:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access tmp: No such file or directory
07:16:20 <shachaf> oerjan: canary/ is the new tmp/ hth
07:17:03 <oerjan> ok you only wanted to protect the directory itself, not the contents.
07:17:23 <shachaf> Well, protecting the contents would be nice, but tricky.
07:19:33 <shachaf> I don't like the name, though.
07:20:09 <shachaf> Now tmp will be restored if canary is deleted.
07:20:18 <shachaf> Also all the scripts that use tmp/ will stop being broken.
07:20:23 <shachaf> I didn't really think it through.
07:20:48 <oerjan> `mk canary/test//hm...
07:21:48 <oerjan> `mk tmp/test//hmmmm...
07:22:48 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': No such file or directory
07:22:59 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access canary: No such file or directory
07:23:29 <oerjan> `learn Testing again...
07:23:31 <HackEgo> Relearned 'testing': Testing again...
07:23:36 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access canary: No such file or directory
07:23:53 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Nov 1 07:22 tmp -> canary
07:24:00 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access canary: No such file or directory
07:24:11 <oerjan> shachaf: your method has problems hth
07:24:58 <shachaf> did i manage to delete canary
07:25:17 <HackEgo> canary: ERROR: cannot open `canary' (No such file or directory)
07:26:03 <shachaf> Oh, but nothing is getting committed now.
07:26:23 <HackEgo> 9595:2016-11-01 <shachäf> ` ln -s canary tmp \ 9594:2016-11-01 <shachäf> mk .hgignore//^canary/ \ 9593:2016-11-01 <shachäf> ` rm canary; mkdir canary \ 9592:2016-11-01 <shachäf> ` echo ^canary >> .hgignore \ 9591:2016-11-01 <oerjän> ` hg log --removed -l 1 --template "{join(files,\'//\')}" 2>&1 | paste \ 9590:2016-11-01 <oerjän> ` mk \'
07:26:59 <oerjan> `learn Testing again...
07:27:02 <HackEgo> Relearned 'testing': Testing again...
07:27:44 <shachaf> for when certain users are being problematic
07:29:15 <oerjan> shachaf: there's a problem though.
07:29:40 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': No such file or directory
07:30:25 <HackEgo> cat: canary: No such file or directory
07:31:11 <HackEgo> Relearned 'testing': Testing
07:31:17 <oerjan> oh it didn't remove canary, it restored that.
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08:15:32 <hppavilion[1]> Most of my computers are the OS default, but my "click" pointer is usually "middle finger, but larger than all the others"
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08:46:45 <hppavilion[1]> Oh my god. I just cleaned my screen and I think it worked.
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10:26:09 <Taneb> Can one talk about an anti-transitive anti-closure
10:30:03 <int-e> sure as long as you don't intend to make any sense
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10:40:17 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 54m 48s ago: would i lie to you? unless it somehow involved a horrible pun, that is.
10:41:51 <boily> @tell oerjan no, you would rather lye to me, and then I would smell something fishy going on.
10:43:35 <Taneb> boily, you can combine lye with tallow in a soap maker's workshop to get soap!
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11:23:46 <boily> “♪ Tanallowe Soap™! Cleans your tanebventions deeper and faster than the other brand! ♪”
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12:59:41 <moony> navet, never seen you before, are you new?
13:00:21 <navet> I've never sen you before either.
13:00:42 <ais523> I've seen moony before, and I think I've seen navet before but I'm too tired to remember
13:00:43 <navet> So it's plausible that one of us is.
13:01:00 <moony> im not new, been around for a while
13:01:11 <moony> not for more than 2 years tho :p
13:01:25 <moony> ask anyone in this channel who is not afk.
13:01:35 <ais523> that said, even if navet hasn't been here before, someone who says "So it's plausible that one of us is." in that context will almost certainly fit right in
13:03:02 * moony goes off to write down a esolang idea he has, altho its implentation would involve solving the Halting Problem
13:03:36 <HackEgo> navet: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
13:04:19 <navet> Is that a rainbow?
13:04:32 <ais523> it's `welcome with rainbow colours
13:04:32 <navet> Nope, not a real rainbow.
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13:27:40 <moony> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uUJvkuB5j6Km6CoxprBmzGzYg0Kp7h-Z13eWx5GJOwE/edit?usp=sharing
13:27:52 <moony> ^ first version of docs on my new little esolang idea
13:33:39 <moony> ais523, what do you think? :)
13:34:20 <ais523> wtf, why does my IRC client have an option to bookmark a link
13:34:24 <ais523> what does that even mean and how did I select it by mistkae
13:34:40 <ais523> also I'll take a look but I'm too tired to give an opinion tha reuqires thought
13:35:54 <ais523> are you sure that's not uncomputable?
13:36:15 <ais523> also using ) to terminate a list that doesn't start with a ( annoys my aesthetic sense
13:37:01 <moony> ais523, this is a halting problem based language :P each cell's value is determined by whether or not the program halts
13:37:58 <moony> a 'wimp mode' of it could be where the value is whether or not the cell has halted yet, which is against the main concept of the language
13:38:03 <ais523> if the language is at least TC, then you can prepend [!1: and append )?] to it and have a program that halts if and only if the original didn't halt
13:38:15 <ais523> thus, if it's at least TC, it's uncomputable
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13:38:55 <ais523> I think it isn't necessarily /impossible/ because like Splinter, each program can only contain finitely many program literals
13:39:29 <ais523> although, no, the fact you can store programs on the tape means you can create a program that halts if and only if it doesn't halt
13:39:39 <ais523> so the language can't actually be implemented at all, even with a halting oracle
13:41:47 <moony> well thats a fun paradox, wonder hwy its not on wikipedia :P
13:45:05 * moony adds that little note to the document
13:45:05 <ais523> it's commonly used to disprove the existence of certain hypothetical programs
13:45:12 <ais523> (i.e. used as the punchline for proofs by contradiction)
13:45:44 <ais523> here's a sample impossible program: !1:[?])[?]
13:46:07 <ais523> that halts if and only if it doesn't halt
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13:50:52 <moony> came up with a esolang concept, well, there is a neat paradox in it if you look up a little
13:51:19 <nvd> I glanced at it
13:51:25 <nvd> But I'm in a lecture right now
13:54:40 <moony> Also, this is just the concept, im willing to take suggustions, but printing isnt very easy in a 'timeless' language where everything runs at once
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14:17:23 <myname> https://mobile.twitter.com/ThePracticalDev/status/792535447956250624 lmao
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14:21:00 <Taneb> ...I made that up on the spot
14:21:10 <Taneb> Turns out it actually exists, thugh
14:21:51 <moony> nice one Taneb :P it is now a tanebvention... maybe. 0.4
14:22:45 <moony> Taneb, im assuming you have time to look at my little esolang document now? :P
14:28:19 * moony wonders if he created the theoretical AND gate program correctly
14:28:33 <moony> [[?!0:[;])!0:[;])!0:[;])!1:[;]][?!0:[])!1:[])]?[?!0:[;])!0:[;])!0:[;])!1:[;]][?!0:[])!1:[])]?!1:[])]
14:31:08 <moony> and if you can make a AND, you can make a NAND, or a NOT, and with a NOT you can make a adder and subtracter.... etc etc, yay computer in HBL
14:32:36 <FireFly> `le/rn fuzzy prolog/Fuzzy Prolog is a Prolog dialect based on fuzzy resolution instead of traditional truth values. Masao Mukaidono et al. invented it, and Taneb made it up on the spot.
14:32:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'fuzzy prolog': Fuzzy Prolog is a Prolog dialect based on fuzzy resolution instead of traditional truth values. Masao Mukaidono et al. invented it, and Taneb made it up on the spot.
14:33:21 <moony> well i think my little example there, in the case of a impossible to run language, is a fair bit of proof for Turing Completeness
14:33:27 <moony> FireFly, what do you think?
14:34:29 <moony> well, heres a link to the theoretical document in case you want to look at it: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uUJvkuB5j6Km6CoxprBmzGzYg0Kp7h-Z13eWx5GJOwE/edit?usp=sharing
14:35:07 <Taneb> moony, not necessarily, you will also need to demonstrate you can access usefully an unbounded amount of memory
14:35:46 * moony makes quick n dirty example of accessing and writing a 1 to every cell on the positive side of the tape
14:40:19 <moony> ibut of course, thats not a useful example
14:41:02 <moony> lets assume that somehow we get a tape filled with '??0' with ? being a random value
14:42:07 <moony> [[[?!0:[;])!0:[;])!0:[;])!1:[;]][?!0:[])!1:[])]?[?!0:[;])!0:[;])!0:[;])!1:[;]][?!0:[])!1:[])]?!1:[])]!0:[;]] would preform a AND on all of those and replace the 0 after the 2 inputs with either a 1 or zero
14:51:50 <moony> people keep telling me i could do more with this concept, i just dont know WHAT to do
14:52:14 <moony> Taneb, what do you think? any idea?
15:07:40 <moony> hello? channel seems dead ):
15:16:11 <moony> made a change to the language, someone pointed out how clunky moving the pointer was, which i wasnt paying attention to for some reason >_>
15:16:20 <moony> the pointer movement commands are now > and <
15:19:09 <moony> yup, channel is dead *flops over dead on the floor*
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17:00:34 <int-e> wtf mozilla... how does one read a .jsonlz4 file?
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17:04:35 <FireFly> presumably a lz-compressed JSON file
17:04:53 <FireFly> lz4cat yourfile.jsonlz4 | jq . ?
17:06:05 <FireFly> brr, it's staring to get cold
17:06:20 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
17:06:25 <lambdabot> CYUL 011600Z 12006KT 080V150 30SM FEW120 BKN150 BKN240 06/01 A3024 RMK AC1AC4CI2 SLP243 \ ENVA 011650Z 13004KT 9999 FEW006 BKN075 02/01 Q1011 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 12006KT \ ESSB 011650Z 09016G27KT
17:06:25 <lambdabot> 5000 -RA BKN008 OVC019 03/02 Q1000 \ KOAK 011653Z 30004KT 10SM SCT015 16/11 A3010 RMK AO2 SLP192 T01560106 PNO \ PAMR 011653Z 00000KT 10SM FEW075 M01/M03 A2920 RMK AO2 SLP888 T10111033
17:06:47 <FireFly> the forecast for friday morning is M07
17:07:01 <int-e> FireFly: I tried that: Error 44 : Unrecognized header : file cannot be decoded
17:07:45 <int-e> I created a new profile and imported the bookmarks...
17:08:05 <int-e> ...but wtf would be wrong with storing them in a format that can actually be read?!
17:09:02 <int-e> (I'm speculating that zimilar to zlib, lz4 supports some header-less "bare" format, and they're using that)
17:09:05 <shachaf> "This file format is in fact just plain LZ4 data with a custom header (magic number [8 bytes] and uncompressed file size [4 bytes, little endian])."
17:10:45 <shachaf> «Do not say, "Why were the old days better than these?" For it is not wise to ask such questions.»
17:12:36 <int-e> no, why use a custom header instead of the one defined by the lz4 file format...
17:12:50 <shachaf> it is not wise to ask such questions hth
17:13:03 <int-e> I'm *complaining*, it's stress relief.
17:15:24 <int-e> shachaf: but thanks for the quote
17:16:14 <shachaf> The quote is from https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/3offju/jsonlz4_file/ which also has a bunch of links.
17:16:26 <shachaf> Unless you meant the other one, which is from Ecclesiastes 7:10
17:16:35 <int-e> shachaf: google does reverse lookup of quotes fairly well. hence the thanks.
17:19:39 <int-e> (the script works)
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17:56:13 <int-e> (fwiw, looking at the code there is no sign of the uncompressed file size...)
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18:37:31 <hppavilion[2]> Is there a name for "a perfect nonzero natural power of a prime"?
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19:23:26 <Draconiator> Been thinking it would be interesing to make a language based on MtG keywords. http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Keyword_ability
19:38:40 <moonythedwarf> i made a new esolang concept: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uUJvkuB5j6Km6CoxprBmzGzYg0Kp7h-Z13eWx5GJOwE/edit?usp=sharing
19:39:19 <Draconiator> that would look for the Number 2, and create it if it doesn't find it.
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22:12:52 <HackEgo> Moon is a murderous lunatic, not an unretroreflectorey object. He sometimes causes overmoonification.
22:13:18 <boily> moony: what do you think of the sun?
22:15:27 <olsner> is that a happy screeeee or an angry screeeee?
22:16:23 <boily> moony: what are your approximative geographic coördinates and body weigh?
22:17:03 <boily> @tell hppavilion[1] hppavellon[1]. you still haven't called me.
22:17:25 <int-e> . o O ( 384000km up )
22:19:32 <boily> I'll put 7.3 × 10²² kg.
22:21:55 <int-e> And always in a hurry.
22:22:23 <boily> maybe it was a hurrying screeeee?
22:26:33 <^v> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O1UvD2hNHs
22:26:37 <^v> terrible editing
22:26:40 <^v> terrible voice
22:26:44 <^v> terrible presentation quality
22:26:51 <^v> hope u enjoy :v
22:26:59 <^v> also i pronounced eso wrong
22:27:22 <ais523> I pronounce it with a long e
22:29:43 <boily> is that your ^voice?
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23:20:56 <HackEgo> grammar//Grammar is just the evil subset of syntax.
23:21:04 <HackEgo> Syntax is just a subset of grammar.
23:21:19 <HackEgo> Just is just a just adverb.
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23:38:12 <myname> so syntax equals grammar?
23:39:46 <boily> I'm sure you could exploit some set theory shenanigan to affirm that syntax and grammar are different...
23:40:48 <moony> esolang concept: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uUJvkuB5j6Km6CoxprBmzGzYg0Kp7h-Z13eWx5GJOwE/edit?usp=sharing
23:40:59 <boily> I don't know, just pragmatic paranoia to the direction of mathematicians.
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23:50:53 <lambdabot> boily said 13h 9m 1s ago: no, you would rather lye to me, and then I would smell something fishy going on.
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23:54:28 * oerjan uses host -mx instead of host -t mx . it is super verbose.
23:56:40 <boily> what's a host -mx?
23:58:37 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 41m 34s ago: hppavellon[1]. you still haven't called me.
23:59:59 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn ü/ü is the second derivative of the letter 'u' with respect to time.