< 1500422437 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1500422708 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-zpgagtmlftjvzuxa QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1500422981 0 :izabera!?@? NICK :ziapia < 1500423515 0 :ziapia!?@? NICK :izabera < 1500423654 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-zokncbugalzattpe JOIN :#esoteric < 1500423775 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w < 1500423779 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1:tomfoolery//tomfoolery is always factually inaccurate. always. \ mk//Everything's better with `mk. \ Я//Я is the 9th letter of the hsilgnE alphabet \ ping//Ping is a Peking Duck H4XX0R who amuses himself by making people's IRC connections timeout. \ alogl//ALOGL is a logarithmic language. < 1500423862 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`forget tomfoolery < 1500423864 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forget what? < 1500423965 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1500424230 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloochaforget. < 1500424363 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slightly tempted to revert, although not many people use `tomfoolery
< 1500424373 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`tomfoolery wisdom < 1500424373 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom is tomfoolery < 1500424398 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonsoily < 1500424602 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonsœirjan. < 1500424951 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1500425936 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1500426927 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok boily < 1500426932 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :incoming msg < 1500427041 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :steam? < 1500427470 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? quintopia < 1500427471 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia is our resident tl;dr generator. He is flooded by thundercats and thunderdogs. He is the temporal antipode of boily despite living on the same continent. < 1500427496 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? boily < 1500427497 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​“Only sane adverb” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world boring. < 1500427538 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slwd boily//s/doctor,/doctor, a Quintopial antipodist,/ < 1500427539 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily//“Only sane adverb” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, a Quintopial antipodist, and a renowned Capitalist who helps k < 1500427572 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slwd boily//s/, apparently involving cookie dealing// < 1500427573 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily//“Only sane adverb” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, a Quintopial antipodist, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world boring. < 1500427598 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quiens! < 1500427717 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1500427849 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION lightly, acupuncturically mapoles hppavilion[1]
< 1500427876 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION roughly, stabulogically knifes boily
< 1500427965 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :eille! no knifing, unless for cooking! < 1500427971 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, I'm not edible, only sane. < 1500428441 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you safe? < 1500428450 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read in a book that "sane" means "safe". < 1500428499 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I'd guess I'm pretty much safe? < 1500428707 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1500428813 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hellais523 < 1500428826 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1500428841 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :does my short wisdom entry indicate that i am less fully vested here than others? < 1500428873 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO, the best thing to do with wisdom is ignore it < 1500428904 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would quote that if i knew how < 1500428917 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote IMO, the best thing to do with wisdom is ignore it < 1500428918 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1314) IMO, the best thing to do with wisdom is ignore it < 1500428922 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that < 1500428928 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although don't do it again now that it's been done once < 1500428938 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I didn't realise how profound it was until I saw it in quote form < 1500428940 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but you know i'll forget it by the time i think to do it again < 1500428960 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 is not a connoiseur of wisdom. < 1500428975 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no longer of PPCG, it seems. chopping off some hobbies? < 1500428978 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote how do you < 1500428978 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :485) Deewiant: How do you go through life without seeing at least one gaping anus, that's what I want to know < 1500428984 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not the one I wanted < 1500428991 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote you use < 1500428991 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :133) Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? alise: TLAAW \ 314) I figured out something about C program. If you use ? : a lot then you don't need as much parentheses but it makes it more difficult to understand. \ 495) monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to peo < 1500428997 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 495 < 1500428998 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :495) monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] @messages quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell < 1500429002 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, that's the one I wanted < 1500429014 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I really /really/ hate Stack Exchange < 1500429030 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind-of reluctantly moved there because that's where the codegolfing was < 1500429041 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty hilarious. too bad i missed that < 1500429045 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and although PPCG's community is great, Stack Exchange is sufficiently bad that I was starting to resent code golf by association < 1500429050 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( is chopping off hobbies a hydra-like activity? ) < 1500429068 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is SE bad? < 1500429072 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't enjoying myself at all, it was something of negative addiction cycle towards the end < 1500429087 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: the incentives are all wrong < 1500429109 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, the fact that answers with more votes have more visibility, thus more votes, means that getting a vote lead early is the main thing that controls how much reputation you'll get < 1500429115 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the site puts huge emphasis on reputation < 1500429124 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then when you actually get it, it actually makes the site experience worse rather than better < 1500429134 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's not the one I wanted <-- or anyone, really. < 1500429171 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 485 < 1500429173 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* Deewiant: How do you go through life without seeing at least one gaping anus, that's what I want to know < 1500429186 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i mostly ignore the parts of SE outside PPCG, where those things mostly don't apply < 1500429247 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it applies even on PPCG, because if you go to the people who can actually change the site software to, e.g., report a bug that disproportionately affects PPCG < 1500429251 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just tell you you're using the site wrong < 1500429289 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no one ever claimed SE was well-supported :P < 1500429324 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a particularly bad example of an SE bug that should be trivial to fix (given that it just involves removing a misfeature), and frequently affects newbies at PPCG: https://meta.stackexchange.com/q/276269 < 1500429376 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in general, none of the features of the Stack Exchange software actually work for their intended purpose (this is particularly noticeable at PPCG but true elsewhere, too) < 1500429390 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when a feature does turn out to be useful, it's because it's being used in a way contrary to the official recommendations < 1500429532 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have thought on many occasions that moving the PPCG community to more code golf friendly software (that still keeps what /does/ work well at SE) would improve the community < 1500429563 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1500429595 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the top two features that PPCG has and most golf sites don't have are: a) the ability to add an explanation along with the code; b) an ability to comment on other people's code < 1500429612 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way, it's actually possible to have some sort of workable communication between the people golfing and the people appreciating the results < 1500429632 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and c) the ability to redirect comment threads to group chats < 1500429639 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that the use of SE's comment system for b) is actually banned according to the comment policy but everyone ignores that < 1500429651 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: no, that does more harm than good in several ways the way it's currently implemented < 1500429678 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also requires subsequent moderator action in 90% of the cases where it's triggered, either intentionally or accidentally < 1500429696 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've only seen it done intentionally < 1500429700 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I'm having a productive conversation about improving a post, directing it to chat is probably a mistake, because you want it attached to the post (and can clean it up later) < 1500429720 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, if it's a case where one person is being unreasonable and other people are arguing with them, the conversation is probably better off not happening at all < 1500429724 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, having (hidden) attached comment threads would be a better solution < 1500429744 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i like the idea of being able to coerce people into live chats somehow < 1500429772 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the least, the ability to link to a live chat that opens in the browser < 1500429781 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, ability to link to chat is very helpful < 1500429871 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but just doing it with an actual regular link is much better than the autolink < 1500429889 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, the autolink works more than once and IIRC creates a new chat room each time < 1500429924 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we take those few features, add anagolf like automatic code testing and scoring, add en /entire forum/ for challenge sandboxing instead of one stupid overgrown thread... < 1500429940 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't know there was an autolink < 1500429949 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i said, i've only ever seen it done intentionally < 1500430073 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: it comes up every time you try to add a comment < 1500430100 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the created chat room has no owners and no way to add any, which is a problem in its own right (and there's a trivial solution, making it the OP of the relevant post, that hasn't been implemented) < 1500430413 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I have had thoughts about what an optimal golfing site would look like < 1500430799 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1500431154 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: ROGUE CHICKEN < 1500432083 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you document what the optimal golfing site would look like? < 1500432118 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( just keep it as brief as possible ) < 1500432137 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it as wordy as possible < 1500432165 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :first, and most importantly, you have some sort of system to keep out spambots < 1500432200 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally, this should be requiring actual golf entries to recently-posted problems to be submitted that are at least decently competitive < 1500432214 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as that proves that people understand what the site is about, and will also help repel human-aided spambot farms < 1500432260 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you're sure that there's no sort of automated attack going on, that then allows you to let people express opinions without worrying about the system being flooded < 1500432280 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, you let people write up golfing problems, with some sort of "automatic marking" < 1500432308 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you express the specification in the form of a set of possible inputs (which could be infinite), and a program (that isn't necessarily golfed, and in fact probably shouldn't be, i.e. it should be as clear as possible) < 1500432346 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then an answer is correct if it gives the same answers as the program (tested on some manually given test cases + some randomly selected ones); you have a recheck feature which allows people to give counterexamples to other people's programs < 1500432387 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all submissions to a problem, and all problems, should be categorisable with tags, and people should be able to tag each other's answers < 1500432414 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people should be able to attach commentary to problems and submissions (whether it's explanations, feedback, or something else; keep it decently freeform) < 1500433501 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there should be some way to improve problems after they're posted, perhaps by marking the problem as provisional for a set period, and allowing wiki-style edits to it (which invalidate any answers that violate the new spec) < 1500433617 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, when I left PPCG, I was sent a number of messages by Stack Exchange staff that were worded to look like they were concerned about my reasons for leaving, but which (from the way they were worded) were clearly written without actually having read my stated reasons < 1500433638 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :youch < 1500433646 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm assuming they were just boilerplate misleadingly written to imply that they cared about what people thought about the site < 1500433926 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, the actual PPCG community listened to my concerns (and largely agreed with them), but I think they're powerless to fix the fundamental issues with the site software < 1500434046 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, one other thing is related to I/O; I think each challenge would specify the inputs and outputs using a well-known format (probably JSON), but each language would have a "default boilerplate" that went and decoded/encoded the JSON into whatever form was most convenient for the language, and that doesn't count against the byte count < 1500434069 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in most cases, what you'd actually submit would be a function body, or the language's closest equivalent to that < 1500434148 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would end all the arguments that you get in individual questions about which I/O formats are acceptable, and change them into a more centralised question about which I/O formats are most suitable for each given language < 1500434154 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which only has to be argued once per language, not once per challenge < 1500434232 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, for non-golf challenges, you should also have the option of specifying a scoring function < 1500434255 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another useful feature (which no golfing site has yet that I'm aware of) would be an auto-encoding feature, where you enter your program in whatever encoding is most convenient for working on the program < 1500434266 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the site automatically works out the best possible encoding of that that works in the language < 1500434293 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, you could type Jelly using Unicode (which is normally easier), but have that automatically transcoded to Jelly's character set (which is more compact in terms of the number of octets needed) < 1500434531 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something I'm torn on is efficiency: should we require the answers to run within, say, a factor of 10 of the model answer? one approach I see is separate leaderboards for answers that do and answers that don't < 1500434566 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning that there are two golf competitions at once (the shortest answer, and the shortest answer that uses an algorithm that isn't considerably slower than that of the model answer) < 1500434944 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to dispute a tag on someone's answer? < 1500435079 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be < 1500435091 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a system in mind where tags are voted up and down, but with hysteresis < 1500435113 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like "a score of +3 for a tag adds it, a score of -3 removes it, votes change the score by 1 point, the OP sets the original status" < 1500435193 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1500435234 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you express the infinite set of inputs? < 1500435298 0 :kmc_!~keegan@ec2-52-10-77-75.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1500435650 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1500435685 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1500435953 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1500436329 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1500438652 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-60-126.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1500438750 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-114-251.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1500439298 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1500439307 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1500439765 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1500440107 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1500441779 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know what killer feature the stackexchange site has over yours < 1500441782 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :network effect < 1500441789 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :qed < 1500441849 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? qed < 1500441850 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :qed? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1500441855 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp qed < 1500441863 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1500441865 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1500441871 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randquote Jafet < 1500441871 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :801) I wonder if Red Alert 4 will use MMIX < 1500441917 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it didn't, sadly) < 1500441919 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`3 randquote Jafet < 1500441920 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1:801) I wonder if Red Alert 4 will use MMIX \ 1020) Is there a debian package for making lousy debian forks \ 1243) Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem." < 1500441923 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Red ALert 4 exists? < 1500441949 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any good RTS games lately? < 1500442017 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :does eu4 qualify as an rts? < 1500442024 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :“rtwps” < 1500442116 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know eu4. What is wps? < 1500442398 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :“well played sir”; wp is “with pause” though < 1500442411 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be JOIN :#esoteric < 1500442561 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I don't know how the pausing works in multiplayer < 1500444228 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1500444541 0 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1500445266 0 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1500445627 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1500446128 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@24.7.67.0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1500446178 0 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1500446296 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: most real-time strategy games are with-pause in single player but not multiplayer < 1500446696 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, with-pause usually implies that you can perform game actions during the pause < 1500446718 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :(other than “save”, “load”, and “flee to windows“) < 1500446836 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, videos of eu4 show that pausing in multiplayer is possible < 1500447615 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1500447708 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Ly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52463&oldid=52459 5* 03LyricLy 5* (+159) 10 < 1500447815 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Ly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52464&oldid=52463 5* 03LyricLy 5* (+148) 10 < 1500447827 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Ly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52465&oldid=52464 5* 03LyricLy 5* (+8) 10 < 1500448790 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: I'm aware < 1500448797 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1500448821 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w < 1500448825 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:comonad//Comonads are just monads in the dual category. They are hard to get into. \ third law of thermodynamics//The third law of thermodynamics says that Taneb cannot reach absolute zero. \ antarctica//There's no such country as Antarctica. \ thyme//Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano. \ gaszpacho//gaszpacho is a polish < 1500448827 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n < 1500448828 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2:soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days < 1500448845 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are comonads really that hard to get into? < 1500448858 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was into comonads before they were ol. < 1500449956 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1500450627 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that joke will ever get old < 1500451539 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1500451853 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9 < 1500451870 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1500452471 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@134.58.253.56 JOIN :#esoteric < 1500453246 0 :augur!~augur@73.189.251.68 JOIN :#esoteric < 1500453526 0 :augur!~augur@73.189.251.68 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1500454909 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1500455638 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1500459026 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-5-123.w92-131.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1500459125 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-60-126.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1500459967 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :making it is easy, like monoids < 1500460141 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? monoids < 1500460142 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monoids are just categories with single objects. < 1500460182 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the single objects / all the single objects < 1500460196 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of joke is like comonoids? < 1500462359 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:98ea:f8dc:27b7:a7ae PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: There's usually only one joke of that sort up to isomorphism anyway, so nobody makes it. < 1500462475 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the channel should publish a coffee-table joke book < 1500462549 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because even though that joke was very simple, it made me laugh < 1500462861 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: There's only one complete ordered field up to isomorphism, but people keep making it. < 1500462879 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Challenger514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52466&oldid=52018 5* 03Challenger5 5* (+30) 10 < 1500462904 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Challenger514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52467&oldid=52466 5* 03Challenger5 5* (+1) 10 < 1500463468 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1500464051 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1500464890 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1500466011 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1500466050 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1500467330 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: PORE CHICKEN < 1500471971 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1500472831 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1500475135 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1500476333 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-178-004-083-030.178.004.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: Terminated < 1500476457 0 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-004-083-030.178.004.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: thunderstorm < 1500477872 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-80-102.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1500477988 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-5-123.w92-131.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1500479765 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1500479796 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 JOIN :#esoteric < 1500479836 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could someone please point me to that article about how to achieve mutable state during compile time in C++ by using friend function declarations in template class definition bodies? < 1500479851 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to use it for eso purposes only, not for production stuff, I swear < 1500480007 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can find a lot of references to that stuff, but not the original article that explains the trick. < 1500480014 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well, I might be able to use those derivatives. < 1500480439 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :found it: https://web.archive.org/web/20161217033223/http://b.atch.se/posts/non-constant-constant-expressions/ < 1500480858 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to find a use, you mean? < 1500480944 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I have a potential eso-use already (which might or might not actually work, I have to understand more about C++ to figure out), I'm trying to learn how the technique works now < 1500480979 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also apparently there are followup blog posts, but they're hard to find, since I can access the original blog post only through archive.com too < 1500481061 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://web.archive.org/web/20161217232535/http://b.atch.se/posts/constexpr-counter/ is the second part I beleive < 1500481064 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure if there's a third part < 1500481097 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://web.archive.org/web/20161217033218/http://b.atch.se:80/posts/constexpr-meta-container/ is the third one < 1500481168 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it says "The upcoming post, in this series, will talk about other techniques [... than] the friend-injection technique [...], how the Standard could potentially make the techniques (plural) ill-formed, and the implications of such potential outcome." < 1500481649 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I think I need only a little crumb of that technique < 1500481651 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all of it < 1500482263 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh damn, I think this won't work < 1500482650 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-132-169.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1500482737 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-80-102.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1500483014 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-132-169.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey hey < 1500483481 0 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-004-083-030.178.004.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1500483797 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-178-004-083-030.178.004.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1500483887 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1500484252 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@134.58.253.56 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1500484271 0 :\a\a\a!~ai@96.44.147.131 JOIN :#esoteric < 1500484745 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got paid $20 to talk about fanfiction forums for an hour < 1500484838 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9 < 1500484853 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1500485168 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9 < 1500485182 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1500485323 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1500486346 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Mutable compile-time state in C++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52468 5* 03B jonas 5* (+1139) 10Created page with "In C++, constexpr functions are supposed to be pure functions in the Haskell sense: deterministic (the return value is a mathematical function of the arguments) and without si..." < 1500486719 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Mutable compile-time state in C++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52469&oldid=52468 5* 03B jonas 5* (+50) 10 < 1500487305 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1500488422 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :“Disclaimer: The technique described in this post is primarily meant as "just another clever hack, diving into the dark corners of C++".” — isn't this half of what c++ is < 1500488482 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are in a maze of dark little corners, all different. < 1500488504 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sort of architectural style maximizes corners? < 1500488504 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :if wg21 wasn't going to nuke it, I could have seen meta_list.hpp coming to your local boost library this autumn < 1500488653 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard that the hilbert hotel has lots of corners, despite fitting snugly in a unit square < 1500488670 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :that must be how they get an infinite number of rooms in < 1500488683 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it had infinite volume? < 1500488736 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :might have been a four-dimensional square < 1500489082 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1500489581 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? square < 1500489582 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :square? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1500489582 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cube < 1500489583 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cubes come in all sizes, colors, and materials, but only one shape. The companion cube does not speak, however. < 1500489585 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tesserract < 1500489586 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tesserract? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1500489587 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tesseract < 1500489588 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tesseract? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1500489593 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tessellation < 1500489594 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tessellation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1500489594 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tesselation < 1500489595 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tesselation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1500490153 0 :cim4!~cim4@host242-43-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1500490558 0 :sleffy!sleffy@nat/google/x-orcknhcnrqfsttbb JOIN :#esoteric < 1500490597 0 :cim4!~cim4@host242-43-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it PART #esoteric :"Leaving..." < 1500490699 0 :impomatic!~digital_w@host86-169-220-251.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1500491228 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1500491278 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1500491655 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hydrogenn 5* 10New user account < 1500491674 0 :sleffy!sleffy@nat/google/x-orcknhcnrqfsttbb QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1500491981 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-51-200.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1500491994 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52470&oldid=52460 5* 03Hydrogenn 5* (+181) 10Added my signature. < 1500492081 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-132-169.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1500492318 0 :sleffy!sleffy@nat/google/x-sqdketzmkokwxrzt JOIN :#esoteric < 1500492651 0 :u_nuSLASHkm8!~111111111@77.234.42.172 JOIN :#esoteric < 1500492780 0 :u_nuSLASHkm8!~111111111@77.234.42.172 PART #esoteric : < 1500493373 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1500494129 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-78-196.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1500494142 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote elation < 1500494159 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-51-200.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1500494184 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :504) elliott: mr president, commissioner, i fully accept that description when it comes to human rights. yes, with an average fat content of chocolate, and we are using double standards! we all know that under present legislation and also in relation to standardization bodies. if i do not want. < 1500494399 0 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1500494463 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp elation < 1500494470 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :frenemy:Frenemy is the relationship between Kirby and king Dee Dee. \ schaf:"Schaf" is german for "sheep". There is absolutely no relation to shachaf. \ vi:vi is in a relationship with emacs. < 1500494892 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1500495270 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they frenemies? < 1500495289 0 :sleffy!sleffy@nat/google/x-sqdketzmkokwxrzt QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1500495619 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: This file includes at least one deprecated or antiquated header which may be removed without further notice at a future date. Please use a non-deprecated interface with equivalent functionality instead. For a listing of replacement headers and interfaces, consult the file backward_warning.h. To disable this warning use -Wno-deprecated. < 1500495678 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how in the fuk is a hash map deprecated < 1500495703 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07BitP14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52471 5* 03Hydrogenn 5* (+4813) 10Added BitP < 1500495827 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : is deprecated and will be REMOVED. Please use < 1500495900 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAH, they just renamed it HWY! < 1500495970 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-122-90.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1500495993 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it doesn't have to be a hash then why does unordered_map still have an hash_function () method in it!?!?!? < 1500496015 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite; from what I can see, hash_map was never standard C++ < 1500496027 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not compromise on unordered_hash_map < 1500496030 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07BitP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52472&oldid=52471 5* 03Hydrogenn 5* (+255) 10 < 1500496045 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unordered_map *is* a hashtable, by its description < 1500496051 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a more intuitive and informative name < 1500496055 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1500496060 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-78-196.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1500496070 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a STUPID name made by AHOLES < 1500496103 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok put it in the AHOLES namespace < 1500496132 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07BitP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52473&oldid=52472 5* 03Hydrogenn 5* (-1) 10Fixed the table < 1500496165 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07BitP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52474&oldid=52473 5* 03Hydrogenn 5* (+77) 10 < 1500496172 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably what happened was that the C++ standards committee didn't like a few aspects of MS's implementation and then chose a different name so that code wouldn't just break. < 1500496189 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/implementation/interface/ < 1500496225 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ass_map < 1500496240 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better < 1500496961 0 :tinyurl_comSLASH!~ycpm5ry3@199.189.106.247 JOIN :#esoteric < 1500497049 0 :tinyurl_comSLASH!~ycpm5ry3@199.189.106.247 PART #esoteric : < 1500497217 0 :impomatic!~digital_w@host86-169-220-251.range86-169.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... how fast would a typical bit-by-bit square root algorithm be in big-O? Like this https://pastebin.com/22xXieff < 1500497251 0 :impomatic!~digital_w@host86-169-220-251.range86-169.btcentralplus.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :O(n) I assume, because the number of iterations is proportional to the number of bits? < 1500497422 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try to write an implementation for the esolang I'm making < 1500497429 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then some example programs < 1500498487 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1500499533 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1500499750 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1500500068 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-122-90.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ten years ago I did a python interpreter for one of my esolang < 1500500072 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-122-90.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to rewrite it < 1500500080 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-122-90.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really wish I left comments and used better variables < 1500500396 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcuuqhvhyr8nha.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1500500453 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be QUIT :Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel < 1500500800 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloily? < 1500502072 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1500502148 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w < 1500502152 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:advertisement//Advertisement starts: have you heard about this hip and froopy 'net place called #esoteric? It is on freenode. Brought to you by The Board of Timeskewed Advertiesements. \ cloud//The cloud is a server Blackhat guy runs, connected to the internet through a cable modem. There's a lot of caching. Cloud is also the shape of clouds. \ < 1500502154 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n < 1500502155 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2: phở//Phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam. \ java//Java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures. \ chthonic//Chthonic lithping can be vethy dithturbing to lithten to. < 1500502173 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits advertisement < 1500502179 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zarutiän < 1500502210 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits java < 1500502216 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjän coppr̈o < 1500502272 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dowg java < 1500502279 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :8474:2016-06-13 sled wisdom/java//s/./J/;s/$/./ \ 5604:2015-06-17 learn java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures < 1500502316 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: Which misfeatures does Java have? < 1500502333 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: context? < 1500502366 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know. < 1500502370 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does alercah have to do with coppro, hmm. < 1500502400 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: context? < 1500502416 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: last 5 lines < 1500502422 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka context. < 1500502424 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. < 1500502429 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sighs.
< 1500502437 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I missed the quote line < 1500502460 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :well since you asked < 1500502466 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :- everything needs to be in a class < 1500502471 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :- checked exceptions < 1500502479 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :- built by sun < 1500502501 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :- covariant mutable arrays < 1500502502 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :- in your water < 1500502504 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: how about the limitation of string constants to 64k bytes UTF-8..., objects to 64k methods, methods to 64kb bytecode... < 1500502514 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://slbkbs.org/fluids.jpg < 1500502541 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Java string constants are in UTF-8? I thought everything was UTF-16. < 1500502586 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, they're UTF-8 < 1500502630 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 64kb bytecode thing may seem harmless until you realize that when you declare a large constant array, you actually get a final array variable plus bytecode that fills in the elements one by one. < 1500502689 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And none of this will ever change because that would break all "bytecode enhancers" in existence :P < 1500502718 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... in a way... custom classloaders are a misfeature because they've been abused quite terribly. < 1500502864 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I have not seriously touched Java in the last 20 years (though I have seen glimpses of language improvements like generics and other additions like enums) ... I would complain about the awful standard library but this may have improved. < 1500502886 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, 20 is a bit too high, make that 18 < 1500502900 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1500502904 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :type erasure in generics is another great one < 1500502920 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh misfeature, yes it is... < 1500502956 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...getting run-time type checks for something that the compiler *should* have checked already. < 1500502969 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :what run-time type checks? < 1500502978 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh when you extract things, yes < 1500502989 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :when a generic container is compiled you get a compiler of obects < 1500503057 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's no way type safety can be ensured on the bytecode level despite the compiler having checked the types... so... there still has to be a runtime check. < 1500503071 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1500503962 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1500504156 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 JOIN :#esoteric < 1500504165 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to talk about theories, doctrines, and logics. < 1500504203 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The motivating example here is that the concept of a finite limit category is "self-supporting", in a particular way. < 1500504215 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically... < 1500504237 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The axioms defining the concept "finite limit category" are also a presentation of a particular finite limit category. < 1500504266 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is not true of, say, the concept of a group. < 1500504283 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The axioms defining the concept "group" are a presentation of a finite product category, but they are not a presentation of a group. < 1500504408 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I'm going to use the word "variety" to mean "a type of algebraic structure". So, for example, groups are a variety, categories are a variety, FLCs are a variety. < 1500504469 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I'm going to call that a "theory" instead. Sorry for the bait-and-switch. < 1500504476 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Groups are a theory, categories are a theory, FLCs are a theory. < 1500504514 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each theory has a corresponding concept of a "presentation": groups have presentations, categories have presentations, FLCs have presentations, blah blah blah. < 1500504527 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A presentation is a collection of generators. < 1500504648 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, each theory has a collection of axioms. The axioms, I guess, have some influence over what the presentations can look like. < 1500504667 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't take a presentation of a category and treat it as being a presentation of a group. < 1500504675 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then, we have the kicker... < 1500504689 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theories are presentations, and their axioms are their generators. < 1500504708 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1500504714 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any presentation, of course, belongs to another theory. < 1500504724 0 :impomatic!~digital_w@host86-169-220-251.range86-169.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1500504763 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, the theory of groups is a presentation belonging to the theory of FPCs. < 1500504778 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The theory of FPCs is a presentation belonging to the theory of FLCs. The theory of FLCs is a presentation belonging to the theory of FLCs. < 1500504791 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And we've found a fixed point. :D < 1500504872 0 :wob_jonas!b03f19ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.171 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1500504899 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :On nLab, they call the "theory of a theory" a doctrine. < 1500504916 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long can I keep the monologue going before someone else speaks? :D < 1500504988 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcuuqhvhyr8nha.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1500505598 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now... < 1500505605 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me compare the theory of groups to the theory of real numbers. < 1500505645 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The theory of groups has axioms such as "there exists an 'identity' element e" and "the operation is associative". < 1500505695 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :These axioms are the generators of a finite product category. < 1500505737 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The theory of real numbers has axioms such as "every non-empty, bounded set of numbers has a least upper bound". < 1500505747 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :These axioms are axioms of second-order logic. < 1500505906 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The theory of groups has an interesting property. Namely, every presentation satisfying the theory of groups (every group presentation) has models. < 1500505919 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, every group presentation defines one particular model. < 1500505970 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which we just call the group presented by that presentation. < 1500506001 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not the *only* model consistent with the presentation, though. < 1500506046 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What it is, is... let me think, here. < 1500506070 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a category of groups (aka the category of models of the theory of groups). < 1500506073 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1500506134 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose I have some particular group presentation, P. < 1500506153 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there's also a category of groups-which-are-consistent-with-P. < 1500506385 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The special property, I think, is that the category of groups-consistent-with-P is always a coslice category of the category of groups. < 1500506517 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the base object of this category is the "group presented by P". < 1500506565 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, when I said "theory of real numbers", I really should have said "theory of real number systems", because its models are real number systems, not individual real numbers. < 1500506669 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The theory of real number systems does *not* have that neat little property where every presentation defines a coslice category of models. < 1500506706 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, although there are lots of different groups, I think there's generally considered to be only *one* model of the theory of real number systems. < 1500506711 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Namely: the real numbers. < 1500507035 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1500507388 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1500507391 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, we all know what a "presentation of a group" is. < 1500507422 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric < 1500507453 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a thing declaring the existence of various elements, and equations that hold between them. < 1500507460 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is a "presentation of a real number system"? < 1500507496 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a thing declaring the existence of various numbers, and...? < 1500507615 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I guess the words "of a" are no longer relevant here, since a presentation no longer defines a real number system. < 1500507625 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's call it a... "presentation for real number systems" instead? < 1500507646 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is definitely a presentation for real number systems: "numbers x, y, z such that x + y = z." < 1500507653 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That presentation has infinitely many models. < 1500507669 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is another one: "a number x such that x + x = x * x." That one has exactly 2 models. < 1500507683 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And another one: "a number i such that i * i = -1." That one has no models. < 1500507740 0 :MrBusiness!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:1c14:5a96:6956:b3c9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1500507811 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1500507829 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about "a number x such that x = pi"? Can you use pi in a presentation for real number systems? < 1500508189 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presentations for a theory are always extensions of the theory, but the converse isn't true. < 1500508307 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can extend the axioms for a group by saying that there exists an element x. This extension is also a presentation, and it presents the infinite cyclic group. < 1500508323 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The trivial extension, which adds no axioms, is also a presentation. It presents the trivial group. < 1500508348 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also extend the axioms for a group by saying that the operation is commutative. This extension is not a presentation. < 1500508393 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmmmm. I've got some gears turning, here. < 1500508476 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider the category of "finite limit theories" (finitely generated finite limit categories, seen as "theories"). < 1500508526 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theories are objects in this category. < 1500508569 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presentations for theories are *also* objects in this category... but of a very constrained type. < 1500508622 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I have a presentation for a theory T, then it is necessary (but not sufficient) that there exists another theory P and an "inclusion" arrow T -> P. < 1500508638 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :T is the original theory; P is the original theory plus all of the generators in the presentation. < 1500508736 0 :tswett!~tswett@167.73.32.65 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every theory has a category of models; let's call it Mod(T).