←2017-03-02 2017-03-03 2017-03-04→ ↑2017 ↑all
00:07:27 <fizzie> shachaf: The other looks like an ℇ.
00:11:37 <oerjan> `icode ℇ
00:11:37 <HackEgo> ​[U+2107 EULER CONSTANT]
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00:22:08 <quintopia> nice clock ya got there ppcg
00:22:30 <quintopia> no way its not getting the bounty
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01:56:00 <oerjan> hily
01:56:24 * oerjan still golfing :/
01:57:43 <boily> hell§rjan!
01:58:03 <boily> the more you golf, the less you.
01:58:56 * oerjan vani
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02:00:46 * boily wraps fungot in a Norwegian flag an uses him as an oerjan ersatz
02:00:46 <fungot> boily: that's awesome. i don't even understand what's there
02:00:52 <boily> :D
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02:01:09 <oerjan> not even fungot understands me.
02:01:10 <fungot> oerjan: ( don't tell it to scan a slide at 1200dpi, a helpful message pops up that for slides it's better to do
02:05:38 <Jafet> `? golf
02:05:39 <HackEgo> Golf is the shortest game known. The goal is to get a ball into a hole with a single stroke.
02:07:25 <oerjan> Jafet: i note that the second kind of Trajedy transform can actually expand lengths (without ?). are you sure these aren't invertible if used only on say x<1/2 ?
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02:12:50 <oerjan> e.g. if c==0 and b>a
02:13:00 <Jafet> yes I'm very sure, I tried inverting that for, like, five minutes
02:15:00 <Jafet> hmm, I was trying to extend the path using mirrors
02:16:04 <oerjan> oh, that could also work...
02:16:36 <oerjan> Jafet: note that what i'm saying is, you only need it to be invertible on a small subset of the domain/range
02:16:50 <oerjan> (well, implying)
02:17:07 <oerjan> because there's no reason you need to use the whole (0,1) interval.
02:17:43 <oerjan> mirrors _should_ work for that.
02:18:49 <oerjan> in fact, you don't even need that restriction, because you can put the mirror somewhere close to the beacon so that the "beam" has been compressed there.
02:19:18 <oerjan> (the target beacon)
02:19:37 <Jafet> or use a sheet of mirrors to catch everything
02:19:49 <oerjan> well, then you get gaps.
02:20:07 <oerjan> which i guess you can handle in a different way.
02:20:12 <Jafet> I haven't worked out what happens to the offset, though
02:20:30 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure you can add whatever offset you want?
02:21:40 <oerjan> when i thought about this a while ago, i found it convenient to think of a mirror not as changing the path, but as leading you into the mirror universe
02:22:05 <oerjan> like a portal
02:23:39 <Jafet> that does sound convenient
02:24:29 <Jafet> wait, is the mirror universe flipped perpendicularly to the mirror?
02:24:39 <oerjan> yeah
02:25:34 <oerjan> or wait
02:26:46 <oerjan> things are exactly where they'd look like they were if you look into a mirror.
02:28:41 <oerjan> B\
02:28:43 <oerjan> B
02:28:56 <oerjan> hm no, that's not right
02:28:57 <Jafet> trying to visualise this is causing my brain to flip instead
02:29:38 <oerjan> B\
02:29:41 <oerjan> B
02:30:43 <oerjan> and the mirror universe is, hm
02:31:01 <oerjan> B
02:31:05 <oerjan> \
02:31:35 <oerjan>
02:31:44 <oerjan> B
02:32:44 <oerjan> well, it should be the transposed grid.
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02:34:36 <Jafet> oh, I see
02:34:41 <oerjan> i think i'm thinking wrong, somehow.
02:35:02 <Jafet> well, it doesn't seem that convenient to me
02:35:19 <Jafet> it's just flipping the coordinates?
02:35:37 <oerjan> well it means you can draw them on top of each other, keeping the paths straight
02:36:56 <oerjan> unfortunately i have nothing very good to draw with...
02:37:42 * oerjan uses vim
02:43:00 <Jafet> going back to the c=0 idea, if x=p/q then x becomes bp/(aq+p) mod 1
02:43:14 <Jafet> I didn't try to use this device because it looked more complicated
02:47:32 <oerjan> ah i think i've got it
02:47:35 <oerjan> B
02:47:35 <oerjan> \.......C
02:47:35 <oerjan> ........D
02:47:35 <oerjan> .B
02:48:10 <oerjan> constructed from
02:48:12 <oerjan> B\?
02:48:12 <oerjan> ...B.....C
02:48:12 <oerjan> .........D
02:48:24 <oerjan> er ignore the mirror in the last one
02:49:55 <oerjan> i _put_ a mirror there, then flip the Bs around it
02:51:14 <oerjan> and then the ? is unnecessary because the second B gets left behind as you enter the "mirror universe".
02:51:52 <oerjan> gah connection seems flaky
02:52:12 <Jafet> sorry, was trying it out
02:53:04 <oerjan> did it work?
02:53:23 <Jafet> looks like it works
02:53:26 <oerjan> yay
02:53:32 <Jafet> thoerjan
02:53:39 <oerjan> yw
02:54:08 <Jafet> I'll try to update the example code
02:54:31 <oerjan> i think Trajedy probably has all the power of a pushdown automaton, but i also have great doubts about TC-ness.
02:54:45 <Jafet> there's also the ? used to merge multiple paths, which I didn't mention, but there should also be a workaround for that
02:55:24 <oerjan> it feels like in some sense it _shouldn't_ be possible to extract data compressed into it in this way in any substantially different order than FIFO.
02:56:28 <Jafet> doesn't the same limitation apply to befunge?
02:57:09 <Jafet> the wiki page only lists fifo stack commands
02:57:28 <\oren\> updated my font
02:57:44 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDPTmCWKZ4
02:58:00 <oerjan> quite possibly, i don't think befunge is TC with limited cell size and no extensions.
02:58:17 <oerjan> unless there's some way to access bottom of stack or the like.
02:58:27 <Jafet> oh nevermind, it has unbounded integers
02:58:37 <\oren\> ᖎᖏᖐᖑᖒᖓᖔᖕᖖᖠᖡᖢᖣᖤᖥᖦ桂 are the characters I added
02:58:39 <Jafet> (or I guess some implementations do)
02:58:47 <fizzie> Very few do.
02:58:54 <\oren\> support for Inuktitut should now be complete
02:59:13 <fizzie> oerjan: '98 has that stack of stacks, and has some manipulation commands that might be relevant.
03:00:04 <fizzie> oerjan: In particular, you can move elements both directions between top-of-stack-stack and second-of-stack-stack, which might make a workable tape.
03:00:29 <oerjan> ah.
03:00:31 <fizzie> "The u "Stack under Stack" instruction pops a count and transfers that many cells from the SOSS to the TOSS. It transfers these cells in a pop-push loop. In other words, the order is not preserved during transfer, it is reversed. If count is negative, |count| cells are transferred (similarly in a pop-push loop) from the TOSS to the SOSS."
03:01:11 <\oren\> b_jonas: 桂 is now in
03:01:47 <oerjan> i'm sure some people in this community must have discussed this previously. in fact the stack stack thing rings a vague bell.
03:02:12 <fizzie> (Befunge-93 is I guess uncontroversially sub-TC.)
03:06:53 <fizzie> Since there's implicit infinite 0s at the bottom of every stack, I think you can do a trivial brainfuck (infinite on both ends) to Funge-98 translation with some setup code, +- to "1+" and "1-", <> to "1u" and "01-u", ., to ,~ and [] to ":!#v_" and ":#v_" with suitably placed >s and <s on all the other rows.
03:09:54 <b_jonas> \oren\: good, thanks. TODO self: check if all other characters used for Shogi move abbreviated notation are already in
03:15:01 <\oren\> this song has such cheezie lyrics
03:16:27 <Jafet> maybe I should learn vim for programming in this language, as emacs removes trailing whitespace
03:17:26 <\oren\> or you could use nano
03:18:01 <\oren\> also that is totally ass of emacs
03:18:02 <Jafet> does nano have whitespace-mode for showing the trailing spaces?
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03:18:58 <\oren\> Jafet: you'd need to make your syntax highlighting scheme do that
03:19:11 <\oren\> but that's relatively simple
03:19:45 <\oren\> the default highlighting for C makes trailing space green
03:21:03 <Jafet> well, the emacs behaviour is sensible for every other language, so I don't fault it
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03:26:55 <Jafet> heh, there is an alternative way to merge multiple streams, which also relies on the 2× magnification
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03:36:10 <Jafet> also, unicode seems to be missing left-then-down (and left-then-up) arrows
03:36:58 <Jafet> the other six combinations are U+21B0 to U+21B5, but these two are absent
03:39:01 <zzo38> Do other characters sets have such arrows? If so, which one?
03:41:07 <Jafet> it's just odd that there are logically eight possible corner arrows, but only six are in the Arrows block
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03:45:54 <Jafet> oh, they are at 2B10-2B11
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03:47:10 <\oren\> ⤴⤵⤶⤷
03:47:27 <\oren\> ↰↱↲↳↴
03:48:30 <\oren\> wait. why did I draw some of those curved and some cornered
03:48:52 <\oren\> `unicode ⤴⤵⤶⤷
03:48:54 <HackEgo> U+2934 ARROW POINTING RIGHTWARDS THEN CURVING UPWARDS \ UTF-8: e2 a4 b4 UTF-16BE: 2934 Decimal: &#10548; \ ⤴ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2935 ARROW POINTING RIGHTWARDS THEN CURVING DOWNWARDS \ UTF-8: e2 a4 b5 UTF-16BE: 2935 Decimal: &#10549; \ ⤵ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \
03:49:09 <\oren\> `unicode ↰↱↲↳
03:49:10 <HackEgo> U+21B0 UPWARDS ARROW WITH TIP LEFTWARDS \ UTF-8: e2 86 b0 UTF-16BE: 21b0 Decimal: &#8624; \ ↰ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+21B1 UPWARDS ARROW WITH TIP RIGHTWARDS \ UTF-8: e2 86 b1 UTF-16BE: 21b1 Decimal: &#8625; \ ↱ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+21B2 DOWNWARDS ARROW WI
03:49:30 <\oren\> `unicode CURVING
03:49:31 <HackEgo> U+2934 ARROW POINTING RIGHTWARDS THEN CURVING UPWARDS \ UTF-8: e2 a4 b4 UTF-16BE: 2934 Decimal: &#10548; \ ⤴ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2935 ARROW POINTING RIGHTWARDS THEN CURVING DOWNWARDS \ UTF-8: e2 a4 b5 UTF-16BE: 2935 Decimal: &#10549; \ ⤵ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \
03:50:00 <\oren\> `` unicode CURVING | grep U+
03:50:25 <\oren\> Jafet: looks like there are only 4 curved arrows
03:52:03 <Jafet> > text $ "\x2B10\x2B11" ++ ['\x21B0'..'\x21B5']
03:52:08 <lambdabot> ⬐⬑↰↱↲↳↴↵
03:52:44 <\oren\> those are the ones I drew with corners and not curves
03:53:48 <\oren\> > text $ ['\x2BA0'..'\x2BA7']
03:53:51 <lambdabot> ⮠⮡⮢⮣⮤⮥⮦⮧
03:54:03 <\oren\> I havent drawn those?! what a disgrace
03:55:07 <Jafet> neither has this font, at any rate
03:55:27 <\oren\> `unicode 2BA0
03:55:27 <HackEgo> ​⮠
03:55:37 <oerjan> i can see them!
03:55:48 <\oren\> `unicode ⮠
03:55:49 <HackEgo> U+2BA0 DOWNWARDS TRIANGLE-HEADED ARROW WITH LONG TIP LEFTWARDS \ UTF-8: e2 ae a0 UTF-16BE: 2ba0 Decimal: &#11168; \ ⮠ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
03:55:51 <Jafet> oddly, ↲ and ↵ are similar, but none of the others are
03:56:14 <\oren\> hmm...
03:56:20 <oerjan> well, the ones \oren\ texted.
03:56:21 <Jafet> so one is still missing (RIGHTWARDS THEN … UPWARDS, as it turns out)
03:57:03 <Jafet> `unicode 2B0F
03:57:04 <HackEgo> ​⬏
03:57:05 <\oren\> but we for some reason hav ↯
03:57:19 <\oren\> Jafet: I have that
03:58:17 <\oren\> ...but it isnt in my font demo. odd
03:58:44 <\oren\> `unicode ⬎⬏⬐⬑
03:58:45 <HackEgo> U+2B0E RIGHTWARDS ARROW WITH TIP DOWNWARDS \ UTF-8: e2 ac 8e UTF-16BE: 2b0e Decimal: &#11022; \ ⬎ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2B0F RIGHTWARDS ARROW WITH TIP UPWARDS \ UTF-8: e2 ac 8f UTF-16BE: 2b0f Decimal: &#11023; \ ⬏ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2B10 LEFTWARDS ARR
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04:47:25 <zzo38> This is the fragment program I made up to work like a PC text mode: http://sprunge.us/ePXg
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05:29:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Jafetish * uploaded "[[File:Trajedy - magnify with skip.png]]"
05:29:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Jafetish * uploaded "[[File:Trajedy - magnify with mirror.png]]"
05:31:13 <zzo38> I think V8 JavaScript has a problem; %TypedArray%.length is zero, even though it is supposed to be three.
05:44:14 <shachaf> What is %TypedArray%?
05:48:33 <zzo38> It is an object which is not directly exposed in a global variable, but you can write Object.getPrototypeOf(Int8Array.prototype).constructor in order to get that object. (That object is also a function, although calling it is an error.)
05:50:13 <shachaf> Why is it supposed to be three?
05:50:25 <zzo38> The specification says it is supposed to be three.
05:51:39 <zzo38> (I am not sure why that is necessary; it can't be called, so there shouldn't be much point in it having any value at all, but that is what it is.)
05:52:34 <shachaf> Where?
05:53:08 <shachaf> Oh, right, I remember this.
05:53:47 <shachaf> You talked about it before.
05:56:08 <zzo38> I found that V8 and Mozilla both give errors, but the error message is different. Mozilla gives "%TypedArray% calling/constructing not implemented yet" (as if they would ever implement it; it is not clear what it would do if it was implemented), while V8 gives "Abstract class TypedArray not directly constructable".
05:58:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Jafetish * uploaded "[[File:Trajedy - merge device.png]]"
06:07:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Trajedy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51164&oldid=51160 * Jafetish * (+1630) add mirror magnification device by [[User:Oerjan]]
06:09:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Trajedy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51165&oldid=51164 * Jafetish * (+1) /* Memory */ fix link
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06:21:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Jafetish * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Trajedy - merge device.png]]": previous version was mislabeled
06:29:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Trajedy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51167&oldid=51165 * Jafetish * (+99) author and pronunciation in lead
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07:34:07 <Jafet> the wiki really needs a category for languages like http://esolangs.org/wiki/CUTLASS
07:34:14 <Jafet> (and BANCStar, of course)
07:36:14 <oerjan> Enterprise languages
07:42:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CUTLASS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51168&oldid=47041 * Jafetish * (-11) move to new category, [[Category:Enterprise languages]]
07:42:58 <oerjan> Jafet: um, see Esolang:Policy
07:43:41 <Jafet> oh
07:44:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CUTLASS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51169&oldid=51168 * Jafetish * (+11) Undo revision 51168 by [[Special:Contributions/Jafetish|Jafetish]] ([[User talk:Jafetish|talk]])
07:46:35 <Jafet> also, has anyone checked whether this CUTLASS language is actually esoteric
07:47:42 <oerjan> probably
07:49:37 <Jafet> well we can't remove the article, as wikipedia links to it
07:51:11 <oerjan> fiendish
07:52:46 <Jafet> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3590557_The_role_of_CUTLASS_in_software_reliability
07:52:50 <Jafet> “Conference Paper · November 1989 with 3 Reads”
07:53:09 <Jafet> it's obscure, at least
07:54:10 <oerjan> anyway
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08:01:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CUTLASS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51170&oldid=51169 * Jafetish * (+168) add acronym expansion
08:03:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51171&oldid=47243 * Jafetish * (+254) /* Enterprise languages */ new section
08:09:29 <\oren\> Why the fuck do my ukrainian generals have names like Lucas Brown
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08:10:07 <Jafet> englishmen following the example of eugene of savoy
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11:38:33 <boily> `wisdom
11:38:35 <HackEgo> fish//Come and dance and love the fish! Mister Disco summoned it.
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14:00:03 <int-e> shachaf: what do you think when seeing this picture, https://neusprech.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/img_1255-e1478263773140-768x447.jpg
14:34:07 <int-e> shachaf: regarding your other question, I think I had even missed the door on the ship wreck. I left it unsolved.
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15:36:57 * Zarutian is thinking about funding a country and callign it Anonymous Proxy just to confuse people
15:45:23 <Jafet> @tell oerjan trajedy isn't just a pushdown automaton, it can also simulate 3D printers: https://imgur.com/a/SntRM
15:45:23 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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16:09:51 <b_jonas> I'm trying to understand some older obfuscated program I wrote, because I want to modify it, but have it still look nice.
16:10:11 <b_jonas> I have to re-understand how it works, which is hard, because it's obfuscated.
16:13:33 <rdococ> how about a language that experiences issues with relativity?
16:14:04 <rdococ> one thread thinks x changed to 3 at the same time as y changing to 5, but the other thread disagrees :p
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16:31:10 <Jafet> i.e. every multi-core CPU since the last decade
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17:00:12 <ais523> I vaguely remember that Java 8 was controversial, but I can't remember why
17:00:28 <ais523> now the issue's come up at work and I'm having trouble wording a web search to find out why
17:00:30 <ais523> anyone have ideas?
17:01:06 <b_jonas> ais523: sorry, I don't follow Java
17:01:12 <ais523> fair enough
17:01:27 <ais523> meanwhile I'm considering getting my new esolang (actually, esolang family) up on Esolang
17:01:34 <b_jonas> good
17:01:35 <ais523> now I've worked out the right level of abstraction to present it at
17:01:58 <ais523> I've kind-of sort-of proved it TC in my head? the problem is it has an annoying tendency to be reversible, which means that the usual translations don't work
17:02:10 <ais523> because you need to figure out where the bitbucket comes from
17:02:10 <b_jonas> I'm currently trying to modify an older esoteric program I have, to add new functionality but still keep it nice
17:02:18 <b_jonas> like, nicely obfuscated
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17:02:26 <b_jonas> it would be easy to add the new function non-obfuscated
17:02:43 <b_jonas> but I think I can hide the new functionality in the existing obfu code so it doesn't disrupt the beauty
17:02:47 <ais523> is the program meant to be obfuscated?
17:02:50 <b_jonas> yes
17:02:52 <b_jonas> this one is
17:02:55 <ais523> also, is it written in an esolang, or is it obfuscated in other ways?
17:03:01 <b_jonas> I want to submit the result to Golf SE
17:03:05 <b_jonas> no, it's written in perl
17:03:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51172&oldid=51088 * Ais523 * (+16) /* C */ +[[Chaingate]]
17:03:57 <ais523> just editing in a link so that I can create the article and it won't be orphaned
17:07:31 <pixels> is there a language list of languages that aren't effectively "brainfuck, but"
17:08:02 <b_jonas> pixels: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Brainfuck_derivatives ?
17:09:01 <pixels> what is the opposite of that list? (list of all languages not on that list)
17:10:01 <b_jonas> pixels: I don't think we have one prepared directly
17:11:07 <fizzie> ais523: I think the lambdas were a little controversial.
17:11:15 <pixels> ah, ok
17:11:30 <ais523> to be fair, a list of brainfuck-unrelated languages might be useful
17:11:40 <ais523> however brainfuck derivatives are less than half the wiki, IIRC
17:11:48 <ais523> despite what you might think looking at it
17:12:20 <pixels> yeah clicking random page only gives me one every now and then
17:14:33 <ais523> I just noticed [[Category:Reversible computing]] is missing from the categorisation page
17:14:38 <ais523> we should make sure that thing's up to date
17:15:08 <ais523> also, wow, Chaingate has ten different categories, plus an eleventh that doesn't exist yet but might be worth suggesting
17:22:00 <b_jonas> if anyone can figure out what the right year number category is for MMIX, feel free to edit it
17:22:17 <b_jonas> it wasn't made instantly, and I'm not sure what year counts as its birth
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17:29:54 <ais523> b_jonas: first time a specification was available to the public, even if it's a specification of an older version
17:32:42 <ais523> `unicode ANGLE BRACKET
17:32:44 <HackEgo> U+2329 LEFT-POINTING ANGLE BRACKET \ UTF-8: e2 8c a9 UTF-16BE: 2329 Decimal: &#9001; \ 〈 \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ Decomposition: 3008 \ \ U+232A RIGHT-POINTING ANGLE BRACKET \ UTF-8: e2 8c aa UTF-16BE: 232a Decimal: &#9002; \ 〉 \ Category: Pe (Punctuation, Close) \ Bidi: ON (O
17:32:45 <ais523> 〈〉
17:34:33 <ais523> I guess I'm still in a CS-y mood, I wanted proper tuple constructors in my documentation rather than having to resort to some other sort of bracket
17:35:33 <ais523> `unicode MINUS SIGN
17:35:34 <HackEgo> ​−
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17:42:50 <shachaf> int-e: Like I said, they're everywhere.
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18:31:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Chaingate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51173 * Ais523 * (+7949) new language family
18:31:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51174&oldid=50446 * Ais523 * (+15) +[[Chaingate]]
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18:53:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MMIX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51175&oldid=50892 * B jonas * (+0)
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19:20:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Chaingate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51176&oldid=51173 * Ais523 * (-2) I implemented it while writing the article, but forgot to change the category
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20:03:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: about Chaingate, I don't understand the sentence "the ability to make finitely many irreversible changes that some fs have doesn't change the computational class of the language because you could just start executing after those have happened", because it might not be computable how many of those irreversible changes will actually happen
20:05:10 <ais523> hmm
20:05:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: also, where you write "0 exclusive to n inclusive" inside the defn of Free Chaingate, is that deliberate, or did you mean "0 inclusive to n exclusive"?
20:05:17 <ais523> I don't think it can make it from sub-TC to TC
20:05:22 <ais523> and that's backwards
20:06:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's possible that something like that still works, and the whole definition is unclear since you don't have inputs and TC would require inputs
20:06:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Chaingate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51177&oldid=51176 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Free Chaingate */ fix typo that rather changed the meaning
20:06:12 <wob_jonas> but the explanation is unclear as is
20:06:43 <ais523> if I had to be mathematically rigorous in esolang descriptions on the wiki
20:06:46 <ais523> they'd never get posted :-(
20:06:50 <ais523> I've been putting this one off as it is
20:07:26 <wob_jonas> also, this language description reminds me to Incident
20:07:34 <ais523> yes
20:07:39 <ais523> the language is inspired by Incident, also Malbolge
20:07:54 <ais523> it's more elegant than Incident though because you don't need a stack for every command
20:08:05 <ais523> and more elegant than Malbolge because the encryption does the data storage, you don't need a separate memory
20:08:09 <wob_jonas> so Free Chaingate doesn't have values that never wrap around?
20:08:15 <ais523> (not that Malbolge wass intended to be particularly elegant)
20:08:18 <ais523> and it does, you set n to infinity
20:08:31 <wob_jonas> ah!
20:08:35 <wob_jonas> that's how that works
20:09:34 <ais523> the language is clearly sub-TC if n is always finite
20:09:49 <shachaf> Hashlife is pretty neat.
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20:10:10 <wob_jonas> so you're hoping that this becomes TC by incrementing bigints, sort of like 3SP?
20:11:20 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes
20:11:33 <ais523> actually I'm pretty sure I can store data correctly, control flow is the only real issue
20:11:43 <ais523> it'd be trivial if not for Free Chaingate being reversible
20:11:59 <ais523> which tends to screw with your control flow quite badly because you need a bitbucket
20:12:21 <ais523> my current plan is to have two copies of each counter, and use the second one to undo the changes the first one made
20:12:33 <ais523> shachaf: I got shouted at in the past for trying to get #esoteric excited about Hashlife
20:12:37 <ais523> on the basis that it was old news
20:12:42 <ais523> it is definitely something worth praising though
20:13:05 <shachaf> Since when does #esoteric care about things being old news?
20:13:23 <shachaf> This channel spends most of its time gazing at its historical navel.
20:13:26 <ais523> I guess it did back then?
20:13:41 <ais523> this channel has changed dominant topic repeatedly, I think
20:13:58 <ais523> its typical topics nowadays are fairly unobjectionable, but also a fairly long way from the actual subject of the channel
20:14:28 <wob_jonas> gazing your hitsorical navel... hmm, have you bought a Nintendi Switch yet?
20:14:49 <shachaf> No, I've never had a Nintendo device.
20:14:54 <shachaf> Anyway the point is it's a pretty nifty algorithm.
20:18:08 <shachaf> If I like Hashlife what else would I like?
20:18:34 <ais523> !quote ais523.*free will
20:18:36 <ais523> err
20:18:36 <shachaf> There should be an Amazon-style recommendation program for papers.
20:18:39 <ais523> `quote ais523.*free will
20:18:41 <HackEgo> 717) <ais523> and then I spent much of the rest of the time trying to work out how to implement 3D Hashlife efficiently when at least one of the colors has free will
20:18:49 <ais523> in the end I gave up
20:19:10 <shachaf> Colors?
20:19:17 <shachaf> Free will?
20:19:27 <ais523> colors as in Life has two, live and dead
20:19:35 <ais523> if you have more than two making them different colors is normally simplest
20:19:53 <shachaf> Do you mean that the third dimension is color or that it's in 3D space and there are also colors?
20:19:58 <ais523> as for free will, the idea is that there's a human controlling the state transitions that infvolve a particular color
20:20:06 <ais523> it's in 3D space, and there are colors=states
20:20:40 <shachaf> I'm not sure exactly how free will behaves but it seems problematic.
20:20:58 <shachaf> Is it easier in 2D life?
20:21:18 <shachaf> (Or 1D? Presumably there's a 1D hashlife?)
20:21:23 <wob_jonas> there's also three-color Game of Life, where cells are dead, red, or blue. In each step, if a dead cell is surrounded by exactly three non-dead cells, then it becomes the color of the majority of those three; and if a live cell has less than two or more than three non-dead neighbors then it dies, otherwise cells don't change state.
20:21:58 <wob_jonas> Game of Life is a factor of three-color Game of Life in the sense that if you take a three-color Game of Life process and map red and blue to live, then you get a valid Game of Life process.
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20:22:34 <shachaf> `grwp red.*dead
20:23:08 <HackEgo> No output.
20:23:22 <shachaf> `grwp dead.*red
20:23:30 <HackEgo> Binary file reflection matches
20:23:46 <wob_jonas> hmm, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Game_of_Life says "discovery of the Gemini pattern" which looks wrong to me
20:23:54 <wob_jonas> isn't that an invention?
20:24:34 <shachaf> `grwp red.*dead
20:24:35 <HackEgo> Binary file reflection matches
20:27:43 <zzo38> Why sometimes the video is mixed up? The phase of the picture changes sometimes, and sometimes make it fuzzy. What causes that?
20:28:00 <wob_jonas> what video?
20:28:13 <zzo38> The video signal displayed on the computer screen
20:28:21 <APic> Binary ♥
20:28:21 <wob_jonas> I'm not sending you video, this is a text irc channel
20:28:25 <wob_jonas> ah
20:28:51 <wob_jonas> um, interference in the VGA cable because it's too long or too close to power cables usually
20:29:19 <wob_jonas> other possible causes are video chipset problems and monitor problems and dodgy cable
20:29:58 <wob_jonas> but VGA cable is the most frequent problem, and the good fix is to use monitor with DVI or HDMI or whatever this fancy even newer digital connection instead
20:30:03 <wob_jonas> monitor and motherboard
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20:57:11 <moony> > let a = a + 1; a
20:57:14 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:17: error:
20:57:14 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
20:57:30 <moony> >let a = a + 1
20:57:36 <moony> *Cant haskell*
20:57:41 <moony> > let a = a + 1
20:57:44 <lambdabot> <no location info>: error: not an expression: ‘let a = a + 1’
20:57:48 <wob_jonas> moony: in
20:57:48 <wob_jonas> let { a = a + 1; } in a
20:57:52 <moony> fail
20:57:53 <wob_jonas> braces optional in this case
20:58:09 <moony> > let { a = a + 1; } in a
20:58:10 <wob_jonas> or maybe you want do { let a = a + 1; a }
20:58:15 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
20:58:31 <wob_jonas> or just { let a = a + 1; a } but in Rust instead of haskell
20:58:35 <moony> but...i thought mueval was based on lambdabot? now lambdabot is based on mueval?
20:58:41 <moony> wot
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20:59:10 <wob_jonas> moony: both are based on each other. lazy recursion. always terminates.
21:01:44 <moony> > [1..] # demoing for someone
21:01:48 <lambdabot> error:
21:01:48 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘[Integer]’
21:01:48 <lambdabot> with ‘Data.Tagged.Tagged b0 (Identity b0)
21:01:54 <moony> *fail*
21:01:58 <moony> > [1..]
21:02:01 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
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21:40:37 <hppavilion1> Hm
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23:57:57 <oerjan> @messages-bold
23:57:57 <lambdabot> Jafet said 8h 12m 33s ago: trajedy isn't just a pushdown automaton, it can also simulate 3D printers: https://imgur.com/a/SntRM
23:58:00 <oerjan> fancy.
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