< 1480809620 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove : on an out-of-order pipeline, the problem with multiple result instructions is that they really take 2 slots on the pipeline < 1480809664 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you have 1 slot instructions and 2 slot instructions and that complexifies the scheduler < 1480809684 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiv is slower than the rest of the pipeline anyway < 1480809713 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most instructions are 1 slot which means you're basically adding some extra stalling stuff for no good reason really < 1480809740 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove : that's also a thing... you want to have slow instructions have as few side effects as possible < 1480809776 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why zero division exceptions are bad actually < 1480809798 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :dividing by 0 is fast < 1480809833 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but the problem is that it basically turns into a conditional jump < 1480809855 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :so don't divide by 0? < 1480809864 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a cpu design problem < 1480809889 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the alternative? idiv should have like 4 operands? < 1480809911 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :every conditional instruction needs to be tracked by the retirement system < 1480809920 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that it has to be able to rollback everything < 1480809942 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiv should be 32/32->32 < 1480809948 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and strictly arithmetic < 1480809967 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :change no flags, no exceptions, no extra remainder register < 1480809997 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and negative results should round the same as positive results - down < 1480810008 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the compiler can optimize /8 as >>3 < 1480810011 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that means to throw away information < 1480810026 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :irl 99.9% of divisions are C++'s / operator < 1480810032 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't compute division without computing both results < 1480810037 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which only gives you the 32 bit result and nothing else < 1480810071 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to use some non portable intrinsic if you want the full result, and that only compiles on x86 < 1480810077 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that nobody ever uses it < 1480810085 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :compilers use it < 1480810094 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people use / < 1480810095 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :also div(3) is a thing < 1480810107 0 :ybden!ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wow < 1480810110 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ is 32x32->32 < 1480810125 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 64x64->64 on 64-bit when using 64-bit types < 1480810156 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you really need more of the result 99.9% of the time you'll just switch to floating point anyways < 1480810215 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same thing as the higher bits of the result of * on 32bit cpus < 1480810240 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory 32*32 division gives you 64 bits of result so you might want to keep those higher bits < 1480810247 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1480810252 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1480810259 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory 32*32 multiplication gives you 64 bits of result so you might want to keep those higher bits < 1480810260 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather < 1480810286 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice 99% of the actual multiplications in actual programs are 32*32->32 simply because that's how C++'s * operator works < 1480810316 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :again you're throwing away information < 1480810318 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you end up with the problem of having an opcode that doesn't work in the way people actually use it < 1480810338 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove : real programs throw away information < 1480810379 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for programs it's better to have less information but have multiply results come in 1 cycle earlier because it's easier to schedule and implement fast on silicon < 1480810386 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-44-58.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had different idea, you have partially reprogrammable microcodes, and part of the C runtime is in the microcodes < 1480810423 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : how does that make your cpu faster < 1480810501 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-44-58.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The microcode is reprogrammed to make whatever operation is the mainly one faster. < 1480810515 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-44-58.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As well as smaller code, if applicable) < 1480810515 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove : like, what's good for programs is something like the GBA's multiply... it throws away bits and is only 32*32->32... BUT it comes out in 1 cycle if the multiplicator is 8bit (and games used this a ton) < 1480810542 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-44-58.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have to access the external RAM during part of the operation therefore it can do two thing at once and be faster. < 1480810596 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : irl on x86, memcpy() has been faster in some tight software loop rather than REP STOSB for years < 1480810633 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( and more correct too ) < 1480810639 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's one C++ library function that cpu designers know that people use and needs to be fast and could specifically optimize for < 1480810653 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: are you mixing up memset and memcpy or stosb and movsb? < 1480810658 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1480810663 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1480810684 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1480810692 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-44-58.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know of that things in memcpy() for in x86 < 1480810702 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the general problem is < 1480810751 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to run your microcoded block copy, the cpu has to make sure it doesn't conflict with any other operations in the pipeline < 1480810761 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that it's slow to start and to stop < 1480810784 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make sure the cpu doesn't reorder the micro-ops in a wrong way or something like that < 1480810801 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-44-58.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is done in my design by the blitter, so it does not block microcode (although it does block memory access, meaning you still have to wait before the next non-microcode instruction is executed) < 1480810833 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : what sort of microcode operations do you have that don't access memory? :D < 1480810873 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, even operations like function call and return have memory accesses in them < 1480810873 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-44-58.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of them mandatorily do access memory actually, but you can just suppress that part while the blitter is in operation. < 1480810882 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: and what's the point of making rep movsb fast if the language runtimes don't use it anymore anyway... < 1480810903 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(circular reasoning is fun) < 1480810917 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e : who knows, maybe they've put reb movsb back in by now < 1480810935 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03JGeo 5* 10New user account < 1480810948 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's particularly compact in the instruction cache < 1480810949 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ask intel, who made it really fast again in ivy bridge < 1480810966 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it was haswell < 1480810986 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure icache compactness on that kind of operation is really worth it < 1480811097 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :also full euclidean division is used very often: when calculating rectangular array indices, or in high-precision arithmetic < 1480811139 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are the uses that need to be optimal, not C programmers' bizarre * and / operators < 1480811161 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what field? :D < 1480811229 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in sound processing (my field), if you're running into precision limits of / you switch to floating point < 1480811271 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's true that if you're doing bignum processing then that's a different thing and then it might be good < 1480811340 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a whole bunch of cpu design decisions that make no sense in general purpose code (flags registers, add-with-carry, 32*32->64 multiply, etc) suddenly make total sense if you're doing bignum, yes < 1480811343 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :even remainder-less division gives the quotient to full precision, so there is no precision limit involved < 1480811358 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by precision? < 1480811380 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-44-58.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other thing is if writing assembly-language programming, but that is only if you target a specific computer < 1480811387 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sound never needs more than 64 bit programming < 1480811406 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bit double precision float is really good enough for the ear < 1480811419 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 99% of the time 32 bit float is good enough as well, for audio < 1480811450 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :3d gfx in video games is another different field so I expect it breaks some other way :3 < 1480811454 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :most CPUs don't provide euclidean division for more than 64-bit integers, so nothing is wasted there (except having a remainder in signal processing would be odd) < 1480811505 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :irl if I need a remainder 99% of the time I can change scaling factors and then just do var &= 0xfff < 1480811535 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in a way, my code has a ton of remainders, but they're all implemented with bitmasks < 1480811572 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-44-58.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One program I wrote that is doing sound processing is XISYNTH, which internally works with 64-bit floating-points but it must downgrade the signal to 16-bit integers when output. < 1480811574 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that work when the divisor is not a power of 2? < 1480811585 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet : of course not :D < 1480811594 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you weren't doing any divisions at all < 1480811614 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-44-58.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But there is also one option you can tell it to downgrade to 8-bits instead, but by default it downgrades to 16-bits) < 1480811629 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very rare to have variable quotients in signal processing < 1480811644 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 99% of the time if / shows up, turn it into * < 1480811710 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one case I can think of is ramping a value over a block linearly... < 1480811730 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then stepsize = (endvalue - startvalue) / blocksize < 1480811787 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that _one_ particular case, /'s way of rounding upwards in the negatives instead of downwards as usual sorta helps you-ish < 1480811870 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have to ramp more than 1 parameter, then it's better to do 1/blocksize once and then use * for each ramped value < 1480812975 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is JOIN :#esoteric < 1480815475 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric : .,+*=A# < 1480815479 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :are these characters sorted by brightness? < 1480815522 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1480815811 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric := is less bright than * on my font < 1480815830 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might want to look into % $ @ & < 1480815837 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :: < 1480815845 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :- < 1480815845 0 :otherbot!~yaybot@unaffiliated/jeffl35/bot/jeffbot PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehlo mad < 1480815864 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...hi < 1480815872 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :- < 1480815872 0 :otherbot!~yaybot@unaffiliated/jeffl35/bot/jeffbot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to kill init! < 1480815877 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1480815961 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric : .oO@ < 1480815971 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll just use these < 1480816404 0 :iovoid!iovoid@unaffiliated/iovoid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1480816705 0 :iovoid!iovoid@unaffiliated/iovoid JOIN :#esoteric < 1480816714 0 :moonheart08!~luxon@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf JOIN :#esoteric < 1480817123 0 :trout!~root@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: found 1 in /dev/zero < 1480817327 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: This is a meaningless question without font choice < 1480817338 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAYK, my font is negative < 1480817480 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a brilliant idea < 1480817488 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe) < 1480817519 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: it is also a question on transliteration-orthography (or how it is for one is using something like freemasons 'cipher') < 1480817562 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or eljian script which is very similiar) < 1480817917 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1480817986 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1480818070 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the wiki down? < 1480818099 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks down to me. < 1480818149 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, and I have a new language I want to document < 1480818168 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the time being, you can get an interpreter with embedded spec from http://nethack4.org/esolangs/7/7.pl < 1480818207 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's being served as application/x-perl :-( < 1480818375 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me that opens it in a text editor, with syntax highlighting < 1480818388 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that the spec is in perldoc anyway, a browser wouldn't be ideal for viewing it < 1480818499 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: lets hear that brilliant idea or least a rough sketch of it < 1480818516 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zarutian: Basically, make a font with non-english characters for the alphabet < 1480818525 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zarutian: Completely unrelated to english < 1480818542 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: like the fúþark runic charset? < 1480818546 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe? < 1480818568 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zarutian: Take advantage of brain's neuroplasticity to read in it. Never have anyone read over my shoulder again. < 1480818570 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Profit. < 1480818673 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's in charge of the wiki? fizzie? we should probably ping whoever it is to let them know the wiki's down < 1480818677 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: I have used an variant of 'younger swedish fúþark' to write semi private notes. That is, notes that I do not intend to be glanced at and absorbed by people seeing my writing. < 1480818677 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, look like a god < 1480818770 0 :moonheart08!~luxon@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1480819135 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1480819667 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wiki down :( < 1480819687 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :who keeps the wiki up these days? < 1480819690 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i no one < 1480819708 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie may < 1480819732 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only if the server is up < 1480819793 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages-maud < 1480819793 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have any messages < 1480819845 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote @messages < 1480819852 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? @messages-loud < 1480819863 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1480819909 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :O NOES < 1480819915 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess the server isn't up, then. < 1480819925 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar CYYZ < 1480819925 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :CYYZ 040200Z 28008KT 15SM BKN049 03/M01 A3020 RMK SC7 SLP235 < 1480819976 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@@ @@ (@where weather) KOAK KSFO KSJC < 1480819979 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : KOAK 040153Z 34004KT 10SM FEW200 13/09 A3018 RMK AO2 SLP220 T01280094 \ KSFO 040156Z 29010KT 9SM FEW015 FEW200 13/10 A3018 RMK AO2 SLP220 T01280100 $ \ KSJC 040153Z 27003KT 10SM FEW050 SCT100 13/04 < 1480819979 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :A3018 RMK AO2 SLP218 T01280044 < 1480820224 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1480820406 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a way to turn the knapsack problem into a turing machine? (by introducing something like an infinite number of items or something) < 1480821271 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1480821323 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1480821331 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : midnight spaghetti, anyone? <-- already had some at approx. 22:30 hth < 1480821350 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's no midnight spaghetti >:O < 1480821356 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1480821506 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan can eat midnight spaghetti at whatever hour he pleases hth < 1480821526 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :tdh thx < 1480821613 0 :ybden!ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :That didn't help? < 1480821631 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50444&oldid=50440 5* 03Ais523 5* (+8) 10/* Non-alphabetic */ +[[7]] < 1480821642 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wiki's back up I think < 1480821700 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1480821743 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :we seem to have two new users who couldn't get past the filter < 1480821790 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one tried a ridiculous amount of times... < 1480821877 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were they doing wrong? < 1480821917 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kept adding a http link < 1480821923 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*an < 1480821966 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other one didn't get to the introduction at all < 1480821998 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i'm not sure the edit he tried to make wasn't a copyvio < 1480822119 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is too lazy to download that mediafire one < 1480822289 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: a declarative, additive version of fractran? < 1480822315 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :making it declarative shouldn't be too hard, but making it additive could be < 1480822331 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :see Bag hth < 1480822358 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that's still multiplicative in notation < 1480822403 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm reminded of sylver coinage < 1480822440 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not TC afaik < 1480822462 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(being terminating for a start) < 1480822521 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the first few moves are unbounded < 1480822860 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(compare http://mathoverflow.net/q/122250, a chess position with game length ω) < 1480822905 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :has sylver coinage been proven to terminate? < 1480822957 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, is it known whether every game has finite optimal moves < 1480822963 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um it's proven that it terminates < 1480822969 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :each game < 1480822991 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless of what the players do < 1480823053 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe “terminate” was the wrong word < 1480823085 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean if perfect play is known? < 1480823117 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, could there be any position where the losing player can force the game to be arbitrarily long? < 1480823143 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1480823152 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :any player can always play 1 to win. < 1480823192 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it's misere < 1480823195 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he loses < 1480823259 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :some games with unbounded move choices (even where every game is finite) have been proven undecidable < 1480823263 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1480823283 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at wikipedia < 1480823352 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm the first player to name 2 or 3 would also lose < 1480823409 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's not been solved < 1480823444 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :expecting infinite chess to be found turing complete under the right conditions < 1480823481 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hutchings's Theorem states that any of the prime numbers 5, 7, 11, 13, …, wins as a first move, but very little is known about the subsequent winning moves: these are the only winning openings known. Complete winning strategies are known for answering the losing openings 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, and 12." < 1480823486 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :this game sounds pretty good < 1480823490 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though the transfinite thing is interesting < 1480823493 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad: I think it is, but all constructions so far require infinitely many pieces < 1480823505 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1480823514 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need some source of infinite information < 1480823521 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :using finitely many pieces is an open problem < 1480823533 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so either soem infinitely movable piece < 1480823543 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or infinitely many pieces yes < 1480823584 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's been proven that either of those are even necessary for undecidability < 1480823595 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1480823607 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :the board is infinite, so in principle short-moving pieces can move an unbounded distance < 1480823639 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you for the amount of information in your state to be always able to grow more < 1480823674 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :er... what you need, is that the amount of information in your state needs to be always able to grow more < 1480823679 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, they could move an unbounded distance away from each other, and it's plausible that this could store unbounded information < 1480823700 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1480823728 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need 2x unbounded counters + 1 state (bounded) for a minsky machine < 1480823732 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe this would not work in a directmate construction, because the pieces would no longer influence each other < 1480823786 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use sets of passed pawns though, as their moves are irreversible < 1480823877 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :given a board with one-ways, 'wire crossings' (ie superposed paths in 2d), and a mix of different infinitely repeated sections, you can get computation using the movement of 1 piece (by using the x and y position as your two unbounded minsky-machine counters, and using which path you're on as the state) < 1480824005 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for unbounded chess... < 1480824017 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need 2 unbounded movable pieces < 1480824032 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can be moved +1 or -1 an infinite number of times < 1480824065 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if they move back to position 0 they change state transitions < 1480824246 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, a “knapsack” problem over a word group (instead of an additive group) is undecidable again, because it is a post correspondence system < 1480824277 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1480824367 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could try and determine if a knapsack problem where each item value is a k-tuple of integers is decidable < 1480824375 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the standard knapsack problem is where k=1) < 1480824545 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :having a deterministic (order-independent) fractran UTM would show that a finite k-knapsack is curly-L-complete < 1480824570 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :k would be the number of prime factors in the fractran program < 1480824942 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50445 5* 03Ais523 5* (+10419) 10new language! < 1480824979 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50446&oldid=50252 5* 03Ais523 5* (+7) 10+[[7]] < 1480825033 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda wonder what infinichess would look like on a hyperbolic plane < 1480825105 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the right winger win the election tomorrow, maybe austria will demand south tyrol back < 1480825165 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is QUIT :Quit: Zarutian < 1480825468 0 :otherbot!~yaybot@unaffiliated/jeffl35/bot/jeffbot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1480825490 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1480826346 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not poland with that < 1480826489 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if the right wingers win in poland, they can insto space < 1480827011 0 :Kaynato!~Aedile@cpe-174-100-169-144.neo.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1480827538 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1480827545 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote < 1480827545 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :mnislaih says: When one of the Simons says that he is having trouble reading your code, you ought to listen! < 1480827551 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote < 1480827551 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :davidhasselh0f says: [on SPJ's "A Taste of Haskell" tutorial]: It's better than sex. < 1480827556 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote < 1480827556 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Failure02 says: in haskell you can have korean smilies as variables! like (^-^) < 1480827560 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1259) boily: some girl from germany just messaged me and turned out the freezer was set to some sort of esoteric natural language. < 1480827576 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :YAAAAY Hackego is back! < 1480827608 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1480827615 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :536) I mean, any organisation called the Scottish Defence League should be beating up English people, what other point would there be? < 1480828062 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-44-58.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One chess variant I have read about is all pieces also have the power of pawns (except for promotion) in addition to their normal powers. Double-step is possible from your second rank, in which case they can be captured by en-passan by any other pieces. In the default variant, rooks and queens cannot be captured by en-passan. < 1480828146 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-44-58.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can think of two other kinds of subvariants though. One is that rooks and queens can be captured by en-passan, but only if it moves two spaces forward from your second rank without capturing anything. The other possible way is that it is only allowed if it would otherwise be stalemate, and then only if the player who moved the rook/queen agrees to let you to capture it so that the game can continue. < 1480828615 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out that mate-in-n problems with finitely many pieces are decidable, because each of the n moves can be described in presburger arithmetic: https://arxiv.org/abs/1201.5597 < 1480828752 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-44-58.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To have an infinite number of pieces is only also with infinite size of board < 1480829358 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: Strip chess never ends in a stalemate. < 1480829520 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear that playing in some places might get you a Czech mate < 1480829760 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1480830267 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1480830574 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1480833479 0 :impomatic_!~digital_w@host81-136-106-55.range81-136.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1480834111 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1480834897 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: I assume that this is finitely many pieces, but an infinite board? otherwise it's obviously decidable by brute force < 1480834911 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :next question: we know it isn't above TC; is it below TC? < 1480835313 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :decidable implies below TC, usually? < 1480835371 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1480835380 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 7am and I haven't gone to bed yet < 1480835420 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is about to consider it < 1480835437 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time oerjan < 1480835437 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for oerjan is Sun Dec 4 08:10:37 2016 < 1480835445 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you want to have some midnight spaghetti < 1480835512 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently there's some massive pm-spamming advertising campaign going on on freenode right now < 1480835527 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it involve spaghetti by any chance? < 1480835927 0 :sam[0]!kyubiko@unaffiliated/kyubiko PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly it doesn't < 1480835943 0 :sam[0]!kyubiko@unaffiliated/kyubiko PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently "this irc" is being moved < 1480835948 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sam[0]: ...is your name a reference to mine? < 1480835958 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sam[0]: Yes, I heard < 1480835966 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stay out of the big channels and you won't get spammed < 1480835968 0 :sam[0]!kyubiko@unaffiliated/kyubiko PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: no < 1480835990 0 :sam[0]!kyubiko@unaffiliated/kyubiko PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just set usermode +R < 1480836014 0 :sam[0]!kyubiko@unaffiliated/kyubiko PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stops unregged nicks PMing you < 1480836026 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sam is an editor, not a model of laptop < 1480836026 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sam[0]: Well, yes, that too < 1480836035 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sam[0]: I heard < 1480836042 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sam[0]: But the [0] < 1480836045 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1480836049 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The [0] < 1480836061 0 :sam[0]!kyubiko@unaffiliated/kyubiko PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that's due to something from another channel < 1480836077 0 :sam[0]!kyubiko@unaffiliated/kyubiko PRIVMSG #esoteric :A disagreement about who the original sam was < 1480836219 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: well [1] isn't a laptop model as far as I know < 1480836252 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And is [0] an editor version? < 1480836259 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume < 1480836964 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1480837128 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1480837931 0 :mad!boulam@107.190.32.246 QUIT :Quit: Pics or it didn't happen < 1480838081 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time < 1480838084 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for shachaf is Sat Dec 3 23:54:41 2016 < 1480838088 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: presently cooking spaghetti < 1480838088 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need a cool nonsense name for a project < 1480838097 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks that's a great name < 1480838176 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: What's a great name? < 1480838181 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: Do I have somebody on block?? < 1480838193 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or was it what shachaf said? :P < 1480838196 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf ? < 1480838213 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :spaghetti is the name < 1480838236 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: I see der chaf's message before yours < 1480838252 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :at first i wanted to use presently-cooking-spaghetti but then it was too long to type < 1480838309 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: Go with something that treats "spaghet" as if it were a greek root < 1480838316 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: The same way we say "spaghettification" < 1480838327 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :who says that < 1480838419 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: ...scientists < 1480838427 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time < 1480838430 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for shachaf is Sun Dec 4 00:00:27 2016 < 1480838430 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spaghetti is ready. < 1480838436 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: Spaghettification is the actual, scientific term for how you get torn apart as you fall into a black hole < 1480838457 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: At some point, your legs move faster than your head (...assuming you fall feet first) and you're torn in half < 1480838459 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're trying not to ping me by saying "chaf's", it's not working. < 1480838480 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I knew it'd ping you, I just wanted to call you "der chaf" < 1480838481 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have /hilight on chaf\b < 1480838484 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: Then the same thing happens to each piece then < 1480838487 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1480838498 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until you're just a train of individual particles falling into a singularity < 1480838533 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does everything you say end up with me in particles falling apart < 1480838549 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[0]: pretty sure that hasn't been observed and therefore can't be called science hth < 1480838576 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://aaronkcollett.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/0055_08.gif < 1480838582 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Oh. < 1480838590 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: It's my master plan < 1480838634 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Wait, I'm confused < 1480838748 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://media.chick.com/tractimages67491/0055/0055_14.gif < 1480838752 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's science for you < 1480838821 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yeah, I get it < 1480838830 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION remember Jack Chick is dead and dances < 1480838853 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :chick tracts are so good < 1480838974 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-161-205.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh right, there was a celebrity death I approved of this year. < 1480839006 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hikhq < 1480839020 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How should we build, package, and deploy software? < 1480839042 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-161-205.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh gee, that's a hard question. < 1480839056 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-161-205.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't you give me an easier one, like "does P=NP?" < 1480839081 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one is pretty easy. < 1480839093 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :P≠NP < 1480839098 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just the proof is tricky. < 1480839106 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm not asking you for a proof. < 1480839121 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-161-205.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you say there exists a proof this IRC line is too small to contain? < 1480839138 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/distort < 1480839149 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ N=330 \ name = sys.argv[1] if len(sys.argv) > 1 else "/dev/stdin" \ with open(name, "r") as f: \ data = ' \\ '.join(f.read().splitlines()) \ for i in xrange(0, len(data), N): \ print data[i:i+N] < 1480839182 0 :hppavilion[0]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: P ⊃ NP obv. < 1480839182 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: What if `` piped the output through a program that automatically became a variant of `1 when the output was long enough? < 1480839197 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You can do a lot in 330 bytes. I wouldn't bet on it. < 1480839430 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: fiendish < 1480839459 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: which part < 1480839461 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-161-205.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I estimate there are approximately 330*2^8 possibilities. < 1480839481 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-161-205.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually less, but that's a decent lazy upper bound) < 1480839788 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Shouldn't that be 2^(8*330) < 1480840503 0 :hppavilion[0]!?@? NICK :hppavilion[1] < 1480840503 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE < 1480841466 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lern2math < 1480842631 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcxhsctgca53ue.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1480842878 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there were a 330-byte proof that P≠NP, I'd expect it to have been discovered by now < 1480842885 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps not, though < 1480842901 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the main results of my PhD thesis had a proof that was only about a paragraph long, it might be golfed into that length < 1480842911 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*golfable < 1480843407 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sufficiently well-written 330-character grant application ought to do the job < 1480843510 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :failing that, a 330-character invitation to attend your keynote where you will present the most important 23 problems of this century < 1480843536 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible that P=?NP is undecidable? (if it is, I'm pretty sure you can prove that you can't prove that it's undecidable) < 1480843581 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because doing so would prove that no algorithm for solving an NP-complete problem can provably run in polynomial time, and it's hard to see how an algorithm could run in polynomial time but unprovably so) < 1480843646 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : How should we build, package, and deploy software? ← via an international hub for software design and deployment < 1480843657 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(alternative answer: aimake, preferably the vaporware version that I haven't even really started yet) < 1480843682 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I initially understood that sentence as "I'm pretty sure you can prove that, if it is, you can't prove that it's undecidable" < 1480843706 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I think is a stronger statement. But you can't trust me after midnight spaghetti. < 1480843749 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What is aimake? < 1480843763 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, suppose that you try to brute-force a problem that turns out to always has a solution of size O(log n), but you can't prove it < 1480843765 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I should have looked it up. < 1480843766 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: a build system I've been working on for several years now < 1480843781 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of an example, though < 1480843783 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember now that you've talked about it. < 1480843796 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it contains a (weak) AI that figures out how to build much of your code; it can also generate installers, at least on Windows < 1480843815 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: This reminds me of a thing someone said once which I can't quite remember. < 1480843845 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was along the lines of, there's a problem which is undecidable, but decidable given an oracle for any undecidable problem. < 1480843889 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, a minimally undecidable problem? < 1480843903 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it known what the problem actually /is/, or merely proven that it exists? < 1480843911 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think it was known. < 1480843916 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be misstating it, though. < 1480843959 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll ask in the other channel. < 1480844023 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :partial example: a simplex algorithm with a sufficiently clever oracle for pivoting might always run in polynomial time, though it could be extremely hard to prove this < 1480844210 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think having to write a bit of metadata about my code is a build system problem. < 1480844224 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, a problem that I have with existing build systems. < 1480844239 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think having to change the makefiles whenever you shuffle things around in your source tree is really annoying < 1480844277 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and things like determining which directories installed system header files are in is a problem that most build systems push onto the end user (!) even though they can be solved more easily by a computer than by a human < 1480844306 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I certainly think a build system's description files should be high-level and declarative, not lists of commands like Makefiles. < 1480844340 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :the worst metadata that a makefile forces you to write is the build dependencies < 1480844358 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure that explicit dependencies are that bad. < 1480844370 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually, you don't even know what they are, so why are you expected to write them correctly? < 1480844425 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're using a library, you presumably know that you're using it. < 1480844478 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in aimake, you specify that you're using it (+ a symbol from the library to ensure that it finds the right one) < 1480844484 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't specify where it is, though < 1480844514 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you specify something without specifying where it is? < 1480844532 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can specify shachaf without knowing where it is < 1480844554 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Aha, I got a reference: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1110.1907.pdf < 1480844560 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by name, in this case < 1480844569 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was referring, though, to libraries and binaries (such as compilers) that depend on other files < 1480844598 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you're implicitly referring to freenode:shachaf or, freenode:#esoteric:shachaf < 1480844668 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :fortunately, shachaf is sufficiently unique in this context < 1480844688 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how aimake would deal with multiple versions of libraries, such as on a multiarch debian system < 1480844694 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. Like you can specify a file with a relative path. < 1480844708 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's enough information from context that you're still specifying where it is. < 1480844853 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: that already happens with ncurses and ncursesw; it seems to just pick one that causes the link to succeed < 1480844882 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, now I see what you mean. < 1480844907 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What are the actual limits of an IRC line length? < 1480844925 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavilion[1]: 510 characters including metadata < 1480844934 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sometimes a little hard to predict the length of the metadata though < 1480844944 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And how short can you reliably get metadata down to? < 1480844945 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I believe that debian amd64 allows you to have three libc's simultaneously: :amd64, :i386, and the -i386 variant that exists for backwards compatibility) < 1480844950 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :330 was conservative, if I remember correctly. < 1480844950 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so clients tend to wrap the lines early, and in general it's impossible to predict where you'll be cut off < 1480844988 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there are i686 variants as well (even for amd64‽) which brings the total to 5 < 1480845022 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, we'll stick with 330 < 1480845043 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's just assume any 330-8-bit-byte line can be used < 1480845044 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAIT! < 1480845044 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :330 is for distort, though. < 1480845060 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have to include lines of length <330; I think those are distinct < 1480845138 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"typedef char *char_p; char_p AIMAKE_EXPORT(function_returning_a_string)(void) /* exported */" < 1480845141 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks complicated. < 1480845165 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Are they distinct? < 1480845199 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on whether they can be uniquely padded < 1480845205 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially with trailing whitespace < 1480845215 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I've had to jump through several hoops to avoid having to write a custom preprocessor :-( < 1480845228 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is something I'd love to fix < 1480845230 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's annoying < 1480845241 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What character terminates an IRC line? < 1480845244 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it only \r\n? < 1480845244 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also the typedef's only needed in gcc; IIRC it works in clang even with the obvious char *) < 1480845249 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is it necessary? < 1480845255 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would, say, just a \r or just an \n still end it? < 1480845261 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a \n\r? < 1480845290 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's about shared libraries? < 1480845296 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not statically link everything? < 1480845319 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I might be confusing things. < 1480845411 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about getting aimake to generate shared libraries < 1480845430 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has this feature because NitroHack used it, and the original motivation for aimake was that NitroHack's build system was broken < 1480846592 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1480846725 0 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1480849657 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are all traditional programming languages (henceforth "borilangs", by analogy to "esolangs") analytic? < 1480849676 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does analytic mean in this case? < 1480849692 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: In terms of language typology < 1480849701 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_language < 1480849704 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah i know nothing about that < 1480849715 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :izalove: May I ask why you stopped being izabera at some point? < 1480849745 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk < 1480849773 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :most “traditional” programming languages are actually fairly esoteric < 1480849806 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :at any rate, there is perligata, which is about as inflective on the word level as languages go < 1480849874 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? perligata < 1480849891 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duck Duck Go can search the esowiki with !eso :D < 1480849904 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perligata? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1480849923 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Inflection is appalling < 1480849969 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm... just going to redo it < 1480849975 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Lingua-Romana-Perligata-0.50/lib/Lingua/Romana/Perligata.pm < 1480850264 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50447&oldid=50434 5* 03JGeo 5* (+242) 10/* Introductions */ < 1480850273 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wat < 1480850278 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why wasn't it < 1480850279 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1480850287 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. That's why < 1480850294 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had Strip Colors on for #esoteric < 1480850398 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50448&oldid=50447 5* 03JGeo 5* (-242) 10/* Introductions */ < 1480850421 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is pr(a | emptyset) a valid thing to calculate? < 1480850464 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thyname: Assuming you mean P(a|{}), yeah, but it'll always just be P(a) ips < 1480850498 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50449&oldid=50448 5* 03JGeo 5* (+204) 10/* Introductions */ < 1480850503 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? i'd argue it is 0 because A | {} can never happen < 1480850525 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50450&oldid=50449 5* 03JGeo 5* (+9) 10/* Introductions */ < 1480850534 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Isn't P(A|{}) the probability of A given that {} is true? < 1480850546 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: The probability that {} is true is... I think it's actually 1 < 1480850552 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a vacuous truth < 1480850576 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50451&oldid=50450 5* 03JGeo 5* (+46) 10/* Introductions */ < 1480850596 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50452&oldid=50451 5* 03JGeo 5* (-1) 10/* Introductions */ < 1480850616 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But since the happenedness of {} is irrelevant to the probability of A (and also, since {} always happens anyway, it's not important), it doesn't change anything < 1480850650 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Piet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50453&oldid=47000 5* 03JGeo 5* (+127) 10Added a link to a new Piet program. < 1480850779 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, because P(A | ∅) is defined as P(A ∩ ∅) / P(∅) < 1480850804 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what is P({})? < 1480850807 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it it < 1480850813 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's 1 i am right < 1480850822 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's 0 you cannot compute it < 1480850903 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(∅) is always zero < 1480850928 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not computable what P(a | {}) is? < 1480850948 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, a more interesting question is P(A | B) for a nonempty set B with probability measure 0 < 1480851003 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is this more interesting? < 1480851020 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, empty set is just an edge case of that i guess < 1480851024 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borel–Kolmogorov_paradox < 1480851083 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate probabilities < 1480851095 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even the word is just horible < 1480851417 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: I'd think P(∅) would be one < 1480851423 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: because vacuousity < 1480851446 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ∩ < 1480851470 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+2229 INTERSECTION] < 1480851498 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Güt < 1480851501 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Gut < 1480851669 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, your thinking would be… unlikely to be correct < 1480851685 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: cow.org/csi < 1480851689 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in fact, it is correct with probability P(∅).) < 1480851939 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1480853405 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you say Pr(omega in S) is the probability of a given omega that has to be in S or the probability that a given omega is in S? < 1480853844 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: P(a) = 2 < 1480854734 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1480855614 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1480857120 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: SAMURAI CHICKEN < 1480857707 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :does a samurai chicken lay samurai x? < 1480858182 0 :hppavilion[1]!~doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1480858900 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is JOIN :#esoteric < 1480863718 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is QUIT :Quit: Zarutian < 1480865243 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is JOIN :#esoteric < 1480865312 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1480865328 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is JOIN :#esoteric < 1480865905 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1480866028 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Outside in a lamp post there was a sticker with a photo of a cat, and the text: "If cats could talk to the cops, they wouldn't." And a logo of some organization with the word "anarchy" in the name. < 1480866094 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bcause all cats are bastards? < 1480866206 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. But this was the photo: https://twitter.com/mathieumatiu/status/649668969050308608 < 1480866916 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: noooo, all cats are beautiful < 1480866989 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i don't see any contradictions to what i said < 1480867006 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 1312 < 1480867015 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1480867028 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wc quotes < 1480867030 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ 1299 26146 156447 quotes < 1480867278 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1480867338 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 1299 < 1480867340 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1299) Minskily, Munskily / ais523 / hailing from Birmingham / is a sublime // master of intricate / esotericity / yet is confounded by / travel in time. < 1480869169 0 :Kaynato!~Aedile@cpe-174-100-169-144.neo.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1480872260 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Redstarcoder 5* 10New user account < 1480872773 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50454&oldid=50452 5* 03Redstarcoder 5* (+340) 10/* Introductions */ < 1480872819 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Fish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50455&oldid=47187 5* 03Redstarcoder 5* (-10) 10Tenatively removing "fish.go" as it doesn't look like it has ever compiled, and certainly not on a modern version of Go. Tenatively placed my own "go-fish" in the same area, which actually utilises the GOPATH and doesn't need anything arcane to run. < 1480872889 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Fish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50456&oldid=50455 5* 03Redstarcoder 5* (+0) 10/* Interpreters */ Changed ordering to put the fishlanguage.com interpreter higher up. < 1480874774 0 :Taneb!?@? NICK :nvd < 1480875054 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Fish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50457&oldid=50456 5* 03Redstarcoder 5* (+57) 10/* Interpreters */ Updated go-fish description to reflect recent changes < 1480877075 0 :Kaynato!~Aedile@cpe-174-100-169-144.neo.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1480878651 0 :Kaynato!~Aedile@casewireless03.CWRU.Edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1480879127 0 :Sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1480883472 0 :atrapado_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1480884061 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :good morning! < 1480884245 0 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heya. < 1480885358 0 :Bowserinator!wolfy1339@unaffiliated/bowserinator QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1480885374 0 :Bowserin-!wolfy1339@vps.wolfy1339.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1480885479 0 :Bowserinator!~Bowser@unaffiliated/bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric < 1480885665 0 :Bowserin-!wolfy1339@vps.wolfy1339.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1480885844 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1480885858 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :937) fungot: begrudging pat < 1480885890 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1480885891 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1168) "A phone touted as the first to put privacy and security ahead of all other considerations launched at a packed event at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, Spain, today." So, a paperweight? Yes I dunno man, could be bugged. < 1480885915 0 :atrapado_!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1480885919 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1480885919 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :302) oerjan you're swedish, right? < 1480885923 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1480885924 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :397) There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] You've just gave me a different result [...] It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur. < 1480885945 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1480885946 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :789) the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september < 1480886078 0 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :☺ < 1480886409 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? apic < 1480886413 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1480886427 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :does APic say more than a thousand words? < 1480886482 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And while I'm making up bad puns, it could also be an APic failure.) < 1480886497 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep you log for lines said by "words" and look if those from apic are at least 1000 times as much < 1480886627 0 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1480886641 0 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does not matter. < 1480886655 0 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: It does not make Sense. ;) < 1480886666 0 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Need to watch South-Park now. < 1480886793 0 :Elronnd!elronnd@znc.dank.ninja PART #esoteric : < 1480887035 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :always with the quotes < 1480887150 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1480887150 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :104) * Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from. To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia in there. < 1480887316 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcxhsctgca53ue.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1480889016 0 :hydraz!?@? NICK :amused < 1480889570 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1480889647 0 :Kaynato!~Aedile@casewireless03.CWRU.Edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1480893091 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :stagnating wages only makes sense where the 'legal tender' currency is inflated over time, no? < 1480893138 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been looking into how guilds and such in Europe made their payment and benefits rules < 1480893239 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :those evolved be basically by tradition and how much their work was worth relative to other services or products < 1480893297 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :in those days a coin was usually just the yardstick < 1480893331 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :or yardline more like < 1480893379 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you want your yardline to be of sturdy string and not made of streatchable rubber < 1480893584 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have made it a rule in life to greet anyone whom I know has a phd with "what's up doc" < 1480893634 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1480893647 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :626) i cnat eve begin to understand what you meant with that "one" < 1480893665 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1480893666 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :803) unfortunately df is not yet able to simulate norway < 1480893670 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1480893673 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :507) this strikes me as probably better than a singularity, because you can't trust a random AI, but you can probably trust olsner < 1480893681 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1480893682 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :180) Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) < 1480893687 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1480893688 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1083) are you saying the rockies and some mountains in norway are the same range < 1480893752 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i "This is my son, he's a doctor but not the kind that helps people" < 1480894428 0 :izalove!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :italian prime minister just resigned < 1480895388 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1480895978 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric