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00:37:47 <\oren\> https://pastebin.com/s2Ga8rRY
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02:23:18 <zzo38> I am in the process of making the interface to Swiss Ephemeris for use with JavaScript, by use of N-API.
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02:36:55 <zzo38> There are some thing it does not do because Swiss Ephemeris does not have, such as house positions (and sidereal time) relative to planets (and also moon and sun) other than the Earth, calculation of moons of other planets, rotation of other planets, etc
02:43:18 <zzo38> How can I add these other thing that is missing?
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04:13:34 <shachaf> http://www.meta-synthesis.com/webbook/35_pt/look_around_you.jpg
04:13:43 <shachaf> Look Aroud You's periodic table
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04:49:33 <Cale> segnomin (thomason's oil)
04:56:50 <\oren\> https://pastebin.com/nneEPW2g
04:57:55 <shachaf> You should annotate your KSP links.
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05:07:43 <shachaf> Indicate that people who don't care about KSP don't need to click on them.
05:09:43 <zzo38> Just indicating that it is KSP should be good enough, I suppose
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05:50:31 <lifthrasiir> I was interested in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cangjie_input_method#Early_Cangjie_system for a long time
05:51:07 <lifthrasiir> https://p.mearie.org/gOHG.png it works surprisingly well, given its size (approx <500KB combined)
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06:07:59 <zzo38> If you know some thing about astronomy, how can you figure the signed phase angle? There is a picture here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Phase_Angle_3.jpg but I will want the answer to be negative if the Earth is on the other side of the line (the angle will be the same though)
06:16:45 <zzo38> (Also, that picture is JPEG even though it can work better as PNG, if converted to pure black and white, and that stb_image is unable to load that JPEG file.)
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07:20:10 <zzo38> I think I figured it out (maybe)
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08:30:16 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: The other thing then is the Cangjie encoding. For Chinese texts it seem like might be good to have
08:30:45 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: I was aware of it, but I didn't know about specifics (e.g. the exact encoding form, rendering strategy etc)
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08:39:53 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: if my analysis is correct, the bulk of data is actually the ideographic decomposition map (down to individual strokes or semi-strokes); the resulting instructions are rendered by the "font routine" which is a vector-drawing machine with some size-constrained hinting mechanism (I presume)
08:41:30 <lifthrasiir> what I'm unsure is whether the decomposition map itself can be directly visualized or not
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10:05:34 <lambdabot> monochrom says: no, you're thinking imperatively. when thinking functionally, you just worry one element, and let recursion worry the rest
10:05:40 <lambdabot> monochrom says: And so, I use formal logic all the time, and can still be very practical and speedy. This is contrary to most people's conventional wisdom. This is because they have only seen very
10:05:40 <lambdabot> primitive formal logics, like if you have only seen assembly code, you think programming is undoable.
10:05:45 <lambdabot> No quotes match. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
10:05:49 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Obession with operational semantics is a fundamental disease of imperative programmers (including imperative OO ones).
10:05:55 <lambdabot> monochrom says: How do I extract the IO out of IO String?
10:06:40 <shachaf> "if you have only seen assembly code, you think programming is undoable"
10:07:29 <shachaf> I think that's only true if your assembly code is for a reversible machine.
10:08:24 <izabera> what's a reversible machine?
10:15:58 <int-e> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Kayak is closer to a serious answer
10:17:35 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing
10:22:33 <myname> wasn't there a language where programs built a group over concatenation?
11:23:25 <shachaf> \oren\: SoundHound has worked for me exactly once.
11:24:24 <Vorpal> shachaf: how many times has it failed to work?
11:25:26 <Vorpal> My point was, have you tried it more than a handful of times?
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11:25:47 <shachaf> I don't know. It showed me 20 searches in the history just now, but probably many of them were repeated attempts.
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11:26:02 <shachaf> And I probably cleared the history and/or switched phones at least once.
11:26:08 <Vorpal> shachaf: From googling, it seems to be similar to TrackID?
11:26:26 <Vorpal> which is some Sony thing that came preinstalled on my Sony phone
11:26:46 <Vorpal> which seems to only handle mainstream music
11:26:47 <shachaf> I always try it with music in my head, not music I hear.
11:27:05 <Vorpal> what, humming the music?
11:27:08 <shachaf> It tells you to hum, whistle, or sing.
11:27:24 <Vorpal> oh, yeah trackid doesn't even pretend to be able to do that
11:27:45 <shachaf> It's a tricky thing, to be fair.
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11:28:36 <Vorpal> anyway trackid kind of works, in low noise conditions, and if the music is popular enough. Good luck identifying obscure folk/world music
11:29:20 <shachaf> The song it identified was "Song from a Secret Garden", which is part of an album called "Songs from a Secret Garden", by a band called "Secret Garden".
11:29:26 <shachaf> I think this one is a bit famous?
11:30:25 <shachaf> Wait, maybe it identified this one from listening to a recording, not humming.
11:42:56 <int-e> . o O ( "try whistling in tune" )
11:44:08 <shachaf> Do you mean approximately the same frequencies as the original, or just the same ratios?
11:44:42 <shachaf> Can I transpose everything up by a semitone? How about 4.5 semitones? I assume any good system should handle that.
11:44:45 <int-e> I think it really means the former, and no I can't think of a good reason why the program wouldn't compensate for that.
11:45:01 <shachaf> Anyway, when I want to use this program, I barely know the tune in the first place.
11:45:14 <shachaf> I have a small fragment of it in my head that I can barely grasp onto.
11:52:17 <int-e> it sounds as awful as the concept it embodies, does that make it onomatopoeia?
11:53:14 <shachaf> I liked this talk: http://www.ludix.com/moriarty/apology.html
11:53:36 <shachaf> It's by the same person as that talk in The Witness that you may or may not have heard.
11:56:09 <int-e> I see, http://www.ludix.com/moriarty/psalm46.html
11:59:14 <int-e> anyway I recall I spent that time cooking, in and out of the room (it's a small flat, I could listen from the kitchen in principle but of course there were distractions)
11:59:38 <shachaf> What would you do with fresh diced tomatoes?
12:00:07 <shachaf> I diced some tomatoes to make salad, but then it turned out the other vegetables I planned to use were rotten.
12:00:17 <shachaf> So I needed to make quick use of diced fresh tomatoes.
12:00:50 <Vorpal> the tomatoes that is, not the rotten food
12:00:58 <shachaf> (I ended up cooking them into a sort of sauce and jamming up rice with it.)
12:01:13 <Vorpal> shachaf: maybe oven baked tomatoes?
12:02:31 <Vorpal> yeah tomatoes, parmesan and some herbs (preferably fresh, but tried probably works too)
12:03:23 <shachaf> Do you pronounce the h in herbs?
12:03:39 <Vorpal> shachaf: I say kryddor in Swedish instead.
12:04:02 <Vorpal> but isn't the h thing a dialect thing?
12:04:18 <Vorpal> It is probably "erbs" in RP
12:04:27 <int-e> . o O ( herbe Enttäuschung )
12:04:48 <shachaf> I thought the h was pronounced in British English in general.
12:04:51 <Vorpal> and I'm not sure if I pronounce the h. Probably varies?
12:05:10 <Vorpal> From a Swedish point of view it would make more sense to pronounce it
12:05:27 <int-e> Pretty sure I'd pronounce it as well.
12:05:29 <Vorpal> shachaf: dragon is the Swedish name for tarragon
12:06:08 <Vorpal> with the h pronounced or not?
12:06:27 <shachaf> Is there a good way to dice tomatoes?
12:06:43 <shachaf> It's one of the most awkward kitchen activities.
12:06:49 <Vorpal> well I'm going to settle for the compromise, and pronounce it slightly :P
12:07:00 <int-e> . o O ( freeze and saw... no I don't think that's actually a good way )
12:07:05 <Vorpal> shachaf: plastic cutting board?
12:07:18 <Vorpal> use less watery tomatoes?
12:07:30 <Vorpal> there are many sub-species
12:07:39 <Vorpal> yes sharp knifes are good
12:07:50 <Vorpal> shachaf: do you pronounce the k in knife?
12:08:18 <shachaf> Vorpal: The trouble is that you need three axes of cutting.
12:08:19 <Vorpal> English is weird with it's non-pronounced letters. Why not just spell it nife then?
12:08:43 <shachaf> Silent e is properly bizarre.
12:08:51 <int-e> The funny thing about knot theory is that it's knot theory.
12:09:07 <Vorpal> shachaf: don't agree with the y
12:09:24 <FireFly> I'd read "nif" as with /i:/
12:09:27 <shachaf> only a naïf would spell it that way
12:09:36 <lambdabot> *** "naif" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
12:09:37 <lambdabot> adj 1: marked by or showing unaffected simplicity and lack of
12:09:37 <lambdabot> guile or worldly experience; "a teenager's naive
12:09:37 <lambdabot> ignorance of life"; "the naive assumption that things can
12:09:41 <lambdabot> Plugin `more' failed with: Prelude.init: empty list
12:10:03 <Vorpal> a naive person is a naif? Didn't know that word
12:10:07 <int-e> that's.... interesting
12:10:16 <lambdabot> Plugin `more' failed with: Prelude.init: empty list
12:10:30 <int-e> I suppose it has always done this
12:10:31 <shachaf> To my mind, i is a vowel and y is a consonant
12:10:45 <shachaf> And "knife" has a consonant
12:10:50 <int-e> It shows off the maturity of Haskell as a programming language.
12:10:56 <Vorpal> True, in English y is a consonant
12:11:27 <int-e> this is making me angry!
12:11:34 <Vorpal> y is a vowel in Swedish though
12:11:57 <int-e> shachaf: "angry" is a word where "y" is not a consonant.
12:12:07 <int-e> no, the @more thing doesn't really bother me.
12:12:16 <int-e> I might fix it, but I feel no sense of urgency.
12:12:33 <shachaf> Oh, sure. ybden is probably angry.
12:12:43 <Vorpal> aeyiuoåäö are vowels in Swedish
12:13:08 <Vorpal> Funny, almost all the vowels are on the upper row of qwerty
12:13:16 <shachaf> Do you like mushrooms in Sweden?
12:13:18 <Vorpal> in English, all of them apart from a?
12:13:40 <Vorpal> shachaf: depends on what sort I guess? I prefer the edible ones that don't kill me :P
12:14:32 <shachaf> That's a popular mushroom.
12:14:51 <Vorpal> yes, but I don't actively go out looking for them. Too much work, and I'm bad at spotting them
12:15:26 <Vorpal> So *why* are the vowels predominately on the top row of qwerty?
12:15:46 <shachaf> It makes sense to group vowels together if they're rarely combined.
12:16:21 <shachaf> Not sure why not put them on the home row.
12:16:40 <Vorpal> but wasn't qwerty designed for slow writing originally? To not break typewriters?
12:16:54 <shachaf> No, it was designed to not break typewrites.
12:17:09 <Vorpal> aöä are the only vowels on the home row for me
12:17:13 <shachaf> Which means you don't want adjacent keys to be pressed immediately one after the other.
12:17:37 <shachaf> But putting common letter combinations far apart actually speeds you up because you can use both hands.
12:18:02 <shachaf> I don't know whether this is true but it makes more sense to me than "slows you down".
12:18:10 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Mon Jul 10 04:18:07 2017
12:18:13 <int-e> the adjacency relation is probably this: qazwsxedcrfvtgbyhnujmik,ol.p;/[']
12:18:16 <lambdabot> Local time for Vorpal is Mon Jul 10 13:18:16
12:18:20 <shachaf> Good luck with your mushroom hunting.
12:18:31 <Vorpal> shachaf: I don't go mushroom hunting
12:18:37 <Vorpal> I don't find it enoyable :P
12:18:43 <shachaf> Then you'll need an awful lot of luck.
12:18:57 <shachaf> Maybe some morels will grow in your back yard?
12:19:03 <int-e> (rows are interleaved if I remember the workings of the mechanical typewriter that we got to play with as kids correctly)
12:19:07 <Vorpal> int-e: oh? kind of vertically, right, makes some sense
12:19:29 <Vorpal> shachaf: I don't have a backyard, I live in a apartment on the second floor
12:19:34 <int-e> oh, digits go in there as well I suppose
12:19:52 <Vorpal> well, a condo I guess the correct term is
12:20:03 <shachaf> Vorpal: Every statement you make suggests that you need *more* luck, not less.
12:20:17 <shachaf> What's the difference between a condo and an apartment?
12:20:29 <Vorpal> shachaf: I think the form of ownership?
12:20:49 <Vorpal> shachaf: I own the apartment as opposed to rent it.
12:21:05 <shachaf> But you still pay some form of rent, right?
12:21:10 <shachaf> For the shared building expenses?
12:21:13 <Vorpal> google translate says bostadsrätt -> condominium
12:21:29 <shachaf> What a bizarre chemical element.
12:21:39 <Vorpal> shachaf: yes, there is that
12:22:17 <Vorpal> shachaf: but I can renovate and do whatever I like with the interior
12:22:17 <shachaf> Should I buy an apartment?
12:22:39 <Vorpal> I can't tell you that. You will have to decide based on your life situation if that makes sense for you or not
12:23:12 <Vorpal> Also the market is probably different in US than Sweden
12:23:41 <shachaf> Especially in this area of the US.
12:24:12 <shachaf> I think the price/rent ratio is much higher here than elsewhere in the country.
12:24:17 <Vorpal> I need to buy some sour milk, almost out of it.
12:24:33 <shachaf> Can you wait for your regular milk to become sour?
12:25:08 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filmj%C3%B6lk ?
12:25:14 <Vorpal> shachaf: will likely not be the proper bacterial culture and thus will be poisonous
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12:25:49 <shachaf> Well, it's only most likely, not certain.
12:26:01 <shachaf> So you can get some of the excitement of mushroom hunting.
12:26:32 <shachaf> If you pick some random mushroom, it might be poisonous or delicious.
12:26:52 <Vorpal> shachaf: or possibly hallucinogenic
12:28:51 <shachaf> I may try your tomato trick.
12:30:04 <shachaf> The thing about tomatoes is that there's an amazing amount of variance in quality.
12:31:31 <Vorpal> shachaf: especially home growns
12:31:42 <Vorpal> they are better quality than shop bought ones
12:31:50 <Vorpal> even better than organic ones
12:32:22 <shachaf> Are vegetables labeled as "organic" a good idea to buy?
12:32:36 <Vorpal> shachaf: organic food is food produced without using pesticides
12:32:45 <shachaf> Does organic farming produce vegetables that are more delicious or more healthy?
12:32:52 <shachaf> What? That doesn't sound right.
12:33:00 <shachaf> Do you mean without certain classes of pesticides?
12:33:27 <Vorpal> nope, I meant what I said.
12:33:28 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food
12:33:41 <shachaf> "For instance, naturally occurring pesticides such as pyrethrin and rotenone are permitted, while synthetic fertilizers and pesticides are generally prohibited."
12:33:54 <shachaf> Oh, that's not your article, that's Organic_farming
12:34:14 <Vorpal> well yeah it is the same. Some plants produce pesticides in and of themselves
12:34:51 <shachaf> Is organic farming sustainable? Does it waste resources?
12:35:01 <shachaf> "organic" means so many different things.
12:35:03 <Vorpal> anyway I read a study a while ago that showed that the levels of various toxins in the body decreased dramatically after eating only organic food for about a week.
12:35:24 <shachaf> Sometimes, when referring to animal products, it can mean the animals are treated better. Or sometimes not.
12:35:32 <Vorpal> shachaf: 1) maybe 2) not really, depends on your definition
12:35:48 <Vorpal> shachaf: the Swedish terms are more precise I feel like
12:35:59 <Vorpal> no it was a Swedish study I think
12:36:16 <Vorpal> not sure I could find it, was maybe 1-2 years ago
12:36:18 <shachaf> I sometimes get the impression that "organic" is primarily a marketing term designed to part rich people from their fAu.
12:36:35 <shachaf> Maybe the Swedish version is better.
12:36:47 <Vorpal> shachaf: also, there are issues with pesticides killing off good insects as well. Like bees.
12:37:14 <Vorpal> well, there is a standards organization with certification
12:37:21 <shachaf> On the other hand I'm rich by some measures, so maybe I should buy organic food to be on the safe side.
12:37:44 <Vorpal> not sure if US has anything like KRAV
12:37:56 <shachaf> It's not a matter of price but a matter of principle.
12:38:13 <shachaf> Anyway, it's way too late.
12:38:18 <shachaf> I'm going to try to sleep.
12:39:54 <Vorpal> anyway, you will have to study the topic and make up your own mind about it. I buy exclusively organic food for any food where it is available. (I.e. there is no organic salt, probably because the definition wouldn't make any sense)
12:41:04 <Vorpal> shachaf: Good organic cheese can be hard to find as well. Other than that, I would say Sweden is probably one of the countries in the world where it is easiest to find organic alternatives
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13:25:58 <Cale> shachaf: ahaha, I just noticed on the look around you periodic table, Music has the numbers 4 4, while Jazz has 5 4
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15:01:09 <int-e> shachaf: funny that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Moriarty should call that video an Easter egg.
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17:55:40 <HackEgo> olist 1081: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:55:45 <wob_jonas> yes, apparently just two days after 1080
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18:02:26 <shachaf> Vorpal: I live in Berkeley, CA. I don't think it's very difficult to find things labeled "organic".
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18:03:12 <shachaf> int-e: Funny indeed. Did they listen to the talk?
18:03:45 <Vorpal> Why am I trying to use LaTeX to print labels for the back of binders...
18:04:15 <int-e> shachaf: ironically one bit that I did not listen to was where he says what the topic of the lecture is :-P (I skimmed the transcript)
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18:05:07 <Vorpal> The uniformity and the exact typesettings were my original goals. Plus cutting guides and such. But getting LaTeX to actually place something at exact coordinates on a page and then make it line up across all pages is painful
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18:07:05 <HackEgo> russell's teapot//Russell's little Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout. / If you see it / Let us know / If you don't / What does that show?
18:07:13 <HackEgo> 785) <oklopol> zzo38: i only like games whose names start with "mine"
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18:09:33 <Vorpal> I mean, on some binders I want one or more lines of subtitles (like 2014-2017). This tends to move the title up compared to other binders. Such that the titles don't line up across the different binders
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18:10:34 <Vorpal> I guess LaTeX just isn't great for when you *do* want to worry about the layout. In that case you need to make your own style file I guess. Which is way over my LaTeX skills currently.
18:11:18 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Don't standard healing spells work against the virus?
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18:14:19 <zzo38> I just use Plain TeX (and have used it to make a label on the back of a binder once)
18:16:09 <wob_jonas> shachaf: that would need someone who can cast a level 3 cleric spell, and they'd probably have to do that for each creature on the airship at close to the same time.
18:16:45 <ais523> shachaf: there has been in-comic discussion of how that works already
18:17:04 <wob_jonas> It's not a spell bards have access to.
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18:17:19 <ais523> shachaf: IIRC related to the control weather thing
18:17:23 <shachaf> I guess curing disease is distinct from curing wounds.
18:17:34 <ais523> the vampire in Durkon's body uses control weather directly against a thunderstorm sent by Thor
18:17:48 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, sure, a discussion saying that they could indeed use standard healing spells.
18:17:56 <ais523> and Thor has to let it succeed due to an agreement among the gods to allow each others' clerics to intervene
18:18:00 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, it can be done by the specific level 3 Cure Disease spell, or the level 6 Heal spell.
18:18:03 <shachaf> But I suppose they don't have convenient access to a cleric.
18:18:05 <ais523> so standard healing spells should work here on the same reasoning
18:18:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: the problem is that #1081 says every creature on the airship is inflected. That's a lot of people and animals.
18:18:44 <ais523> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeDisease.htm
18:18:53 <ais523> in theory, Belkar could cast it if given a Wisdom boost
18:18:57 <ais523> I think the odds of that happening are pretty low
18:19:21 <Vorpal> zzo38: TeX without addons? Hm
18:19:32 <ais523> however, the duration is long enough that it should be fixable after the current arc is over
18:19:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: even in that unlikely case, Belkar could only cast it a few times
18:19:46 <Vorpal> zzo38: or is Plain TeX a specific addon to TeX?
18:20:38 <wob_jonas> they'd have a much higher chance to pay multiple clerics next time they stay in a town. but they just left a town and then a meeting of clerics.
18:20:44 <zzo38> Vorpal: Plain TeX is the default addon to TeX.
18:21:31 <wob_jonas> Plain TeX is the canon default template file in the sense that it's one of the templates Knuth himself has made and it's the one the TeXbook describes
18:21:32 <shachaf> Why not boost Belkar's wisdom again?
18:21:37 <Vorpal> yeah I'm googling for high level LaTeX solutions currently. There seem to be a few options. Not sure how well they will fit though.
18:22:35 <Vorpal> or if they solve my specific problem of lining specific types of lines up across multiple pages/labels. I already found a solution to putting multiple small pages on a single standard A4
18:24:02 <zzo38> If you are making labels rather than a book, you might also use a different output routine than the default one.
18:24:06 <wob_jonas> shachaf: because (a) boosting his wisdom was a joke, it doesn't really work, (b) it's a level 3 spell, you'd have to boost his wisdom to at least 13, which is likely impossible as his base is probably too low and the standard wisdom boost spell only gives +4,
18:24:29 <Vorpal> zzo38: different style?
18:24:39 <Vorpal> or document class as it were
18:24:56 <Vorpal> that is what I'm searching for at the moment
18:25:00 <wob_jonas> (c) even if they did that, he'd get at most two uses of a level 3 spell per day, and the Cure Disease spell only fixes one person, and that person can be reinfected.
18:25:14 <Vorpal> https://ctan.org/pkg/labels and https://www.ctan.org/pkg/ticket both seems potentially relevant
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18:27:37 <wob_jonas> (d) Owl's Wisdom can bring Belkar through the wisdom limit, but it doesn't count for the number of spells prepared, which I think will probably still be zero for Belkar because of his low base wisdom
18:28:13 <wob_jonas> (the spell is specified like this because regaining spells takes a rest of at least two hours, but Owl's Wisdom increases someone's wisdom only for a few minutes)
18:29:06 <ais523> (d) was my largest objection to the plan
18:29:11 <ais523> the others are pretty relevant too, though
18:29:17 <ais523> (fwiw, I think (a) is caused by (d))
18:30:07 <Vorpal> seems like it based on context. Or it is MtG knowing this channel
18:30:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, (a) is caused mostly by (d) and partly by (b)
18:30:56 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: D&D, related to what happens in the Order of the Stick strip #1081
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18:31:23 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: I tried to ask about M:tG rules too yesterday, but ais523 denied that he knew them
18:31:26 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: I played a couple of systems, but never DnD itself.
18:31:42 <ais523> I'm not an expert on them
18:32:07 <shachaf> So the last time his wisdom score was raised it was used for casting a scroll.
18:32:24 <Vorpal> Savage World, Apocalypse World and a pretty good yet to be published Swedish system (I have a friend who is really into designing role playing systems)
18:33:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait wait, (a) can't be caused by (d). The joke use was for a scroll, the number of prepared spells doesn't matter for that, only a spell difficulty check does, right?
18:33:23 <Vorpal> Actually it wasn't Apocalypse World, but Dungeon World iirc, same style of system, different theme though.
18:34:00 <Vorpal> (I'm not an expert at this)
18:34:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: one thing that could work though is potions of Remove Disease. Those exist.
18:34:45 <wob_jonas> And we've recently seen that the OotS was lucky and found two or three cheap source of potions, besides the usual random drops and shops
18:37:38 <wob_jonas> And using potions is easy in general, even without a cleric the OotS would manage.
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18:39:51 <Vorpal> looks like the ticket package for LaTeX will be able to do what I want. Maybe or maybe not crop marks in light gray though. It can do crop marks certainly
18:45:51 <int-e> . o O ( Newton is overrated. His work on calculus was very much derivative. )
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19:30:53 <zzo38> Vorpal: I did not mention different style, different document class, I said a different output routine.
19:32:56 <zzo38> I did write also a program to rasterize DVI files into PBM format, which can then be converted by use of foo2zjs or whatever, into the format needed for the printer.
19:33:43 <zzo38> wob_jonas: What M:tG rules you try to ask about please?
19:35:10 <wob_jonas> zzo38: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/17.07.07 use of linked abilities of a permanent when that permanent has got those abilities indirectly through either a copy effect or a quicksilver effect
19:35:28 <wob_jonas> I think I asked you too a few months ago, when ais wasn't here
19:37:04 <zzo38> I don't know either, unfortunately.
19:37:07 <wob_jonas> I'm primarily interested in a general rule, not rulings for specific cases.
19:37:28 <wob_jonas> Or at least a general rule when quicksilver effects aren't involved.
19:51:35 <zzo38> I would think that it can still remember, although it is entirely unclear.
19:54:02 <wob_jonas> 607.5 is phrased unclearly. It does seem to claim at least that the ability on an object can't ever be linked with an ability on another object, so you can't eg. exile cards with one permanent and use them by activating the ability on another permanent.
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19:55:04 <wob_jonas> But 607.1a seems to contradicts this. I think 607.1a tries to clarify how cards like Cho-Manno's Blessing or Ward Sliver work.
19:57:08 <zzo38> Yes, the rules are entirely unclear. My opinion is that a precise mathematically elegant and logical framework should be described by the rules, in order to make these things clear, because as it is, some things aren't so clear.
19:57:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure, but developing and maintaining such a framework might not be economically worth for anyone
19:58:45 <zzo38> I would be willing to help work on such thing
20:05:22 <zzo38> I would have think better might be made by "AST graph linking", and the way I am thinking, they would still work, although in the case of Ward Sliver it is "instantiated parameterized keyword ability", although similar things can still be done with nonkeyword abilities too if needed.
20:06:47 <zzo38> There is all sort of stuff like that (and stuff somewhat similar, including stuff already exist but now I made up the name for it), such as "persistent property", "mana step", "kind", "initial text", etc.
20:07:35 <zzo38> What will you think of it?
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20:15:11 <wob_jonas> zzo38: In fact, even instants like Blessed Breath may count. There are even more of those than auras Cho-Manno's Blessing. (I have several of both of these categories in my collection. At one point I decided granting protection was cool and bought a lot of them.)
20:17:08 <Vorpal> <zzo38> I did write also a program to rasterize DVI files into PBM format, which can then be converted by use of foo2zjs or whatever, into the format needed for the printer. <-- not sure why that is relevant. The output routine would be like "pdftex" or "luatex"?
20:17:32 <Vorpal> or what do you mean by that term
20:18:08 <zzo38> Vorpal: An output routine is something defined in the TeX file, by using the \output command. Once a page is completed, it calls that, which then adds headers and footers, and ships it out to the DVI file.
20:21:33 <wob_jonas> Permanents that grant protection or landwalk with a choosable parameter include: Cho-Manno's Blessing, Flickering Ward (costs W), Floating Shield, Pentarch Ward, Riders of Gavony, Runed Halo (strange one), Traveler's Cloak, Ward of Light, Ward Sliver.
20:22:30 <Vorpal> however the ticket LaTeX package seems to be usable for my needs.
20:22:38 <Vorpal> so no need to reinvent the wheel
20:23:08 <wob_jonas> Yes, although you don't really need a custom output routine to get specific positions. You can just adjust various distance parameters.
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20:44:29 <\oren\> while(1){ if(n == 0) break; n--; ... }
20:45:28 <doesthiswork> maybe they just want to make sure that the loop is entered at least once
20:46:25 <doesthiswork> programming is about more than just fill in the blanks
20:46:28 <\oren\> I'm replacing it with while(n--!=0)
20:48:29 <\oren\> the freedom to write three lines instead of 1?
20:50:30 <doesthiswork> exactly! real programmers aren't satisfied with the limiting abstractions
20:54:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfork]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52412&oldid=23594 * Zseri * (+134) /* Examples */
20:56:10 <fizzie> while (1) { if(n == 0) break; n--; ... } and while (n--!=0) { ... } aren't the same thing if 'n' is used after the loop.
21:00:30 <doesthiswork> on a serious topic, ++, --, pop, and get seem similar because they use up a value off a sequence, are there common uses for ++,-- that don't fit into this?
21:00:49 <myname> it should at leas be while(--n!=0)
21:02:24 <fizzie> Well, that's pretty different as well, since it won't run the body as n == 0.
21:03:11 <doesthiswork> the solution for n--!=0 would be just to increment it after the loop
21:03:55 <fizzie> The use of ++ in something that builds a histogram as in for (...) h[i]++; doesn't sound like "use up a value off a sequence" to me.
21:04:51 <doesthiswork> fizze: I'll ignore all the cases where ++ is only used for its side effect
21:05:57 <fizzie> I'm sure there's an esolang implementation somewhere using *++p = x; for something tape-related.
21:07:41 <doesthiswork> ok, that is quite different from using up a value.
21:14:53 <\oren\> ^ the above is, amazingly, NOT undefined behaviour
21:15:26 <\oren\> it incements the value p points to and then increments p
21:15:59 <Vorpal> \oren\: how is that not undefined... Where is the sequence point?
21:15:59 <shachaf> How would you write a loop that loops over both indices and elements of an array?
21:16:25 <shachaf> An array has one more index than it has elements.
21:16:29 <Vorpal> doesthiswork: you may need some parentheses?
21:16:40 <\oren\> Vorpal: there is none needed, since p is only modified once
21:16:54 <\oren\> and the vlaue p points to is only modified once
21:17:03 <\oren\> so no sequnce point problem
21:17:24 <Vorpal> \oren\: what makes it increment the pointed to value before the pointer though?
21:17:28 <shachaf> Would you write: for (i = 0; ; i++) { ...i...; if (i == len) break; ...a[i]...; }
21:18:05 <\oren\> Vorpal: ++x returns the incremented vlaue. x++ returns the value, then increments it
21:18:34 <\oren\> or (increments it, then returns the original value)
21:18:35 <Vorpal> does ++prefix have higher operator precedence than suffix++?
21:18:54 <Vorpal> I thought they had the same precedence
21:19:16 <\oren\> all suffixes attach more strongly than prefixes
21:19:31 <Vorpal> well that explains it then
21:19:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: *x++': not found
21:20:10 <Vorpal> it is not code that I write very often, (and if I ever saw that in a code review I would not accept it)
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21:20:44 <Vorpal> \oren\: anyway what doesthiswork suggested, could you do this multiple layers with something like int** p; ?
21:20:49 <\oren\> just like `*x[1]' <=> `*(x[1])'
21:20:59 <Vorpal> and would you at that point need parentheses?
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21:21:16 <\oren\> --*++*p++ would work fine
21:21:25 <shachaf> Did you know this is valid C99? int foo(int x, int y[f(x)]) { ... }
21:21:52 <shachaf> Did you know this is valid C99? int foo(int n, int m, int a[n][m]) { ... }
21:21:56 <Vorpal> shachaf: the function call in the [] is valid? what does it do?
21:22:01 <shachaf> The value of n isn't used but the value of m is.
21:22:09 <Vorpal> I thought it had to be a immediate constant
21:22:10 <shachaf> Vorpal: It's evaluated when the function is called.
21:22:31 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, C99 specifies the optional dynamic sized arrays feature. it's a controversial topic: some people love it, and some people hate it.
21:22:32 <\oren\> shachaf: oh, and then you get the result by using sizeof? neat!
21:22:41 <Vorpal> shachaf: so... that becomes available to the sizeof operator inside the function then?
21:22:41 <wob_jonas> I personally dislike C99 dynamic sized arrays.
21:23:23 <shachaf> It's used for multidimensiona array indexing.
21:23:34 <Vorpal> I don't like dynamically sized stuff on the stack, but elsewhere I don't care.
21:23:57 <Vorpal> \oren\: is the ++*p++ thing valid C++ as well hm
21:24:13 <Vorpal> I assume it would be, but you can't be sure
21:24:57 <Vorpal> C++ really did have *some* good ideas for how to improve C. Namespaces for example. Shame it had soooo many bad ideas.
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21:31:02 <Vorpal> Also templates could have been neat, had they NOT been turing complete. I had to write specialized functions for different data types before in C, that could have been auto generated in C++ with templates. Such is the world of inner loops of embedded software
21:33:51 <\oren\> operator overloading was amistake
21:35:28 <\oren\> specifically, the way operator overloading is used in the C++ standard library is a huuge mistake
21:35:50 <int-e> such strong opinions
21:36:02 <\oren\> << and >> sould never have been used for io
21:36:59 <\oren\> iostream is a massive, globally-reaching fuckup
21:38:26 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I think operator overloading in C++ is fine in general. There are some minor problems connected to operator overloading, some of which are minor design mistakes (some of which could be fixed even now), some are overzelous operator overloading in certain third-party libraries.
21:39:21 <\oren\> and of course, string concatenation should never have been +
21:40:44 <wob_jonas> One thing I particularly hate is how the C++ standard doesn't support C99 builtin complex floating point types, but only the old std::complex class template with operator overloading.
21:41:07 <wob_jonas> What's the point? All sane compilers want to support C99 builtin complex floats, so why not just allow them in C++ too?
21:41:38 <\oren\> doesthiswork: that would be ok, but you know what would be better?
21:41:59 <wob_jonas> Gcc allows them fine, but it would be nice if certain details (like which macros are still defined in C++ when you load the header) should be standardized so that this could be used portably.
21:42:01 <int-e> \oren\: overloaded whitespace
21:42:33 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: you can overload the combination / *
21:43:30 <int-e> Anyway, personally I find the << >> iostream thing rather cute.
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21:44:08 <int-e> I don't like how awful formatting is, even with iomanip
21:45:11 <ybden> shachaf: void (*foo)(void) = ...; void (*bar)(void) = **********foo;
21:45:38 <shachaf> I think C++ should support arbitrary operators rather than just the built-in ones.
21:46:03 <shachaf> I was just talking about that the other day.
21:46:29 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it sort of does, but you have to use named functions for them and use ADL. Such ops use only slightly different rules than true punctuation operators.
21:46:54 <ybden> Isn't C a wonderful language
21:47:28 <shachaf> I should write my C code explicitly.
21:47:34 <int-e> . o O ( A great source of vulnerabilities )
21:47:37 <wob_jonas> One problem is that there are a few named functions (but not all) where the standard library and its standard specs is badly designed, so it's sometimes unclear how the user should specialize certain functions for which C++ provides a default impl but are often specialized.
21:47:39 <shachaf> So call every function by writing (&f)(...) instead of f(...)
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21:49:17 <shachaf> Maybe? I don't think I follow.
21:51:23 <wob_jonas> shachaf: there are certain operations that function templates often want to call generically on multiple types. there are two kinds of these: (A) ones for which there can't really be a generic implementation and have to be defined individually for each type, and (B) one for which there is a default implementation but you want to specialize them for
21:52:48 <wob_jonas> (A) include for example operator+(x,y) and operator<(x,y), but also some named functions like begin(x) and size(x) and abs(x)
21:54:28 <wob_jonas> In general, these are already handled easily in C++. You just define an overload for that function in an associated namespace, and then the rules of C++ will make everything work just fine.
21:54:48 <wob_jonas> For operators, the rules are slightly different, and you can sometimes define them as member functions, but the basic idea is the same.
21:55:59 <wob_jonas> The C++ stdlib defines operator+, operator<, size(x), abs(x) for several library types, and the latter two are also defined for some builtin types (arrays), the former two are essentially defined for some builtin types by the language (technically those are not true functions, but the difference hardly matters).
21:57:32 <wob_jonas> Category (B) is trickier. Named functions in these category include swap(x,y) and max(x,y). The library defines such generic templates for these that match most types, but you also want to specialize them for some types.
21:59:12 <wob_jonas> It appears that the proper way to call such a function is something like { using std::swap; swap(x,y); } or something like that, and that it's easy to call them wrong in which case you may get the generic implementation instead of the specialized one or get an error.
21:59:36 <wob_jonas> There's also a lot of confusion about how users should properly define specializations for these outside the stdlib.
22:00:31 <wob_jonas> What the stdlib could have done is to define two functions: one that users overload, and one that they call, and the one you call does the proper magic. That way there would be less confusion.
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22:02:38 <wob_jonas> (There operators under (B) like copy constructors and move constructors and copy assignment and move assignment and destructor and operator,(x,y). These don't have a generic stdlib impl, but the language often auto-generates them for your type, and in that case there's no problem because the language rules are done well.)
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22:32:15 -!- oerjan has set topic: imperial marmots | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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23:01:05 <HackEgo> 1/1:subtle//The 'b' sound is pronounced in 'subtle', it's just difficult to hear. \ 2600//2600 Hz is a tone made by Captain Crunch's whistle. \ yeeeeesh//See yeeeesh. \ ssss//SSSS refers to the Stand Still, Stay Silent webcomic. \ structsubural type//Something Bike is into. Not to be confused with suburban destruction.
23:02:16 -!- __kerbal__ has joined.
23:09:52 <__kerbal__> I'm thinking about converting https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IVBYW2CSDgvspkCl0nYTy-FQPUwozYdkX2H-cZGwALo/edit to wikitext as mentioned at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Getchl
23:10:06 <__kerbal__> Do I have to obtain the permission of the creator?
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23:11:21 <oerjan> helloily. i suspect yeeeeesh filled a much needed gap.
23:11:36 <HackEgo> yeeeeeeeeeesh:See yeeeeeeeeesh. \ yeeeeeeeesh:See yeeeeeeesh. \ yeeeeeeesh:See yeeeeeesh. \ yeeeeeesh:See yeeeeesh. \ yeeeesh:See yeeesh.
23:14:25 <shachaf> `` cd wisdom; /bin/ls | grep -P '^ye+sh$'
23:14:27 <HackEgo> yeeeeeeeeeesh \ yeeeeeeeesh \ yeeeeeeesh \ yeeeeeesh \ yeeeesh \ yeeesh
23:14:56 <HackEgo> 11079:2017-07-10 <boil̈y> forget yeeeeesh \ 6200:2015-11-10 <tsweẗt> le/rn yeeeeesh/See yeeeesh.
23:15:21 <HackEgo> 10346:2017-03-04 <shachäf> forget yeeeeeeeeesh \ 6228:2015-11-19 <tsweẗt> le/rn yeeeeeeeeesh/See yeeeeeeeesh.
23:15:47 <oerjan> __kerbal__: hm you _might_ say the "will later be converted to wikitext" gives implicit permission...
23:15:59 <shachaf> what happened to the much needed gap
23:16:10 <oerjan> __kerbal__: however, hppavilion[1] is right here, so just ask.
23:16:27 <oerjan> well, he might be a little bit idle.
23:16:38 * boily mapoles hppavilion[1]
23:16:46 <oerjan> shachaf: it was filled again
23:20:58 <oerjan> shachaf: fortunately there's still a gap left.
23:21:18 <HackEgo> 1/2:wisdomme//wisdomme is a PDF that may be in the topic. boily is the one who compiles it. See `? wisdom.pdf \ nit//Nits are there to be picked. \ kinder surprise//Kinder Surprise is an addictive drug marketed for children so dangerous it's banned at the federal level. \ lie bracket//Politicians try to stay within the lie bracket: Not so many lies
23:21:29 <HackEgo> 2/2: that voters cannot stand it, but not so few that they think you have nothing to give them. \ tachyon//The tachyon is rude and has no style, but gets away with it because of its speed. Taneb will invent it if he ever catches up.
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23:40:11 <__kerbal__> hppavilion[1]: Do you have any documents about WalrusOS?
23:41:06 <boily> hellorcah. wissub?
23:45:53 <__kerbal__> Also, are the tape and the accumulator separate?
23:48:28 <hppavilion[1]> __kerbal__: I don't think I have documents about WalrusOS
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23:56:19 <__kerbal__> is the tape infinite in both directions or only one?
23:57:16 <\oren\> right now I'm hoping the dev server isn't literally on fire