00:15:07 <shachaf> You may be missing some context.
00:17:43 <__kerbal__> and the square root function equal a screw?
00:18:28 <shachaf> Never mind the sqrt(2) thing.
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00:34:39 <Hoolootwo> I remember in some speedruns of SMB2 there's a glitch area, in which mario has to navigate through memory without hitting blocks, then smash the one that brings him to the credits
00:36:58 <Hoolootwo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqjZCELEg5M
00:40:02 <fizzie> JavaScript people sometimes use "self" when they have to stick "this" into a variable for reasons.
00:54:13 <imode> Hoolootwo: yeah, those glitched runs are fun to watch. Metroid 2, Fusion, Zero Mission and Super Metroid even have some of the same techniques.
00:54:59 <imode> I think if you were ever going to design a game where the code exists in the same space as your simulation, you have to be sort of space-agnostic, meaning you can't favor any particular arrangement of objects.
00:55:27 <alercah> the techniques in the 2D metroid games are mostly only superficially similar
00:59:52 <Hoolootwo> I can't seem to find the specific run that does the out-of-bounds thing
01:01:27 <imode> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx85PyLFwUk
01:01:35 <imode> about 5 minutes in.
01:01:46 <imode> they're walking around in memory regions.
01:04:07 <fizzie> Arguably, you're always doing *that*, it's just not the memory regions you're intended to be walking around in.
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01:06:56 <wob_jonas> Re game where the game world represents game rules: (1) I have a vague hunch that one of the tasks in ICFP 2006 was like that, (2) it can sort of happen in games liek game boy super mario land 2 where you go out of bounds and end up in a glitched place where the game is reading the ROM as a game map,
01:07:12 <wob_jonas> and although you can't change ROM values, you can change variables in the RAM that way with surprising effects,
01:07:24 <imode> the trick to what I'm thinking of is having areas that the user is _intended_ to be there in one form or another.
01:08:07 <wob_jonas> (3) imode has hit the nail with Excel, because Excel 3 macros might be the best example for something like this, since macros are represented in macro worksheets with one rule per cell, and those worksheets are very similar to ordinary worksheets
01:08:52 <wob_jonas> except cells in them don't get their values automatically recomputed all the time, instead their values are only computed when macro execution steps there, and so editing the formulas works the same way in a macro worksheet as in an ordinary one.
01:13:47 <wob_jonas> I guess editing the config file of your text editor with the same text editor is also sort of like that.
01:14:24 <imode> I guess you have to consider what the space of your game can be. limiting things to 2 dimensions is a little.. eeh.
01:14:48 <wob_jonas> Like I said yesterday, excel is 3 dimensional.
01:14:58 <imode> 2 was just an example.
01:15:55 <imode> you could do a hunt the wumpus/trade wars kind of a thing where objects occupy abstract spaces like rooms.
01:16:26 <imode> "fetch a character from the keyboard" really takes on a whole new meaning then. :P
01:17:13 <imode> hunt the wumpus is based on a dodecahedron, not necessarily two dimensional.
01:17:26 <imode> you could reduce it to a planar graph, yeah.
01:17:31 <wob_jonas> hmm... I guess hunt the wumpus has holes you can fall into and die, so you could sort of count that as a third dimension
01:17:55 <imode> but the "space" you play in is inherently a graph.
01:18:08 <imode> not a uniform grid.
01:18:11 <wob_jonas> and bats that carry you to different rooms too
01:28:12 <Hoolootwo> I've played (a version of) hunt the wumpus on a complete graph before
01:31:59 <wob_jonas> Hoolootwo: with how many rooms, pits, and bats?
01:32:26 <Hoolootwo> uh n rooms, I don't remember the exact details, let me grab them
01:36:23 <Hoolootwo> https://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12532&lang=en
01:36:32 <Hoolootwo> not complete graphs, I realize that wouldn't make much sense
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04:07:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Does the backup wiki link need to stay in the topic?
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04:30:13 <shachaf> I didn't look at it in much detail before.
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04:47:15 <imode> not sure what you mean by "too good". too good for what.
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05:04:54 <pikhq> Yeah, Wireworld is a great CA.
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09:03:40 <int-e> uhm, google, why'd you put "shopping" where the image search used to be? That's evil, I say, evil.
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09:31:00 <int-e> oh, since 2008 we actually have speed of light communication in GoL ( http://www.gabrielnivasch.org/fun/life/lightspeed-signals ).
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09:36:58 <int-e> but still no lightspeed wire based communication
09:37:53 <int-e> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Lightspeed_wire
09:39:51 <Taneb> GoL programming reminds me of how I felt when I first joined this channel
09:40:41 <Taneb> People doing impossible things that I barely understand
09:42:17 <Taneb> ...2010 or 2011 I think?
09:49:43 <shachaf> I'll be pretty bummed out if we lose fshg
09:54:48 <shachaf> fshg is the HackEgo filesystem
09:55:08 <Taneb> Why would we lose it?
09:55:22 <Taneb> Other than HackEgo seems to have gotten lost
09:55:23 <shachaf> Because the server that was hosting HackEgo has disappeared.
09:56:38 <shachaf> Taneb: You should invent a good build system.
09:58:09 <Taneb> I've been learning abut nix at work, it seems pretty all right
09:58:39 <shachaf> It doesn't actually do the work of the build system proper, I think.
09:58:55 <shachaf> It just uses Cabal or Cargo or whatever. Right?
09:59:05 <shachaf> imo you should learn about bazel twh
09:59:52 <Taneb> Yeah, that might be the case
10:00:02 <Taneb> Isn't bazel a city in Germany or Switzerland
10:00:14 <shachaf> Also the Nix language is very complicated.
10:00:27 <shachaf> And it doesn't seem to be sufficiently declarative in the usual case.
10:00:42 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazel seems to be in Belgium.
10:01:21 <shachaf> There are many more than 5000 users of Bazel_(software)
10:07:29 <Taneb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel
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12:08:04 <fizzie> The reddit comments imply that at least for some people, they can create new servers on CaC, it's just the old ones that are not working.
12:09:43 <fizzie> Gregor: You might have some luck at power-cycling off / on from the console thingie now. (Or not. Probably not. But there's some success stories.)
12:11:09 <lambdabot> Local time for Gregor is Sat Jul 8 07:11:09
12:11:25 <fizzie> Maybe not the most bestest time to expect a response.
12:21:25 <int-e> fizzie: do you have a backup of the fshg repo as well?
12:22:03 <int-e> (shachaf was worrying about that)
12:24:06 <fizzie> Well, I do have one from 2013.
12:24:42 <fizzie> I'll set up something periodic if it comes back up, but the only thing that I had was for the wiki.
12:24:52 <fizzie> I do have a lot of IRC logs I can try replaying. ;)
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13:00:48 <fizzie> Something I've never understood: since the Games Done Quick schedule page has that JavaScript to convert all the dates and times to your local time zone, why can't it add a marker to show the current time, or dehighlight (lowlight?) the ones that are in the past, or something.
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13:19:50 <wob_jonas> Re HackEgo's state, replaying from the channel is not easy though, because sometimes I edit with multiple lines in private message then show the result here.
13:22:39 <fizzie> Sure, and there's also `fetch.
13:22:56 <fizzie> Might be interesting to try anyway, to see where it diverges and how badly it goes wrong.
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14:49:47 <int-e> . o O ( For this magic trick you'll need: A piece of string, a deck of cards, an identical twin, and a shoe box. )
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15:58:40 <fizzie> Hey, it's back. I didn't even realize.
15:59:12 <fizzie> Slow and steady wins the race.
15:59:35 <fizzie> Probably means I can re-point DNS things at the real deal.
15:59:43 <HackEgo> moth//Moths are the main ingredient of mothballs.
15:59:51 <HackEgo> not overcook. Seal and discard the meat \ with the chili powder and dust the lengthwise. \ \ Cover with fennel steak around the heat and beat in the cornstarch or water and soy sauce. \ Remove the broiler in a serving bowl. Stir together the olive oil, and \ salt together until mixture. Add the bread crumbs and heat well in a \ small bow
16:00:00 <wob_jonas> quick, someone save it before it disappears again
16:00:36 <HackEgo> changeset: 11076:58a63c67dd0c \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Wed Jul 05 23:03:15 2017 +0000 \ summary: <oerjan> slwd `1//s,almost ,,
16:00:45 <fizzie> I'll do a clone of the repository.
16:06:42 <fizzie> Also updated esolangs.org to point at the real thing, and thanks to the low TTL it should this time take only five minutes to propagate.
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16:20:59 <fizzie> Cloned. Also added updating it to be part of the weekly esowiki backup.
16:21:17 -!- fizzie has set topic: mermaid umpires | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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17:36:05 <rdococ> `le//rn hungary//Hungary is the country where everyone is vary hungry.
17:36:07 <HackEgo> Learned 'hungary': Hungary is the country where everyone is vary hungry.
17:41:29 <fizzie> Subject: [RESOLVED] host_down (esolangs.org)
17:43:14 <zzo38> I read the article about Amycus and in the part mentioninghow to make successor/predecessor of lists, I think the commas is supposed to be colons?
17:44:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: wait, let me look up what you're talking about
17:46:12 <wob_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Amycus#Implementing
17:52:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52396&oldid=46671 * B jonas * (+7) /* Implementing */
17:55:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52397&oldid=52396 * B jonas * (+0) /* Implementing */
17:56:07 <int-e> HackEgo: are you real or an identical twin?
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18:14:11 <shachaf> fizzie: I was worried about the existence of a backup, not specifically a copy you have.
18:17:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52398&oldid=52389 * Kerbal * (-123)
18:18:03 <HackEgo> olist 1080: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:18:58 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/
18:20:13 <shachaf> wob_jonas: This is one reason editing in /msg is discouraged.
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18:22:48 <fizzie> I usually do sed in /msg, and then repeat the final thing with -i here. (I don't hold with these newfangled sleds and whatnot.)
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18:25:41 <shachaf> fizzie: That would be a good feature for sled.
18:27:23 <shachaf> everything is back to normal
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18:51:51 <oerjan> (let's see if we can get int-e to finally add channel-based levenshtein distances as he's threatened to)
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18:52:20 <int-e> I believe I have found a simpler solution to the problem.
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19:13:45 <int-e> I didn't do a thing besides demonstrating the fact that having lambdabot on this channel is entirely optional.
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19:29:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: HackEgo and the esowiki are back
19:30:07 <ais523> I was aware that there were problems but trusted that they'd be sorted out
19:30:14 <ais523> is it still on Cloud At Cost or has it migrated providers?
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19:44:49 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan didn't appreciate my pun tdnh <-- i'd have to find it first twh
19:46:33 <lambdabot> http://www.geeksforgeeks.org/this-pointer-in-c/
19:46:33 <lambdabot> Title: 'this' pointer in C++ - GeeksforGeeks
19:47:25 <int-e> . o O ( this is me in C++ )
19:48:33 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: user error (parseRegex for Text.Regex.TDFA.String failed:"C++" (line 1, column 3):
19:48:33 <lambdabot> expecting empty () or anchor ^ or $, an atom, "|" or end of input)
19:48:37 <int-e> @quote int-e C\+\+
19:48:37 <lambdabot> int-e says: C++ does make a reasonably usable high-level assembler
19:49:15 <shachaf> C++ is nothing like assembler. It produces ridiculously inefficient code without an optimizer.
19:49:24 <int-e> (I was generating deeply nested loops with templates at the time.)
19:49:28 <shachaf> So much recursive template expansion.
19:50:05 <int-e> (So yes, I did effectively use it as a HLA, or perhaps HLC.)
19:50:06 * oerjan finally finds shachaf's pun -----###
19:51:10 <shachaf> I wonder why C++ doesn't allow this to be null?
19:51:12 <int-e> shachaf: just stay away from objects and virtual methods and it'll be fine... except that compile time may be slow, and if you're unlucky your code won't fit into the cache.
19:52:32 <int-e> it's so that compilers can optimize (this == NULL) checks away without violating the standard.
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19:52:44 <shachaf> Sure, it's a good language for producing efficient code.
19:53:04 <int-e> (which may be the result of inlining a function that has such a check, but is invoked with `this` as its argument)
19:53:31 <int-e> I think you're overusing "tg", hth.
19:54:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52399&oldid=52393 * Qwertyu63 * (+23)
19:54:54 <HackEgo> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
19:56:42 <ybden> I can't say I'd ever heard of it before
19:56:44 <int-e> shachaf: are you trying to become zzo38?
19:57:19 <ybden> Hm, it looks neat maybe
19:57:45 <shachaf> I was using "you" in the zzo38 sense, certainly.
20:01:29 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: Does the backup wiki link need to stay in the topic? <-- i left it in because the DNS needs to propagate...
20:02:29 <HackEgo> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
20:02:35 <HackEgo> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
20:02:46 <fizzie> I'm still getting wiki requests on the backup machine, even though I had a TTL of 5 minutes in the temporary entry.
20:03:29 <fizzie> Well, okay, at the moment it seems to be only "AhrefsBot/5.2".
20:04:04 <fizzie> I should've configured to log the host name used to access it, maybe something already started crawling the address that formerly was in the topic.
20:05:17 <oerjan> where would they get that address though...
20:05:31 <fizzie> The channel logs, maybe.
20:06:25 <oerjan> "Ahrefsbot" sounds like something that follows <A href=" tags...
20:06:46 <oerjan> which the channel logs are quite free of.
20:07:08 <fizzie> Ahrefs is the company name, though it's clearly named after that.
20:07:15 <fizzie> "Ahrefs helps you to learn why your competitors are ranking so high and what you need to do to outrank them."
20:07:31 <fizzie> Some sort of a SEO company.
20:08:28 <int-e> encountered them before.. their crawler is fairly aggressive
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20:11:47 <fizzie> Took a while to realize that Zucchini_cat.png probably refers to cat-the-program rather than cat-the-animal.
20:12:24 <int-e> . o O ( index.php:if (strpos($_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'], 'AhrefsBot') !== false) { exit(0); } <-- leftover from a slow php frontend and a failure to set up a robots.txt protecting it. )
20:13:04 <fizzie> Majestic's MJ12Bot was being pretty aggressive as well.
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20:15:45 <wob_jonas> int-e: isn't it better to do that in a wobserver config file?
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20:17:35 <int-e> wob_jonas: maybe if you're the webserver admin :P
20:19:20 <int-e> wob_jonas: Also, the robots.txt keeps this particular crawler away, but they only look at it for 24 hours. It was meant as a temporary workaround... but it never got removed.
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20:19:58 <int-e> uhm, grammar. s/for/once every/
20:20:51 <fizzie> robots.txt a day keeps the crawler away.
20:21:15 <imode> it also keeps the internet archive away.
20:21:34 <fizzie> You can put user-agent-qualified rules in there.
20:23:16 <fizzie> I added a disallow for "User-agent: SemrushBot" because their crawler was being *super* confused by MediaWiki's "URLs containing %3A get a 301 to the same URL with raw : instead" rule, trying to fetch the same thing over and over again, quite a few times per second.
20:24:05 <fizzie> I'm guessing they fetch, say, /foo%3Abar, get a 301 to /foo:bar, don't think that's a loop, then some piece of their infrastructure re-encodes that to /foo%3Abar for safety.
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20:31:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheSquashyApple * New user account
20:40:07 <wob_jonas> fizzie: and it didn't give up after like 16 tries?
20:41:14 <fizzie> I don't think it gave up each page eventually, but there's no shortage of pages with :s if you crawl a MediaWiki page.
20:41:32 <fizzie> Er, I mean, I don't think it looped indefinitely, but did give up eventually.
20:42:31 <int-e> I love these sites. http://esolangs.org.ourssite.com/ "Daily revenue: $829".
20:43:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52400&oldid=52352 * TheSquashyApple * (+248)
20:44:30 <ais523> fizzie: would you sell the site for $302,688, assuming there was a buyer?
20:44:40 <wob_jonas> int-e: great, you're successfully keeping most of the site's revenue secret from tax auditors that use that site
20:44:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:TheSquashyApple]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52401 * TheSquashyApple * (+56) Created page with "hi. i am some guy who likes apples and programming. bye."
20:44:48 <ais523> also, do we really get 27 million unique visitors a year?
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20:45:30 <Sgeo> HexChat was acting stupid.
20:45:44 <Sgeo> http://www.emojicode.org/ who would put this much effort in for an esolang??
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20:47:52 <ais523> it's OK, lots of people just lurk on IRC
20:48:03 <ais523> saying nothing until there's a conversation they're interested in
20:48:57 <int-e> . o O ( Applello! is a nice portmanteau, or should it have one 'l' less? )
20:49:15 <Sgeo> Emojicode has its own bytecode compiler and.. JIT I think
20:49:33 <Sgeo> And I don't think it just translates emoji into keywords for another language or anything trivial like that
20:50:01 <fizzie> ais523: I don't feel like I own it, so possibly not. And I'm really sceptical about those visitor numbers.
20:50:06 <ais523> TheSquashyApple: this one seems to have been archived in the Wayback Machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20060620061727/http://chimpen.com:80/l33t/
20:50:07 <int-e> oerjan: you're the portmantexpert, would you prefer applello or applelo?
20:51:21 <ais523> it's a BF derivative so it should be easy enough to implement yourself
20:52:47 <ais523> hmm, I wonder why its while loop is called if
20:54:28 <fizzie> ais523: We get less than that many *requests* per day, and a big chunk of those are crawlers of various kinds.
20:54:29 <oerjan> int-e: ThelloSquashyApple hth
20:54:53 <fizzie> Also their "Monthly Unique Visitors" is exactly 30 times "Daily Unique Visitors", which implies nobody ever comes back.
20:55:01 <ais523> so hmm, does this mean that an above-average number of our viewers have Alexa opt-in spyware installed?
20:55:16 <ais523> or right, that is a pretty suspicious relationship
20:55:20 <ais523> and/or complete failure of maths
20:56:59 <oerjan> Heraclitus' SEO company: you cannot get the same visitor twice
20:57:56 <int-e> I imagine they have a statistical model based on a sample of a dozen websites ... with factors like size of website, age, links coming in and out
20:58:16 <fizzie> alexa.com's similar page says the top 5 search keywords that send traffic to us are, in order, "wierd", "aaaaaaaaaaaaaa", "aaaaaaaaaaaaa", "weird" and "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa".
20:58:52 <fizzie> The upstream sites (which sites visited before) list is at least pretty believable: google, ycombinator.com and stackexchange.com.
20:59:01 <int-e> what's so special about 14 a's in a row
20:59:16 <oerjan> well one of them is an esolang
20:59:28 <int-e> Thanks, google: "Searches related to aaaaaaaaaaaaaa"
20:59:59 <int-e> one of them is "american association against acronym abuse", I wonder what they would say about this channel
21:01:03 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAA, obviously.
21:01:21 <fizzie> Google's search console has a quite different list, and says the top query by far is "brainfuck", followed by "this=that programming language", "ook programming language", "brainfuck example" and "brain fuck".
21:01:44 <fizzie> This is all very brainfuck-heavy.
21:04:33 <fizzie> I don't know what they were actually looking for, but http://esolangs.org/wiki/This=That is the #1 result.
21:05:40 <fizzie> That's an odd plot: https://zem.fi/tmp/esolangs-clicks.png
21:05:43 <fizzie> The bump is from May 24th to June 10th, during which time everyone wanted to know about brainfuck (and ook), it seems.
21:06:02 <int-e> some contest, maybe?
21:09:15 <int-e> or perhaps it was just https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/680huz/some_fun_with_brainfuck/
21:09:50 <int-e> I like this comment a lot: "We are looking for a passionate Brainfuck systems architect with 15 years experience for a social-media startup that's described like the Uber of bread-and-breakfast stays. The package includes shares, a common table tennis/swimming pool/bathroom space and your own bike parking lot."
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21:22:49 <wob_jonas> int-e: "Uber of bread-and-breakfast stays" is like https://www.xkcd.com/624/
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23:32:41 <zzo38> I thought perhaps that the specification of Unusenet should include specification of "control channels"; no client, server, or echo is required to use them, however. I should need to think of how to do it, or maybe you have idea too
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