00:00:15 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Tanebirthday.
00:01:08 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going through a comment I'm composing and putting ZWSPs between all the ligaturable characters (e.g. fi) >:)
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00:03:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
00:04:10 <shachaf> there's an article about Taneb?
00:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, is it Tanebirthday's- wait, nickchange. So probably
00:04:31 <ais523> shachaf: well he's invented so many important things, why wouldn't there be?
00:04:59 <shachaf> What important things did Taneb invent?
00:05:36 <Tanebirthday> hppavilion[1], third of November Greenwich Mean Time, every year since 1994
00:05:40 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:05:47 <ais523> the universe is fairly important
00:06:24 <oerjan> Tanebirthday: ooh happy birthday
00:06:48 <oerjan> shachaf: no, about complex planes, which should contain a definition of Argand diagram hth
00:07:34 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: The universe is indiscreet, too.
00:07:52 <shachaf> citation: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.434.9777
00:07:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it was probably added after he invented it by some sneaky marketing department
00:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but sex makes up less than 12 ppb, so it's within acceptable bounds
00:08:22 <ais523> now I'm wondering why you'd want to market the universe and what the marketing slogan would be
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00:08:45 <Phantom_Hoover> if god did not exist it would become necessary for taneb to invent him
00:08:47 <oerjan> The Universe: More of Everything!
00:09:12 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: You need a lot of boilerplate to be able to say "let there be light" from the get-go, rather than having to define what light is, then what a photon is, then what a particle is, then trying to explain "stuff"
00:09:29 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, the long line, locales, and histograms.
00:09:33 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: So the universe comes with a lot of features pre-assembled
00:09:35 <ais523> oerjan: I like that :-)
00:09:35 <Tanebirthday> hppavilion[1], light is in the standard library
00:10:02 <Tanebirthday> Phantom_Hoover, I'm in favour of "maths" but have never edited that wisdom entry as far as I recall
00:10:29 <HackEgo> 8511:2016-06-17 <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/tanebvention{,s}": math" \ 8544:2016-06-20 <shachäf> slwd tanebventions: math//s#the reals#Klein bottles, the reals# \ 8819:2016-07-15 <shachäf> slwd tanebventions: math//s/ p/the Hodge star operator, p/ \ 8820:2016-07-15 <shachäf> slwd tanebventions: math//s/,t/, t/ \ 8966:2016-08-22 <shachäf> slwd ta
00:10:42 <Phantom_Hoover> `` mv "wisdom/tanebventions: math" "tanebventions: maths"
00:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> `` mv "wisdom/tanebventions: math" "wisdom/tanebventions: maths"
00:11:10 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:11:16 <HackEgo> 8510:2016-06-17 <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/tanebvention{"s (math)",": math"} \ 8511:2016-06-17 <oerjän> ` mv wisdom/tanebvention{,s}": math"
00:11:20 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: It used to be "Tanebventions (maths)", but it was renamed to "Tanebvention: math" so it would work both ways.
00:11:37 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> Do british people ever say "math"? What does the singular of "maths" mean?
00:12:09 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention \ wisdom/tanebventions: math \ wisdom/tanebventory
00:12:17 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: This is the right name for the file.
00:12:26 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, the long line, locales, and histograms.
00:12:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Enoua5 * New user account
00:12:47 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: "maths" is a contraction of "math[ematic]s"; "math" would therefore be a contraction of "mathematic", which is not a real word
00:12:55 <ais523> we don't use "math" just like we don't use "mathematic"
00:12:57 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> should that not be 'maths' <-- this way you can look it up with both terms
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00:13:17 <Tanebirthday> hppavilion[1], I never say "math" except when I'm being silly and disparaging someone for specialising too much
00:13:29 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, right, searching for a thing with -s at the end also searches for one without
00:13:31 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:13:49 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s#math#maths#
00:13:51 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:14:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Um, if that were actually mathsy, you would now have "See also tanebventions: mathssssssssss..."
00:14:48 <shachaf> ais523: In my usage, e.g. algebra is a math, and topology is a math. If you're studying maths, you're probably studying more than one math.
00:15:06 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, could Taneb have invented the f-word? On one hand, it often means sex, but on the other, it also means other stuff a LOT of the time, and it's a very versatile word
00:15:11 <ais523> now I'm wondering what the lowest number of substitutions is necessary for Thue to be Turing-complete / curly-L-complete
00:15:32 <ais523> shachaf: so "mathematic" = "field of mathematics"?
00:15:42 <ais523> that isn't entirely illogical, although it also doesn't fit with UK usage
00:16:09 <Tanebirthday> Then again, I pronounce "finite" such that it rhymes with "infinite" and "definite"
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00:17:03 <shachaf> ais523: I guess smaller mathematical things could be maths as well.
00:17:29 <hppavilion[1]> It can be a noun, a verb, an adjective, an adverb, an exclamation (of course). It can probably also be a pronoun, and I'dn't be surprised if it was a perfectly valid preposition, conjunction, article, determiner, and numeral as well.
00:17:37 <Tanebirthday> shachaf, is non-commutative topology, for example
00:18:56 <shachaf> Or is each D-module a math, so D-modules are maths?
00:19:25 <hppavilion[1]> (And proverb and proadjective (projective?) and prodeterminer and postposition (and adposition if adposition \ (preposition U postpostion) != {}) and proprepo...)
00:19:38 <shachaf> The main goal of my usage is to be incompatible with both US and UK usage, and therefore be neutral.
00:20:07 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Sorry, that was more hostile than it needed to be.
00:20:51 <shachaf> I was in the middle of writing out an explanation for the way it was, which you didn't know. But it made it frustrating that you were making changes while I was doing it.
00:21:14 <hppavilion[1]> I just learned yon and yonder were like "this" and "that". I am now sad.
00:21:34 <shachaf> But I don't know why people say say "math" is an abbreviation for "mathematic".
00:21:40 <shachaf> "mathematic" isn't a word as far as I know.
00:21:51 <hppavilion[1]> Though "yon/yonder" was probably historically "þon/þonder", modernly "thon/thonder"
00:21:54 <shachaf> In US usage it's an abbreviation for "mathematics", which is not plural, by the way.
00:22:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: In US (aka "real") english, mathematics is dual. hth.
00:23:31 <hppavilion[1]> (Its members are (1) taxes and (2) that stuff weirdos do)
00:25:33 <ais523> do we have a word definition/properties thing in HackEgo somewhere?
00:25:46 <ais523> I vaguely remember seeing a dictionary in this channel but it might have been fizzie
00:26:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50072&oldid=50070 * Enoua5 * (+174) /* Introductions */
00:26:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50073 * Enoua5 * (+78) Created page with "Hello, my beautiful world! I am a programmer, song writer, and furry. KTHXBYE"
00:27:52 <shachaf> And some other dictionaries.
00:27:53 <lambdabot> dict provides: dict-help all-dicts bouvier cide devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon thesaurus vera wn world02
00:28:14 <lambdabot> *** "potable" devil "The Devil's Dictionary (1881-1906)"
00:28:14 <lambdabot> POTABLE, n. Suitable for drinking. Water is said to be potable;
00:28:14 <lambdabot> indeed, some declare it our natural beverage, although even they find
00:28:14 <lambdabot> it palatable only when suffering from the recurrent disorder known as
00:28:14 <lambdabot> thirst, for which it is a medicine. Upon nothing has so great and
00:28:45 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Though "yon/yonder" was probably historically "þon/þonder", modernly "thon/thonder" <-- nope, cognate to german "jener" and norwegian "hin" hth
00:29:23 <oerjan> (also apparently to latin "idem")
00:29:25 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ...Yermans historically pronounced "j" as "th" hth. Also, male seahorses have the baby.
00:29:36 <hppavilion[1]> This is all true stuff that I didn't make up to not look bad.
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00:30:37 <FireFly> german historically pronouncing j as þ would be super weird
00:32:00 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] for etymofraud -----###
00:32:36 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: I think you have "þ" and "f" confused hth
00:33:07 <Tanebirthday> And I know people who genuinely cannot pronounce them differently
00:33:18 <hppavilion[1]> Tanebirthday: Yes it is. Unless it's a thoke about how Thermans can't make a 'th' sound...
00:33:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50074 * Enoua5 * (+52) Creation; will move documentation here
00:33:47 <oerjan> Tanebirthday: on the plus side no:matematikk and de:Mathematik and neither even has a plural hth
00:36:14 <shachaf> Tanebirthday: my guess for who's slightly older today is: oerjan
00:36:39 <FireFly> Tanebirthday: wait, f and þ, or f and j?
00:36:47 <FireFly> because in the latter case I'd be a bit concerned
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00:37:04 <Tanebirthday> FireFly, I was making a joke about hppavilion[1]'s f and j statement
00:37:25 <shachaf> Tanebirthday: whoa whoa whoa, no one said anything about birthdays
00:37:34 <shachaf> and i guess a few other people in here
00:37:51 <ais523> aren't /all/ of us slightly older than we were yesterday?
00:38:02 <ais523> (possibly some of us are also slightly wiser, although that's much less certain)
00:38:43 <shachaf> Though I guess Taneb never said "than yesterday".
00:38:53 <shachaf> Maybe Taneb is slightly older than he will be tomorrow?
00:38:55 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: No, bodily aging is all stored up and released in a single burst once every 365 days (except every 4th cycle when it's 366, except on the 100ths, except on the 400ths.)
00:43:36 <Tanebirthday> Today I am slightly older than I was yesterday and also than I will be tomorrow
00:44:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: how does that work for people born on February 29 twh
00:45:32 <oerjan> Tanebirthday: local maximum eh?
00:45:37 -!- moony has joined.
00:45:52 <shachaf> oerjan: a paradox / a paradox / a most ingenious paradox
00:45:55 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: current_year is only incremented on leap years; they grow a year older every 4 leap years, except every 100th, ...
00:46:19 <hppavilion[1]> (But they also tend to have lifespans about a fifth the length of a normal person)
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00:47:09 <shachaf> oerjan: yes, it's because they drink so much hth
00:47:10 <oerjan> this sounds unfair. only one in four birthdays _and_ live shorter overall
00:47:38 <oerjan> well, life isn't fair has been well established.
00:49:54 <oerjan> http://nethack4.org/media/alex/ayacc/ayacc.pl <-- dammit only now i realize the pun...
00:50:33 <oerjan> shachaf: alex/ayacc hth
00:51:23 <shachaf> this isn't related to the haskell alex
00:52:47 <oerjan> doubtful. although i don't remember if ais523 made an alex program too...
00:53:14 <ais523> oerjan: I didn't, although I was planning to
00:54:05 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
00:54:38 <shachaf> We haven't seen scarf or callforjudgement in quite a while.
00:54:48 <oerjan> i've seen callforjudgement
00:55:01 <oerjan> although briefly, due to a mistyping
00:55:25 <oerjan> or mistouchpadding iirc
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00:59:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50075&oldid=50074 * Enoua5 * (+7995) add documentation
01:01:08 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: this is one no one uses `learn hth <-- seriously, that's like one of the oldest `learn features hth
01:01:35 <HackEgo> 4033:2013-11-20 <boil̈y> learn MIPS Is Popular In Schools. \ 4034:2013-11-20 <oerjän> learn MIPS Is Popular in Schools.
01:01:42 <shachaf> oerjan: how come it didn't happen there tdnh
01:02:00 <oerjan> well it hasn't _always_ been there.
01:02:12 <oerjan> but i think it's definitely older than the article removal.
01:02:15 <shachaf> the point is that `learn is unpredictable
01:02:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50076&oldid=50075 * Enoua5 * (+81)
01:03:56 <oerjan> i think that does the right thing more often than not, although of course there would be misfires either way.
01:03:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50077&oldid=50073 * Enoua5 * (+37)
01:04:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50078&oldid=50077 * Enoua5 * (-9)
01:04:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50079&oldid=50076 * Enoua5 * (+31)
01:04:38 <oerjan> erm. helps more often than it hurts.
01:05:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50080&oldid=50079 * Enoua5 * (-19)
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01:06:32 * oerjan reads at least two furry comics, although one is strongly implied to have been accidental.
01:07:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Enoua5]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50081 * Hppavilion1 * (+340) Heeeelp... meeeee...
01:07:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50082&oldid=50004 * Enoua5 * (+14) Added Factory
01:07:54 <oerjan> accidental that it's now _only_ furries. it gradually became that way because the author couldn't draw humans.
01:08:33 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( If Enoua5 joins, I'm going to pretend to be a bot )
01:09:08 <oerjan> . o O ( then i can pretend to kick hppavilion[1] for botspam )
01:09:32 -!- enoua5 has joined.
01:09:53 <enoua5> Hello, not automated message!
01:10:25 <hppavilion[1]> I was planning on pretending to be a bot when you joined, then you joined just as I sent an obviously not-botty message
01:11:14 <enoua5> even though i gotta go. like now ._. .. gubye!
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01:13:02 <oerjan> the other comic is of course Freefall, which really has only one furry (ok maybe two now), but seems to be more connected to the actual furry community if the links on the page are any guidance.
01:14:02 <oerjan> hm does Girl Genius count, with the jägers and Krosp
01:14:22 <FireFly> I don't think that counts as "furry"
01:14:34 <FireFly> more than "humanoid but non-human characters"
01:14:54 * oerjan isn't sure of the difference
01:15:23 <oerjan> they're canonically modified humans btw
01:16:24 <hppavilion[1]> You know what'd be fun? Alien furries. Not, like, furries that look like (or officially are) aliens. Aliens who are furries regarding whatever other creatures live on their planet.
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01:19:22 <oerjan> hm i guess YAFGC also have some furry characters. and lots of humanoid non-humans.
01:23:21 <fizzie> Today, someone thought my Befunge shirt was Perl. Can you imagine?
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01:23:50 <fizzie> Not that a Befunge/Perl polyglot would probably be particularly difficult to do.
01:23:55 <oerjan> how dare they imply befunge is unreadable
01:24:18 <fizzie> Yes, it's clearly a slight towards at least one of the languages.
01:24:20 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that's a trivial combination
01:24:53 <fizzie> An INTERCAL fan was also present.
01:24:58 <ais523> a fun question is to consider what the first non-whitespace character would be in a maximum-number-of-languages polyglot
01:25:01 <ais523> I'm guessing # but not sure
01:25:10 <fizzie> (I don't know if they've done anything notable with it, but they mentioned it as their favourite esolang.)
01:25:38 <oerjan> hm increased polyglot challenge: make a polyglot where no character ignored in one language is used in the other
01:27:40 <ais523> what's the definition of "ignored" here?
01:27:49 <ais523> polyglots often place the code for one language inside a string literal in the other
01:27:55 <oerjan> that's the hard part i guess
01:27:58 <ais523> and then don't do anything very interesting with the string
01:28:11 <ais523> but you could, say, write a loop that checksums it or the like, if you want the content to matter
01:28:14 <shachaf> you need a linear type system for each language hth
01:29:17 <ais523> or are you banning copying data too?
01:29:21 -!- enoua5 has joined.
01:29:49 <oerjan> this gets really tricky to define then.
01:31:15 <ais523> oerjan: based on my thoughts about videogame polyglots, I think it'd be most interesing if the two programs did the same thing using the same algorithm
01:31:28 <ais523> and the same parts of the algorithm were implemented by the same part of the code
01:31:34 <HackEgo> enoua5: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:32:27 <enoua5> I just uploaded an esolang I created, if anyone wants to look at that!
01:32:50 <ais523> I was looking at it already
01:33:00 <ais523> my first thought was "oh wow, this might actually be interesting"
01:33:11 <ais523> (a lot of new users just do trivial/pointless brainfuck derivatives)
01:35:30 <ais523> actually if you start with a couple of zero bits in storage (I think you need at least two), it's TC with just production and storage, not needing the other rooms
01:35:54 <ais523> it's a computational power class, it basically expresses how good the language is at emulating other languages
01:36:11 <ais523> languages in the same class can emulate each other, and languages can also emulate langauges in lower classes
01:36:30 <shachaf> I think a lot of people know what Turing completeness is who might not know the abbreviation "TC".
01:36:48 <ais523> I just got a little carried away and decided to define Turing completeness anyway
01:37:13 <enoua5> so, what do you mean by having the couple in storage?
01:37:29 <ais523> like, your storage spaces start empty, right?
01:37:45 <enoua5> how would this replace some rooms?
01:37:46 <ais523> if I start with a zero bit on one of them (actually one is enough because you can change what the production is producing)
01:38:00 <ais523> then that gives enough power just in production and storage to do any computation
01:38:29 <ais523> the idea is that you can use the storage space to implement a Minsky machine
01:38:56 <ais523> two storage spaces for the two counters you need (you put a 0 at the bottom and 1s above it)
01:39:09 <ais523> and one as a bitbucket for storing unwanted bits
01:39:29 <enoua5> *looks that up* oh, wow! yeah, there a few things i added just to be a little nicer
01:39:31 <ais523> (you could also drop the unwanted bits into production, I guess, so long as you kept a known bit around to set it back to the value you wanted)
01:39:47 <ais523> your extra tools will make the language much more usable
01:39:54 <ais523> there's a tradeoff between being usable and having a minimum of commands
01:40:05 <ais523> btw, you might want to put your language in categories so that people will see it
01:40:10 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization
01:40:20 <ais523> and edit it onto the language list
01:40:34 <ais523> if a language is on an unlinked page like that, it has a tendency to get lost and forgotten about
01:41:03 <enoua5> i put it onto the list already, i'll go look at catagories
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01:46:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50083&oldid=50080 * Enoua5 * (+119)
01:47:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50084&oldid=50083 * Enoua5 * (-2) /* Categories */
01:49:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50085&oldid=50084 * Ais523 * (-21) /* Categories */ make this into actual category inclusions, rather than category mentions, by unescaping it
01:49:58 <shachaf> What's a category inclusion? A faithful functor?
01:50:32 <ais523> in MediaWiki, it's rather less interesting than that :-P
01:50:46 -!- enoua5 has joined.
01:50:53 <enoua5> Alright, it's catagorized!
01:52:07 <enoua5> It seems i did it wrong and someone fixed it. thanks to whoever that person was!
01:53:06 <enoua5> *looks at the history* thanks, Ais523!
01:53:28 <ais523> : is an escape character in MediaWiki
01:53:45 <ais523> so [[Category:Languages]] uses the Languages category, whereas [[:Category:Languages]] merely mentions it (in this case, a link)
01:53:58 <ais523> we don't want Esolang:Categorization to be in the categories itself, so we escape
01:54:10 <ais523> but on language pages we do want them to be in the category normally
01:54:54 <enoua5> Ah, ok, i see. that makes sense.
01:55:29 <enoua5> Thanks for your help! I hope Factory will do good here.
01:55:52 <ais523> my guess is nothing much will happen in a while, then someone will use it on a "guess the language" puzzle on PPCG
01:56:47 <shachaf> I am the very model of a Turing halting oracle, / I've information esoteric-wiki categorical
01:58:16 <shachaf> If you have linear types, can you have a halting oracle that uses up its argument?
01:58:33 <shachaf> So you can either know whether something halts, or you can run it, but not both.
01:58:59 <shachaf> I mean, can you implement it.
01:59:28 <ais523> you mean can you implement a halting oracle for a linear language in itself, whilst keeping the language sub-Turing?
01:59:39 <ais523> (note that it clearly has to be /sub/-Turing to work)
01:59:49 <shachaf> The usual proof about the halting problem depends on being able to duplicate things.
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02:00:12 <shachaf> Maybe that's what I mean. Of course if you can implement it it's not really an oracle.
02:00:50 <ais523> well, you need restrctions on the language to make the problem interesting
02:00:56 <ais523> you can add a halting oracle for Deadfish in Deadfish
02:01:00 <ais523> without any real issues
02:01:31 <shachaf> Or maybe the language itself is Turing-complete, but the oracle is external to the language, but adding it doesn't make the language super-Turing.
02:01:42 <shachaf> Then again, I don't like Turing completeness, I'd rather avoid it if possible.
02:01:44 <ais523> because Deadfish programs always halt and the existence of a halting oracle won't help
02:02:01 <ais523> shachaf: well, being able to halting-oracle arbitrary TC programs would be kind-of revolutionary
02:02:20 <shachaf> Well, the "programs" would have to be something other than data.
02:02:28 <shachaf> Because data is freely duplicatable.
02:03:10 <pikhq> ais523: That's putting it likely.
02:03:36 <shachaf> ais523: It's not revolutionary, it's the point of an oracle.
02:03:45 <shachaf> Being able to implement it in the language would be revolutionary.
02:04:13 <ais523> so we're basically talking about a language which has access to an oracle for itself, but some restriction that prevents it using it to gain more computational power
02:04:32 <shachaf> Right, that's one of the options that might be interesting.
02:04:33 <ais523> that's fairly easy to do if, say, the language is defined to immediately go into an infinite loop if the oracle says "doesn't halt"
02:04:44 <ais523> (you can actually implement this without an oracle, too :-P)
02:05:02 <ais523> I'm reminded of http://esolangs.org/wiki/WUUI although it isn't exactly what you're looking for
02:06:33 <ais523> come to think of it, a naive impl of that language may have a slower computational complexity than any other language on Esolang
02:06:43 <ais523> possibly including the ones that require brute-forcing hashes
02:06:54 <ais523> (arguably those are O(1), for sufficiently large values of 1)
02:07:11 <shachaf> What if the hash length is a function of the program length?
02:07:59 <ais523> I don't think we have any of those yet
02:08:14 <oerjan> . o O ( does oracle really rhyme with categorical )
02:08:34 <shachaf> oerjan: i looked it up in a rhyming dictionary hth
02:09:06 <ais523> oerjan: it does if you interpret the last two vowels as ə
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02:09:26 <ais523> I don't, but it's close enough that you could pronounce it that way and people would understand the words
02:12:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50086&oldid=50078 * Enoua5 * (+108)
02:12:11 <shachaf> i am the very model of a modern rhyming nitpicker / i've information more pedantic, more arcane, and crypticer
02:13:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50087&oldid=50086 * Enoua5 * (+42)
02:13:50 <enoua5> I should probably use the preview button more often
02:14:42 <shachaf> oerjan: some people might object to rhyming "mineral" and "general" hth
02:15:11 <oerjan> shachaf: only a whiner-all hth
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02:16:06 <shachaf> oerjan: aren't you going to nitpick that rhyme twh
02:16:06 <ais523> shachaf: I actually learned the rules of poetry from a book
02:16:20 <oerjan> enoua5: now, now, let's not joke about their drinking problems
02:16:30 <ais523> "mineral" and "general" would need to match everything from the first vowel onwards to rhyme, and they don't
02:16:36 <ais523> and I can't remember, it was ages ago
02:16:41 <shachaf> Because the stress is on that syllable?
02:16:56 <shachaf> I figured out that rule but it took me a while.
02:17:08 <shachaf> Fortunately I'm capable of rhyming even without knowing the rules.
02:17:51 <oerjan> `learn_append shachaf He is capable of rhyming even without knowing the rules.
02:18:33 <ais523> shachaf: specifically, you take the last syllable that has a reasonable amount of stress
02:18:38 <ais523> and have to rhyme from its vowel onwards
02:18:46 <shachaf> I remember the first time I saw a poem in a book -- or maybe it was a song, they're the same word in Hebrew -- and I asked the person who was reading the book to me (or was I reading it and they were helping me?) how they knew it was a poem (or song).
02:18:52 <shachaf> And they said it was because it had short lines.
02:19:19 <ais523> well, "plainverse" is a poetry genre defined pretty much entirely by random linebreaks and no other restrictions
02:19:24 <shachaf> This book was probably _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_.
02:19:35 <ais523> but I'm not sure it really counts as poetry at that point
02:19:43 <ais523> because that was his name."
02:19:45 <shachaf> ais523: Well, they didn't say it was a necessary condition.
02:19:55 * oerjan wonders if he mentioned that the russian word for "sings" is "поёт"
02:20:19 <oerjan> it does _not_, however, apply to poetry afaiu
02:21:26 <oerjan> (although russians rarely write the ¨)
02:21:40 <ais523> technically it should be "poëtry" under English spelling rules
02:21:41 <shachaf> ё is pronounced "yo" if I remember correctly.
02:21:58 <ais523> we don't pronounce it "poh-tree"
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02:22:26 <ais523> but accents in English have pretty much died out, except sometimes in #esoteric as a joke (and in #esoteric they often aren't used correctly)
02:22:28 <enoua5> English has no spelling rules though
02:22:36 <ais523> they're more like guidelines
02:22:40 <shachaf> ais523: Also in the New Yorker.
02:23:11 <oerjan> shachaf: yep. [pɐˈjɵt]
02:23:13 <shachaf> I used to write "coördination" and so on but it's uncommon enough that I think it looks pretentious.
02:23:15 <ais523> English is the perfect natural language for this channel, really
02:23:28 <ais523> it's about the closest you can get to an esoteric natural langauge
02:23:50 <ais523> shachaf: sometimes I write "noone" in protest
02:23:58 <alercah> and we dabble in Japanese occasionally, another excellent choice
02:24:00 <enoua5> Our little Frankenstein's monster of a lanuage
02:24:08 <ais523> (what is the correct spelling of that word, anyway?)
02:24:10 <shachaf> ais523: Depends on the class of esoteric language.
02:24:24 <ais523> maybe it's actually two words which is why I can't figure out how to spell it as one
02:24:54 <ais523> btw, what's the current status of "alright", is it a word yet?
02:24:56 <shachaf> For example English isn't like languages that try to be as simple as possible.
02:25:12 <ais523> a dictionary I owned when growing up specifically listed it as not a word
02:25:16 <shachaf> I don't like "alright". But maybe it's unavoidable.
02:25:16 <ais523> like, most nonwords aren't even in the dictionary
02:25:27 <shachaf> Have you finished growing up?
02:25:34 <ais523> that one, the dictionary felt compelled to add a specific note at its position in alphabetical order
02:25:38 <ais523> saying it wasn't a word
02:25:41 <ais523> shachaf: height-wise, yes
02:25:46 <ais523> in terms of maturity, who knows
02:28:12 <oerjan> thou shouldst always gette up before noone
02:29:03 <shachaf> What is the simplest human language?
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02:30:23 <ais523> baby language, I guess
02:30:30 <ais523> although that isn't normally very expressive
02:30:50 <ais523> many babies only use one word for everything, and just repeat it until an adult figures out what they mean by trial and error
02:31:06 <ais523> actually that sounds like an esolang
02:31:15 <ais523> it ignores the input program given, and does something random
02:31:19 <ais523> you run the program repeatedly until it does what you want
02:32:17 <oerjan> "American users (COCA) prefer the spelling no one to either noone or no-one by more than 500 to 1. UK users (BNC) prefer no-one to noone 50 to 1 and no one to noone 12 to 1."
02:32:28 <ais523> I'll create an article for it, it won't take long
02:32:32 <ais523> I guess it counts as a joke language
02:32:59 <shachaf> I think most babies are more expressive than that.
02:33:19 <shachaf> Even when they're born? I guess I haven't been around many fresh babies.
02:33:26 <shachaf> Newborn babies. That's the word.
02:33:56 <enoua5> fresh babies! name the language that!
02:34:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50088&oldid=49640 * Ais523 * (+94) /* General languages */ +[[Baby Language]]
02:34:06 <oerjan> babies don't stay fresh long, i hear
02:34:18 <oerjan> they start smelling fast
02:35:29 <shachaf> ais523: Did you know the word "exoteric", meaning the opposite of esoteric?
02:35:33 <lambdabot> *** "exoteric" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
02:35:33 <lambdabot> adj 1: suitable for the general public; "writings of an exoteric
02:35:49 <ais523> shachaf: yes, but I didn't realise we hadn't invented it ourself
02:36:25 <shachaf> Apparently the wiki uses the word "mainstream".
02:36:39 <shachaf> Well, I guess it doesn't use it to mean exactly that.
02:37:37 <shachaf> "Best Treatment of a Mainstream Programming Language as an Esoteric Programming Language"
02:38:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Baby Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50089 * Ais523 * (+689) it's a simple enough idea, and I don't think we've done it yet… (anyone care to implement this? anyone brave enough to run it?)
02:39:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Baby Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50090&oldid=50089 * Ais523 * (+11) I accidentally two words
02:40:14 <enoua5> so. is it required to create something that won't crash?
02:40:21 * oerjan is disappointed that there doesn't seem to be a whole class of -teric adjectives
02:40:56 <shachaf> esoteric, exoteric, hysteric
02:41:39 <enoua5> Now I'm wondering how hard it would be to make a random valid exe generator
02:42:08 <oerjan> but "hysteric" isn't formed in a similar way
02:42:11 <ais523> it might be easier to generate random programs in a language where all programs are valid
02:42:38 <ais523> that would seem to fit the naming scheme, a pity it isn't actually a real word
02:42:46 <shachaf> Are there languages where all programs are valid, and there's also some notion of "continuity"?
02:43:00 <shachaf> So making a small change in the syntax makes a small change in the program.
02:43:06 <shachaf> I'm not sure what that would mean exactly.
02:43:47 <ais523> shachaf: well, the last time I tried to write a language where the programs were continuous functions with real-numbered inputs and outputs and so was memory
02:43:48 <ais523> I ended up getting sidetracked and inventing Three Star Programmer instead
02:44:02 <ais523> which reminds me, I need to get round to writing a compiler targeting 3SP some time
02:44:12 <ais523> I mostly gave up on the langauge after realising it was too easy
02:44:32 <ais523> and yet complex enough to make it bad as a tarpit
02:45:08 <ais523> I'd worked out a way to implement cyclic tag in it I think
02:45:13 <ais523> not sure if I ever wrote it down
02:46:13 <ais523> oh right, just looking at the code to my impl
02:46:20 <ais523> and it uses a custom allocator because of course it does
02:46:49 <enoua5> Something a friend and I were wanting to do is make either make a language using mostly snowman or entirely characters from Unicode's Miscellaneous Symbols
02:47:18 <ais523> please don't fall into the trap of trying to assign a meaningful command to every codepoint in Unicode :-P
02:47:37 <ais523> and if you do, /definitely/ don't make a list of every character in your documentation, showing it as currently undefined/undecided
02:47:49 <ais523> and if you have to do even that, /very definitely/ don't post it to the wiki
02:47:59 <ais523> (this has, sadly, happened before)
02:48:26 <pikhq> You could possibly come up with interesting semantics using Miscellaneous Symbols for kinda-mnemonic effect, at least.
02:48:32 <shachaf> Does the wiki have bad support for big pages?
02:49:23 <enoua5> Well, It's pointless to have all that meaningless information
02:49:51 <ais523> shachaf: the person in question was creating a huge numbre of pages
02:50:01 <ais523> MediaWiki doesn't like very very large pages
02:50:04 <ais523> also it rather bloats the database dumps
02:50:05 <shachaf> pikhq: What's a good build system?
02:50:11 <ais523> which reminds me, I haven't done a wiki backup in a while
02:50:12 <shachaf> Do you think bazel is good?
02:51:17 <ais523> fizzie: wiki backup dump appears to be broken
02:52:37 <enoua5> u+26a2 to u+26a9 would be.. Interesting
02:53:46 <ais523> here: http://sprunge.us/OALJ
02:53:57 <pikhq> shachaf: Good... build system...
02:54:05 <ais523> I appear to have some documentation on an algorithm for compiling cyclic tag into 3SP
02:54:10 <ais523> in POD format for some reason
02:54:31 <pikhq> Dunno that such a thing exists.
02:54:40 <ais523> I guess I was planning to write a compiler but got stuck
02:54:57 <ais523> pikhq: there's aimake, which also isn't good but which I think shows promise, mostly because I wrote it
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02:59:06 <shachaf> There are many things I like about bazel.
03:02:09 <enoua5> With Factory. I'm debating between two things: porting it to a console language, or creating a visual interpreter. Any opionions?
03:02:52 <ais523> a visual interpreter will be more fun but fairly slow
03:02:56 <ais523> err, fairly hard to writ
03:03:12 <ais523> I have this problem lately when I say something that's only tangentially connected to what I actually mean
03:03:22 <ais523> then often notice after I've said it and have to correct it
03:03:55 <enoua5> Yeah, I was originally thinking of the visual interpreter as a sort of debug mode
03:05:01 <enoua5> but, yes. it would be both hard and slow
03:08:22 <enoua5> And I don't know how easily I could get it into a console language. It's in JS right now, and I took advantage of some of JS's flexability
03:09:07 <shachaf> What's a console language?
03:10:38 <enoua5> all text based. prints to console (as in command line)
03:11:06 <shachaf> Oh. Doesn't JavaScript qualify?
03:11:20 <shachaf> Or: What's the advantage of a console language?
03:12:02 <shachaf> Not if you get a non-browser version.
03:12:25 <enoua5> If I did it console based I could have the user be able to see older inputs and outputs without having to do all sorts of crazy
03:15:13 <enoua5> I decided that I didn't want to use a JS's console because I wanted someone to be able to publish a program they make, and the average person doesn't know about js console
03:17:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50091&oldid=50087 * Enoua5 * (+91) /* Languages created */
03:18:42 <enoua5> I may put this in Factory's discussion, but I've got to go
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05:07:24 <izalove> "Describe how you could use a single array to implement three stacks."
05:07:39 <izalove> is the answer to store them like this? abcabcabcabc ?
05:10:30 <ais523> that's one method that works; it's time-efficient but can be memory-inefficient if they have unbalanced sizes
05:12:02 <izalove> the memory efficient way involves moving stacks b and c when inserting a new element in a?
05:36:01 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: What's the memory- and time-inefficient way?
05:36:25 <hppavilion[1]> (Are there any rigorous measures of complexity other than time- and space-complexity?)
05:36:49 <ais523> you could use your array as a memory space, create a custom allocator that allocates from it
05:36:51 <ais523> then implement the stacks as linked lists
05:36:55 <ais523> that's pretty inefficient
05:37:02 <ais523> (although it's O(n) for both memory and time)
05:37:12 <ais523> err, O(n) for memory, O(1) for time
05:38:45 <hppavilion[1]> New false pedantery game: Insist that big "O" notation isn't correct, and that it's more correct to say big Ø notation
05:39:03 <ais523> New false pedantry game: misspell "pedantry"
05:39:30 <izalove> New false pedanry game: missspell "misspell"
05:39:46 <oerjan> izalove: that's not new i've mispled for years
05:40:13 * izalove just wanted to feel accepted
05:40:46 <shachaf> ais523: You might as well do the dynamic array thing at that point.
05:41:13 <ais523> shachaf: well, people rarely ask for intentionally inefficient algorithms
05:41:48 <ais523> shachaf: <hppavilion[1]> ais523: What's the memory- and time-inefficient way?
05:42:20 <izalove> i propose taht we as a society stop writing "?" messages on irc
05:42:53 <oerjan> izalove: how would that help
05:43:22 <izalove> ? is not enough as a question
05:43:43 <izalove> my psychiatrist suggested it
05:43:52 <HackEgo> izabera is a bradyherpetologist. She is probably implemented in bash.
05:44:04 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Writing ? conveys the concept "I am confused as to what you just said, please explain" in 1 byte (minus the bytes every message mandatorily includes)
05:44:32 <izalove> "what didn't you undersrtand? what part do i have to explain?"
05:44:40 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: I would say that "?" alone is bad, but "%: ?" % nickname is sufficient
05:44:46 <izalove> at some point i'll just start answering ? with !
05:45:34 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: How about instead of just ?, we do ¿?... wait, how do I end this statement as a question? Oh, there we go.
05:46:15 <izalove> i shouldn't underestimate people with unicode
05:46:30 <oerjan> i realized spanish is not as simple to write as people claim.
05:46:50 <oerjan> you have to know before you start writing whether you're excited at the end or not
05:48:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Is this a joke or are we talking about sentences where the exclamationing starts in the miOH MY GOD WHAT THE HELL IS THAT‽
05:50:07 <ais523> wait, since when is there an upside-down interrobang?
05:50:11 <HackEgo> U+2E43 DASH WITH LEFT UPTURN \ UTF-8: e2 b9 83 UTF-16BE: 2e43 Decimal: ⹃ \ ⹃ \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
05:50:16 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: https://jonathanzong.github.io/proposed-punctuation/ hth
05:50:25 <ais523> I've heard that to interrobang in Spanish you start with ¿ and end with ! (or possibly upside-down vice versa)
05:51:04 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's the point d' amour in the link above, but I assumed it was private use, not overloading (which is stupid)
05:52:13 <hppavilion[1]> (Really, I think Unicode should have added Bazin's characters ages ago... They never gained usage in any languages I've seen, but people probably want to use them all the time)
06:02:35 <izalove> t1 is a tree with millions of nodes, t2 is a tree with hundreds of nodes
06:02:47 <izalove> determine if t2 is identical to a subtree of t1
06:04:03 <izalove> is there a smart way to do this? looks like substring matching but stuff like boyer moore seems harder to apply
06:20:09 <ais523> izalove: express the trees in polish or reverse-polish notation, then do a substring match
06:20:35 <ais523> (to avoid false positives you'll need to distinguish leaves from branches but that isn't hard)
06:21:42 <izalove> i should have thought about it
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06:37:33 <HackEgo> Necrosporus: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
06:38:08 <oerjan> hm halloween is presumably over everywhere.
06:38:48 -!- oerjan has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
06:39:11 <oerjan> Necrosporus: normally not considered so, but our wiki _does_ have a page for it.
06:41:28 <Necrosporus> Those languages even though widely available are quite similar to languages considered esotheric, aren't they?
06:43:03 <oerjan> yes they are. although normally we exclude languages that are made for "serious use".
06:43:26 <oerjan> but i know e.g. zzo38 (not here at the moment) has done some strange things with dc.
06:44:03 <oerjan> and we have ///, which you could say is _inspired_ by sed.
06:44:47 <oerjan> well he did make a Deadfish implementation in it.
06:45:26 <oerjan> i suppose that's not _that_ strange, but he had to use the alternative "xkcd" command set to make it work.
06:45:40 <oerjan> and i think he's done other things, which i don't quite remember.
06:45:58 <oerjan> (he's also done a lot in TeX. plain TeX, without LaTeX.)
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06:55:02 <hppavilion[1]> I just informed Google Translate that Freundschaftreich translates to "Brony Fandom". Now to wait for it to translate.
07:12:46 <myname> yeah, making a big translation site worse flr everybody is fun!
07:14:42 <oerjan> see, it's working, myname already misunderstands "fun"!
07:15:21 <izalove> it's a democratic system and you're attacking his right to vote
07:15:50 <myname> neither of this is true
07:16:30 <oerjan> i expect google has mechanisms to detect repeat nonsense-makers.
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07:17:45 <izalove> but language *is* a democracy. if enough people start using "literally" as "figuratively", it eventually becomes accepted
07:18:17 <myname> izalove: that's not the definition of democracy
07:18:26 <myname> also: do you like chom choms?
07:18:51 <oerjan> myname: now it is, she told it to google translate hth
07:19:07 <izalove> that's the people's right to vote to shape their language
07:19:27 <Hoolootwo> nobody actually votes though really
07:19:30 <oerjan> yes but democracy also has rules.
07:19:59 <izalove> imma cast mah vote right now
07:20:06 <myname> you don't have any way to vote in secret, too
07:20:21 <izalove> secret voting isn't required
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08:26:08 <Jafet> next: deliberately playing bad games on IGS to mess up alphago's training
08:37:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50092&oldid=49993 * Sesshomariu * (+161) /* External resources */
08:46:47 <Jafet> re subtree search: if tree branches are unordered, then converting to a string won't work
08:58:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50093&oldid=50092 * Ais523 * (-161) Undo revision 50092 by [[Special:Contributions/Sesshomariu|Sesshomariu]] ([[User talk:Sesshomariu|talk]]): added to the wrong list, I'll add it to the main one
08:59:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50094&oldid=49992 * Ais523 * (+144) /* Normal implementations */ add edit by Sesshomariu to the wrong page
09:00:40 <fizzie> ais523: Broken how, in particular?
09:00:59 <ais523> fizzie: I got an error about failure to decompress it
09:01:16 <ais523> leaving behind a .part file, and hopefully leaving the original unchanged
09:01:27 <ais523> I don't really want to investigate though because I'm on a metered connection
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09:04:55 <ais523> haha, I hadn't seen the note at the top of the brainfuck article before
09:05:43 <b_jonas> ais523: "New false pedantry game: misspell "pedantry"" => https://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=464
09:06:10 <fizzie> Hrm. The on-server esolangs.xml.gz file itself zcat's through with no warnings. I don't really know much about that whole zsync thing, though.
09:06:16 <fizzie> It's probably also possible you managed to download it as it was updated. The cron job just calls zsyncmake with the final path names (no fancy write-elsewhere-mv-atomically tricks), which might well mean it's broken for the moment it's updating, which happens daily at 6:09 in what's probably America/New_York time zone.
09:06:53 <fizzie> (And I think maintenance/dumpBackup.php takes a while to run.)
09:07:36 <ais523> I guess I'll try again next time I have a nonmetered connection, maybe from scratch
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09:54:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50095&oldid=49107 * Sesshomariu * (+178)
10:00:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Sesshomariu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50096 * Ais523 * (+544) reply
10:02:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50097&oldid=50095 * Ais523 * (+191) /* Removal of my compiler */ replied
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10:45:12 <HackEgo> ingesorgeco//Ingesorgeco is when a German is worrying that their money might get cut short.
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12:50:45 <moony> izalove: see yesterday
12:51:16 <izalove> you're overestimating my powers
12:53:45 <moony> izalove, http://tinyurl.com/h8uxhf4 ( http://preview.tinyurl.com/h8uxhf4 )
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12:56:39 <moony> izalove, tell me what you think ^_^
12:57:24 <izalove> but what doesn't, these days?
12:57:39 <moony> fun note: HBL may be higher or lower than turing complete, due to the paradoxical situations possible it is uncomputeable and undecidable
12:57:50 <moony> thus it is hard to know
12:57:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50098&oldid=50082 * Sesshomariu * (+13) /* P */
12:59:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PPAP++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50099 * Sesshomariu * (+216) Created page with "PPAP++ is an esoteric programming language by [[User:Sesshomariu]] based on [[brainfuck]] and referencing to the popular PPAP meme. The repository on GitHub can be found [http..."
12:59:54 <moony> it can be considered a subclass of a oracle machine i believe
13:01:14 <Tanebirthday> What's your favourite finite equivalence class
13:01:15 <moony> YABD (Yet Another Brainfuck Derivative)
13:01:35 <moony> Tanebirthday, you lost me on 'finite equivalence class'
13:02:02 <Tanebirthday> What's your favourite equivalence relation on a finite set
13:02:23 <moony> happy Tanebirthday!
13:02:45 <izalove> the opposite of a finite unset
13:02:51 <moony> yes, a matrix/list of finite size
13:04:05 <izalove> i have a 107% serious question
13:04:14 <izalove> did haskell start out as an esoteric lang?
13:05:00 <izalove> ok, when did it become one?
13:05:07 <Tanebirthday> It started out because people were frustrated because Miranda was trademarked
13:09:57 <HackEgo> Histograms are diagrams showing histamine levels. Taneb invented them.
13:13:21 <izalove> http://i.imgur.com/yj4LwRJ.png nice problem
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13:16:29 <Tanebirthday> The "Taneb consistency", defined to be the consistency that is weaker than all other consistencies
13:18:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50100&oldid=50091 * Enoua5 * (+623)
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13:28:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Enoua5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50101&oldid=50100 * Enoua5 * (+301) /* Furry */
13:33:31 <moony> `le/rn Taneb consistency/A consistency that is weaker than all other consistencies. Taneb invented it
13:33:34 <HackEgo> Learned 'taneb consistency': A consistency that is weaker than all other consistencies. Taneb invented it
13:34:11 <FreeFull> Also, do all the best projects start with someone being frustrated?
13:36:26 <izalove> do all the failed projects end with someone being frustrated?
13:39:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Factory]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50102 * Enoua5 * (+359) Created page with "Currently, I am thinking of how to bring Factory a step forward.<br/> Here are some of my ideas: <br/> 1) Porting Factory to a language that can create .exe's<br/> 2) Creating..."
13:41:02 <quintopia> but all the partially funded but failed projects end with frustration
13:41:29 <quintopia> (interestingly, lots of successful projects start with someone being bored)
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13:42:28 <moony> warning: do not preform the -flip command
13:43:18 <otherbot> Confirm by using as argument: 29513265525635400
14:11:42 <moony> messes with your otherbot permissions,iovoid added it for fun
14:29:58 <moony> wow the list of uncomputable languages is small, but they are all rather intresting
14:41:19 <moony> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Schrodilang << lol
14:41:36 <moony> oh nice joke Gregor :p
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15:31:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Memfractal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50103 * TuxCrafting * (+111) Created page with "Very clear 10/10 ~~~~"
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17:52:45 <hppavilion[1]> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouHaveToHaveJews was notably averted in Germany
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19:29:53 <moony> you just lost The Game
19:39:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50104&oldid=50085 * Enoua5 * (+25)
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19:57:05 <moony> hppavilion[1], you just lost The Game.
19:57:29 <hppavilion[1]> moony: Awww, but I was having so much fun plazing poker!
19:57:40 <hppavilion[1]> moony: Also, Iäm currentlz set to a german kezboard
19:58:16 * moony realises he actually is TIEing the game, due to his Roleplay character personallity sitting around in is head doesnt know about The Game
19:58:38 * moony realises he cant lose unless he tells his RP character about it
20:03:51 <hppavilion[1]> I can't believe that Unicode lacks the love symbol
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20:10:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50105&oldid=50104 * Enoua5 * (-3) /* Example two: I -> O program */
20:19:44 <HackEgo> [U+0055 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U] [U+002B PLUS SIGN] [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE] [U+0036 DIGIT SIX]
20:22:28 <HackEgo> [U+FE56 SMALL QUESTION MARK]
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20:38:52 <\oren\> wait, that char isn;t in my font
20:48:02 <\oren\> moony: I herd you liek mudkipz
20:48:42 <\oren\> seriusly dud that meme is so old it could vote for president
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21:01:11 <izalove> given two words of equal length that are in a dictionary, write a function to transform one word into another by changing only one letter at a time
21:01:11 <izalove> the new word you get in each step must be in the dictionary
21:01:11 <izalove> example: input: damp, like
21:01:11 <izalove> output: damp -> lamp -> limp -> lime -> like
21:01:29 <wob_jonas> izalove: wait wait I have a reference for that
21:03:06 <wob_jonas> oh damn... I only have a gmane web link, but that thread isn't accessible through the gmane web interface
21:03:46 <izalove> so far my plan is to get all the X letter words in the dictionary, remove the ones that can't be changed to at least two words
21:04:48 <wob_jonas> izalove: anyway, this was given as one of the tasks on the perl quiz of the week mailing list lots of years ago. that mailing list is no longer running, and I'm not sure of the
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21:05:49 <wob_jonas> email address or of the date, but the gmane link for the Word Ladder task evaluation (which has spoilers) was http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.perl.qotw.quiz-of-the-week/109 ,
21:05:51 <izalove> breath first search with dynamic programming
21:06:12 <izalove> wob_jonas: thanks for not spoiling it :D
21:06:31 <wob_jonas> and there's some info about the mailing list at http://perl.plover.com/qotw/ so you might be able to find a trace from either there, or from the gmane news interface.
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21:08:16 <wob_jonas> ah, here's a copy of the discussion email, which does have SPOILERS, so don't read it yet: http://perl.plover.com/qotw/e/solution/022
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21:27:41 <APic> Heya wanderman
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22:02:26 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Thu Nov 3 22:02:28
22:02:46 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm about to go to bed you see
22:03:01 <Taneb> And don't want to have a birthday-themed nick inaccurately
22:09:16 <shachaf> I guess false negatives don't hurt.
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22:14:21 <HackEgo> zzo38mtg.php//http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php
22:15:51 <HackEgo> off by two//An off by two error is what happens when you expect an off by one error but compensate in the wrong direction.
22:15:57 <HackEgo> cdop//CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order.
22:16:52 <HackEgo> butterfly//While some might think butterflies are descended from flies, that is a false entomology.
22:16:55 <HackEgo> metasepia//metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
22:17:15 <boily> c'est des oublis particuliers?
22:17:45 <shachaf> google says: "it's special forgetfulness"
22:18:03 <shachaf> boily is quite the forgetful functor
22:18:45 <shachaf> the oceans are quite boily today
22:21:14 <boily> more like "those are particular omissions" hth
22:21:26 <boily> what's a forgetful functor?
22:21:47 <boily> I swim in oceans about 15 minutes per year.
22:22:38 <lambdabot> CYYZ 032200Z 35011KT 15SM FEW025 FEW050 SCT080 BKN140 BKN210 11/07 A3008 RMK CU1SC2AC2AC3CI1 CU TR CI TR SLP189
22:23:16 <shachaf> I think "forgetful functor" means "functor".
22:24:13 <boily> he\\oren\. are you rained?
22:25:10 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
22:25:15 <lambdabot> CYUL 032200Z 02005KT 15SM -RA FEW008 SCT020 OVC045 09/07 A2996 RMK SF1SC2SC5 SLP147 \ ENVA 032150Z 09005KT 9999 -SN BKN033 00/M03 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 10009KT \ ESSB 032220Z AUTO 29003KT 9999
22:25:15 <lambdabot> BKN040/// M01/M02 Q1015 \ KOAK 032153Z 28007KT 10SM FEW180 FEW250 21/12 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP195 T02110117 PNO \ PAMR 032153Z 19004KT 10SM CLR 02/M02 A2915 RMK AO2 SLP872 T00221017
22:26:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Baby Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50106 * Enoua5 * (+182) Created page with "A random BF generator and interpreter could work for this. I just barely created a BF generator in JS. ~~~~"
22:26:36 <boily> PAMR? that sounds hppavilionny[1].
22:26:39 <lambdabot> ?? ?@ ?run var$intercalate " \\ " . map (\x -> "(@metar "++x++")") . words $ ?show
22:29:01 <FireFly> By which I mean somewhat terrifying
22:29:34 <shachaf> It's more terrifying when you try to process the metar output.
22:29:48 <lambdabot> ?? ?@ ?run var$intercalate " \\ " . map (\x -> "(@metar "++x++")") . words $ ?show
22:29:55 <shachaf> In fact I don't think I managed to do it, because it ran into some length limit or something.
22:30:09 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Don't wrap your head around haskell. Immerse! Wrap haskell around your head.
22:31:09 <shachaf> `airport Norman Y. Mineta San José International Airport
22:31:19 <HackEgo> San Jose (?, MGSJ) \ San Jose (?, RPUH) \ Norman Y Mineta San Jose Intl (SJC, KSJC) \ Isla San Jose (?, ?)
22:31:21 <HackEgo> 165) <Phantom_Hoover> For instance, Jesus' Y chromosome was clearly GOD'S. \ 166) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, let's reduce the human genome to 4 chromosomes, in 2 homologous pairs.
22:31:29 <lambdabot> KLAX 032153Z 26010KT 10SM CLR 26/06 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP155 T02560061
22:31:31 <shachaf> `airport Norman Y. Mineta San Jose International
22:31:37 <shachaf> `airport Norman Y Mineta San Jose
22:31:42 <HackEgo> Norman Y Mineta San Jose Intl (SJC, KSJC)
22:32:01 <lambdabot> WSSS 032230Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW018 BKN180 26/24 Q1009 NOSIG
22:32:30 <shachaf> `airport international Pearson de Toronto
22:32:30 <FireFly> I guess it's too up-to-date
22:32:43 <FireFly> I wanted to find an airport that closed '74
22:32:57 <HackEgo> Toronto Coach Terminal (?, TRTO) \ Toronto Union Station (?, ?)
22:33:08 <HackEgo> Stockholm Cruise Port (STO, ?)
22:33:11 <HackEgo> Toronto Coach Terminal (?, TRTO) \ Toronto Union Station (?, ?)
22:33:24 <HackEgo> Lester B Pearson Intl (YYZ, CYYZ) \ Lester B Pearson Intl (YYZ, CYYZ)
22:33:44 <HackEgo> Arnsberg Menden (ZCA, EDLA) \ Parnu (EPU, EEPU) \ Farnborough (FAB, EGLF) \ Sundsvall Harnosand (SDL, ESNN) \ Arlanda (ARN, ESSA) \ Varna (VAR, LBWN) \ Larnaca (LCA, LCLK) \ Charnay (QNX, LFLM) \ Arnage (LME, LFRM) \ Lauro Carneiro De Loyola (JOI, SBJV) \ Alberto Carnevalli (MRD, SVMD) \ Barnaul (BAX, UNBB) \ Carnicobar (?, VOCX) \ Soekarno Hatta I
22:33:56 <HackEgo> usage: airport any|name|iata|icao key
22:34:18 <HackEgo> Hong Kong Intl (HKG, VHHH) \ Garba Tula (?, HKGT) \ Garissa (GAS, HKGA) \ Kai Tak (?, HKGX)
22:34:33 <boily> Kai Tak is still listed?
22:34:53 <HackEgo> usage: airport any|name|iata|icao key
22:35:06 <FireFly> `` airport-lookup iata ARN
22:35:33 <FireFly> `` airport-lookup icao ESS
22:35:36 <HackEgo> Arlanda (ARN, ESSA) \ Bromma (BMA, ESSB) \ Borlange (BLE, ESSD) \ Hultsfred (HLF, ESSF) \ Gavle (GVX, ESSK) \ Saab (LPI, ESSL) \ Kungsangen (NRK, ESSP) \ Eskilstuna (?, ESSU) \ Visby (VBY, ESSV) \ Torsby Airport (TYF, ESST) \ Cherskiy Airport (CYX, UESS) \ Essen HBF (ESX, ESSE) \ Vangso (?, ESSZ)
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22:39:18 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
22:39:21 <lambdabot> CYUL 032200Z 02005KT 15SM -RA FEW008 SCT020 OVC045 09/07 A2996 RMK SF1SC2SC5 SLP147 \ ENVA 032220Z 09006KT 8000 -SN VV013 00/M03 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 11009KT \ ESSB 032220Z AUTO 29003KT 9999 BKN040/
22:39:21 <lambdabot> // M01/M02 Q1015 \ KOAK 032153Z 28007KT 10SM FEW180 FEW250 21/12 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP195 T02110117 PNO \ PAMR 032153Z 19004KT 10SM CLR 02/M02 A2915 RMK AO2 SLP872 T00221017
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22:50:14 <hppavilion[1]> The difficulty of calculating the circumference of an ellipse annoys me.
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22:55:41 <hppavilion[1]> I'd like to propose a new function to simplify notation (based on the fairly reasonable- but not actually formally proven as far as I've seen- assumption that all ellipses with the same ratio between the minor and major radii have their circumference scaled the same as their radii. In other words, if you make an ellipse twice as big (along x and y), then it will have twice the circumference. This is at least true for circles. Please oh
22:57:04 <boily> there is no god, only fungot.
22:57:13 <boily> well, even fungot isn't.
22:59:05 <hppavilion[1]> pia ([paɪ.ʌ]; pi augmented). It's a function represented by an inverted minuscule pi (flipped over x, not rotated by 180°) which takes an argument p representing the proportion between the major and minor radii of an ellipse. It returns a constant c such that an ellipse where the radii have proportion p has circumference of c*r (where r is the minor radius if |p| > 1, the major radius if |p| < 1, and any radius if |p| = 1)
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23:00:27 <wob_jonas> wait... they printed a creature that costs 3R and has "Pay 3 life: Add {R} to your mana pool." and no drawbacks? that sounds like a mini-channel possible disaster
23:00:36 <wob_jonas> like, you play it and can instantly get 6 mana
23:00:47 <HackEgo> Helsinki Vantaa (HEL, EFHK)
23:00:52 <fizzie> Those are them shortcuts.
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23:03:16 <lambdabot> EGLL 032250Z AUTO 19004KT 130V250 9999 NCD 08/05 Q1016 NOSIG
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23:13:08 <shachaf> FireFly: what happened to `any twh
23:14:43 <fizzie> It felt too generic to do.
23:14:49 <fizzie> There's also no `name hth
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23:21:31 <HackEgo> Toronto Coach Terminal (?, TRTO) \ Toronto Union Station (?, ?)
23:21:55 <\oren\> how are those airports
23:28:08 <boily> wob_jonas: wellob_jonas. is it modern?
23:28:25 <HackEgo> Whakatane (WHK, NZWK) \ Whangarei (WRE, NZWR) \ Anelghowhat Airport (AUY, NVVA) \ Whale Cove Airport (YXN, CYXN) \ Whatì Airport (YLE, CEM3) \ Whyalla Airport (WYA, YWHA) \ North Whale Seaplane Base (WWP, ?) \ Whalers Bay (?, ?) \ Newhaven Ferry Port (?, ?) \ Long Wharf (?, ?)
23:28:39 <boily> then all is well ^^
23:36:38 <fizzie> http://www.checkwx.com/weather/TRTO <- clearly an airport
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23:40:40 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
23:41:07 <boily> I have found maybe one of the last of a special edition beer. It will be mailed.
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23:50:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Baby Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50107&oldid=50106 * Enoua5 * (+128)
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23:52:46 <enoua5> I've created an implementation for Baby Language. How should I go about adding that to the wiki?
23:53:27 <HackEgo> enoua5: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:53:40 <boily> enoua5: what do you mean adding it?
23:54:07 <boily> oh. linking to it. you should use: http://pastebin.ca/
23:58:45 <quintopia> i have a plan for digits in aubergine
23:59:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Baby Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50108&oldid=50090 * Enoua5 * (+94) Implemented language