00:00:10 <shachaf> oerjan: are you saying santa claus is not evil tdnh
00:00:56 <shachaf> those out of context quotes and replies are frustrating tdnh
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00:01:39 <oerjan> well boily will probably ping out before he sees them, anyway.
00:01:42 -!- Frooxius has joined.
00:02:48 <oerjan> shachaf: beware of such comments, they may get you on the naughty list tdnh
00:04:41 <shachaf> if you get on that list twice does it cancel out
00:10:14 <lambdabot> LOWI 282350Z AUTO 28003KT 9999 NCD M04/M06 Q1040
00:10:36 <int-e> I thought it was a bit cold outside. Glad to have it confirmed.
00:12:51 <lambdabot> BIRK 290000Z 21023KT 9999 -SHSN FEW010 SCT035CB BKN064 01/M02 Q0998
00:14:07 <Zarutian> which of these field is the temperture and on what scale?
00:16:08 <oerjan> int-e: i hope GG's Grandma is as prepared as she gives impression of or this is going to turn _bad_ even in Family terms...
00:16:32 <LKoen> zzo38: are you the one who commented on the "orwell chess" chessvariant page?
00:16:53 <LKoen> this game attracted my attention a long time ago
00:16:57 <int-e> oerjan: Well this feels like a Grand Finale so it's time to kill a couple of main characters anyway *runs*
00:17:14 <oerjan> int-e: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
00:17:49 <int-e> I know, I know, we still haven't seen any time travel.
00:17:50 <oerjan> tarvek has hopefully taken his own antidote...
00:18:23 <Zarutian> int-e: because of the whole 'hotdog' incident it was pretty much banned.
00:18:50 <int-e> But the machines riding the time machines could be clanks built by van Rijn.
00:19:00 <int-e> Zarutian: does "GG" mean anything to you?
00:19:13 <int-e> Because I don't recall any hotdogs in there.
00:19:41 <oerjan> int-e: why would he build clanks looking like agatha, gil and moloch
00:20:00 <int-e> oerjan: To avoid plot holes!
00:20:10 <int-e> It'll be a bumpy ride as is :-P
00:20:56 <oerjan> int-e: i am sort of hoping that she was expecting the Queen when she told tarvek it would be "educational"
00:20:57 <Zarutian> int-e: depends. If from an First Person Shooter then it means Good Game
00:21:11 <int-e> (it's so much fun to mess with oerjan's head... usually it's the other way around)
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00:21:43 <Zarutian> int-e: Otherwise in an certain online RPG it stands for Gold Gainer
00:21:52 <int-e> Zarutian: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/ ... not required reading
00:22:11 <Zarutian> int-e: oh, I am sorry. I know too damn many acronyms
00:22:14 <int-e> But a very good web comic...
00:22:25 <int-e> Zarutian: you're forgiven
00:22:42 <Zarutian> I got it in a pinned tab in my web browser
00:23:01 <int-e> (I actually do see the "good game" variant quite a bit, in another online gaming context.)
00:23:04 <Zarutian> schlock merchanary is another good one.
00:23:44 <int-e> I have trouble dating that ship design though.
00:33:14 <int-e> Oh, it's back to the roots.
00:33:53 <frootykook> http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/!.images.page/welcome/welcomepage2.jpg
00:35:24 <int-e> (this helped: http://schlockmercenary.wikia.com/wiki/Kitesfear )
00:37:23 <int-e> which appeared here for the first time, http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2000-06-18
00:43:12 <int-e> and I suppose http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-02-13 was the last appearance; the explosion is http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-02-07; the last live appearance of the ship is http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-02-04 (last panel), my curiosity is satisfied :)
01:28:06 <\oren\> horay, I finished coptic!
01:28:26 <\oren\> ...well, the basic coptic alphabet
01:31:45 <\oren\> what shuld I do next...
01:33:52 <int-e> . o O ( `learn Coptology is comprised of coptanalysis and coptography. Coptanalysis is concerned with the disassembly and analysis of copters, whereas coptography is the art of designing and engineering copters that are robust against coptanalysis. )
01:37:12 <oerjan> int-e: you go right ahead
01:37:36 <int-e> `learn Coptology is comprised of coptanalysis and coptography. Coptanalysis is concerned with the disassembly and reverse engineering of copters, whereas coptography is the art of designing and engineering copters that are robust against coptanalysis.
01:37:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'coptology': Coptology is comprised of coptanalysis and coptography. Coptanalysis is concerned with the disassembly and reverse engineering of copters, whereas coptography is the art of designing and engineering copters that are robust against coptanalysis.
01:38:11 <HackEgo> trunc//The trunc and truncf functions (of C99 and C++11) are actually supported by the MS compiler (starting from the 2013), only strangely undocumented.
01:38:31 <int-e> (If anyone wonders where that came from... I wanted to read "coptic" as "cryptic" and the rest was kind of obvious.)
01:38:32 <HackEgo> repetive//A repetive action is one that tries to repeat something, but fails miserably.
01:40:05 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEsbMj3tfdE
01:51:30 <HackEgo> hagb4rd//hagb4rd is one spacey fellow. Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
01:51:40 <HackEgo> japan//Japan is so far from Finland. However, like Finland, it is so near to Russia, and quite a long way from Cairo. It's many fewer miles from Vietnam than Finland is.
01:54:00 <\oren\> “If you are corrupt, I will fetch you with a helicopter and I will throw you out on the way to Manila,” Duterte said, as cited by the Philippine Star newspaper.
01:56:04 <oerjan> research continues on whether it's best to elect politicians that are corrupt, or politicians that are straight up insane.
02:04:38 <fizzie> Japan is handier to get to from Finland than from UK.
02:04:52 <fizzie> As far as I can determine, the only direct flights from London to Japan are to Tokyo.
02:05:19 <pikhq> oerjan: America confounds by picking both of the above.
02:06:04 <fizzie> (From Finland, Finnair flies non-stop to at least four airports.)
02:07:53 <oerjan> pikhq: that's the control group
02:08:14 <fizzie> pikhq: Fukuoka, Nagoya (Chubu), Osaka (KIX) and Tokyo.
02:09:05 <pikhq> fizzie: There's not a "Tokyo Airport"; do you mean Tokyo Narita or Tokyo Haneda?
02:10:35 <fizzie> (From Heathrow you can get to both of those, but no other places in Japan.)
02:10:59 <pikhq> Little surprised they'd have a direct flight to Nagoya.
02:12:15 <fizzie> Well, Finnair tries to make a big deal about being a "gateway to Asia" for the European market.
02:12:37 <fizzie> https://www.finnair.com/gb/gb/destinations/asia-pacific/japan/nagoya
02:12:49 <fizzie> "We fly the geographically shorter route to Asia, making your flight time to Japan considerably shorter."
02:13:27 <pikhq> Oh, they fly to Nagoya out of London? Hah!
02:14:22 <pikhq> Oh, no, that's not direct, that's via Helsinki.
02:14:40 <fizzie> Yeah, it's showing "from London"-oriented info because I picked UK as my location.
02:15:03 <pikhq> Because otherwise it'd pick a non-English language, and that is the working language of #esoteric.
02:15:34 <fizzie> You can do "Finland, English" as well.
02:15:35 <fizzie> https://www.finnair.com/fi/gb/destinations/asia-pacific/japan/nagoya
02:15:58 <fizzie> (Not all combinations are valid, but it offers English in several geographical locations.)
02:16:38 <pikhq> I suppose there's going to be rather a lot of people all over Europe who only speak English and a language local to their place of birth but not to their current place of residence, so.
02:17:22 <pikhq> Well. Current location, not so much residence.
02:17:43 <pikhq> I at least assume if you're in an area for a reasonable amount of time you'd try to pick up the local language regardless. :)
02:22:34 <alercah> when I flew Toronto to Japan, we went over Russia
02:23:03 <pikhq> And Russia being a lot more close to Japan than people usually think.
02:23:44 <alercah> got a cool view of some random kamchatkan volcanoes
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02:33:45 <\oren\> I don't like the practice of naming things like "the hamiltonian". The hamiltonian what?
02:34:29 <fizzie> Quantas is planning to start a regular non-stop service from London to Perth, apparently the first such service from UK to Australia.
02:34:38 <int-e> \oren\: how do you feel about "the derivative" then?
02:34:39 <fizzie> "The flights are expected to run 14 times per week, and will take about 17 hours, depending on weather conditions."
02:35:22 <int-e> it's a far distance.
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02:52:34 <\oren\> i wonder how it would feel to spend 17 hours on an airplane
02:52:49 <\oren\> I've done 12 many times before
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03:16:14 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett.
03:20:53 <tswett> So, a deductive system that's missing one of the usual structural rules (weakening, contraction, exchange) is called a substructural logic.
03:21:09 <tswett> What do you call a deductive system that *has* all three of those rules?
03:21:26 <tswett> Is that a "fully structural logic" or something?
03:26:18 <hppavilion1> What would be the name of the `jew command variant for wisdom?
03:26:32 <hppavilion1> (we'll assume there's a command named `jew. It's a coincidence.)
03:27:30 <tswett> Still just substructural.
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03:31:52 <oerjan> hppavilion1: `trwll hth
03:32:51 <oerjan> the point is you're trolling hth
03:38:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: jww?: not found
03:47:02 <\oren\> and obviously `wow would become www
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04:42:28 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uizvFK2KQ_o
04:48:58 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjB8pwNRFmY
04:56:53 <zzo38> A chess problem mentioned in HAKMEM: 8/5BP1/1p6/8/1N6/kP6/2K5/8 #3
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05:30:13 <tswett> Hey folks, have a notation!
05:30:17 <tswett> Here's the unknot: A/V
05:30:31 <tswett> Here's a more verbose way of writing the unknot: A/II/V
05:30:40 <tswett> And an even more verbose way: A/II/II/II/II/II/II/V
05:31:17 <tswett> And another verbose way: AAAAA/IVVVVI/V
05:31:33 <tswett> All of those are knot diagrams with no crossings.
05:32:08 <tswett> Here's a diagram of the unknot, with lots of crossings going in the same direction: A/N/N/N/N/N/N/N/N/V
05:32:16 <tswett> Lots of crossings in the opposite direction: A/Z/Z/Z/Z/Z/V
05:33:23 <tswett> Here's a diagram of the unknot with lots of crossings, oriented horizontally this time:
05:43:09 <tswett> Here's the trefoil knot: AA/INI/ZZ/IVI/V
05:43:24 <zgrep> What's this notation?
05:44:55 <tswett> It's a notation for tangle diagrams, where "tangle" means the "in link theory" meaning here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangle_(mathematics)
05:46:10 <tswett> A represents a tangle with 0 endpoints on the top and 2 endpoints on the bottom. It's just an arc connecting the two endpoints.
05:46:23 <tswett> I represents a tangle with 1 endpoint on the top and 1 endpoint on the bottom. Again, just an arc connecting the two endpoints.
05:46:43 <tswett> V represents a tangle with 2 endpoints on the top and 0 endpoints on the bottom. Once again, just an arc connecting the two endpoints.
05:47:37 <tswett> N represents a tangle with 2 endpoints on the top and 2 endpoints on the bottom. There's an arc connecting top-left to bottom-right, crossing in front of an arc connecting top-right to bottom-left.
05:48:03 <tswett> Z represents a tangle with 2 endpoints on the top and 2 endpoints on the bottom. There's an arc connecting top-right to bottom-left, crossing in front of an arc connecting top-left to bottom-right.
05:50:28 <tswett> Juxtaposition represents... juxtaposition. If you juxtapose a tangle with t1 endpoints on the top and b1 endpoints on the bottom (a tangle t1 -> b1) and a tangle with t2 on the top and b2 on the bottom (a tangle t2 -> b2), you get a tangle with t1 + t2 on top and b1 + b2 on the bottom.
05:50:56 <tswett> The slash represents stacking or composition. If you compose a tangle t -> m and a tangle m -> b, you get a tangle t -> b.
05:51:20 <tswett> Of course, this means that tangles form a category.
05:51:31 * zgrep should learn a tad more about category theory
05:52:03 <alercah> only some and knots are tangles \{\} -> \{\}?
05:52:50 <tswett> Links are tangles 0 -> 0.
05:53:01 <tswett> Knots are tangles 0 -> 0 that have the property that there's only one component.
05:57:12 <tswett> If I'm not mistaken, there are surprisingly few axioms you need in order to get all of the equalities that you'd want.
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05:58:42 <tswett> Axiom AJ: Juxtaposition is associative. Axiom AC: Composition is associative. Axiom JC: (a/b) (c/d) = ac/bd.
05:59:07 <tswett> Axiom S: IA/VI = I (plus mirror images).
05:59:29 <tswett> Well, there's only one mirror image. It's AI/IV = I.
06:00:54 <tswett> "S" stands for "straighten", and the letter S also happens to resemble the left-hand side of the operation.
06:03:09 <tswett> Axiom Psi: IZ/VI = NI/IV (plus mirror images).
06:03:20 <tswett> This time there are 7 mirror images.
06:03:31 <tswett> "Psi" doesn't stand for anything, but the letter does resemble the left-hand side of the operation.
06:04:04 <tswett> Axiom R1: A = A/Z (plus 3 mirror images).
06:04:22 <tswett> Axiom R2: Z/N = II (plus 1 mirror image).
06:07:07 <tswett> Axiom R3: IN/NI/IZ = ZI/IN/NI (plus 3 mirror images).
06:08:56 <tswett> Let me redo that last one slightly.
06:09:02 <tswett> Axiom R3a: IN/NI/IZ = ZI/IN/NI (plus 3 mirror images).
06:10:49 <tswett> Axiom R3b: IN/NI/IN = NI/IN/NI (plus 1 mirror image).
06:11:01 <tswett> I think that's all of them.
06:18:03 <alercah> AJ and AC don't need to be axioms do they?
06:18:43 <alercah> also you need a logical system that allows you to apply these axioms in a subtangle of the tangle you're working with
06:21:03 <tswett> Sure, you need a logical system that obeys the substitution property.
06:21:35 <tswett> Why wouldn't you need AJ and AC as axioms? Associativity of operators doesn't just happen automatically.
06:22:10 <alercah> it can happen as a consequence of your definitions, which I believe it does here
06:28:11 <tswett> So how would you prove that (A/V) (A/V) = AA/VV?
06:28:34 <tswett> I think I'm missing one axiom. Here it is:
06:29:26 <tswett> Axiom I: Each tangle consisting of zero or more juxtapositions of I is an identity element for composition.
06:30:16 <tswett> ...okay, my question was silly, because you didn't say that you wouldn't need JC as an axiom, and so the answer is that you'd use axiom JC.
06:30:37 <tswett> Okay, how would you prove that (II)I = I(II)?
06:31:00 <tswett> Or that (N/N)/N = N/(N/N)?
06:34:39 <alercah> hmm I suppose I'm assuming that you have tangle operations defined already
06:35:14 <alercah> in which case, perhaps your approach is correct
06:35:33 <alercah> but I would generally prefer to define the composition and juxtaposition semantically rather than syntactically
06:38:46 <zgrep> What if I rotate a knot.
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08:17:07 * rdococ needs constant attention
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08:42:47 * rdococ still needs constant attention
08:54:11 * zgrep pours a bucket of detention on rdococ
08:54:25 <zgrep> I didn't have any attention nearby, so I thought it'd be close enough.
09:02:01 <Taneb> zgrep, do you have poor attention retention?
09:02:10 * rdococ snatches the bucket and uses it to attack zgrep with asphyxiation
09:02:38 <rdococ> I know it's not very close to attention, but it's the only thing I had.
09:02:48 <zgrep> Taneb: Don't even mention (it).
09:03:08 <zgrep> rdococ: I... hhhHHhhHHh... see...
09:03:19 * rdococ is pretending to have a small attention span
09:03:33 <zgrep> <span>attntn</span>
09:04:39 <zzo38> For chess problems there is the Codex of Chess. So, for Magic: the Puzzling, I invented the Codex of Magic: the Gathering. However, some things are missing and if you know of any problem it causes that hopefully I could fix it.
09:05:44 <rdococ> hllo. I wll now use an abitary losy copresin algitm fr Eglsh.
09:06:17 * zgrep is reminded of http://ed-von-schleck.github.io/shoco/
09:12:42 * rdococ gives zgrep some more asphyxiation
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12:16:10 <hppavilion1> rdococ: My grandmother used to talk by dropping all the vowels
12:21:56 <rdococ> hw dd sh prnnc cnsnnts lke tht?
12:22:34 <rdococ> how would she string consonants together tho?
12:26:58 <FireFly> (was some other net splitting recently too?)
12:28:08 <hppavilion1> FireFly: Foonetic is having a shittonne of netsplits
12:28:35 <hppavilion1> FireFly: I had THREE Foonetic tabs open the other day, one on each running server we could find.
12:28:48 <hppavilion1> rdococ: I have no idea. She must be a god.
12:29:02 <FireFly> I don't know enough about foonetic..
12:29:23 <zgrep> That's all I've ever seen / been on it.
12:29:52 <rdococ> we have i^2 = -1, |@| = -1, I wonder what other functions we could define impossible circumstances for, and use for new numbers
12:29:55 <hppavilion1> rdococ: But in all seriousness, she only did it while texting. I think I eventually snapped at her and said "This is English, not Arabic. We use an alphabet, not a fucking abjad", but I don't think I said it like that (citation: She's my grandma) and I'm not sure if I ever really said it
12:31:32 <zgrep> hppavilion1: Gamma? $?
12:31:33 <rdococ> |x| = sin(t) + icos(t) and we have an infinite number of numbers including @ and γ
12:31:43 <rdococ> s/sin/cos and s/cos/sin I got those mixed up
12:31:48 <rdococ> but whatever it doesn't mean too much
12:31:52 <zgrep> hppavilion1: But... now I have to find my gamma key.
12:31:58 <zgrep> Maybe I should get an APL keyboard.
12:32:13 <hppavilion1> zgrep: Do you have a custom keyboard layout? :D
12:32:21 <zgrep> No, but I could easily set one up.
12:34:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wa: not found
12:34:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
12:34:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/w
12:35:34 <fizzie> What on earth could you possibly be looking for?
12:35:51 * zgrep . o O ( The ISS. )
12:36:27 <fizzie> "wa" is a weird abbreviation for the ISS.
12:36:41 <rdococ> international space station?
12:37:35 <zgrep> That'd make a tad more sense...
12:37:52 <rdococ> sqrt(i)^8 = i^4 = -1^2 = 1
12:39:24 <rdococ> tbh if I were to choose an existing angular measurement other than radians I'd go for grads (1 grad = τ/400)
12:39:53 <rdococ> if I were able to make my own I would use powers of 12 eg. 144 because of their high divisibility.
12:40:29 <hppavilion1> rdococ: I hate grads. Also, that's why we use 360
12:41:05 <rdococ> but 1/3 of 90 degrees is 33.33333.... not a pretty number. but 1/3 of 36 rdococs are 12 rdococs.
12:41:39 <hppavilion1> rdococ: They're both superior highly composite numbers
12:41:48 <hppavilion1> rdococ: 360 is at least less arbitrary than 400
12:42:47 <hppavilion1> rdococ: I like bidrees, which are 1/256. I'm making a physics calculator that can do angles nicely, and it implements, like, 12 types of measurement.
12:42:48 * rdococ is now enlightened with hppavilion1's wisdom
12:43:10 <rdococ> 1 / a power of 2? nope pls
12:44:05 <rdococ> but in defense of 144, in the dozenal system a quarter would be 30_12 rdococs, and a third 40_12 rdococs
12:45:09 <rdococ> you mean bidrees? I guess that's good for binary computing
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12:48:16 <zgrep> Oh, that's right... HackEgo is tightly locked down, it can't make any sort of network requests. :(
12:51:58 <zgrep> At least, it could, were some sort of proxy running.
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13:12:29 <rdococ> τ is a fun number but I prefer τ/4. e^iτ/4 = i c:
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13:15:49 <fizzie> zgrep: There was a proxy thing (with an explicit whitelist), but it got out of order during a move.
13:16:03 <fizzie> zgrep: At any rate, if "wa" meant Wolfram|Alpha, that sort of command would be explicitly against the Wolfram|Alpha Terms of Use.
13:16:21 <fizzie> "The Wolfram|Alpha service may be used only by a human being using a conventional web browser to manually enter queries one at a time."
13:16:54 <rdococ> so Siri doing it is against the terms?
13:17:12 <fizzie> I expect they have a separate agreement.
13:17:39 <fizzie> (Presumably an actual API as well.)
13:20:21 <zgrep> fizzie: But the API has its own terms of use.
13:20:51 <fizzie> Oh, they've got a public thing now?
13:20:58 <zgrep> They have for a long time.
13:21:02 <fizzie> Last time we had this discussion, the website was the only thing they had.
13:21:13 <zgrep> Well, for a long time from my perspective.
13:21:35 <zgrep> http://products.wolframalpha.com/docs/WolframAlpha-API-Reference.pdf
13:21:37 <rdococ> yeah they do have an api
13:21:51 <fizzie> In that case, that's different.
13:22:21 <zgrep> I was going to use an API key, etc. It's limited, but since HackEgo can't let me get things from / via the API anyway, *shrug*.
13:22:28 <zgrep> At least, not unless I do it manually.
13:25:04 <fizzie> Apparently you'd have to do the link thing anyway, it's kind of ugly for IRC.
13:25:13 <fizzie> ("Unless part of a written agreement to the contrary, You are required to provide a hyperlink to http://www.wolframalpha.com on every page with Results.")
13:25:36 <fizzie> I guess that's relatively short link.
13:25:39 <zgrep> Well, IRC technically doesn't have pages.
13:26:11 <zgrep> I know of at least one bot that doesn't link to wolfram alpha every time.
13:26:42 <fizzie> I wouldn't expect them to actually enforce that.
13:27:09 <fizzie> It's a bit of a shame the proxy thing is broken, there were some other commands that also used the internets that no longer work as well.
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13:31:48 <rdococ> what would happen if there were particles that attracted their charge?
13:31:59 <rdococ> would they just be the opposite charge?
13:33:52 <zgrep> At some (small) distances, certain forces overpower electromagnetic forces. Stuff sticks together, like atoms, which is handy for our continued existence.
13:39:46 <rdococ> I wonder, in a world made of tachyons, would we look like the FTL matter?
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14:06:18 <int-e> zgrep: may the strong force be with you!
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14:37:00 <rdococ> what kind of type is int-e anyway?
14:41:20 <\oren\> answers.com is such a crap
14:44:10 <rdococ> wonder what type int-e is.
14:44:23 <rdococ> maybe a multiple of e?
14:46:23 <rdococ> oh my god IE IS IMAGINARY E
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14:53:36 * rdococ ponders the facts that 0+1i is a 90 degree rotation, but 0+1i+0j+0k is 180 degrees.
14:54:40 <rdococ> anyone have any thoughts on the topic?
14:56:47 * myname gives rdococ e,attention
14:57:36 <rdococ> 0+1i is a tau/4 rotation in the complex plane, but a tau/2 rotation in the quaternion hyperspace.
15:05:41 <int-e> it appears that conjugation isn't the same as multiplication
15:06:38 <int-e> yes. conjugation is how quaternions give rise to rotation, x |-> a x a^-1
15:07:14 <int-e> (IIRC, but I'm fairly certain anyway)
15:08:04 <rdococ> 0 + 1k is equal to the Euler angle (180, 180, 0) = (0, 0, 180)
15:08:12 <rdococ> and you get that by multiplying i and j
15:08:17 <rdococ> ij, not ji which is -k
15:09:17 <rdococ> (180, 0, 0) + (0, 180, 0) = (180, 180, 0) = (0, 0, 180), and ij = k
15:09:29 <rdococ> that's how I know it's multiplication, not conjugation
15:12:09 <int-e> i^-1 = -1; i(ai + bj + ck)(-i) = (-a+bk-cj)(-i) = ai-bj-ck
15:12:26 * rdococ has just been thrown letters
15:12:43 <rdococ> 1/i = -i, I'm pretty sure
15:12:50 <int-e> well, use x y z instead of a b c if you prefer those names for coordinates.
15:13:05 <int-e> it won't change the fact that the operation being used is conjugation.
15:14:58 <int-e> *composition* of rotations is multiplication, becuae r (s x s^-1) r^-1 = (r s) x (r s)^-1. That's a law of conjugates.
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15:55:04 <HackEgo> notsuredom//A state of incertitude, partial existence, dubiosity and conjecturability.
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16:14:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * FTcode * New user account
16:29:54 <int-e> rdococ: some quaternion math: http://sprunge.us/FUTg
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17:57:48 <int-e> . o O ( let's make something up: personalized differential advertising )
18:03:32 <boily> . o O ( polymerized ductile acacia )
18:05:00 * rdococ wonders the mechanics of the humble cog in four dimensional space.
18:06:30 <int-e> boily: tbh I scared myself a little there; my interpretaion of "differential advertising" would be planting an idea in somebody's mind in such small incremental steps that they don't notice it happening.
18:07:22 <rdococ> that does sound creepy
18:08:11 <boily> int-e: Burma Shave Mind Control.
18:08:27 <boily> but don't worry, it's personalized!
18:08:39 <rdococ> Personalized Mind Control (TM)(C)(R)
18:09:22 <rdococ> Differential advertising sounds much more sinister in my opinion.
18:09:37 <rdococ> tbh I think some of it might be going on today.
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19:29:28 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0tWfZU0b2I
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19:34:54 <Taneb> Things really are magical sometimess#
19:35:38 <Notebook> I was in a car accident two days ago!
19:35:38 <Taneb> Think about adding and multiplying, and boom, you get polynomials
19:35:51 <Taneb> Generalise them just a little and boom, algebraic geometry
19:35:59 <Taneb> Notebook, are you OK?
19:36:19 <int-e> Well, so far it was single exclamation marks... it may be fine.
19:36:59 <int-e> fungot: Are you more coherent than Notebook?
19:36:59 <fungot> int-e: any new languages? :) taken me all night if you ask me, assuming he's an intentional troll. what is the definition
19:37:23 <int-e> fungot: I'll take that as a no.
19:37:23 <fungot> int-e: i recompiled it with code to resize and copy the commands there are shortcuts
19:37:31 <Taneb> I've been in a couple of crashes like that
19:37:49 <Taneb> Both going southbound on the A68 from Scotland with my dad driving and me in the front seat
19:39:31 <Taneb> All of those are unusual ages for drivers
19:39:53 <Notebook> Well, Timeis infinitely divisible, so everyone is infinity!
19:40:26 <Notebook> And human civilization isn't even visible on a timeline of the universe, from beginning to end.
19:40:41 <Notebook> And I'm a lot younger than human civilization.
19:43:06 * int-e ponders the ieea of a 14 year old notebook...
19:43:32 <int-e> I'd hope it's the dead tree kind, then it would still be of some use :P
19:43:58 <int-e> It may be too late for that now.
19:44:01 <Taneb> int-e, I probably have one somewhere
19:44:40 <Taneb> Oh dear, let's hear it
19:44:46 <Notebook> A multilayered game theory AI.
19:45:35 <Notebook> It basically breaks down problems and solves them but by bit.
19:45:51 <HackEgo> Binary file reflection matches
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19:46:53 <int-e> This channel seems to be unbuzzing with activity.
19:46:59 <Taneb> What sort of problems, Notebook
19:48:23 <int-e> "breaking down problems" is a hard problem.
19:48:40 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Notebook has encountered a problem and needs to restart. Please contact TotallyNotBots for additional help
19:48:58 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 20h 43m 34s ago: <hppavilion[1]> Is the ring the Gaussian Integers form prime? <-- yes, obviously hth
19:49:41 <Notebook> It's more that it's a silly idea.
19:50:11 <int-e> (In *very* easy cases this idea underlies what's called "dynamic programming")
19:50:28 <Notebook> Not the dynamic programming things.
19:51:08 <Notebook> What is Dynamic Programming, anyway?
19:51:52 <int-e> No, the "programming" there derives from its use in optimization. (like "linear programming")
19:52:20 <Notebook> For the record, I'm new to coding.
19:52:40 <Notebook> Linear usually refers to straight things, cause to effect, right?
19:52:44 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit, I accidentally edited the topic on my end (before submitting)
19:53:01 <hppavilion[1]> I want to refresh it, but I've never been sure how without leaving and rejoining
19:53:05 <int-e> The basic idea is that when a problem's solution can be derived from smaller instances of the same kind of problem, then you can speed this up by basically tabulating the answers for all those smaller problems (thus avoiding computing the answer for the same smaller problem several times, at the cost of increased memory usage)
19:54:03 <int-e> "linear programming" is "linear optimization", minimizing or maximizing the value of a linear function in real variables subject to linear constraints (linear inequalities with the same variables)
19:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> ...huh, you were referencing Doctor Who before I joined the channel.
19:54:55 <Notebook> The thing about linear programming.
19:56:05 <Notebook> But probably the other fellow, because my father hit him in the side, implying he passed in front.
19:56:16 <int-e> I'm trying to get across to you that the "programming" in "linear programming", and also in "dynamic programming" has almost nothing to do with programming computers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_programming
19:56:21 <hppavilion[1]> Notebook: You were referencing Doctor Who before I joined the channel, then I referenced the Daleks after joining. If you aren't particularly used to IRC, it should be noted that your client doesn't show you what happened before you joined unless the network has a service for that.
19:57:03 <hppavilion[1]> Notebook: Wait, who told you time is infinitely divisible?
19:57:36 <Notebook> In that you can always cut it smaller, unlike matter.
19:57:37 <Taneb> Notebook, is space also infinitely divisible
19:58:09 <int-e> Planck might disagree somewhat
19:58:33 <Notebook> Anyway, int-e , I didn't understand a word of that.
19:58:50 <int-e> Don't worry about it.
19:59:47 <Notebook> Anyways, I was just think that having multiple optimization systems compute various aspects of the problem, while more resource intensive in the short run, may be more efficient overall.
20:00:02 <Notebook> Also, it could improve itself faster.
20:00:58 <Notebook> Just thought I should bounce it off people who know more about computers than me.
20:01:12 <hppavilion[1]> Notebook: Planck time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_time) and Planck length (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_length) are units of measurement based on fundamental constants of the universe; by all current understandings of physics, it doesn't make sense to talk about a distance shorter than the Planck Length or a duration shorter than the Planck Time. hth.
20:06:01 <int-e> It's really way too vague to say anything meaningful about it. So I'll go with "sounds good".
20:09:19 <hppavilion[1]> Notebook: Whether there IS time or length shorter than Planck units is irrelevant to science; you can argue there is or there isn't, but by our understanding of physics, it doesn't change anything.
20:12:43 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I get the feeling decomposing problems is NP, at least
20:13:40 <hppavilion[1]> It can definitely be checked in P if it can be reduced to finitely-many combinations of inputs and outputs, but that might be trivial...
20:17:04 <hppavilion[1]> Notebook: The hardest open problem in all of computer science, and possibly mathematics, iirc
20:18:13 <hppavilion[1]> Notebook: It's one of the millennium prize problems, so a correct solution nets you $1_000_000 at least, and there may be other prizes also open for it that bring that up even more.
20:18:59 * Notebook is in grade 9, for the record.
20:19:27 <hppavilion[1]> Notebook: I think I did polynomials in 7th, but OTOH I was put in the really-smart-person basket
20:19:50 <hppavilion[1]> (Not just the smart-person basket; the REALLY-smart-person basket. Not sure why though :P)
20:21:28 <hppavilion[1]> Notebook: Polynomials in some set of variables are expressions/functions/whatever that can be written as summing terms of a real constant (or maybe complex, or maybe just whatever, I forget) multiplied by some variables to natural number powers.
20:22:18 <myname> hppavilion[1]: NP is not really the hardest
20:22:32 <myname> they are like a few dozen harder complexity classes
20:22:46 <myname> NP <= PSPACE for example
20:22:48 <hppavilion[1]> Notebook: So, for example, f x = x^2 and f x = 2x^3+4.5x^2-9x+4 are polynomials, whereas f x = x^-1, f x = x^2.5, and f x = 2^x are not
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20:23:15 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I meant that P vs. NP is the hardest PROBLEM to solve, not that NP is the hardest TYPE of problem
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20:23:46 <hppavilion[1]> If you include Undecidables, those are obviously the hardest
20:24:19 <myname> what a mess of a language
20:24:33 <hppavilion[1]> Notebook: In computers, it's often useful to know how a problem gets harder as it grows. You write this in big O notation as O(whatever), which I barely understand.
20:25:45 <myname> hppavilion[1]: big o is pretty simple, f is in O(g) if there is a constant c and an n_0 with c*f(n) <= g(n) for all n >= n_0
20:25:56 <hppavilion[1]> Notebook: A problem in P can be solved in O(p) time, where p is a polynomial and the variable represents the size of the problem; so an O(n^2) problem takes time proportional to the square of the problem size. You can usually eliminate constants and smaller terms, so O(2x^2+3x+9) is the same as O(x^2) iirc
20:26:35 <myname> e.g. if you draw f(x) = x and g(x) = x^2 you will,have points on f that are above g, but they will not appear for x >= 1
20:27:08 <myname> Notebook: how did you get here?
20:27:08 <hppavilion[1]> Notebook: Ah. I'm not sure I ever started doing hard math; most of it was just example expressions other than the big O
20:28:00 <hppavilion[1]> Notebook: What particular parts don't you understand? Out of curiosity.
20:28:28 <shachaf> I was reading all those as "note to self".
20:28:32 <myname> explaining NP really is nothing you want to do on irc ad hoc
20:39:33 <hppavilion[1]> ...is Notebook just going to sit in the channel, or...
20:43:32 <int-e> . o O ( But explaining NP can be so SATisfying. )
20:50:09 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit, I have a Norouiga question but ørjan is offline >.<
20:50:36 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any minimal pairings in any languages distinguished only by "æ" vs. "ae"?
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22:10:56 <shachaf> int-e: Yes, the behavior of qualified class method definitions is pretty odd.
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22:47:13 <zzo38> The various kind of stuff
22:49:45 <zzo38> Do you think this is good? http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/artifact/427c9f72f49f667e
22:56:47 <zzo38> How do I find the files for the X10 compatibility functions?
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23:10:39 <oerjan> hippavilion[1]. there is no such thing as norouiga hth
23:11:26 <oerjan> . o O ( and never the twain shall meet )
23:12:16 <int-e> ... clicked \oren\'s youtube links... what is wrong with you, \oren\?!
23:12:31 <oerjan> int-e: i've long since learned not to do that hth
23:13:00 <oerjan> (not because they're disturbing, mind you, i just don't really care about anime stuff)
23:13:09 <int-e> I'm usually saved by lack of bandwidth
23:13:24 <int-e> but I went to the university to download some 33c3 videos.
23:15:10 <int-e> and now I'm passing some time waiting for a bus.
23:15:19 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Are there any minimal pairings in any languages distinguished only by "æ" vs. "ae"? <-- hm might be tricky. ae is rather rare in norwegian, as is æ.
23:16:18 <oerjan> that is not a common term hth
23:17:12 <oerjan> that pronunciation makes no sense for that spelling, either
23:17:40 <oerjan> i've vaguely heard of that.
23:17:54 <hppavilion[1]> "Ouija Board" has a name like [wiː.dʒi] for some reason
23:18:38 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Thus endeth the longest pronunciation in guide in history )
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23:51:53 <LKoen> @message zzo38 hi! have you tried playing orwell chess yet? was your comment about maharaja purely rational, or empirical?
23:51:53 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
23:52:07 <LKoen> @send zzo38 hi! have you tried playing orwell chess yet? was your comment about maharaja purely rational, or empirical?
23:52:41 <LKoen> @send zzo38 hi have you tried playing orwell chess yet was your comment about maharaja purely rational or empirical
23:52:43 <lambdabot> error: Not in scope: type variable ‘zzo38’
23:52:43 <lambdabot> error: Not in scope: type variable ‘hi’
23:52:43 <lambdabot> error: Not in scope: type variable ‘have’
23:53:03 <LKoen> well at least I don't need to send the message
23:53:28 <zzo38> Ouija board in QWERTY order is called a "Luigi board".
23:56:13 <LKoen> I'm looking around for second-hand checkers set to recycle into an orwell chess set
23:56:29 <LKoen> once that's done the harder part will of course be to find players
23:56:53 <zzo38> Chess set that I have is combine chess/checkers/backgammon; if you have one of those then you can use checkers too.
23:57:00 <LKoen> I think it's okay that the maharaja is more powerful than the other pieces. it's a way to reward the player who captured a royal piece
23:57:03 <zzo38> And also to use the dice
23:57:39 <LKoen> well, my problem is there are 17 pieces per player in orwell chess
23:57:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: my search of /usr/share/dict/norsk finds only a single example, aksillaer/aksillær. not exactly household words :P
23:58:14 <LKoen> I have several chess sets with pieces that have approximately the same size and different colours, but I'd be missing the gryphon piece or something
23:58:33 <oerjan> (presumably they mean axillas and axillary, respectively)
23:58:52 <LKoen> so my plan was to make "printed pieces", in a way similar to chinese chess
23:59:00 <LKoen> except with images instead of chinese characters
23:59:18 <oerjan> in theory you could have several similar words, but the word list has none.
23:59:37 <LKoen> but that requires 17*3 = 51 checkers pieces, which is more than one checkers set