00:01:37 -!- augur has joined. 00:03:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:06:20 `wisdom 00:06:21 `wisdom 00:06:21 `wisdom 00:06:22 `wisdom 00:06:22 `wisdom 00:07:11 esrb//ESRB = Eric Steven Raymond's beard 00:07:12 enrichment center//The Enrichment Center regrets to inform you that this next test is impossible. 00:07:13 banana//Bananananananana BATMAN! 00:07:13 ha//Ha van szíved, hogy mindazt, mit elértél, / Ha kell, egyetlen kockára rakd, / s túltegyed magad, ha veszteség ér, / s ne legyen róla többé egy szavad 00:07:14 ol//OL stands for Original Lyrics. A person who sings songs unmodified is called an OList. 00:07:38 `dowt ol 00:07:46 9126:2016-09-30 learn OL stands for Original Lyrics. A person who sings songs unmodified is called an OList. 00:07:50 ! 00:17:44 `? if 00:17:46 If you can make one heap of all your winnings / And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, / And lose, and start again at your beginnings / And never breathe a word about your loss: 00:17:52 thought so. 00:18:26 `? om 00:18:26 om? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:36:11 ah, Zarutian decoded `? 1337 00:41:30 `? 1337 00:41:32 1337 15 50 905 00:42:11 Oh, I get it. 00:42:15 Maybe? 00:43:07 shachaf: Are you sure? 00:43:23 I can't tell. I think the last word is "GOS" and is intentionally illegible 00:43:35 It's meant to be meaningless as a stab at 1337 00:44:23 I think it refers to a time period. 00:45:57 shachaf: Oh? 00:46:07 Problem with Lojban: No double entendres ;-; 00:47:35 ugh, should I do more work on CALESYTA? 00:47:40 not sure how much I can get done in two hours 00:47:55 writing a program much more complex than the ones I already have will probably require compiling into it 00:48:12 I've written the very backend of such a compiler (effectively a pretty-printer, which is nontrivial in this language) 00:48:23 but the rest of the work will be tedious and probably not done in time 00:49:17 a) are there /any/ good entries in wisdom? b) should we be pruning it the same way as we used to prune the quotes? 00:49:19 `uote 00:49:21 `quote 00:49:21 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: uote: not found 00:49:21 937) fungot: begrudging pat 00:49:30 ais523: That's what I was doing earlier. 00:49:36 aha 00:49:40 Oh, you weren't the one who commented on spam. 00:49:56 `5 00:50:00 1/3:846) it's kind of the multiocular O of countries, if you will \ 944) Phantom_Hoover: my department teaches prolog, to second years I think some people choose it because it isn't ocaml, and then are disappointed to find it has lists \ 1243) (on another note, I love the way that the standard way t 00:50:06 `spam 00:50:07 2/3:o indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing) \ 614) * oerjan concludes that unsafeCoerce has no effect on strictness \ 922) fungot: |open quote fungot: | just to help an fnord archive)" [...] jconn: i am just as confused. you know, that thing which y 00:50:09 `spam 00:50:10 3/3:ou might want is broken 00:50:45 those are all good quotes 00:50:54 that said, 937 wasn't really 00:50:58 we could delete that one instead, perhaps 00:52:36 `cat bin/5 00:52:37 for i in {1..5}; do quote; done | sport 00:53:33 `mkx bin/5//cmd=quote; [ "$1" == w ] && cmd=wisdom; for i in {1..5}; do "$cmd"; done | sport 00:53:39 bin/5 00:53:46 This was supposed to be about wisdoms. 00:53:47 `5 w 00:53:48 hppavilion[1]: it doesn't quite literally fit your earlier question, but have you looked at Perligata? 00:53:54 1/2:newline//Newlines are le/rn's \ biggest weakness. \ abstract nonsense//We would have an explanation of abstract nonsense here, but it fled into a diagram and we haven't been able to chase it. We will try again once we find an abstract machete. \ parsley//Parsley is a girl in the South Seas. Persil est une demoiselle des Mers du 00:53:59 `spam 00:53:59 2/2:Sud. \ ghoul//Ghouls are undead that eat BRAINS. So basically, bog standard undead like zombies or wights, but with some fancy back story in the book that nobody reads. \ northumberland//Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE! 00:54:24 oerjan: I forget the question 00:54:39 ais523: I think most wisdoms added by oerjan are good. 00:56:04 Parsley must've been me. 00:56:08 `dowt parsley 00:56:16 1791:2013-01-25 learn Parsley is a girl in the South Seas. \ 1793:2013-01-25 learn Parsley is a girl in the South Seas. Persil est une demoiselle des Mers du Sud. 00:57:10 I'm not sure why I added it, but it comes from _The 35th of May_, a book by Erich Kästner. 00:57:15 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:05:22 hppavilion[1]: you'll remember it if you look at Perligata hth 01:06:02 I didn't see the original question 01:06:11 parsley definitely seemed the weakest one to me 01:06:12 OTOH I have a good idea of what sorts of questions Perligata would be the answer to 01:06:41 `forget parsley 01:06:45 Forget what? 01:06:48 btw, how practically useful is Perligata for actually writing programs? 01:06:50 `5 w 01:06:55 well it was somewhat spread over several lines so awkward to paste 01:06:55 1/3:locale//Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8. \ theseus//Theseus was a Greek inventor who was charged with impossible-to-detect murder. He was represented by Protagoras and found not guil 01:07:02 `spam 01:07:03 2/3:ty. He changed his name to escape the publicity and has continued inventing to this day. \ eridanipoid//Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects.b_jonas//b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek. \ bfjoust/ 01:07:04 `spam 01:07:05 3/3:/bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric. 01:07:22 Pretty good how I cut it down from 10 lines to 6, huh? 01:07:31 Now I can use three more lines to gloat about it it. 01:07:36 And have it come out a net gain. 01:08:02 shachaf: there seems to be some bug in the line joining... 01:08:15 What bug? 01:08:16 shachaf: :-) 01:08:26 shachaf: objects.b_jones 01:08:41 Ah, hmm. 01:08:45 `dowt eridanipoid 01:08:47 *a 01:08:49 3307:2013-07-23 learn eridanipoid is a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. \ 3498:2013-08-28 echo "Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants." >wisdom/eridanipoid \ 3499:2013-08-28 echo -n " They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects." >>wisdom/eridanipoid \ 3500:2 01:08:55 echo -n 01:09:45 `dowg eridanipoid 01:09:51 3505:2013-08-28 revert \ 3504:2013-08-28 sed -i \'s/form dense/occur in dense/\' wisdom/eridanipoid \ 3503:2013-08-28 perl -e \'my $a = join "", <>; $a =~ s/\\n//g; print $a\' wisdom/eridanipoid >q; mv q wisdom/eridanipoid \ 3502:2013-08-28 revert \ 3501:2013-08-28 perl -i -e \'my $a = join "", 01:10:08 Has any[pb]o[nd]y ever made a programming language that behaves similar to a natural language? 01:10:18 This seems like way too much complexity to create the string in that wisdom entry. 01:10:31 `` echo >> wisdom/eridanipoid 01:10:34 No output. 01:10:52 oerjan: actually, just original Perl is also a good answer to that question 01:11:04 it was intentionally constructed along similar lines to English 01:11:08 which explains a lot, really 01:11:38 btw, on the subject of ARGENTOS: should we have foreign-language versions of the Esolang wiki? 01:11:46 IMO the spanish version should be called es.olangs.org 01:12:08 -!- The_Prospector|2 has quit (Quit: when in doubt, kernel panic). 01:13:20 -!- The_Prospector has joined. 01:13:40 ais523: the followup lines mentioned grammatical inflection and agreement. even perligata doesn't satisfy all of it. 01:14:05 oerjan: oh, I see 01:14:16 shachaf: hmph so it was my fault. at least we have `learn_append now. 01:14:46 (probably that was one of the messes that made me make it. if i was the one who made it.) 01:15:34 `sled bin/learn_append 01:15:36 usage: sled file//script 01:15:56 wait 01:15:59 `doeg bin/learn_append 01:16:00 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: doeg: not found 01:16:02 hmm 01:16:55 ais523: i doubt there's enough personpower to maintain foreign-language versions. 01:17:40 `doat bin/learn_append 01:17:47 4874:2014-09-26 mv raw.txt bin/learn_append \ 4875:2014-09-26 chmod +x bin/learn_append \ 4877:2014-09-26 sed -e \'/^M/d\' bin/learn_append > bin/learn_append \ 4879:2014-09-26 mv -f raw.txt bin/learn_append \ 4880:2014-09-26 sed -i -e \'/^M/d\' bin/learn_append > bin/learn_append \ 4882:2 01:17:58 (the names are all logical i swear) 01:18:16 I know they're logical, I just can't remember what they are :-P 01:18:16 hm looks like it was mroman 01:18:25 having them generated by rules isn't useful if you can't remember the rule 01:19:03 `? hoag 01:19:05 ​`[hd]o[aw][gt] [] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo hg logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds revision numbers and dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists oldest first. 01:19:31 (yeah i know the same applies to the name of that wisdom) 01:19:31 can we hae a rule for remembering what the rule is? 01:20:11 `? shaventions 01:20:12 Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them. 01:20:27 that list's a bit incomplete alas 01:20:50 `doat raw.txt 01:20:56 4873:2014-09-26 fetch http://codepad.org/PW0O3FBY/raw.txt \ 4874:2014-09-26 mv raw.txt bin/learn_append \ 4878:2014-09-26 fetch http://codepad.org/PW0O3FBY/raw.txt \ 4879:2014-09-26 mv -f raw.txt bin/learn_append \ 4881:2014-09-26 fetch http://codepad.org/PW0O3FBY/raw.txt \ 4882:2014-09-26 01:21:04 controversial statement: an esolang is bad if it draws a clear distinction between data storage and control flow 01:21:15 oerjan: what if there was, like, just one command, and it, like, took command line flags, man? 01:21:26 shachaf: you mean like busybox? 01:21:37 shachaf: i've actually considered that. `hog would be a good name, i think 01:21:53 ais523: I I think an just meant regular flags, not $0 01:22:10 shachaf: busybox can also be called as "busybox" and be given arguments 01:22:36 that determine which program it acts like 01:22:41 ais523: I meant more "like just about every UNIX program". 01:22:57 The options to hoag are mostly independent. 01:23:31 The scheme might need to be modified slightly for HackEgo. 01:23:51 Doing its own flag parsing on $1 or something. 01:24:29 ais523: I think an esolang is good if it defies strict guidelines like the one you proposed. 01:25:07 shachaf: I'm mostly thinking about the flood of uninteresting esolangs 01:25:14 and about what makes them uninteresting 01:25:39 BF derivatives tend to be uninteresting, but this isn't fundamentally because they're BF derivatives 01:25:44 it's because they don't bring anything new to the table in terms of the way computation is done 01:26:25 you may be looking for the word "originality" 01:26:44 oerjan: well, yes, being original is good 01:26:56 however, most of the time when an esolang is original 01:27:18 it's because it has a core idea and allows the rest of the language to flow naturally out of the idea 01:27:26 rather than using existing, well established programming patterns 01:27:47 so that tends to mean that the data and control get all mixed up with each other 01:27:48 i,i is lens an esolang 01:28:20 lens has many esolang-like properties 01:28:24 however I'm not sure it's actually a language 01:28:28 maybe it's an esolibrary? 01:29:14 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:29:37 didn't someone (Taneb?) prove lens TC 01:29:54 what does it mean for lens to be TC? 01:30:27 that you can do arbitrary computation composing only identifiers defined in lens, i guess 01:30:56 in that case, I guess lens + composition is a language 01:31:22 didn't we consider the question of how many identifiers you need for composition to be TC before now? 01:31:35 Iota shows that you only need one for application to be TC 01:31:44 however, composition has the issue that it's associative 01:31:50 which makes it rather harder to write programs with it 01:32:18 underload with something else replacing (), iirc 01:32:24 oh right, dei 01:32:29 that wasn't really minimized though 01:32:36 we proved it TC but didn't go beyond that 01:33:23 also the dei command is stateful, so isn't ideal 01:34:22 technically any language where commands are always interpreted in strict order may considered as using composition 01:34:30 i think 01:34:59 e.g. emmental 01:35:15 (not very minimal either) 01:35:18 I guess working from Underload, we can have (:) (^) (a) (*) ^ as five combinators that are TC under composition 01:35:38 (annoying that you need both (^) and ^ but I don't think there's any way to work around it) 01:36:17 maybe there's an alternate minimization 01:37:26 you'd imagine there could be some way with just two commands. 01:37:29 yes 01:37:36 I don't think it's based on Underload though 01:38:47 + = increment top of stack, ^ = interpret top of stack as underload program in unary. hth hth :P 01:38:50 oops 01:39:07 ooh: (((:)(^)(a)(*))(~)(~)) ! ^ 01:39:20 oh that's true 01:39:31 calling the first combinator L, we can get (~) via L^^! 01:39:36 and ~ via (~)^, obviously 01:40:13 once we have ~ and ! we can extract all the other elements of the lookup table that's produced via L!!^ 01:40:39 actually I think we can simplify L to ((~)(:)(^)(a)(*)) 01:41:00 (you'd probably want to put (!) and maybe even (S) in there too but they aren't needed for Turing completeness) 01:41:33 if you're pushing (~) at the bottom, you can get ~ via L!!!!^, and that in turn lets you get at the other lookup table elements 01:41:49 I agree that there's probably some way to do it with two commands though 01:41:50 ais523: you could also use the pre-! trick from my tables 01:41:50 (((:))(!(^))(!!(a)) ... ) 01:42:30 ooh: ^(~)(:)(^)(a)(*) and ! works I think 01:42:38 (although obviously you have to start with a nonempty stack) 01:42:49 let's call the first combinator M 01:43:23 i was imagining something + ^ 01:43:55 the idea is that you always maintain (~)(:)(^)(a)(*) on top of the stack after running a command 01:44:14 then !!!!M lets you swap the two stack elements below that, giving you a working ~ 01:44:29 i think not being able to initialize the stack is a bit scow 01:44:57 have you submitted your calesyta entry 01:45:04 yes, via reference 01:45:06 so I can still update it 01:45:08 aha 01:45:17 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:45:45 actually, let me revise M to (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)() 01:45:48 and start with () on the stack 01:46:04 * revise M to ^(~)(:)(^)(a)(*)() 01:46:10 it's much easier to prove that works 01:46:26 you always maintain (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)() on top of the stack between each command run 01:46:40 running M from that state pushes (~)(:)(^)(a)(*) onto the section of the stack below the invariant 01:47:19 wait, I need an (!!) in there too 01:47:30 let M be ^(~)(!!)(^)(a)(*)() 01:47:49 *let M be ^(~)(!!)(:)(^)(a)(*)() 01:48:27 M pushes our six commands onto the usable portion of the stack; !!!!!M pops the usable portion of the stack; !!!!!!M swaps the top two commands in the usable portion of the stack 01:48:35 thus we can get any of the commands to the top of the usable portion 01:48:42 and then execute it using !!!!!!!M 01:48:42 oerjan: Does your "hth" not expand to "hope that helps"? 01:49:16 that gives us a fully working Underload-without-S, as ! can be expressed as :!! 01:49:51 so I guess the next questions are, is there a way that works from an empty stack, and is there a simpler way? 01:50:12 Ox0dea: whatever gave you that idea 01:50:24 * oerjan whistles innocently 01:50:29 oerjan: It's the standard interpretation, anyway. 01:50:33 I think it has a meaning of its own at this point 01:50:37 I've just never seen it used twice in a row like that. 01:50:40 which may or may not have anything to do with the expansion 01:51:05 like, it sort of means "hope that helps" but is normally used passive-aggressively, or perhaps ironically? 01:51:26 No, not normally. 01:51:40 I mean, by oerjan 01:51:45 Fair enough. 01:52:01 Ox0dea: the twice in a row is an artifact of a script i'm running hth 01:52:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 01:52:12 (it chops off one hth from the end of my lines) 01:53:00 oerjan: is the script an attempt to cure your hth addiction? 01:55:46 ais523: it was. written by elliott. 01:59:11 `? hth 01:59:13 hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. 01:59:30 Huh. 02:00:19 oerjan: tsh 02:00:35 Pretty sure "hth" is the IRC equivalent of punctuation 02:02:22 -!- boily has joined. 02:03:45 oerjan: OK, if you want it to work from an empty stack: (~)(!!)(a)(*)(:)(!!!!!!!!!!^)()()()() and ^ 02:04:03 ais523: damn i'd almost got it 02:04:40 ((:))(!(^))(!!(a))(!!!(*))(!!!!^)(!!!!!!!) and ^ 02:04:42 L^^^^L^^^^^ gives you ~, L^^^L^^^^^ gives you ! 02:05:12 from L, ~, ! you have (~), (!!), (a), (*) (:), (!!!!!!!!!^) 02:05:46 now you have * (via (*)^) and the above constructions, you can form (:!!) and (:::::::::!!!!!!!!!^) 02:05:59 giving you all the quoted single Underload commands 02:06:11 those plus * and a (i.e. (a)^) give you arbitrary Underload commands 02:06:19 and from there it's just standard Underload 02:06:20 Matt Smith is apparently the King of Greece and Spain 02:06:49 ooh, I like your solution 02:06:50 Oh, Prince Phillip 02:06:55 it's using the same principle, right? 02:07:12 well i'm guessing they're similar 02:07:56 with your construction L^ is ! directly, then you can use L!!^ for (*), L!!!^ for (a), L!!!!^ for (^), L!!!!!^ for (:) 02:08:03 I don't see why you need the (!!!!^) case though 02:08:03 yeah 02:08:13 oh right 02:08:22 i was just starting with your original list above 02:08:43 you already have a ^ by itself so you don't need to be able to find an unquoted ^ in L 02:09:06 indeed. 02:09:19 ((:))(!(^))(!!(a))(!!!(*))(!!!!!!) and ^ 02:09:36 yours is simpler; do you want to add it to the article? 02:10:18 unless you can think of further simplifications 02:13:10 (:)(a)(!!(^))(!!!(*))(!!!!!!) and ^ is simpler 02:13:34 wait, I mean 02:13:39 (:)(!a)(!!(^))(!!!(*))(!!!!!!) and ^ is simpler 02:13:42 hm can combine your idea of (~) at the bottom with it 02:13:42 (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!) and ^ 02:13:42 i think 02:13:42 then you get ~, which allows you to do remove the bottom ones 02:13:42 er 02:13:43 (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!!) and ^ 02:13:59 oh yes, with ~ at the bottom things work out much simpler 02:14:06 that's the same space I was working in 02:14:18 (also apparently I was lagging, I got a burst of your messages all at once) 02:14:25 ah 02:14:40 also it is six ! 02:14:43 not seven 02:14:59 because L^ needs to work as ! 02:15:23 oh thinko 02:15:42 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 02:16:05 so right, this construction gives us L^ as !, L!!!!!^ as ~ 02:16:32 then combining L, ~ and ! lets us put any element of L on top of the stack individually, which we can run with ^ or just use as data 02:16:52 we don't even need to be able to produce (!) for TCness, but we can via forming (:::::!!!!!!) 02:17:28 theorem: no Underload quine contains exactly one ^ 02:17:43 heh 02:18:02 should i add S to it, just to have it reproduce all underload? 02:18:03 also I think they all require at least two : 02:18:23 that's a good reason to add it, but there's also a good reason not to 02:18:29 you can't produce arbitrary strings with this construction 02:18:34 so S doesn't have its full power anyway 02:18:42 hm true 02:18:48 (you can produce programs /with the effect of/ arbitrary programs, but sometimes they use different code) 02:24:38 I guess instead of adding S, you could add a full ASCIIbet 02:25:00 (( )(!)($)…(A)(B)(C)…(~)) 02:25:06 plus the nonprintables if you care about those 02:27:21 ais523: TIL in the UK, "lieutenant" is sometimes pronounced with [lɛf] at the start. 02:27:29 What the actual fuck UK. 02:27:36 hppavilion[1]: it's usually pronounced left-tenant here 02:27:37 no idea why 02:27:47 (TIL that in the UK, not TIL while in the UK) 02:28:01 it's a lot like the pronunciation of "colonel" 02:28:36 @massages-loud 02:28:36 You don't have any messages 02:29:49 FR: if someone misspells "messages" in the command name, misspell it the same way in the lack-of-messages report 02:30:38 What if they misspell "loud"? 02:30:45 shachaf: What? [cɑː(l|ɫ)nɛɫ]?? 02:30:58 I don't read IPA. 02:31:14 shachaf: You should twh 02:31:28 shachaf: The only way of writing it in non-IPA is "colnel" 02:31:38 Which isn't helpful 02:31:55 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English 02:32:05 ais523: i'm going to go with just showing how to get enough for TC-ness. 02:32:15 To my knowledge, the pronunciation of "colonel" is the same in US and UK English. 02:32:23 In both cases it's pronounced like the word "kernel". 02:33:43 /kɔlɔnɛl/, tsé. 02:33:55 shachaf: No. No it is not. 02:34:00 That makes no sense. 02:34:23 apparently you have no clue hth 02:34:30 (or, in the uk, no cluedo) 02:35:00 * boily *thwedoes* shachaf. 0.20 FP. 02:35:06 Hm, clearly, the glottal stop is the semivowel form of [ə] :P 02:36:18 [wiki] [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50242&oldid=43694 * Oerjan * (+792) /* A two-command basis for a concatenative language */ 02:38:50 ais523: his523. it's not a misspalling hth 02:39:16 @messageese-loud 02:39:16 You don't have any messages 02:40:18 @@ (@tell boily duck) (@tell boily duck) 02:40:18 Consider it noted. Consider it noted. 02:41:13 20 minutes to CALESYTA deadline 02:43:36 @massages-loud 02:43:36 shachaf said 3m 18s ago: duck 02:43:36 shachaf said 3m 18s ago: duck 02:43:36 shachaf said 3m 15s ago: goose 02:43:41 uh. 02:43:44 eh? 02:43:52 where did that goose come from. 02:43:57 see above hth 02:44:20 `5 w 02:44:29 the above doesn't help. all I see is a doubleduck. 02:44:30 1/2:☾_//☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers. \ le/arn//lern 2 spel \ monad//Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors. \ i,i//i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and I want to distract myself by saying". \ muphrys law//Mumphrie's 02:44:34 * boily is perplexed. 02:44:35 `spam 02:44:36 2/2: Law says things will be misspelled at the worst possible moment. 02:44:46 18:39 @messageese-loud 02:44:50 boily: Time difference? 02:44:56 boily: a double duck is a lot like a double dactyl 02:45:06 Oh xD 02:45:09 `quote iggledy 02:45:10 * boily is completely confuzzled. 02:45:11 No output. 02:45:24 `grwp iggledy 02:45:33 hppavilion1:higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed \ Binary file reflection matches 02:45:53 that's not a very good double dactyl tdnh 02:46:51 shachaf: I'm pentadactyl 02:51:21 -!- boily has quit (Quit: KNEAD CHICKEN). 02:56:27 When Taneb becomes wise, he'll change his name to Tanwb. <-- somehow the natural way to pronounce that leaves the wrong impression. 02:58:32 oerjan: What's the natural way? 02:58:42 [tæn.u:b]? 02:59:19 yeah 02:59:55 Don't see hwo.. 03:00:04 darcs clone http://nethack4.org/esolangs/calesyta-2016 03:00:08 *how... 03:00:08 ^ my CALESYTA submission 03:00:11 note: will not work in a web browser 03:00:20 I guess it sounds vaguely like “tan lube” if you squint kinda funny. 03:00:30 ais523: It's forbotten 03:00:50 note: will not work in a web browser 03:00:54 (or however you spell it germanly) 03:01:06 ais523: Yeah, but the site won't open at all? 03:01:07 use darcs 03:01:11 Oh, I see 03:01:17 I guess? 03:01:30 I thought you meant there wasn't a JS runner 03:02:14 well, there isn't :-) 03:02:27 ais523: Well yes, but I figured that was all 03:02:31 What exactly is darcs? 03:03:04 -!- Froox has joined. 03:03:10 version control system 03:03:54 Figured 03:05:59 oerjan: Tan W. B.? 03:06:07 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 03:06:16 Named after W. B. Yeats, I'm sure. 03:08:46 <\oren\> colonel is clearly pronounced as :L 03:09:40 -!- Froox has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*). 03:10:03 -!- Frooxius has joined. 03:12:22 <\oren\> I have a new, original, completely unoriginal idea 03:13:40 Use Tor hops for computation. 03:14:08 What could possibly go right? 03:15:24 -!- augur has joined. 03:15:37 -!- hppavilion[i] has joined. 03:15:44 Huh, apparently I have irssi 03:15:50 hppavilion[1]: cool 03:15:59 hppavilion[i]: yep 03:16:01 `? monad 03:16:03 `? monads 03:16:11 Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors. 03:16:13 Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras. 03:16:42 Wait, what? 03:16:45 `? monad 03:16:46 Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors. 03:16:47 `? monad 03:16:48 Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors. 03:16:50 Huh. 03:17:00 it was a fluke hth 03:17:18 I seem to remember `? automatically *-sing 03:17:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:18:03 oerjan: I've often wanted to make `? support a little language rather than just catting files. 03:18:24 So wisdoms can e.g. embed other wisdoms, rather than relying on symlinks. 03:18:30 And maybe other features? I don't remember. 03:18:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 03:18:55 shachaf: Yeah, I like that oo 03:19:02 *too 03:19:09 oerjan: On the other hand I think it's probably not worth the complexity. 03:19:22 `` grep -FRl '^#!' wisdom 03:19:27 shachaf: You do not belong in this channel hth 03:19:29 wisdom/reflection 03:19:39 `? reflection 03:19:40 `` grep -Rl '^#!' wisdom 03:19:41 cat.reflection. 03:19:43 No output. 03:19:58 ``` help 03:19:59 GNU bash, version 4.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) \ These shell commands are defined internally. Type `help' to see this list. \ Type `help name' to find out more about the function `name'. \ Use `info bash' to find out more about the shell in general. \ Use `man -k' or `info' to find out more about commands not in this list. \ \ A star ( 03:20:55 `` cat wisdom/reflection 03:20:57 cat.wisdom/reflection. 03:21:05 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 03:21:12 *sigh* 03:21:19 `paste wisdom/reflection 03:21:22 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/reflection 03:21:44 Apparently, /proc/self/cmdline 03:21:47 `` readlink wisdom/reflection 03:21:49 ​/proc/self/cmdline 03:22:14 Last edited 12 hours ago, apparently 03:22:18 `paste bin/? 03:22:21 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/%3F 03:22:36 When I saw the cat.wisdom/reflection. I guessed that it might be a symlink to /proc/self/cmdline 03:22:39 `? eridanipoid 03:22:39 Jafet: I don't think it's a good idea to have multiline wisdoms. 03:22:41 Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects. 03:22:48 Jafet: It's easier to edit one-line files. 03:23:16 why do you think #! scripts need to have multiple lines? 03:23:32 Jafet: the #? 03:23:42 Because one line is #! and the other line is the contents. 03:23:56 (Although, some #! scripts might not need a second line, most probably would need.) 03:23:59 I don't think they need to be multiple lines. 03:24:06 Spanish shebangs are much more complicated 03:24:11 ¡#! 03:24:16 I'm just saying, I don't think it would be a good idea to make them multiline. 03:24:31 I agree with that 03:24:39 Glad we're in agreement. 03:24:46 I agree too! 03:25:35 shachaf: What would a language designed for wisdom look like? Would it be an established Unixoidal thing, or new? 03:33:44 Unixodal!!!!! 03:33:45 er 03:34:04 I wrote three !s first, and then checked the spelling, and somehow added two instead instead of one. 03:36:17 shachaf: Wait, what? 03:36:27 Why was 4! special 03:37:09 24 is a pretty special number for all sorts of reasons hth 03:39:51 3! is more special. it's perfect hth 03:40:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:41:25 -!- hppavilion[i] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:47:56 -!- hppavilion[i] has joined. 03:48:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 03:56:21 Hmm, can you make string diagrams for parallel/serial sum? 03:56:41 Does parallel sum correspond to some sort of tensor product? 03:59:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:01:48 Cale: whoa whoa whoa, maybe https://www.irif.fr/~mellies/tensorial-logic/hopf-in-lux-1.pdf is connected 04:02:55 Pretty neat slides. String diagrams and game semantics. 04:03:05 I should learn about tensorial logic. 04:08:25 Is there a Haskell interpreter in JavaScript (preferably with the ability to compile the code it interprets into a JavaScript function too, that can then be callable by a JavaScript code)? I think this can help if writing part of a program in Haskell and some in JavaScript, for example if making an implementation of Eleusis card game then it can help for the dealer to write the secret rule as a Haskell code. 04:08:40 you can compile ghc to js 04:08:41 hth 04:08:49 I'm not sure whether ghcjs can compile itself yet. 04:09:34 zzo38: can you please put a copy of the eleusis rules somewhere btw? 04:09:38 I have been trying to track one down 04:10:03 they're very eleusive 04:10:07 OK I will try to write down 04:39:36 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY41O4cmlEM 04:41:40 -!- hppavilion[i] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:42:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 04:52:58 alercah: there's a list of books that contain the rules of Eleusis here: http://www.logicmazes.com/games/eleusis/eleusis2.html 04:53:10 unfortunately it doesn't contain the rules themselves, just a pointer to them 04:53:19 you might want to see if any of the books are in a local library 04:54:14 cool 04:54:15 ty 05:05:03 I did start writing the rules. 05:05:07 I will post a link once I have done so. 05:05:13 thank you 05:14:28 ais523: Hmm, I think the wisdom database is like the quotes file, except it's for when people think they're being funny, rather than when other people think they're funny. 05:14:47 (Funny or some other property.) 05:14:53 http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/gamerules/eleusis This file can also be access by gopher with the same selector (except the initial slash). 05:15:02 That would explain the quality difference. 05:15:11 Wisdom entries should be peer-reviewed. 05:15:14 alercah: Is this good? 05:15:47 zzo38: I will have to review tomorrow or thursday 05:15:49 thank you 05:18:06 -!- farrioth has joined. 05:20:05 `addquote ais523: Hmm, I think the wisdom database is like the quotes file, except it's for when people think they're being funny, rather than when other people think they're funny. 05:20:14 `welcome farrioth 05:20:16 1298) ais523: Hmm, I think the wisdom database is like the quotes file, except it's for when people think they're being funny, rather than when other people think they're funny. 05:20:18 farrioth: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 05:20:47 shachaf: fwiw I added that because I thought it was insightful, rather than because I thought it was funny 05:21:03 Right. But you added it without the clarification. 05:21:18 I only said funny because I think that's what most wisdom entries are trying to be. 05:21:39 I did not add any sentence from the book; I wrote the rules by myself! 05:22:05 ais523: :) 05:22:39 (However, anyone else who knows the rules can tell me if I wrote anything wrong.) 05:22:42 oh, for some reason I missed the clarification, probably because it was between a ping and a URL 05:22:59 although it probably works better without when seen from the quotees database 05:23:00 *quotes 05:39:38 Some parents assert their right to send their kid to school without vaccinating them. 05:39:40 They are wrong. 05:39:52 Some argue that if they homeschool the kid, it's OK. 05:39:53 They are wrong. 05:40:09 ais523: I thinkt he clarification was awkwardly phrased. 05:40:10 Are you sure? 05:40:20 You vaccinate your fucking kid or your parenthood is revoked. 05:40:37 or even your adopted kid 05:41:52 shachaf: ...what's the joke, adopted- oh, I get it. 05:41:54 hppavilion[1]: Agreed. 05:43:40 `! c printf("%d", (int)(unsigned char)('.'-96)); 05:43:57 206 05:44:06 Would you like the role playing system where the magic subsystem is including mathematical category theory and abstract algebra, the ability to both add and multiply different colours of mana, interactions between multiple spells prepared at once, and so on? 05:44:07 `! c printf("%d", (int)(unsigned char)('.'-96-128)); 05:44:14 zzo38: no 05:44:20 78 05:44:26 in general I prefer my role playing systems to have simpler rules 05:44:43 What system do you prefer then? 05:44:54 I think you might be able to have a system with simple rules that satisfies zzo38's description. 05:44:58 But it would be tricky. 05:45:30 Different color of mana is similar to that of Magic: the Gathering. 05:45:37 But the magma system is pretty important. 05:45:37 zzo38: I was reading a few games of Roll to Dodge recently 05:45:46 it is about the simplest possible roleplaying system that has an action resolution method 05:45:47 The one in Magic: The Gathering is way too complicated. 05:46:18 the rules are: you declare your action, then roll a d6; if it comes up as a 5 the action worked 05:46:44 (And you can specialize in as many colours of magic as you want, in whatever proportion you want; you can have 100% red and no others if you want, but that means less versatility.) 05:46:45 Some of the best roleplaying I've done was when we were camping and wanted to play D&D but could only find one D6, so came up with some simplified rules. 05:46:51 1-4 are various strengths of failure or working imperfectly (the details vary from game to game, but generally 1 is a complete failure / reverse of what you intended, 4 is a partial or mostly success) 05:47:08 Six meaning what? 05:47:13 It was actually quite similar to what ais523 just described. 05:47:19 if the dice is a 6 then the action fails in the other direction, i.e. fails to produce the intended effect because it produced a larger one 05:47:58 it is, in general, not a system that's very suited to serious games 05:48:11 it's more for frivolous games 05:48:22 I don't like that system very much it does not make much sense to me. It is simple, but simple is no good if it is wrong. 05:48:23 because it has the obvious problem that all actions are equally likely to succeed 05:48:40 Yes, that is one of the problems. 05:49:41 I think it could be improved by doing something along the lines of "a 5 causes the action to succeed to the greatest extent that would be reasonably possible; a 3 causes the action to succeed to the extent that would be typically expected under normal circumstances; etc." 05:49:49 In the system I used, characters had modifiers (+/- 1 or 2 or so) for various traits, and the modifier for the relevant trait was added to the roll for the skill. 05:50:03 a +1 modifier is very large in a d6 system 05:50:13 Yeah. 05:50:19 Dungeons&Dragons uses 1d20 to check for success, while GURPS uses 3d6; these result in different distributions. 05:50:22 It suited the slightly silly nature of the campaign, though. 05:50:40 Actually; did we use nD6 where n > 1? I think we did. 05:50:49 anyway, I'm currently trying to write a quine in a rather restricted programming language (not my CALESYTA language, a different one) 05:51:26 ais523: In what programming language? Is it currently a secret until you write a quine? 05:51:39 and am coming across the problem of "how do I figure out how to stop writing the 'outside' program and start writing the escaped representation of the data"? 05:51:45 zzo38: it's called Verity, it isn't very well known 05:51:54 I assumed nobody would know the language so specifying it wouldn't help 05:52:52 ooh, I know what I got wrong here 05:53:11 I forgot to swap the octal digits of each number 05:53:46 (I'm storing the data in octal, using a 6-byte character set; the output is in ASCII but I'm using only 64 distinct characters and transcoding in order to make the data storage shorter) 05:54:00 OK 05:54:05 Oh, I think I heard of Verity. 05:54:06 http://www.veritygos.org/language ? 05:54:17 I'm not sure where I heard about it. Maybe it was here. 05:55:37 shachaf: yes 05:55:44 and probably here, because I was hired to work on it 05:55:55 Ah, makes sense. 05:56:17 it's crazily hard to come up with a character that isn't naturally used all over the program and won't break the program when added 05:57:55 I have written a quine in SQL, in BASIC, and in FurryScript, as well as some others. I have invented FurryScript and some other programming languages for specific use, such as OAA, TAVERN, INQUIZ, etc, although I have not attempted to write a quine in any of those. (I doubt a quine is possible in INQUIZ anyways; it is too restrictive.) 05:58:28 ooh, I think I can use unary minus 05:58:36 I tried it before but it didn't work 05:58:39 and now I can make it work 05:58:50 `! c printf("%d", '-'); 05:58:57 45 05:59:03 yes, that's in my character set 06:04:06 `! c printf("%o", '-'); 06:04:16 55 06:04:38 O, that is what you are trying to do. 06:06:30 oh wow, is that a silly parsing behaviour 06:06:44 Verity parses (-a-b-c) as (-(a-b-c)) 06:06:53 which is correct given the way unary minus is defined to work 06:06:55 but really unintuitive 06:07:53 Fun fact. In Minnesota, it's illegal to dump or deposit snow on the road. 06:07:54 https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=169.42 06:08:31 That's a lovely piece of esoterica. 06:13:51 `! c printf("%d", '|'); 06:14:00 124 06:14:21 `! c printf("%c", 92); 06:14:26 ​\ 06:14:44 oh, whoops 06:49:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:54:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 07:14:27 copumpkin: Did you ever see mauke's sizeof.c C puzzler? 07:24:03 copumpkin: https://gist.github.com/ivant/1454460 07:29:08 I think this one's a little more interesting, honestly: https://eval.in/678550 07:29:32 I suppose they both demonstrate the same two "quirks". 07:59:01 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:09:30 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:17:10 [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50243&oldid=50235 * Slnetaiga * (+23) Added EntropyAssembler 08:22:16 I should really write some Funge-98 some time. I've only written things in Befunge-93 up until now. 08:29:25 farrioth: fungot is written entirely in funge-98 08:29:25 hppavilion[1]: madam president, you will see that not all our recommendations have been tabled, it will be no unanimity within the council. 08:29:33 (mostly by hand, aside from the word-modules) 08:29:48 [wiki] [[EntropyAssembler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50244 * Slnetaiga * (+796) Created page with "'''EntropyAssembler''', is an esoteric programming language with syntax like assembler, but datas in registers decays while programm runs(like in [[Entropy]]). == Examples ==..." 08:29:57 Sorry, fungot, but Trump won the presidency. Not Hillary. 08:29:58 hppavilion[1]: mrs banotti, so ensuring that we will be able to line their pockets nicely, which is as useful as possible, complemented by the euro-mediterranean ministerial conference on drugs policy in europe is prepared to improve its resources for mobilisation, monitoring and prevention. 08:30:10 ^style 08:30:10 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 08:30:19 Oh, that's awesome xD 08:30:26 (So I guess it isn't US President) 08:30:35 Didn't know the European parliament was an option 08:30:43 wait, style=fungot? 08:30:44 hppavilion[1]: madam president, i am glad that you are only partially responsible for what, according to information available to us, and we use no more than 2% of the european peoples' party, i have here the text of the regulation on leghold traps will never finish. we are a long way to go, because, of course, there was a lot of the educational facilities and so on; that indigenous culture will be promoted and protected. the c 08:31:05 Wow, the european parliament is VERY regular 08:31:10 ^style lovecraft 08:31:10 Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings) 08:31:16 fungot: boooop 08:31:16 hppavilion[1]: " beauty is truth truth beauty" that is all. if my sanity is still fnord, i later met and fnord and stumbles to bring it to you. do the same. fnord acid and even aqua fnord merely hissed and spattered against its torrid fnord. ammi had difficulty in recalling all these things began to acquire a dark and 08:32:10 hppavilion[1]: Wait, a bot in funge-98? 08:32:14 farrioth: Yes. 08:32:17 farrioth: Entirely 08:32:38 hppavilion[1]: Whoever is responsible for that impresses me. 08:32:49 hppavilion[1]: Is the source code available? 08:32:57 farrioth: fizzie. Either autistic, a genius, or just a very boring person 08:32:58 farrioth: https://github.com/fis/fungot 08:33:19 farrioth: I think there are at least partial implementations in other languages too 08:35:08 hppavilion[1]: I shall check it out. 08:36:57 i feel like that is maybe not an appropriate thing to say here 08:37:03 but maybe i'm missing some context 08:37:26 shachaf: Which part? 08:37:46 shachaf: Huh? 08:38:16 i'll let what's-his-name say, i guess 08:38:21 shachaf: This is the internet, sugarplum. 08:38:37 Ox0dea: This is #esoteric, fig 08:38:52 i ain't your sugarplum 08:38:53 (the small levenshtein distance to "fag" there was entirely unintentional) 08:39:01 [wiki] [[EntropyAssembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50245&oldid=50244 * Slnetaiga * (+1083) 08:39:07 hppavilion[1]: Please do your part to maintain the safety of this space. 08:39:18 Ox0dea: wat? 08:39:19 please do your part to go away 08:39:26 [wiki] [[EntropyAssembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50246&oldid=50245 * Slnetaiga * (-2) 08:39:28 shachaf: Which person? 08:39:32 I am confus 08:39:35 [wiki] [[EntropyAssembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50247&oldid=50246 * Slnetaiga * (+1) 08:39:56 [wiki] [[EntropyAssembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50248&oldid=50247 * Slnetaiga * (-3) 08:40:05 You initially caught shachaf's ire for "accusing" someone of potentially being autistic. 08:40:35 hppavilion[1]: rofl re levenshtein distance 08:41:03 that is not exactly an accurate characterization 08:41:12 I'm sure it's very close. 08:41:24 You're not exactly an accurate characterization. 08:41:29 08:42:06 08:42:15 08:42:27 Ox0dea: This isn't html tdnh 08:42:38 \begin{vodka} 08:42:47 Not even XML, it's just that the parts used so far just happen to have looked like XML 08:42:56 zzo38: Care to interject with some RTF? 08:44:02 farrioth: TeX tdh 08:47:43 [wiki] [[User:Slnetaiga]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50249&oldid=50165 * Slnetaiga * (+23) 08:57:47 -!- testac3 has joined. 09:03:06 -!- testac3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:07:08 -!- testac3 has joined. 09:07:10 -!- testac3 has left. 09:20:40 FIRST SNOW OF THE YEAR TODAY! 09:23:35 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:24:13 b_jonas: ...really? 09:24:20 b_jonas: It snowed for us, like, a month ago 09:24:37 b_jonas: We already have trucks sliding down driveways into the road 09:24:45 b_jonas: Your peasant weather makes me laugh 09:24:51 `? weather 09:24:57 lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR 09:25:01 CYUL 160900Z 03012KT 6SM -DZ BR BKN005 BKN012 OVC020 06/05 A2973 RMK SF6SF1SC1 SLP070 \ ENVA 160850Z 11010KT CAVOK 07/M01 Q0994 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 15016KT \ ESSB 160920Z VRB03KT CAVOK 00/00 Q1007 09:25:01 R30/29//68 \ KOAK 160853Z 29011KT 10SM FEW008 14/09 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP194 T01390089 56002 \ PAMR 160853Z 08003KT 10SM SCT055 SCT130 M05/M08 A3008 RMK SLP187 T10501078 400221050 51023 $ VIA AUTODIAL 09:25:15 hppavilion[1]: oh, trucks sliding is easy, they can do that if it rains, because they use bad tires 09:25:22 we don't need snow for that 09:25:48 I have attached Zork I to my taskbar for fast launching :D 09:26:21 00/00 09:26:47 -!- farrioth has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:26:50 Oh, and apparently, Gellato is made by extracting it directly from Satan's testicles 09:27:02 FireFly: I dew! 09:31:44 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:37:45 @metar EGLL 09:37:45 EGLL 160920Z AUTO 26013KT 9999 NCD 12/09 Q1016 NOSIG 09:38:21 That's so hot. 09:39:08 `airport EGLL 09:39:13 Heathrow (LHR, EGLL) 09:39:24 @metar LLBG 09:39:24 LLBG 160920Z 27014KT 9999 SCT040 23/12 Q1015 NOSIG 09:39:32 @metar KSJC 09:39:33 KSJC 160853Z AUTO 28011KT 10SM SCT022 14/09 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP194 T01390094 56002 09:41:11 23/12?? 09:41:39 > 23/12 09:41:41 1.9166666666666667 09:41:46 that's almost 2 09:41:59 which is still warmer than here 09:42:10 though well, I guess 0/0 is indeterminate 09:43:07 @metar ESSB 09:43:07 ESSB 160920Z VRB03KT CAVOK 00/00 Q1007 R30/29//68 09:43:27 @metar ENSB 09:43:27 ENSB 160920Z 12014KT 9999 FEW022 SCT030 BKN200 03/M01 Q0975 NOSIG RMK WIND 1400FT 09020KT 10:00:45 -!- centrinia has joined. 10:10:34 [wiki] [[Incident]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50250 * B jonas * (+219) Created page with "'''Incident''' is a language [[User:ais523]] has created. For information, see the darcs repository at http://nethack4.org/esolangs/calesyta-2016 (not accessible through HTTP..." 10:12:39 [wiki] [[Incident]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50251&oldid=50250 * B jonas * (+25) 10:13:45 [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50252&oldid=47204 * B jonas * (+14) 10:14:15 [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50253&oldid=50243 * B jonas * (+15) 10:17:37 @tell ais523 Note that the earlier esolang Ellipsis uses ".." as the recommended file extension, so so the "...." extension you use for Incident can clash 10:17:37 Consider it noted. 10:19:37 FireFly: My pun was better. 10:19:57 I didn't even pun.. 10:20:03 FireFly: 0/0 10:20:11 that's not really a pun 10:20:12 but okay 10:20:24 FireFly: 00/00 doesn't mean divide 0 by 0 10:20:25 hth 10:21:14 …it was a response to shachaf's 23/12 10:21:21 Yes? 10:21:22 context! 10:21:36 FireFly: I saw context, it just didn't make sense there either 10:21:45 * FireFly shrugs 10:22:27 FireFly: swan lake is p. good huh 10:22:35 hppavilion[1]: I guess our opinion is divided on the matter 10:23:01 `quote 10:23:08 997) "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.) 10:23:09 FireFly: And my pun should at least be acknowledged ;-; 10:23:14 SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP 10:23:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:23:17 `quote 10:23:19 756) i have a simple view of reality that goes something like this.. once your sufficiently well tied up.. it doesn't make a difference if your enemy has a knife or a gun.. you're equally screwed 10:23:26 shachaf: I don't know, is it? 10:23:33 `quote 10:23:33 989) My opinion is that you are all wrong, as far as I can tell. 10:23:38 `quote 10:23:39 1072) my emergency contacts list somehow has my father listed in both slots, in one of them as my daughter 10:23:47 i asked first hth 10:23:58 Well, I wouldn't know 10:24:24 Oh. 10:24:26 `quote 10:24:27 593) elliott: it occurs to me that `? welcome is atypical: its information is actually true. 10:24:32 Then you should listen to it, and then you'll know that it's good. 10:24:38 I see 10:25:07 If you don't trust ballet, you could play the game Loom, I guess. 10:38:06 -!- impomatic_ has joined. 10:45:40 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:57:31 -!- trn has joined. 11:44:36 -!- impomatic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:48:09 -!- otherbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:09:47 -!- Ox0dea has left ("WeeChat 1.7-dev"). 12:39:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:56:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:38:19 oh! 13:40:52 @tell oerjan For a two-command generator of underload, isn't there already a less efficient solution: using ^ and (U) where U is a generator of ski-combinator calculus? It is well-known that the latter exists, and you can translate it to an underload term. 13:40:52 Consider it noted. 13:53:16 shachaf : hm, last slide reminds me of "Category Theory and Concrete Universals" by David P. Ellerman in 1998-05 at .. 13:58:26 -!- otherbot has joined. 13:58:44 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:58:58 -!- otherbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:59:21 -!- otherbot has joined. 13:59:23 -!- otherbot_ has joined. 13:59:35 -!- otherbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:00:08 -!- izalove has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:07:21 -!- izalove has joined. 14:15:06 Instead of that crazy complicated rule 305.7 for the Spreading Seas ability, shouldn't they have made a rule that makes that effect an ordinary copy effect that copies from the Island card? 14:15:31 I know it's not the same when it interacts with some more tricky effects, but it wouldn't be that much of a change, and it would simplify the rules a lot. 14:17:19 -!- tromp_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:17:54 -!- tromp_ has joined. 14:47:02 -!- otherbot_ has changed nick to otterbot. 14:50:17 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:58:54 do you guys think that hexadecimal digits should be written in lowercase? C accepts either lowercase or uppercase. many people prefer lowercase. but TeX and dc accept only uppercase. I used to prefer lowercase because they're easier to distinguish from the digits, but these days I'm conflicted. 15:03:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:06:00 @messages-foul 15:06:00 b_jonas said 1h 25m 7s ago: For a two-command generator of underload, isn't there already a less efficient solution: using ^ and (U) where U is a generator of ski-combinator calculus? It is well- 15:06:00 known that the latter exists, and you can translate it to an underload term. 15:06:27 b_jonas: yeah theoretically it was fairly obvious. 15:08:06 * ski would usually prefer lower case 15:09:43 o kay 15:15:16 @tell Zarutian Please don't modify HackEgo in private twh 15:15:16 Consider it noted. 15:15:28 fizzie: also, HackEgo seems to be gone 15:15:53 or rather, floating in the inter-channel void 15:16:37 (why does it do that :( ) 15:16:47 * ski (started with and) mostly used hexadecimal on 6502 and 680x0, though 15:18:11 * oerjan learns that his conclusion that ski was responding to the @message was incorrect 15:19:16 `` dowg | grep Zarutian 15:19:27 bah 15:19:36 ANYWAY 15:19:53 his additions aren't bad enough for me to revert them myself. 15:20:14 (_this_ time.) 15:24:00 Gregor: you seem to be confusing this channel with ZenMud tdnh 15:24:38 (i guess that no longer exists.) 15:33:00 -!- oerjan has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive pizza testing, use #esoteric-blah. 15:33:31 this seemed like a good time to complete the cycle 15:45:45 -!- otterbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:47:44 * oerjan tries rotating his laptop to read today 15:47:44 -!- otherbot has joined. 15:47:55 * oerjan tries rotating his laptop to read today's girl genius. it's still awkward. 15:51:53 * oerjan saves it so it can open it in another program 16:02:18 apparently the standard image viewer in windows is more annoying to view this in than MS paint. 16:02:58 (it hides parts with menus etc.) 16:02:58 oh, "Girl Genius" 16:03:18 ... what part was confusing you? :P 16:03:54 hm, no part ? 16:03:59 good, good 16:06:21 ok 16:06:32 ski: I see 16:12:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:12:39 hi, ais523 16:12:53 hi 16:12:59 ais523: this is an interesting esolang you submitted, I'll have to think more about it 16:13:18 so will I 16:13:24 I'd like to write a compiler into it at some point, I think 16:13:33 maybe from PMMN or from some sort of asm 16:13:47 (I already wrote a program to bruteforce command separators) 16:14:25 The tokenizer rules look like there must be a good solution for a writer algorithm, possibly randomized, but I couldn't prove that yet. I'll try to prove it later. 16:15:02 -!- Bowserinator has changed nick to Joseph_Stalin. 16:15:36 I created a stub entry on the esowiki, but since I don't really understand how the language works at all currently, I didn't write a description. 16:16:05 -!- Joseph_Stalin has changed nick to Bowserinator. 16:22:44 <\oren\> idea: MatrixLang, a programming language that only uses numbers and halfwidth katakana 16:23:11 normally syntax is a fairly irrelevant part of a language 16:23:23 Incident seems to be an exception, and the reason is that it makes things difficult that are normally trivial 16:23:27 <\oren\> and maybe propagates downward instead of rightward 16:24:03 <\oren\> idea is that "tracing" the code would look at least somewhat like the matrix code stuff 16:24:14 ais523: no, even in Incident it seems like the syntax and the semantics are quite separate 16:25:01 I don't think they're very much tied together 16:25:18 sure, there's some ties, like how the syntax guarantees that there's exactly three of each token 16:25:46 but still, it looks like for interpreting the language or for producing programs, you have to solve the problem of the tokenizing/detokenizing and the problem of the semantics separately 16:25:57 you could replace one part and still recognize the other part 16:26:10 -!- otherbot has changed nick to otterbot. 16:26:23 in this respect it doesn't differ much from a lot of languages that have separate token syntax from semantics 16:30:05 yes, they're not really tied to each other (although the semantics were inspired by the syntax, and to some extent vice versa) 16:30:09 but the syntax is interesting in its own right 16:32:25 right, that's why I'll try to solve the syntax separately 16:32:54 also because I have the impression you already solve the semantics mostly, though that shouldn't really stop me 16:33:12 there are some connections between the syntax and the semantics 16:33:22 e.g. sometimes you have to add extra "goto statements" to get things in the right order 16:33:56 but a goto isn't 100% reliable because of the trivial infinite loop detector, it can break a loop at your goto, even if without the goto it'd have broken the loop somewhere else 16:35:48 "sometimes you have to add extra "goto statements" to get things in the right order" => um, wait, do you mean add a goto so that the three instances of an instruction are in the right order (which is not part of the tokenizing syntax the way I split it), or add goto so you can write down the token sequence (which I don't think should happen, unless you want to add like specific comments or polyglot stuff) 16:36:03 \ right order (which is not part of the tokenizing syntax the way I split it), or add goto so you can write down the token sequence (which I don't think should happen, unless you want to add like specific comments or polyglot stuff) 16:37:22 b_jonas: to get the three incidences into the right order 16:37:59 the fact that the first, second, and third incidences of a command do different things is more a syntax thing than a semantics thing IMO, although I can certainly see it as semantics 16:39:29 ais523: ok, the part I split and want to solve is the tokenizer syntax, which is where you want to go between a list of instructions (such that every instruction appears exactly three times) and the source code. 16:39:58 yes, it's not really syntax vs semantics, but more like lexer vs (parser and semantics) 16:40:27 I'm splitting only the lexer 16:41:02 I think you can split that way, because the order of the three instructions is present in the list of instructions 16:41:46 (and by the way, the anchor command is also in the list of instructions) 16:41:52 actually that's a good way to think about it 16:41:59 the problem of the lexer and the problem of the parser are different 16:42:47 sure. but many languages work like that, only in some languages some of the parts are very simple so there's nothing to solve. 16:44:21 yes, the difference here is not that you need to worry about how the program lexes (that's common, and particularly relevant in golfing), it's that "unlexing" a program is much harder than it normally is 16:44:30 the problem's existence isn't unusual, its difficulty is 16:45:09 for normal non-eso languages, you could in theory make both the lexer and the recursive parser easy, but people don't do that because they want the code to be shorter or look like some other code. 16:46:02 so even in onn-eso languages sometimes there are some difficulties in the syntax, like strange ambiguities that can bite programmers (running into some form of the statement vs declaration ambiguity is a rite of passage for C++ programmers) 16:47:02 perl and ruby has uglier lexer ambiguities too, as well as parser ambiguities 16:47:18 and often the two interact in ugly ways (they do interact a little bit in C++ too, but not much) 16:48:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 17:12:27 -!- HackEgo has joined. 17:12:31 @tell oerjan I don't know hth 17:12:31 Consider it noted. 17:17:29 -!- otterbot has quit (Excess Flood). 17:18:43 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 17:18:58 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:34:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:47:30 -!- otherbot has joined. 18:06:14 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:06:23 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:07:26 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( What are proof ordinals? Are there setups [which are whatever-proof-ordinals-describe] with finite proof ordinals? ) 18:08:53 it's the smallest ordinal that the proof system can't describe 18:24:48 Phantom_Hoover: Ah? 18:25:34 In classical english (possibly still UK English), were the words "check" and "cheque" different with "cheque" merged, or were they both "cheque" and they both became "check"? 18:25:39 I'm guessing the former 18:26:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:27:31 hppavilion[1], in UK English, check and cheque are different words 18:27:38 Taneb: Figured 18:27:56 But I would not be surprised if they came from the same root 18:28:05 With cheque being a later borrowing from French 18:29:33 -!- hppavilion[0] has joined. 18:31:57 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:37:00 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 18:37:10 -!- hppavilion[0] has changed nick to hppavilion[1]. 18:38:41 ski: Last slide of which? 18:40:18 -!- augur has joined. 18:43:02 -!- xkapastel has joined. 18:45:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:56:06 -!- augur has joined. 19:01:43 -!- wlp1s1 has quit (Quit: jeffl35 has quit (Quit: jeffl35 has quit (Quit: jeffl35 has quit (Quit: jeffl35 has quit ...). 19:02:35 -!- iczero has joined. 19:14:36 -!- iczero has changed nick to wlp1s1. 19:23:18 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:26:37 -!- MDude has joined. 19:30:33 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:35:33 -!- sewilton has joined. 19:36:22 https://blog.google/products/translate/found-translation-more-accurate-fluent-sentences-google-translate/ 19:36:26 Today we’re putting Neural Machine Translation into action with a total of eight language pairs to and from English and French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Turkish. These represent the native languages of around one-third of the world's population, covering more than 35% of all Google Translate queries! 19:36:38 35% is lower than i thought 19:40:13 I would speculate a lot of the use of Google Translate is English -> your less common language 19:40:20 smaller european countries, etc. 19:43:35 -!- Sprocklem has joined. 20:01:21 -!- AnotherTest_ has joined. 20:01:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:01:42 -!- AnotherTest_ has changed nick to AnotherTest. 20:53:07 -!- olsner has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:53:27 -!- olsner has joined. 20:53:49 -!- The_Prospector|2 has joined. 20:54:03 -!- tromp__ has joined. 20:56:18 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:56:23 -!- The_Prospector has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:11:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:23:22 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 21:29:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:40:14 <\oren\> Dwayne Johnson is plotting a run for president 21:41:40 I'd prefer Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho run. 21:47:15 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:01:55 -!- farrioth has joined. 22:03:50 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:07:20 `ftoc 80 22:07:20 80.00°F = 26.67°C 22:19:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:25:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:29:21 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:29:57 <\oren\> `ktoc 0 22:29:58 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ktoc: not found 22:30:02 <\oren\> boo 22:30:54 -!- atehwa has joined. 22:33:28 <\oren\> `mitokm 20 22:33:29 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mitokm: not found 22:33:53 `` units 0tempK tempC 22:33:55 ​-273.15 22:35:16 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:35:38 <\oren\> wat 22:36:11 <\oren\> why is there a reversed I there? 22:36:19 It's a tab. 22:36:22 it's a ta... 22:36:30 <\oren\> why is there a tab? 22:36:44 Because untis outputs one. 22:36:51 <\oren\> or, alternatively, why isn't it displayed as a tab? 22:37:01 -!- atehwa has joined. 22:37:04 because irssi has different ideas 22:37:15 <\oren\> is tab verboten by irc somehow 22:37:21 (also, variable nickname widths mean that tabs have only limited use) 22:38:30 well, imagine someone just putting 450 tab characters in a message... that would be almost enough to clear a 80x24 screen. 22:38:54 but I'm guessing... no clue what reason the irssi authors had. 22:38:59 <\oren\> good point 22:41:54 should i go to a local haskell user group? 22:42:15 Yes. 22:43:32 <\oren\> I think I will modify tcc to add the features I want 22:44:55 \oren\: and of course there's https://github.com/shabble/irssi-scripts/blob/master/tab_stop/tab_stop.pl 22:48:41 <\oren\> imagine an extended C with hundreds of operators at over 50 precedence levels 22:49:36 \oren\: make sure to add built-in min and max operators among the hundred! 22:49:37 <\oren\> many standard functions replaced with crazy expletives like $%+! 22:50:00 (and also to keep the original operators of C) 22:50:13 <\oren\> of course 22:52:17 <\oren\> >: will be the min operator, <: the max 22:52:55 <\oren\> e.g. a >:= b means, set a to b if b is smaller than a 22:52:56 \oren\: I don't think that works. <: is already used, and >: can conflict with existing combination of tokens 22:53:09 <\oren\> huh? 22:53:13 <\oren\> <: is used? 22:53:16 \oren\: it's not so easy to find nice looking combinations of punctuation that won't break existing code 22:53:24 <\oren\> for what? 22:53:54 <\oren\> oh, digraphs 22:54:36 <\oren\> how about <| 22:55:37 I'm not sure. I think <| is more or less safe, but might conflict with that possible future C++ language extension where | is a prefix operator like * and & 22:56:01 <\oren\> so long as it doesn't conflict with C 22:56:21 it probably doesn't conflict with C 22:56:59 I'm a C++ person really, I don't like C++ extensions that trample on C features, and C extensions that trample on C++ features 22:57:49 the C committee is awful 22:57:58 there are a few cases where the C and the C++ feature appeared roughly in the same time and conflict, and that was back in ancient times before fast communications on the internet, so you can't really fault either side: these include the double uses of clog and remove in the library. 22:58:15 but there are a few cases when clearly one side is at fault for doing something that conflicts with the other side 22:58:59 and usually the C++ committee picked the better thing 22:59:04 <\oren\> also, ~| and ~& as binary nor and nand 22:59:53 <\oren\> !&& and !|| as logical nor and nand 23:00:18 <\oren\> not to be confused with !!| or |!| 23:00:28 in many cases, I don't like how the C++ committee won't take the good features from C, or take them very late. this is about C complexes the most importantly. complex numbers really should be a built-in language feature, not a library thing. 23:00:40 why? 23:02:22 one case where I definitely fault the C++ committee is the naming of the identifiers in the header. they took the design of atomic variables from C, which is a good thing, but they assigned them identifiers that conflict with the C use, which sucks, because now you can't easily use those identifiers in C headers that may be included from C 23:02:22 ++ 23:02:26 <\oren\> What I really need is a tool to figure out what combinations remain undefined in the lexer table 23:03:25 \oren\: that's not so simple, because there are combinations that are impossible because of the grammar 23:03:35 why not quaternions or hyperreals or all kinds of binarys trees and fibonacci heaps for built-in features? 23:04:05 not many, mind you, but a few 23:04:12 <\oren\> myname: I think strings should eb built in 23:04:30 myname: complexes can be optimized in useful ways if the compiler knows about them 23:04:49 wob_jonas: iirc there was work underway to make the atomics compatible? 23:04:50 so can he with a library 23:04:54 wob_jonas: that's true of libraries too 23:05:45 and the behavior of complexes can depend on those floating point compilation option switch thingies, which further makes it easier to implement it as optimized builtins than as library stuff 23:05:57 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:06:12 wob_jonas: again, no reason a library can't do that 23:06:15 of course, you could still have complexes as a library feature, since even then the library could use compiler-specific knowledge and intrinsics 23:06:21 I dunno 23:06:26 I don't really know of good reasons 23:06:28 the standard only requires that the interface exposed be that of a library 23:06:32 i would rather have the compiler asking the öibrary on optimization methods than moving random stuff into the core 23:06:37 I just feel like complexes would be nicer as built-in 23:06:41 nothing requires the stdlib to actually be written as source 23:06:46 I admit my reasons for it aren't sound 23:06:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:07:01 IIRC clang has a number of optimizations for std types 23:07:02 complexes aren't random stuff! 23:07:14 sure they are 23:07:24 why not move io into primitives, since they depend on syscalls? 23:07:25 alercah: sure, and gcc has library stuff too that essentially just calls a built-in 23:07:31 or strings, since they're so important 23:07:38 alercah: gcc does know about some io primitives 23:07:43 not many, but some 23:07:59 wob_jonas: right, many standard libraries refer back to compiler intrinsics 23:08:04 but they don't even need to do that 23:08:34 there is no reason, from a standard perspective, that the standard types themselves couldn't be built-in 23:08:47 as for strings, obviously the compiler knows a lot about some of the loops that are used for strings a lot, and all forms of memcpy and memmove, both library calls and various loops and expanded form. copying comes up so much that the compiler must optimize it well. 23:09:07 alercah: sure, technically 23:09:25 but declaring them in the library makes the library implementation more readable to humans 23:09:30 sure 23:09:31 so in non-eso compilers it makes sense 23:09:43 which seems like an argument in favour of libraries in general and against moving things to core :) 23:10:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:11:03 also apparently some developers are very fond of these crazy ides that try to parse code as you type and give you all sorts of intrusive completion tips and error messages and red squiggle underlines and lightbulbs in the middle of each word you type, 23:11:17 so having each identifier declared in library headers would help those ides 23:11:17 they can be very useful 23:11:21 also very annoying 23:11:30 they could be very useful if used sanely 23:11:32 no that wouldn't help at all 23:11:36 I don't use that kind of things though 23:11:38 not the way SOME of my coworkers use them 23:11:41 such editors need compiler support for C++ 23:11:45 oh hi, zzo38 23:12:00 (or else they need to reimplement a *significant* part of the C++ semantic analysis 23:12:04 ) 23:12:16 zzo38: I have a hypothetical M:tG templating question for you 23:12:35 alercah: not reimplement as such, just use part of an existing implementation 23:12:59 wob_jonas: but if you're using the compiler to do that analysis 23:13:09 then it would know the standard types 23:13:26 the only time it wouldn't is if you were using a separate compiler for your IDE and for your compilation 23:13:30 which is a bad idea for many reasons 23:13:52 and in any case wouldn't work with the same stdlib 23:13:54 zzo38: Instead of that crazy complicated rule 305.7 for the Spreading Seas ability, shouldn't they have made a rule that makes that effect an ordinary copy effect that copies from the Island card? 23:13:59 I know it's not the same when it interacts with some more tricky effects, but it wouldn't be that much of a change, and it would simplify the rules a lot. 23:14:07 I wonder what your idea is about that alternate rule. 23:14:27 alercah: I guess 23:16:59 I do think rule 305.7 is certainly a bit klugy. A copy effect that copies from the Island card it seems won't work though 23:17:31 why not? 23:17:43 However, there does not seem a better way than the current rule 305.7 without making the card text too complicated 23:18:08 wob_jonas: There is not anything for it to copy. 23:20:13 I don't think that's a problem. If you don't want to imagine it as a copy effect, then imagine it as some similar effect that overwrites all the copyable values and base characteristics of the card, like those rules about face down permanents being 2/2 creatures with no other characteristics, or those about which part of split/flip/double-sided obj 23:20:13 ects are read in certain cases. 23:21:00 The point is, the effect should overwrite all the characteristics of the card, and all at the same layer, leaving nothing of the original at that point, rather than being a hodge-podge of effects that apply in various layers and on various parts of the characteristics inconsistently. 23:21:46 It already tries to act on the abilities of the card at such an early point, to remove only certain abilities that were printed on it. 23:25:35 Mind you, I do think it could be a real copy effect. 23:26:15 There are already effects that turn a permanent to a copy of an exiled card; and there are effects that examine the characteristics of a card outside the game, and there are rules for what those characteristics are; 23:27:24 so you only need a little patch to allow the rules to examine pristine copies of some Island outside the game that the players don't even own, like some particular Island card exhibited in the gatherer or something. 23:28:09 O, yes it could do that; the text of a default Island is simple: its name is Island, its type is land, its subtype is Island, and its other text is blank. 23:28:45 (O, and its supertype is basic.) 23:29:34 -!- Zarutian has joined. 23:29:37 You'd need this for all five plain basic lands, not only Island, but still 23:29:55 Yes, although that is still simple; only its names and subtypes differ. 23:30:01 Aren't there 11 basic lands? 23:30:15 shachaf: Yes, but only five are the "conventional basic lands". 23:30:15 the comp rules basically already know about those five cards: it mentions them explicitly for limited deck construction rules 23:30:29 it doesn't specifically list their oracle values, but so what 23:30:35 the oracle is needed for the rules anyway 23:31:09 ("Conventional" is the term I made up myself for these five basic lands, since there does not seem to be another word for them.) 23:31:22 the basic basic lands 23:31:41 still, if a literal copy effect is inconvenient for some reason, you could use some other phrasing that acts at that low layer, like the ones used for morph objects etc 23:31:43 wob_jonas: As far as I am concerned they should be separate since not all cards are necessarily legal in all formats, and some people may play unofficial formats with custom cards. 23:32:52 -!- farrioth has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:33:17 Also, it seems that for some reason they don't do static copy effects; Volrath's Shapeshifter used to be but they changed it into a static text-changing effect. 23:34:29 zzo38: oh indeed, they changed the rules for Primal Clay too, and that's for the good 23:34:51 but they still have those effects for morph, split cards, flip cards, and double-faced cards 23:34:55 (and meld cards of course) 23:35:39 wob_jonas: Those are the initial text of the object due to the object's status. 23:35:51 (And copies can also be modified by the copy's status.) 23:36:00 yes, and they are templates for when you copy from those objects 23:37:03 and mind you, those rules are quite tricky, because some of them act differently on the stack, on tb, and elsewhere (plus there's special rules for cmc and color-identity but that probably doesn't matter) 23:37:19 I don't really understand how all the zone rules work 23:37:21 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Reboot). 23:37:25 So, I would think, the status of an object affects which of an object's initial texts applies to it. 23:37:42 Only permanents have status though, although any object can be face-down. 23:39:29 However, regardless of whether it worked as a copy effect or how it does now (as a type-changing effect), I still think perhaps an improvement could be made: saying it becomes a "normal Island" shall remove its rules text. 23:39:40 yes... well, technically I think only objects otb, in exile, and on stack can be face up or face down; objects in gy are always revealed and objects in hand or library or sideboard are always hidden, and hidden means they don't have properties, except momentarily when they're revealed 23:40:31 Actually, I think not quite; a card can be temporarily face-down while in a player's hand, and it lacks characteristics at that time. See rule 120.8. 23:40:52 zzo38: I don't know what the templating should be. I think they should just have been printed with reminder text so you don't forget that rule: that's viable because most such cards have short enough text box that the reminder text usually fits. 23:41:34 I think less klugy rules make more sense, and then just adding the word "normal" to mean what the rules currently mean. 23:41:42 oh... right. I'm not sure if that counts as face down, or just hidden from even the player, but probably doesn't matter 23:42:10 Also, objects in the command zone can be face down. 23:42:44 heck, Sea's Claim should be printed without the reminder text for "enchant" and then you can fit two more lines of whatever templating or reminder you want 23:42:53 or even three if you reduce the size of text 23:43:09 oh yes... you're right, I forgot about the command zone 23:43:16 -!- FreeFull has joined. 23:43:28 conspiracies and planes and schemes can be face up or face down 23:43:38 But it does say "while face down, it's considered to have no characteristics"; therefore http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.7 (the rule was not numbered 120.8 at that time, although the rule still work in the same way) 23:43:55 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:44:23 Spreading Seas have a bit more rules text, but still you could fit something on it 23:44:57 I think they should normally to omit the reminder text it is not needed 23:45:00 so you say "is a normal island"... let me think 23:45:18 (unless the text is especially confusing, in which case it can help. But usually the text is not confusing if you know the rules) 23:45:42 does "Enchanted land is a normal island." fit in one line with the largest font size used? I think it just barely fits. 23:46:30 On both of those two cards you mentioned it seems like it might fit 23:47:01 (Although, you can change it to Mountain if you want to for this test, since "Mountain" is a longer word than "Island".) 23:47:12 zzo38: how would you template cards like Tideshaper Mystic then? 23:47:47 "... becomes a normal land of the basic land type of ..." 23:47:51 or Elsewhere Flask 23:48:24 Perhaps "... becomes normal and that type ..." 23:48:50 could work 23:50:15 test 23:56:45 -!- yorick_ has changed nick to yorick. 23:57:47 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).