00:00:00 <HackEgo> cmd="${1-quote}"; \`^ 5 "$cmd"
00:00:11 <HackEgo> [[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \` "$2"; done | sport
00:00:51 <shachaf> Or maybe I should exploit the proletariat to become rich?
00:00:58 <shachaf> Or am I already doing that?
00:00:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
00:02:06 <ais523> shachaf: I don't know, but probably far too long
00:02:17 <oerjan> `slwd bin/`//s,[$]1,$cmd,;1acmd="${1-quote}"
00:02:22 <oerjan> `sled bin/`//s,[$]1,$cmd,;1acmd="${1-quote}"
00:02:24 <HackEgo> bin/`//#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${1-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl
00:02:37 <HackEgo> 522) <itidus20> what is nice about a pebble is that you can process it with your brain as a number by simply looking at it
00:02:49 <HackEgo> 1/1:1087) <Solain> im not a doctor when it comes to muscles
00:03:38 <HackEgo> `1//`1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4.
00:05:41 <HackEgo> 1/1:909) <fungot> Bike: the best acid? where is it?
00:05:41 <fungot> HackEgo: they say that you can't break an amulet of yendor is a smart move.
00:05:41 <HackEgo> Usage: /hackenv/bin/`^ n cmd
00:08:23 <HackEgo> [[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \` "$2"; done | sport
00:09:44 <fungot> shachaf: they say that a gold doubloon is extremely vain.
00:09:45 <fungot> HackEgo: they say that it's not what you eat. being required to do it, but, trusting his own authority. those children, because i knew this time i meant to scare, but of adjudicating in the _atiku_ festival in babylon, uruk and other quiet games of the fairies rather nasty people to make sense.
00:09:54 <oerjan> fizzie: fungot seems to no longer be ignoring HackEgo
00:09:54 <fungot> oerjan: if you really can't.
00:10:51 <fungot> shachaf: playing billiards pays when you cross it.
00:10:53 <fungot> lambdabot: booksellers never read scrolls; they might not have fiery breath or deadly stings, but none looked aside from the fact that all his soldiers gnashed their teeth, creating a tremendous vice-like bite... piranhas are attracted to any other of the damned to hell.
00:11:13 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
00:13:02 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf
00:13:25 <oerjan> (just testing if any other data was wiped out)
00:14:50 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
00:15:18 <shachaf> ?where+ test ^ul (?where test)S
00:16:11 <HackEgo> 1/1:629) <itidus21> myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die.
00:16:25 <shachaf> the whole thing is a shambles
00:19:04 -!- lambdabot has left.
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00:27:18 <fungot> oerjan: ( ( lambda ( ignored) fnord)
00:27:33 <fizzie> I had completely forgotten the ignore list isn't persisted automatically.
00:27:57 <fizzie> Normally I reset it when I tell it to join the channel, but after switching to the bouncer thing I don't need to do that after restarting it.
00:28:11 <fizzie> Should probably just save it in the state file too.
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01:40:48 <fungot> __kerbal__: where are you arcfide?
01:42:27 <oerjan> __kerbal__: fungot's bot ignore list had accidentally got cleared.
01:42:27 <fungot> oerjan: thx for link to fnord?"
01:43:13 <oerjan> see explanation in logs.
01:43:18 <ais523> fizzie: how easy is it to make updates to fungot?
01:43:19 <fungot> ais523: godspeed you black emperor! the dead flag blues? trying to find out
01:43:36 <ais523> like, can you remember what all the code does and where you'd need to change to change something
01:44:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:44:51 <shachaf> kmc_: fungot shares your taste in music hth
01:44:56 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
01:45:23 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i should like to congratulate mr telkämper. on development issues he is one of the priorities of health, security and defence policy, which is that when the coal and steel treaty for instance that by the end of the colonial and post-colonial period, has become the basis for our sovereignty. common fisheries policy.
01:46:20 <oerjan> alercah: you don't have fallback charset?
01:47:59 <oerjan> alercah: i have recode_fallback = cp1252 as someone suggested on channel
01:48:47 <ais523> what proportion of non-UTF-8 text that contains non-ASCII characters happens to be valid UTF-8?
01:49:45 <shachaf> Do you mean that contains bytes > 127?
01:50:56 <alercah> ais523: what's your sampling methodology?
01:51:12 <HackEgo> _ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌÍÍ̦̻ͬÌÍÌÌÍ¡_ͧÍÌÍÌ_ÍÍÍͧÍÌÌ̯Í̬̬̦̯_ÌÌÌͨÌÌ´Í
01:52:01 <shachaf> no one is answering my question about computable reals tdnh
01:52:12 <ais523> shachaf: I've given up on Stack Exchange
01:52:25 <ais523> the incentives are all in favour of giving fast, incomplete answers to easy questions
01:53:10 <ais523> yes, although stack exchange places huge emphasis on them
01:53:25 <shachaf> I guess it's not just Internet points but also votes and green checkmarks and things.
01:53:37 <ais523> but yes, they give you visibility too
01:53:44 <shachaf> The respect and adoration of friends, colleagues, and strangers.
01:53:54 <shachaf> Gotta keep churning out those answers.
01:53:57 <ais523> and you can just pay 50 reputation to put a question onto a separate list to increase the chance that people see it, so you can convert internet points /into/ visibility
01:54:14 <shachaf> How would you fix Stack Exchange?
01:54:47 <ais523> I've put a lot of thought into that but haven't come to firm conclusions
01:55:22 <ais523> there are some obvious bugs that should just be fixed, like the way that if you make a short post (that gets caught in the low-quality posts filter), then you or anyone else edits it to make it better, it gets an unremovable downvote
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01:55:31 <alercah> ais523: I know someone whose strategy was to answer as quick as possible
01:55:35 <alercah> then refine with a series of edits
01:55:39 <alercah> because of the importance of being first
01:55:43 <ais523> alercah: you have to do that on some sites
01:55:57 -!- __kerbal__ has quit (Disconnected by services).
01:56:00 <ais523> if a question was new I got into the habit of posting the answer without explanation first
01:56:03 <ais523> and then editing the explanation in afterwards
01:56:03 -!- __kerbal___ has changed nick to __kerbal__.
01:56:46 <ais523> posting early is so important that even if the answer is wrong, it's likely to get more votes than a correct answer posted later, unless the question becomes very popular
01:56:59 <ais523> exception: the answer does have to at least /look/ right, even if it isn't actually
01:58:38 <ais523> I think one good fix would be to age upvotes, making it so that if a lot of answers get upvoted /over/ an answer (i.e. when both are posted), its score goes down
01:58:46 <ais523> I think another good fix would be to ban voting when posts are sorted by votes
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01:59:49 <ais523> I'd also allow the OP of a question to downvote on it for free, regardless of their rep count, as a quick way of discouraging incorrect answers
02:00:03 <ais523> (most OPs can't actually downvote on their own post due to having <125 rep)
02:00:51 <ais523> I'd probably get rid of badges altogether, as they do more harm than good IMO
02:02:39 <ais523> I think it might be reasonable to get rid of the new questions queue altogether (in preference to the active questions queue), increasing the chance that late answers get seen
02:05:11 * oerjan hugs his fanatic badges
02:07:12 <oerjan> one thing that occasionally irritates me on PPCG is that in very active periods, the active tab gets overfilled while i'm sleeping or out of the house.
02:07:38 <oerjan> (likelihood also depends on my current sleeping cycle)
02:08:57 <oerjan> it's small enough that losing information about new changes _shouldn't_ be necessary.
02:11:10 <oerjan> (i don't check every question, mind you.)
02:11:51 <ais523> hot network questions is also probably broken, although whether it's broken or not depends rather on what its intended purpose is, which is unclear
02:12:11 <ais523> it tends to lower the quality of the sites it links to by rewarding trivial posts
02:12:44 <ais523> and suffers badly from positive feedback (most of the possible interactions for a 101-reputation user with a post increase its HNQ score)
02:13:04 <oerjan> that reminds of some subreddits that explicitly asked _not_ to be on the reddit front page.
02:13:15 <oerjan> for essentially the same reason.
02:14:25 <oerjan> my grammar is leaving ... i can feel it ...
02:14:38 <shachaf> why would anyone want to be on the reddit front page
02:14:42 <ais523> actually, the only interaction I can think of with a post that's possible at 101 reputation and can discourage a post from HNQ listing is flagging, and even then, only if a moderator decides to delete the post
02:15:04 <ais523> shachaf: most communities, forums, etc. benefit from having more good users, that requires the potential good users to be aware of them
02:15:58 <shachaf> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/130032
02:16:07 <shachaf> Does Actually use a nonstandard encoding?
02:16:33 <ais523> probably, most golfing languages do because few standard encodings have 256 distinct printable characters for the 256 octets
02:17:22 <ais523> although all those characters are in the extended-CP437 variant which has a printable glyph over each control code too
02:18:52 <__kerbal__> Maybe someone should make a language where ALL the assigned characters in UTF-8 do something... 2,164,864 commands, here we come!
02:19:12 <__kerbal__> (assuming that every unicode character is assigned eventually)
02:19:19 <ais523> someone tried that on Esolang, but they probably shouldn't have started by making blank pages for each Unicode range
02:19:30 <ais523> listing all the characters and not-yet-assigned for the resulting assignment
02:19:53 <oerjan> <ais523> admittedly, I do say things like ~h=∋ᵐ\cᵐ= in conversation occasionally <-- how do you pronounce it twh
02:19:55 <ais523> from a golfing point of view, though, you don't actually want a very large command set because more commands means more bytes to represent each command
02:20:02 <ais523> or at least, if you do, it should be Huffman coding
02:20:08 <ais523> oerjan: most of my conversations are done typed
02:20:26 <ais523> so often I don't know how a specific word and/or program is pronounced
02:21:19 <ais523> but you'd probably expand command mnemonics into a description, so "unhead equal element each transpose concat each equal"
02:21:30 <__kerbal__> the "increment a by 1, print the value at b + 4, input 5 chars" command could be ޘ
02:22:10 <__kerbal__> assuming a and b and b + 4 are on a stack
02:22:33 <__kerbal__> (I guess b + 4 would be 5 elements down from a)
02:22:58 <fizzie> ais523: It's not *too* bad. I remember the big blocks, and there's even a few comments. It's not written in a particularly compact way, and the larger structures make functional sense.
02:23:25 <fizzie> So you basically have to just decode a dozen-or-so-lines subprogram in order to change things.
02:23:44 <fizzie> Also there's a list at the bottom as to what things are stored where in the fungespace.
02:24:04 <fizzie> (Though that documentation might not quite be up to date.)
02:24:29 <ais523> __kerbal__: https://esolangs.org/wiki/UniCode is at least one of them; it's possible it's been attempted more than once though
02:25:29 <oerjan> ais523: that's the one that annoyed ehird, anyway.
02:27:56 <Warrigal_> __kerbal__: not sure what you mean by "assigned character in UTF-8", since the number of Unicode scalar values is only 1,112,064.
02:28:07 <oerjan> __kerbal__: i think it was mostly just the heaps of unassigned characters
02:29:12 <__kerbal__> Warrigal_: I'm not very familiar with Unicode, so I just pulled that number off of Google without doing enough research, admittedly
02:30:12 <Warrigal_> Must have come from this answer... https://stackoverflow.com/a/38488358/1108505
02:30:21 <ais523> the maximum Unicode codepoint is 1114111, which is a very easy number to remember
02:30:38 <ais523> but many numbers in the 0..1114111 range aren't assigned, and some are officially never going to be assigned
02:30:44 <Warrigal_> The number of code points which UTF-8 *actually* supports is 1,112,064; they're exactly the Unicode scalar values.
02:31:01 <ais523> the "these characters will never be assigned" values are sometimes not included in the total
02:31:36 <Warrigal_> The total number of Unicode code points is 1,114,112, and every Unicode code point has an "obvious" UTF-8 encoding, but 2,048 of them are prohibited.
02:31:36 <ais523> (strangely, IIRC 1114111 itself is one of them, not 100% sure on that though)
02:31:58 <ais523> Warrigal_: wait, /just/ surrogates?
02:32:02 <ais523> what about things like the byte-flipped BOM?
02:32:12 <ais523> that one is prohibited for an obvious reason :-D
02:32:15 <Warrigal_> I'm *pretty* sure that's legal to encode in UTF-8.
02:32:25 <Warrigal_> It's not a legal *character*, of course.
02:33:41 <ais523> if that's legal, I don't see why the surrogates wouldn't be too
02:33:59 <Warrigal_> Lemme see if I can find the official word.
02:35:33 <Warrigal_> "The Unicode Standard supports three character encoding forms: UTF-32, UTF-16, and
02:35:33 <Warrigal_> UTF-8. Each encoding form maps the
02:35:33 <Warrigal_> Unicode code points U+0000..U+D7FF and
02:35:33 <Warrigal_> U+E000..U+10FFFF to unique code unit sequences."
02:36:14 <ais523> what /is/ that whitespace made of?
02:36:52 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE]
02:36:54 <HackEgo> [U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+007C VERTICAL LINE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+007C VERTICAL LINE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+005D RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET]
02:37:22 <ais523> hmm, it didn't really highlight like pairs of spaces, but I guess it is
02:38:04 <Warrigal_> Anyway, that's the official word. All Unicode scalar values are legal for encoding, and nothing else is.
02:42:31 <Warrigal_> All right, I'm trying to implement mathematics in Lua.
02:42:48 <Warrigal_> Right now I'm writing the definition of a category.
02:43:17 <Warrigal_> add_eqn('_identity_domain', domain .. identity, object.id)
02:44:50 <Warrigal_> Which means: "The axiom '_identity_domain' asserts that taking the domain of the identity morphism of an object is the same as performing the identity operation on that object."
02:44:57 <oerjan> Warrigal_: give a shout when you get around to inter-universal teichmüller theory twh
02:46:38 <Warrigal_> Now, I want to be able to read and write axioms such as this one pointfully.
02:46:50 <Warrigal_> This axiom currently pretty-prints as:
02:46:51 <Warrigal_> _identity_domain : domain . identity = 1_object;
02:47:00 <Warrigal_> But I'd rather it pretty-print as, say:
02:47:15 <Warrigal_> _identity_domain : forall (x : object), domain(identity(x)) = x;
02:51:59 <shachaf> Did you see my comment about quicksort?
02:52:16 <shachaf> I was reading about quicksort and as far as I can tell every single implementation of it is misguided?
02:54:15 <Warrigal_> Nyow, how am I going to implement the pointfulness thing.
02:54:35 <Warrigal_> I guess I can start by implementing... expressions.
02:55:07 <Warrigal_> An expression has a context and blah blah blah blah blah.
02:58:04 <oerjan> shachaf: i hear it's not even O(n log n)
02:59:09 <Warrigal_> Hey, I thought of a question once.
02:59:11 -!- Warrigal_ has changed nick to t_swett.
02:59:15 <t_swett> And I thought it was an interesting question.
02:59:27 <t_swett> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2071246/how-many-rounds-are-required-in-a-swiss-tournament-sorting-algorithm
03:00:25 <shachaf> oerjan: you're not even O(n log n) hth
03:00:28 <t_swett> "You're organizing a Swiss-style tournament with N players of a game.
03:00:34 <t_swett> "The game is a two-player game, and it results in one winner and one loser. The players are totally ordered by skill, and whenever two players play against each other, the more skilled player always wins.
03:00:39 <t_swett> "In each tournament round, each player can play only one game. Going into the tournament, nothing is known about the relative skill levels of the players. The pairings for each round are not decided until the previous round has finished, so you can use the results from previous rounds when you're deciding how to pair the players up. You are not required to follow any traditional pairing rules.
03:00:43 <shachaf> let { h = n; t = log } in hth
03:00:45 <t_swett> "Your goal is to completely determine the ranking of all N players. What is Swiss(N), the number of rounds required in the worst case?"
03:02:04 <t_swett> The answerer here stated that "asking for the number of tournaments Swiss(n) is the same as asking for the span of an optimal parallel sorting network."
03:02:50 <shachaf> I think that's been discussed here before.
03:03:29 <shachaf> Ah, but you're saying it might be more flexible than a sorting network?
03:03:54 <t_swett> I don't see any reason why this couldn't give, say, a 95% speed up in the limit as N goes to infinity.
03:03:59 <shachaf> Doesn't seem like you can get much out of that, but I don't know.
03:04:01 <t_swett> ...I meant to say a 5% speed up.
03:04:10 <t_swett> A 95% speed up seems kind of extreme.
03:04:27 <shachaf> You should measure slowness, not speed.
03:04:59 <shachaf> Anyway, you should figure out how to write quicksort for me.
03:06:11 <shachaf> Everyone is passing the wrong argument: They pass 0,n-1 instead of 0,n
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03:11:17 <ais523> t_swett: you clearly need at least ceil(log_2(N)) to determine the winner, worst-case; so that gives a lower bound
03:11:28 <ais523> however I don't think it's always possible to determine the places in between that quickly
03:13:17 <t_swett> ais523: yeah, I calculated that at least log2(N!)/⌊N/2⌋ rounds are required.
03:13:51 <ais523> oh, because otherwise there are fewer unique resultsets than there are orders
03:14:36 <t_swett> > let swisslower n = log (product [1..n]) / log 2 / fromIntegral (div n 2) in map swisslower [2..]
03:14:38 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘b0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M869356298349...
03:14:38 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show b0)’ from being solved.
03:14:47 <t_swett> > let swisslower n = log (product [1..n]) / log 2 / fromIntegral (div n 2) in map swisslower [2..] :: [Double]
03:14:49 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Integral Double)
03:14:49 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘swisslower’
03:15:07 <t_swett> > let swisslower n = log (product [1..fromIntegral n]) / log 2 / fromIntegral (div n 2) in map swisslower [2..] :: [Double]
03:15:09 <lambdabot> [1.0,2.584962500721156,2.2924812503605785,3.4534452978042594,3.1639510321098...
03:15:38 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: ceil
03:16:06 <t_swett> So for N = 2, 3, 4, we get lower bounds of 1, 3, 3, which I found are exact.
03:16:20 <t_swett> For N = 5 and 6, we get lower bounds of 4 and 4.
03:17:01 <lambdabot> (Integral b, RealFrac a) => a -> b
03:17:25 <t_swett> > let swisslower n = ceiling (log (product [1..fromIntegral n]) / log 2 / fromIntegral (div n 2)) in map swisslower [2..] :: [Int]
03:17:27 <lambdabot> [1,3,3,4,4,5,4,5,5,6,5,6,6,6,6,7,6,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,8,7,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,9...
03:17:40 <ais523> I like the dismonotonies, but they make sense
03:18:13 <t_swett> Hmm, is it actually possible that Swiss isn't monotonic?
03:18:14 -!- __kerbal__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:18:20 <ais523> although the /actual/ value must be monotonic
03:18:26 <ais523> imagine adding a dummy player who loses every game
03:18:28 <ais523> then removing them at the end
03:18:58 <t_swett> I knew you could add a dummy player, but I wasn't immediately sure how that would actually affect stuff.
03:19:33 <t_swett> That any strategy that works for 6 players also works for 5 players?
03:19:56 <t_swett> Whenever we're supposed to pit someone against the dummy player, we instead just give that person a bye and assume that they won.
03:20:21 <t_swett> It is, in fact, possible to have a player who's worse than everyone else, so we're not losing anything here or whatever.
03:20:23 <shachaf> It makes you look like another person who has _ in their nick in the same place.
03:20:59 <ais523> preusmably b_jonas is the other person
03:21:04 <ais523> whose nick has a similar shape
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03:21:24 <shachaf> I didn't even think of b_jonas.
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04:10:11 <\oren\> http://imgur.com/a/6TibM
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04:30:25 <shachaf> copumpkin: do you read irc or just twitter twh
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05:46:02 <shachaf> https://plus.google.com/+DanPiponi/posts/RpwQAD4jTrb
05:56:08 <copumpkin> shachaf: rarely IRC nowadays except for a couple of channels a bit more often (but not very often still) :)
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13:08:06 <__kerbal__> ║ ║ ╔════ ╔════ ╔════╗ ═══╦═══ ╔════ ╔════╗ ═══╦═══ ╔════
13:08:17 <__kerbal__> ║ ║ ╠════ ╚═══╗ ║ ║ ║ ╠════ ╠═╦══╝ ║ ║
13:08:27 <__kerbal__> ║ ║ ╚════ ════╝ ╚════╝ ║ ╚════ ║ ╚═ ═══╩═══ ╚════
13:17:00 <int-e> well 5 lines are spam, especially when they become 10: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ugh.png
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14:08:07 <fizzie> Uh-oh, the wiki seems to be down.
14:08:25 <fizzie> On the positive side, at least this time I got an alert email about it.
14:09:57 <fizzie> On the negative side, it's not answering to SSH and I don't have access to the CaC control panels, so it's not like there's anything I can do, except mention Gregor by name in case he can poke at it.
14:10:31 <int-e> . o O ( Do not invoke the name of Gregor in vain. )
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14:11:20 <int-e> . o O ( Okay, next time I should check whether HackEgo is present before trying `ping. )
14:16:34 <myname> interesting, the 5 spam libes look horrible here
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14:34:52 <__kerbal__> I guess that I should use a pastebin the next time I have an overwhelming urge to create character art
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17:39:29 <\oren\> when the fog rolls in from the bog, there are frogs and logs in prague
17:40:05 <LKoen> are the logs light enough to be carried by the fog?
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17:41:36 <\oren\> i dunno I was thinking there should be a children's book that teaches kids european jografy
17:43:00 <\oren\> because apparently even most adults don't know where prague is
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18:18:16 <wob_jonas> If I make an esoteric language, it's ok if I write code that is less efficient but shows off the abstraction capabilities of the programming language better, right?
18:19:42 <wob_jonas> In particular, I want to implement arithmetic in the core language (to show that it's possible, even though it would be better to add fast arithmetic functions in the interpreter itself). The best way would be by various unrolled fixed size loops with large repetitive tables,
18:20:01 <wob_jonas> but instead I'll try to write short human-readable code that does arithmetic much slower.
18:20:19 <wob_jonas> I guess I should just note that in comments/.
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18:24:53 <wob_jonas> I will have to implement integer division too
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18:53:12 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's like "The evolution of a Haskell programmer"
18:56:39 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> I have a suspicion that when the "disconnection" happens I can send but not receive" => that happens to me too
18:58:25 <int-e> It used to happen to lambdabot too... now it's sending regular ping messages to detect the situation.
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19:07:22 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> I'm not very good at living away from home (even if it's just a holiday in a hotel) / and have lived in the same house almost all my life" => me neither. I just spent two and a half weeks away, which
19:08:47 <wob_jonas> is quite a long time as these things go, but it was easy mode because I was visiting my brother and stayed in his house. I moved out from my parents one and a half years ago, so this is the third house I live in permanently (but I have spent a significant amount of time in my parent's summer cottage too).
19:11:23 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> shachaf: moving is very difficult, especially when you have decade's worth of accumulated things" => indeed: a lot of my accumulated stuff (including books) is still in my parent's house.
19:14:39 <wob_jonas> also, I moved out in easy mode: to the same city and into an apartment where my brother has previously lived and they have restored it really well so I can trust the apartment
19:19:50 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> what proportion of non-UTF-8 text that contains non-ASCII characters happens to be valid UTF-8?" - almost no text is accidentally valid utf-8 as far as I've seen,
19:20:25 <wob_jonas> but there's a certain text compression scheme whose compressed form is deliberately valid utf-8
19:21:53 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> the incentives are all in favour of giving fast, incomplete answers to easy questions" - sure, but that's a general problem that happens a lot outside of SE too
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19:28:32 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> although all those characters are in the extended-CP437 variant which has a printable glyph over each control code too" => EXTENDED? that's the original version. cp437 is what the CGA and monochrome cards, the video cards always had all 256 characters in text mode,
19:29:41 * oerjan isn't sure that ais523 logreads.
19:29:43 <wob_jonas> although some printer control languages and some PC software use text formats that allow you to use only a subset, with teletype-like control codes (where at least carriage return is a control char)
19:30:58 <pikhq> My understanding is that "is this valid UTF-8" is more-or-less a perfect heuristic for detecting UTF-8 text.
19:31:10 <pikhq> Unlike most other encoding schemes.
19:32:20 <wob_jonas> pikhq: no, it does fail for some stuff with only ascii bytes
19:32:23 <shachaf> Among what other encodings?
19:32:30 <wob_jonas> but ais523 did ask for stuff with non-ascii bytes
19:32:35 <pikhq> Okay, okay, "is this valid UTF-8 and not ASCII".
19:32:37 <shachaf> It doesn't work for any other seven-bit encoding presumably.
19:33:01 <pikhq> Though if it's all 7 bit, then frankly you can just assume it's US-ASCII and *probably* be right.
19:33:04 <pikhq> shachaf: Quite nice.
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19:33:41 <pikhq> (I know there are many, many other 7 bit charsets, but who actually *uses* them outside of closed environments?)
19:34:37 <pikhq> US-ASCII is the MIME preferred name, so that's what I use.
19:34:46 <shachaf> ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI
19:34:47 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, it's called iso646 encodings
19:34:50 <pikhq> There are non-US ASCII-like charsets.
19:35:16 <pikhq> US-ASCII is the ISO-646 US encoding.
19:35:51 <wob_jonas> ASCII also has some fancy name with an X and a number in it
19:36:08 <pikhq> Rather a lot of countries have their own similar but not quite ASCII-compatible encodings.
19:36:51 <pikhq> *These*, incidentally, are actually the origin for C trigraphs.
19:37:06 <pikhq> The characters represented by trigraphs are not guaranteed to be invariant in ISO-646.
19:37:53 <pikhq> It just so happens that IBM's mainframes are the only actual users now, because IBM still *uses* charsets where they aren't guaranteed to exist, or can vary from charset to charset.
19:39:12 <wob_jonas> yes, although there's also the 7-bit SMS character set, which sort of looks like an iso-646 because the brackets are replaced, but it also puts printable characters to most of the control character codes
19:39:26 <pikhq> Though they do say that if you run C stuff without the charset being a CP 1047 compatible one, stuff breaks.
19:40:05 <pikhq> 's variants guarantee the ASCII set exists and is encoded identically. Those are used in the IBM mainframe POSIX environment, generally)
19:40:15 <pikhq> True, but that's the very definition of a closed system.
19:40:44 <pikhq> And you will never need a heuristic to detect the SMS charset in use; it's marked in the packet.
19:43:24 <pikhq> One of the options is "unspecified 8-bit charset".
19:53:07 <fizzie> oerjan: See few hours back re the machine being down.
19:54:43 <fizzie> I took the name of Gregor in not-vain on channel already, though "idle: 11 days 10 hours 47 mins 19 secs" does not fill me with confidence.
19:54:50 <wob_jonas> Here's a challenge. Without looking at Knuth's TAOCP, using only secondary resources instead, try to find evidence that in the MIX computer, the CMPA and CMP1 instructions with field specification compares the selected field of rA or rI1 resp, rather than the entire rA or rI1 resp.
19:55:41 <wob_jonas> I've googled for this, and the various informal descriptions of MIX out there on the internet always omit this curious detail. This came up because I'll try to write an entry on the esowiki for MIX.
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20:04:45 <__kerbal__> Here's the box drawing I made earlier, but WITHOUT spamming the channel this time: https://paste.ubuntu.com/25033876/
20:05:24 <__kerbal__> By box-drawing I mean box-drawing character drawing
20:11:53 <wob_jonas> "<\oren\> i dunno I was thinking there should be a children's book that teaches kids european jografy" => don't they do that in school? or do you mean to American kids or something?
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20:14:57 <int-e> reminsds me of http://sergiu.turcanu.net/wp-content/uploads/america.gif
20:19:04 <int-e> Gregor Gregor Gregor
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20:19:19 <Gregor> Whatever is up with the server, I haven't the power to fix it right now. Kicking it did nothing.
20:19:52 <wob_jonas> do you know who has the power to fix it?
20:19:54 <int-e> thanks for trying anyway
20:20:05 <Gregor> I have the most power to fix it of anybody who gives a shit ;)
20:20:18 <int-e> (i.e. anybody not CaC?)
20:20:27 <Gregor> But even the web control panel for CaC is barely functioning, so I assume they're aware.
20:20:37 <shachaf> I thought someone in here had switched away from it.
20:20:57 <pikhq> It's kinda crud, so...
20:21:08 <int-e> shachaf: I did, well, I canceled the toy CaC VM because it would continuously cost money.
20:21:13 <lambdabot> *** "crud" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:21:13 <lambdabot> n 1: heavy wet snow that is unsuitable for skiing
20:21:13 <lambdabot> 2: any substance considered disgustingly foul or unpleasant
20:21:14 <lambdabot> 3: an ill-defined bodily ailment; "he said he had the crud and
20:21:25 <shachaf> Hmm, I don't see the nautical metaphor.
20:23:14 <int-e> I don't know how many of these VMs Gregor has... might be worth the money even with their lousy service, assuming the VMs run at all. (The fee, I understood, is per account, not per server)
20:24:01 <int-e> http://www.cloudatacost.com/ ... oops, I mean http://www.cloudatcost.com/ (look at the former link though, it's a fun read)
20:24:40 <shachaf> I don't understand why it's called "at cost" and then charges you a one-time fee.
20:25:03 <pikhq> To be frank, you could probably get a better experience hanging a Pi off a cable modem.
20:25:21 <Gregor> int-e: Yeah, it's still SLIGHTLY worth it for me, but I have been slowly moving things away.
20:25:41 <shachaf> Is that supposed to be the full discounted cost?
20:25:54 <shachaf> Maybe you should move it all to Google Cloud.
20:26:02 <shachaf> Unlike fizzie you're permitted to use it.
20:26:03 <int-e> shachaf: I always thought it was a pyramid scheme.
20:26:15 <int-e> Well, Ponzi may be closer. But fraudulent anyway.
20:28:03 <__kerbal__> So, they will give you a virtual server for a pittance? That sounds scammy
20:28:14 <shachaf> The trick to learning Chinese characters is that it's easy to remember them if you invent several new characters for each one you memorize.
20:28:27 <pikhq> It's also a pittance of a virtual server.
20:28:55 <__kerbal__> They must have REALLY bad service, then
20:28:56 <Gregor> It's not really a scam, it just is really "you get what you pay for", particularly in terms of uptime and support.
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20:30:19 <shachaf> More of a scow than a scam.
20:32:43 <int-e> . o O ( their order form includes scripts from fraudlabspro.com ... too funny in context )
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20:35:34 <int-e> but the part that I do consider fraudulent is that they don't mention the yearly fee anywhere in the order form, calling it "one time" payment (quotation marks are theirs, for what it's worth). You still have to read their terms of service up to point 9.18 to find out about them. Though 1.b.iii) should make you wary: "CloudatCost reserves the right to change fees or charges without notice to...
20:35:39 <int-e> ...you. Your continued use of the Service after a change in fees shall constitute your acceptance of such change in fees."
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20:36:16 <int-e> same VM, I believe
20:37:55 <__kerbal__> (Of course, they are really slow to load from all the ads)
20:38:21 <int-e> "cloud" is such a vague term.
20:39:10 <wob_jonas> __kerbal__: not without javascript they aren't.
20:39:27 <int-e> Some people will call any VPS a cloud server.
20:40:06 <__kerbal__> int-e: I guess I mean hosted at a server local to none of the users
20:43:47 <int-e> who knows where they actually are... they use the fastly CDN
20:47:30 <__kerbal__> Has the wiki ever been backed up in the last few years? I know it did wiki-dumps at one point
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20:51:06 <int-e> But it seems that they are big enough that they should be running their own servers. Apparently they used to share wikimedia infrastructure.
20:51:26 <oerjan> fizzie supposedly takes backups.
20:51:30 <int-e> I believe fizzie mentioned having backups
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21:06:03 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i would firstly like to state this publicly.
21:06:19 <__kerbal__> I guess fungot is not on the affected server?
21:06:20 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, for me, of a multilateral system; that, thanks, purely, to trade barriers, combined with maintaining the key principles behind our proposals for decoupling and modulation of direct aid by the member states and to give farmers a long-term political perspective. this amendment is admissible. the french proposal refers only to judges in the criminal law and criminal procedure. in cases where the offences
21:07:27 <oerjan> fungot is not cloudy at all
21:07:27 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, i have no difficulty in accepting this, we should consider reducing the level of contamination. while some had a legitimate purpose to improve financial management. it now remains to be seen in this house.
21:07:58 <fungot> __kerbal__: madam president, the commission underlined the fact that it would be sending out a completely negative signal and a sombre message. more attention to this deficiency, as i have said, the adoption of the framework for the european union
21:08:55 <__kerbal__> is the president a mr or a madam? Make up your mind, fungot
21:08:55 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, it is something which will help control greenhouse gases in the european commission' s policy is not a priority.
21:09:43 <__kerbal__> Ok, so I guess that the contamination is "greenhouse gases in the european commission' s policy." Good to know
21:11:01 <oerjan> now we know what all that hot air really is
21:13:35 <int-e> are you talking about belching and farting?
21:14:48 <__kerbal__> Maybe the eurocommission is composed of cows
21:19:15 <wob_jonas> I think the esowiki only broke a few days ago though
21:21:11 <int-e> . o O ( `learn Calculus is mostly derivative. )
21:22:24 <__kerbal__> Oh, right. HackEgo is integral to accessing wisdoms
21:23:14 <int-e> hackego timed out about 9 hours ago.
21:23:26 <wob_jonas> __kerbal__: to writing them. for reading them, there's a separately hosted pdf file. wisdom/pdf has the url of that file.
21:23:38 <int-e> __kerbal__: "integral", nice. (even if accidental)
21:24:37 <__kerbal__> int-e: I actually did intend to make that pun...
21:25:18 <int-e> You just had to use an ellipsis there.
21:26:24 <__kerbal__> Are you the determinant of my writing style?
21:26:32 <__kerbal__> (That linear algebra one was a bit forced)
21:26:53 <fizzie> I do have backups. Most recently from Tuesday.
21:27:43 <fizzie> I've used them to set up a temporary read-only copy on one of my own machines twice, when we've been having Problems.
21:29:17 <lambdabot> EGLL 062020Z AUTO 29007KT 9999 NCD 27/15 Q1012 NOSIG
21:29:28 <fizzie> It's so hot these days. :/
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21:30:09 <__kerbal__> The wiki's eigenvalues are imaginary of control
21:30:25 <fizzie> I've also got a copy in a bank vault back in Finland, but that's not updated more than maybe once a year.
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21:34:10 <fizzie> I don't know what the English term for it is for one of those little locker boxes you rent from a bank.
21:34:50 <fizzie> "A safe-deposit box lives within the vault of a federally insured bank or credit union."
21:35:29 <wob_jonas> yeah, but those cost a shitton to rent
21:35:40 <fizzie> Well, I've got one of them anyway.
21:35:53 <fizzie> I do have other things in there than just the Esolangs wiki backup.
21:36:19 <fizzie> (It's also something like... between 5-10 euros a month?)
21:37:13 <fizzie> I seem to recall from the logs that a few people do a periodic copy of the XML dump we publish, so the wiki *contents* are probably quite redundantly stored. But my copies are likely the only ones with user accounts included.
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