←2017-02-22 2017-02-23 2017-02-24→ ↑2017 ↑all
00:00:06 <oerjan> i do hth
00:00:28 <oerjan> at least i think so.
00:00:32 <fizzie> In addition to oerjan, my wife and many style guides.
00:00:56 <oerjan> ^ul ((0123456789)S:^):^
00:00:56 <fungot> 012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123 ...too much output!
00:01:01 <APic>
00:01:12 <APic> http://zdf1112-lh.akamaihd.net/i/de12_v1@392882/master.m3u8 just for the Record, sorry ☺
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00:06:02 <oerjan> looking at the log, clearly we should ask Ken M to name the _next_ four presidents in order.
00:10:35 <boily> Access Denied
00:10:37 <boily> You don't have permission to access "http://zdf1112-lh.akamaihd.net/i/de12_v1@392882/master.m3u8" on this server.
00:10:39 <boily> Reference #18.62fa7f60.1487808625.7cd07f8
00:11:44 <oerjan> it was just for the record, you weren't supposed to look at it hth
00:12:28 <shachaf> boily is the record
00:12:54 * oerjan cannot name the second king of Norway either.
00:13:55 <oerjan> hm apparently if was Erik Blodøks
00:14:40 <oerjan> *Eirik
00:19:15 * boily feels recorded
00:20:08 <boily> fungot: you wouldn't happen to be spying on me, are you?
00:20:09 <fungot> boily: thanks. i really was joking about the implication. hence the text below the pic i draw today at labyrinth
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00:31:12 * boily hates scrolls of acquirement.
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00:31:29 <shachaf> scrolls of acquirement are tg
00:31:40 <shachaf> get an armour
00:33:15 <boily> Totally Gnarly?
00:33:31 <boily> I always get an armor, and it gave me a +0 buckler. woohoo.
00:33:42 <shachaf> too good
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00:43:29 <fizzie> boily: At least it wasn't a negative zero.
00:44:09 <oerjan> `? tg
00:44:10 <HackEgo> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
00:44:30 <shachaf> `cwlprits tg
00:44:31 <HackEgo> int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän
00:44:38 * oerjan waves
00:44:42 <shachaf> int-e: did you play The Witness hth
00:44:59 <shachaf> @time int-e
00:45:00 <lambdabot> Local time for int-e is Thu Feb 23 01:44:58 2017
00:45:05 <shachaf> Ah.
00:45:11 <shachaf> I don't remember whether int-e has Microsoft Windows.
00:46:56 <boily> int-e is near LOWI, so six hours from here, so that is about right.
00:47:12 <shachaf> What is int-e's body weigh?
00:49:11 <oerjan> `icao lowi
00:49:12 <HackEgo> Innsbruck (INN, LOWI)
00:49:57 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
00:49:57 <lambdabot> ENVA 222350Z 33015KT 9999 FEW030 SCT082 M01/M06 Q0980 RMK WIND 670FT 33023KT
00:50:08 <boily> sorry, I don't have int-e's body weigh on file.
00:50:29 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
00:50:29 <lambdabot> EGLL 230020Z AUTO 23015KT 9999 OVC008 11/10 Q1004 TEMPO BKN012
00:51:17 <boily> shachaf: also, I am wholly missing you. I can put you at KOAK with a 150~250 lbs range.
00:51:21 <boily> @metar CYUL
00:51:21 <lambdabot> CYUL 230000Z 09004KT 15SM FEW030 SCT150 BKN220 04/01 A2983 RMK SC1AC2CI2 SLP105
00:51:26 <boily> fizzie: 11???
00:51:43 <shachaf> boily: i would prefer to remain unrecorded twh
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00:52:42 <boily> noted.
00:57:31 <fizzie> boily: It was 17 this Monday.
00:58:05 <fizzie> I had lunch with some other Finns at work on the balcony.
00:58:57 <fizzie> @wn fohn
00:58:59 <lambdabot> *** "fohn" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:58:59 <lambdabot> fohn
00:58:59 <lambdabot> n 1: a warm dry wind that blows down the northern slopes of the
00:58:59 <lambdabot> Alps [syn: {fohn}, {foehn}]
00:59:02 <fizzie> ^ I hear it's because of that.
00:59:14 <fizzie> Not sure about the details, but that was mentioned.
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01:00:32 <oerjan> the famous british alps
01:00:47 * oerjan thinks that's cognate to no:fønvind
01:01:32 <fizzie> "Föhntuuli" in Finnish.
01:02:35 <oerjan> oh, seems to properly have an ö in german. might be a borrowing then.
01:03:35 <fizzie> "A weather phenomenon called the Foehn Effect is behind the unusually high temperatures set to deliver Britain's warmest February day in five years."
01:04:11 <fizzie> "However, it is all change from mid-week with another bout of cold, wet and windy weather ready to pounce."
01:06:19 <oerjan> from latin favonius, claims wikipedia.
01:07:00 <fizzie> They keep giving wind speeds in miles per hour here, and I can only grok them at all in metres per second, since that's the conventional unit in Finland.
01:07:10 <fizzie> Was there a conversion thing in one of the many bots?
01:08:03 <boily> right, I always forget fizzie dissociated.
01:08:08 <boily> @metar EFHK
01:08:08 <lambdabot> EFHK 230050Z 16012KT 1800 SN DRSN BKN004 00/M00 Q0970 TEMPO 1200
01:08:15 <boily> makes more sense now!
01:09:04 <fizzie> Oo-moo.
01:09:06 <fizzie> `` units '47 mph' m/s
01:09:07 <HackEgo> ​* 21.01088 \ / 0.047594389
01:09:18 <fizzie> I can never really remember how to use that thing.
01:10:27 <fizzie> "SN DRSN" -- snow and then highly educated snow.
01:10:27 <oerjan> `frink 47 mph -> m/s
01:10:34 <HackEgo> 65659/3125 (exactly 21.01088)
01:10:48 <fizzie> That one I can't even remember the name of.
01:10:51 <boily> fizzie: snow drift hth.
01:11:13 <boily> (or drizzly snow? direct reference snow?)
01:11:23 <oerjan> frink also does basic calculations
01:11:41 <oerjan> (and possibly advanced ones, i think it's a PL)
01:11:43 <boily> lumituisku.
01:12:40 <fizzie> "Some very strong winds are expected on Thursday in association with storm Doris with gusts of 60-70 mph likely, and 70-80 mph on coasts and hills."
01:12:46 <fizzie> I see they've given this one a name as well.
01:13:30 <oerjan> hm norwegian storms also have names, but i don't think they're the same names since they're often norwegian ones.
01:13:44 <fizzie> Apparently names are a new idea here.
01:13:50 <fizzie> Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_storm_naming_in_the_United_Kingdom_and_Ireland
01:13:59 <fizzie> In Finland they've had names longer as well, I think.
01:14:19 <oerjan> it's not that old in norway either.
01:15:09 <fizzie> I believe in Finland they're just named based on the name day calendar for the first day of the storm.
01:15:15 <fizzie> Here they're doing the alphabetical thing.
01:18:05 <fizzie> I think I remember hearing that for the "real storms" (Atlantic hurricanes and such) they recycle names except when it's a really impressive one, then they'll remove that name from further circulation.
01:19:21 <oerjan> yeah i remember that too
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01:38:15 <boily> `wisdom
01:38:16 <HackEgo> logs//I think you might mean !logs
01:38:23 <boily> !logs
01:38:36 <boily> (which bot was ! again?)
01:41:10 <shachaf> ^prefixes
01:41:10 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
01:41:21 <oerjan> in this case it's glogbot, though.
01:41:49 <oerjan> zemhill___ also uses !
01:42:32 <boily> !whargharbl
01:42:48 <boily> not very responsive...
01:43:01 <oerjan> none of them ever responded to random commands, which is how they _could_ share the prefix in the first place.
01:43:15 <oerjan> !help
01:43:15 <zemhill___> oerjan: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
01:45:12 <fizzie> All those underscores. :/
01:46:32 <boily> ___ ___ ___ ♪
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02:11:48 <zzo38> A C program reading from stdin by read() is sometimes not reading the data. Do you know how to fix this?
02:12:36 <shachaf> What is it doing instead?
02:13:42 <zzo38> Not reading the data; read() returns something other than the length of the data (I haven't yet checked what exactly).
02:14:18 <shachaf> Maybe you just need to call read() again?
02:14:58 <zzo38> I get 208000 bytes instead of the full 1254410 bytes.
02:15:16 <zzo38> And, yes, I suppose to call read() again will work. But why won't it read everything at once?
02:15:30 <shachaf> What is stdin?
02:16:47 <zzo38> The stdin is from a Node.js program that is using the child_process module to pipe the data to it
02:16:57 <fizzie> "The value returned may be less than nbyte if the number of bytes left in the file is less than nbyte, if the read() request was interrupted by a signal, or if the file is a pipe or FIFO or special file and has fewer than nbyte bytes immediately available for reading."
02:17:20 <shachaf> It sounds like it's a pipe.
02:17:25 <zzo38> Yes I think it is a pipe
02:17:27 <shachaf> I'd expect it to be split up.
02:17:50 <zzo38> Will just repeating it until all bytes are read or it returns -1 to work?
02:17:58 <shachaf> More likely it'll return 0.
02:21:15 <zzo38> What should I have it do if the return value is zero?
02:26:34 <shachaf> Zero indicates end of file, according to read(2)
02:26:52 <shachaf> But did you know that you can keep reading from a pipe after you get 0?
02:31:41 <fizzie> If you're using curl -F 'something=<-' to read a form value from standard input, you have to type ^d twice, because curl will try to keep reading from the standard input once after getting a 0.
02:32:24 <shachaf> Why?
02:35:06 <fizzie> I'm not sure. I think I may have had a plausible explanation, but can't remember.
02:36:16 <fizzie> "cat - -" behaves in a similar way, though there the reasons are rather more obvious.
02:39:34 <shachaf> What happens if you put data in both stdins?
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02:44:48 <oerjan> shachaf: cat; rot13 does what i expected, anyway
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02:47:40 <fizzie> shachaf: If you meant curl, it will also concatenate. And it won't exit before you provide it two ^d's with no intervening data.
02:47:53 <shachaf> Ah.
02:47:57 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
02:48:49 * oerjan hopes other people didn't get targeted
02:49:30 <fizzie> _o/ didn't.
02:52:34 <shachaf> https://github.com/curl/curl/blob/master/lib/formdata.c#L1325
02:52:41 <shachaf> Seems a bit odd?
02:57:27 <Sgeo> So in Ada, 'Access seems to be the way to get a thing to pass around to a function, but is also dangerous?
02:57:33 * Sgeo should attempt to learn Ada
02:58:18 <Sgeo> Ada > Prismata, right shachaf?
02:58:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sacred]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51090&oldid=51046 * DanielJohnBenton * (+248) Sacred interpreter
02:59:09 <shachaf> Sure?
02:59:36 <shachaf> You've been obsessed with Ada for years.
02:59:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:DanielJohnBenton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51091 * DanielJohnBenton * (+151) links
03:00:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:DanielJohnBenton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51092&oldid=51091 * DanielJohnBenton * (+118) favourite esolang
03:15:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sacred]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51093&oldid=51090 * DanielJohnBenton * (+1) fix "include" typo ("includes")
03:23:51 <shachaf> fizzie: OK, so if you type "abc\n^Ddef\n^D^D", fread returns 4, 4, and 0.
03:24:08 <shachaf> I guess that's expected behavior.
03:24:18 <shachaf> It should check feof() or something.
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03:32:06 <shachaf> I've mentioned the bug in #curl
03:39:59 <zzo38> shachaf: OK, if I can keep reading from a pipe after zero, but then what? It does not explain so much, what should be done?
03:40:21 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you mean?
03:41:35 <zzo38> I intend to read until the full length is filled, or if there is an error or if the other end of the pipe is closed.
03:42:23 <shachaf> Then just stop reading when read() successfully returns 0.
03:43:14 <zzo38> Is that the only case that it will?
03:44:11 <shachaf> That's what my man page seems to say.
03:45:44 <zzo38> OK, then that should work. (It still indicates an error though, because the program does not expect to receive any different amount of data)
04:00:55 <\oren\> Radioactive wild boars have been detected in Czech forests
04:04:23 <oerjan> . o O ( are these alpha males? )
04:13:46 <shachaf> fizzie: https://github.com/curl/curl/issues/1281 hth
04:13:53 <shachaf> If I didn't dislike GitHub pull requests so much, I'd fix it. Maybe I should email a patch?
04:28:08 <Sgeo> shachaf, iirc you've repeatedly pushed me to look at Ada
04:29:57 <shachaf> Yes, that's what actually happened.
04:30:02 <shachaf> You were never very interested.
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05:13:11 <significance> Hey all! Befunge noob here :) In the cat program ~:1+!#@_, how does the program ever end?
05:13:50 <significance> Wouldn't the ASCII value of the inputted character have to be -1, so that when you add 1 to it and negate it, it becomes 1?
05:13:53 <shachaf> `relcome significance
05:13:54 <HackEgo> significance: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
05:14:02 <significance> shachaf: thank you!!
05:14:49 <significance> shachaf: Would this be the right channel to ask my question?
05:15:06 <oerjan> definitely
05:15:11 <shachaf> It would be a pretty good choice.
05:15:11 <significance> oerjan: thanks :)
05:15:20 <significance> Perfect -- thank you!
05:16:13 <oerjan> probably -1 is exactly the value befunge uses for end of input.
05:16:20 <shachaf> "In the case of an end-of-file or other file error condition, the & and ~ both act like r."
05:16:26 <significance> oerjan: ahh, thank you!
05:16:30 <oerjan> shachaf: oh
05:16:36 <shachaf> In http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html at least.
05:17:38 <significance> shachaf: does r just multiply by negative one?
05:17:54 <oerjan> r reverses direction
05:17:56 <oerjan> iirc
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05:18:02 <shachaf> r multiplies delta by -1
05:18:05 <shachaf> So what oerjan said
05:18:08 <significance> ohh, gotcha
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05:18:29 <shachaf> (Note: I don't know anything about Befunge.)
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05:18:31 <oerjan> and now i remember that is indeed what befunge uses for errors
05:18:47 <significance> Wouldn't that send the control flow back to the comma?
05:18:51 <shachaf> oerjan: It seems pretty elegant, really.
05:20:09 <shachaf> I guess it would?
05:20:46 <significance> And then it would go back to the underscore, but if the stack's empty, doesn't the underscore send the control flow to the right?
05:20:50 <oerjan> i don't know what all the commands do there, so...
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05:21:21 <significance> no worries -- that sets me on the right track :)
05:21:23 <significance> thank you!
05:22:55 <oerjan> you're welcome
05:23:00 <shachaf> Is the stack empty?
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05:24:19 <shachaf> Oh, maybe I'm wrong.
05:24:28 <shachaf> http://www.quirkster.com/iano/js/befunge.html puts -1 on the stack at EOF
05:24:40 <shachaf> So I guess Befunge-93 does it differently from Funge-98
05:24:50 <shachaf> I told you you shouldn't listen to me.
05:25:07 <significance> shachaf: awesome, thank you!
05:25:14 <significance> I mean, I feel like I learned even more this way :)
05:26:36 <oerjan> wut
05:28:41 <oerjan> anyway ->
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06:01:57 <rdococ> Oerjan! Oerjan oerjan oerjan!
06:02:36 <rdococ> Øeıæŋ!
06:02:42 <rdococ> Øerıæŋ!*
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06:25:18 <rdococ> hppahppavillivillionon11
06:25:31 <rdococ> oh god
06:25:34 <rdococ> HP pavillion
06:25:43 <rdococ> it's the source of all evil
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06:54:04 <zzo38> Now I made up a mine sweeper game with JavaScript it is https://www.npmjs.com/package/shapemines
06:55:17 <zzo38> The included graphics are monochrome and are not the best quality, but they will do. You can provide better graphics if you can do it.
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07:04:24 <zzo38> Do you have the feature suggestion and/or complaint?
07:08:48 <shachaf> Yes: It's written in JavaScript, but I don't seem to be able to run it in my browser.
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07:09:56 <rdococ> It's node.js, I think
07:10:07 <rdococ> Ridiculous platform, really.
07:10:23 <rdococ> If you want something not run in a web browser, don't use JS.
07:12:25 <zzo38> Screenshot http://zzo38computer.org/img_1C/mines.png
07:13:12 <zzo38> rdococ: If you don't like JavaScript you can use other program language, but I think JavaScript is a OK scripting language
07:13:59 <rdococ> For a web browser.
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07:22:09 <zzo38> If you want to run this program on web browser then you would need to implement the SDLTERM API on top of the HTML API, and change the file I/O, and then it can work.
07:23:04 <zzo38> But, I am not going to change it for you.
07:24:15 <rdococ> That wasn't my point.
07:24:33 <rdococ> My point is, JS was designed as a web scripting language and it should stay that way.
07:25:01 <rdococ> Even if it wasn't, I...just don't like it anyway. Blargh.
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07:29:39 <zzo38> I meant as the reply to shachaf
07:29:56 <hppavilion1> rdococ: I'm not even a fan of JS in a browser, but it's the only option
07:31:34 <zzo38> No it isn't, in some cases you can just use HTML (it depend what you are making)
07:32:36 <shachaf> @time fizzie
07:32:38 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Thu Feb 23 07:32:37 2017
07:34:34 <rdococ> Not necessarily, hppavilion1.
07:34:54 <rdococ> Okay, for some things, yes.
07:34:54 <rdococ> But you have other options for quite a few things.
07:35:06 <rdococ> Flash, PHP, some kind of Microsoft version of PHP,
07:35:34 <hppavilion1> rdococ: PHP isn't an option in the browser, Flash is a crime against humanity
07:35:58 <rdococ> Isn't PHP all about the server?
07:36:10 <zzo38> I don't like Flash or PHP so much (and the browser won't execute PHP code anyways)
07:36:52 <shachaf> It will if you compile it to JavaScript.
07:36:57 <zzo38> Still, I have written PHP codes too before (but don't do so much anymore); even IRC client I now use I had written in PHP.
07:37:13 <shachaf> Or if you run an x86 CPU emulator, and run Linux on it, and run PHP for that architecture.
07:37:14 <rdococ> We should construct a new programming language that should serve as an alternative to JS.
07:37:30 <zzo38> (If I was redoing it today I may to write in JavaScript instead)
07:37:37 <rdococ> ew JS
07:38:07 <rdococ> what we need is something better
07:38:11 <rdococ> well duh but still
07:38:46 <zzo38> Yes there are a few problems, such as it doesn't have macros
07:41:07 <rdococ> I'm barely aware of what macros are tbh
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08:16:48 <zzo38> OpenGL will use normalized numbers for the colour of the pixel in textures, and I think this is what caused a problem I had with it because numbers such as 1/255 they don't store exactly in the floating point representation. (I worked around though, by adding .3 after multiplying by 255)
08:24:52 <rdococ> I had the idea of an esolang which used "yes" and "no" for "true" and "false"
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08:28:01 <zzo38> OK
08:28:07 <zzo38> See what you can make
08:31:21 <rdococ> yes
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08:37:56 <rdococ> hi
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10:56:54 <b_jonas> rdococ: "yes" and "no" for true and false: don't some configuration files already support that?
10:59:46 <fizzie> Yes, that's definitely a thing.
11:00:28 <fizzie> I think some do 1, "true", "yes" and "on" vs. 0, "false", "no", "off".
11:01:06 <fizzie> SSH does "yes" and "no" only for many parameters.
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11:21:22 <int-e> shachaf: I have a copy of The Witness, still unfinished.
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11:22:38 <int-e> (I got it as part of the Humble Freedom bundle, so fairly recently; since there's basically just one puzzle type, so far I think it isn't worth the retail price.)
11:26:26 <int-e> Basically, for a game that tries to be like Myst, it fails in terms of atmosphere, story, and variety of puzzles. The graphics are far more beautiful of course.
11:29:13 <int-e> speaking of which, Obduction fares better in user score and worse in reviews than The Witness on metacritic, what am I supposed to make of that?
11:29:40 <int-e> oh well, I'll be waiting for a 50% off deal.
11:30:26 <fizzie> I was so on the verge of getting the freedom bundle.
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11:37:50 <int-e> I'm thinking of it as a donation with free games, so there's nothing to regrett.
11:37:53 <int-e> -t
11:40:24 <int-e> The Swapper and Q.U.B.E. were quite enjoyable. The Stanley Parable is poison for obsessive people (perhaps I've missed an ending?)
11:44:37 <int-e> (I'm using walkthroughs as a cure for that particular disease.)
11:56:39 <b_jonas> You modern guys with your fancy games with multiple endings. Back in my days, you either saved the princess before GAME OVER or not, that's it. No variations.
12:01:05 <int-e> But that game has the best achievement I've seen in a game so far: "don't play $GAME for five years".
12:01:47 <int-e> (achievements, of course, are another kind of modern knick-knack that's poison for obsessive people)
12:02:34 <b_jonas> int-e: nice. does that require you to still have the same computer and files five years later?
12:03:39 <int-e> b_jonas: I *guess* you can get it by twiddling with the system clock.
12:04:38 <b_jonas> int-e: isn't that cheating and not very far from just hex-editing all the badges into the save file?
12:04:51 <b_jonas> I mean, what's the point?
12:05:34 <b_jonas> I'm all for meaningless badges, sure, but still
12:05:46 <b_jonas> `? potato
12:05:48 <HackEgo> potato? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:05:50 <b_jonas> `? potatoes
12:05:51 <HackEgo> You are not allowed to take potatoes to Norway without a special permit.
12:17:10 <rdococ> is that true?
12:24:03 <int-e> plausible
12:24:42 <int-e> (You can *plant* potatoes. So if, for example, you want to control genetically modified food, then you end up with rules like that.)
12:27:08 <rdococ> What if you take the germinating parts of GMO potatoes?
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12:36:44 <b_jonas> rdococ: yes, it's true. let me find the reference.
12:38:45 <b_jonas> rdococ: http://konzuliszolgalat.kormany.hu/europa-utazasi-tanacsok?norvegia says so, and it references http://www.toll.no/ where you can find http://www.toll.no/en/goods/food/regulations-for-meat-milk-cheese-and-other-foods/ which confirms the claim
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12:52:55 <int-e> b_jonas: the whole game is enough of a parody that "what's the point" is close to being the whole point of the game.
12:53:45 <int-e> all the endings, for example, just bring you back to the start of the game.
12:56:40 <b_jonas> isn't that normal for games? you complete the game, save the princess, and get back to the start of the game because there's no more content. or maybe you get a newgame-plus that differs a little, but you're still basically at the start, in the bottom of the dungeon with your tiny starting inventory and (only 2 extra lives or as a level 1 character).
12:57:10 <b_jonas> In some sandbox games, you may continue playing after you win, but there's not much additional content anyway.
13:15:16 <Taneb> Is it possible to get a coach to Finland
13:22:36 <int-e> hmm, "coach" is ambiguous in a funny way
13:26:06 <Taneb> I mean, cheap land-based transport
13:27:23 <Taneb> (From the UK, ideally)
13:27:39 <Taneb> You'd have to go one way or the other round the Baltic, which may present difficulties
13:40:33 <b_jonas> Taneb: from where?
13:42:17 <b_jonas> Taneb: from here (Hungary), Finland is too far, so taking any combination of train and bus there is so ridiculously expensive that it's almost always less practical than going by airplane or car most of the way (you may have to use a bus or train leg together with the airplane of course)
13:42:53 <b_jonas> If you go by car, then you might need to take a ferry to cross the sea at some point.
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15:00:46 <Taneb> b_jonas, from the UK
15:00:56 <Taneb> Domestically, coaches are often cheaper than plans
15:00:58 <Taneb> *planes
15:01:17 <Taneb> `finland
15:01:18 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: finland: not found
15:01:21 <Taneb> `? finland
15:01:22 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
15:01:58 <moony> yea, im very tempted to try and make Brainfuck in factorio. i have an idea on how to get it done and everything
15:03:04 <moony> using 2 mods: Recursive Blueprints, and Creative Mode (creative mode for infinite supplys) to allow the 'tape' to be extended infinitely, thus proving turing completeness in one fell swoop
15:03:29 <b_jonas> moony: if you do, then write about this on the esowiki
15:03:37 <moony> i will :p
15:04:47 <moony> also, factorio, with its immense extensibility and practically infinite world, can probably handle any other esolang in existance if you try hard enough using combinators (you get the following: + - / * > < = !=)
15:05:13 <moony> combinators themselves can be described as a esolang with a small amount of stretching :p
15:05:37 <Taneb> Hmm, does Vanilla Factorio have any genuinely renewable resources (beyond power)
15:06:04 <moony> Water, and thats it, Oil pools slowly lose efficiency until they eventually hit '0'
15:06:47 <moony> if you expand out far enough, you can always find MORE resources, but they are not infinite
15:07:12 <Taneb> Been a while since I've played
15:07:30 <moony> hence why i want the Creative Mpde mod if i try and make a infinite tape, because it has a special chest that can make infinite amounts of whatever item is in the first slot.
15:07:45 <moony> Taneb, It has much better multiplayer support (its no longer p2p multiplayer)
15:08:00 <moony> and it has a builtin server list, alongside a builtin mod list and mod browser
15:08:15 <Taneb> ...it definitely had servers back when I was playing it, because I was playing on a server, although it was a bit hacky
15:08:33 <moony> yea, its much less hacky in terms of multiplayer now
15:08:48 <moony> its centralised now, like any good game server
15:09:15 <moony> and 0.15 is going to have a change to the way that belts handle items to grant a huge FPS boost
15:09:44 <moony> (it now records what items are there and the distance between each one instead of their X and Y pos on the belt)
15:10:22 <moony> that halves the amount, and the distance rarely changes (only splitters, inserters, and other things that poke the belt's contents can chzange it)
15:10:48 <moony> s/amount/amount of memory used/
15:12:50 <moony> but yea, i've been tossing the concept of how brainfuck in factorio would work.
15:13:12 <moony> whats the smallest BF interp andwhats it's SRC?
15:14:21 <moony> if the SRC is in Assembly for some reason, thats better because ASM happens to be that much easier to translate to combinators
15:16:02 <moony> Taneb, you know any?
15:16:11 <Taneb> I don't, I'm afraid
15:16:23 <moony> damn
15:16:35 <moony> it will be that bit harder if i have to figure this out from scratch, but eh :p
15:16:39 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_implementations has a big list
15:17:42 <b_jonas> moony: I hear a lot of people play factorio, so you might find all sorts of practical hints about it on various places over the internet. you needn't figure out everything yourself
15:18:18 <moony> true, i know that :p
15:18:29 <moony> there is a 200p discord for it. (Which im in)
15:19:11 <b_jonas> 200p as in 200 people joined?
15:19:15 <moony> mhm
15:23:54 <moony> after this im going to try something diffrent.. maybe a assembly -> factorio compiler for the heck of it? :P
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15:33:16 <moony> damn, i have been corrected, factorio has a hardcoded limit of 2 million x 2 million
15:33:19 <moony> tiles
15:33:53 <moony> tho, like everything else, a little modding can get around that :P
15:34:02 <moony> the real limit once you have modded away at it is the CPU
15:34:25 <moony> besides, no computer could handle a 2m x 2m factorio map. not even a supercomputer (game's singlethreaded)
15:34:59 <moony> who cares :p
15:35:21 <moony> i'll build a brainfuck interp and point out how close factorio it is to TC (thanks to the damn hardcoded map limit)
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15:35:45 <moony> b_jonas, i need halp
15:35:56 <moony> i have been proven sorely wrong
15:35:59 <moony> cri
15:36:20 <b_jonas> moony: go on?
15:36:44 <moony> like i said, factorio devs apparently hardcoded in a limit that no-one could reach, but still breaks TC, why'd they even bother? :P
15:37:24 <moony> no-one would ever reach that hardcoded limit, as the game only generates map as it needs to (when it enters the player's 'view')
15:38:57 <moony> and if they somehow did, the game would be at a fair bit less than one FPS
15:46:45 <Taneb> moony, I had an idea a while back for a Minsky machine in Minecraft
15:47:13 <Taneb> Using slime blocks and a series of flying machines, with the players riding some relevant ones
15:48:01 <moony> neat
15:48:31 <b_jonas> moony: the limit is probably still useful to mitigate the effects of bugs that accidentally put very high coordinates to some data structure
15:48:39 <b_jonas> bugs in the game implementation that is
15:48:44 <moony> yea, possibly
15:48:55 <b_jonas> perhaps also bugs in mods
15:49:24 <moony> mods are written in lua, and are limited by the engine. (i know of no mods that add to the game directly)
15:50:42 <b_jonas> eh so? those mods could still have bugs if they ever handle coordinates.
15:51:23 <rdococ> er
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15:53:31 <moony> true that
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16:41:47 <shachaf> int-e: How far into the game did you go?
16:42:36 <shachaf> I've been playing it and it's quite good in ways that aren't immediately obvious.
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16:43:22 <int-e> I got one beam to the top of the mountain, and I visited the top of the mountain.
16:43:49 <int-e> so it feels like maybe 20% done
16:43:57 <shachaf> It's true that every puzzle involves drawing a line, more or less.
16:44:49 <int-e> yeah, I've encountered a few not-so-obvious twists
16:45:02 <int-e> and one very annoying one (garden mazes)
16:45:25 * int-e hates it when games require taking notes
16:45:25 <shachaf> Oh, you activated the castle laser?
16:45:37 <int-e> no, that's not the one I activated
16:46:11 <int-e> (well, not exactly hate... but I've grown accustomd to games that don't)
16:46:17 <shachaf> fizzie: did you notice your bug was fixed hth
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16:47:03 <shachaf> You can press Print Screen to save a screenshot into the screenshot directory, by the way.
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16:47:12 <fizzie> shachaf: Yeah, I think you've just caused me to accidentally close *so many* shells.
16:47:32 <fizzie> I've trained myself to automatically do the ^d^d when sprungeing stuff.
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16:47:54 <fizzie> If curl starts obeying the first ^d, the second will go to bash.
16:48:23 <shachaf> There's no pleasing some people.
16:48:29 <int-e> the solution is obvious, start a new interactive bash for the curl command
16:50:21 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/1172/
16:53:28 <oerjan> . o O ( that xkcd is basically why i keep using IE... )
16:58:05 <rdococ> bananaa.
16:58:45 <rdococ> Lol...
16:58:49 <rdococ> wait you still use IE?
16:58:54 <rdococ> I fear for oerjan's sanity.
17:00:45 <oerjan> my insanity has never been in question.
17:01:07 <oerjan> (ok, not in this decade)
17:01:53 <shachaf> Oh, there's a sha1 collision.
17:01:56 <shachaf> It's about time.
17:02:09 <oerjan> . o O ( how many casualties )
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17:03:13 <shachaf> fizzie: I was going to ask you if the rumors were legitimate but I guess they were.
17:04:45 <oerjan> <rdococ> Oerjan! Oerjan oerjan oerjan! <-- also, *someone* seems a little bit obsessed.
17:04:57 <rdococ> It's one of my greetings now.
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17:05:02 <oerjan> O KAY
17:05:13 <rdococ> oerjan, oerjan oerjan!
17:05:32 <shachaf> oerjan: you seem to think everyone is obsessed with you
17:06:35 <oerjan> shachaf: just because i'm paranoid etc.
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17:10:11 <oerjan> <rdococ> It's node.js, I think <-- . o O ( clearly nodeJS needs a browser backend )
17:10:22 <oerjan> oops
17:10:40 <oerjan> it's hard to be consistent when you can only see half the line you're typing.
17:11:07 <oerjan> i guess this is one downside to 80 columns in irssi.
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17:12:17 <oerjan> i guess e had nothing significant to say
17:13:22 <shachaf> signific, ants
17:13:35 <shachaf> significance, ants
17:13:56 <moony> . o 0 ( Time -> Factorio )
17:15:19 <fizzie> shachaf: Which rumours?
17:15:26 <oerjan> . o O ( hm can irssi support two rows for the input? )
17:15:59 <oerjan> or even better, resizing up to a limit
17:16:50 <oerjan> i guess that could be annoying when browsing history
17:17:24 <shachaf> fizzie: That Google would announce a thing today.
17:17:48 <oerjan> there seem to be no irssi options with "input" or "row" in them
17:17:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: you can try asking on #irssi
17:18:10 <oerjan> shachaf: wait, i thought you were still talking abou<rdococ> It's node.js, I think
17:18:20 <oerjan> argh stupid touchpad
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17:18:38 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, sorry, on #irssi on IRCNet
17:18:57 <fizzie> shachaf: Oh, did we announce something today?
17:19:11 <b_jonas> announce what? moon base again?
17:19:23 <oerjan> shachaf: wait, i thought you were still talking about sha1
17:20:05 <shachaf> I was.
17:20:33 <oerjan> ah.
17:20:39 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't hear about that.
17:20:43 <shachaf> Oh.
17:20:54 <int-e> oerjan: you're in luck, the feature has already been proposed on the bugtracker: http://bugs.irssi.org/index.php?do=details&task_id=372 *veg*
17:21:06 <oerjan> "veg"?
17:21:11 <int-e> very evil grin
17:21:23 <b_jonas> `learn d00bbe65d80f6d53d5c15da7c6b4f0a655c5a86a is the first checksum for which a collision in SHA-1 was found.
17:21:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'd00bbe65d80f6d53d5c15da7c6b4f0a655c5a86a': d00bbe65d80f6d53d5c15da7c6b4f0a655c5a86a is the first checksum for which a collision in SHA-1 was found.
17:21:34 <b_jonas> nah, that's stupid
17:22:12 <shachaf> I don't think it's necessary as a wisdom entry.
17:22:20 <b_jonas> ``` rm -v wisdom/d00bbe65d80f6d53d5c15da7c*
17:22:23 <HackEgo> removed `wisdom/d00bbe65d80f6d53d5c15da7c6b4f0a655c5a86a'
17:22:25 <oerjan> int-e: that's not what i meant, anyway. i meant wrapping the line over more than one line when it's long.
17:22:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: yeah, it's stupid
17:22:42 <b_jonas> if they can find one collision, then they can find many other collisions too
17:22:50 <int-e> oerjan: I'm pretty sure that's what they mean
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17:23:02 <b_jonas> there's nothing special about the first one
17:24:05 <oerjan> int-e: ok right, the comments seem to imply something else.
17:24:14 <oerjan> (and much more evil)
17:24:54 <b_jonas> wait, so are they announcing a moon base today or not?
17:25:13 <int-e> oerjan: true. I guess "multiline" prompt has two reasonable interpretations...
17:25:29 <int-e> oerjan: but given the history of that report I wouldn't worry about those semantics too much.
17:26:21 <oerjan> int-e: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:26:52 <b_jonas> a multiline prompt isn't so easy to implement, I think
17:28:21 <oerjan> b_jonas: clearly their moon base is where they did all the sha-1 brute forcing hth
17:29:09 <oerjan> . o O ( don't mind that growing spot you see on the moon, it's just computronium )
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17:35:49 <shachaf> "Now, researchers have demonstrated a similar type of real-world attack against SHA1, which ironically was widely adopted after the insecurity of MD5 became well-known."
17:35:53 <shachaf> What is the irony here?
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17:38:11 <pikhq> People started leaping to SHA-1 at about the time attacks on SHA-1 began to seem plausible.
17:39:19 <pikhq> Note that in *2008* CAs still used MD5.
17:42:50 <pikhq> Honestly, it's actually rather promising that some rather important things (the CA ecosystem) abandoned SHA-1 before this.
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17:50:03 <oerjan> <int-e> b_jonas: I *guess* you can get it by twiddling with the system clock. <-- hm is there a system for digitally signed times...
17:51:23 <int-e> oerjan: that seems closely related to the time-locked messages discussion we had... last week, I guess?
17:51:33 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_timestamping exists
17:51:37 <int-e> it's easy if you have trusted parties
17:51:59 <oerjan> int-e: i don't remember that discussion...
17:52:31 <int-e> basically impossible without though you can get there to some extend based on computationally expensive tasks
17:53:02 <oerjan> well in this case i assume the game creator would decide who to trust...
17:53:24 <int-e> pick *me*!
17:53:44 <oerjan> excellent choice
17:53:51 <oerjan> @time
17:53:55 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Thu Feb 23 18:53:51 2017
17:54:06 <oerjan> lambdabot: no no, i'm not to be trusted
17:54:08 <oerjan> @time int-e
17:54:09 <lambdabot> Local time for int-e is Thu Feb 23 18:54:07 2017
17:54:34 <int-e> oerjan: you came astonishingly close though
17:55:55 <oerjan> obviously too much latency
17:56:06 <int-e> Oh, instead of trusted parties you could shoot physical objects into space and wait until they return
17:57:21 <oerjan> . o O ( trusted parties don't like being shot into space, i think )
17:59:11 <int-e> Maybe blink a cryptographically signed message at Alpha Centauri b and wait for its reflection... there may be some implementation challenges to overcome first.
17:59:42 <oerjan> _may be_
18:00:07 <int-e> But it should be good for a very secure 8.5 year delay.
18:00:57 <int-e> I'm of course inspired by https://what-if.xkcd.com/13/
18:00:57 <oerjan> it seems susceptible to a space-probe-in-the-middle attack
18:01:21 <int-e> oerjan: sure, but you'd have to be proactive to get it there :P
18:02:07 <oerjan> you depend on your adversary not being proactive? that's security by obscurity!
18:03:01 <int-e> I'm all for obscurity. Otherwise why would I be *here*?
18:03:51 <shachaf> adversity by obversity
18:04:07 <oerjan> @wn obversity
18:04:08 <lambdabot> No match for "obversity".
18:04:16 <shachaf> @wn obverse
18:04:18 <lambdabot> *** "obverse" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
18:04:18 <lambdabot> obverse
18:04:18 <lambdabot> n 1: the more conspicuous of two alternatives or cases or sides;
18:04:18 <lambdabot> "the obverse of this issue"
18:04:18 <lambdabot> 2: the side of a coin or medal bearing the principal stamp or
18:04:20 <lambdabot> design [ant: {reverse}, {verso}]
18:04:50 <oerjan> OKAY
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19:58:18 <\oren\> Is it true that for every real number there's a series of rational nubmers that converges to it?
19:58:34 <\oren\> I seem to recall that being true
19:58:37 <shachaf> Yes.
20:00:19 <fizzie> `frink 100 mph -> m/s
20:00:24 <HackEgo> 5588/125 (exactly 44.704)
20:00:29 <fizzie> Those are some crazy ass-winds.
20:01:32 <\oren\> hwere?
20:01:47 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: reboot?).
20:01:49 <fizzie> "Storm Doris: Live updates as 100mph winds cause travel disruption across the country"
20:01:56 <fizzie> Somewhere around here.
20:02:05 <fizzie> I don't think it's so bad right here in London.
20:03:20 <\oren\> around here it's ridiculously warm for a february day
20:03:38 -!- int-e has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:03:41 <fizzie> We had one of those on Monday.
20:03:44 <fizzie> +18 degrees.
20:04:17 -!- int-e has joined.
20:04:24 <\oren\> the Cythereforming of Earth continues
20:07:03 -!- lambdabot has joined.
20:07:21 <\oren\> unfortunately that doesn't seem to be a real word
20:08:03 <\oren\> cytheraforming?
20:08:06 <erkin> It's a nonce word now.
20:10:02 <\oren\> it SHOULD mean "changing the climate of a planet to more resemble Venus"
20:11:42 <\oren\> cythera- being the scientific prefix for Venus (because Venerean is too close to Venereal and Aphrodisial is too close to Aphrodisiac)
20:12:54 <\oren\> so for example to go to Venus you perform a "Trans-Cytherean Ejection"
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20:45:14 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you use -F 'field=<-' that often?
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22:06:26 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm guessing about once a week, maybe a little bit more.
22:06:46 <fizzie> shachaf: It's the canonical solution here: http://sprunge.us/
22:06:47 <shachaf> For what?
22:06:51 <shachaf> Ah.
22:06:59 <shachaf> Right.
22:07:15 <shachaf> you should make sprunge.us accept grpc hth
22:07:22 <fizzie> It works fine for pasting the output of a command, but I often copy-paste to get "$ command line" part in as well.
22:08:00 <fizzie> I might be okay by doing a "sprunge-it foo bar baz" wrapper that'd do (echo '$ foo bar baz'; foo bar baz) | sprunge.
22:08:07 <fizzie> Except then I'd need to remember to use that.
22:08:34 <shachaf> It also wouldn't use your non-exported variables and other shell things.
22:08:50 <fizzie> That's a-true too.
22:09:35 <shachaf> You didn't like CapnProto because it made you feel bad for protobuf, right?
22:09:41 <fizzie> Yes.
22:09:54 <fizzie> (A very non-rational reason.)
22:10:27 <shachaf> Do you like how it stores things xored against the default value so that zeros always correspond to the default value?
22:10:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure I care about non-zero default values sufficiently much to feel too excited about that.
22:11:23 <shachaf> Do you like this?
22:11:36 <fizzie> I think proto3 removed non-zero default values entirely, right?
22:11:49 <fizzie> At least https://developers.google.com/protocol-buffers/docs/proto3#default sounds like that.
22:12:23 <shachaf> fizzie: Maybe you can feel better knowing that sandstorm.io went out of business.
22:13:22 <fizzie> No, I think now I just feel bad for them.
22:14:01 <fizzie> Does the etymology of sandstorm.io have anything to do with Darude's Sandstorm?
22:15:46 <shachaf> I don't know.
22:16:31 <shachaf> Darude is a famous Finnish musician, I suppose.
22:16:45 <shachaf> Like Sibelius.
22:17:08 <fizzie> Yes, just like that.
22:17:58 <shachaf> The other day in our confidential communication you said something like "like this, just like that".
22:20:35 <fizzie> Plausible. I don't remember what I may or may not have said.
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22:43:36 <zzo38> The normal mine sweeper game with a uniform square grid with king's adjacency, but I also made up other modes too, such as: knight's adjacency, board wrapping, grid with holes in it, grid with some cells are bigger than the other one, game that orthogonal adjacencies count double, etc.
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23:16:35 <Taneb> What about grids that are the surface of a Klein bottle
23:16:51 <Taneb> Or in hyperbolic space
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23:25:59 <shachaf> Taneb: what about them
23:26:22 <Taneb> They might be fun to sweep mines in
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23:39:48 <zzo38> OK can you explain how to do that?
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